Welcome to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray
Liu and today I'm joined by Ken Wortley, former
pastor and middle school coach and current resident
in Brazil, which really intrigues me. Ken, welcome
to Kaleidoscope. Thank you. Good morning. Good
evening. Good afternoon. Whatever time's on your
end. Great. Glad to be here. This is going to
be fun for us. I believe so. We are also joined
by my co -host, Luigi. Luigi, welcome. Thank
you. Luigi here, former cart pusher. Reformed
shopping cart pusher. Reformed shopping. Please
elaborate on when you were pushing carts and
why. When I was a teenager and I needed a job,
I worked at a grocery store. I had to push carts.
I'm bigger than this. I got dreams. Well, then,
in that case, I am Ruby Ray Liu, former bookseller,
because that was my first job. Still, better
job. I would have killed to have that job as
a teenager. Working in a bookstore? Wow. I think
we've had this conversation informally, Ruby.
And I was a conservative Baptist preacher in
the United States. Hey -o! We're going to talk
about that. That was your first job? That was,
that was my career. I worked really hard to get
a master's of divinity in Philadelphia and preached
and was a very successful pastor. I did a lot
of good messages. Most of them were anti -gay,
anti -LGBT. So yeah. Wow. You've come a long
way because this is an expressly LGBTQ podcast.
Yeah, here I am. Here I am. Wow. Wow. I'm super,
super interested in that. When we start Kaleidoscope,
we always do kind of a quick fire round in the
beginning. And my question then would be, what
is the moment for you that changed and you went,
hey, LGBTQ people should be welcomed into the
church? I never got there in the church. In my
career as a pastor, I never welcomed. LGBTQ people
at all. First part of my life was really suppression
of those kinds of thoughts. And I didn't entertain
the idea that God could create gay people. And
I knew that God had made a big mistake by creating
me. So I saw myself as one who was against against
God's will and God's way. When did I come out?
I wish I had a dramatic story to tell the audience
today. As my marriage began to crumble and began
to really un on the ropes as you say, my wife
and I lived in the same house with our two sons
and we really didn't communicate at all for probably
up to a year. lived in the same house, didn't
communicate. All of our marriage of 20 -some
years, we never brought up the issue of the subject
of being gay. We knew that there was this elephant
in our room in our marriage, but we never addressed
it. We could smell it, we could touch it, we
could feel it. but we never even addressed it,
ever, ever, ever. And the pressure was added
that the American society and culture began to
change. An American president began to speak
about gay issues and gay couples. Oprah Winfrey
had a guy that was married to a straight woman.
And all of that was pressure on me as I was an
adult. My wife and I lived together, and yet
we never talked about it. One day, out of the
blue and I can't tell you why. She came down
the stairs in where I was living in the lower
portion of the house and she said, how long have
you known you were gay? And that's my coming
out story. I bumbled and fumbled and began to
sweat because I didn't know what to say. I didn't
want to sound stupid and I didn't want to sound
like I was going to tell the truth. Because most
of my life was a life of telling lies and hiding.
And so the, the title of the book is the gospel
of secrets. So all of my life was a secret. Yeah.
As, as. Yeah, go ahead. That is, you say it's
not a dramatic story for me. That is extremely
dramatic and relatable actually. Well, because
if I may. I think it's common. I think it's common.
Let me tell you what I told her. I said, I'm
not gay. And she looked at me and she went, you
really do need some help. You really do need
to face who you are as a person. She says, I'm
known for a long time that you're homosexual.
So I went, okay, so what do you want to do? And
she says, I really want you to move out. I really
want you to get. your life together, your act
together. So it was her. It was her that actually
shined the light on my personal life and my orientation.
Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. If I may,
like I will share my coming out story just briefly
because I've spoken a lot about it on this podcast.
I don't want to bore Luigi. But I was in severe
denial as well and didn't know what to do was
openly cross -dressing and embracing my femininity
But because I'm in this conservative society
China had no way of getting the medication that
I needed Until one day I met a fellow trans girl
from the UK and she gave me a contact for getting
Non prescription estrogen. And when I held that
box in my hand, it was a, like a lightning rod
moment. And I came out to my partner, my wife,
and we're still married and we're still happy.
Um, I was outed to my parents by my sister who
is lesbian. Uh, that's my story. My mom's birthday,
I found her and she said, Hey, I read your letter.
It's okay. It's not really okay. It hasn't been
okay. Our relationship is severely damaged, but
it is healing slowly. So I have hope. Wow. Amazing.
