WEBVTT

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All right, quick warning before we jump in. There's

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a little bit of sexual and anatomical language

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ahead. And yeah, we know. We swear quite a bit

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on this show. And maybe sometimes we can be a

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little politically incorrect. But this one's

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a little different. We're talking about toxic

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masculinity, and you can't really unpack that

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without getting into, well, body parts and bad

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behavior. So if that makes you squirm, fair enough,

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we understand. But honestly, that's kind of the

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point. So don't say you weren't warned. Welcome

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to weird, wicked, and wild. All right, let's

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get at her. All right, let's do it. Hey, everybody.

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Let's go ahead and start this thing off with

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a question. So, Jimmy. Yeah. When someone describes

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the quality of a real man, air quotes, real man,

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what comes to mind? My childhood as with so many

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other things that we talk about on this show

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Yeah The whole idea of real men. Don't cry real

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men. Don't show their feelings Yeah, suck it

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up buttercup. You know, we've talked about some

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of those things before and they all line up exactly

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with that idea of real man or Tough guy or whatever.

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Yeah, the whole machismo thing, you know like

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Don't not having feelings. It's like being embarrassed

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of almost having feelings and or showing your

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emotions in any way, shape or form. You know,

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any of those things. And I think, you know, what

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was his interesting to me now, you know, as an

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adult man, I'm a man. But like, OK, so who's

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in charge of these rules? You know, because like,

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let's be honest. Like we saw a stereotype and

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a kind of an archetype of what quote unquote

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man was and I mean and You know that was different

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than what like probably what our parents saw

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as quote unquote real man but even now we've

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got this whole idea of like alpha male so like

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Who's in charge of these rules? It's an interesting

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question because that's Well, so I have a colleague

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and dear friend, Dr. camper Floyd, he's a philosopher,

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listeners, you will get to know his name, probably

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a lot of my intellectual development over the

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last several years has come in conversations

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with camper. So I talked to him about some of

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the things we're doing here on the podcast, maybe

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we'll even get them on the show one day, someday,

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hopefully. He says this kind of language. real

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man or you know, be a be a man or whatever that

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means. He says this is language that assumes

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and reinforces sex and gender identification

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and the binary system between that is sort of

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kind of existed forever. And he suggested these

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are ultimately harmful to everybody, including

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men, real men or otherwise. who are being denied

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by these phrases, the freedom to experience the

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full range of their own humanity, right? And

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so if even men are being denied this freedom

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to experience that full range, you can imagine

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then what this means for men who are part of

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the LGBTQ plus community, what this means for

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women, what this means for all kinds of ideologies

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and things. And again, camper's a philosopher.

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So he thinks about these things in ways that

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I don't necessarily think about them, at least

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not initially. But when he said that as like,

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oh, wait, that. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Real man. That's

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that's harmful language, ultimately. Well, yeah.

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And I think that it's what has kind of led to

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what we're seeing in today's modern world. with

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I think the, the resurgence, it feels like of,

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um, discrimination against, you know, LGBTQ T

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plus. I think I got two T's in there. But, you

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know, but really, I mean, if we, I mean, I, I,

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cause I mean, really in my mind, I think about

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like the trans community and really they seem

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to be coming under a lot of fire. I mean, the

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whole, you know, the whole community has, but

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those particularly But the funny thing, and I

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mean, you know, not to, you know, not to get

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too down, too far down the rabbit hole. Cause

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I'm sure we'll dive into this, but it does seem

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to be that there is a generation. I think part

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of ours and I think maybe a little bit above

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ours that hidden the hidden the shadows and in

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the closet, if you will. Um, and. You know, it

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talks about not not experience the full range

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of their humanity. I mean that really just strikes

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a Nerve with me because I think that a lot of

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men who live under the facade of quote -unquote

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real man, you know are Doing it to kind of hide

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how they really feel sure Sure. We always talk

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about the overcompensation and those things,

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guys with big trucks and blah, but he blah, blah.

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Yeah. We talk about all these things as a joke,

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you know, but like, I think there's a lot of

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truth in that. And I mean, you know, when, when

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grinder crashes every single time, you know,

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the RNC gets in town. I mean, like they're, they're

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hiding something. Yeah. for the benefit of somebody

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else. And listen, uh, I've been guilty of this,

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right? I, you know, I grew up when I was younger,

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uh, to use more harmful language. I was a quote

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unquote mama's boy, right? But I didn't want

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to let people know that that seemed like I was

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weak and emotional. And so I put on these fronts,

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especially in my teenage years of being kind

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of this, you know, hard ass, which I don't think

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I've ever truly been a violent or cruel person.

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I tried to put on those airs to hide that I was

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really kind of a, you know, emotional, tender,

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sensitive, empath kind of a person. I didn't

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want people to know that because I was afraid

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of what they would think of me. Right. Right.

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I mean, you know, the funny thing is like, you

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know, you know, we're sharing this with the audience,

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but I mean, I was there, I was there in real

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time. You know, yes. We both did the same thing.

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We both put on a, an air of toughness. I mean,

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you know, Jimmy, you were a little bit more or

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rather less violent than myself because I fought

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all the time. I mean, I was nonstop like fisticuffs.

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I mean, it didn't take much for me to jump on

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or like, you know, to set it off. I mean, in

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like a lot of it was me. Absolutely. Like going

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through the trauma of someone who Felt very deeply

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felt felt bigly, you know felt big about things,

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you know had big emotions, you know, but was

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told to That that's not or like let me you know

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that the whole phrase I'm gonna give you something

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to cry about like right. Oh god that one I don't

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have that tattooed on me somewhere Something

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but I mean like, you know, I've just yeah, I

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mean as a child, I mean we were kind of train

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conditioned, if you will, to, to not feel emotions,

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to not like express emotions even. And I mean,

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I know for me that really came out in my teenage

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years. Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, I, you know,

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I was there in real time and I remember some

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of these, you know, um, knowing a little bit

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more about what you were hiding, but of course,

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even there you were hiding it from me too, sometimes.

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So it's like, Oh yeah. But you know, here, this

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is what this is exactly what campus suggests,

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you know, this limiting of our full range of

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humanity. And that's what we're going to focus

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really on today in this episode is men's humanity,

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we decided to keep the focus on this episode

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on men as much as possible, because those are

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the experiences that we have had, right? So we

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have traveled too far down the rabbit hole of

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the ways that men treat women, though some of

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that's definitely going to come into the conversation

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organically. We assume that everything we discussed

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today implies patriarchal perceptions of and

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actions toward women. So we're going to not really

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get too much into the weeds with that because

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we haven't experienced that firsthand. And we're

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trying to atone for anything that we may have

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done in our lives that might have been complicit

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in that. So. Without further ado, from two cishet

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white guys in traditional marriages to all of

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you. Yes. The topic of machismo or toxic masculinity

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and sexual purity, which Umberto Eco posits as

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his 12th feature of Ur -Fascism. And so hearing

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from Eco as always. Since both permanent war

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and heroism are difficult games to play, the

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Ur -Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual

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matters. This is the origin of machismo, which

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implies both disdain for women and intolerance

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and condemnation of non -standard sexual habits

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from chastity to homosexuality. Since even sex

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is a difficult game to play. The fascist hero

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tends to play with weapons. Doing so becomes

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an airsats phallic exercise. All right. Okay.

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Okay. Kudos to echo. He was very succinct with

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this one, um, as compared to some of his others.

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But I mean, that little dig at the end, I mean,

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come on, dude, that's chef kiss right there.

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I mean, he's definitely calling it out. I mean,

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as, as he is seeing it, and I think it's, is

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he saw it then, and we can see it now is that,

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you know, the idea of being a man is this whole

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idea of establishing superiority. you know, um,

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as a gender, you know, although he doesn't really

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get into that, but I mean, when he's talking

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about, you know, the disdain for women and then

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the intolerance for, uh, you know, and condemnation

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of, you know, non standard sexual habits, like

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the deviance, I mean, we have seen that time

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and time and time again. And it's like, you know,

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I mean, clearly he saw in his lifetime, you know,

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we've seen it in our lifetime. And then like,

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we think we have gotten over that. We think we've

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become more, um, I guess tolerant as a society,

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but then, then all of a sudden now, you know,

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same, same sex marriage is, is on the table potentially

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as you know, being outlawed, you know, or at

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least you're hearing rumor and murmurs of that,

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you know, because they were able to, you know,

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do away with, you know, um, uh, Yes. Thank you.

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The, you know, Roe v Wade and taking away the,

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you know, kind of the body, the bodily autonomy

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from, from women, which I mean, goes right into

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this whole idea of toxic masculinity. It's like,

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you know, in sexual purity, because it's like

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we men, cause it's sadly, mostly men, you know,

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are legislating, you know, what a woman should

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be able to do and not to do with her body. And

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I mean, you know, that right there, it goes to

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the whole patriarchal piece that we, you know,

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Jimmy spoke about earlier, but I mean, you know,

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it's this whole idea of men knows best, like,

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and it's, and it's absolutely crazy. And I think

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that, you know, echo really tapped into that

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with what, you know, with his, his comments here.

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And I mean, it begs the question, you know, You

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know, masculinity isn't really about biology,

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but if that's the case, what is it really about?

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Oh, big question. Um, and this is where we start

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to get into, uh, and we'll finish out the season

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really with this very performative public aspect

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of or fascism, right? Um, Not action for action

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sake, which is something a little bit different,

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although that is also performative in a lot of

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aspects, but this time we're really putting on

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a show, a stage spectacle. Masculinity in these

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contexts, again, not about what we have between

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our legs, but about the right performance and

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the approval of other men, right? It's a role

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that we have to play, we as men have to play

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all the time. Never off the clock and if the

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performance isn't believable enough to the quote

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-unquote right people Then we could lose our

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claim to manhood. So I pull it's like we're gonna

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pull their man card Well, exactly right. I mean,

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you know, it's funny cuz it's like, you know,

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we speak about this so intellectually We approach

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these things from an intellectual standpoint

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and from a historical perspective to kind of

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shed light on where we are today in a modern

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world. But I mean, there you go right there.

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Right. I mean, talking about the performative

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nature of the, the, of the man of toxic masculinity

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really is what it boils down to. And I mean,

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the, the thing that immediately as I was, you

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know, hearing you kind of explain this is that,

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you know, gym culture and how these guys go to

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the gym and I mean, nothing against that. I think,

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you know, having a healthy lifestyle is amazing.

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You know, um, But you know, they go and they

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take all these pictures and they post them up

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there. And it's like, they, you, you thought

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I thought, you know, it was always to attract,

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you know, women and things, but no, they're looking

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for approval from other guys. It'd be like, yo,

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you're swollen and all of that. Um, but then

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it's like, you know, it's, it's talking about,

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you know, potentially if you don't do this, if

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you don't engage in this performative, you know,

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activities or this, you know, this play, if you

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will. If you don't cause play as a man, you know,

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like they're going to pull your man card, you

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know? And it's like, we literally heard that

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growing, like, you know, in our time of being

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like, if you were too sensitive or if like you

00:14:44.580 --> 00:14:47.720
showed interest in a girl or, or whatever, like,

00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:50.019
Oh bro, we're going to pull your man card. Like,

00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.509
right. Masculinity, again, not being about biology,

00:14:54.570 --> 00:14:57.590
not being about our anatomy, it's not an essence.

00:14:57.629 --> 00:15:00.470
It's not part of who we are. It's something some

00:15:00.470 --> 00:15:04.730
dudes have, and others don't, right? Masculinity

00:15:04.730 --> 00:15:06.669
isn't something men have, it's something men

00:15:06.669 --> 00:15:10.049
do. It's something men do. And again, like you

00:15:10.049 --> 00:15:14.070
said, gym culture, such a salient example because,

00:15:14.090 --> 00:15:17.289
you know, in the days that I was more actively

00:15:17.289 --> 00:15:21.940
going to the gym, not today, You know, I would

00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:23.519
see these guys in the mirrors and be like, you

00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:24.980
know, y 'all are taking up a lot of room and

00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:26.320
taking up a lot of time. There's other people

00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.539
who want to use these machines and the girls

00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:30.779
are paying you no mind. Just like you said, not

00:15:30.779 --> 00:15:32.379
about the girls. It's about the other dudes.

00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:35.700
It's about Instagram and people commenting on

00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:39.840
photos. It's all performative. It requires recognition

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.100
and approval again, mostly by other men and it's

00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:47.330
fragile. and can be revoked right so it requires

00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:51.350
consistent reaffirmation via appropriate scripts

00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:54.149
props everything from clothing to the way we

00:15:54.149 --> 00:15:56.929
worship to the way we walk down the street right

00:15:56.929 --> 00:16:00.809
has little to do with being anatomically male

00:16:00.809 --> 00:16:04.730
but let's be honest the anatomy is always going

00:16:04.730 --> 00:16:06.490
to come into the picture in one way or another

00:16:06.490 --> 00:16:11.019
right So I mean, we can see this everywhere.

00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.960
Look, it's not just gym culture, although it's

00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.480
a great example. And it's not always just people

00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:22.120
being sort of the neanderthalic kind of, you

00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.820
know, it's sometimes just the symbols of like

00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:29.159
proper attire. people who work in business wearing

00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.700
sharp, you know, nicely cut suits, right? Military

00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:35.879
and law enforcement with their uniforms, athletes

00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:39.120
with athletic wear, or even just regular guys

00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.539
who put on jerseys on Sundays because they're

00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:43.320
going to go for their team. And all of this is

00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.480
about male bonding and all that kind of stuff,

00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.740
right? Of course, they all have their props.

00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:53.080
Guns come into it big time. The more guns you

00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:56.399
have, the more cajones you have or what have

00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.960
you. Cars, right? Everything from the muscle

00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:03.960
cars of the 1960s and 70s to the great big all

00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.599
black pickup trucks with the blacked out tinted

00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:11.150
windows. Beards? And I'm saying this as somebody

00:17:11.150 --> 00:17:13.390
who has sported a beard regularly for the last

00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.690
decade, um, beards often kind of get pulled into

00:17:16.690 --> 00:17:20.269
this symbol of, of a masculine person and titles.

00:17:20.490 --> 00:17:23.690
Think about what it means for some men to be

00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:29.069
a CEO or to be hell, even a police officer or,

00:17:29.069 --> 00:17:32.089
or, um, you know, priest, whatever it happens

00:17:32.089 --> 00:17:35.549
to be this idea that this is the man's world

00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:39.170
and we've got to have these props in order to

00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:42.089
show other men that we are the real deal. And

00:17:42.089 --> 00:17:43.910
of course all of this comes with some learned

00:17:43.910 --> 00:17:47.210
activity too. Oh yeah. We're going to learn and

00:17:47.210 --> 00:17:51.160
teach how to walk. how to speak, how to dress,

00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:55.700
how to fight, how to fuck. Everything is going

00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:58.660
to be learned, taught by men to other men. If

00:17:58.660 --> 00:18:00.960
you think back to our conversations about Spartans,

00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.099
right? This is sort of what this sounds like.

00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.400
Yeah. Although modern masculine guys would look

00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.019
back at the Spartans and be like, Oh, what was

00:18:08.019 --> 00:18:10.720
wrong with them? Right. It's always taught by

00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.160
men to other men. It's always under evaluation.

00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.779
And as you said, messing up that leads to taking

00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:22.470
the man card away. Yeah. You know? Let's unpack

00:18:22.470 --> 00:18:26.170
that for just a second. Is there any other thing

00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:30.109
in the world that we are born with that can be

00:18:30.109 --> 00:18:32.190
taken away like you're taking away a driver's

00:18:32.190 --> 00:18:35.069
license? Certainly there are other things that

00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:37.549
you can have taken away. A driver's license,

00:18:38.089 --> 00:18:41.150
a credit card. But is there any other thing that

00:18:41.150 --> 00:18:44.769
we are born with that we can have? theoretically

00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:46.809
or ideologically printed on a card that somebody

00:18:46.809 --> 00:18:48.430
could just take away from it. That's a weird

00:18:48.430 --> 00:18:53.289
concept. It is. It is. And I mean, so many people

00:18:53.289 --> 00:18:55.329
live by it. And I mean, that's just the interesting

00:18:55.329 --> 00:18:59.549
thing about it. You know, I mean, it was, it's,

00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:02.849
it was so real. Um, and I mean, it probably still

00:19:02.849 --> 00:19:05.990
is very much so, you know, it does seem like

00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:10.289
the younger generations are not embracing that

00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:14.250
as much, you know, perhaps. Some of them know

00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:16.769
some of them. I mean, there's still pockets.

00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.589
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's still there are

00:19:19.589 --> 00:19:23.569
pockets of that, you know. And I'm sure it's

00:19:23.569 --> 00:19:25.210
just like, you know, as we were coming up, I

00:19:25.210 --> 00:19:27.490
mean, there were some groups that were very much,

00:19:27.490 --> 00:19:29.910
you know, like the alpha male that tried to really,

00:19:29.910 --> 00:19:32.170
you know, show out and peacock, if you will,

00:19:32.210 --> 00:19:33.910
you know, because that's really what it all is.

00:19:34.029 --> 00:19:37.089
I mean, when we talk about the symbols and the,

00:19:37.309 --> 00:19:39.230
the way that, that men represent themselves,

00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:43.150
um, nowadays, you know, and it, it's very stereotypical,

00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:46.369
of course, but like the big trucks, the big beards,

00:19:46.490 --> 00:19:50.130
the guns, you know, I mean, yes, the titles,

00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:54.259
but that's maybe less applicable across, you

00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.980
know, across all men, right? You know, but I

00:19:56.980 --> 00:20:00.759
mean, yes, they definitely, um, you know, where

00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.339
their titles, I mean, like a badge of honor,

00:20:03.339 --> 00:20:05.519
um, you know, just the way that they dress. I

00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:08.680
mean, the certain, there's certain like brands

00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.839
that we have become synonymous with, you know,

00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.839
that whole alpha male culture. And it's almost

00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.339
to the point that like, they're, they're a joke,

00:20:18.339 --> 00:20:23.490
um, you know, to, to like, To everyone else that's

00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:27.190
not a part of it. It's kind of like You're like

00:20:27.190 --> 00:20:30.609
It's like a wink and a nod like, uh, okay, you

00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:34.950
know, well, it's it's culty. I mean it But I

00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:39.930
mean, I think it's even more of like I Think

00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:43.569
some people, you know, I'm kind of the point

00:20:43.569 --> 00:20:44.950
that I'm making is that you know when we were

00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:47.109
growing up Yes, there were some of the them.

