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Welcome to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray

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Liu and today I'm joined by Ken Wortley, former

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pastor and middle school coach and current resident

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in Brazil, which really intrigues me. Ken, welcome

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to Kaleidoscope. Thank you. Good morning. Good

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evening. Good afternoon. Whatever time's on your

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end. Great. Glad to be here. This is going to

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be fun for us. I believe so. We are also joined

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by my co -host, Luigi. Luigi, welcome. Thank

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you. Luigi here, former cart pusher. Reformed

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shopping cart pusher. Reformed shopping. Please

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elaborate on when you were pushing carts and

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why. When I was a teenager and I needed a job,

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I worked at a grocery store. I had to push carts.

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I'm bigger than this. I got dreams. Well, then,

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in that case, I am Ruby Ray Liu, former bookseller,

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because that was my first job. Still, better

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job. I would have killed to have that job as

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a teenager. Working in a bookstore? Wow. I think

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we've had this conversation informally, Ruby.

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And I was a conservative Baptist preacher in

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the United States. Hey -o! We're going to talk

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about that. That was your first job? That was,

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that was my career. I worked really hard to get

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a master's of divinity in Philadelphia and preached

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and was a very successful pastor. I did a lot

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of good messages. Most of them were anti -gay,

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anti -LGBT. So yeah. Wow. You've come a long

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way because this is an expressly LGBTQ podcast.

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Yeah, here I am. Here I am. Wow. Wow. I'm super,

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super interested in that. When we start Kaleidoscope,

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we always do kind of a quick fire round in the

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beginning. And my question then would be, what

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is the moment for you that changed and you went,

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hey, LGBTQ people should be welcomed into the

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church? I never got there in the church. In my

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career as a pastor, I never welcomed. LGBTQ people

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at all. First part of my life was really suppression

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of those kinds of thoughts. And I didn't entertain

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the idea that God could create gay people. And

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I knew that God had made a big mistake by creating

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me. So I saw myself as one who was against against

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God's will and God's way. When did I come out?

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I wish I had a dramatic story to tell the audience

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today. As my marriage began to crumble and began

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to really un on the ropes as you say, my wife

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and I lived in the same house with our two sons

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and we really didn't communicate at all for probably

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up to a year. lived in the same house, didn't

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communicate. All of our marriage of 20 -some

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years, we never brought up the issue of the subject

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of being gay. We knew that there was this elephant

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in our room in our marriage, but we never addressed

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it. We could smell it, we could touch it, we

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could feel it. but we never even addressed it,

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ever, ever, ever. And the pressure was added

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that the American society and culture began to

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change. An American president began to speak

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about gay issues and gay couples. Oprah Winfrey

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had a guy that was married to a straight woman.

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And all of that was pressure on me as I was an

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adult. My wife and I lived together, and yet

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we never talked about it. One day, out of the

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blue and I can't tell you why. She came down

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the stairs in where I was living in the lower

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portion of the house and she said, how long have

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you known you were gay? And that's my coming

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out story. I bumbled and fumbled and began to

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sweat because I didn't know what to say. I didn't

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want to sound stupid and I didn't want to sound

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like I was going to tell the truth. Because most

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of my life was a life of telling lies and hiding.

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And so the, the title of the book is the gospel

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of secrets. So all of my life was a secret. Yeah.

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As, as. Yeah, go ahead. That is, you say it's

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not a dramatic story for me. That is extremely

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dramatic and relatable actually. Well, because

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if I may. I think it's common. I think it's common.

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Let me tell you what I told her. I said, I'm

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not gay. And she looked at me and she went, you

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really do need some help. You really do need

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to face who you are as a person. She says, I'm

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known for a long time that you're homosexual.

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So I went, okay, so what do you want to do? And

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she says, I really want you to move out. I really

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want you to get. your life together, your act

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together. So it was her. It was her that actually

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shined the light on my personal life and my orientation.

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Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. If I may,

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like I will share my coming out story just briefly

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because I've spoken a lot about it on this podcast.

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I don't want to bore Luigi. But I was in severe

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denial as well and didn't know what to do was

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openly cross -dressing and embracing my femininity

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But because I'm in this conservative society

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China had no way of getting the medication that

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I needed Until one day I met a fellow trans girl

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from the UK and she gave me a contact for getting

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Non prescription estrogen. And when I held that

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box in my hand, it was a, like a lightning rod

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moment. And I came out to my partner, my wife,

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and we're still married and we're still happy.

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Um, I was outed to my parents by my sister who

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is lesbian. Uh, that's my story. My mom's birthday,

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I found her and she said, Hey, I read your letter.

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It's okay. It's not really okay. It hasn't been

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okay. Our relationship is severely damaged, but

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it is healing slowly. So I have hope. Wow. Amazing.

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I didn't know you had an internal struggle. I

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had it. Yeah. Yeah. Internal struggles put it

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mildly. there's a good chunk of people that really

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don't understand that dual life, that we have

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to live, that we live. I spoke to a gay friend

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here and he says, I don't understand what you're

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talking about telling the truth in lies. He says,

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the whole gay community lies. And I went, wow,

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okay, gee. He goes, we were born liars. And I

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went, I don't know. I don't know if that's true,

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but. Yeah, I was surprised by his response to

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my book, by saying, this call to tell the crew,

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he goes, every day we have to lie. And I went,

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okay, it was just different for me to hear, you

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know. It's an interesting take, every day we

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have to lie. Yeah. I can understand what that

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person's saying, without diverging too much,

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just real quick. Yeah. I guess like you can consider

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polite society Kind of, no, lie, lie -ish, if

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that's the word. We do lie in as much as we are

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being polite, I guess. You know, for example.

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Yeah. Yes, exactly. Hey, good morning. How are

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you? Oh, I'm good. Are you really good, though?

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I mean, I say it. Right. But I'm not going to

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tell them what I really think. Anyway, that's

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just diverging. Exactly. To protect yourself.

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No, I think you're onto something. I do think

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you're onto something because... If it is true

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that the LGBTQ population are born liars and

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have to lie every single day, then that is true

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for everyone. Everyone has to lie every single

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day to hide the truth of themselves. And we touched

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on it with another guest who said he has cis

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straight men coming into his hostel looking for

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hookups. That situation exists because they are

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lying to themselves because they have to lie.

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It's not because they're a gang. Yeah, it's interesting.

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There's a great book out called Why Do We Lie

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to Ourselves? I'm trying to get it from Amazon,

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but somebody told me that I should read that

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book because it's like, why do people lie to

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themselves? They need to protect themselves.

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It's a self -protection kind of a psychological

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move. I don't know, I was just taking back Ray

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and I didn't understand, I didn't respond to...

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this guy, as well as what you just stated. I

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wish, I wish I could have thought of an answer.

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I just didn't think about, I haven't thought

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about being born using a liar lying as, as a

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mechanism to continue our lives. Yeah, I wouldn't,

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I wouldn't blame you for not having a response

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immediately. I've spent a lot of time thinking

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about it because It still happens on a daily

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basis where somebody can ask me a question that

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blindsides me. Because suddenly I'm confronted

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with the reality of everything that I've done

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in my life to hide this struggle, not because

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I want to hide, not because I hate myself, but

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because I am trying to stay safe. When I was

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first... The first conversation I ever had with

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my therapist at the end, it was the onboarding

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to see if she wants to actually be my therapist.

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She asked, what would I say to the person that

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I am now if my personality were split into feminine

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and masculine? Because both of these things exist

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in everyone. What would the feminine say to the

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masculine? Right now, if I had a frank conversation

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and the response, even though I had never thought

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of it in my life was thank you for keeping me

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alive. Yeah. And that is why the deception, the,

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the, the hiding exists. Yeah. You know, I can

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go, um, going back to my story, not that I want

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to tell Michael's story as much, but you know,

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I really. I really developed a lifestyle of lying

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and some people learn to tell the truth. I learned

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to lie really well and I learned to cover it

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really well. Because theologically, theologically,

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I knew that that was really crucial. I was born

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and raised a Baptist and mom and dad expected

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me to be very religious and to be very spiritual.

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I was pushed or encouraged to become a good pastor,

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to find a wife, to find the first church and

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begin to preach God's word. All of that were

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layers and layers and layers and layers of years

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and days and minutes in which I really was never

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authentic with my wife. with my kids, with my

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job, with my church members, with my friends,

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with myself. It just was an impossible lifestyle

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that I was living. And it took its toll. It does

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take its toll on your health and your mind and

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your thinking. And you look for destructive ways

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to express your urges as a homosexual man. Ken,

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you were a pastor. and you stopped being a pastor,

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you wrote a book, the name of your book is, say

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it again, just real quick. The Gospel of Secrets

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in Memoir and Proof. So, you say you were pushed

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into being a pastor, essentially, or it was just

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like, your life, your family, all very strongly

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religious. Your parents, were they also in the

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church, like pastors, things like that? The church,

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Luigi, the church was an extension of our family.

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When the church was open. We were there. A great

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story is when I was a preteen, my grandparents

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and my aunts and uncles would set up chairs in

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the living room as they ironed and do housework.