I didn't know you had an internal struggle. I
had it. Yeah. Yeah. Internal struggles put it
mildly. there's a good chunk of people that really
don't understand that dual life, that we have
to live, that we live. I spoke to a gay friend
here and he says, I don't understand what you're
talking about telling the truth in lies. He says,
the whole gay community lies. And I went, wow,
okay, gee. He goes, we were born liars. And I
went, I don't know. I don't know if that's true,
but. Yeah, I was surprised by his response to
my book, by saying, this call to tell the crew,
he goes, every day we have to lie. And I went,
okay, it was just different for me to hear, you
know. It's an interesting take, every day we
have to lie. Yeah. I can understand what that
person's saying, without diverging too much,
just real quick. Yeah. I guess like you can consider
polite society Kind of, no, lie, lie -ish, if
that's the word. We do lie in as much as we are
being polite, I guess. You know, for example.
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Hey, good morning. How are
you? Oh, I'm good. Are you really good, though?
I mean, I say it. Right. But I'm not going to
tell them what I really think. Anyway, that's
just diverging. Exactly. To protect yourself.
No, I think you're onto something. I do think
you're onto something because... If it is true
that the LGBTQ population are born liars and
have to lie every single day, then that is true
for everyone. Everyone has to lie every single
day to hide the truth of themselves. And we touched
on it with another guest who said he has cis
straight men coming into his hostel looking for
hookups. That situation exists because they are
lying to themselves because they have to lie.
It's not because they're a gang. Yeah, it's interesting.
There's a great book out called Why Do We Lie
to Ourselves? I'm trying to get it from Amazon,
but somebody told me that I should read that
book because it's like, why do people lie to
themselves? They need to protect themselves.
It's a self -protection kind of a psychological
move. I don't know, I was just taking back Ray
and I didn't understand, I didn't respond to...
this guy, as well as what you just stated. I
wish, I wish I could have thought of an answer.
I just didn't think about, I haven't thought
about being born using a liar lying as, as a
mechanism to continue our lives. Yeah, I wouldn't,
I wouldn't blame you for not having a response
immediately. I've spent a lot of time thinking
about it because It still happens on a daily
basis where somebody can ask me a question that
blindsides me. Because suddenly I'm confronted
with the reality of everything that I've done
in my life to hide this struggle, not because
I want to hide, not because I hate myself, but
because I am trying to stay safe. When I was
first... The first conversation I ever had with
my therapist at the end, it was the onboarding
to see if she wants to actually be my therapist.
She asked, what would I say to the person that
I am now if my personality were split into feminine
and masculine? Because both of these things exist
in everyone. What would the feminine say to the
masculine? Right now, if I had a frank conversation
and the response, even though I had never thought
of it in my life was thank you for keeping me
alive. Yeah. And that is why the deception, the,
the, the hiding exists. Yeah. You know, I can
go, um, going back to my story, not that I want
to tell Michael's story as much, but you know,
I really. I really developed a lifestyle of lying
and some people learn to tell the truth. I learned
to lie really well and I learned to cover it
really well. Because theologically, theologically,
I knew that that was really crucial. I was born
and raised a Baptist and mom and dad expected
me to be very religious and to be very spiritual.
I was pushed or encouraged to become a good pastor,
to find a wife, to find the first church and
begin to preach God's word. All of that were
layers and layers and layers and layers of years
and days and minutes in which I really was never
authentic with my wife. with my kids, with my
job, with my church members, with my friends,
with myself. It just was an impossible lifestyle
that I was living. And it took its toll. It does
take its toll on your health and your mind and
your thinking. And you look for destructive ways
to express your urges as a homosexual man. Ken,
you were a pastor. and you stopped being a pastor,
you wrote a book, the name of your book is, say
it again, just real quick. The Gospel of Secrets
in Memoir and Proof. So, you say you were pushed
into being a pastor, essentially, or it was just
like, your life, your family, all very strongly
religious. Your parents, were they also in the
church, like pastors, things like that? The church,
Luigi, the church was an extension of our family.
When the church was open. We were there. A great
story is when I was a preteen, my grandparents
and my aunts and uncles would set up chairs in
the living room as they ironed and do housework.
And I was in the front preaching with an open
Bible. I was kind of moved into that way. I had
an older brother. I had an older brother who
was not so uh, religious. And so he smoked and
he drank and he went with girls that do, you
know, all that whole line. Me? No, no, no, no.
I was a people. I was, I still am kind of a little
people pleaser. I like to please people. Right.