00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:49.089
And then there were some of the others that were

00:20:49.089 --> 00:20:50.950
not alpha males that looked like they can almost

00:20:50.950 --> 00:20:53.509
like see through, through the facade. And it's

00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:55.529
like, I mean, even remember, I remember like

00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:57.930
growing up, you know, because like, yes, we were

00:20:57.930 --> 00:21:00.130
tough, you know, and we fought a lot that we

00:21:00.130 --> 00:21:02.089
also got picked on a lot, you know, because we

00:21:02.089 --> 00:21:05.349
were different, you know, but like the guys that

00:21:05.349 --> 00:21:07.630
were guys, guys that would get around and like

00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:09.970
have fight clubs in the end of cul -de -sacs,

00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:12.849
like I know that, and this is horrible, you know,

00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.960
But we were dumb kids, but we would make fun

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.420
of them and being like, I bet they're like jerking

00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:22.740
each other off afterwards. Yeah. The fight club

00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:25.059
circle jerks. Yes. I mean, like we made fun of

00:21:25.059 --> 00:21:27.519
them and it's like, I like to, so the, so kind

00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:28.980
of coming full circle about the brands. It's

00:21:28.980 --> 00:21:31.119
almost like we look at those brands in a way

00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:34.279
of being like a wink and a nod of like, Sweet.

00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:38.140
And it's not like it's, it's not like, you know,

00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:42.019
we're, um, you know, demonizing, you know, the

00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:46.599
LGBTQ community, because I mean, that's, that's

00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.039
absolutely not it at all. It's more like the

00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.539
man just own who you are. It's just calling people

00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:54.519
out for the hypocrisy. Absolutely. You really

00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.000
try to go on like wear this, this mask and this

00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.960
whole like, you know, facade of like, I'm a tough

00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.180
guy and all that, but like, you know, you probably

00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:04.529
love a Tinder hug. I mean let's be honest and

00:22:04.529 --> 00:22:08.369
if it's you know if you're going to eschew that

00:22:08.369 --> 00:22:10.630
part of your life that's your business don't

00:22:10.630 --> 00:22:13.250
embrace it if you don't want to whatever but

00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:16.990
don't try to punish those who are living the

00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:20.650
life you wish you were living right this is the

00:22:20.650 --> 00:22:23.470
most hypocritical thing you you know you obviously

00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:25.890
feel these same kinds of feelings but you don't

00:22:25.890 --> 00:22:27.950
want to show them for whatever reason that doesn't

00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:32.799
give you room to go and and discriminate or,

00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.180
or persecute people because they're living the

00:22:35.180 --> 00:22:38.079
life that you have decided you can't live. That's

00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:39.799
your thing, not theirs. Well, it's interesting

00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:43.160
because I mean, you know, I think that a lot

00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.420
of it is as we go through these stages in our

00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:49.240
lives where, you know, we, I know that I've gotten

00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.680
caught up in the whole machismo thing, maybe

00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.240
at different points in my life as a younger,

00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.519
as a younger person. Um, but then it's like,

00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.559
you have these like, like, you know, the fork

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.880
in the road. moments in your life where like

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.660
you can go one way or the other. But I do wonder

00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:11.440
if like, it's like these different scenarios

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.920
as we got as we grow up, like these rites of

00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.140
passage almost, you know, like of being hazed,

00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:20.000
if you will, like as you're in your like friend

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.980
group, but then maybe you go into get into some

00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:25.210
kind of Activity sports or some kind of group

00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:27.910
activity where like you get hazed a little bit

00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:30.740
more words like you maybe want to. You maybe

00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:32.680
you lean one way. Maybe you are more emotional,

00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:34.940
empathetic, you know, like you don't really embody

00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:37.160
the whole machismo, but because the people around

00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.940
you that are like really like the locker room

00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:42.440
talk that, you know, I know we heard. I mean,

00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:45.259
we absolutely heard that probably engaged in

00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:47.859
it, you know, and like, you know, take a think

00:23:47.859 --> 00:23:50.220
about like fraternities and sororities, but like

00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.079
fraternities, particularly like the hazing that

00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.140
goes on, you know, on there. And I'm sure there's

00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:59.940
a lot of other examples. Oh, yeah. And it's it's

00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:03.059
good. Good. I was gonna say, yeah, no. And it's

00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:04.700
all of these, right? These are aimed at other

00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:06.839
men. These are things that don't have women around,

00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.599
right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Lock room. You're in

00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.380
the locker room with other guys. If you're in

00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:14.299
the military or fraternity in the showers, hazing

00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:16.339
people and snapping each other with the towels

00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:19.319
and this is all other dudes, right? You're not

00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:22.380
women are not around here. Right. So yeah, it's

00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:23.980
always aimed at other men. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:24:24.299 --> 00:24:27.349
No, no, no. I was just gonna I mean, I I I I

00:24:27.349 --> 00:24:29.670
think about that. I mean, in like, you know,

00:24:30.250 --> 00:24:32.849
I didn't have a lot of those experiences. I mean,

00:24:33.009 --> 00:24:35.430
yeah, locker room when I was in high school,

00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:37.170
you know, definitely things like that. But then

00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:39.750
it's like, you know, I didn't get into anything

00:24:39.750 --> 00:24:41.910
that was like organized in the sense of like

00:24:41.910 --> 00:24:44.250
all, you know, we were in a band that was coed.

00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:47.329
I mean, and I mean, you know, I was never anything

00:24:47.329 --> 00:24:50.029
that was like strictly male, but like you do

00:24:50.029 --> 00:24:52.410
hear you think about like the Hollywood Hollywood

00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:54.369
version of that, you know, and on the one hand,

00:24:54.410 --> 00:24:57.240
it's like everybody's looking up. Nobody's looking

00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.259
down like, you know, it's eyes forward and very,

00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:04.599
um, I mean, honestly, homophobic in a sense,

00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:06.859
but then you have the other version where they're

00:25:06.859 --> 00:25:09.400
all wrestling and like grabbing each other. And

00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:11.460
like you said, slapping with the towels and it's

00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:15.279
like, you know, there probably is a, a medium

00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.539
where that both exists, you know? And it's like,

00:25:19.539 --> 00:25:21.220
I mean, if you're wrestling with another dude

00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:23.279
who's naked and you're naked too, I mean, I mean,

00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.289
that's not going to say that you're that you're

00:25:25.289 --> 00:25:27.430
anything other than wrestling a naked dude. But

00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:30.250
like, you're real comfortable with something.

00:25:31.650 --> 00:25:34.089
I mean, having another dude's mess on you. I

00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:36.809
mean, that's cool. But you know, I mean, the

00:25:36.809 --> 00:25:39.910
uniforms they wear for, for athletic, uh, competitive

00:25:39.910 --> 00:25:41.930
wrestling today, Greco -Roman style wrestling.

00:25:42.049 --> 00:25:45.970
I mean, they're, they're fairly, um, Revealing

00:25:45.970 --> 00:25:48.509
homoerotic kinds of, well, yeah, they're, they're

00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:51.269
skin tight and revealing. And of course, Greco

00:25:51.269 --> 00:25:53.589
Roman wrestling initially was done naked. Yeah,

00:25:53.750 --> 00:25:56.410
exactly. There you go. Exactly. And I mean, again,

00:25:56.450 --> 00:25:58.490
it's like, you know, it's, it's not an indictment

00:25:58.490 --> 00:26:01.789
of that at all. It's just, you know, the, the,

00:26:01.789 --> 00:26:04.390
I don't know if I'm gonna call it hypocrisy as

00:26:04.390 --> 00:26:12.650
much as like the dichotomy of a lot of In my

00:26:12.650 --> 00:26:14.789
experiences, people who really do embody that

00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.950
whole machismo, like the toxic masculinity, like

00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:21.789
really do think like scoring with women is like

00:26:21.789 --> 00:26:23.589
really just keeping a score. It's not having

00:26:23.589 --> 00:26:25.690
any kind of emotional like attachment. I mean,

00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:28.430
having emotional attachment, catching feelings,

00:26:28.430 --> 00:26:31.150
you know, is, is actually frowned upon, you know,

00:26:31.230 --> 00:26:36.059
I mean, and. It's just it's such I don't I could

00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:39.920
I'm so glad that I didn't you know grow up like

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.180
that I mean and I'm glad I'm not my son doesn't

00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:43.720
seem to be growing up like that because like

00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:46.759
what a hard life to be living as a man dude like

00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:50.799
Well, yeah, and and again, this is all all reinforced

00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:53.279
by these learned activities these rites of passages

00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.799
You said a little while ago all of these things

00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.849
that again are for the consumption of other men

00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:01.190
who are constantly judging you right and if you

00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:03.750
mess up the rites of passage might even turn

00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:06.369
to insults right think of how many times we hear

00:27:06.369 --> 00:27:09.170
people being called a cuck or a beta or oh my

00:27:09.170 --> 00:27:11.710
god yeah or something like that right oh my god

00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:15.890
um a lot of this compensates for some uncertainty

00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:20.279
i think regarding identity or status or as we

00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.599
have brought up sexuality, or power, right? They're

00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.559
uncertain about what they mean, what they mean,

00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.920
both for them individually with it. So they respond

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.279
to this, especially shifting structures of power,

00:27:34.380 --> 00:27:36.680
they respond, they sort of gravitate magnetically

00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:38.900
towards where the power base is, because that's

00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:41.660
the thing that to them, seems the most masculine

00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:44.220
seems the strongest, right, or whatever that

00:27:44.220 --> 00:27:47.609
has to be, right? camper. suggests that this

00:27:47.609 --> 00:27:51.890
is actually the root of misogyny. And he, drawing

00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:55.750
from another philosopher, Kate Mann, he says,

00:27:55.849 --> 00:27:59.150
or she says actually in this case, that misogyny

00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:04.190
is less about men's feelings about women. and

00:28:04.190 --> 00:28:07.890
much more about men's behavior and the systems

00:28:07.890 --> 00:28:10.470
put in place to maintain and police the patriarchy,

00:28:10.670 --> 00:28:12.490
which is exactly what we've just been saying,

00:28:12.549 --> 00:28:15.309
right? As with so many others, these systems

00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:18.789
operate by limiting freedoms, not enhancing or

00:28:18.789 --> 00:28:22.509
expanding them. And of course, this includes

00:28:22.509 --> 00:28:27.150
for men. Men are... Building systems as we always

00:28:27.150 --> 00:28:29.309
have really it's been a man's world since you

00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:32.349
know, pretty much the very beginning building

00:28:32.349 --> 00:28:36.049
systems of power building systems of you know

00:28:36.049 --> 00:28:40.069
hierarchy and things like that that Don't expand

00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:42.630
men's freedoms. They limit them. So we're doing

00:28:42.630 --> 00:28:45.349
this to each other to some extent, right? Well,

00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:48.470
yeah, it's like this weird system of checks and

00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.410
balances that like nobody really wants really

00:28:51.410 --> 00:28:55.400
wants to be a part of but it's like we all Decided

00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.279
that we have to you know, so I guess like it

00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:04.240
makes me wonder like, you know I mean this it

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:08.019
seems like Masculine toxic, you know our toxic

00:29:08.019 --> 00:29:10.960
masculinity or not even maybe toxic maxillin

00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:14.920
but there's a whole idea of like the man's Club

00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:16.859
or whatever. I mean, it's really tied into the

00:29:16.859 --> 00:29:20.450
whole bro culture or like fraternity, not in

00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:23.029
the sense of like, you know, Greek culture necessarily,

00:29:23.170 --> 00:29:26.390
but fraternity of men, the fraternity of, of,

00:29:26.390 --> 00:29:28.750
of order, whatever it is. I mean, it's like,

00:29:28.750 --> 00:29:33.230
you know, they exist in these worlds where like

00:29:33.230 --> 00:29:35.910
there's these unwritten rules, you know, they're

00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:39.130
always on the spot. And it just makes me wonder,

00:29:39.289 --> 00:29:44.009
like, have people always been, you know, engaging

00:29:44.009 --> 00:29:48.480
in this performative aspect or is that more phenomenon

00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:55.440
of mass consumer culture? Mass consumer culture

00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.819
certainly plays a part, I think. I think that

00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:02.079
we would be foolish to ignore what broadcast

00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:04.559
radio and television and the internet have done

00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.240
for this, right? But it's always been performative.

00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:11.009
And I think to some extent, Those who have been

00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:13.650
in on the performance have always known the proper

00:30:13.650 --> 00:30:15.970
symbols and the rituals that go along they've

00:30:15.970 --> 00:30:19.769
always been aware That this is not necessarily

00:30:19.769 --> 00:30:22.150
natural This is something we have to do whether

00:30:22.150 --> 00:30:23.910
they think about it these terms of course is

00:30:23.910 --> 00:30:27.269
a different story But those symbols and rituals

00:30:27.269 --> 00:30:29.349
they they they understand them and of course

00:30:29.349 --> 00:30:32.410
they change with the times they keep updated

00:30:32.410 --> 00:30:37.250
masculinity listen if we were being masculine

00:30:37.250 --> 00:30:43.569
today according to sixth century, uh, Roman standards.

00:30:44.589 --> 00:30:46.250
People would question whether we were masculine

00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:48.369
or not, right? Masculinity and the symbols and

00:30:48.369 --> 00:30:50.529
all the props and rituals. They change. Wait,

00:30:50.529 --> 00:30:53.210
wait, wait. Yeah. Like flag on the play flag

00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:56.990
on the play. Okay. I just, I'm, I'm, I'm connecting

00:30:56.990 --> 00:30:59.049
dots because you know, I mean, well, if you do

00:30:59.049 --> 00:31:02.750
or don't know, I studied, uh, ancient cultures

00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:06.349
as, as a, as a minor in college. And you know,

00:31:06.349 --> 00:31:08.849
it's funny that you make that comment because

00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.319
You know, yeah, let's be honest. I mean, like

00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:14.220
the whole idea of becoming a man in Roman and

00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:17.720
Greek cultures was being sodomized essentially.

00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:21.599
I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's how you were

00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.740
trained. I mean, like that was the idea of being

00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:26.200
trained as a man was like an older man would

00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:28.900
take a younger man into as like a mentorship

00:31:28.900 --> 00:31:32.339
and that mentorship was basically just getting

00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:36.079
it. And I mean, you know, um, yeah. And I mean,

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.450
like, And if you think of some modern prison

00:31:38.450 --> 00:31:40.369
stories, too. Well, yeah, but I mean, like, but

00:31:40.369 --> 00:31:44.029
think about it, man, like these these these these,

00:31:44.029 --> 00:31:47.130
you know, bro, bro culture and all of that, man.

00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:49.269
What what is the empire that they always turn

00:31:49.269 --> 00:31:51.410
to? What is the what is it? What is it? Tell

00:31:51.410 --> 00:31:54.250
me. I know you know it. Oh yes, always Rome.

00:31:54.450 --> 00:31:57.089
It's always Rome. Always Rome. I mean, they look

00:31:57.089 --> 00:31:59.309
at it as being such a great empire and like they

00:31:59.309 --> 00:32:01.549
don't, I mean, maybe they do. Maybe they do.

00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:04.029
Maybe there's like an, we just said unwritten

00:32:04.029 --> 00:32:06.430
rules. Oh my God. Did we just crack the code?

00:32:09.170 --> 00:32:11.089
I think we might've cracked the code, whether

00:32:11.089 --> 00:32:13.990
or not that's going to distribute among the minds

00:32:13.990 --> 00:32:16.309
that we're trying to reach. Well, we hope, right?

00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:21.509
Rome is a great example of this, right? The symbols

00:32:21.509 --> 00:32:25.509
in those days, symbols of status and power and

00:32:25.509 --> 00:32:27.769
masculinity, they're not the same as they are

00:32:27.769 --> 00:32:29.750
today, even though there is sort of a general

00:32:29.750 --> 00:32:32.089
look back and a call back, you know, even Toga

00:32:32.089 --> 00:32:34.250
parties to some extent are sort of a call back

00:32:34.250 --> 00:32:36.769
to that. Man, I just remember there's penises

00:32:36.769 --> 00:32:41.789
all over Rome. Everywhere. There's like, it's

00:32:41.789 --> 00:32:44.650
sculpted into like the tiles and like on the

00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:48.000
sidewalk, there's penises everywhere. and graffitied

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.740
on some of the walls. Yes, absolutely. The Romans

00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:54.460
were a, um, they were actually, they were actually

00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:58.059
sort of a, uh, they weren't vulgar in public,

00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.779
but you can find some, Oh man, I remember like,

00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:02.539
God, it's just like the flashback of studying.

00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:04.440
Like, yeah, some of the tapestries and stuff

00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.220
that that were like, they started to uncover,

00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:09.440
uh, that like depicted some of the parties that

00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.640
they had. Wow. Yeah. Rome. Yeah. Y 'all guys

00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.829
love some Rome, huh? Well, and then you get into

00:33:15.829 --> 00:33:17.890
the Middle Ages and the same thing, right? These

00:33:17.890 --> 00:33:20.529
symbols today would appear kind of weird and

00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:22.549
yet there's a weird sort of fascination if you

00:33:22.549 --> 00:33:25.470
think about going to Renaissance festivals where

00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:28.210
you are exposed to medieval and Renaissance court

00:33:28.210 --> 00:33:30.869
etiquette and honor duels and things like that.

00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:33.869
all of these considered in those days to be very

00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:36.069
masculine, even though they're wearing tights

00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:38.269
and little frilly things and things like, right?

