WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:05.200 Hi there Internet, it's me Ruby Ray and I wanted 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.639 to preempt this episode with a little bit of 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:10.580 an apology. I'm really sorry about the audio 00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:13.519 quality. This episode has been sitting with me 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.239 for almost a month and I've been extremely busy 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:20.320 at work. I've tried my best to clean up the audio 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:23.000 as much as I can but there's a lot of clipping 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:28.399 through. Still I felt like I wanted to post this. 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.879 Regardless, I'm going to chop it up into smaller, 00:00:31.940 --> 00:00:37.399 more palatable bits for YouTube. But the full 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:42.420 thing is going to be here on the podcast channels. 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:45.780 So thank you for listening. If you like this 00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:49.020 kind of content and you're watching on YouTube, 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:53.640 I have another YouTube channel called Ruby Raid, 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:56.979 where I speak specifically about my life. It's 00:00:56.979 --> 00:01:01.679 a little bit. more free because it's not dependent 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.819 on guests. Anyway, I do have another episode 00:01:04.819 --> 00:01:07.239 that will be coming out very shortly after this 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:10.560 one. So I hope you enjoy that. We welcome back 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:15.560 Ryan, who is now officially a neurosurgeon, he 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:20.200 says. Anyway, thank you for listening. Do like, 00:01:20.420 --> 00:01:22.620 comment, subscribe and share. If you want us 00:01:22.620 --> 00:01:24.920 to talk about something specific, please let 00:01:24.920 --> 00:02:19.330 me know. Bye. Love you and enjoy. Hello folks, 00:02:19.430 --> 00:02:24.409 I'm Luigi, and I think baby hippos are some of 00:02:24.409 --> 00:02:27.099 the cutest things on the planet. Wait, have you 00:02:27.099 --> 00:02:31.879 seen the Sleepy Hippo video? Sleepy Hippo video? 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:35.699 I haven't. No. Okay. I'm going to have to find 00:02:35.699 --> 00:02:42.340 it. All right. Make it happen. And then we are 00:02:42.340 --> 00:02:46.740 joined by... Hey, I'm Nora. I'm like Ruby said, 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:49.400 I'm a behavioral geneticist or I'm studying to 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:51.520 become a behavioral geneticist and I'm based 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:55.939 in South Africa. Excellent. When I first spoke 00:02:55.939 --> 00:03:01.719 to you, can I say how we met? Yeah, yeah. Okay. 00:03:02.620 --> 00:03:08.300 Nora and I are on a Discord server together, 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:12.219 and I like to go onto the Discord server while 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:16.259 I walk my dog. That's my go -to thing to do. 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.039 Some people listen to podcasts. When I'm not 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.490 in podcasts, I'm not listening to podcasts. I'm 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:26.009 talking to people and looking for people to bring 00:03:26.009 --> 00:03:31.330 onto my podcast. What happened was Nora said, 00:03:32.229 --> 00:03:34.270 next time you're on, let me know and I'll try 00:03:34.270 --> 00:03:37.750 and be on. And that didn't happen, kind of. And 00:03:37.750 --> 00:03:39.849 then the other day we were on and you were like, 00:03:39.870 --> 00:03:44.110 yes, I'm here. We spoke for like three hours. 00:03:45.289 --> 00:03:52.280 Amazing. What brought you to that server? So 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.580 basically the server we were on is basically 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:58.900 one of the only platforms I've been able to find 00:03:58.900 --> 00:04:02.080 that's like a specific queer space for South 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.500 Africans. And that's like, it's specifically 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:06.960 trans focused, but it's like, it's a nice space. 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.000 And also just like meeting people from your own 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:11.979 country that are part of the same community as 00:04:11.979 --> 00:04:16.120 you. Exactly. One of the best things about me 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.959 as a trans woman living alone in China with only 00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:24.730 It's the standard Luigi for company. You're not 00:04:24.730 --> 00:04:27.649 living alone. I'm living alone. You've got a 00:04:27.649 --> 00:04:31.089 great life. I'm really envious. I tried. You 00:04:31.089 --> 00:04:34.069 can, all you have to do is go out and make a 00:04:34.069 --> 00:04:39.230 drink. Yeah, for real. Yeah. Nora, there's a 00:04:39.230 --> 00:04:45.430 running gag on this show where Luigi is misanthropic. 00:04:46.209 --> 00:04:51.910 No, I love people. He's spending money. What's 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:55.230 the term? Hate it. Is there a psychological term 00:04:55.230 --> 00:04:58.389 for it? Probably, probably is. I haven't defined 00:04:58.389 --> 00:05:02.670 it. Let me note that down. And then in the future, 00:05:02.730 --> 00:05:07.689 I will self -diagnose. Pure obsessive -compulsive, 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:11.930 maybe. Manifest as a fear of spending money. 00:05:12.449 --> 00:05:17.129 Really hurts for me to spend money. I'm like 00:05:17.129 --> 00:05:22.110 a bad Ebenezer Scrooge. I don't know if it hurt 00:05:22.110 --> 00:05:25.829 Ebenezer Scrooge to spend money. But that's my 00:05:25.829 --> 00:05:29.230 segue to talk about the theme of today's episode 00:05:29.230 --> 00:05:32.509 and probably maybe the next few ones, because 00:05:32.509 --> 00:05:35.970 the decor won't change. Okay. It's Christmas. 00:05:36.670 --> 00:05:39.850 It's still Christmas in my heart. It's the late 00:05:39.850 --> 00:05:43.089 Christmas episode. It's because we missed Christmas. 00:05:44.629 --> 00:05:48.449 Yeah. Luigi feels the sultry. Yeah. I really 00:05:48.449 --> 00:05:50.149 like the Christmas season, and I know for some 00:05:50.149 --> 00:05:53.230 people it might be painful, but I'm going gang 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:58.089 buster on decorating. And yes, it's still up, 00:05:58.230 --> 00:06:02.689 and that's because in China, they don't have 00:06:02.689 --> 00:06:07.170 their New Year for another month. So for me, 00:06:07.290 --> 00:06:09.449 it's a reason, you know, to keep up with the 00:06:09.449 --> 00:06:12.750 festivities. I get to pretend it's Christmas 00:06:12.750 --> 00:06:17.009 a little longer. All right. Okay, we won't mention 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:19.240 it again. Oh, the viewers will just have to endure 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:24.519 my decor, my table runners, my beautiful, you 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:30.519 know, little red trees. Wow. It's been five minutes 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.839 and we've been babbling. There are segments that 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:39.879 we're missing. Nora, when we begin this, um, 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:43.100 we have a quick fire round, couple of questions, 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:48.579 just a roundabout. I'll start. We all answer 00:06:48.579 --> 00:06:54.379 the same question and try and keep that to like 00:06:54.379 --> 00:07:00.199 one set. Is that okay for you? Yeah. Yeah, that's 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.100 completely fine. You go first. Why did you study 00:07:03.100 --> 00:07:06.420 what you wanted to study? You mean in school? 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:13.560 Yes, in university. Because I'm a fool. So I 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:18.790 was always kind of... academically like lost 00:07:18.790 --> 00:07:21.970 when I came to university. I don't know if I 00:07:21.970 --> 00:07:23.629 really studied what I really wanted to study. 00:07:23.829 --> 00:07:26.470 I think I did, but also kind of didn't. So I 00:07:26.470 --> 00:07:29.170 studied, I must have changed my major a billion 00:07:29.170 --> 00:07:32.550 times. So for me to answer that question honestly, 00:07:32.649 --> 00:07:34.670 I don't know if it's the honest answer because 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:38.110 I think I was just, it's weird. I'm academically 00:07:38.110 --> 00:07:41.730 minded, but I don't think I was supposed to. 00:07:41.769 --> 00:07:44.149 I don't think I was meant for university. That 00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:45.930 sounds really strange. Sounds like a paradox. 00:07:47.089 --> 00:07:49.269 I took English literature at first, and then 00:07:49.269 --> 00:07:54.689 I changed to economics, and then I changed to 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:58.269 environmental studies, and then I went back into 00:07:58.269 --> 00:08:01.589 literature, and then I changed into rhetoric. 00:08:02.610 --> 00:08:04.670 So I was just chronically changing my degree. 