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And I was in the front preaching with an open

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Bible. I was kind of moved into that way. I had

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an older brother. I had an older brother who

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was not so uh, religious. And so he smoked and

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he drank and he went with girls that do, you

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know, all that whole line. Me? No, no, no, no.

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I was a people. I was, I still am kind of a little

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people pleaser. I like to please people. Right.

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Okay. So can I ask, so now you're out, you know,

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openly gay, but, and you say, you know, one day

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your, your wife, you know, at a tipping point

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said, you know, you are gay. But, so you were,

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and correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, if you

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were denying it to yourself, did you ever, growing

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up, in your life, up until that point, know you

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were gay or had, you know, personal kinds of,

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I don't know, thoughts or desires and you just

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thought, you know, these are just thoughts, ignore

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them? And I ask this now because I think I have

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something we can discuss. later on. That's a

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really interesting kind of dynamic to your story.

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And I think it will answer a lot of questions

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about religion and homosexuality and how they

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kind of antagonize each other. You know, theologically,

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I'd like to go back to seminary to see where

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they are now. Theology and the church was pretty

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divided over the issue. So, of course, I was

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on one side of the issue and preached against

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it. Very few churches and very few theologians

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were all saying, yeah, we need to redefine some

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of these scriptures. We need to relook at some

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of the scriptures. For me, that wasn't a possibility.

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Was there a time, and this is the question I

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hear a lot from my podcast, people that ask me

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questions. When was the time you really knew

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you were gay? Yeah. And you know what? I don't

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like that question. Okay. Because it probably

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shouldn't be answered by anyone really. When

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did you know you were gay? When did you really

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come to terms with who you are as a person? Right,

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yeah. When did I know I was gay? I began the

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journey when she voiced the word, how long have

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you known you were gay? I have never even used

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that. I went to school a couple days later and

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I was telling my school teacher friend, and I

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told her, I says, you know, I said, I think we're

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getting a divorce. And she says, oh no, no, you

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can't get a divorce. She says, you probably need

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to do some counseling. I know this great person

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that could do marriage counseling. And I says,

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yeah, but Marcy, I think I'm gay. It was the

00:16:44.309 --> 00:16:49.740
first time I spit those words out. I kind of

00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:53.620
held back a little bit thinking, wow, you just

00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:59.059
said it. That was amazing for me to say out loud.

00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.299
And she looked at me like, what? You're gay?

00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:04.559
How did you know you were gay? And all that kind

00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.500
of thing. So that was a whole nother discussion.

00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:14.940
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, go ahead, Brad. I want

00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:16.920
to say, I like to tell stories. The whole book

00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:20.829
is about stories. By all means, yeah. My mother

00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:24.670
was in her 90s and very proud of her son and

00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:29.150
pastor and school teacher. And very proud that

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:34.190
I was married and had two kids and she was delighted

00:17:34.190 --> 00:17:38.269
about the marriage and the family. I just, I

00:17:38.269 --> 00:17:40.990
thought I'm never going to tell my mom, no matter

00:17:40.990 --> 00:17:43.890
what, I'm never going to tell my mom that I'm

00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:46.089
gay. I'm never, she's never going to read it.

00:17:46.089 --> 00:17:48.259
She's never going to find out. I'm never gonna

00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:52.019
do this. But every single day she would say,

00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:54.960
okay, I found this pastor friend of mine who

00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:58.059
does marriage counseling and he's gonna help

00:17:58.059 --> 00:17:59.799
you get your marriage back together. I said,

00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:03.660
mom, we gotta stop this. So every day I'd pick

00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:08.039
her up and she would start in with that endless

00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.380
litany of. You know, when are you going to, when

00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:13.240
are you going to go back to your wife? When are

00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:15.440
you going to, I said, mom, we were just living

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.559
together in, I was in the basement. She goes,

00:18:19.619 --> 00:18:23.640
so finally, um, I told her, I said, you know,

00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:31.539
the problem is with me. I'm homosexual. And when

00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:35.140
I said that, I kind of regretted it because she

00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:39.099
just wept. She wept for, for days, for weeks.

00:18:39.259 --> 00:18:42.079
A couple of months later, she fell out of bed

00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:47.700
and broke her hip and had surgery and came back

00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:50.720
in the room after she was recovering. And I said,

00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:53.700
how are you doing? She said, well, I can't handle

00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:57.299
living in the same city as you. So I'm going

00:18:57.299 --> 00:18:59.740
to move back to Michigan to be with your brother.

00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.299
I can't help you. I don't know when this started.

00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:06.539
When do you think this started, this gay thing?

00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.990
And I said, it probably started, I don't know,

00:19:11.230 --> 00:19:17.690
in your womb? Yeah, yeah. Before I was born and

00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:21.670
that wasn't good news for her to hear. Anyways,

00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:26.970
yeah. I struggle with this kind of viewpoint

00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:30.529
from the church and from religious people. It's

00:19:30.529 --> 00:19:35.660
one that my brother also Used he said he he framed

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:38.960
it perfectly actually even from a from a point

00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.039
of ignorance. He said It's like you're saying

00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:45.500
God made a mistake and God doesn't make mistakes

00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:50.700
Yeah, well, that's the point. It's not a mistake

00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:55.859
It's just who I am. It's just what I am. It does

00:19:55.859 --> 00:20:00.680
not come from anywhere if I'm not a religious

00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.519
person myself, but If God made me this way, it

00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.720
was with intent. And that is the only thing that

00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.099
needs to be known. It doesn't need to be understood.

00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:14.839
I don't understand straight people. I've tried.

00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:21.940
I tried so hard. What? You never told me. You're

00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:25.799
funny. That's cool. Yes. You know, it's not a

00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.980
choice getting, getting that to live with that

00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:33.470
point of view. that it's not a choice, not any

00:20:33.470 --> 00:20:36.490
more than me choosing I have blue eyes, you know?

00:20:37.609 --> 00:20:42.750
It's human choice. And to let that sink in to

00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:46.130
our soul is really, really important. It's a

00:20:46.130 --> 00:20:50.390
crucial step, because if we see it as a choice,

00:20:51.630 --> 00:20:56.529
then it's different. Yeah, and I think... To

00:20:56.529 --> 00:20:58.769
add to that, I think this is the problem with

00:20:58.769 --> 00:21:01.869
sexuality is that people see it as a dichotomy.

00:21:02.109 --> 00:21:05.250
You're either or. And so that's why people probably

00:21:05.250 --> 00:21:07.910
ask you the question, which now that you say

00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:10.009
it to me this way, I'll think about how I ask

00:21:10.009 --> 00:21:13.109
it in the future. When did you know? Or when

00:21:13.109 --> 00:21:15.289
did you become? But they treat it like a dichotomy,

00:21:16.190 --> 00:21:23.130
but really, you know, thought has been from scholars

00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:25.430
in the last, I don't know. a couple decades maybe,

00:21:25.930 --> 00:21:28.150
that, you know, sexuality, gender, whatever,

00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:31.150
it's fluid. And if we recognize it as fluid,

00:21:31.269 --> 00:21:35.009
you're right. There cannot be a point when you

00:21:35.009 --> 00:21:40.930
decide to be something that is authentic, which

00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:43.769
I hate to use the word, but authentic in as much

00:21:43.769 --> 00:21:48.970
as that's the starting point. It was just denying

00:21:48.970 --> 00:21:54.759
it or, you know. Yeah. Hiding it because for

00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:56.400
whatever reason, for whatever reason we have

00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:00.359
to do it. And I mean, we know why people don't

00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.240
come out and hide their sexuality, obviously.

00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:10.420
I have a question. Okay, go ahead. Two questions.

00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.900
How did you reconcile this? And the second question,

00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:17.039
or how did you reconcile the unthought that you

00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.680
were a mistake in God's eyes into a you aren't?

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:23.920
And the other question is right now there is

00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.900
a movement of queer people called lgb without

00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:30.980
the t because they are trying to it's kind of

00:22:30.980 --> 00:22:34.400
like a pick me situation where we're better than

00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.140
trans people because we're not so uh quote unquote

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:40.980
extreme what would you say to them you know let

00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:48.099
me think about that one it's it's hard thinking

00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:56.059
about theology and how to reconcile myself. I

00:22:56.059 --> 00:23:00.119
need to be honest and say that was a long struggle,

00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:06.900
a long process of therapy. I went to four or

00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:10.119
five different therapists who just prescribed

00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:16.539
drugs for me to continue to live and a sleeping

00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:20.410
pill. pill to wake up with, a pill to be depressed.

00:23:20.509 --> 00:23:23.309
And so I had like five different pills that I

00:23:23.309 --> 00:23:27.329
was taking. I finally came to a therapist who

00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:31.430
had no prescription pad, but just wanted to listen

00:23:31.430 --> 00:23:35.250
and to unlearn. I like that word, unlearn, some

00:23:35.250 --> 00:23:41.630
thinking that I had bought into the basis of

00:23:41.630 --> 00:23:45.710
my life, breaking apart the foundations that

00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:49.400
I had built. my lies and my life. She helped

00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:53.339
me. She asked me if I had ever journaled and

00:23:53.339 --> 00:23:55.759
I'm just like, I don't journal. I'll write things

00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:57.980
down. And she said, I really would like you to

00:23:57.980 --> 00:24:01.099
start journaling, start writing things down about

00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:05.440
everything from your food to your drink, to your

00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:09.200
thinking, to your behavior. And so that's how

00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.859
I began to think about my life and began to write.