00:33:38.470 --> 00:33:40.029
So if we're wearing those things around today

00:33:40.029 --> 00:33:41.849
outside the context of a Renaissance festival,

00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:43.369
we're gonna be like, what are you doing? This

00:33:43.369 --> 00:33:45.150
is weird. It's peacocking, man, like a hundred

00:33:45.150 --> 00:33:48.130
percent. Yes, a hundred percent, absolutely.

00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:51.349
Peacocking, that's a great term for it. In the

00:33:51.349 --> 00:33:53.569
age of American imperialism around the turn of

00:33:53.569 --> 00:33:57.309
the 20th century, the idea of muscular Christianity,

00:33:57.549 --> 00:34:00.970
right? The idea of righteousness and holiness

00:34:00.970 --> 00:34:04.910
connected intrinsically to health and proper

00:34:04.910 --> 00:34:08.369
displays of athletic vigor and moral purity and

00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:12.289
self control, all of this equaling duty to the

00:34:12.289 --> 00:34:16.670
empire, right? Think about the industrial working

00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:20.469
class folks. physical toughness and solidarity

00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.250
with other men through drinking rituals, um,

00:34:24.309 --> 00:34:25.769
organized fights. You brought up fight clubs,

00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:27.429
which we're not supposed to talk about. I realize,

00:34:27.929 --> 00:34:30.889
but you know, organized fighting rings, cat calling

00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:33.929
guys sitting up on the, on the rafters, cat calling

00:34:33.929 --> 00:34:37.469
young ladies. Um, All of this, by the way, for

00:34:37.469 --> 00:34:41.489
a long time, seen as totally normal in male culture.

00:34:42.170 --> 00:34:44.650
Uh, it's only relatively recently within the

00:34:44.650 --> 00:34:46.630
last 50 years or so that we've started to hear

00:34:46.630 --> 00:34:49.329
that for women, this has been incredibly degrading.

00:34:49.889 --> 00:34:52.409
And, um, it's just not, no, I mean, yeah, not

00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:54.610
a cool thing to do. And like, you know, the funny

00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:57.250
thing is that, you know, we, we should know this.

00:34:57.269 --> 00:34:59.449
I mean, you should just know that. Right. I mean,

00:34:59.730 --> 00:35:02.130
but then like you have a daughter and you're

00:35:02.130 --> 00:35:05.260
like, Yeah. I would know that is unacceptable.

00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.880
You know? And I mean, I think it's always being

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.679
able to put things into context, right? But I

00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:15.260
mean, like, yeah, I mean, cat calling is just,

00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.980
I don't know why. And I mean, it still happens,

00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:20.500
you know, it absolutely, but like, luckily, you

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:22.900
know, women have learned how to kind of fight

00:35:22.900 --> 00:35:24.940
back in a sense. But I mean, even that, you know,

00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:27.280
I don't want to go too far because I mean, that

00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:30.119
can put them in a very dangerous situation because

00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:33.440
let's be honest. women that would rather be in

00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.639
the forest with a bear than they would with a

00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.380
man. I mean, it's been shown time and time again.

00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:48.380
Um, although I, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been

00:35:48.380 --> 00:35:52.019
shit. Yeah. We've, we've proven ourselves unworthy

00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:56.909
to be trusted as a gender 100%. but even when

00:35:56.909 --> 00:35:59.409
we're not doing the stuff that's very public

00:35:59.409 --> 00:36:02.090
like that right there's these ideas about what

00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:05.590
makes a real man quote unquote that again they

00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:07.909
keep up with the times think about post -war

00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:11.449
war two ideals of social conformity right or

00:36:11.449 --> 00:36:13.989
domesticity particularly in the suburbs right

00:36:13.989 --> 00:36:17.639
the idea that the male is the breadwinner Women

00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:21.239
working is abnormal. It's a distortion of what's

00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:23.500
supposed to be the truth. Men should be going

00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:25.559
to work in the morning, coming home in the evening,

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:28.659
making all the money while the woman is cooking

00:36:28.659 --> 00:36:30.500
dinner and raising the children and doing the

00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:32.719
laundry and doing the dishes and keeping the

00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.099
house clean. And by the way, birthing the children,

00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.139
I didn't mention that men can't do that part.

00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:41.380
But you know, all of these weird ideas, keeping

00:36:41.380 --> 00:36:46.289
up with the times that we sort of We embrace

00:36:46.289 --> 00:36:49.889
as symbols of what it means to be a man When

00:36:49.889 --> 00:36:53.309
none of it has anything to do again with what

00:36:53.309 --> 00:36:55.929
we've got between our legs. None of this is anatomical

00:36:55.929 --> 00:36:59.170
This is all a construct. Well, it's all it's

00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:05.110
all meant to Maintain power. I mean, you know,

00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:08.630
it's just a power dynamic. I mean When we talk

00:37:08.630 --> 00:37:10.869
about all of the different things, you know kind

00:37:10.869 --> 00:37:15.159
of going through history I mean, every one of

00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:20.599
those, it's an attempt to display or illustrate

00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:23.780
power and, you know, the whole idea of, you know,

00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:30.219
the man as the breadwinner. Um, you know, that's

00:37:30.219 --> 00:37:33.900
such a fallacy. I mean, maybe at some point in,

00:37:33.900 --> 00:37:36.579
you know, our country's history, that was possible,

00:37:36.579 --> 00:37:42.210
but it became very impossible to have. a single

00:37:42.210 --> 00:37:44.929
income household. So you had to have two people

00:37:44.929 --> 00:37:49.349
out there working. And I mean, when that happened,

00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:53.610
you know, women in the workforce is what is 100

00:37:53.610 --> 00:37:59.250
% what led to the satanic panic. It's, you know,

00:37:59.369 --> 00:38:07.409
the, the idea of um, salary inequality, you know,

00:38:07.469 --> 00:38:10.650
just equality, equality in the workplace. I mean,

00:38:10.710 --> 00:38:14.110
it brought up things like, you know, affirmative

00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:16.670
action and DEI and all of the things now that

00:38:16.670 --> 00:38:18.050
are meant to protect people that were trying

00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:21.809
to call back. I mean, um, it led to a lot of

00:38:21.809 --> 00:38:23.550
really, really good things, but led to really,

00:38:23.550 --> 00:38:26.150
really a lot of really bad things, you know,

00:38:26.150 --> 00:38:28.630
and not bad things in the sense of like women

00:38:28.630 --> 00:38:32.409
out there working, but like, you know, um, them

00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:36.619
having to, you know, expected to work and still

00:38:36.619 --> 00:38:41.340
maintain a household, you know, um, and, and

00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:45.579
think about too, when there's a two income household,

00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:48.579
a husband and a wife, both working, think about

00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:51.119
the cases where the wife makes more money, which

00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.360
until very recently, when I got a raise and I

00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:57.840
now make a tiny bit more than my spouse, um,

00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:00.139
most of our lives, she's made more money than

00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:04.400
me. Um, Think about how some men take that. Oh

00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.099
my God. Wife makes more money than they do and

00:39:07.099 --> 00:39:09.599
they can't live with this idea that they're,

00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:13.300
you know, uh, I don't know, a kept man or something

00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:14.920
like that because the woman is me. I mean, it's

00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:18.719
just all they're inferior. In their mind, they

00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:20.880
think they're inferior because somebody, you

00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:22.920
know, because their spouse makes more or, you

00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.900
know, it's a woman really is probably really

00:39:25.900 --> 00:39:28.199
what it boils down to is that a woman makes more

00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.900
than them. Um, and I mean, I think you know,

00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:35.239
still in our society, in our modern day society,

00:39:35.420 --> 00:39:38.440
I think stay at home dads are still very much

00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:41.980
frowned upon. Um, I mean, by other men, certainly

00:39:41.980 --> 00:39:45.960
they are, you know, um, and I mean, I guess when

00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.659
you look at all of that, right, you know, how

00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:52.380
we still look, how we look at the imbalances

00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:54.539
that it still exists, you know, out there in

00:39:54.539 --> 00:39:56.559
the world where there's the workplace, the household

00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:58.860
or whatever. I mean, it really makes, makes me

00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.159
wonders. Like, you know, How does this relate

00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:03.960
to things like sexuality and gender identity?

00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:07.940
And like, honestly, why do authoritarians care

00:40:07.940 --> 00:40:13.679
so much about that kind of thing? Because controlling

00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:18.000
sex, you ready for this means controlling the

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:23.119
nation. Oh my God. Yeah, I'm willing to bet Jeremy

00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:26.900
that you have probably not thought too much about

00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:29.719
what goes about how what goes on in your bedroom

00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:33.000
with your spouse relates to national strength

00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:36.699
I'm willing to bet in your tenderest moments

00:40:36.699 --> 00:40:40.559
with your wife National strength is not the priority

00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.820
for you. Well, actually when I come I say this

00:40:45.820 --> 00:40:52.579
is for the nation I hope that's true. Well, if

00:40:52.579 --> 00:40:55.659
you have not thought about that, don't worry,

00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:00.619
because I promise you, authoritarians have. They

00:41:00.619 --> 00:41:03.500
always have. They have always thought. I mean,

00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:06.440
that makes so much sense. I mean, if you think

00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.340
about what has happened in the last, I mean,

00:41:08.420 --> 00:41:10.519
like, well, I mean, I don't want to minimalize

00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:12.360
it, but I feel like it's just been like fast

00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:15.280
tracked in the last like five to six, maybe 10,

00:41:15.300 --> 00:41:18.000
but less probably five to six years of like this

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:24.980
attack. I mean, just an absolute attack on women's

00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:28.599
ability to control their bodies. I mean, we have

00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:31.199
taken away abortion and like we're demonizing

00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:33.719
birth control. It's like they want us to have

00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.480
babies. Yeah. Yes. And that's, and there you

00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.980
go. That's what it is. Right. This is all about

00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:46.820
envisioning individual bodies. Us as embodiments,

00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:48.639
every single one of us in the United States,

00:41:48.820 --> 00:41:52.539
all 340 million of us or whatever it is now as

00:41:52.539 --> 00:41:55.579
individual embodiments of the nation itself,

00:41:56.099 --> 00:41:59.780
right? Relying on very old traditions regarding

00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:03.539
gender roles and sexually, quote unquote, pure

00:42:03.539 --> 00:42:08.500
qualities. Masculine purity. Going as far back

00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:11.920
as anybody cares to think I think it's all about

00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:16.199
virility All about discipline, especially martial

00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:18.659
discipline military discipline It's all about

00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:22.440
a readiness and a willingness to fight for whatever

00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:26.199
it is. They got a fight. Yeah, right. Yeah for

00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:32.219
women though purity means chastity It also means

00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:35.000
fertility so it means chastity abstinence from

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:38.809
sex and fertility openness to having sex for

00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:41.670
children which of course leads to reproductive

00:42:41.670 --> 00:42:45.230
labor right that is what makes a woman pure in

00:42:45.230 --> 00:42:48.150
the eyes of the patriarchy and it always has

00:42:48.150 --> 00:42:53.969
so much so that in some cultures way back in

00:42:53.969 --> 00:42:56.949
ancient cultures especially some tribal cultures

00:42:56.949 --> 00:43:01.989
there were men who were jealous of their spouses

00:43:01.989 --> 00:43:05.159
or their partner's ability to give birth And

00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.659
so when the woman was getting ready to go into

00:43:07.659 --> 00:43:11.579
labor, the man would gorge himself to the point

00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:15.199
where he had a huge distended belly and then

00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:18.519
would go out in the woods, pop a squat and drop

00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:22.659
a deuce so that he too could be in labor as his

00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:26.639
wife was giving life. Weird stuff, man. But like,

00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:29.239
this is the patriarchy going all the way back,

00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.920
all, all, all the way back. In our modern day,

00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:37.039
though, we still Think about how this is all

00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.539
framed. A woman should be pure and chaste and

00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:47.000
keep her legs closed until marriage. A man should

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.739
have experience and go out and sow his wild oats.

00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:55.639
My question has always been... With who? If the

00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:57.679
women are supposed to keep their legs closed

00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.780
and be chased, then who are the men supposed

00:43:59.780 --> 00:44:02.239
to get the experience with? It makes no logical

00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.300
sense and yet this is the way this has always

00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:09.039
been framed. Violating sexual purity is framed

00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:11.980
as a virus. It's framed as a disease that will

00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:15.219
ultimately weaken the body politic and threaten

00:44:15.219 --> 00:44:19.539
national vitality because children won't be born

00:44:19.539 --> 00:44:21.900
or at least won't be born in the same, you know,

00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.920
regularity or ways. This means that people in

00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:28.920
the LGBTQ plus community, sex workers, prostitutes,

00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:31.440
and things like that, even in some cases in certain

00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:35.619
times, interracial relationships are all framed

00:44:35.619 --> 00:44:42.360
as wrong, as bad, as impure. Right? Yeah. Authoritarians

00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:45.460
are going to build political control. using this

00:44:45.460 --> 00:44:47.900
kind of moral regulation and we've discussed

00:44:47.900 --> 00:44:51.019
this in our previous episode when we talked uh

00:44:51.019 --> 00:44:53.800
things about uh dissent and deviance and so on

00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:55.920
uh not the previous episode but episodes in the

00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:00.239
past um you know sexual norms in an ur -fascist

00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.659
or an authoritarian regime become proxy for loyalty

00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:07.599
to your culture and to whatever party you think

00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.460
represents you, to whatever regime you support,

00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:14.260
right? You think of the Christian, especially

00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:16.099
in the Catholic church, but also some of the

00:45:16.099 --> 00:45:18.980
evangelical churches who are very adamant about

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:23.280
one man, one woman, right? The sanctity of traditional

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:27.159
marriage. Or to put it more in the redneck camp,

00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.380
it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. That's

00:45:30.380 --> 00:45:32.320
right. My first thing is what the hell's wrong

00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:36.380
with Steve? Steve's a great guy. Um, these people

00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:38.440
are going to use lawfare. They're going to use

00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:40.800
propaganda. They're going to use surveillance,

00:45:41.019 --> 00:45:43.820
right? The big brother state to regulate not

00:45:43.820 --> 00:45:46.920
only public life, but intimate life as well.

00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:54.190
Right. Think of how invasive of our privacy that

00:45:54.190 --> 00:45:56.829
is i mean right it's crazy man but i mean like

00:45:56.829 --> 00:45:59.590
we're seeing it i mean we we're literally seeing

00:45:59.590 --> 00:46:04.210
it like in our modern world you know um this

00:46:04.210 --> 00:46:06.769
yeah they view sexuality in terms of national

00:46:06.769 --> 00:46:09.949
resources children right are a resource right

00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:13.469
that make the nation strong reproductive norms

00:46:13.469 --> 00:46:18.530
not reproductive freedoms men of course are free

00:46:18.530 --> 00:46:22.590
to choose our reproductive rights, so to speak,

00:46:22.670 --> 00:46:25.809
right? We can choose to pull out, we can choose

00:46:25.809 --> 00:46:29.849
to wear a condom, we can choose to ignore what

00:46:29.849 --> 00:46:32.449
we have done completely and write that particular

00:46:32.449 --> 00:46:35.130
intimate relationship off and ignore the consequences

00:46:35.130 --> 00:46:38.329
of it. Men have those abilities and those privileges.

00:46:38.789 --> 00:46:40.789
Women don't have any such privilege. When they

00:46:40.789 --> 00:46:43.190
get pregnant, they don't just get to ignore it.

00:46:43.269 --> 00:46:46.480
It's there, right? and for them this is nothing

00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.360
to do uh the anti -abortion the anti uh birth

00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.679
control this is nothing to do with freedom it's

00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.340
all about protecting traditional norms which

00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:58.679
is ironic in our current environment when our

00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:00.900
current president is breaking every other kind

00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:03.659
of democratic norm that there is right this is

00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.639
the one that they insist on keeping yeah this

00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:10.190
is all about concerns think about elon musk uh

00:47:10.190 --> 00:47:12.929
several months back a year back talking about

00:47:12.929 --> 00:47:15.329
his concern for the drop in birth rates around

00:47:15.329 --> 00:47:18.170
the world why does Elon Musk who has like 64

00:47:18.170 --> 00:47:20.389
and a half children or something like that why

00:47:20.389 --> 00:47:22.389
does he care about the decline in birth rates

00:47:22.389 --> 00:47:24.969
what does this mean to him he's worried about

00:47:24.969 --> 00:47:28.380
population stagnation but why Well, he's about

00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:31.559
to be the world's first trillionaire. I can't

00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:34.619
wrap my head other than the fact that he is an

00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:37.420
authoritarian minded person and believes that

00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:40.239
a woman's role is to continue having children.

00:47:42.300 --> 00:47:45.539
And if there are practices that threaten reproduction,

00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:48.199
an authoritarian regime is going to criminalize

00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:51.320
them. Abortion being the big one in our country.

00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:57.730
A lot of states now have laws on the books that

00:47:57.730 --> 00:48:01.809
threaten prosecution of women who go to get abortions

00:48:01.809 --> 00:48:03.889
and things like that. Certainly prosecution of

00:48:03.889 --> 00:48:07.210
doctors who are providing abortions. Same -sex

00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:09.269
relations, contraception, all of these things

00:48:09.269 --> 00:48:11.789
get criminalized. They get ostracized because

00:48:11.789 --> 00:48:15.329
they threaten a nation's reproductive abilities.

00:48:16.329 --> 00:48:19.750
Now, here's where it gets stupid or squirrely

00:48:19.750 --> 00:48:23.349
or just weird. These are the same people ironically

00:48:23.349 --> 00:48:27.269
who will also advocate for abstinence and restraint

00:48:27.269 --> 00:48:31.090
outside of marriage, right? Particularly in regards

00:48:31.090 --> 00:48:36.130
to military readiness, right? We don't want same

00:48:36.130 --> 00:48:40.170
-sex transgender Etc people who are going to

00:48:40.170 --> 00:48:43.389
weaken the quote -unquote warrior ethos we want

00:48:43.739 --> 00:48:47.059
disciplined soldiers and dutiful wives waiting

00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:49.659
for those soldiers to get back so that we can

00:48:49.659 --> 00:48:52.460
form these two halves of this nationalist ideal.