00:08:05.629 --> 00:08:07.209 Because I really didn't know what to do with 00:08:07.209 --> 00:08:09.709 my life. I mean, technically, I guess I still 00:08:09.709 --> 00:08:12.379 don't. And the difference is... Now I've just 00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:16.959 settled into it. So I have a lot of majors and 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.560 my graduate degree was in, it was called cultural 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.120 analysis and social theory. It was just cultural 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:29.639 studies, which is kind of like an umbrella area 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.500 of study. It combines all humanity subjects. 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:37.259 So again, just speaks to my lack of direction 00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:41.500 even still. Sorry, that was a long answer. Right, 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.960 thanks for that one sentence. My bad. I blew 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.279 it. I already messed up. English! I studied it 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:56.360 because I like poetry. We'll delve into that 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.120 a bit later. Nora, why did you study what you 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:03.870 wanted to study? I kind of went into genetics 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:06.730 because it's one of the newer sciences, I guess, 00:09:06.850 --> 00:09:09.429 and we're still learning so much about it. So 00:09:09.429 --> 00:09:11.350 my thought process was I'm interested in the 00:09:11.350 --> 00:09:14.210 subject. There's good career growth opportunity 00:09:14.210 --> 00:09:17.070 and opportunity for the field to develop. And 00:09:17.070 --> 00:09:19.649 also there's just a lot of career opportunities, 00:09:19.909 --> 00:09:21.429 like in general, like different jobs you can 00:09:21.429 --> 00:09:24.450 do with a basic genetics degree. and then specialize 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:27.169 further. So it allowed me flexibility while still 00:09:27.169 --> 00:09:29.450 being something I'm interested in with a higher 00:09:29.450 --> 00:09:32.230 earning potential. What a practical answer. Yeah, 00:09:32.389 --> 00:09:36.470 that's a great answer. Yeah, you got a good hand 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:44.850 on your shoulders. I studied communication and 00:09:44.850 --> 00:09:48.289 even though I am now running a podcast and it 00:09:48.289 --> 00:09:51.149 seems like that's exactly what I study. Yeah. 00:09:52.130 --> 00:09:55.769 It's not. I studied like marketing. And the reason 00:09:55.769 --> 00:09:58.429 I studied what I studied is because it's flexible. 00:09:58.669 --> 00:10:01.830 I wanted something super, super flexible. And 00:10:01.830 --> 00:10:06.909 I feel like I achieved that. I think that communications 00:10:06.909 --> 00:10:11.149 has a lot of transdisciplinary qualities in terms 00:10:11.149 --> 00:10:12.929 of like market. Yeah. Okay. I get it. Are you 00:10:12.929 --> 00:10:15.909 punning? No, that's not pun. That's the necessary 00:10:15.909 --> 00:10:20.899 word. You know, communications has to do with 00:10:20.899 --> 00:10:24.440 marketing, it has to do with, um, what's that 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.500 other word? Like when you're like in charge of 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:30.039 a celebrity and you do all the talking for them, 00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:32.940 PR. Public relations, yeah. Public relations, 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.840 thank you. So yeah, I mean, rhetoric's kind of, 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.139 rhetoric does draw a lot on communications. A 00:10:39.139 --> 00:10:44.379 lot of the classes I took in university were 00:10:44.379 --> 00:10:47.659 alongside communication. I don't know why. My 00:10:47.659 --> 00:10:49.960 program technically was, I think, communications, 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:56.220 even though it was called rhetoric. Anyway. That's... 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:59.659 Nora, do you have a question for us? A quickfire 00:10:59.659 --> 00:11:05.879 question. It can be fun. Yeah. I don't know. 00:11:06.299 --> 00:11:08.799 It's so interesting to hear your stories because, 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.620 like, we have such different approaches to what 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:16.970 we studied. You in communication. us STEM majors, 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:19.149 and also like any humanities subjects, us STEM 00:11:19.149 --> 00:11:22.169 majors just like making fun of humanities because 00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:24.269 it's just a little rivalry. Yeah. So did you 00:11:24.269 --> 00:11:27.370 have any of those, um, like little rivalries 00:11:27.370 --> 00:11:29.690 with any of your STEM friends while studying 00:11:29.690 --> 00:11:32.110 or did you not really interact with people in 00:11:32.110 --> 00:11:36.470 that sense? Okay. Well, you touched on something 00:11:36.470 --> 00:11:43.149 major because, so what I studied is not technically 00:11:45.269 --> 00:11:49.090 Um, it's, it's not, obviously it's not STEM. 00:11:49.429 --> 00:11:53.950 It was managed, it was commercial from degree. 00:11:54.990 --> 00:12:01.190 Um, but I was registered for international relations 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:07.090 for the entirety of my study until the exam was 00:12:07.090 --> 00:12:11.549 written. And that was because I suck at maths. 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:17.720 Really? Yeah, I had dyscalculia. I feel like 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:21.159 you told me this before. Yeah, HRT has basically 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:25.019 eliminated that. Now you can do math? Now I can 00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:27.320 do found the cure for dyscalculia, it's HRT. 00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:34.580 I can read numbers better. So anyway, yeah, all 00:12:34.580 --> 00:12:38.860 of my studies, I was registered for BK Relations. 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.799 And then after my last exam, I walked into the 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.340 office like, look, I have none of the credits 00:12:49.340 --> 00:12:52.340 for this. All of the credits for this changed 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:57.539 me. And they did. But to answer your question, 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:02.000 I'm still my best, most persistent friend from 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:10.179 high school is a senior software in a cloud service. 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.220 I had good relations with most of the STEM people 00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:17.480 and almost zero relations with any of my own. 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:21.799 Me? I don't know. Also, I had deep shame for 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:25.480 being in the humanities because I went to a school 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:29.039 that was famous for engineering and math. Um, 00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:34.820 but I was also very aware that what I studied 00:13:34.820 --> 00:13:39.419 wouldn't necessarily result in a fruitful career 00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:42.740 or at least one. That's what I thought 20 years 00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:48.440 ago. But I find nowadays because of social media 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:50.759 and AI and all this stuff, it's actually, I think 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.860 now humanities graduates do pretty well. The 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:59.919 landscape changed. But I don't recall having 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:05.179 any peers that were engineers like that that 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:08.039 I hung out with. But I mean, everybody here in 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:13.149 the humanities. You're kind of not. Like you 00:14:13.149 --> 00:14:16.409 were like a social pariah. Yeah. And scoffed 00:14:16.409 --> 00:14:19.889 at. That was my undergrad. But my grad was a 00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:22.929 different school. Great place. Loved it. They're 00:14:22.929 --> 00:14:25.610 like science. What's that? Get out of here. And 00:14:25.610 --> 00:14:28.809 you studied a whole bunch of... Whole bunch of 00:14:28.809 --> 00:14:33.610 queer, queer color folk. Yep. And that's kind 00:14:33.610 --> 00:14:40.169 of, kind of a lot of where... I found the comfort 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:47.090 in building now long. Friendship. Oh, you're 00:14:47.090 --> 00:14:49.470 back. Yeah, sorry. I just received a phone call. 00:14:49.509 --> 00:14:52.149 I told people not to bother me, but sometimes 00:14:52.149 --> 00:14:54.549 people don't respect your time or your wishes. 00:14:54.889 --> 00:14:57.190 You're just too popular. They're just my grandparents, 00:14:57.370 --> 00:15:02.070 but yeah, I told them not to bother me. Invite 00:15:02.070 --> 00:15:06.730 them on. Yeah, bring them on. They're South African 00:15:06.730 --> 00:15:10.779 old people. They aren't suited for this type 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:13.580 of climate, I guess, if that makes sense. Yeah, 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:17.159 I mean, coming from conservative South Africa 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:22.480 myself. What about your relationship with, I 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:27.700 guess, cross -disciplinary students? The echo 00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:30.000 kind of made that a bit difficult to understand. 