Okay. So can I ask, so now you're out, you know,
openly gay, but, and you say, you know, one day
your, your wife, you know, at a tipping point
said, you know, you are gay. But, so you were,
and correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, if you
were denying it to yourself, did you ever, growing
up, in your life, up until that point, know you
were gay or had, you know, personal kinds of,
I don't know, thoughts or desires and you just
thought, you know, these are just thoughts, ignore
them? And I ask this now because I think I have
something we can discuss. later on. That's a
really interesting kind of dynamic to your story.
And I think it will answer a lot of questions
about religion and homosexuality and how they
kind of antagonize each other. You know, theologically,
I'd like to go back to seminary to see where
they are now. Theology and the church was pretty
divided over the issue. So, of course, I was
on one side of the issue and preached against
it. Very few churches and very few theologians
were all saying, yeah, we need to redefine some
of these scriptures. We need to relook at some
of the scriptures. For me, that wasn't a possibility.
Was there a time, and this is the question I
hear a lot from my podcast, people that ask me
questions. When was the time you really knew
you were gay? Yeah. And you know what? I don't
like that question. Okay. Because it probably
shouldn't be answered by anyone really. When
did you know you were gay? When did you really
come to terms with who you are as a person? Right,
yeah. When did I know I was gay? I began the
journey when she voiced the word, how long have
you known you were gay? I have never even used
that. I went to school a couple days later and
I was telling my school teacher friend, and I
told her, I says, you know, I said, I think we're
getting a divorce. And she says, oh no, no, you
can't get a divorce. She says, you probably need
to do some counseling. I know this great person
that could do marriage counseling. And I says,
yeah, but Marcy, I think I'm gay. It was the
first time I spit those words out. I kind of
held back a little bit thinking, wow, you just
said it. That was amazing for me to say out loud.
And she looked at me like, what? You're gay?
How did you know you were gay? And all that kind
of thing. So that was a whole nother discussion.
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, go ahead, Brad. I want
to say, I like to tell stories. The whole book
is about stories. By all means, yeah. My mother
was in her 90s and very proud of her son and
pastor and school teacher. And very proud that
I was married and had two kids and she was delighted
about the marriage and the family. I just, I
thought I'm never going to tell my mom, no matter
what, I'm never going to tell my mom that I'm
gay. I'm never, she's never going to read it.
She's never going to find out. I'm never gonna
do this. But every single day she would say,
okay, I found this pastor friend of mine who
does marriage counseling and he's gonna help
you get your marriage back together. I said,
mom, we gotta stop this. So every day I'd pick
her up and she would start in with that endless
litany of. You know, when are you going to, when
are you going to go back to your wife? When are
you going to, I said, mom, we were just living
together in, I was in the basement. She goes,
so finally, um, I told her, I said, you know,
the problem is with me. I'm homosexual. And when
I said that, I kind of regretted it because she
just wept. She wept for, for days, for weeks.
A couple of months later, she fell out of bed
and broke her hip and had surgery and came back
in the room after she was recovering. And I said,
how are you doing? She said, well, I can't handle
living in the same city as you. So I'm going
to move back to Michigan to be with your brother.
I can't help you. I don't know when this started.
When do you think this started, this gay thing?
And I said, it probably started, I don't know,
in your womb? Yeah, yeah. Before I was born and
that wasn't good news for her to hear. Anyways,
yeah. I struggle with this kind of viewpoint
from the church and from religious people. It's
one that my brother also Used he said he he framed
it perfectly actually even from a from a point
of ignorance. He said It's like you're saying
God made a mistake and God doesn't make mistakes
Yeah, well, that's the point. It's not a mistake
It's just who I am. It's just what I am. It does
not come from anywhere if I'm not a religious
person myself, but If God made me this way, it
was with intent. And that is the only thing that
needs to be known. It doesn't need to be understood.
I don't understand straight people. I've tried.
I tried so hard. What? You never told me. You're
funny. That's cool. Yes. You know, it's not a
choice getting, getting that to live with that
point of view. that it's not a choice, not any
more than me choosing I have blue eyes, you know?
It's human choice. And to let that sink in to
our soul is really, really important. It's a
crucial step, because if we see it as a choice,
then it's different. Yeah, and I think... To
add to that, I think this is the problem with
sexuality is that people see it as a dichotomy.