00:48:53.099 --> 00:48:57.019
One man, one woman, and a million and 12 kids

00:48:57.019 --> 00:49:00.719
they spit out that will go and serve in the nation's

00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:07.260
army or what have you. It's just, again, culty.

00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.750
It's very culty. And well, and there's good reason

00:49:11.750 --> 00:49:14.969
for that. There's a lot of religious and pseudoscientific

00:49:14.969 --> 00:49:18.590
and ideological discourse that help legitimize

00:49:18.590 --> 00:49:21.570
sexual purity and blurring sexual and sacred

00:49:21.570 --> 00:49:23.650
authority. If you think about the Christian take

00:49:23.650 --> 00:49:28.809
on sex, what is, okay, go all the way back to

00:49:28.809 --> 00:49:31.550
Jesus, right? Yep. What was his mother? She was

00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:35.170
a virgin. She was a virgin, and therefore virginity

00:49:35.170 --> 00:49:38.989
is one of the most prized tenets of Christianity.

00:49:39.590 --> 00:49:44.369
Your chastity, your sanctity, intimacy in marriage

00:49:44.369 --> 00:49:48.190
for the purpose of procreation. The Bible is

00:49:48.190 --> 00:49:51.590
full of all kinds of sex and violence and all

00:49:51.590 --> 00:49:53.889
those other things that make a great story, but

00:49:53.889 --> 00:49:56.530
it never says you're supposed to have sex to

00:49:56.530 --> 00:49:59.400
enjoy yourself. that's not in the Bible. It's

00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:02.019
all about procreation which equals spiritual

00:50:02.019 --> 00:50:05.739
strength. The colonial view, taking from the

00:50:05.739 --> 00:50:09.000
Christian view, looks at sexual practices of

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.119
people that they are trying to colonize as markers

00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.480
of savagery. And so you know where we're going

00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:19.639
with this, right? The colonialists bring their

00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.880
Christian missionaries in. and go to all the

00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.199
people who are doing it doggy style or whatever

00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:27.460
they're doing and these missionaries are saying

00:50:27.460 --> 00:50:30.579
no no there's only one good way to have sex and

00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:33.380
that's in the quote -unquote missionary position

00:50:33.380 --> 00:50:36.900
if you're doing it any other way besides that

00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:39.340
if you're doing oral sex anal sex any of those

00:50:39.340 --> 00:50:42.679
things then you're you're not civilized there's

00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.949
something wrong with you yep And so fascism takes

00:50:45.949 --> 00:50:49.769
this to its next logical conclusion, right? Scientific

00:50:49.769 --> 00:50:54.309
sexual practices to include things like eugenics,

00:50:54.530 --> 00:50:57.650
breeding out the bad in order to create a more

00:50:57.650 --> 00:51:00.590
pure race. And of course, racial hygiene, keeping

00:51:00.590 --> 00:51:03.710
the races separate and not able to mix with one

00:51:03.710 --> 00:51:09.650
another. You know? Yeah. This is ugly, ugly,

00:51:09.650 --> 00:51:15.360
ugly stuff. And it's all about, again, us and

00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.960
them, creating others out of people, creating

00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:23.579
rhetoric about the dangers. Sexual deviants do

00:51:23.579 --> 00:51:28.579
things like rape and seduce, right? Right. Think

00:51:28.579 --> 00:51:33.059
of how when Donald Trump and his folks talk about

00:51:33.059 --> 00:51:36.900
rapists and seductive peoples, they're saying

00:51:36.900 --> 00:51:39.239
the same thing. They're not using the same words,

00:51:39.260 --> 00:51:42.039
but they're saying the same things as invasion

00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.570
and pollution. right that's what they're really

00:51:44.570 --> 00:51:46.449
talking about right which of course is going

00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:48.690
to normalize xenophobia it's going to normalize

00:51:48.690 --> 00:51:51.190
racial hierarchy it's going to normalize inequality

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:55.030
across the board framed as defending the honor

00:51:55.030 --> 00:51:58.670
and the purity of the nation so it's all just

00:51:58.670 --> 00:52:01.309
a performance just like masculinity is just a

00:52:01.309 --> 00:52:04.510
performance in private we have our traditional

00:52:04.510 --> 00:52:06.969
gender roles we have our standards of personal

00:52:06.969 --> 00:52:09.630
attractiveness we have our sexual preferences

00:52:09.630 --> 00:52:12.730
and practices and those must be of course pure

00:52:12.730 --> 00:52:16.289
and within the parameters of the regime in public.

00:52:16.449 --> 00:52:18.849
Again, we have our uniforms and our parades and

00:52:18.849 --> 00:52:21.570
our public ceremonies and our physical behavior,

00:52:22.050 --> 00:52:26.389
all designed deliberately, carefully choreographed

00:52:26.389 --> 00:52:30.989
to elicit masculine sentiment or masculine fervor

00:52:30.989 --> 00:52:34.769
or whatever the hell it all happens to be all.

00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:38.559
all of this, even for children, right? Think

00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:42.059
about the ritualized practices with children

00:52:42.059 --> 00:52:46.119
in these kinds of far -right conservative, Christo

00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.920
-fascist kind of communities, right? Promise

00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:53.579
rings. Yeah. A ring, a piece of jewelry to promise

00:52:53.579 --> 00:52:56.000
that you will remain a virgin until you're married.

00:52:56.900 --> 00:53:00.039
Asking a father for his daughter's hand and apparently

00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:02.800
this is pretty big in Southern honor culture.

00:53:03.059 --> 00:53:06.139
Yeah, I did not know this. I had no idea. And

00:53:06.139 --> 00:53:08.219
so when I asked my wife to marry me, I didn't

00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:10.559
go and ask her father's permission first. And

00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:12.900
I think there's been some bad blood about that.

00:53:14.300 --> 00:53:17.079
I did. I did. I asked. I think it's just, you

00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.500
know, Probably because I saw it in so many damn

00:53:19.500 --> 00:53:22.559
movies, you know, like honestly, like, I mean,

00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:23.940
I just thought that's what you were supposed

00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:26.840
to do. Um, but yeah, the pomp and circumstance

00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:32.460
around weddings and, and just all of the, the

00:53:32.460 --> 00:53:37.579
erroneous symbolism. Um, I mean, you know, I,

00:53:37.579 --> 00:53:40.920
I don't want to dive too deeply into this because,

00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:42.809
you know, I mean, I think you know, weddings

00:53:42.809 --> 00:53:45.269
and marriage. I mean, it is something I think

00:53:45.269 --> 00:53:48.769
that is special. Um, and I think people treat

00:53:48.769 --> 00:53:53.489
it too loosely, you know, but I think that, that

00:53:53.489 --> 00:53:57.710
a lot of the, again, just a lot of the ceremony

00:53:57.710 --> 00:54:00.429
around it, you know, the father given the daughter

00:54:00.429 --> 00:54:03.670
away. And I mean, you know, the first dances

00:54:03.670 --> 00:54:10.889
and, and The scriptures and stuff, you know,

00:54:11.570 --> 00:54:13.969
like the sun will cleave into what it's just,

00:54:14.150 --> 00:54:19.409
it gets really. It just, let's unpack that idea

00:54:19.409 --> 00:54:22.070
of the father giving the daughter away, right?

00:54:22.250 --> 00:54:24.730
And he's giving him, giving his daughter, of

00:54:24.730 --> 00:54:29.750
course, to her now husband to be passing a woman,

00:54:29.750 --> 00:54:32.630
right? But the individual with her own agency,

00:54:32.650 --> 00:54:35.340
with her own thinking, right? Taking this person

00:54:35.340 --> 00:54:37.719
and passing it on like a package from one man

00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:41.019
to another. And we all listen that happened at

00:54:41.019 --> 00:54:44.280
my wedding. I have, you know, we've all been,

00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:48.099
I mean, you know, my, my wife's a wedding photographer.

00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:50.360
I've been to many a wedding. I have seen this

00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:52.780
time and time and time and time and time again.

00:54:52.900 --> 00:54:55.260
I mean, I don't think that there may have been

00:54:55.260 --> 00:54:58.219
a couple, you know, but we have done hundreds,

00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:01.559
if not thousands of weddings in our. long career

00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.960
as, you know, as, as doing this, but, uh, man,

00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:07.280
you know, there is a, there is a lot of pomp

00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:10.679
and circumstance around it. You know? Um, I mean,

00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:13.420
even things like taking the garter, like the

00:55:13.420 --> 00:55:15.619
garter tall, you know, the bouquet and the garter

00:55:15.619 --> 00:55:17.699
and all of those things. I mean, it's just like,

00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:20.860
these are things that just need to be retired.

00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:23.579
Like they sort of their real purpose anymore.

00:55:23.579 --> 00:55:26.019
And, you know, and it's very like, again, it's

00:55:26.019 --> 00:55:31.199
very, you see how deeply woven it is into the

00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:36.139
patriarchal narrative, you know? Um, and it's,

00:55:36.139 --> 00:55:39.760
you know, we, it comes a point where like the

00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.960
ceremony and the pop and circumstance don't serve

00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:50.579
who we are as a population anymore. Right. It's.

00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:56.179
It is outmoded. It is overly traditional it is

00:55:56.179 --> 00:55:59.880
There's a power dynamic in almost all cases I

00:55:59.880 --> 00:56:02.480
mean even the tradition of the wife taking the

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:05.139
husband's last name giving up her name her name.

00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:07.900
Yeah To make him feel better. It's just it's

00:56:07.900 --> 00:56:10.280
it's all kind of yeah And again, we're we're

00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:12.280
both in these traditional style marriages where

00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.920
all of that has happened and we know But I know

00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:19.900
others that you know, I I know others who Did

00:56:19.900 --> 00:56:22.360
not take the husband's last name because it was

00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.360
a very Like not a last name that do do what I

00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:29.099
have or better yet. They had a profession Before

00:56:29.099 --> 00:56:32.380
they got married that they were known as that

00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:34.860
That that person and they weren't gonna give

00:56:34.860 --> 00:56:37.360
up that identity and I mean, honestly I look

00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.519
at all these people and I really admire me I

00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:45.300
admire them, you know for having I Mean honestly,

00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:49.320
I just feel so like patronizing, but it's like

00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:50.800
having the strength, I mean, honestly having

00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:55.480
the strength to like not give in to the, the,

00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:59.019
again, the ceremony and the structures that we've

00:56:59.019 --> 00:57:03.219
kind of, you know, really tied into this whole

00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:08.420
idea of marriage. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, you

00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:11.690
know, uh, Got to keep God happy. Yeah. I know.

00:57:11.789 --> 00:57:14.570
And having the right choreography. Well, I know.

00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:16.590
And so, I mean, I don't want to get to, like

00:57:16.590 --> 00:57:19.110
I said, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit

00:57:19.110 --> 00:57:22.170
hole about marriages and weddings in the ceremony.

00:57:22.250 --> 00:57:23.989
Cause I mean, it's important. I know it's important

00:57:23.989 --> 00:57:26.789
to people. And I mean, I think ceremony and pomp

00:57:26.789 --> 00:57:28.909
and circumstance to some extent, I mean, you

00:57:28.909 --> 00:57:32.250
know, it, it, it, there is a value to that with

00:57:32.250 --> 00:57:38.599
people, but There's a fine line, you know, um,

00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:40.260
and, and, and I'll just, that's all I'll say

00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:45.300
about that. Um, but I think, you know, having

00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:47.960
grown up in the, in the South, having grown up

00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:50.820
in the Bible belt, you know, we do look at things

00:57:50.820 --> 00:57:53.739
through a very specific lens, even if we don't

00:57:53.739 --> 00:57:59.219
necessarily necessarily believe in, you know,

00:57:59.300 --> 00:58:03.039
all of those constructs, which again, you know,

00:58:03.139 --> 00:58:05.809
makes me wonder. You know, does the religious

00:58:05.809 --> 00:58:09.929
element in all of this go all the way back to.

00:58:11.110 --> 00:58:15.750
Oh yeah. Religion is pretty often almost always

00:58:15.750 --> 00:58:18.090
behind this in one way or another. Right. And,

00:58:18.090 --> 00:58:21.650
and no different today. Um, we brought up the

00:58:21.650 --> 00:58:25.889
Romans earlier, uh, Imperial laws in Rome punished.

00:58:26.110 --> 00:58:28.710
people who are adulterous because it wasn't sexually

00:58:28.710 --> 00:58:31.989
pure, right? They promoted marital reproduction.

00:58:32.170 --> 00:58:33.869
If you think back to our first episode, as a

00:58:33.869 --> 00:58:37.070
matter of fact, with our guest Amanda Augustus

00:58:37.070 --> 00:58:41.659
under the first emperor, Rome required marital

00:58:41.659 --> 00:58:43.480
reproduction. And if you didn't have the right

00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:46.179
number of children, you paid extra tax. Wow.

00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.400
Like that. All of this as a matter of national

00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:52.159
and spiritual survival. Right. But in Rome, I

00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:54.099
mean, not to say like this was right or wrong,

00:58:54.260 --> 00:58:56.719
but I mean, this was an empire that was expanding

00:58:56.719 --> 00:59:00.360
at a rate that could not be sustained, you know.

00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:03.320
And so, I mean, in that thought, you almost like,

00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:07.070
yeah, we got to have people to like. We've got

00:59:07.070 --> 00:59:10.090
to have Roman, Roman born people to be able to

00:59:10.090 --> 00:59:14.329
go and like inhabit and control all of this place

00:59:14.329 --> 00:59:17.570
that we've conquered. Right. You know, so I mean,

00:59:17.730 --> 00:59:19.949
not to say that it was justified, but I mean,

00:59:19.989 --> 00:59:22.909
in a sense, just like, yeah. And that's in, in

00:59:22.909 --> 00:59:26.590
that particular instance, I mean, it is a, almost

00:59:26.590 --> 00:59:29.250
a sense of national survival because if we don't

00:59:29.250 --> 00:59:32.230
have enough of us Romans, then they're going

00:59:32.230 --> 00:59:34.269
to overrun us, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:59:34.389 --> 00:59:38.280
You know, but. But that gets mixed up in the

00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.260
divine, right? It does, yeah. It is the divine

00:59:41.260 --> 00:59:45.139
will that we expand and so it must also, even

00:59:45.139 --> 00:59:47.780
though we don't necessarily see it in our own

00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:49.860
scriptures, you know, Roman pantheon or whatever,

00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:53.880
we assume that the divine mean for us to have

00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:55.980
all these children, all these Romans to go out

00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:57.420
and Romanize the rest of the world. But I mean

00:59:57.420 --> 00:59:59.199
think about this, you're a Roman husband and

00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:01.579
wife, right? And you've got three kids already

01:00:01.579 --> 01:00:04.039
and you're struggling to make ends meet. I mean,

01:00:04.219 --> 01:00:06.019
or whatever, struggling to get your bread and

01:00:06.019 --> 01:00:09.000
your wheat and whatever it is. And like your

01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.300
leader who've you, you're going to follow to

01:00:11.300 --> 01:00:15.539
the, the ends of the earth. Literally, um, is

01:00:15.539 --> 01:00:18.019
saying you've got to have more kids. Well, like,

01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:21.559
bro, I can't afford more kids. Well, actually

01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:23.800
God said you got to have more kids. Well, who

01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:27.969
can, who am I to say no to God? Now you. I get

01:00:27.969 --> 01:00:29.989
it. But like if it's God's will, I mean, like,

01:00:30.010 --> 01:00:33.889
look, it's the manipulation. And again, like,

01:00:33.989 --> 01:00:36.210
I know we've seen this throughout history and

01:00:36.210 --> 01:00:37.869
I know you're going to give us some great examples

01:00:37.869 --> 01:00:42.650
because I mean, the manipulation and how it gets

01:00:42.650 --> 01:00:49.619
tied to the divine quote unquote is Frustrating.

01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:53.139
Think about clerical celibacy in the Roman Catholic

01:00:53.139 --> 01:00:55.239
Church during the Middle Ages as well as now

01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:59.099
for that matter. It's seen as spiritual discipline.

01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:01.780
You're focusing your mind on God and so you're

01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:05.159
keeping your body pure for God. Think about the

01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:09.059
way they talk about religious orders. Nuns, every

01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:13.059
single Catholic nun in the world is married to

01:01:13.059 --> 01:01:16.639
Jesus. They are all intimate, not physically,

01:01:16.780 --> 01:01:20.039
but spiritually intimate with Jesus, which makes

01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:22.460
him kind of a player if you think about it. But,

01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:26.880
um, you know, there's the moral purity of the

01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:30.780
church itself, unassailable by the secular perversions

01:01:30.780 --> 01:01:33.860
and distortions. Um, we talked about the Virgin

01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:37.860
Mother, right? In the Catholic tradition, I don't

01:01:37.860 --> 01:01:40.099
know how this works in Protestant traditions.

01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:43.960
In the Catholic tradition, Mary remains a Virgin.

01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:48.960
her entire life. She never has sex. Because she's

01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:53.099
the mother of God and has to be above all reproach,

01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:56.539
she remains a virgin her entire life. That's

01:01:56.539 --> 01:02:00.280
important to Catholic doctrine and theology.

01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:05.280
I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure what to do

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:07.119
with that. That's just, but that's weird stuff.

01:02:07.300 --> 01:02:08.820
I mean, yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, there's

01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:10.920
a lot, obviously, I mean, you know, uh, you know,

01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:14.039
in the Catholic, you know, belief system, I mean,

01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:16.820
the Virgin mother, there's a lot of emphasis

01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:18.980
placement in Protestants is basically like, yeah,

01:02:18.980 --> 01:02:20.579
I mean, she had the baby and then like, she's

01:02:20.579 --> 01:02:22.119
out of the picture. I mean, yeah, she comes back

01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:24.719
here and there, but you know, they don't really

01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:26.559
speak of it, but I mean, it's kind of insinuated,

01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:29.360
you know, I mean, and so like, yeah, it's like,

01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:33.739
she's just been like, protected, you know, has

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:35.780
another child. I mean, she's, you know, and I

01:02:35.780 --> 01:02:37.219
mean, of course, in that day and age, I mean,

01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:40.960
that's unheard of. The way it was explained to

01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:44.239
me as a Catholic was that imagine your God and

01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.539
you can create your own mother. Do you want her

01:02:46.539 --> 01:02:49.500
to be a virgin or do you want? It's like, OK,

01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:51.780
from that perspective, I see what you're saying.