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:32.340 Would you mind just repeating the question? Sorry. 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:37.340 Sure. I mean, it's your own question. You you 00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:44.460 asked you asked us about The act relationship 00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:50.240 Yeah, I don't I just I'm part of this like day 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.500 residence where it's just a bunch of like a group 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:54.860 of people that interact daily So we get to interact 00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:57.379 with a bunch of different majors and stuff. So 00:15:57.379 --> 00:16:01.480 it's just fun having a little rivalry between 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.460 the humanities and the stem students because 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.019 it's only with my friends, but They like to say 00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.200 we have no emotional intelligence, and we like 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.440 to say they can't do math. So we just like to 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.539 playfully tease one another, I guess. Okay. That's 00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:25.139 cool. Real simple. Ready? Cosplay or no cosplay? 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:30.500 Cosplay. Do I have to answer next? Nora, you 00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:34.659 answer. Go! Like, cosplay or no cosplay? Like, 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.139 do I like cosplay? Yeah. Sure. Interpret however 00:16:39.139 --> 00:16:41.220 you see fit. I've never done it, but I love it 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:43.299 when other people do it because they're so good 00:16:43.299 --> 00:16:47.220 at it. Like, sometimes recently I saw this, like, 00:16:47.419 --> 00:16:49.980 Springtrap cosplay with, like, the full animatronic 00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:51.639 suit that they were able to, like, articulate 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:54.700 and move in. That's really cool. But personally, 00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:57.860 I don't think I'd ever do it, if that makes sense. 00:16:58.100 --> 00:16:59.960 I don't know if I could do it either. I mean, 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:02.799 I know people do it, but sometimes... Kind of 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:04.940 freaks me out, but that's just me. What can I 00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:09.980 say? I love cosplay. I cosplay whenever I get 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:12.960 the opportunity. Whenever I get the opportunity. 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.059 I was bad a moment ago, but it's better now that 00:17:20.059 --> 00:17:34.299 you're talking. Okay, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:39.140 I'm going to move on to the next segment of today's 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:42.680 podcast and that is to share perspectives. And 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.539 honestly, I had such a great perspective lined 00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:50.940 up while I was driving here today and I completely 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:53.279 forgot about it. So I'm going to bring it back 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:56.500 to my experience in something that I'm struggling 00:17:56.500 --> 00:18:01.930 with right now. And that is this. live in China. 00:18:02.869 --> 00:18:05.990 I have applied to have my gender name, gender 00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:09.910 marker and name changed in South Africa and I 00:18:09.910 --> 00:18:16.109 have spent close to a thousand RMB trying just 00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:19.529 to call the Department of Home Affairs in my 00:18:19.529 --> 00:18:23.329 country to find out if my changes have been done. 00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:28.450 I have spent hours and hours on hold and my perspectives 00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:34.160 is this. All phone calls should be free and all 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.859 telephonic companies should be government owned 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:40.920 and publicly sponsored. There should be no such 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:44.180 thing as a telecommunications company unless 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:47.539 you want to upgrade. Free phone calls internationally 00:18:47.539 --> 00:18:51.640 for everyone. That's the only way that the future 00:18:51.640 --> 00:19:02.490 happens. Okay. Not to a mad lot. No. Okay. Hi. 00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:49.750 I'm trying to So, I mean, it'd be nice. Yes, 00:19:49.869 --> 00:19:53.069 the phone companies are owned by China, but I 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:57.210 am not DHA. Okay. Change of my perspectives. 00:19:57.509 --> 00:20:00.869 Governments should all have video IP services 00:20:00.869 --> 00:20:03.789 to phone. What does it feel like? Voice over 00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:16.430 IP. Should I explain? If you want. And I think 00:20:16.430 --> 00:20:18.990 I also, I'm not completely sure. The technical 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:22.049 side of things has always eluded me. I am a biology 00:20:22.049 --> 00:20:25.069 nerd through and through. All of this stuff about 00:20:25.069 --> 00:20:27.009 like people talking about their computers and 00:20:27.009 --> 00:20:30.630 stuff. It just flies over my head. Okay. As the 00:20:30.630 --> 00:20:35.390 IT person then, voiceover IP means it's internet 00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:38.960 phone. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's internet phone. Whenever 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.460 you phone someone with voice to like another 00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:43.880 thing, it uses an IP address to route instead 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.700 of the conventional phone services. I'm all for 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:54.819 it. I don't know. My perspective on what you 00:20:54.819 --> 00:20:57.079 said would kind of be like, because I feel like 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.720 as a South African, I kind of have a bit of a 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:01.940 more unique experience with the government side, 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.140 where if you leave anything to our government, 00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:08.660 it probably isn't going to be that great. I mean, 00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:10.720 our public health services, our train services, 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.000 or anything. So if I were to be in a country 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.019 where I know the government has low levels of 00:21:17.019 --> 00:21:19.940 corruption, actually uses funds for what they 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:23.099 have to, then I would agree to that. But I don't 00:21:23.099 --> 00:21:26.519 really trust my government to build the infrastructure 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.440 and maintain the infrastructure that would allow 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:35.019 these things to function. Happy. That is a super 00:21:35.019 --> 00:21:40.549 valid point. It is. I think that what's happened 00:21:40.549 --> 00:21:44.490 in South Africa is there has been such a focus 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:47.589 on, on companies doing it. We have, we have three 00:21:47.589 --> 00:21:51.089 major companies. They're called Tolcom, Selsy, 00:21:51.250 --> 00:21:55.009 MTN04, and Vodacom. These three companies are 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:58.690 partially government owned already, but they 00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:03.200 are so corrupt. That Vodacom, for example, got 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.799 kicked out of Nigeria for overcharging for cell 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.119 phone services because they were just like, that 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:10.980 government there was, we're not having this. 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:14.000 Meanwhile, in South Africa, they are fleecing 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.319 us on prices to a degree that's just really not 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:24.019 acceptable. Think paying, I paid 2000 RMB or 00:22:24.019 --> 00:22:52.470 a thousand RMB. That's about 2000 grand. Yeah 00:22:52.470 --> 00:22:57.150 I came like like Maybe like a thousand rb a month 00:22:57.150 --> 00:23:00.470 Just to use the phone Internet. I don't even 00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:04.809 know they have you subscribe to As far as I know 00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:07.230 it's packages that include the phone in the you 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:11.700 can't separate them. Even like television. Well, 00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:16.819 you might just use it for two minutes. Of course, 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.740 there are smaller companies that try and circumvent 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:25.980 that. Like you pay 200 RMB a month for internet. 