00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:16.480
And so it became kind of an addiction for me

00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:21.599
to write and began to write titles of books or

00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.160
what people had said or to write what a young

00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.140
man would say to me about, well, we're all lying.

00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:32.539
So writing down life and then going back and

00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:34.940
looking to build this powerful, really powerful.

00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:39.019
I think about my friend Ray Bolts, who's a Christian

00:24:39.019 --> 00:24:42.420
singer. And I wouldn't expect you guys maybe

00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:46.279
from not the area of the United States to remember

00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:50.079
him or know him. It kind of made his own story

00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:55.380
about coming out. But he wrote us this great

00:24:55.380 --> 00:25:01.740
song called, God Knows I Tried. And he writes,

00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:06.359
when they said I was a sinner, I was struggling

00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:11.279
with my youth and with the hope that God could

00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.289
change me. I believed that it was the truth.

00:25:14.450 --> 00:25:18.109
So I spent my whole life trying to be what they

00:25:18.109 --> 00:25:22.490
said I should. And on the inside, I was dying

00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:28.650
because I never really could. I was so good at

00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:32.210
pretending like an actor on a stage. In the end,

00:25:32.509 --> 00:25:36.809
nobody knew me. Only the roles that I portrayed,

00:25:37.089 --> 00:25:41.230
I loved that. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking

00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:45.599
about. Yeah. I don't know about your second question,

00:25:45.980 --> 00:25:49.619
Ray. I'm still kind of struggling with that.

00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.700
And I live in a culture of Brazil. Brazil is

00:25:53.700 --> 00:26:00.559
so, it's such a different kind of a culture here

00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:08.359
with the LGBT group. You can have a trans daughter

00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:14.119
or son. But you can't talk about it. You can't

00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:17.559
bring it up. You can't address it. It's kind

00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.019
of similar to my situation. You can have a gay

00:26:21.019 --> 00:26:25.059
son or a lesbian daughter, and everybody knows

00:26:25.059 --> 00:26:28.319
that nobody's talking about it. Nobody's affirming

00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.359
it. Yeah, Ruby and I are familiar with this,

00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.680
actually, because we know someone from Brazil

00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:35.839
who is queer. Yeah. Ruby, what do you think?

00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:43.079
He loves listening to podcasts. Yeah, wow. I'm

00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:47.220
struggling to figure out ways to articulate as

00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:53.440
well, because there's this torrent of anti -queer

00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:58.880
media and rhetoric from multiple, it seems like

00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.119
many sources, but really it's coming from one

00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.579
or two controlling points. And those are predominantly

00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.380
staged in the US, unfortunately, which is ironic

00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:12.900
because that used to be. Yeah. And it's all power

00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:16.119
plays. For example, the anti -LGBTQ movement

00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.579
in South Africa comes from a place I like to

00:27:18.579 --> 00:27:21.019
refer to as the Cape Town mafia. It's a rich

00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:25.000
conservative think tank in Cape Town, which is

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.720
linked into politics. And they drive that. That's

00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.529
what they do because they have money. Right.

00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:37.670
And it's probably, I'm guessing, Thai theological

00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:42.509
church people. People that I don't believe that

00:27:42.509 --> 00:27:45.690
the church is exclusive by nature. So people

00:27:45.690 --> 00:27:48.390
that believe they are theological, but I don't

00:27:48.390 --> 00:27:52.430
think that they are actually. Personal thought.

00:27:52.789 --> 00:27:55.990
I don't think that theology is exclusive in any

00:27:55.990 --> 00:28:00.329
way. No, obviously it's not, but. I made a statement

00:28:00.329 --> 00:28:03.650
at a cocktail party a couple of weeks ago that

00:28:03.650 --> 00:28:07.730
I said that the church is really a scam. And

00:28:07.730 --> 00:28:12.589
I don't have a filter too well. Neither do we,

00:28:12.589 --> 00:28:16.930
don't worry. The people that were there didn't

00:28:16.930 --> 00:28:19.450
take it well. And I said, you know, I looked

00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:22.390
back at the church and I really realized that

00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:26.740
it's a controlling group, organization. it's

00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:29.960
a controlling group of people. And the more that

00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.740
they can control and the more that they can have

00:28:32.740 --> 00:28:36.859
their fingers in controlling, the better. So

00:28:36.859 --> 00:28:40.900
when they put up media, things like that in the

00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:43.980
United States and Africa or wherever in the world,

00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:50.480
the issue is control. I don't know how to control

00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.779
a trans population. I don't know how to control

00:28:54.779 --> 00:28:58.130
a homosexual son. I think you really touched

00:28:58.130 --> 00:29:02.269
that. I think you're right. You're right. Thanks.

00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:06.250
You're right to a degree. I would agree in that

00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:08.230
the people who are saying I don't know how to

00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:12.190
control are, you know, not the people, not this

00:29:12.190 --> 00:29:14.609
secret cabal of people at the top, but just regular

00:29:14.609 --> 00:29:18.759
everyday people. For me, I always bring this

00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.799
down to my own conspiracy that the reason there's

00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.859
so much focus on, let's say, for example, trans

00:29:24.859 --> 00:29:29.059
people being an issue in society is it is a distraction

00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:34.599
from the greater issues of government and a small

00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:39.180
selection of people, a small group, who is attempting

00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:42.819
to maintain power and distract people from real

00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:46.769
issues. Like job security, like a failing economy,

00:29:46.809 --> 00:29:50.970
things like that. It's really a veiled class

00:29:50.970 --> 00:29:55.750
issue and it's just distraction. Just trying

00:29:55.750 --> 00:30:01.269
to get people emotional in order to avoid the

00:30:01.269 --> 00:30:03.809
real issue at hand. Sorry if I sound redundant,

00:30:04.210 --> 00:30:07.069
but so when, you know, that stuff, I have no

00:30:07.069 --> 00:30:08.289
truck with that kind of stuff because I just

00:30:08.289 --> 00:30:10.750
think it's nonsense. And for the people who are,

00:30:10.750 --> 00:30:14.200
you know, staunchly you know, fighting to, you

00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:16.539
know, maintain this kind of heteronormativity.

00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:21.160
I just think, like, how are you so happy? Like,

00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:23.619
do you not see the misery of your life when you

00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:26.920
have to, I don't know, pay a mortgage, make money,

00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:29.059
make sure you have job security, worry about

00:30:29.059 --> 00:30:31.339
health care, but no, instead it's, I don't want

00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:34.559
my kids to be turned into gay people or trans

00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.819
people at school by teachers. For whatever reason,

00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:43.109
it's just so absurd, so wrong -headed. tonight,

00:30:43.289 --> 00:30:48.309
today, that are gay and are religious, they'll

00:30:48.309 --> 00:30:51.789
have the need to be involved in church, in church

00:30:51.789 --> 00:30:56.450
work, in theology. So there's that need still.

00:30:57.490 --> 00:30:59.269
And so somebody would say, well, what do you

00:30:59.269 --> 00:31:02.710
want me to do? Just like, leave the church like

00:31:02.710 --> 00:31:06.130
you did? And I went, well, yeah, but that's not

00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:10.470
so easy. You do have to do some theological work.

00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:15.650
You do have to think and reason and be able to

00:31:15.650 --> 00:31:18.730
come up with a, if it's scripture, you have to

00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:21.910
come up with some scripture that you can live

00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:28.369
with and center on thinking about God as this

00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:33.529
mighty, powerful force in your life. And think

00:31:33.529 --> 00:31:36.940
about spirituality. Think about some aspects

00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:40.359
of life that isn't so restrictive. I mean, how

00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.079
hard would it be to reinterpret, you know, the

00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.220
Bible from a queer perspective? I mean, God put

00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.980
down... What? Oh, come on. Didn't God put down

00:31:50.980 --> 00:31:52.880
after the flood, after Noah's flood, didn't he

00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.099
put down, like, a rainbow? And then didn't that

00:31:55.099 --> 00:31:58.559
represent his, like... Luigi. Okay, correct me

00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.279
if I'm wrong. How hard can it be? It's hard.

00:32:01.339 --> 00:32:06.119
It's really hard. Okay. It's hard in as much

00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:11.119
as, go ahead. There is a host of scriptures that

00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:17.000
need to be re -done, re -thought, re -gone over,

00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:22.200
in your mind, in your mind. Right. I'll bring

00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.640
this up because it was so hard for me. I took

00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:29.829
my two sons out for lunch. about a couple of

00:32:29.829 --> 00:32:32.650
months later, and I said, okay, guys, I need

00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:34.710
to let you know that your mom and I are getting

00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:40.750
a divorce, and I need to let you know that your

00:32:40.750 --> 00:32:46.210
dad is gay, un -gay. And my one son said, I said,

00:32:46.269 --> 00:32:49.890
well, does anybody have any questions? And my

00:32:49.890 --> 00:32:53.369
son said, yeah, let me get this straight. Trading,

00:32:53.509 --> 00:32:57.819
having sex with guys. You're treating the family

00:32:57.819 --> 00:33:01.799
for having sex with guys and it was it was like

00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.000
and I I went all pretty yeah Well, that was hard.