01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:53.480
But then again, those traditions are kicking

01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:55.519
in. Why would I want my mother to be a virgin?

01:02:56.179 --> 01:02:57.500
That's right. I don't even want to think about

01:02:57.500 --> 01:03:00.639
that. Thank you very much. Right. Exactly. But

01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:03.920
you know, it's not just Christianity. In Sharia

01:03:03.920 --> 01:03:07.039
law in Islam, there's a regulation of marriage

01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:09.480
and punishment of adultery for the purposes of

01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.320
sexual purity. And this is a culture where polygamy

01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:15.840
is much more common than it is in Christianity.

01:03:16.579 --> 01:03:20.489
It's almost not heard of. If you think again

01:03:20.489 --> 01:03:22.949
about the colonial religious conversion campaigns

01:03:22.949 --> 01:03:25.710
in places like India and Africa, uh, Africa,

01:03:25.710 --> 01:03:29.349
uh, equating all of these indigenous sexual practices

01:03:29.349 --> 01:03:32.630
with corruption and with paganism and savagery,

01:03:32.949 --> 01:03:35.610
and again, insisting upon the use of the missionary

01:03:35.610 --> 01:03:37.750
position as though doing it that way is going

01:03:37.750 --> 01:03:39.730
to bring you closer to the Christian version

01:03:39.730 --> 01:03:42.849
of God. But we even see this in the quote unquote

01:03:42.849 --> 01:03:46.869
modern, you know, 20th century Jim Crow propaganda.

01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:51.760
the paranoia right about the black male predator

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:55.659
specifically in regards to the innocence of white

01:03:55.659 --> 01:04:01.300
women thousands something like 5 000 people between

01:04:01.300 --> 01:04:04.980
the end of the 19th century in the 1950s lynched

01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:08.989
most of them black men uh, plurality of those

01:04:08.989 --> 01:04:11.789
lynchings based on this idea that a black man

01:04:11.789 --> 01:04:14.969
has raped a white woman and that he has taken

01:04:14.969 --> 01:04:18.730
her purity from her, not necessarily because

01:04:18.730 --> 01:04:21.489
they were intimate together, but because he was

01:04:21.489 --> 01:04:24.369
black and she was white. Right. Yeah. You know,

01:04:24.409 --> 01:04:27.750
there's really kind of just, yeah. Lots of examples.

01:04:27.949 --> 01:04:31.030
I mean, it's just, it's interesting to see how

01:04:31.030 --> 01:04:35.289
that idea, you know, the purity idea, sexual

01:04:35.289 --> 01:04:37.789
purity has been like perpetuated. I mean, throughout

01:04:37.789 --> 01:04:40.949
history, I mean, going as far back as we can

01:04:40.949 --> 01:04:43.889
possibly imagine. I mean, it's, it's almost like

01:04:43.889 --> 01:04:48.610
it's somehow strangely like ingrained in our

01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:52.170
psyche as, as a, as humans, I guess, I mean,

01:04:52.170 --> 01:04:57.750
um, but like how that gets translated, you know,

01:04:57.829 --> 01:05:00.480
throughout. throughout the annals of history

01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:03.800
is just, it's fascinating because it really does

01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:08.159
illustrate the power dynamic of, of men over

01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:11.280
women. But let's be honest, it really seems to

01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:15.920
boil down to white men over the world, you know,

01:05:16.159 --> 01:05:19.739
because especially in the modern world, it's

01:05:19.739 --> 01:05:24.500
certainly women, but it seems to be any non white

01:05:24.500 --> 01:05:28.699
man also too seems to kind of fall, you know,

01:05:28.699 --> 01:05:32.039
um, under that purview of it's, it's not like

01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:34.059
you talked about, it's not about the sexuality.

01:05:34.300 --> 01:05:38.079
It's not a really even about the gender as much

01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:41.800
as it is about the power, you know, by one, one

01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:46.079
group of people. Um, so we talk about, you know,

01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:48.400
having the power and it seems like a lot of it

01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:55.460
is through, um, mental manipulation in a lot

01:05:55.460 --> 01:06:00.280
of regards, you know, earlier, you know, echo

01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:04.159
mentioned weapons, you know, as well. And I mean,

01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:07.039
so like, where does that factor into this whole

01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.340
ideology? I mean, I know we've talked about guns,

01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:13.159
but like, you know, in the, in the Pantheon of

01:06:13.159 --> 01:06:15.599
the whole conversation, I mean, like, what is

01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:19.380
that? Yeah. Where's that fall? Can you think

01:06:19.380 --> 01:06:21.829
of a weapon? that you can hold in your hands.

01:06:22.150 --> 01:06:24.070
I'm not necessarily talking about tanks or airplanes

01:06:24.070 --> 01:06:26.750
or even bombs, but a weapon that you can hold

01:06:26.750 --> 01:06:29.030
in your hands. Can you think of one that is not

01:06:29.030 --> 01:06:34.349
long and relatively skinny? Uh, I can't, I can't

01:06:34.349 --> 01:06:38.010
think of anything. Right. Uh, I keep trying to

01:06:38.010 --> 01:06:40.750
go to a big sledgehammer, but even that, uh,

01:06:40.750 --> 01:06:42.130
if you think about it, you hold it the right

01:06:42.130 --> 01:06:46.389
way. The head of the sledgehammer. Weapons have

01:06:46.389 --> 01:06:50.070
always stood in as phallic props. They look like

01:06:50.070 --> 01:06:54.150
dicks. They've always stood in as phallic props

01:06:54.150 --> 01:06:56.869
in the performance. And the debates about weapons

01:06:56.869 --> 01:06:59.269
are often, if you think about our gun debates

01:06:59.269 --> 01:07:01.710
here in the United States, often wrapped up in

01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:04.210
language of masculinity. Oh, a hundred percent.

01:07:04.469 --> 01:07:07.190
A hundred percent. I mean, yeah, it's like an

01:07:07.190 --> 01:07:12.380
extension of your dick. You know, I mean. Sex

01:07:12.380 --> 01:07:15.340
and the male body have already, as we've talked

01:07:15.340 --> 01:07:17.760
about, been weaponized in service of authority,

01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:21.119
but they also have their external weapons that

01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.820
aren't part of their anatomy that come to stand

01:07:23.820 --> 01:07:29.360
in or represent the anatomy in many honor shame

01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:31.480
cultures like the United States has been for

01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:34.679
a long time. The right and ability to bear arms

01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:39.949
is central to male identity. publicly displaying

01:07:39.949 --> 01:07:42.289
your arms, whether you're wearing your samurai

01:07:42.289 --> 01:07:45.869
swords, or you're in a kilt wearing your Dirk

01:07:45.869 --> 01:07:49.170
and your dagger very visibly to your friends

01:07:49.170 --> 01:07:52.610
and enemies. Wild West outlaws with their pistols

01:07:52.610 --> 01:07:55.449
and their bandoliers all showing and jangling

01:07:55.449 --> 01:07:59.050
as they walk. Honor dueling once again in Renaissance

01:07:59.050 --> 01:08:01.690
Europe or in the American South where it remains

01:08:01.690 --> 01:08:04.610
very popular through the 19th century. If you

01:08:04.610 --> 01:08:08.269
refuse a duel, not only does that mean you you're

01:08:08.269 --> 01:08:11.409
dishonorable. It also means you're a coward.

01:08:11.829 --> 01:08:14.849
It means that you are a yellow belly. You're

01:08:14.849 --> 01:08:17.789
a chicken. And that implies that you're impotent,

01:08:17.890 --> 01:08:21.170
that you can't get it up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean,

01:08:21.189 --> 01:08:23.289
we've heard you've heard all of that rhetoric,

01:08:23.430 --> 01:08:25.010
you know, particularly, I mean, like in movies,

01:08:25.029 --> 01:08:27.989
you know, when you, you know, I think that's

01:08:27.989 --> 01:08:29.909
where like, it seems to come the strongest with

01:08:29.909 --> 01:08:33.659
me, you know, that whole Challenging someone,

01:08:33.659 --> 01:08:35.460
you know, and it always seemed like the person

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:37.359
who's turning away from the challenge that gets

01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:40.920
called is more the the intellect, you know, strangely

01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:44.539
enough, oftentimes, you know, they are actually

01:08:44.539 --> 01:08:48.659
equally as skilled in their in their craft, you

01:08:48.659 --> 01:08:50.920
know, gunslinging or whatever it may be. But

01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:52.960
like they're an intellect that chooses a more

01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:57.960
like novel approach to conflict and things like

01:08:57.960 --> 01:09:02.170
that, you know. But it, it's just, it's, it's

01:09:02.170 --> 01:09:03.529
interesting because we see it, we see it over

01:09:03.529 --> 01:09:05.829
and over. And now, of course we also see the

01:09:05.829 --> 01:09:08.609
converse of that, of someone who is just a let,

01:09:08.729 --> 01:09:10.270
you know, kind of quote unquote less than where

01:09:10.270 --> 01:09:12.949
it's like less physical or whatever. And they

01:09:12.949 --> 01:09:14.689
just get picked on and you know, knocked around

01:09:14.689 --> 01:09:17.869
and that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, I mean,

01:09:17.869 --> 01:09:21.909
it's definitely deeply ingrained. And these phallic

01:09:21.909 --> 01:09:23.890
symbols are equated with our virility, right?

01:09:23.930 --> 01:09:27.449
With our ability. to fuck with our ability to

01:09:27.449 --> 01:09:30.529
make babies and to populate the world with our

01:09:30.529 --> 01:09:33.340
you know All of this is equated with virility

01:09:33.340 --> 01:09:36.640
and to be disarmed to have your weapon taken

01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:40.840
away is akin to many people to symbolic castration.

01:09:41.020 --> 01:09:43.239
So now you think about the gun debates in the

01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:45.239
United States. No, the Second Amendment says

01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:48.279
you can't take our guns away. If they do, though,

01:09:48.340 --> 01:09:50.180
what does that really mean for you? Does it mean

01:09:50.180 --> 01:09:52.180
that you're going to be taken over by a tyrannical

01:09:52.180 --> 01:09:55.039
government? Maybe. Maybe it just means that you're

01:09:55.039 --> 01:09:56.899
a you're a scaredy cat now because you don't

01:09:56.899 --> 01:10:01.100
have, you know, And of course, the bigger the

01:10:01.100 --> 01:10:02.840
gun, right? Right. And I mean, the thing about

01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:04.819
it is this whole idea of the second amendment.

01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:06.699
Let's talk about that for a second, because,

01:10:06.819 --> 01:10:08.479
I mean, that's coming up a lot, you know, in

01:10:08.479 --> 01:10:14.159
our conversation today. And, you know, the idea

01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:16.880
of the second amendment was the right to bear

01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:19.699
arms against a tyrannical government. And if

01:10:19.699 --> 01:10:24.140
there ever was a time to exercise the second

01:10:24.140 --> 01:10:27.970
amendment in its fullest would be now. but all

01:10:27.970 --> 01:10:33.210
these second amendment pieces of shit who have

01:10:33.210 --> 01:10:36.789
cried, don't take my guns, second amendment,

01:10:37.050 --> 01:10:42.170
blah, blah, blah, you know, I mean, they are

01:10:42.170 --> 01:10:44.670
like, where, where are you? Where are you? Where

01:10:44.670 --> 01:10:46.890
are you? Like you're literally, I mean, like

01:10:46.890 --> 01:10:52.489
your president is taking away your jobs, taking

01:10:52.489 --> 01:10:57.619
away your food. Mean and and is building a ballroom

01:10:57.619 --> 01:11:01.619
had a Halloween party at his in Florida this

01:11:01.619 --> 01:11:04.539
past weekend Like he doesn't care about you.

01:11:04.539 --> 01:11:07.899
He's taking everything. He's robbing you of everything

01:11:07.899 --> 01:11:12.539
And I can tell you where they are They're all

01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:14.920
in their basements looking at their arsenal of

01:11:14.920 --> 01:11:17.819
dildo. I mean, excuse me Rifles. Yeah, they're

01:11:17.819 --> 01:11:20.159
ar -15s and whatever else is they've got down

01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:25.840
there They're fantasizing about a civil war where

01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:29.380
they get to go out and own the libs meanwhile

01:11:29.380 --> 01:11:32.739
the worst fears of the founders is happening

01:11:32.739 --> 01:11:34.439
right now I mean and the crazy thing is like

01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:36.739
we're not your enemies bro we're not trying to

01:11:36.739 --> 01:11:41.060
take anything from you you know I mean you know

01:11:41.060 --> 01:11:43.739
I know that a lot of this is backlash from like

01:11:43.739 --> 01:11:46.180
the whole idea of cancel culture and people enemy

01:11:46.180 --> 01:11:50.479
and that wasn't anything more than people finally

01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:54.380
being held accountable for just really like outrageous

01:11:54.380 --> 01:11:57.180
behavior. I mean, the people that got canceled

01:11:57.180 --> 01:11:59.619
in that whole idea of cancel culture of, you

01:11:59.619 --> 01:12:01.479
know, the times the libs were doing it, whatever.

01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:05.500
I mean, like a lot of those people, like they

01:12:05.500 --> 01:12:08.520
did some horrific stuff, man, like, you know,

01:12:08.520 --> 01:12:11.979
and got called on it and got canceled. I don't,

01:12:12.180 --> 01:12:14.319
I mean, yeah, maybe some people got caught in

01:12:14.319 --> 01:12:17.619
the cross hairs, but I mean, I don't recall of

01:12:17.619 --> 01:12:24.170
anyone that like, didn't probably deserve right.

01:12:25.270 --> 01:12:29.090
Fast forward, they're literally doing the same

01:12:29.090 --> 01:12:31.510
thing. They're literally like they literally

01:12:31.510 --> 01:12:33.869
are trying to cancel people. I mean, like the

01:12:33.869 --> 01:12:36.149
whole Charlie Kirk situation and people speaking

01:12:36.149 --> 01:12:38.449
out about that and like people being like, call

01:12:38.449 --> 01:12:40.590
their employers, get them fired. Like, bro, that's

01:12:40.590 --> 01:12:44.810
cancel culture. Like you're embracing this. That's

01:12:44.810 --> 01:12:48.819
why we don't take you serious. It's cancel culture

01:12:48.819 --> 01:12:53.619
and they're they're focusing on the same kinds

01:12:53.619 --> 01:12:55.680
of things that other people were being canceled

01:12:55.680 --> 01:12:58.800
for before and yet nobody sees it right because

01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:03.119
This is all being told by the regime to its supporters

01:13:03.119 --> 01:13:05.399
that this is the way it's supposed to be This

01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:08.439
is our tradition that we're gonna keep You know

01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:10.979
sort of addicted to and so we're gonna reject

01:13:10.979 --> 01:13:13.640
the modernity that calls for greater equality

01:13:13.640 --> 01:13:16.899
and all those good things, right and fascists

01:13:16.899 --> 01:13:19.000
have always done this. If you think about the

01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:21.800
fascists of the 20th century, this is exactly

01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:24.239
what all the pomp and circumstance and pageantry

01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:27.020
was all about the whole time. All the swastikas

01:13:27.020 --> 01:13:29.779
and the Nuremberg rallies, all of that was in

01:13:29.779 --> 01:13:33.119
service to this performance that takes people

01:13:33.119 --> 01:13:37.640
in and completely snows them. They cultivate

01:13:37.640 --> 01:13:42.000
an image depicting strongman leader as virile,

01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:44.619
as athletic, as militaristic and aggressive.

01:13:45.340 --> 01:13:50.239
They project onto this guy the ideal of the nation

01:13:50.239 --> 01:13:54.500
as a strong male body. Fighting off diseases,

01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:04.000
weaknesses, decadence, effeminacy. That's what

01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:05.600
the leader is going to do. They're going to chase

01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:09.300
all of these perversions and distortions of our

01:14:09.300 --> 01:14:13.130
traditional society away. We're going to do this

01:14:13.130 --> 01:14:15.989
through embracing sport culture and military

01:14:15.989 --> 01:14:18.989
drills and youth organizations, all of these

01:14:18.989 --> 01:14:21.710
promoting ideas about toughness and endurance

01:14:21.710 --> 01:14:26.869
and masculinity. Women, as we've said, usually

01:14:26.869 --> 01:14:30.069
don't have a major place in these kinds of regimes,

01:14:30.409 --> 01:14:33.890
but such as they do, they're framed as mothers

01:14:33.890 --> 01:14:37.649
of the nation. They're producers of racially,

01:14:38.069 --> 01:14:40.670
culturally, nationalistically, quote unquote,

01:14:41.130 --> 01:14:45.250
pure offspring to eventually be fed into the

01:14:45.250 --> 01:14:47.130
dead hero machine that we were talking about

01:14:47.130 --> 01:14:51.430
in our last episode. Any kind of contraceptive

01:14:51.430 --> 01:14:53.890
measure to prevent children, any kind of sexual

01:14:53.890 --> 01:14:56.449
promiscuity is going to be heavily stigmatized,

01:14:56.550 --> 01:15:00.069
even criminalized by the fascists. By contrast,

01:15:00.270 --> 01:15:03.609
of course, marriage and large families. received

01:15:03.609 --> 01:15:06.750
government subsidies and even national honours.

01:15:07.189 --> 01:15:10.789
The Nazis had a special medal created called

01:15:10.789 --> 01:15:14.430
the Mütterkreuz or the, you know, having to do

01:15:14.430 --> 01:15:16.529
with the mother, the mother's medal for German

01:15:16.529 --> 01:15:19.829
mothers for exceptional merit to greater Germany

01:15:19.829 --> 01:15:23.369
by having German children with German husband.