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:28.720 The viewers don't really understand that money, 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:34.579 do they, Ruby? 200 RMB a month is 400 Rand or... 00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.839 30 US dollars. Yeah, 30 US dollars, which I think 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.099 is pretty cheap, pretty affordable for American. 00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:48.279 Yeah, expensive. Anyway. Yeah. I kind of think 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.440 that's my whole perspective. It's not a great 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:57.160 one today. Don't admit it. Yeah, I don't, I'm 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.759 more so for, I guess, socio as like a socialist, 00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:02.680 capitalist, make sure where we still have that 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.569 drive. to motivate people, but like a universal 00:24:05.569 --> 00:24:10.289 basic income along with education, housing, food, 00:24:10.869 --> 00:24:13.690 all of that stuff. So I apply that to a lot of 00:24:13.690 --> 00:24:15.430 concepts in the sense of like what we were just 00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:17.829 talking about, like it should be free. I believe 00:24:17.829 --> 00:24:19.789 that everybody should have access to it, but 00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:23.210 then you have taxes, for instance, that help 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:24.769 maintain the infrastructure. Like you're still 00:24:24.769 --> 00:24:27.329 paying for it in some way. It's moderated by 00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:29.809 a government body and not for a for -profit company. 00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:34.759 Remind me, YouTube, South Africa. leans towards 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:39.400 socialism or capitalism? Socialism, I'd say socialism. 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:45.079 There you go. I mean, good, but also from what 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:49.059 you guys tell me, it's pretty corrupt. I guess 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:52.160 you can kind of think about it as pre -World 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.400 War II Russia or World War II Russia, where this 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.240 system was hijacked by a couple of corrupt companies 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.150 and driving it in a specific direction. that 00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:06.910 nobody wanted. A little bit, yeah, but I kind 00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:11.390 of think even though where we live is not communist 00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:14.569 and neither is it purely socialist, there's a 00:25:14.569 --> 00:25:18.549 lot of socialist policies here that work. And 00:25:18.549 --> 00:25:22.549 the degree of capitalism is still being exploited 00:25:22.549 --> 00:25:27.490 by, if you look at companies like Alibaba and 00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:31.259 so forth. But the system really Kind of works. 00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:34.900 I have no comment. If I could change one thing 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.839 about China, it would be censorship. Just give 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:42.480 me YouTube. Just give me uncensored internet. 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:49.539 Yeah, that'd be nice. And give me parties that 00:25:49.539 --> 00:25:53.619 allow large groups of people to gather for a 00:25:53.619 --> 00:25:56.480 specific purpose. That happens. Yeah. Unless 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.029 I just don't get out enough. Yeah, there aren't, 00:26:00.049 --> 00:26:03.509 but there are no like pride martyrs or days dedicated. 00:26:04.250 --> 00:26:08.549 Yeah, sure enough. Maybe someday, just in our 00:26:08.549 --> 00:26:11.930 time. Oh yeah. I'm going to say like you're muted, 00:26:12.109 --> 00:26:15.029 Luigi. So like I'm only hearing tidbits of your 00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:19.430 conversation through Ray's microphone. I will 00:26:19.430 --> 00:26:25.890 be mindful. Apologies. Here, I'll just keep it. 00:26:26.089 --> 00:26:31.440 It's on all the time. Okay. I'll ask for authority 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:40.539 property. I have a question. That's a really 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:42.839 interesting question because it's really difficult 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.460 for me to say because with the like rise, like 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:48.940 far right rhetoric that is coming out, what I 00:26:48.940 --> 00:26:51.420 mean by that is not like people being conservative. 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:54.460 I mean, the removal of certain groups, like minority 00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:56.799 groups and marginalized groups, human rights, 00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.440 in places I thought were completely safe from 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.039 that. It's a really difficult thing to think 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:06.119 about, but probably somewhere like Berlin or 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.960 somewhere in Sweden, something like that where 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:12.519 I know that my public services are going to be 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:14.380 good. And also I don't have to fear for my life 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:17.180 every time I go outside. But it's really difficult 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:19.599 to say because what I thought a few months ago 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.230 where I wanted to live is not where I think I 00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:31.390 want to live now. So when I was a child, it was 00:27:31.390 --> 00:27:33.789 America. Like America was like the place to be. 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:35.470 You know, like everybody, it was drilled into 00:27:35.470 --> 00:27:38.009 you as a child. You need to get a good education, 00:27:38.190 --> 00:27:40.150 get a job in America, if you're a South African, 00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:43.670 and then go over there. Then it was Canada for 00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:45.430 a bit, but kind of in all honesty, like both 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:47.190 of them are kind of falling apart, especially 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:49.970 America. And then, then it wasn't - What have 00:27:49.970 --> 00:27:53.019 you heard? Then it was to the European side, 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.980 but then the whole, all of the housing and economic 00:27:56.980 --> 00:27:58.940 issues that are coming up there. So probably 00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:00.779 somewhere that's really queer -friendly now, 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.279 like Berlin. It was always like, a few months 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.339 ago, it was like, what do you call those countries? 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:11.859 Nordic country that are up there. But yeah, currently 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:15.099 it's mainly Berlin. Okay, so Germany has the 00:28:15.099 --> 00:28:20.000 AFD. So, I mean, for me, the AFD is kind of scary. 00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:23.549 thing if you if you had to ask me right now as 00:28:23.549 --> 00:28:27.410 a transformer living in the world if i could 00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:30.849 move back anywhere and not have a concern for 00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:34.509 safety and where i felt kind of comfortable the 00:28:34.509 --> 00:28:37.509 biggest issue is money like i need to have an 00:28:37.509 --> 00:28:41.190 income that is going to sustain a certain level 00:28:41.190 --> 00:28:45.410 of comfort and the ability to maintain medical 00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:52.509 care um so If I could move somewhere, actually, 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:55.150 where I could be sure that I would have all of 00:28:55.150 --> 00:28:57.650 those things, it would be South Africa, because 00:28:57.650 --> 00:28:59.269 that's where I've been, where I've felt sent. 00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:02.750 And then the other places are Thailand and China. 00:29:03.289 --> 00:29:05.750 I don't have a context for the rest of the world, 00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:09.150 but I know that they're increasing narrative. 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:22.140 My question is what about South Africa? How do 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:25.180 you feel living there? Do you fear for your life? 