00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.519
That was hard for him. You see what you want

00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.920
to see you hear what you want to hear. Yeah,

00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:18.160
yeah, right I do think So yes from a from one

00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.359
perspective you could say that we need to personally

00:33:22.589 --> 00:33:25.329
people who have been brought up within a specific

00:33:25.329 --> 00:33:29.009
church, for example, need to rethink about certain

00:33:29.009 --> 00:33:32.069
scriptures. But we need to remember that, as

00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:38.009
you said before, the church did not want to be

00:33:38.009 --> 00:33:41.410
this, but over time it has become an instrument

00:33:41.410 --> 00:33:46.589
of control. And that fact alone means that scripture

00:33:46.589 --> 00:33:51.390
has been interpreted in order to control and

00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:56.029
exclude. So the baseline of that scripture does

00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:58.549
not need to be reinterpreted at all. If you run

00:33:58.549 --> 00:34:02.250
it back all the way before any, any translations

00:34:02.250 --> 00:34:06.210
or anything, it's just inclusive and it protects

00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:10.710
women. It protects children. Does not police

00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:17.829
identity and sexuality. Yes. Yes. I had forgot

00:34:17.829 --> 00:34:22.150
the fact that my brand of Baptists in the United

00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:26.769
States split over the Southern Baptists over

00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:30.989
the slavery issue. They looked at scripture and

00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:35.730
said slavery is wrong. So it's kind of that simple.

00:34:35.849 --> 00:34:38.170
Thank you, Ray. It is that simple. You know,

00:34:38.170 --> 00:34:41.369
when you think about control or uncontrol, yeah.

00:34:41.550 --> 00:34:44.670
Now, are there, okay. So people said some people

00:34:44.670 --> 00:34:46.909
had trouble leaving the church, but is there

00:34:46.909 --> 00:34:50.269
must be queer churches out there in the world.

00:34:50.570 --> 00:34:53.309
You know, welcoming for queer people. Presently.

00:34:53.449 --> 00:34:55.889
Yes, I think there is. I believe I haven't been

00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:58.369
back to the United States in a while, but I think

00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:01.489
the United States has a proliferation of that.

00:35:01.849 --> 00:35:07.309
At least inclusive churches. Inclusive. I continue

00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:11.570
to go to church after I was divorced and I like

00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:14.889
the music. I like the camaraderie, I like being

00:35:14.889 --> 00:35:18.789
in God's presence, but I didn't like the message

00:35:18.789 --> 00:35:21.010
up there. The guy would get up and speak and

00:35:21.010 --> 00:35:24.289
I went, oh crap, I can't live in this church.

00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:27.050
I can't be a member of this church. This isn't

00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:29.789
gonna work for me. And I did that over and over,

00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:32.309
every Sunday, every Sunday, every Sunday. And

00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:34.809
I went to one church and I told him that I'm

00:35:34.809 --> 00:35:37.829
getting a divorce and I told him that I was kinda

00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:41.429
gay and he goes, well you're welcome. To be in

00:35:41.429 --> 00:35:43.869
this church, but we don't want you to be a teacher

00:35:43.869 --> 00:35:47.949
We don't want you to be Involved in our church,

00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:53.730
you know I hope that the end of that kind of

00:35:53.730 --> 00:35:58.070
thinking yeah, I would I would agree I I had

00:35:58.070 --> 00:36:02.949
my own like slow very slow falling out on the

00:36:02.949 --> 00:36:07.610
church when I realized that a lot of the like

00:36:07.610 --> 00:36:12.420
first of all that the idea that And I think this

00:36:12.420 --> 00:36:15.820
is my own connection to my own identity and my

00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:18.340
early struggles with it, even though I was unaware

00:36:18.340 --> 00:36:23.260
of the fact. I would read other religious texts

00:36:23.260 --> 00:36:26.300
or other religious doctrines from all around

00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:31.900
the world. And the core, the core message was

00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:34.280
always the same. And then there was this big

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:39.119
problem that I faced with either you are Christian,

00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:42.590
or you will burn in hell because the only way

00:36:42.590 --> 00:36:46.230
to heaven is through Jesus Christ. I just had

00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:49.590
a problem with that because that just fundamentally

00:36:49.590 --> 00:36:51.949
means that everybody else is wrong and not everybody

00:36:51.949 --> 00:36:55.909
has heard and it puts this like mandate of control

00:36:55.909 --> 00:36:59.690
and spreading this word on a group of people.

00:37:00.230 --> 00:37:03.469
When other groups are perfectly happy, perfectly

00:37:03.469 --> 00:37:09.329
moral, perfectly capable of being amazing societies.

00:37:09.489 --> 00:37:12.349
So that like message of inclusion, exclusion.

00:37:12.650 --> 00:37:15.489
It's not inclusion, it's exclusion. You are the

00:37:15.489 --> 00:37:18.809
other, you are not good unless you are this problem.

00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:22.530
And that's why I drifted away from religion.

00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:24.210
I would say it's more or less the same for me.

00:37:24.389 --> 00:37:25.750
Obviously it happened when I was very young,

00:37:25.809 --> 00:37:28.070
like in my teens. But yeah, essentially the same

00:37:28.070 --> 00:37:30.389
dynamic. It's this kind of, you know, ours is

00:37:30.389 --> 00:37:33.610
right, everyone else's is wrong. I have massive

00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:37.480
respect for people like you, Ken, who are able

00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.840
to, especially from a point of maturity, step

00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:47.539
back and go, hey, even though there's this massive

00:37:47.539 --> 00:37:50.539
sunk, I presume, I might be wrong, this massive

00:37:50.539 --> 00:37:56.019
sunk cost of like, if I step away, there is a

00:37:56.019 --> 00:37:58.860
risk of me giving up all of this, even though

00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:01.099
that's not the intention, right? The intention

00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:04.099
is just to be myself, but then to be able to

00:38:04.099 --> 00:38:06.949
say, you know what? Being myself is more worth

00:38:06.949 --> 00:38:10.789
than continue this pretense. I think that is

00:38:10.789 --> 00:38:16.929
such a like insanely powerful thing to do. It's

00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:20.409
fundamentally human and it's beautiful. Thank

00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:33.309
you. Thank you. Yeah. I was shopping one day.

00:38:33.630 --> 00:38:37.690
And this was maybe a year into this, and I was

00:38:37.690 --> 00:38:40.289
living by myself. A church woman came up to me,

00:38:40.289 --> 00:38:43.289
a good friend, and she says, she says, pastor.

00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:45.510
And I knew I was in trouble when she called me

00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:48.469
pastor. She didn't call me by my name. And she

00:38:48.469 --> 00:38:52.250
says, we've heard that you're getting a divorce.

00:38:52.289 --> 00:38:55.829
And I said, yeah. And she says, and you've entered

00:38:55.829 --> 00:38:58.889
into that lifestyle. And I went, you mean the

00:38:58.889 --> 00:39:02.090
lifestyle where I cry myself to sleep at night

00:39:02.090 --> 00:39:05.739
or? the lifestyle that I take, sleeping pills

00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:09.239
sometime to get to sleep, or the lifestyle that

00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:13.139
I be a judge by church people. And so I listed

00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:16.619
her all of the lifestyles that I was living through,

00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:20.599
you know. She had a different lifestyle. I mean,

00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.000
she thought I was hitting all the gay bars every

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.239
Friday night. And yeah, yeah. By the way - More

00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:33.750
power to you. Yeah, Baptist. going to a gay bar

00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:36.829
was really hard. I don't know. Yeah, I can imagine.

00:39:37.269 --> 00:39:39.710
I didn't know what kind of drink to order. I

00:39:39.710 --> 00:39:43.449
mean, this couple came up and they had this like

00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:46.329
pink drink with little umbrellas in it. I'll

00:39:46.329 --> 00:39:48.210
have what they're having, and the guy goes, that's

00:39:48.210 --> 00:39:49.730
a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh,

00:39:49.730 --> 00:39:52.570
okay. You know, I didn't know what to review.

00:39:53.449 --> 00:39:56.590
I didn't like beer. I didn't like the taste of

00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:58.869
beer. I said, I like something sweet. That looks

00:39:58.869 --> 00:40:01.329
like it's pretty sweet. And they said, we are

00:40:01.329 --> 00:40:02.989
sweet. I said, no, I'm not talking about you

00:40:02.989 --> 00:40:07.510
two. I'm talking about the drink. Yeah. It was

00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:13.730
funny. What's the best part about your life now?

00:40:13.929 --> 00:40:17.369
Living in Brazil, remarried, authentically yourself.