01:15:23.630 --> 01:15:28.590
And now if somebody does that generally going

01:15:28.590 --> 01:15:32.800
to be demonized. Right. You know, right. Um,

01:15:33.020 --> 01:15:34.520
Oh, they're taking off, you know, they're living

01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:37.939
off the government, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

01:15:37.939 --> 01:15:42.039
for those families that are white and have a

01:15:42.039 --> 01:15:45.159
lot of kids, their sons ends up in jail for being

01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:50.439
rapists. Right. Right. Josh Dugger calling Josh

01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:52.159
Dugger out in case you were questioning Josh

01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:56.340
Dugger is a rapist to be in jail. Correct. A

01:15:56.340 --> 01:15:59.710
hundred percent. Fascist policy, propaganda,

01:15:59.989 --> 01:16:02.289
right, is going to direct sexual energies away

01:16:02.289 --> 01:16:05.649
from individual pleasure. They're not worried

01:16:05.649 --> 01:16:09.010
about whether you have fun having sex. It's all

01:16:09.010 --> 01:16:12.270
about collective duty. It's all about pure women,

01:16:12.350 --> 01:16:15.409
as I said before, remaining chaste until marriage

01:16:15.409 --> 01:16:18.890
and then growing fruitful and multiplying, right?

01:16:18.970 --> 01:16:22.960
So, of course, it's buoyed by religion. Specifically

01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:26.260
in those cases, usually in fascist Europe, by

01:16:26.260 --> 01:16:29.939
some version and usually a distortion of Christianity.

01:16:31.399 --> 01:16:34.819
Under these regimes, homophobic policy targets

01:16:34.819 --> 01:16:38.380
perceived threats to masculinity and the reproductive

01:16:38.380 --> 01:16:44.340
order. Under paragraph 175 of Nazi law, they

01:16:44.340 --> 01:16:48.210
persecuted specifically gay men. They went after

01:16:48.210 --> 01:16:52.229
specifically gay men and the kinds of experiments

01:16:52.229 --> 01:16:55.510
and torture that gay men were subjected to in

01:16:55.510 --> 01:16:58.789
concentration camps was in many cases I mean

01:16:58.789 --> 01:17:01.369
look it's all beyond the pale but like some of

01:17:01.369 --> 01:17:03.310
these things that specifically with gay men it's

01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:06.689
like you know trying to you know inject chemicals

01:17:06.689 --> 01:17:09.510
in them to turn them straight trying to castrate

01:17:09.510 --> 01:17:12.829
them to take away their sexual desire and things

01:17:12.829 --> 01:17:15.970
like that really you know gross kind of stuff.

01:17:16.829 --> 01:17:20.989
Any same -sex desire despite the Nazis certainly

01:17:20.989 --> 01:17:23.109
having gay men within their ranks who were hiding.

01:17:24.270 --> 01:17:26.970
Any same -sex desire is framed as degenerate,

01:17:27.270 --> 01:17:30.289
as incompatible with national strength and again

01:17:30.289 --> 01:17:35.329
often buoyed by religious traditions. The Bible

01:17:35.329 --> 01:17:38.130
supposedly, although I've never been able to

01:17:38.130 --> 01:17:41.350
find it specifically, supposedly says you're

01:17:41.350 --> 01:17:44.159
not supposed to be gay. And so these religious

01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:47.960
traditions of biblical scripture, uh, now informing

01:17:47.960 --> 01:17:51.439
state policy under fascist, uh, regimes and starting

01:17:51.439 --> 01:17:54.739
to do so again today. Right. Now, when I read

01:17:54.739 --> 01:17:57.640
the Bible, the one thing I have seen that I guess

01:17:57.640 --> 01:18:00.720
some people think says it is that if a man lies

01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:03.319
with another man, he shall be stoned. And I always

01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:05.000
took that to mean he's going to smoke a joint

01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:08.939
and get real high. They probably were, to be

01:18:08.939 --> 01:18:10.960
honest with you, man, I don't doubt that the

01:18:10.960 --> 01:18:14.909
apostles were like. Tripping balls on. I mean,

01:18:14.970 --> 01:18:16.609
come on, bro. Like think about where, where were

01:18:16.609 --> 01:18:24.149
they? Where? Okay. Where does the creation myth?

01:18:25.750 --> 01:18:32.510
Like where is it originated? Okay. Better yet.

01:18:32.770 --> 01:18:37.289
Where does Afghani weed come from? Yeah. Yeah.

01:18:37.289 --> 01:18:39.930
No, it's all from the ancient world for the Middle

01:18:39.930 --> 01:18:42.449
East, the Middle East, where like they were.

01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:45.460
they were a part of I mean this stuff just I

01:18:45.460 --> 01:18:48.920
mean it's natural you know and they're they're

01:18:48.920 --> 01:18:51.420
finding remnants of it uh from five I mean and

01:18:51.420 --> 01:18:53.439
like you don't think that you don't think that

01:18:53.439 --> 01:18:56.380
like medicinal like magic mushrooms I mean and

01:18:56.380 --> 01:18:59.180
it's like different other like organic materials

01:18:59.180 --> 01:19:01.359
that are out there that these people probably

01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:05.460
ate on and realized oh my god I saw god oh my

01:19:05.460 --> 01:19:08.560
god I saw god you know and they're like go and

01:19:08.560 --> 01:19:11.170
write some crazy book You know, and it's funny

01:19:11.170 --> 01:19:13.029
because I mean, for the longest time, I thought

01:19:13.029 --> 01:19:14.829
that John DeBaptist, I mean, we were taught that

01:19:14.829 --> 01:19:16.369
John DeBaptist, I think was the one who wrote

01:19:16.369 --> 01:19:18.430
Revelations and like he did it, you know, in

01:19:18.430 --> 01:19:22.210
a vision, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it was

01:19:22.210 --> 01:19:24.109
John of Patmos, not the... Okay. It was John

01:19:24.109 --> 01:19:27.729
of Patmos. Right. Yes. Exactly. Okay. but he

01:19:27.729 --> 01:19:30.689
ate it and ate probably, you know, trips. And

01:19:30.689 --> 01:19:31.930
then like, you know, you hear blah, blah, blah.

01:19:32.010 --> 01:19:34.130
And then, and then you hear really that actually,

01:19:34.189 --> 01:19:36.350
no, revelation was actually all added in the

01:19:36.350 --> 01:19:38.510
whole actual idea of the rapture was added in

01:19:38.510 --> 01:19:41.350
like after the 18 thirties. You're like, oh,

01:19:41.350 --> 01:19:44.210
yes. Oh, okay. Cool. So the thing that I lived

01:19:44.210 --> 01:19:49.550
in absolute like terror. Yes. Thank you. Terror

01:19:49.550 --> 01:19:53.260
is the best word to describe. the fear that I

01:19:53.260 --> 01:19:56.020
lived under as a child of the rapture was something

01:19:56.020 --> 01:19:58.319
that was concocted by some guy down the road,

01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:02.640
you know, way after these books were found and

01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:05.699
canonized. I mean, like, Oh, makes you wonder

01:20:05.699 --> 01:20:08.420
how much other stuff in the Bible has been mistranslated

01:20:08.420 --> 01:20:12.340
for modern purposes and put into state policy

01:20:12.340 --> 01:20:16.359
and things like that. Yes, yes. And here's the

01:20:16.489 --> 01:20:20.010
Here's the big hypocrisy with the fascists. Despite

01:20:20.010 --> 01:20:23.029
all of their rhetoric about sexual purity and

01:20:23.029 --> 01:20:27.310
ideology, their leaders, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco,

01:20:28.010 --> 01:20:30.630
Pinochet, Stalin, whoever else you want to talk

01:20:30.630 --> 01:20:33.890
about, they often bragged of their own individual

01:20:33.890 --> 01:20:37.489
sexual ideals. Mussolini was well noted to have

01:20:37.489 --> 01:20:39.750
had numerous affairs, even though he was married,

01:20:39.770 --> 01:20:44.010
I think. Hitler was rumored to engage in quote

01:20:44.010 --> 01:20:48.449
-unquote eccentric. sexual activities, including

01:20:48.449 --> 01:20:54.270
some scatological ones. Hitler liked poop. Four

01:20:54.270 --> 01:20:56.930
of Hitler's lovers, by the way, attempted suicide.

01:20:57.409 --> 01:21:00.069
Three of them succeeded. And while correlation

01:21:00.069 --> 01:21:03.670
doesn't equal causation, maybe sometimes it does.

01:21:05.010 --> 01:21:09.250
I think if I was one of Hitler's lovers, I would

01:21:09.250 --> 01:21:11.229
probably try to end it too, especially if he

01:21:11.229 --> 01:21:15.340
was into scatological kinds of things. This is

01:21:15.340 --> 01:21:17.979
all, again, lots of rhetoric about the importance

01:21:17.979 --> 01:21:22.220
of purity and about the degeneracy of deviance

01:21:22.220 --> 01:21:25.420
and perversion and yet these guys sound like

01:21:25.420 --> 01:21:27.100
they're, well, like they're perverts. Man, what

01:21:27.100 --> 01:21:30.819
is it with these men in power, bro, and their

01:21:30.819 --> 01:21:35.399
weird sexual proclivities? I mean, I distinctly

01:21:35.399 --> 01:21:41.439
recall a dossier that was put together about

01:21:41.439 --> 01:21:46.000
someone liking to get peed on. You know? Or maybe

01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:48.500
he peed on someone. I don't know, I can't remember,

01:21:48.939 --> 01:21:54.060
but I mean. I guess they had sort of debunked

01:21:54.060 --> 01:21:56.960
that, but here's the problem, right? Whether

01:21:56.960 --> 01:22:00.100
it was debunked or not, none of us had any trouble

01:22:00.100 --> 01:22:02.640
believing it was true. I mean, yeah, you know,

01:22:02.659 --> 01:22:04.319
so yeah, it's like it's like all of this, you

01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:06.729
know, like what we're talking about from. from

01:22:06.729 --> 01:22:10.069
history standpoint, you know, um, I mean, it

01:22:10.069 --> 01:22:15.850
has, it seems to be like having a, uh, it's ringing

01:22:15.850 --> 01:22:21.609
a bell. You know, it's ringing a bell here. Um,

01:22:21.869 --> 01:22:26.810
and it just, it just makes you wonder, I guess.

01:22:26.810 --> 01:22:29.369
I mean, not really, but I mean, yes, it does.

01:22:29.369 --> 01:22:30.949
I mean, it makes you wonder, okay. Like, so like,

01:22:31.170 --> 01:22:34.750
how does making America great again, fit into

01:22:34.750 --> 01:22:39.310
this picture? Well, if we're watching the revival

01:22:39.310 --> 01:22:41.949
of a play then it does so by picking up the script

01:22:41.949 --> 01:22:44.670
right out of the classic playbook and Modernizing

01:22:44.670 --> 01:22:49.609
it to fit the contemporary moment The MAGA movement

01:22:49.609 --> 01:22:53.270
is obsessive over questions of masculinity and

01:22:53.270 --> 01:22:57.409
sexual purity despite as we've said many times

01:22:57.560 --> 01:23:00.439
many within the movement transgressing their

01:23:00.439 --> 01:23:03.680
own parameters, crashing grinder, uh, getting

01:23:03.680 --> 01:23:06.199
peed on or whatever else is. Well, here's the

01:23:06.199 --> 01:23:08.060
other thing too, man, you know, and I don't want

01:23:08.060 --> 01:23:10.279
to overgeneralize. I really, really don't, but

01:23:10.279 --> 01:23:14.239
I feel like I, I swear, I feel like every day

01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:18.119
I hear something in the news about some. high

01:23:18.119 --> 01:23:21.979
profile MAGA supporter getting like arrested

01:23:21.979 --> 01:23:25.340
for child pornography or engaging in sex acts

01:23:25.340 --> 01:23:28.600
with a child or some other horrific crime involving

01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:36.079
children. And I'm like, as a person with like

01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:39.159
human emotions and feelings and like someone

01:23:39.159 --> 01:23:42.039
who acknowledges them, one, it makes me very,

01:23:42.079 --> 01:23:46.029
very angry. But it's like at what point are we

01:23:46.029 --> 01:23:48.149
going to just go ahead and rip the curtain back

01:23:48.149 --> 01:23:52.949
and expose these people for what they are? I

01:23:52.949 --> 01:23:55.850
keep waiting. Yeah, I keep waiting. You know,

01:23:55.850 --> 01:23:58.810
it's not like it's hidden. It's not like they

01:23:58.810 --> 01:24:00.829
have changed so much that we can't recognize

01:24:00.829 --> 01:24:03.529
it. The performance of masculinity among the

01:24:03.529 --> 01:24:06.670
MAGA crowd is full of all the recognizable props

01:24:06.670 --> 01:24:10.090
and rituals. Think about the red MAGA hats, man.

01:24:10.350 --> 01:24:12.630
Red MAGA hats everywhere. That's the uniform.

01:24:12.829 --> 01:24:15.489
along with maxi pads on their ears after the

01:24:15.489 --> 01:24:19.350
supposed assassination attempt. You see the huge

01:24:19.350 --> 01:24:21.850
flags, sometimes American flags, sometimes Trump

01:24:21.850 --> 01:24:25.010
flags, sometimes rebel flags. The banners hung

01:24:25.010 --> 01:24:29.689
almost menacingly. People fly these things not

01:24:29.689 --> 01:24:32.229
to celebrate their support for the president,

01:24:32.350 --> 01:24:37.649
but to scare people who don't. They're hung almost

01:24:37.649 --> 01:24:39.909
menacingly everywhere you look, and of course

01:24:39.909 --> 01:24:42.960
guns and the intensity of the gun debate. Fears

01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:45.680
being disarmed emasculated whatever all of this

01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:48.579
militaristic imagery implied violence All of

01:24:48.579 --> 01:24:51.619
this is part of the show and we've seen it all

01:24:51.619 --> 01:24:54.340
forever. We've seen it all in every iteration

01:24:54.340 --> 01:24:58.800
of a authoritarian government trying to use gender

01:24:58.800 --> 01:25:02.439
and sex and masculinity to control the people

01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:05.140
You know, it's really, you know, oh go ahead.

01:25:05.140 --> 01:25:07.039
No, it's gonna say it was really it was really

01:25:07.039 --> 01:25:12.880
interesting about the firearm industry When Trump

01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:19.199
is in office that industry sees a decline People

01:25:19.199 --> 01:25:21.439
aren't scared, right? When Democrats are in office,

01:25:21.560 --> 01:25:24.159
the old talking point is that Democrats are going

01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:26.359
to seize our guns. So go out and buy as many

01:25:26.359 --> 01:25:27.960
as you can. And of course you see the prices

01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:30.979
of guns rising in those areas too. Right now,

01:25:31.100 --> 01:25:34.220
the, the nation is seeing a decline in gun sales

01:25:34.220 --> 01:25:36.520
because people are not scared that their guns

01:25:36.520 --> 01:25:39.319
are going to be grabbed. Ironically, it is the

01:25:39.319 --> 01:25:42.460
Trump administration and the Pam Bondi DOJ that

01:25:42.460 --> 01:25:45.659
are first starting to talk about a national registry

01:25:45.659 --> 01:25:49.439
of gun. That is crazy. Could you imagine if a

01:25:49.439 --> 01:25:51.260
Democrat, like that would start a civil war.

01:25:51.579 --> 01:25:53.399
That would start, if a Democrat had mentioned,

01:25:54.079 --> 01:25:57.560
even breached that topic, bro, and then they

01:25:57.560 --> 01:25:59.659
may have in the past, but I mean like that would

01:25:59.659 --> 01:26:04.359
just set it off, bro. Sure it would, but now

01:26:04.359 --> 01:26:06.479
it's going to be seen as, Oh, just for the safety

01:26:06.479 --> 01:26:08.460
of the country, they'll, they'll figure out a

01:26:08.460 --> 01:26:10.600
way. The supporters, the base, the MAGA heads,

01:26:10.819 --> 01:26:13.319
maggots, I'll call them. They will figure out

01:26:13.319 --> 01:26:17.460
a way to justify or say, Oh, it's just Trump

01:26:17.460 --> 01:26:19.680
being Trump. This is the way he negotiate. I

01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:21.300
agree with you. I think, I think a lot of people,

01:26:21.460 --> 01:26:23.340
I think there will be a contingent that will

01:26:23.340 --> 01:26:26.039
absolutely be happy to sign over whatever, but

01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:28.020
I think that more and more people are becoming.

01:26:28.819 --> 01:26:30.760
disillusioned, I mean, his poll numbers are the

01:26:30.760 --> 01:26:33.600
absolute worst of any president at this point

01:26:33.600 --> 01:26:37.000
in their term ever, ever in the history of our

01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:40.439
country. I mean, is economics, all of the economic

01:26:40.439 --> 01:26:44.079
indicators are pointing in a downward, you know,

01:26:44.119 --> 01:26:46.560
we're looking at a possible great recession again.