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:31.579 For the because you are Transgender or do you 00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:35.000 fear for your life because it's a dangerous Less 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.000 so because of the meeting trans because we have 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.640 some of the most Not necessarily specifically 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.339 where I live, but South Africa has some really 00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:45.980 great queer spaces. It's more so just like when 00:29:45.980 --> 00:29:48.480 you start to fully pass and people view you as 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.720 a woman, now you become susceptible to the extremely 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.380 high femicide rates. And I don't know the level 00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:57.640 of censorship, but there are some really horrible 00:29:57.640 --> 00:29:59.579 things happening over here. Like about 11 women 00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:03.579 die a day due to femicide, like just because 00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:06.599 they're a woman. So like actually being trans 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:10.609 and passing. feels really, really dangerous given 00:30:10.609 --> 00:30:13.089 how women are treated in this country. I feel 00:30:13.089 --> 00:30:17.049 the same. I don't feel the same here. I feel 00:30:17.049 --> 00:30:19.210 like China is the safest country I've ever walked 00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:49.869 in. It's really interesting. I guess a really 00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:53.549 interesting thing I've come across recently is 00:30:53.549 --> 00:30:55.990 more so how I feel like, especially given the 00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:59.690 current rise in right -wing rhetoric, I feel 00:30:59.690 --> 00:31:02.750 like the people on the left should focus more 00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:06.069 on being united than necessarily being like, 00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:09.049 I am this person and I say this and this and 00:31:09.049 --> 00:31:12.650 this and this. We should just be united for everybody's 00:31:12.650 --> 00:31:17.049 human rights instead of being like, you are using 00:31:17.049 --> 00:31:19.650 this term incorrectly or you are doing this incorrectly. 00:31:19.930 --> 00:31:23.390 I feel like there's a larger threat that's coming 00:31:23.390 --> 00:31:27.849 to a lot of our rights that isn't really being 00:31:27.849 --> 00:31:29.710 talked about enough because I feel like the left 00:31:29.710 --> 00:31:32.410 is very fragmented, whereas the right is very 00:31:32.410 --> 00:31:34.869 united, if that makes sense. I hear what you're 00:31:34.869 --> 00:33:37.430 saying. And as long as... So they can maintain 00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:41.470 power. I think it's worse than that. Okay. I 00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:44.410 think it comes from your right. Trans people 00:33:44.410 --> 00:33:48.450 are constantly targeted and relentless in the 00:33:48.450 --> 00:33:51.890 media. Even to the point where if you look at 00:33:51.819 --> 00:33:55.660 How can I not remember? Rebecca Goode, who was 00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:59.740 shot and killed three, four days ago by an ICE 00:33:59.740 --> 00:34:03.960 agent. The next day, Jesse Wilson on Fox News 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:09.480 started off saying she was killed of, she had, 00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:13.380 she used pronouns in her bio. She was lesbian. 00:34:14.300 --> 00:34:16.880 She was married and had three kids. Yeah, to 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:20.059 a woman. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, but. The 00:34:20.059 --> 00:34:24.219 narrative, the news that you tend to watch, the 00:34:24.219 --> 00:34:29.239 reach is kind of partisan, neutral, to an extent, 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:35.360 but it's also poisoned by hiding the truth. Whereas 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:39.800 Fox News is just overtly hostile to the queer 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.880 community. And they have this benefit of a cult 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:47.860 following where they just... do and say what 00:34:47.860 --> 00:34:51.340 they want. And it's purely about the hate. It's 00:34:51.340 --> 00:34:54.960 not about, it's about hate and violence. Yeah. 00:34:55.219 --> 00:34:58.340 And what I think what Nora is saying is there 00:34:58.340 --> 00:35:07.039 is a problem on where a group of people, like 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.579 some lefties, they will obsess about doing things 00:35:12.579 --> 00:35:15.800 right. As opposed to taking, saying like, look, 00:35:15.900 --> 00:35:19.480 there's a, there's a minimum, there's a, there's 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.340 a bar that has been reached. And from now on, 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:26.079 we need to get shit down as opposed to focusing 00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:29.519 on having it the way that we need to have it. 00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:36.880 Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, you're right. Yes. So 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:38.940 then how do you get those people who, how do 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:41.599 you get those people to like recognize that? 00:35:42.630 --> 00:35:45.929 stopping in their own kind of like bubble of 00:35:45.929 --> 00:35:50.130 rage. Wait, are we talking left or right? Let's 00:35:50.130 --> 00:35:52.389 just say left for sake of art. Because some people 00:35:52.389 --> 00:35:55.550 really want to just, it's more of, it's like 00:35:55.550 --> 00:35:57.650 when a person drinks coffee in the morning, they 00:35:57.650 --> 00:36:00.289 get really excitable. They don't understand that 00:36:00.289 --> 00:36:02.329 it's the coffee making them really excitable. 00:36:02.449 --> 00:36:04.889 And it's kind of like, so that's how I liken 00:36:04.889 --> 00:36:07.429 it to those kinds of people who use that kind 00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:13.090 or who get really What's the word? Okay, I think 00:36:13.090 --> 00:36:16.010 you're really excited by getting to debate and 00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:17.829 talk about things But it's not really paying 00:36:17.829 --> 00:36:20.510 attention to the the real issues. Does that make 00:36:20.510 --> 00:36:25.150 sense? Mm -hmm. I think be honest Am I explaining 00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:28.150 myself clearly I think so you say I think so 00:36:28.150 --> 00:36:31.309 means no, you don't know what I'm saying. So 00:36:31.309 --> 00:36:35.849 Ruby your point was that yeah people now correct 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:38.750 me if I'm wrong people need to just Get over 00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:42.699 there hang ups and just, you know, stick to the 00:36:42.699 --> 00:36:44.860 real issues of like solving a problem, right? 00:36:45.019 --> 00:36:48.159 I'll give you an example. Okay. I want to clarify 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:50.139 this, but yeah, give me an example. On the way 00:36:50.139 --> 00:36:52.900 driving here today, I had, I was in a chapter. 00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.980 Okay. And I was talking to people and somebody 00:36:56.980 --> 00:37:03.500 mentioned that they were having a, they had a 00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:06.460 problem. Yeah. They'd been assaulted. Okay. Let 00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:08.380 me think about how I need to answer this. There 00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:11.840 were two people there. answering the questions 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:16.099 and prescribing how this person who was assaulted 00:37:16.099 --> 00:37:20.300 should feel over and over and over as opposed 00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:24.340 to just letting that person talk. And with that, 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:27.519 I think there's another problem where, let's 00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:33.239 say somebody misgenders me, right? I'm busy doing 00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:35.679 something and they misgender me and I go, you 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.400 misgender me. And they go, oh shoot, I'm sorry. 00:37:40.659 --> 00:37:43.780 I shouldn't have done that. I go, no, that's 00:37:43.780 --> 00:37:46.619 fine. Let's carry on. And then a minute later, 00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:49.900 they bring it up again, and then again, and then 00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:54.000 again, because they carry this guilt for whatever. 00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:56.920 As opposed to just moving on from this situation. 00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:01.820 What do you think, Norah? Yeah, I've also experienced 00:38:01.820 --> 00:38:04.480 that in a lot of queer spaces where people are 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.780 really, really worried and they constantly talk 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:09.199 about specific issues instead of moving on, I 00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:11.519 guess, in the way that you've described it. But 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.920 I don't know, for me personally, if somebody 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.940 misgenders me or somebody makes a mistake and 00:38:15.940 --> 00:38:18.780 you're like, hey, you did this, I didn't like 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:21.239 that, can we please not do that? And then they 00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:22.880 don't do it anymore. For me, it's more about 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.400 not the mistake itself, but the effort afterwards. 