You're either or. And so that's why people probably
ask you the question, which now that you say
it to me this way, I'll think about how I ask
it in the future. When did you know? Or when
did you become? But they treat it like a dichotomy,
but really, you know, thought has been from scholars
in the last, I don't know. a couple decades maybe,
that, you know, sexuality, gender, whatever,
it's fluid. And if we recognize it as fluid,
you're right. There cannot be a point when you
decide to be something that is authentic, which
I hate to use the word, but authentic in as much
as that's the starting point. It was just denying
it or, you know. Yeah. Hiding it because for
whatever reason, for whatever reason we have
to do it. And I mean, we know why people don't
come out and hide their sexuality, obviously.
I have a question. Okay, go ahead. Two questions.
How did you reconcile this? And the second question,
or how did you reconcile the unthought that you
were a mistake in God's eyes into a you aren't?
And the other question is right now there is
a movement of queer people called lgb without
the t because they are trying to it's kind of
like a pick me situation where we're better than
trans people because we're not so uh quote unquote
extreme what would you say to them you know let
me think about that one it's it's hard thinking
about theology and how to reconcile myself. I
need to be honest and say that was a long struggle,
a long process of therapy. I went to four or
five different therapists who just prescribed
drugs for me to continue to live and a sleeping
pill. pill to wake up with, a pill to be depressed.
And so I had like five different pills that I
was taking. I finally came to a therapist who
had no prescription pad, but just wanted to listen
and to unlearn. I like that word, unlearn, some
thinking that I had bought into the basis of
my life, breaking apart the foundations that
I had built. my lies and my life. She helped
me. She asked me if I had ever journaled and
I'm just like, I don't journal. I'll write things
down. And she said, I really would like you to
start journaling, start writing things down about
everything from your food to your drink, to your
thinking, to your behavior. And so that's how
I began to think about my life and began to write.
And so it became kind of an addiction for me
to write and began to write titles of books or
what people had said or to write what a young
man would say to me about, well, we're all lying.
So writing down life and then going back and
looking to build this powerful, really powerful.
I think about my friend Ray Bolts, who's a Christian
singer. And I wouldn't expect you guys maybe
from not the area of the United States to remember
him or know him. It kind of made his own story
about coming out. But he wrote us this great
song called, God Knows I Tried. And he writes,
when they said I was a sinner, I was struggling
with my youth and with the hope that God could
change me. I believed that it was the truth.
So I spent my whole life trying to be what they
said I should. And on the inside, I was dying
because I never really could. I was so good at
pretending like an actor on a stage. In the end,
nobody knew me. Only the roles that I portrayed,
I loved that. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking
about. Yeah. I don't know about your second question,
Ray. I'm still kind of struggling with that.
And I live in a culture of Brazil. Brazil is
so, it's such a different kind of a culture here
with the LGBT group. You can have a trans daughter
or son. But you can't talk about it. You can't
bring it up. You can't address it. It's kind
of similar to my situation. You can have a gay
son or a lesbian daughter, and everybody knows
that nobody's talking about it. Nobody's affirming
it. Yeah, Ruby and I are familiar with this,
actually, because we know someone from Brazil
who is queer. Yeah. Ruby, what do you think?
He loves listening to podcasts. Yeah, wow. I'm
struggling to figure out ways to articulate as
well, because there's this torrent of anti -queer
media and rhetoric from multiple, it seems like
many sources, but really it's coming from one
or two controlling points. And those are predominantly
staged in the US, unfortunately, which is ironic
because that used to be. Yeah. And it's all power
plays. For example, the anti -LGBTQ movement
in South Africa comes from a place I like to
refer to as the Cape Town mafia. It's a rich
conservative think tank in Cape Town, which is
linked into politics. And they drive that. That's
what they do because they have money. Right.
And it's probably, I'm guessing, Thai theological
church people. People that I don't believe that
the church is exclusive by nature. So people
that believe they are theological, but I don't
think that they are actually. Personal thought.
I don't think that theology is exclusive in any
way. No, obviously it's not, but. I made a statement
at a cocktail party a couple of weeks ago that
I said that the church is really a scam. And
I don't have a filter too well. Neither do we,
don't worry. The people that were there didn't
take it well. And I said, you know, I looked
back at the church and I really realized that
it's a controlling group, organization. it's
a controlling group of people. And the more that
they can control and the more that they can have
their fingers in controlling, the better. So
when they put up media, things like that in the
United States and Africa or wherever in the world,
the issue is control. I don't know how to control
a trans population. I don't know how to control
a homosexual son. I think you really touched
that. I think you're right. You're right. Thanks.