01:26:47.140 --> 01:26:50.380
I mean, there's nothing there literally, you

01:26:50.380 --> 01:26:52.479
know, two, two to one, people disagree about

01:26:52.479 --> 01:26:54.380
having the ballroom put together, you know, being

01:26:54.380 --> 01:26:59.949
built. I mean, like it is there. You know, we

01:26:59.949 --> 01:27:01.369
sit back and wonder like what is going to be

01:27:01.369 --> 01:27:02.789
the breaking point? Well, I think we're starting

01:27:02.789 --> 01:27:05.069
to see that man I think with the government shutdown

01:27:05.069 --> 01:27:07.449
and like this whole rhetoric of the Democrats

01:27:07.449 --> 01:27:11.090
being the one that is you know That has somehow

01:27:11.090 --> 01:27:13.810
like got the government held hostage when the

01:27:13.810 --> 01:27:18.810
Republicans control everything You know And I

01:27:18.810 --> 01:27:21.210
think people that I do think that like, I think

01:27:21.210 --> 01:27:23.390
that people are really starting to see through

01:27:23.390 --> 01:27:25.390
the bullshit. And I mean, these farmers who are

01:27:25.390 --> 01:27:27.229
getting hit with the soybeans and I mean, like

01:27:27.229 --> 01:27:28.970
people are really beginning. It's so funny. It

01:27:28.970 --> 01:27:30.550
was like the whole, all these people who voted

01:27:30.550 --> 01:27:32.989
like, Oh, I don't care about all this. This isn't

01:27:32.989 --> 01:27:34.729
going to affect, but now it's affecting them,

01:27:35.050 --> 01:27:36.310
you know, because they thought it was going to

01:27:36.310 --> 01:27:38.510
affect, you know, Brown and black people. And

01:27:38.510 --> 01:27:42.170
now it's affecting them, you know? Well, and,

01:27:42.170 --> 01:27:44.170
and you know, I can't believe the leopard date,

01:27:44.170 --> 01:27:47.329
my face, right? It makes me, these are the same

01:27:47.329 --> 01:27:52.189
people. These are the same people who think it's

01:27:52.189 --> 01:27:55.590
funny to pick on other people and to use nicknames

01:27:55.590 --> 01:27:59.329
and employ language that denies feminine agency,

01:28:00.609 --> 01:28:05.649
grab them by the pussy. Everybody who had any

01:28:05.649 --> 01:28:08.670
kind of conscience was like, ooh. Even if they

01:28:08.670 --> 01:28:11.170
were Trump voters or Trump supporters, they saw

01:28:11.170 --> 01:28:14.529
or heard that and they're like, ooh, I don't

01:28:14.529 --> 01:28:18.720
know. The people in the MAGA sphere, They think

01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:20.619
it's hilarious. Oh, this is just Trump being

01:28:20.619 --> 01:28:24.939
a guy. Locker room talk. Literally dismissed

01:28:24.939 --> 01:28:29.960
it as locker room talk. That's boys being boys,

01:28:30.460 --> 01:28:35.079
man. Like what? and compared what 17 year olds

01:28:35.079 --> 01:28:37.659
did in high school to what a man running for

01:28:37.659 --> 01:28:39.819
the presidency of the United States had done

01:28:39.819 --> 01:28:44.460
in his old age, right? But even as he's campaigning

01:28:44.460 --> 01:28:46.800
for his second term saying things like, we're

01:28:46.800 --> 01:28:49.460
gonna protect women whether they like it or not.

01:28:50.380 --> 01:28:55.409
Like, what the hell? Like, wow. the nicknames

01:28:55.409 --> 01:28:58.010
dude the nickname oh god the nicknames that emphasize

01:28:58.010 --> 01:29:00.710
any kind of masculinity or lack of masculinity

01:29:00.710 --> 01:29:03.829
excuse me uh derive any kind of feminine empowerment

01:29:03.829 --> 01:29:07.510
or quality lil marco his secretary of state who's

01:29:07.510 --> 01:29:10.050
now just got deadness behind his eyes because

01:29:10.050 --> 01:29:16.189
he knows um sleepy joe all the nasty women nasty

01:29:16.189 --> 01:29:20.529
not not evil even in this case or not even uh

01:29:20.529 --> 01:29:23.960
deranged nasty or hysterical, hysterical. It's

01:29:23.960 --> 01:29:25.579
like, it's funny how they haven't really used

01:29:25.579 --> 01:29:27.640
hysterical. I mean, that's kind of fallen by

01:29:27.640 --> 01:29:30.039
the wayside because it's like, yeah, he's leading

01:29:30.039 --> 01:29:33.000
into this whole idea of nasty, but I mean, bro,

01:29:33.180 --> 01:29:35.520
think of like, I mean, let's, so let's go ahead

01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:37.699
and connect the dots on this one. Okay. Because,

01:29:37.819 --> 01:29:39.760
you know, this whole conversation has been about

01:29:39.760 --> 01:29:43.460
toxic masculinity and sexual, uh, pureality.

01:29:43.479 --> 01:29:47.869
Is that right? purity, purity. Ah, yes. Pure

01:29:47.869 --> 01:29:50.109
reality. Look at me making up words. No, but

01:29:50.109 --> 01:29:52.390
sexual purity. Thank you. But second purity.

01:29:52.409 --> 01:29:56.710
And I mean, like to refer to women as nasty.

01:29:57.529 --> 01:30:01.569
Like there is so much more to that. It's not

01:30:01.569 --> 01:30:04.189
just, you know, because I think for a lot of

01:30:04.189 --> 01:30:06.350
us, you know, for the longest time, we've thought

01:30:06.350 --> 01:30:08.529
about that as women who are like speaking out,

01:30:08.529 --> 01:30:11.090
you know, they're being kind of like going against

01:30:11.090 --> 01:30:13.310
the grain, you know, they're, they're just being.

01:30:13.690 --> 01:30:16.250
They're having a nasty behavior, but I mean,

01:30:16.430 --> 01:30:18.869
really he's going much further with that. I mean,

01:30:19.029 --> 01:30:20.989
the implications of he's calling them. Yeah.

01:30:21.329 --> 01:30:23.550
Yeah. Or that they're impure. You know what I'm

01:30:23.550 --> 01:30:26.689
saying? Um, yeah. And I mean, like, if we think

01:30:26.689 --> 01:30:28.369
about the history of that, I mean, like, you

01:30:28.369 --> 01:30:31.329
know, prostitutes in the old west, I mean, if

01:30:31.329 --> 01:30:33.750
they had, uh, I think it was syphilis, I mean,

01:30:33.750 --> 01:30:36.829
they would get a mark on their face so that other

01:30:36.829 --> 01:30:39.310
people knew, I mean, and it's like, he's trying

01:30:39.310 --> 01:30:44.130
to mark these women with his words. Far deeper

01:30:44.130 --> 01:30:49.289
than I think we even realize And he does it even

01:30:49.289 --> 01:30:53.670
in ways that don't immediately seem sexual right

01:30:53.670 --> 01:30:57.250
think about his general refusal Throughout the

01:30:57.250 --> 01:30:59.890
campaign and his whole base to his base was the

01:30:59.890 --> 01:31:02.970
same way the general refusal among the maggots

01:31:02.970 --> 01:31:07.359
to pronounce Kamala Harris's name correctly would

01:31:07.359 --> 01:31:09.680
not do it no matter how many times they were

01:31:09.680 --> 01:31:12.960
corrected it's Kamala not Kamala it's Kamala

01:31:12.960 --> 01:31:15.779
not Kamala no matter how many times they they

01:31:15.779 --> 01:31:19.159
were corrected they refused to say this woman's

01:31:19.159 --> 01:31:21.960
name correctly can you imagine him doing that

01:31:21.960 --> 01:31:26.079
to a man not even Obama right You know, he, instead

01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:28.640
of saying Obama's name wrong, he says his whole

01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:31.380
day. I call him Barack Hussein Obama. You know,

01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:34.880
it's constant with this guy, his refusal to pronounce

01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:37.579
women's names. You know, it's just, well, I mean,

01:31:37.680 --> 01:31:39.859
just to even like, you look even select the times

01:31:39.859 --> 01:31:42.500
that he addresses the press. Um, I think that

01:31:42.500 --> 01:31:45.359
was a recent video where a female journalist

01:31:45.359 --> 01:31:49.640
asked him a question and he said, Oh, I love

01:31:49.640 --> 01:31:52.260
when she asked me questions. Isn't she lovely?

01:31:52.319 --> 01:31:55.840
And then like. Did not answer any, did not answer

01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:57.779
any of the questions that she asked. I don't

01:31:57.779 --> 01:31:59.500
know what the question was, you know, at the

01:31:59.500 --> 01:32:02.260
top of my, at the top of my head, but, um, he

01:32:02.260 --> 01:32:04.819
just was like, look at this really pretty girl

01:32:04.819 --> 01:32:09.100
moving on. Like, and he always makes comments.

01:32:10.100 --> 01:32:11.979
Oh, yeah. Even about like political leaders about

01:32:11.979 --> 01:32:14.319
the, I mean, like, you know, throughout the global

01:32:14.319 --> 01:32:17.720
political leaders, he has talked about, Oh, she's

01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:19.260
really attractive. I'm like, man, what the fuck

01:32:19.260 --> 01:32:23.260
are you doing? Yeah, exactly. What does that

01:32:23.260 --> 01:32:26.539
have to do with anything? But this kind of discourse,

01:32:27.260 --> 01:32:29.859
it's what they think power is. It's the same

01:32:29.859 --> 01:32:32.659
kind of discourse that polices sexual deviance.

01:32:33.739 --> 01:32:37.399
They're the same ones who frame LGBTQ plus rights

01:32:37.399 --> 01:32:41.100
or drag queens reading to children at story time

01:32:41.100 --> 01:32:45.539
or any kind of gender nonconformity. They you

01:32:45.539 --> 01:32:47.479
know anything else with which they claim to be

01:32:47.479 --> 01:32:49.720
uncomfortable as not just private matters These

01:32:49.720 --> 01:32:51.939
are not just private matters. These are threats

01:32:51.939 --> 01:32:54.609
to national purity And of course the safety of

01:32:54.609 --> 01:32:56.949
children, no longer necessarily the safety of

01:32:56.949 --> 01:32:58.590
white women. I can't even bro. I can't even like,

01:32:58.770 --> 01:33:00.510
I can't even with that argument anymore. Like

01:33:00.510 --> 01:33:02.369
straight up, I can't like, don't, don't come

01:33:02.369 --> 01:33:04.050
at me with that damn argument and being like,

01:33:04.050 --> 01:33:07.750
Oh, drag queens or the LGBTQ plus community or,

01:33:07.770 --> 01:33:09.010
you know, gender nonconformity. Like I don't

01:33:09.010 --> 01:33:10.989
want to hear it. I do not want to hear it anymore.

01:33:11.210 --> 01:33:14.630
I do not want to hear that the Republican party

01:33:14.630 --> 01:33:17.449
or conservatives in this country are in any way,

01:33:17.649 --> 01:33:20.029
shape or form concerned about protecting children.

01:33:20.130 --> 01:33:22.189
Because one, they're not going to, they're not

01:33:22.189 --> 01:33:25.560
going to guns and two these men can't keep their

01:33:25.560 --> 01:33:28.159
hands off of these children man like that is

01:33:28.159 --> 01:33:32.399
not an argument that is no that it should not

01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:34.319
be a part of the like the conversation anymore

01:33:34.319 --> 01:33:38.720
absolutely not absolutely not right and these

01:33:38.720 --> 01:33:41.100
same people will continue to call back constantly

01:33:41.100 --> 01:33:43.560
to Christian purity American national purity

01:33:43.560 --> 01:33:45.939
while they're doing those kinds of heinous things

01:33:45.939 --> 01:33:48.020
to the same children that they are claiming to

01:33:48.020 --> 01:33:51.569
protect right traditional gender roles. We're

01:33:51.569 --> 01:33:53.710
not going to have trans in the military. We're

01:33:53.710 --> 01:33:56.029
not going to have women making more money. We

01:33:56.029 --> 01:33:58.489
want our gender roles to be binary and we want

01:33:58.489 --> 01:34:00.689
them to be traditional as they were back in the

01:34:00.689 --> 01:34:05.329
1950s or whatever. Any dissent at all from hetero

01:34:05.329 --> 01:34:08.590
normativity is viewed as disloyal to the MAGA

01:34:08.590 --> 01:34:12.890
culture. You can't be gay or trans or any of

01:34:12.890 --> 01:34:15.189
these things unless of course you can. If you

01:34:15.189 --> 01:34:16.989
think about like Caitlyn Jenner who says the

01:34:16.989 --> 01:34:20.369
right things let's be fair, Bruce Jenner was

01:34:20.369 --> 01:34:23.010
a Republican. It wasn't like Caitlyn Jenner wasn't

01:34:23.010 --> 01:34:27.010
going to be, right? If you think about, again,

01:34:27.090 --> 01:34:29.609
the debate over abortion and the Dobbs decision

01:34:29.609 --> 01:34:32.510
that overturned Roe v. Wade, all of this framing

01:34:32.510 --> 01:34:35.970
reproductive labor in terms of national duty,

01:34:36.810 --> 01:34:39.390
right? Echoing that same kind of fascist, you

01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:42.289
know, pro -natalism that we heard in the 20th

01:34:42.289 --> 01:34:46.130
century from Mussolini and Hitler. And in Trump

01:34:46.130 --> 01:34:49.619
himself, dude, like let's not even talk about

01:34:49.619 --> 01:34:51.520
the language. Let's not talk about his base.

01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:53.819
Let's not talk about the administration. Let's

01:34:53.819 --> 01:34:56.800
just talk about the man himself for a second.

01:34:57.520 --> 01:35:00.039
Think of how he presents himself and how he's

01:35:00.039 --> 01:35:01.979
always since. I mean, we've known this guy since

01:35:01.979 --> 01:35:04.420
the eighties, man. Think about how he's always

01:35:04.420 --> 01:35:07.279
presented himself in his oversized business suits

01:35:07.279 --> 01:35:12.140
with his power ties. Even his orange spray tan

01:35:12.140 --> 01:35:15.260
is designed to demonstrate some kind of male

01:35:15.260 --> 01:35:18.060
virility and dominance. And that's how he's always

01:35:18.060 --> 01:35:20.720
since, since I was a little kid and can remember

01:35:20.720 --> 01:35:24.340
who this guy was. That is exactly how he is always

01:35:24.340 --> 01:35:26.100
present. And if you don't believe this, if you

01:35:26.100 --> 01:35:30.819
don't believe this. Holidays are coming up. I'm

01:35:30.819 --> 01:35:32.079
going to make it easy for y 'all. I'm going to

01:35:32.079 --> 01:35:34.140
make it so easy for y 'all. Holidays are coming

01:35:34.140 --> 01:35:41.279
up. Watch Home Alone 2. Yep. You'll see the same

01:35:41.279 --> 01:35:45.680
exact man as you see today. He just looks a little

01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:47.699
bit younger. He doesn't have quite the vagina

01:35:47.699 --> 01:35:52.779
neck. Right. You know, and of course, several

01:35:52.779 --> 01:35:55.000
of his cabinet members, they echo these appearances.

01:35:55.460 --> 01:35:57.939
Um, think about all the women who end up, Oh

01:35:57.939 --> 01:36:00.279
my God, man. It's like, it's like a pandemic.

01:36:01.020 --> 01:36:04.840
I mean, seriously. Yeah. But this is what he

01:36:04.840 --> 01:36:06.880
thinks a woman is supposed to look like. And

01:36:06.880 --> 01:36:10.020
they're doing this to please him. Women who listen,

01:36:10.020 --> 01:36:12.619
I don't agree with them on their policies, but

01:36:12.619 --> 01:36:17.130
women who at one time were objectively attractive

01:36:17.130 --> 01:36:20.890
people now look fake and plastic. And it's all

01:36:20.890 --> 01:36:23.350
to please his image of what a woman should look

01:36:23.350 --> 01:36:26.909
like his vault, you know, vulgarity on the campaign

01:36:26.909 --> 01:36:30.550
trail. We curse we, you know, fuck it, we curse.

01:36:30.590 --> 01:36:32.739
But When you're running for president of the

01:36:32.739 --> 01:36:34.840
United States, you're supposed to shelve a little

01:36:34.840 --> 01:36:37.439
bit of that, right? But he doesn't care. Campaign

01:36:37.439 --> 01:36:39.640
speeches, official speeches, all of these waste

01:36:39.640 --> 01:36:42.899
with profanity and sexual innuendo talking about

01:36:42.899 --> 01:36:46.399
the size of, um, you know, uh, what's his name?

01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:50.159
The, the golf honor Palmer, honor Palmer. It's

01:36:50.159 --> 01:36:52.199
talking about the size of Arnold Palmer's penis.

01:36:52.479 --> 01:36:55.199
Like what are we, what are we talking about here?

01:36:55.289 --> 01:36:58.829
Right. But emphasizing how important it was to

01:36:58.829 --> 01:37:03.350
have a large penis, um, his association with

01:37:03.350 --> 01:37:07.710
and comments about underage women. He owned that

01:37:07.710 --> 01:37:10.350
pageant and he would go backstage and watch these

01:37:10.350 --> 01:37:14.409
young women changing out of their con, uh, pageant

01:37:14.409 --> 01:37:18.829
dresses and into, you know, um, comments about

01:37:18.829 --> 01:37:21.760
even his own daughters. you know, to emphasize

01:37:21.760 --> 01:37:25.399
their sexual attractiveness to him, not in general

01:37:25.399 --> 01:37:30.720
to him. His antipathy towards homosexuality.

01:37:30.739 --> 01:37:34.920
He says, I love the gays, but no, he's anti -pathetic

01:37:34.920 --> 01:37:39.100
towards all forms of sexual quote unquote, deviance,

01:37:39.420 --> 01:37:41.279
going all the way back to the AIDS crisis of

01:37:41.279 --> 01:37:45.380
the 1980s. He dumped off his handler, Roy Cohn.

01:37:45.689 --> 01:37:48.590
a bastard if there ever was one because the guy

01:37:48.590 --> 01:37:50.989
was gay and he got AIDS and Trump just completely

01:37:50.989 --> 01:37:52.770
abandoned him despite everything that Roy Cohn

01:37:52.770 --> 01:37:56.770
had done for Trump personally. Right? And of

01:37:56.770 --> 01:37:59.890
course, once again, the hypocrisy in spite of

01:37:59.890 --> 01:38:03.010
his movements claim on sexual purity and its

01:38:03.010 --> 01:38:07.090
ties to national strength. Trump himself is a

01:38:07.090 --> 01:38:11.390
known womanizer, a sexual abuser, a rumored sexual

01:38:11.390 --> 01:38:15.369
deviant and has been married three times. Meaning

01:38:15.369 --> 01:38:19.390
he's been divorced twice This is the guy who's

01:38:19.390 --> 01:38:24.890
the leader of this sexually pure movement and

01:38:24.890 --> 01:38:30.649
it's just The as you like to say some the audacity

01:38:30.649 --> 01:38:35.189
that people would have to believe this guy in

01:38:35.189 --> 01:38:39.510
his rhetoric When again since the 80s, this has

01:38:39.510 --> 01:38:41.680
all been front and center with Donald Trump This

01:38:41.680 --> 01:38:44.220
is nothing new. This is all who Donald Trump

01:38:44.220 --> 01:38:48.619
has always been. Yep, it is. So why does this

01:38:48.619 --> 01:38:51.800
work so well in his favor, man? Like, why has

01:38:51.800 --> 01:38:56.659
it always worked? Well, that's the thing, right?