00:38:26.900 --> 00:38:29.590 Like, is this person... actually putting in the 00:38:29.590 --> 00:38:32.670 effort. And that way I wouldn't mind, but also 00:38:32.670 --> 00:38:36.409 constantly being forced to, I guess, not forced, 00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:39.190 but having this person's guilt projected onto 00:38:39.190 --> 00:38:41.269 yourself. It's a really difficult thing to deal 00:38:41.269 --> 00:38:45.050 with because now you're apologizing, like it 00:38:45.050 --> 00:38:46.889 feels like you're apologizing for making them 00:38:46.889 --> 00:38:49.170 feel guilty. If that makes sense, if they're 00:38:49.170 --> 00:38:51.610 like constantly projecting it onto you. Yeah. 00:38:52.170 --> 00:38:54.889 And then there's the problem of where some people 00:38:54.889 --> 00:39:01.480 might go and police. Like maybe, Luigi, you've 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:03.639 actually never done this, but let's say there's 00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:06.800 this situation where you accidentally misgendered. 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:12.699 I can't imagine someone else policing you. That 00:39:12.699 --> 00:39:17.539 would annoy you. Okay. I feel like we're diverging 00:39:17.539 --> 00:39:19.980 at the original point and now we're talking about 00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:25.360 something else. But yeah, it would annoy you. 00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:28.099 Yeah, there's a problem of policing. Okay, so 00:39:28.099 --> 00:39:32.420 then, are we saying the issue then is that, I 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:34.980 don't know anymore. We've gone off the rails. 00:39:35.500 --> 00:39:39.380 What's the original point that we're trying to 00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:43.360 make about the left? Too many different camps 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:48.539 on the left. Oh, so, okay, other people are policing 00:39:48.539 --> 00:39:52.480 others on the right. And they're doing that by 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:57.650 saying things or by policing their their language, 00:39:58.050 --> 00:40:00.610 their what? Their thoughts. Nitty is fractured 00:40:00.610 --> 00:40:03.469 because people are too focused on being perfectly 00:40:03.469 --> 00:40:06.690 unified. Is that it? Or are they too focused 00:40:06.690 --> 00:40:09.389 on being too PC? The way I look at it is, is 00:40:09.389 --> 00:40:12.010 that they're being too concerned too much with 00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:15.030 political correctness. And that, the issue with 00:40:15.030 --> 00:40:21.389 that is... It's the same cup. Stop! Stop! No! 00:40:21.929 --> 00:40:24.530 No! You're ruining my train of thought! The issue 00:40:24.530 --> 00:40:28.630 is... When you're trying to police others on 00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:32.389 how to be it's a distraction from Actually solving 00:40:32.389 --> 00:40:34.289 the problem. So if you're worried now, you're 00:40:34.289 --> 00:40:36.429 looking at me like that smile like oh, you're 00:40:36.429 --> 00:40:40.250 such an idiot I don't know. I don't know I was 00:40:40.250 --> 00:40:45.130 right all along All right PC bath Yeah, all that 00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:48.030 stuff. Wait, it's not important knowing which 00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:52.269 dantic intellectual jargon Isn't the issue and 00:40:52.269 --> 00:40:54.730 it's a distraction. But how do you convince people? 00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:59.500 How do you stop those people from seeing red? 00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:04.659 Let's say someone gets really mad that you called 00:41:04.659 --> 00:41:09.380 a toilet a john and that's offensive and it should 00:41:09.380 --> 00:41:12.099 be a water closet and they're so mad until you 00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:15.219 check yourself. How do you get them out of that 00:41:15.219 --> 00:41:17.820 frame of mind? Because my argument is that some 00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:21.059 people are disingenuous and they like that kind 00:41:21.059 --> 00:41:25.239 of state and it really gets them going. It's 00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:27.699 like a form of like mental masturbation and that's 00:41:27.699 --> 00:41:30.239 really what they're into. That's their king. 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:35.280 Not actually, you know, doing the work to solve 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:39.380 a real problem. Maybe they're afraid and they 00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:42.719 think deep down inside. That's like their way 00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:47.340 of distracting people from knowing their... I 00:41:47.340 --> 00:41:49.260 don't know. So many possibilities. Help me out 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:52.860 ladies. I think personally that the real only 00:41:52.860 --> 00:41:57.429 way to affect that in a meaningful way would 00:41:57.429 --> 00:42:00.610 be to have like a greater mind shift, like a 00:42:00.610 --> 00:42:04.110 frame shift of what it means to be a part of 00:42:04.110 --> 00:42:06.969 the left and what it means to fight for human 00:42:06.969 --> 00:42:09.690 rights and equality. It shouldn't be this like 00:42:09.690 --> 00:42:12.989 nitpicky thing of getting everything right, but 00:42:12.989 --> 00:42:16.289 making sure that, hey, everybody can live a normal 00:42:16.289 --> 00:42:20.090 lifestyle without the fear of death or persecution. 00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:23.860 I think that a mind shift is what's needed. and 00:42:23.860 --> 00:42:28.480 like the greater left community. And yeah, that's 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.719 what I would say. I think a level of respect 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:38.599 being afforded to different perspectives with 00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:43.320 the understanding that there is a line that cannot 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:48.380 be crossed, but also allowing interactions to 00:42:48.380 --> 00:42:53.369 happen between people without interfering. like 00:42:53.369 --> 00:42:56.510 with the trust that both of those people have 00:42:56.510 --> 00:42:59.510 the intelligence to do that. And this is really 00:42:59.510 --> 00:43:05.329 where the problem kind of manifests more than 00:43:05.329 --> 00:43:07.409 it should. I don't know the answer is what I'm 00:43:07.409 --> 00:43:10.510 trying to say. I know the answer based on my 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:14.630 opinion. They need to get over their silly PC 00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:16.250 -ness. I don't know how to change people. No, 00:43:16.269 --> 00:43:19.570 what I think is I think people can change. Okay. 00:43:19.659 --> 00:43:21.639 Nora, do you see a lot of this in university 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.280 now? Like, do you see these kinds of people who 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:27.179 are like PC police policing others saying you 00:43:27.179 --> 00:43:28.940 need to do this, but you can't say that. And 00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:32.320 it's really not about the real issues. I think 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.099 it's less so an issue specifically with the people 00:43:36.099 --> 00:43:38.940 I've met at university because of my country's 00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:40.960 backgrounds, of me and Ray's country's background 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.800 with all the like the racism and everything. 00:43:44.059 --> 00:43:47.659 People are still a lot more focused on actually 00:43:47.659 --> 00:43:51.510 just being together and being a mixed country, 00:43:51.530 --> 00:43:54.349 I guess, instead of a separated country. So there 00:43:54.349 --> 00:43:56.829 are some people, but it's a lot less common than 00:43:56.829 --> 00:43:59.409 what I would see from, let's say, on this court, 00:43:59.610 --> 00:44:01.789 my American friends. We're way more focused on 00:44:01.789 --> 00:44:04.630 just being a group of people together and being 00:44:04.630 --> 00:44:09.670 harmonious than necessarily the PC bits. But... 00:44:09.670 --> 00:44:13.269 Okay, go ahead, Remy. I want to say that a big 00:44:13.269 --> 00:44:18.119 part of the war on PC... can be attributed to 00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:23.679 American media manipulation because a lot of 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:28.179 the PC stuff stems from American news cycle. 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.460 I don't know. I'd have to do the research. I 00:44:33.460 --> 00:44:36.380 don't know. Obviously this is not a scientific 00:44:36.380 --> 00:44:42.880 opinion, but from what I see and feel anecdotally 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.050 is that The war on being politically correct 00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:54.829 is fueled by American rage mongers like Donald 00:44:54.829 --> 00:44:57.269 Trump, because nobody cares. I don't think Donald 00:44:57.269 --> 00:44:58.889 Trump's politically correct. I don't think he 00:44:58.889 --> 00:45:01.050 cares that he's politically correct. Yeah, he's 00:45:01.050 --> 00:45:06.309 a rage monger. That's my point. Okay. He uses 00:45:06.309 --> 00:45:13.480 an opinion that... has been scientifically settled. 