00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:19.889
What's the thing that you embrace most every

00:40:19.889 --> 00:40:22.570
day? That's a great question. Wow, that's a great

00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:28.769
question. Well, I'm a fulfilled adult, I think.

00:40:28.989 --> 00:40:35.190
At the end of my book, I write 10 things or 10

00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:39.630
final thoughts that directs my life every day.

00:40:39.889 --> 00:40:43.309
Let me just go with them. Finding peace in something

00:40:43.309 --> 00:40:47.389
bigger than me. I can walk to the beach and put

00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:51.090
my feet in the sand and view an ocean that's

00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:53.369
mightier than me. I don't know if that's a word,

00:40:53.369 --> 00:40:56.250
mightier. It's bigger than me, mightier than

00:40:56.250 --> 00:41:01.849
me. I can go in the ocean and feel its force.

00:41:02.570 --> 00:41:06.730
The waves push me around. I can taste the ocean.

00:41:06.889 --> 00:41:11.190
They say as I look out that direction, we could

00:41:11.190 --> 00:41:15.539
touch the continent of Africa. I can't see Africa,

00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:17.960
but I just have to think about it and believe

00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:20.920
that that's true. If I got in a boat or a ship,

00:41:21.019 --> 00:41:24.619
we would hit the continent of Africa. For me,

00:41:24.820 --> 00:41:29.099
again, to live generously. I'm a rich guy in

00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:34.179
Brazil. Not necessarily money, but I like to

00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:38.340
give to people. And so it's a developing country.

00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:42.699
So when I go out to eat and I have a little pizza

00:41:42.699 --> 00:41:46.460
left, I could take it outdoors and give it to

00:41:46.460 --> 00:41:51.179
somebody to eat and live generously and to use

00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:53.960
some of my resources financially. Next thing,

00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:58.039
I like to nourish my temple. That's a scriptural

00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:02.960
word. My body honor my physical temple. This

00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:05.420
is the only thing I have. A year ago, I had an

00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:09.039
open heart surgery here in Brazil. And it helped

00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.989
me realize that, yeah, I... I have made some

00:42:12.989 --> 00:42:17.269
serious mistakes about treating my body as this

00:42:17.269 --> 00:42:22.230
temple that can abuse. I can't smoke it. I can't

00:42:22.230 --> 00:42:26.670
drink it. I can't become an obese human being.

00:42:27.010 --> 00:42:30.750
Next thing I think, embrace the present moment.

00:42:31.869 --> 00:42:35.570
Live now. Brazilians teach me we don't plan.

00:42:35.849 --> 00:42:37.349
And I say, well, what are you going to do Friday

00:42:37.349 --> 00:42:41.679
night? We'll see. We'll see what happens. There

00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:44.039
are people that kind of live on the coattail.

00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:46.800
They don't like them. I like to have a calendar

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:50.579
where I write things down. Not them. Live in

00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:54.420
the moment. Next one is prioritize my relationships

00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:56.860
with people. Make a relationship with people

00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:59.880
as much as I can. Other things. Keep moving.

00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:04.820
Keep enjoying life. Yeah, I'm doing really well.

00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.300
Doing really well here in Brazil. That's only

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:10.539
five. What are the other five? I'm writing them

00:43:10.539 --> 00:43:18.659
down. Well, before that, why don't we talk about

00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:21.880
your book for a little bit? Well, let me just

00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.480
say, seek knowledge daily. I'm trying to find

00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:28.940
something that I learn new every day. Portuguese

00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:31.739
is probably the most difficult language, so I've

00:43:31.739 --> 00:43:35.809
tried to learn Portuguese. as much as I can.

00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:38.650
I have a little sticker. The next one is I have

00:43:38.650 --> 00:43:41.110
a little sticker on my mirror in the morning

00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:45.789
and it says, make it a great day and be thankful.

00:43:46.250 --> 00:43:50.889
You know, I really want to live a grateful life,

00:43:51.250 --> 00:43:55.159
a life of gratitude every day. Wow. And so when

00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:57.780
I lay down at night, I think, well, what kind

00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:00.280
of a day did I have today? I kind of evaluate

00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.280
the day that I have. What was good about today

00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:06.380
that I really can celebrate, you know? Cultivate

00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:09.239
forgiveness. I want to be a person that forgives

00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:13.639
people, let people have mistakes, let people

00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.079
live their lives the way they want to live their

00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:20.380
lives. I'm almost done, I'm almost done. Live

00:44:20.380 --> 00:44:26.320
authentically with passion. So it's really hard

00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:30.380
for Brazilians to be with me because I have a

00:44:30.380 --> 00:44:32.639
big mouth and I don't have a filter, like I said

00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:36.960
before, and I call out their love for their ex

00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:40.860
-president, you know, and somebody said to me,

00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.380
when are you going back to United States? I said,

00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:47.840
well, I can't because United States is bagunçado,

00:44:47.980 --> 00:44:50.860
which means it's a... mess back there. It's a

00:44:50.860 --> 00:44:52.739
mess. I'm not going back there. They went, what

00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:54.840
do you mean it's a mess back there? Brazil's

00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:58.500
a mess. No, no. Brazil, the way you see it, Brazil

00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:02.119
is a beautiful place. Right. What do you want

00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:05.519
to know about my book? It's on Amazon and it's

00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.599
doing okay. I'm kind of glad to be on podcasts.

00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:12.519
Well, I like that. Yeah. So, well, I'm just curious

00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:14.900
if you could tell the viewers generally what

00:45:14.900 --> 00:45:18.910
the book is about. What does it focus on? What's

00:45:18.910 --> 00:45:23.130
the... Well, it's a coming out story. The subtitle

00:45:23.130 --> 00:45:27.570
is a memoir of truth, liberation, and love. It

00:45:27.570 --> 00:45:31.130
details my life from the beginning as a young

00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:35.750
boy, a young man, and then what happens to me

00:45:35.750 --> 00:45:38.869
after that. It's not a very long book. It's like

00:45:38.869 --> 00:45:42.769
a hundred and some pages, but it's good. Pick

00:45:42.769 --> 00:45:46.849
it up. Great one. Yeah, I have tried to get a

00:45:46.849 --> 00:45:49.409
hold of it here. Amazon no longer does sales

00:45:49.409 --> 00:45:52.210
here in China. And I don't really have a good

00:45:52.210 --> 00:45:55.190
way to get hold of it at the point, but I'm very

00:45:55.190 --> 00:45:57.190
interested in reading it. Next time I'm in South

00:45:57.190 --> 00:46:02.369
Africa, I will get that done. I swim every day,

00:46:02.510 --> 00:46:04.869
Ray. And there was this lifeguard that says,

00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:08.210
you're the author of that book. I read your book

00:46:08.210 --> 00:46:12.900
this weekend and he speaks English gladly. because

00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:16.000
it's in English, it's in Portuguese. And he says

00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.920
to me, your life was a mess. He goes, are you

00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:23.800
okay now? I mean, like it's, it was the saddest

00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:28.579
story I've ever read. Yikes, you know, I hope,

00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:31.320
I hope that was not the ending, but that's the

00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:33.380
way he viewed the book. And I was so delighted

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:37.000
that some guy in Brazil had read my book. It

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.400
was kind of cool. Yeah, you know, for me, it's,

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.659
it's kind of wild to have the opportunity to

00:46:43.659 --> 00:46:47.179
speak to, I never imagined in my life before

00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:49.880
that I would have the opportunity to speak to,

00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:55.619
uh, just in, in the past couple of months, you

00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:58.199
know, the, the chairman of the hate crimes committee

00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:04.099
in South Africa published author. the owner of

00:47:04.099 --> 00:47:08.559
the first LGBTQ inclusive hostel on the African

00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:15.280
continent. These things are completely unfathomable

00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:17.659
to me. And it just, for me personally, it shows

00:47:17.659 --> 00:47:22.400
that the more you let go of the things that you

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:25.780
were and that you thought you have to be, the

00:47:25.780 --> 00:47:30.469
more... I don't know. The more alive you come

00:47:30.469 --> 00:47:32.650
to me. And I ask you a question. What's the thing

00:47:32.650 --> 00:47:35.690
that you... What's the thing that you love most

00:47:35.690 --> 00:47:38.210
about your life now? And for me, it's that. For

00:47:38.210 --> 00:47:41.230
me, it's being able to go, hey, yeah, sure. I'll

00:47:41.230 --> 00:47:44.269
do that. I can do that. It doesn't matter. I

00:47:44.269 --> 00:47:48.530
do not care what other people think. Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:48.869 --> 00:47:52.230
And that's... I could not have imagined I'd be

00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:53.909
doing this. A year ago, if you'd asked me, I

00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:57.670
would have said, yeah, it'd be cool. But I honestly

00:47:57.670 --> 00:48:01.550
had no idea of doing this and talking to the

00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:03.630
people we've spoken to. Yeah. Which have all

00:48:03.630 --> 00:48:05.489
been really, really interesting. That's great.