01:38:56.880 --> 01:38:59.399
When we talk about it right now, it falls apart

01:38:59.399 --> 01:39:03.039
immediately. It's like, you know, meringue. It's

01:39:03.039 --> 01:39:07.199
it's just there's nothing to it. But as men.

01:39:07.470 --> 01:39:09.989
When we're faced with the choice about whether

01:39:09.989 --> 01:39:12.909
to join in with the performance or wait in the

01:39:12.909 --> 01:39:14.970
wings and potentially have our man card taken

01:39:14.970 --> 01:39:18.310
away, too many of us for too long have been afraid

01:39:18.310 --> 01:39:22.470
of losing our man card. Yeah. Yeah, you're right,

01:39:22.609 --> 01:39:25.130
man. I mean, and I guess, you know, for me, it's

01:39:25.130 --> 01:39:27.750
just clear that being a real man isn't what so

01:39:27.750 --> 01:39:32.130
many of us have been told it is, you know, it's

01:39:32.130 --> 01:39:34.989
it's this whole, I mean, it's the performance,

01:39:34.989 --> 01:39:37.770
right? It's about the scripts, the symbols, you

01:39:37.770 --> 01:39:40.310
know, and the systems that we all, that we buy

01:39:40.310 --> 01:39:42.869
into, you know, even if we don't want to, you

01:39:42.869 --> 01:39:46.470
know, and I mean, we've talked about it, you

01:39:46.470 --> 01:39:49.390
know, because the idea of what a real man is

01:39:49.390 --> 01:39:52.609
has shifted from like what our parents thought

01:39:52.609 --> 01:39:54.609
to what we thought to like, you know, what the

01:39:54.609 --> 01:39:58.810
current generations think. And I mean, it's clear

01:39:58.810 --> 01:40:01.369
that, you know, those systems are always shifting.

01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:04.600
You know, so like, what is a real, I mean, like,

01:40:04.760 --> 01:40:09.279
is it, what is going to be very interesting and

01:40:09.279 --> 01:40:12.300
almost hilarious is that, you know, 20 years

01:40:12.300 --> 01:40:15.079
from now, a real man is going to be someone who

01:40:15.079 --> 01:40:17.680
like openly engages in homosexual activities.

01:40:18.899 --> 01:40:21.500
Like they, like they did in Rome. I mean, are

01:40:21.500 --> 01:40:23.100
we really good? Like we're going to take it full,

01:40:23.140 --> 01:40:24.640
we're going to go full bore and just be like

01:40:24.640 --> 01:40:28.289
Rome, you know. And it'll be like, it'll be like

01:40:28.289 --> 01:40:30.250
these people now. I mean, I'm not saying like,

01:40:30.369 --> 01:40:33.829
I'm not insinuating that like the LGBTQ community

01:40:33.829 --> 01:40:37.090
like is so strong and so embraced. It's that

01:40:37.090 --> 01:40:41.949
basically like men will just start like fucking

01:40:41.949 --> 01:40:44.970
each other because that's the manly thing to

01:40:44.970 --> 01:40:50.069
do. Think of all the recent rhetoric about you

01:40:50.069 --> 01:40:52.170
know, what kind of a man goes grocery shopping

01:40:52.170 --> 01:40:56.609
with his wife. What kind of a man? Gives oral

01:40:56.609 --> 01:41:01.489
sex to his wife. These are simple, right? So

01:41:01.489 --> 01:41:03.869
well, that's that's the rhetoric among some of

01:41:03.869 --> 01:41:05.829
the people if you think about like Andrew Taylor

01:41:05.829 --> 01:41:08.489
and the things you see and how a man shouldn't

01:41:08.489 --> 01:41:11.069
submit to us If that's the case, then who do

01:41:11.069 --> 01:41:15.090
they want to submit right? I mean, right And

01:41:15.090 --> 01:41:17.489
that real man talk, Kamper suggests that that

01:41:17.489 --> 01:41:19.949
real man talk really all it is at the end of

01:41:19.949 --> 01:41:23.529
the day is a way for those with privilege, men,

01:41:23.750 --> 01:41:27.130
especially white men, to reframe the question

01:41:27.130 --> 01:41:29.770
so that they can abdicate their own responsibility.

01:41:30.090 --> 01:41:34.869
So that they can avoid looking at the real harm

01:41:34.869 --> 01:41:40.029
that we as men have always done to each other,

01:41:40.329 --> 01:41:44.039
to women, to children, to everybody. And if there's

01:41:44.039 --> 01:41:48.380
a model of a real man, so to speak, it likely

01:41:48.380 --> 01:41:50.640
has a lot less to do with scripts, symbols and

01:41:50.640 --> 01:41:54.000
systems and more to do with taking responsibility

01:41:54.000 --> 01:41:55.939
for those harms and suffering that have been

01:41:55.939 --> 01:41:59.600
caused by the patriarchy. Yeah, I think being

01:41:59.600 --> 01:42:01.659
accountable. Yeah. And I think that, you know,

01:42:01.779 --> 01:42:04.380
camper like nailed it. I mean, honestly, I mean,

01:42:04.380 --> 01:42:07.439
I think that is right. And I think that is probably

01:42:07.439 --> 01:42:11.439
what I was alluding to. You know, um, it is that,

01:42:11.439 --> 01:42:15.119
you know, It is taking accountability for your

01:42:15.119 --> 01:42:17.939
mistakes is being able to say you're wrong is

01:42:17.939 --> 01:42:20.180
being able to say you're sorry and I'm not just

01:42:20.180 --> 01:42:22.899
saying to your spouse I mean I say it's my kids

01:42:22.899 --> 01:42:24.619
you know like there have been times where I have

01:42:24.619 --> 01:42:27.260
absolutely fumbled the bag you know with while

01:42:27.260 --> 01:42:30.539
we have handled something with my kids and when

01:42:30.539 --> 01:42:33.619
I do. I will acknowledge that with them and I'll

01:42:33.619 --> 01:42:35.479
tell them, you know, like I am not perfect. I

01:42:35.479 --> 01:42:37.359
am going to make mistakes, you know, and when

01:42:37.359 --> 01:42:39.579
I do, and I know that I'm going to apologize.

01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:41.600
I have literally had to tell my kids, like, I

01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:45.399
am sorry for how I reacted, you know, or how

01:42:45.399 --> 01:42:50.159
I acted in that situation. I was completely wrong.

01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:52.960
You were completely right. You know, and like

01:42:52.960 --> 01:42:54.819
think about that, what that think about like

01:42:54.819 --> 01:42:56.680
the hump, like really think about the humility

01:42:56.680 --> 01:42:57.920
that that's going to have to take, you know,

01:42:57.920 --> 01:43:01.960
as a dad, as a, as a man, as an adult to go to

01:43:01.960 --> 01:43:05.220
your child and just be like, no, no, you were

01:43:05.220 --> 01:43:09.020
right. I was so wrong. Especially when we didn't

01:43:09.020 --> 01:43:11.140
experience that. Oh no, no, man. That was, I

01:43:11.140 --> 01:43:12.939
mean, the first time I ever did it, it was so

01:43:12.939 --> 01:43:14.720
weird. I was like, this is the weirdest thing

01:43:14.720 --> 01:43:17.180
ever, but I was like, this is what I have to,

01:43:17.180 --> 01:43:18.960
it was like eating. It was eating at me. It was

01:43:18.960 --> 01:43:21.250
like, It was like, I know I had messed up, you

01:43:21.250 --> 01:43:24.409
know, and like, I have to go like, not make this

01:43:24.409 --> 01:43:26.850
right, you know, because it was like, it's not

01:43:26.850 --> 01:43:28.789
going to take away what I did, but it's going

01:43:28.789 --> 01:43:31.630
to explain to my children or to my child at the

01:43:31.630 --> 01:43:35.609
time that like, you were not at fault. You know

01:43:35.609 --> 01:43:37.569
what I'm saying? This was me handling a situation

01:43:37.569 --> 01:43:42.409
very, very poorly, you know, and you were, you

01:43:42.409 --> 01:43:45.260
got caught in the cross hairs and. You know,

01:43:45.359 --> 01:43:47.119
and even if they're like, you know, as a kid

01:43:47.119 --> 01:43:49.079
wants to, I'm sure. I mean, I know I did too.

01:43:49.159 --> 01:43:51.140
Oh, it's okay. And I'm like, no, no, no, it is

01:43:51.140 --> 01:43:53.920
not. Okay. It is not okay. The way that what

01:43:53.920 --> 01:43:56.399
I did to you, you know, and I appreciate your

01:43:56.399 --> 01:44:01.699
grace, but. You know, right. So yeah, you know,

01:44:01.720 --> 01:44:03.939
sounds like you're into that. Well, I try, man.

01:44:04.100 --> 01:44:06.840
I try, you know, and I certainly mess up and

01:44:06.840 --> 01:44:09.380
I will continue to mess up and, you know, and

01:44:09.380 --> 01:44:11.460
I will continue to try. I mean, I think that's

01:44:11.460 --> 01:44:14.460
the beauty of. who I am as a person, you know,

01:44:14.699 --> 01:44:16.579
in the sense of like, I am a lifelong learner.

01:44:17.500 --> 01:44:19.739
I like to learn new things. I mean, you know,

01:44:19.779 --> 01:44:23.060
certainly I get stuck in my ways and in the status

01:44:23.060 --> 01:44:25.859
quo, the status quo does feel really good sometimes,

01:44:25.859 --> 01:44:29.479
but you know, like I, I just want to improve,

01:44:29.840 --> 01:44:33.039
you know, so let's come it all back to, to back

01:44:33.039 --> 01:44:35.640
to, to, you know, our conversation about, you

01:44:35.640 --> 01:44:39.140
know, masculinity and, and the concept of it

01:44:39.140 --> 01:44:42.840
all, you know, the, the thing that just really,

01:44:42.840 --> 01:44:46.520
after everything we've talked about today, that

01:44:46.520 --> 01:44:49.859
just weighs on me, I guess, like the question,

01:44:49.859 --> 01:44:55.180
you know, is that, I mean, we asked, I asked

01:44:55.180 --> 01:44:58.680
this at the top, you know, who makes these rules,

01:44:58.840 --> 01:45:04.579
but really like who gets to decide what masculinity

01:45:04.579 --> 01:45:13.380
means? Yeah. Um, That's the big question. And

01:45:13.380 --> 01:45:19.819
maybe nobody should. Maybe nobody can for anybody

01:45:19.819 --> 01:45:23.680
except themselves. And maybe in the long run,

01:45:23.899 --> 01:45:26.279
a more important question is what does it mean

01:45:26.279 --> 01:45:30.739
to be a good person? This is not just theory

01:45:30.739 --> 01:45:33.659
that we're discussing here. This is the world

01:45:33.659 --> 01:45:37.770
we're living in. These ideas, these actions,

01:45:37.930 --> 01:45:40.930
they shape policies, they shape identities, they

01:45:40.930 --> 01:45:44.750
impact the lives that people live. And they aren't

01:45:44.750 --> 01:45:49.430
going away. So don't just listen to what we're

01:45:49.430 --> 01:45:54.050
saying. Put it into practice. Help us dismantle

01:45:54.050 --> 01:45:58.149
traditional notions of masculinity. Engage with

01:45:58.149 --> 01:46:01.010
centers for masculinity studies at universities

01:46:01.010 --> 01:46:04.989
like Stanford and Stony Brook. Share this episode

01:46:04.989 --> 01:46:07.470
and the show in general with your friends and

01:46:07.470 --> 01:46:10.590
your coworkers, challenge the narratives about

01:46:10.590 --> 01:46:13.310
masculinity and appropriate sexual matters in

01:46:13.310 --> 01:46:16.470
our society and speak up when and where it matters.

01:46:17.229 --> 01:46:18.949
Absolutely. I mean, I think that's incredibly

01:46:18.949 --> 01:46:22.449
important, you know, is, is speaking up, you

01:46:22.449 --> 01:46:25.170
know, when, you know, not so much when you see

01:46:25.170 --> 01:46:27.590
the injustices, but when you see some of that,

01:46:27.590 --> 01:46:33.239
you know, toxic masculinity kind of of creeping

01:46:33.239 --> 01:46:35.819
its ugly head into conversations. I mean, you

01:46:35.819 --> 01:46:37.720
know, just be like, ah, no, that's not cool,

01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:40.060
man. You know, cause it's not, you know, and

01:46:40.060 --> 01:46:42.380
I mean, it's interesting. Um, you know, as we

01:46:42.380 --> 01:46:44.779
really start to, you know, as we wrap up the,

01:46:44.779 --> 01:46:47.579
uh, the conversation today. Cause you think about

01:46:47.579 --> 01:46:51.720
again, you know, who, who decides what this is,

01:46:51.760 --> 01:46:53.479
what does this look like? You know, and I think

01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:55.279
you made a great point, Jamie is that, you know,

01:46:55.300 --> 01:46:57.359
it's really more of the question of who is a

01:46:57.359 --> 01:47:00.460
good person. And I mean, you know, I think if

01:47:00.460 --> 01:47:03.899
we could look at a stereotype. You know, in modern

01:47:03.899 --> 01:47:07.020
society that I think we could look to is probably

01:47:07.020 --> 01:47:11.079
like, not the epitome of by no means, but you

01:47:11.079 --> 01:47:15.399
know, might not be a bad, uh, role model is John

01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:19.640
Wick, man, because dude could fight like nobody's

01:47:19.640 --> 01:47:21.880
business. He was tough, right? He was not taken

01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:25.859
advantage of man, but like, he did all of that

01:47:25.859 --> 01:47:30.380
because they killed his dog, man. I mean, that's

01:47:30.380 --> 01:47:34.319
emotion. And he shows it. Yeah. You know, and

01:47:34.319 --> 01:47:37.859
he shows it in, in, in the most, in the most,

01:47:37.859 --> 01:47:42.159
yes, visceral ways. But I mean, nah, I mean,

01:47:42.260 --> 01:47:44.939
it's a heavy topic for sure. And I think that,

01:47:44.939 --> 01:47:48.479
you know, it's one that really like resonates

01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:51.380
with me because, you know, I know I've been a

01:47:51.380 --> 01:47:54.340
victim of it, you know, on both sides of people

01:47:54.340 --> 01:47:57.039
who were, you know, in that time. toxic masculinity.

01:47:57.039 --> 01:47:59.539
And I mean, I've, I've certainly lived some of

01:47:59.539 --> 01:48:02.739
those ideas, uh, you know, in my own life, you

01:48:02.739 --> 01:48:05.520
know, as a, at an earlier age. Um, and I mean,

01:48:05.640 --> 01:48:10.220
thank God I grew out of it, but, um, you know,

01:48:10.260 --> 01:48:12.539
it's important, like, you know, like we said,

01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:15.420
you know, to make sure that you do speak up when

01:48:15.420 --> 01:48:18.560
you, when you notice it, um, that is one of the

01:48:18.560 --> 01:48:22.479
best ways to stop it. It really is because when

01:48:22.479 --> 01:48:26.340
people get called out, I mean, even You know,

01:48:26.640 --> 01:48:31.159
alpha bros, I mean, embarrassment is still a

01:48:31.159 --> 01:48:34.560
real thing, man. You know, it really is. I mean,

01:48:34.979 --> 01:48:38.920
despite what you see on the internet, you know,

01:48:39.039 --> 01:48:41.819
in everyday life, it still has some, it does.

01:48:42.779 --> 01:48:45.520
So as always, you know, we'd love to hear from

01:48:45.520 --> 01:48:48.560
you guys. So please visit, visit us on all socials,

01:48:48.579 --> 01:48:50.119
you know, let us about the other, let us know

01:48:50.119 --> 01:48:51.960
about the other things that you'd like to discuss

01:48:51.960 --> 01:48:55.109
or like to hear about. I mean, you know, continue

01:48:55.109 --> 01:48:58.369
to enjoy real conversations about important and

01:48:58.369 --> 01:49:01.869
often desperate things. I mean, you know, we

01:49:01.869 --> 01:49:03.930
are really doing our best to build a community

01:49:03.930 --> 01:49:07.369
of resistance and we absolutely won't shy away

01:49:07.369 --> 01:49:11.050
from the tough stuff. That's right. And we've

01:49:11.050 --> 01:49:13.529
got more tough stuff on the way. Join us for

01:49:13.529 --> 01:49:16.850
our next episode, all about the appeal of populism

01:49:16.850 --> 01:49:19.949
and how fascists often disguise themselves as

01:49:19.949 --> 01:49:23.649
men of the people. Until then. Thanks for listening.

01:49:23.930 --> 01:49:27.710
Alright, stay sharp, stay bold, keep being you,

01:49:28.569 --> 01:49:32.689
fight the good fight, and you know it as always.

01:49:33.149 --> 01:49:42.210
Keep it weird, y 'all. Yes, yes. Thank you for

01:49:42.210 --> 01:49:45.130
listening to Weird, Wicked, and Wild. This episode

01:49:45.130 --> 01:49:48.789
was hosted by your buds, Jimmy and Jeremy. Research

01:49:48.789 --> 01:49:55.020
and Writing by Dr. James Wills. We'd love to

01:49:55.020 --> 01:49:57.939
hear from you. Subscribe, rate, and review us

01:49:57.939 --> 01:50:01.220
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01:50:01.220 --> 01:50:04.460
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01:50:04.460 --> 01:50:04.939
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