00:45:13.619 --> 00:45:17.039 For example, the trans sports event, right? Trans 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.300 people have been playing sports in the Olympics 00:45:19.300 --> 00:45:23.579 for like 20, 30 years. Okay. Nobody's ever won 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.079 a medal, but somehow suddenly we're suddenly 00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:32.880 stealing all of the medals. Right. So that like 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:37.000 topic that feels different is just being used. 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.679 Whereas before nobody actually cared. You're 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:42.989 right. Yeah. Yes, I agree with the nobody actually 00:45:42.989 --> 00:45:45.989 cares, but it's it's oh, what's it called when 00:45:45.989 --> 00:45:50.690 we do that? I don't know it's the the Getting 00:45:50.690 --> 00:45:54.969 people to respond to their their feelings That 00:45:54.969 --> 00:45:57.889 really prevents the the problem from being solved 00:45:57.889 --> 00:46:01.349 that makes sense Talk amongst yourselves. Let 00:46:01.349 --> 00:46:03.110 me think about this. I know what I'm saying, 00:46:03.150 --> 00:46:05.409 but I don't know what I'm saying I'm gonna mute 00:46:05.409 --> 00:46:07.909 you for a while Nora. Tell me what you think 00:46:08.170 --> 00:46:11.250 A little tangent about the sports thing, I was 00:46:11.250 --> 00:46:15.010 on the fence about it in terms of the actual 00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:17.590 science. Because in certain sports, having a 00:46:17.590 --> 00:46:19.989 certain bone structure or bone density, whatever 00:46:19.989 --> 00:46:22.710 it may be, can technically give you an advantage. 00:46:23.210 --> 00:46:26.829 But then I started HRT. And the things I was 00:46:26.829 --> 00:46:30.150 able to do, they're not possible anymore. Picking 00:46:30.150 --> 00:46:33.110 up the water jug and putting it back on top of 00:46:33.110 --> 00:46:36.050 the water cooler, I went from a one -hand thing 00:46:36.050 --> 00:46:38.670 of just like... it's like 40 -ish pounds. Like, 00:46:38.750 --> 00:46:40.150 picking it up with one hand, lifting it over 00:46:40.150 --> 00:46:43.289 my hand, just putting it on to, okay, it's on 00:46:43.289 --> 00:46:46.110 my legs, it's on my chest, let's go up, and then 00:46:46.110 --> 00:46:48.750 we put it down. Because it's like, it's such 00:46:48.750 --> 00:46:50.909 a, like, after personally experiencing it, I 00:46:50.909 --> 00:46:54.230 really don't see how that would affect us. And 00:46:54.230 --> 00:46:57.050 also, aren't a lot of transfemes testosterone 00:46:57.050 --> 00:47:00.230 levels just lower than a lot of natural fems, 00:47:00.230 --> 00:47:01.730 especially if you're still on, like, a higher 00:47:01.730 --> 00:47:04.050 dose of Spiro? Like, the normal aren't just, 00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:07.239 like, 50 -ish? where most people are below that 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.639 like the 20s or the 30s. Yeah there's a few factors 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:14.900 here that you mentioned and you're right testosterone 00:47:14.900 --> 00:47:19.039 puberty results in a thicker butt structure and 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:23.239 testosterone supports muscle mass but once you 00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:27.219 switch over muscle mass ligament all soft tissues 00:47:27.219 --> 00:47:33.119 start changing over time and when you are when 00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:37.519 you have potentially this marginally thicker 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.340 bone structure because let's be honest it's not 00:47:40.340 --> 00:47:44.760 the difference between like titanium and aluminum 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:50.400 it is the difference between like kinds of hardwood 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:55.059 that you find in the wild different trees it's 00:47:55.059 --> 00:47:59.119 not it's not pine and oak it's more like oak 00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:02.679 and red wood, if there is a difference. I'm using 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:04.440 this analogy, I don't know anything about wood, 00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:09.679 but the bottom line is a thicker bone structure 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:12.940 with equal muscle mass, or even if some of the 00:48:12.940 --> 00:48:16.619 muscle mass is retained with exercise, so that 00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:19.400 makes it genetic, that can be a disadvantage. 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:24.159 Here I am now with maybe equal muscle mass, but 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:27.929 thicker bones. So on surfing sports, that's not 00:48:27.929 --> 00:48:29.809 going to be an advantage as all, for example, 00:48:30.070 --> 00:48:32.789 my muscles are working harder. And then from 00:48:32.789 --> 00:48:37.030 my own anecdotal experience, I used to be much 00:48:37.030 --> 00:48:41.070 stronger than I am now. I could easily deadlift 00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:44.429 a hundred and not easily. I could get up to 185 00:48:44.429 --> 00:48:47.690 kilograms. That is much more than most cis men. 00:48:48.590 --> 00:48:53.820 Um, my partner, who is a cis woman. can now lift 00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:59.519 more than me no matter how hard I try. I bench 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:04.559 50, she benches 75. That being said, she is a 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:09.239 personal trainer. However, as a person with a 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.059 personal trainer, as a life partner, I also train 00:49:13.059 --> 00:49:17.300 and I have a bench press in my house and I'm 00:49:17.300 --> 00:49:20.599 still not stronger. Like it's not an innate thing. 00:49:22.490 --> 00:49:26.769 So that was a long tangent there. A long aside. 00:49:27.250 --> 00:49:34.130 Can I talk now? Can you unmute me? Okay, so talk 00:49:34.130 --> 00:49:36.969 about your Trump point again. What did you say 00:49:36.969 --> 00:49:40.730 Trump does? Trump? Fear mongers. Okay, fear mongers. 00:49:41.489 --> 00:49:47.099 And why does he do that? to feel and unify people 00:49:47.099 --> 00:49:50.699 that are slightly out of touch with a certain 00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:56.920 topic. So he's cultivating, he's cult -avating. 00:49:57.659 --> 00:50:01.000 He's creating a cult. Yeah, I guess so. Well, 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:02.199 no, I know what you're saying. So the point I 00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:06.780 wanted to say was that he's using feelings. He 00:50:06.780 --> 00:51:39.960 wants to appeal to people's feelings. I have 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:43.159 an interesting tidbit about do your own research. 00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:56.480 I have some - Oh yeah? I'm sorry. No, an interesting 00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:58.940 tidbit, which I think kind of sort of relates 00:51:58.940 --> 00:52:00.840 to this, but where people are always like, no, 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:03.900 do your own research. I personally don't think 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:07.280 that people, the laymen, should be doing their 00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:10.519 own research. Like, as somebody who's actively 00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:14.159 in university and learning how to do research, 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.900 it's like you can look at research, but you're 00:52:16.900 --> 00:52:20.019 not technically researching. You're doing the 00:52:20.019 --> 00:52:21.699 first steps of researching. You're gathering 00:52:21.699 --> 00:52:24.340 the information. We spend years learning how 00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:27.119 to isolate our variables, how to manage your 00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.039 confounding variables, your nonsense variables, 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.239 how to set up an experiment and actually test 00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:35.170 something for what it is. So it's like... I don't 00:52:35.170 --> 00:52:36.989 know, it's more a semantic thing, I guess, of 00:52:36.989 --> 00:52:40.610 like, go look at research and then make an informed 00:52:40.610 --> 00:52:43.409 opinion about it. But by definition, like I wouldn't 00:52:43.409 --> 00:52:46.030 necessarily say anybody's like, like the layman 00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:48.329 isn't really doing their own research, if that 00:52:48.329 --> 00:52:49.989 makes sense. It's just like a little semantic 00:52:49.989 --> 00:53:48.059 tip about being in STEM. Yeah, true. I would 00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:50.639 argue that true objectivity is impossible for 00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:52.980 humans because we are subjective beings who view 00:53:52.980 --> 00:53:54.820 the world through our own biases and lenses. 