You're right to a degree. I would agree in that
the people who are saying I don't know how to
control are, you know, not the people, not this
secret cabal of people at the top, but just regular
everyday people. For me, I always bring this
down to my own conspiracy that the reason there's
so much focus on, let's say, for example, trans
people being an issue in society is it is a distraction
from the greater issues of government and a small
selection of people, a small group, who is attempting
to maintain power and distract people from real
issues. Like job security, like a failing economy,
things like that. It's really a veiled class
issue and it's just distraction. Just trying
to get people emotional in order to avoid the
real issue at hand. Sorry if I sound redundant,
but so when, you know, that stuff, I have no
truck with that kind of stuff because I just
think it's nonsense. And for the people who are,
you know, staunchly you know, fighting to, you
know, maintain this kind of heteronormativity.
I just think, like, how are you so happy? Like,
do you not see the misery of your life when you
have to, I don't know, pay a mortgage, make money,
make sure you have job security, worry about
health care, but no, instead it's, I don't want
my kids to be turned into gay people or trans
people at school by teachers. For whatever reason,
it's just so absurd, so wrong -headed. tonight,
today, that are gay and are religious, they'll
have the need to be involved in church, in church
work, in theology. So there's that need still.
And so somebody would say, well, what do you
want me to do? Just like, leave the church like
you did? And I went, well, yeah, but that's not
so easy. You do have to do some theological work.
You do have to think and reason and be able to
come up with a, if it's scripture, you have to
come up with some scripture that you can live
with and center on thinking about God as this
mighty, powerful force in your life. And think
about spirituality. Think about some aspects
of life that isn't so restrictive. I mean, how
hard would it be to reinterpret, you know, the
Bible from a queer perspective? I mean, God put
down... What? Oh, come on. Didn't God put down
after the flood, after Noah's flood, didn't he
put down, like, a rainbow? And then didn't that
represent his, like... Luigi. Okay, correct me
if I'm wrong. How hard can it be? It's hard.
It's really hard. Okay. It's hard in as much
as, go ahead. There is a host of scriptures that
need to be re -done, re -thought, re -gone over,
in your mind, in your mind. Right. I'll bring
this up because it was so hard for me. I took
my two sons out for lunch. about a couple of
months later, and I said, okay, guys, I need
to let you know that your mom and I are getting
a divorce, and I need to let you know that your
dad is gay, un -gay. And my one son said, I said,
well, does anybody have any questions? And my
son said, yeah, let me get this straight. Trading,
having sex with guys. You're treating the family
for having sex with guys and it was it was like
and I I went all pretty yeah Well, that was hard.
That was hard for him. You see what you want
to see you hear what you want to hear. Yeah,
yeah, right I do think So yes from a from one
perspective you could say that we need to personally
people who have been brought up within a specific
church, for example, need to rethink about certain
scriptures. But we need to remember that, as
you said before, the church did not want to be
this, but over time it has become an instrument
of control. And that fact alone means that scripture
has been interpreted in order to control and
exclude. So the baseline of that scripture does
not need to be reinterpreted at all. If you run
it back all the way before any, any translations
or anything, it's just inclusive and it protects
women. It protects children. Does not police
identity and sexuality. Yes. Yes. I had forgot
the fact that my brand of Baptists in the United
States split over the Southern Baptists over
the slavery issue. They looked at scripture and
said slavery is wrong. So it's kind of that simple.
Thank you, Ray. It is that simple. You know,
when you think about control or uncontrol, yeah.
Now, are there, okay. So people said some people
had trouble leaving the church, but is there
must be queer churches out there in the world.
You know, welcoming for queer people. Presently.
Yes, I think there is. I believe I haven't been
back to the United States in a while, but I think
the United States has a proliferation of that.
At least inclusive churches. Inclusive. I continue
to go to church after I was divorced and I like
the music. I like the camaraderie, I like being
in God's presence, but I didn't like the message
up there. The guy would get up and speak and
I went, oh crap, I can't live in this church.
I can't be a member of this church. This isn't
gonna work for me. And I did that over and over,
every Sunday, every Sunday, every Sunday. And
I went to one church and I told him that I'm
getting a divorce and I told him that I was kinda
gay and he goes, well you're welcome. To be in
this church, but we don't want you to be a teacher
We don't want you to be Involved in our church,
you know I hope that the end of that kind of
thinking yeah, I would I would agree I I had
my own like slow very slow falling out on the
church when I realized that a lot of the like
first of all that the idea that And I think this
is my own connection to my own identity and my
early struggles with it, even though I was unaware
of the fact. I would read other religious texts
or other religious doctrines from all around
the world. And the core, the core message was
always the same. And then there was this big
problem that I faced with either you are Christian,
or you will burn in hell because the only way
to heaven is through Jesus Christ. I just had
a problem with that because that just fundamentally
means that everybody else is wrong and not everybody
has heard and it puts this like mandate of control
and spreading this word on a group of people.