00:48:05.690 --> 00:48:08.230
Ken, I have a question if I may ask. How did

00:48:08.230 --> 00:48:12.110
you meet your current partner? Repeat that again.

00:48:12.110 --> 00:48:15.530
I'm sorry. What? How did you meet your current

00:48:15.530 --> 00:48:19.610
partner? How did I meet my partner? I did it

00:48:19.610 --> 00:48:22.969
the old -fashioned way. We were online together

00:48:22.969 --> 00:48:26.010
because I was an English teacher. and he was

00:48:26.010 --> 00:48:31.590
an English teacher in Brazil. It started off,

00:48:31.889 --> 00:48:35.190
he admits to this and says, it started off with

00:48:35.190 --> 00:48:38.269
him practicing his English with somebody, because

00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:41.050
that's the big deal in Brazil, practice your

00:48:41.050 --> 00:48:43.610
English. You can know it, but you have to practice

00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:46.190
and practice. So he says, I look forward to talking

00:48:46.190 --> 00:48:48.909
to you because I can practice my English. And

00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:50.949
I said, well, I kind of look forward to it because

00:48:50.949 --> 00:48:53.909
I was kind of romantically falling for you, you

00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:56.739
know. And he said, no, not for me, I was learning

00:48:56.739 --> 00:48:59.179
more English and more English and more English.

00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:08.480
So we did an online chat for like weeks and months.

00:49:10.460 --> 00:49:12.340
I don't even know what the title, I don't even

00:49:12.340 --> 00:49:15.739
think it's in existence anymore. But it's not

00:49:15.739 --> 00:49:17.900
just for English teachers, for gay people. It

00:49:17.900 --> 00:49:24.010
was a gay chat line online. Uh, as time went

00:49:24.010 --> 00:49:27.030
on, I said, you know, you really do need to come

00:49:27.030 --> 00:49:29.289
to the United States and visit. And I didn't

00:49:29.289 --> 00:49:34.409
realize how much pressure I put on him to try

00:49:34.409 --> 00:49:38.269
to do that. He went through the visa process

00:49:38.269 --> 00:49:41.989
and immigration and was rejected once and then

00:49:41.989 --> 00:49:46.070
rejected twice. And, um, it wasn't until the

00:49:46.070 --> 00:49:49.880
historic decision by the Supreme court that gay

00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:53.380
people can get married and it affected the American

00:49:53.380 --> 00:50:00.039
government. So we did, um, the fiancee visa approved

00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.599
and he flew to the United States to be with Nikki.

00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.179
Wonderful. We get a new life. And that's really

00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:10.820
when our life began to bloom and blossom, you

00:50:10.820 --> 00:50:17.039
know? Yeah. Good question, Ray. I'm full of them

00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.650
today. What am I going to be that lucky? What

00:50:19.650 --> 00:50:21.690
am I going to find love? Ruby, when's it going

00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:28.369
to happen for me? You have to manifest. You have

00:50:28.369 --> 00:50:31.090
to manifest that it comes. It's coming. Don't

00:50:31.090 --> 00:50:33.309
worry. The ship is sailing. It's just slow. I

00:50:33.309 --> 00:50:36.329
feel like the running gag on this show is my

00:50:36.329 --> 00:50:40.909
really unsuccessful love life. Two things I think

00:50:40.909 --> 00:50:45.969
that will help you. One, travel to Thailand without

00:50:45.969 --> 00:50:54.639
a plan. Two, Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah, same. Come

00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:59.800
to Brazil. There's like a Brazilian guys in Brazil

00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:05.760
or girls Luigi Luigi's. I'm straight. I'm as

00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.619
straight as an arrow. Okay. Well, there's yeah,

00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:12.139
there's many, many beautiful women. Brazil people

00:51:12.139 --> 00:51:16.320
really take care of their, their body. Yes. That

00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:19.260
is the stereotype, isn't it? Well, I remember

00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:25.599
a little story. So one of the things that changes

00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:29.980
when you go on hormones potentially is your sexuality.

00:51:30.179 --> 00:51:35.760
So I grew up a straight man and married a woman

00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:39.159
and I'm still very attracted. I'm bisexual. But

00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:43.500
I remember walking to school one day, a couple

00:51:43.500 --> 00:51:48.179
of weeks after starting. hormones, um, estrogen

00:51:48.179 --> 00:51:51.340
therapy. And a lot of the things in my body had

00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:54.019
started changing, but I remember seeing this

00:51:54.019 --> 00:51:57.639
Brazilian hunk of a man who is our PE teacher

00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.519
and my knee's just going weak. And I went, Oh,

00:52:00.739 --> 00:52:05.619
that's a problem. Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's,

00:52:05.619 --> 00:52:09.940
it's really the capital of baselifts and Botox

00:52:09.940 --> 00:52:13.960
and tummy tucks. It's, it's an amazing country.

00:52:15.210 --> 00:52:19.289
of the way they maintain their face and their

00:52:19.289 --> 00:52:23.369
wrinkles and their body and wow, yeah. And the

00:52:23.369 --> 00:52:27.550
beaches are, wow, they don't like to wear too

00:52:27.550 --> 00:52:32.030
much on the beach. So Luigi, you just gotta come

00:52:32.030 --> 00:52:35.750
and just see the scenery. Come on. Seeing the

00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:39.789
scene. I sound like a degenerate pervert who

00:52:39.789 --> 00:52:42.969
wants to go to a nude beach. No, you don't. You

00:52:42.969 --> 00:52:45.559
sound... a single man who wants to meet someone.

00:52:46.940 --> 00:52:50.840
And Luigi, it's all a part of what you're feeding

00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:55.380
your mind here. Hello, yeah. How you're viewing

00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:59.860
your - Yeah, sure. And wow, I'm taking the psychological

00:52:59.860 --> 00:53:04.079
liberty to tell you this, but yeah, it's like

00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:06.340
how, you know, if I'm always gonna be single,

00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.280
you're always gonna be single, but you have to

00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.780
begin to look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guess Ray and

00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:15.079
I, we want, we want you to be, to be successful

00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:18.480
and to be in a partnership with somebody that

00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:27.800
really appreciate. Thanks. Maybe, Hey, maybe

00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:31.739
she's our next podcast guest. Yeah, maybe she's.

00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:34.900
Maybe that's how it happened. Who knows? Yeah.

00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:37.920
Okay. I want to call all pretty girls. Please

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:42.070
come on to Kaleidoscope. Yes. Sorry, Dewey. I'll

00:53:42.070 --> 00:53:44.849
cut that out of the podcast if you want. Let's

00:53:44.849 --> 00:53:47.349
try, come on, bring it back. Okay. Bring it back.

00:53:48.010 --> 00:53:50.050
I really want to talk about this one thing. Okay.

00:53:50.250 --> 00:53:56.030
So let's go back on the topic of we're all liars.

00:53:56.590 --> 00:54:01.329
So, you know, there's, so Ken New, a person who

00:54:01.329 --> 00:54:03.909
said this, and you could look at it the other

00:54:03.909 --> 00:54:08.150
way. in as much as, you know, we all put on a

00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:10.269
mask. So we're all kind of performing in our

00:54:10.269 --> 00:54:12.070
day -to -day lives. When are we really our true

00:54:12.070 --> 00:54:15.949
selves? Maybe when we're alone. But I said, or

00:54:15.949 --> 00:54:18.449
I mentioned that, you know, when people are coming

00:54:18.449 --> 00:54:21.690
out, there's this idea of like a dichotomy, like

00:54:21.690 --> 00:54:23.909
either or, which isn't true. But I wanted to,

00:54:23.949 --> 00:54:27.710
I mentioned, you know, using a kind of case study

00:54:27.710 --> 00:54:31.289
to provoke another kind of discussion. So I guess

00:54:31.289 --> 00:54:36.460
I'll tell you a story or a story I heard. So

00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:38.920
it's someone else's story. So this person is

00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:42.119
quite religious and they don't, and then for

00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:45.119
example, even though I might declare I'm not

00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:48.059
religious, they say, no, I believe you are because

00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:51.000
of how you are as a person, how you act. Like

00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.619
you're such a good person and only a good person

00:54:53.619 --> 00:54:56.519
can like be religious. And I'm just thinking,

00:54:57.099 --> 00:54:58.800
or believe in God, let's say. And I go, well,

00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.550
I don't. necessarily agree with that, but whatever.

00:55:01.670 --> 00:55:03.510
So that's that kind of person. So this person

00:55:03.510 --> 00:55:06.469
also shared a story with me about how they knew

00:55:06.469 --> 00:55:11.190
a young queer woman and she was very young, a

00:55:11.190 --> 00:55:16.489
teenager, and they were gay. But then this person

00:55:16.489 --> 00:55:21.750
by association, I guess, somehow brought this

00:55:21.750 --> 00:55:26.510
young teenager into the church or it was just

00:55:26.510 --> 00:55:30.119
by osmosis. moved them so much religiously that

00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:33.719
this young person is no longer gay. They are

00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:35.940
straight, by some act of providence. And every

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:39.480
day this same person, this teenager, now an adult,

00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:42.380
thanks them every day for what they've done.