00:53:55.420 --> 00:53:58.219 But that's why the scientific process is so great 00:53:58.219 --> 00:54:01.039 because it's repeatable. You know, it's multiple 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:03.179 different people can do the same experiment and 00:54:03.179 --> 00:54:05.000 you can still find the same. You don't have to 00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.880 be like a biologist or a physicist to do experiments 00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:10.000 like people in humanities, like psychology. They 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.599 also do really valid and good experiments. that 00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:15.880 are repeatable and testable. And that's kind 00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:19.559 of the way we subvert our biases and our own 00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:23.300 conclusions to be closer to the truth is by basically 00:54:23.300 --> 00:56:31.639 just doing a bunch of repetition. about this 00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:33.480 specific thing we were talking about. But just 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:36.780 like one last thing, because I'm in behavioral 00:56:36.780 --> 00:56:40.480 genetics, a lot of my modules and areas of studies 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.139 are also focused in the psychology field. So 00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:48.659 how we would do qualitative research in the psychology 00:56:48.659 --> 00:56:51.460 field would be, like you said, we just talk to 00:56:51.460 --> 00:56:54.940 people. Normally, the more people you get, and 00:56:54.940 --> 00:56:57.780 the more responses you get, the more validated 00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:02.760 your research is. by means of expanding your 00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:05.699 database and getting an average. But that's not 00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.519 really speaking to, cause I don't really think 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:10.699 objective morality or objective, like an objective 00:57:10.699 --> 00:57:13.860 way of learning exists. So when answering these 00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:16.179 types of questions, like I really don't feel 00:57:16.179 --> 00:57:18.840 like there is going to be a scientific way to 00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:21.079 answer these questions because they're subjective 00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:23.300 questions. Like this question changes from person 00:57:23.300 --> 00:57:28.059 to person. So it's... I agree in your sentiment 00:57:28.059 --> 00:57:31.219 in that it's really difficult for these types 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:34.940 of issues to objectively be able to convince 00:57:34.940 --> 00:57:39.619 somebody of a specific issue. Instead of like, 00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:41.880 you're forced to go for an emotional appeal. 01:03:55.610 --> 01:03:59.050 I was just doing the little thing, but no, I 01:03:59.050 --> 01:04:01.630 think for me, it's mainly that, especially with 01:04:01.630 --> 01:04:05.630 the older ones, the operative change in the narrative 01:04:05.630 --> 01:04:10.909 can only happen through a man. With Princess 01:04:10.909 --> 01:04:14.469 and the Frog, it's a bit different. Moana, it's 01:04:14.469 --> 01:04:16.650 a bit different. But like with especially the 01:04:16.650 --> 01:04:19.289 older ones, like Snow White, Cinderella, the 01:04:19.289 --> 01:04:21.110 operative change has to happen through a man. 01:04:21.570 --> 01:04:24.650 Like she isn't really, she's a hard worker, but 01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:38.159 It's happening through What I mean is from a 01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:41.440 narrative standpoint like she's lost on her own 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:44.440 or she's struggling on her own and instead of 01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:47.900 overcoming that personal tyranny that subverted 01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:51.360 by The Prince Charming coming in and swooping 01:04:51.360 --> 01:04:54.579 her and taking her away from her situation There's 01:04:54.579 --> 01:04:58.420 a lot less character growth and a lot less fighting, 01:04:58.420 --> 01:05:00.619 I guess, especially with the older ones than 01:05:00.619 --> 01:05:03.199 with the newer ones who have more of an actual 01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:06.260 negligible effect on the plot, like on the narrative 01:05:06.260 --> 01:05:09.280 of the story, if that makes sense, if I'm communicating 01:05:09.280 --> 01:08:53.100 properly. This is a really interesting topic 01:08:53.100 --> 01:08:55.560 like especially with I would say a character 01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:58.340 that I could point to that I'd be like that is 01:08:58.340 --> 01:09:02.439 a few a strong female lead that Still has a romantic 01:09:02.439 --> 01:09:04.960 interest and it's not defining her personality 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:08.220 But also is a strong warrior would be like Katara 01:09:08.220 --> 01:09:11.819 from Avatar the Last Airbender Like she's a strong 01:09:11.819 --> 01:09:14.779 independent woman that has operative on the narrative 01:09:14.779 --> 01:09:20.199 But she still has a love interest So I would 01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:23.739 like to see media moving more towards women as 01:09:23.739 --> 01:09:27.560 people and less women as like a damsel in distress 01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:31.260 or like basically character like, how do you 01:09:31.260 --> 01:09:35.000 say that in English? Like archetyping women in 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:38.520 a very, I need help kind of way. Instead of, 01:09:39.300 --> 01:09:42.180 I don't maybe know what I'm doing, but I have 01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:44.800 the capacity to learn and to grow, I guess is 01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:47.119 what I'm seeing with a lot of media and women. 01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:50.100 Yeah, it's good that. Recently, it's come up 01:09:50.100 --> 01:09:52.359 more, like we're getting more actual characters 01:09:52.359 --> 01:09:57.699 out of like females. Yeah, I love Katara. Katara, 01:09:57.880 --> 01:09:59.359 I think, is a really great example of a strong 01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:27.520 female main character. Oh, no, I think you're 01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:32.239 thinking about Cora. But yeah, Cora was, yeah. 01:10:39.539 --> 01:11:01.739 Ooh, why? Yeah, yeah, she she does mean and this 01:11:01.739 --> 01:11:03.699 is what's really cool about her. She's allowed 01:11:03.699 --> 01:11:07.560 to have a romantic relationship Without it defining 01:11:07.560 --> 01:11:11.100 character development or her I guess combat ability 01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:13.899 in air quotes Like she's a formidable fighter 01:11:13.899 --> 01:11:18.140 and a strong woman But still allowed to have 01:11:18.140 --> 01:12:26.840 caring side and a loving side with the blood 01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:31.539 specifically, like when she was forced to use 01:12:31.539 --> 01:12:34.680 it on the person that taught her that, to save 01:12:34.680 --> 01:12:37.619 Ang and something, like she was crying. She was 01:12:37.619 --> 01:12:40.420 disgusted. She never wanted to use that ever 01:12:40.420 --> 01:12:44.159 again because of just how like, like violating 01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:47.760 it is to the other person. So like she still 01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:52.039 has her values. in the sense of valuing autonomy 01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:55.039 and valuing other people. But in a certain situation, 01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:57.260 it's like when you're forced to defend yourself, 01:12:57.260 --> 01:12:59.380 I guess, like you can still value human life, 01:12:59.460 --> 01:14:11.439 but want to defend your own life, I guess. Yeah 01:14:11.439 --> 01:14:13.939 to talk about and like talk with especially if 01:14:13.939 --> 01:14:15.960 they're like pretty much similar to me because 01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:19.220 I have gotten these these remarks before about 01:14:19.220 --> 01:14:22.579 the way I speak The way I like to communicate 01:14:22.579 --> 01:14:24.520 my inner thoughts, so that would be really interesting 01:15:12.419 --> 01:15:16.539 I think Kaptara is a great, like the question 01:15:16.539 --> 01:15:20.079 would be, is Kaptara from Avatar the Last Airbender 01:15:20.079 --> 01:15:24.319 a well -written female character in this sense 01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:27.300 of communicating aspects of humanity while still 01:15:27.300 --> 01:16:11.149 having a strong feminine base? and unmute myself. 01:16:11.250 --> 01:16:15.949 And then I will run the closing. This has been 01:16:15.949 --> 01:16:19.170 Kaleidoscope. I am Ruby Ray. Today I was joined 01:16:19.170 --> 01:16:24.609 with Nora, a behavioral biologist from South 01:16:24.609 --> 01:16:28.109 Africa and my lovely co -host, Joiji. You can 01:16:28.109 --> 01:16:33.770 find Kaleidoscope on YouTube at Echo Embers or 01:16:33.770 --> 01:16:37.069 sorry, Echo Perspectives at Echo Perspectives. 01:16:37.270 --> 01:16:43.010 You can find more of me at ruby r -a -e -d on 01:16:43.010 --> 01:16:46.350 YouTube, my other personal channel. You can find 01:16:46.350 --> 01:16:50.829 both of those things on Instagram at fire from 01:16:50.829 --> 01:16:56.149 heat and on TikTok, heat from fire. If you don't 01:16:56.149 --> 01:17:00.909 know, that is a trans voice training phrase from 01:17:00.909 --> 01:17:06.470 a poem from a very famous transgender voice trainer 01:17:06.470 --> 01:17:11.220 who has unfortunately passed. That's dear. It's 01:17:11.220 --> 01:17:15.399 heat from fire, fire from heat. Thank you so 01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:17.779 much for watching. Please answer the question. 01:17:18.199 --> 01:17:23.300 What's her name? Katara. Is Katara a good female 01:17:23.300 --> 01:17:28.720 character while representing facets of humanity, 01:17:29.100 --> 01:17:32.100 having a love interest, while still maintaining 01:17:32.100 --> 01:17:35.699 feminine ideals? I'll clarify that in the question. 01:17:36.079 --> 01:17:40.050 Give us your answer. Yes or no? I love you. Do 01:17:40.050 --> 01:17:42.050 you guys want to say goodbye? Bye!