When other groups are perfectly happy, perfectly
moral, perfectly capable of being amazing societies.
So that like message of inclusion, exclusion.
It's not inclusion, it's exclusion. You are the
other, you are not good unless you are this problem.
And that's why I drifted away from religion.
I would say it's more or less the same for me.
Obviously it happened when I was very young,
like in my teens. But yeah, essentially the same
dynamic. It's this kind of, you know, ours is
right, everyone else's is wrong. I have massive
respect for people like you, Ken, who are able
to, especially from a point of maturity, step
back and go, hey, even though there's this massive
sunk, I presume, I might be wrong, this massive
sunk cost of like, if I step away, there is a
risk of me giving up all of this, even though
that's not the intention, right? The intention
is just to be myself, but then to be able to
say, you know what? Being myself is more worth
than continue this pretense. I think that is
such a like insanely powerful thing to do. It's
fundamentally human and it's beautiful. Thank
you. Thank you. Yeah. I was shopping one day.
And this was maybe a year into this, and I was
living by myself. A church woman came up to me,
a good friend, and she says, she says, pastor.
And I knew I was in trouble when she called me
pastor. She didn't call me by my name. And she
says, we've heard that you're getting a divorce.
And I said, yeah. And she says, and you've entered
into that lifestyle. And I went, you mean the
lifestyle where I cry myself to sleep at night
or? the lifestyle that I take, sleeping pills
sometime to get to sleep, or the lifestyle that
I be a judge by church people. And so I listed
her all of the lifestyles that I was living through,
you know. She had a different lifestyle. I mean,
she thought I was hitting all the gay bars every
Friday night. And yeah, yeah. By the way - More
power to you. Yeah, Baptist. going to a gay bar
was really hard. I don't know. Yeah, I can imagine.
I didn't know what kind of drink to order. I
mean, this couple came up and they had this like
pink drink with little umbrellas in it. I'll
have what they're having, and the guy goes, that's
a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh,
okay. You know, I didn't know what to review.
I didn't like beer. I didn't like the taste of
beer. I said, I like something sweet. That looks
like it's pretty sweet. And they said, we are
sweet. I said, no, I'm not talking about you
two. I'm talking about the drink. Yeah. It was
funny. What's the best part about your life now?
Living in Brazil, remarried, authentically yourself.
What's the thing that you embrace most every
day? That's a great question. Wow, that's a great
question. Well, I'm a fulfilled adult, I think.
At the end of my book, I write 10 things or 10
final thoughts that directs my life every day.
Let me just go with them. Finding peace in something
bigger than me. I can walk to the beach and put
my feet in the sand and view an ocean that's
mightier than me. I don't know if that's a word,
mightier. It's bigger than me, mightier than
me. I can go in the ocean and feel its force.
The waves push me around. I can taste the ocean.
They say as I look out that direction, we could
touch the continent of Africa. I can't see Africa,
but I just have to think about it and believe
that that's true. If I got in a boat or a ship,
we would hit the continent of Africa. For me,
again, to live generously. I'm a rich guy in
Brazil. Not necessarily money, but I like to
give to people. And so it's a developing country.
So when I go out to eat and I have a little pizza
left, I could take it outdoors and give it to
somebody to eat and live generously and to use
some of my resources financially. Next thing,
I like to nourish my temple. That's a scriptural
word. My body honor my physical temple. This
is the only thing I have. A year ago, I had an
open heart surgery here in Brazil. And it helped
me realize that, yeah, I... I have made some
serious mistakes about treating my body as this
temple that can abuse. I can't smoke it. I can't
drink it. I can't become an obese human being.
Next thing I think, embrace the present moment.
Live now. Brazilians teach me we don't plan.
And I say, well, what are you going to do Friday
night? We'll see. We'll see what happens. There
are people that kind of live on the coattail.
They don't like them. I like to have a calendar
where I write things down. Not them. Live in
the moment. Next one is prioritize my relationships
with people. Make a relationship with people
as much as I can. Other things. Keep moving.
Keep enjoying life. Yeah, I'm doing really well.