00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:46.780
Now, my question is, or I guess I just wanna

00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:49.260
ask in general, like, can, I personally don't,

00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:53.360
I still think that person is queer, but they

00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:56.440
are living in a... or a culture where they just

00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:58.460
really can't be true to themselves. So you have

00:55:58.460 --> 00:56:04.559
this faith can reshape identity. And I mean,

00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:08.940
it can force, it can do that, but is it an honest

00:56:08.940 --> 00:56:12.639
shaping? Is it authentic? There, I'm using that

00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.139
word again. Because when I hear the story of

00:56:16.139 --> 00:56:21.079
a young queer person was queer, but then they

00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:22.780
found the church and now they're straight, I

00:56:22.780 --> 00:56:25.780
find that very, very difficult. to believe. Why

00:56:25.780 --> 00:56:29.219
would a young person even choose, again, choose

00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:33.280
to be queer in the first place? Children, teenagers,

00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:36.900
young people, youth, they don't do that. You

00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:38.739
know, they're very good at following their desires

00:56:38.739 --> 00:56:40.280
and doing what they want. You know, that's why

00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:43.480
school's so hard. You know, they gotta do work.

00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.880
They're effectively selfish. So, spiritual intervention.

00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:50.820
Can it alter someone's innate sexuality? Ken's

00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:53.059
already shaking his head. I don't believe so.

00:56:53.260 --> 00:56:58.019
I don't believe. Yeah, and I don't believe it

00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:03.119
either. And I live in a culture in Brazil here

00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:08.260
that is so typical. The little town there, Venetians,

00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:11.380
my partner, is from called Baja de San Miguel.

00:57:11.980 --> 00:57:16.619
We go there a lot. And there are three or four

00:57:16.619 --> 00:57:21.119
or five very, very, I'm just going to say very

00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:25.320
feminine kind of gay guys that work in the church,

00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:29.900
the Catholic church. I just said, I pulled one

00:57:29.900 --> 00:57:33.739
apart over and I said, why, why do you work in

00:57:33.739 --> 00:57:36.039
such an organization like this, the church? And

00:57:36.039 --> 00:57:39.119
they went, you know, everything they said, all

00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:42.280
of them said that it's just, of course it all

00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:46.239
falls short, but this is where we find satisfaction

00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:48.940
and health, but the church hasn't converted them.

00:57:49.610 --> 00:57:52.530
And they haven't covered the church at all, but

00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:55.909
there's room here in the culture, in the Catholic

00:57:55.909 --> 00:58:00.269
Church, for gay people to be involved for something.

00:58:01.050 --> 00:58:03.750
You could say, well, aren't they using them?

00:58:03.829 --> 00:58:06.489
Aren't they kind of like using their abilities

00:58:06.489 --> 00:58:10.690
and talents? Maybe, I don't know. So these are

00:58:10.690 --> 00:58:12.489
just queer people in the church. They're still

00:58:12.489 --> 00:58:18.380
queer. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. We have

00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:21.920
four trans people in this little small town.

00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:24.940
There's just room for them. There's no judgment.

00:58:25.559 --> 00:58:30.380
But again, you don't talk about it. You don't

00:58:30.380 --> 00:58:36.340
express it. You never verbalize it. There's an

00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:39.360
exercise queen. I call her the exercise queen.

00:58:39.739 --> 00:58:43.119
And she's got like long fingernails. And she's

00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:47.559
got huge, big... thighs. She's very athletic.

00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:53.000
I said to Bernice, why don't she wear those nails?

00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:56.460
And he says, because she's a guy. And he looked

00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.119
at me like, what? Don't you know that she's a

00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:03.139
guy? And I went, wow, I guess I didn't. Wow,

00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:06.599
OK. There's so many things that I'm learning

00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:10.199
about this culture that's so different than the

00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:15.989
way I grew up. I don't think that, you know,

00:59:15.989 --> 00:59:18.829
I'm trying to articulate this carefully. When

00:59:18.829 --> 00:59:21.510
you say it's not spoken about, I agree. Like

00:59:21.510 --> 00:59:24.789
when we ignore something, we don't address it

00:59:24.789 --> 00:59:27.409
and we don't like say, hey, you're welcome here.

00:59:28.610 --> 00:59:33.250
That's a problem. But when the culture is one

00:59:33.250 --> 00:59:37.530
of, it doesn't matter, not to the point of ignoring,

00:59:37.929 --> 00:59:41.570
but to the point of where discussion isn't necessary.

00:59:41.769 --> 00:59:45.789
as the closest ideal example I can think of Thailand

00:59:45.789 --> 00:59:49.190
where the gender is extremely gendered. I mean

00:59:49.190 --> 00:59:51.969
the language is extremely gendered to the point

00:59:51.969 --> 00:59:55.969
where you can on the fly choose how you interact

00:59:55.969 --> 00:59:59.190
with people based on how you sign off on every

00:59:59.190 --> 01:00:02.539
sentence that you say. through cup and car. And

01:00:02.539 --> 01:00:05.460
so it's not actually spoken about. It doesn't

01:00:05.460 --> 01:00:08.639
need to be spoken about. It's known and accepted

01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.360
and people are treated the way that they want

01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:15.780
to be treated. I think there's a society where

01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:20.079
it doesn't need to be spoken about. And we have

01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:25.619
pride, the pride parade for acceptance. not for

01:00:25.619 --> 01:00:28.940
as a lot of misconstruence for conversion. The

01:00:28.940 --> 01:00:32.880
Pride Parade is needed because there is exclusion.

01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:37.059
Once exclusion stops, the parade will probably

01:00:37.059 --> 01:00:43.320
end. Yeah. Brazil has the largest Pride parade

01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:47.019
in the world. It's about four million people.

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:52.679
Wow. I want to go. Yeah, you really, it's really

01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:56.670
something. I went one Sunday. I mean, it's amazing,

01:00:57.650 --> 01:01:00.570
but Brazil has a lot of problems. I don't want

01:01:00.570 --> 01:01:04.489
to say they're an accepting culture. I'm just

01:01:04.489 --> 01:01:07.789
saying that. And there's a lot of violence, of

01:01:07.789 --> 01:01:14.309
course, against trans people here. I'm just saying,

01:01:14.590 --> 01:01:19.530
you know, my learning curve is just so far. I

01:01:19.530 --> 01:01:23.500
mean, it's just beginning to learn. to sit down

01:01:23.500 --> 01:01:30.500
and have lunch with this young woman, who's like

01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:34.519
a pillar in our little town, and to realize,

01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:39.579
and to have Benises tell me, she's a guy, you

01:01:39.579 --> 01:01:44.460
know? And I went, what? I mean, I always - No,

01:01:44.460 --> 01:01:48.400
she isn't though. Yeah, all this time in my mind,

01:01:48.619 --> 01:01:54.170
I thought, wow, she's got big. Legs, I mean muscular

01:01:54.170 --> 01:01:57.929
legs. She's an athlete, you know and in my mind

01:01:57.929 --> 01:02:02.269
Wow, she does a lot of exercise and then Yeah

01:02:02.269 --> 01:02:06.550
Yeah, it's for me. It's yeah. I have to think

01:02:06.550 --> 01:02:11.010
I have to grow and become more more into my yeah,

01:02:11.329 --> 01:02:14.690
and also to a large extent Yes, she is working

01:02:14.690 --> 01:02:18.960
out. Hey It used to be rather muscular too. And

01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:21.280
estrogen, estrogen, the moment you start taking

01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:25.420
it, it declares war on muscle mass. You cannot

01:02:25.420 --> 01:02:31.500
keep it. Yeah. And so that will probably disappear

01:02:31.500 --> 01:02:37.760
over time for her. So, Ken, let me, let me ask

01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:42.500
you then. Yeah, I knew Luigi had questions. I

01:02:42.500 --> 01:02:45.260
knew Luigi had questions. Bring it on Luigi.

01:02:45.550 --> 01:02:48.190
I'm just, okay, let's say you heard this story.

01:02:48.429 --> 01:02:50.789
You ran into this young queer girl who said,

01:02:51.190 --> 01:02:54.889
I was queer, but now I have been moved by the

01:02:54.889 --> 01:02:57.730
church and now I'm straight. What would you tell

01:02:57.730 --> 01:03:00.130
them? How would you respond to that? Because

01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:02.349
I think you're like me and you think it's not,

01:03:03.250 --> 01:03:06.090
I hate to say it's not true, but you know, they're

01:03:06.090 --> 01:03:08.510
not being honest with themselves. How would you

01:03:08.510 --> 01:03:11.889
approach that? You know, I could just begin to

01:03:11.889 --> 01:03:14.369
tell her a little bit about my story and say,

01:03:15.240 --> 01:03:20.119
It's very important, no matter how old you are

01:03:20.119 --> 01:03:24.780
right now, to begin to think about the path that

01:03:24.780 --> 01:03:28.699
you're going. What do you really, really see

01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:32.760
in the mirror each morning? Who's that person?