Doing really well here in Brazil. That's only
five. What are the other five? I'm writing them
down. Well, before that, why don't we talk about
your book for a little bit? Well, let me just
say, seek knowledge daily. I'm trying to find
something that I learn new every day. Portuguese
is probably the most difficult language, so I've
tried to learn Portuguese. as much as I can.
I have a little sticker. The next one is I have
a little sticker on my mirror in the morning
and it says, make it a great day and be thankful.
You know, I really want to live a grateful life,
a life of gratitude every day. Wow. And so when
I lay down at night, I think, well, what kind
of a day did I have today? I kind of evaluate
the day that I have. What was good about today
that I really can celebrate, you know? Cultivate
forgiveness. I want to be a person that forgives
people, let people have mistakes, let people
live their lives the way they want to live their
lives. I'm almost done, I'm almost done. Live
authentically with passion. So it's really hard
for Brazilians to be with me because I have a
big mouth and I don't have a filter, like I said
before, and I call out their love for their ex
-president, you know, and somebody said to me,
when are you going back to United States? I said,
well, I can't because United States is bagunçado,
which means it's a... mess back there. It's a
mess. I'm not going back there. They went, what
do you mean it's a mess back there? Brazil's
a mess. No, no. Brazil, the way you see it, Brazil
is a beautiful place. Right. What do you want
to know about my book? It's on Amazon and it's
doing okay. I'm kind of glad to be on podcasts.
Well, I like that. Yeah. So, well, I'm just curious
if you could tell the viewers generally what
the book is about. What does it focus on? What's
the... Well, it's a coming out story. The subtitle
is a memoir of truth, liberation, and love. It
details my life from the beginning as a young
boy, a young man, and then what happens to me
after that. It's not a very long book. It's like
a hundred and some pages, but it's good. Pick
it up. Great one. Yeah, I have tried to get a
hold of it here. Amazon no longer does sales
here in China. And I don't really have a good
way to get hold of it at the point, but I'm very
interested in reading it. Next time I'm in South
Africa, I will get that done. I swim every day,
Ray. And there was this lifeguard that says,
you're the author of that book. I read your book
this weekend and he speaks English gladly. because
it's in English, it's in Portuguese. And he says
to me, your life was a mess. He goes, are you
okay now? I mean, like it's, it was the saddest
story I've ever read. Yikes, you know, I hope,
I hope that was not the ending, but that's the
way he viewed the book. And I was so delighted
that some guy in Brazil had read my book. It
was kind of cool. Yeah, you know, for me, it's,
it's kind of wild to have the opportunity to
speak to, I never imagined in my life before
that I would have the opportunity to speak to,
uh, just in, in the past couple of months, you
know, the, the chairman of the hate crimes committee
in South Africa published author. the owner of
the first LGBTQ inclusive hostel on the African
continent. These things are completely unfathomable
to me. And it just, for me personally, it shows
that the more you let go of the things that you
were and that you thought you have to be, the
more... I don't know. The more alive you come
to me. And I ask you a question. What's the thing
that you... What's the thing that you love most
about your life now? And for me, it's that. For
me, it's being able to go, hey, yeah, sure. I'll
do that. I can do that. It doesn't matter. I
do not care what other people think. Yeah. Yeah.
And that's... I could not have imagined I'd be
doing this. A year ago, if you'd asked me, I
would have said, yeah, it'd be cool. But I honestly
had no idea of doing this and talking to the
people we've spoken to. Yeah. Which have all
been really, really interesting. That's great.
Ken, I have a question if I may ask. How did
you meet your current partner? Repeat that again.
I'm sorry. What? How did you meet your current
partner? How did I meet my partner? I did it
the old -fashioned way. We were online together
because I was an English teacher. and he was
an English teacher in Brazil. It started off,
he admits to this and says, it started off with
him practicing his English with somebody, because
that's the big deal in Brazil, practice your
English. You can know it, but you have to practice
and practice. So he says, I look forward to talking
to you because I can practice my English. And
I said, well, I kind of look forward to it because
I was kind of romantically falling for you, you
know. And he said, no, not for me, I was learning
more English and more English and more English.
So we did an online chat for like weeks and months.
I don't even know what the title, I don't even
think it's in existence anymore. But it's not
just for English teachers, for gay people. It
was a gay chat line online. Uh, as time went
on, I said, you know, you really do need to come
to the United States and visit. And I didn't
realize how much pressure I put on him to try
to do that. He went through the visa process
and immigration and was rejected once and then
rejected twice. And, um, it wasn't until the
historic decision by the Supreme court that gay
people can get married and it affected the American
government. So we did, um, the fiancee visa approved
and he flew to the United States to be with Nikki.