01:03:32.900 --> 01:03:36.880
Who are you? And to begin to challenge her or

01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:42.280
him about the things that... the path that she's

01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:44.639
gone to. You know, there's so many, I'm sorry,

01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:48.280
there's so many Mormon guys. I ran into two Mormon

01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:50.539
missionaries the other day here on the street

01:03:50.539 --> 01:03:52.760
and I went, oh my God. They're a lot here too.

01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:55.340
You guys are so gay. You know, I just wanted

01:03:55.340 --> 01:04:00.039
to go, wow. You know, you're just so gay. You

01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:01.699
know, they're in their white shirts and they

01:04:01.699 --> 01:04:04.239
got their little name tag on. And I said, where

01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:07.320
are you from? Utah. And we're here for two years,

01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:10.389
blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to go. So

01:04:10.389 --> 01:04:12.789
I said, well, I'm gay. I told him right out,

01:04:13.030 --> 01:04:15.389
I'm gay. And they went, well, great, God still

01:04:15.389 --> 01:04:17.469
loves you, blah, blah, blah, still loves me.

01:04:17.710 --> 01:04:22.530
I said, well, thank you. I wanted to keep picking

01:04:22.530 --> 01:04:26.269
at them, picking at them, picking at them. Because

01:04:26.269 --> 01:04:29.849
they're not living their life. Fully bought into

01:04:29.849 --> 01:04:32.510
being Mormon missionaries here in Brazil. And

01:04:32.510 --> 01:04:36.389
I want to say, Lord, what do you guys do at night

01:04:36.389 --> 01:04:43.380
together? Anyways. There's this unspoken rule

01:04:43.380 --> 01:04:46.719
in the trans community when it comes to identifying

01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:50.960
that someone is trans. And I think this is actually

01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:56.300
quite important is to not say it. Like if I met

01:04:56.300 --> 01:05:00.739
this girl who says that she is no longer queer

01:05:00.739 --> 01:05:03.199
in whichever way she was because of the church,

01:05:04.019 --> 01:05:06.400
I personally would have my reservations on that,

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:09.150
but I'm not going to try and change her. Because

01:05:09.150 --> 01:05:11.809
at the end of the day, how she expresses and

01:05:11.809 --> 01:05:14.369
what she wants to do is her choice. And that's

01:05:14.369 --> 01:05:20.250
the choice that I am fighting for as well. So

01:05:20.250 --> 01:05:24.530
I will be supportive. I will tell her my story

01:05:24.530 --> 01:05:26.710
and I will hope that she is supportive of me

01:05:26.710 --> 01:05:29.889
in the same way. And I will always doubt whether

01:05:29.889 --> 01:05:34.210
she is actually, but that is my problem to carry.

01:05:35.349 --> 01:05:38.840
Yeah. And Ray? You've said something very important,

01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:43.820
very spiritual today. You said, we can't change

01:05:43.820 --> 01:05:47.639
anybody. We really can't change anybody. We can

01:05:47.639 --> 01:05:52.940
only change ourselves. I can't change her. Who

01:05:52.940 --> 01:05:57.139
in the church has the idea that you can try to

01:05:57.139 --> 01:05:59.960
change other people? That's insane. It's just

01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:02.980
insane. And I did it most of my life. I tried,

01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:05.940
I tried and tried, you know? I did it with my...

01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:09.059
Pray the gay away. Yeah, I did it with my own

01:06:09.059 --> 01:06:13.519
sons. I tried to change them. And I look at my

01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:16.739
spouse, and I think, okay, I don't like this.

01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:19.539
I want you to do this. And I have to catch myself.

01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:23.099
I'm not going to change him. He's got to, like,

01:06:23.159 --> 01:06:27.260
want to do that, you know? Yeah. I tell him...

01:06:27.260 --> 01:06:29.840
Ruby, that was a great answer. I tell him, yeah.

01:06:30.179 --> 01:06:34.099
I tell him Friday and Saturday... culturally,

01:06:34.599 --> 01:06:37.320
they drink, and they drink really heavily in

01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:41.000
Brazil. And I don't like that. I wish he wouldn't

01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:44.059
do that. And I've expressed that. But I'm not

01:06:44.059 --> 01:06:46.980
gonna change it. I'm gonna say, hey, my culture

01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:49.320
is better than yours. Don't go out drinking Friday,

01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:52.300
Saturday, and come in at three in the morning,

01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:57.099
four in the morning. I'm not gonna change it.

01:06:58.219 --> 01:07:04.849
I like that rate. Ray gets the crown today. She

01:07:04.849 --> 01:07:07.449
gets the crown for saying, I'm not going to change

01:07:07.449 --> 01:07:09.949
her. I'm going to tell her my story. I'm going

01:07:09.949 --> 01:07:13.650
to tell her who I am. I think that's a good idea.

01:07:14.710 --> 01:07:17.469
Ken, that's why you became, I think, a writer

01:07:17.469 --> 01:07:19.590
for the most part, to tell a story. I think people

01:07:19.590 --> 01:07:22.670
respond to stories. Really, that is how you change

01:07:22.670 --> 01:07:25.389
people, I think. That's how people learn. They

01:07:25.389 --> 01:07:32.039
learn more effectively from stories. as a species,

01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:37.820
as human beings. Storytelling is how people bonded,

01:07:38.579 --> 01:07:42.880
how villages learned. In Brazil, the Protestant

01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:48.539
Church is very conservative, politically and

01:07:48.539 --> 01:07:52.619
spiritually very conservative. So for me to blow

01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:55.360
somebody's mind is for me to tell a Brazilian.

01:07:56.159 --> 01:08:02.079
I was an evangelical person. And they go, you

01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:05.639
were? And I said, more than that, I was an evangelical

01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:09.360
pastor. And they kind of, they just kind of like,

01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:15.519
oh my gosh. Yeah, it just blows up away. And

01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:19.699
so one woman, I was out at a party and she says

01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:22.300
to me, she says, yeah, but there's a lot of scriptures

01:08:22.300 --> 01:08:26.359
about homosexuals. And I went, really? I said,

01:08:26.460 --> 01:08:28.100
well, there's a lot of scriptures about feeding

01:08:28.100 --> 01:08:31.539
the poor. So, you know, are you going to use

01:08:31.539 --> 01:08:35.140
the Bible on me? Don't use the Bible on me, because

01:08:35.140 --> 01:08:38.460
it's not going to happen. It's been too much

01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:40.720
time reading the Bible and knowing the Bible

01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:44.560
inside and out, you know, for somebody to try

01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:49.020
to trump me on, you know. The Bible says this

01:08:49.020 --> 01:08:51.840
about homosexuals. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it does

01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:56.220
it, and did it. Is an even more pertinent question.

01:08:56.600 --> 01:09:00.100
Did it say so in the beginning when it was written?

01:09:00.659 --> 01:09:04.239
Or does it say so now? Yeah, retconning the Bible.

01:09:05.300 --> 01:09:07.979
Yeah, retconning the Bible. Ruby Ray's TED Talk.

01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.060
On that note, I think we should probably draw

01:09:11.060 --> 01:09:14.739
today's podcast into conclusion. Ken, I want

01:09:14.739 --> 01:09:17.680
to thank you for coming on to Kaleidoscope. And

01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:19.640
if you ever want to have another conversation

01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:23.039
with us, you are more than welcome to. You will

01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:25.560
always be welcome here. Thank you. Thank you

01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:28.399
guys. Both you, Luigi and Ray, thank you. You

01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:33.520
guys are delightful people to talk to. Ken, if

01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:36.460
our listeners want to find you, they can find

01:09:36.460 --> 01:09:39.859
your book on Amazon. It's called The Gospel of

01:09:39.859 --> 01:09:45.319
Secrets, A Memoir of Truth. Yeah, liberation,

01:09:45.699 --> 01:09:48.439
truth, liberation and love. A Memoir of Truth,

01:09:48.500 --> 01:09:51.180
Liberation and Love. Is there any other social

01:09:51.180 --> 01:09:53.140
media you would like to point our listeners to?

01:09:54.060 --> 01:09:57.840
If I have an email, but I'm not a big yeah, it's

01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:08.340
create some 81 at gmail create some 81 Yeah,

01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:11.460
the number 81 create some at gmail You can also

01:10:11.460 --> 01:10:13.680
reach out to me if you have questions for ken

01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:17.579
and I will forward them on to him You can find

01:10:17.579 --> 01:10:23.710
luigi Wherever you find kaleidoscope In the ether,

01:10:24.609 --> 01:10:29.649
you can find me, Ruby Rae, at firefromheat on

01:10:29.649 --> 01:10:33.529
Instagram or on Kaleidoscope at Echo Perspectives

01:10:33.529 --> 01:10:37.670
on YouTube. And you can also find my personal

01:10:37.670 --> 01:10:43.659
vlog on Ruby Raed on YouTube. Thank you so much

01:10:43.659 --> 01:10:46.159
for listening and we will see you again. Ken,

01:10:46.859 --> 01:10:50.439
I'm going to end the recording now. I would like

01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:52.560
for you just to stay on for a minute or two,

01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:54.239
please. That's good.