Wonderful. We get a new life. And that's really
when our life began to bloom and blossom, you
know? Yeah. Good question, Ray. I'm full of them
today. What am I going to be that lucky? What
am I going to find love? Ruby, when's it going
to happen for me? You have to manifest. You have
to manifest that it comes. It's coming. Don't
worry. The ship is sailing. It's just slow. I
feel like the running gag on this show is my
really unsuccessful love life. Two things I think
that will help you. One, travel to Thailand without
a plan. Two, Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah, same. Come
to Brazil. There's like a Brazilian guys in Brazil
or girls Luigi Luigi's. I'm straight. I'm as
straight as an arrow. Okay. Well, there's yeah,
there's many, many beautiful women. Brazil people
really take care of their, their body. Yes. That
is the stereotype, isn't it? Well, I remember
a little story. So one of the things that changes
when you go on hormones potentially is your sexuality.
So I grew up a straight man and married a woman
and I'm still very attracted. I'm bisexual. But
I remember walking to school one day, a couple
of weeks after starting. hormones, um, estrogen
therapy. And a lot of the things in my body had
started changing, but I remember seeing this
Brazilian hunk of a man who is our PE teacher
and my knee's just going weak. And I went, Oh,
that's a problem. Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's,
it's really the capital of baselifts and Botox
and tummy tucks. It's, it's an amazing country.
of the way they maintain their face and their
wrinkles and their body and wow, yeah. And the
beaches are, wow, they don't like to wear too
much on the beach. So Luigi, you just gotta come
and just see the scenery. Come on. Seeing the
scene. I sound like a degenerate pervert who
wants to go to a nude beach. No, you don't. You
sound... a single man who wants to meet someone.
And Luigi, it's all a part of what you're feeding
your mind here. Hello, yeah. How you're viewing
your - Yeah, sure. And wow, I'm taking the psychological
liberty to tell you this, but yeah, it's like
how, you know, if I'm always gonna be single,
you're always gonna be single, but you have to
begin to look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guess Ray and
I, we want, we want you to be, to be successful
and to be in a partnership with somebody that
really appreciate. Thanks. Maybe, Hey, maybe
she's our next podcast guest. Yeah, maybe she's.
Maybe that's how it happened. Who knows? Yeah.
Okay. I want to call all pretty girls. Please
come on to Kaleidoscope. Yes. Sorry, Dewey. I'll
cut that out of the podcast if you want. Let's
try, come on, bring it back. Okay. Bring it back.
I really want to talk about this one thing. Okay.
So let's go back on the topic of we're all liars.
So, you know, there's, so Ken New, a person who
said this, and you could look at it the other
way. in as much as, you know, we all put on a
mask. So we're all kind of performing in our
day -to -day lives. When are we really our true
selves? Maybe when we're alone. But I said, or
I mentioned that, you know, when people are coming
out, there's this idea of like a dichotomy, like
either or, which isn't true. But I wanted to,
I mentioned, you know, using a kind of case study
to provoke another kind of discussion. So I guess
I'll tell you a story or a story I heard. So
it's someone else's story. So this person is
quite religious and they don't, and then for
example, even though I might declare I'm not
religious, they say, no, I believe you are because
of how you are as a person, how you act. Like
you're such a good person and only a good person
can like be religious. And I'm just thinking,
or believe in God, let's say. And I go, well,
I don't. necessarily agree with that, but whatever.
So that's that kind of person. So this person
also shared a story with me about how they knew
a young queer woman and she was very young, a
teenager, and they were gay. But then this person
by association, I guess, somehow brought this
young teenager into the church or it was just
by osmosis. moved them so much religiously that
this young person is no longer gay. They are
straight, by some act of providence. And every
day this same person, this teenager, now an adult,
thanks them every day for what they've done.
Now, my question is, or I guess I just wanna
ask in general, like, can, I personally don't,
I still think that person is queer, but they
are living in a... or a culture where they just
really can't be true to themselves. So you have
this faith can reshape identity. And I mean,
it can force, it can do that, but is it an honest
shaping? Is it authentic? There, I'm using that
word again. Because when I hear the story of
a young queer person was queer, but then they
found the church and now they're straight, I
find that very, very difficult. to believe. Why
would a young person even choose, again, choose
to be queer in the first place? Children, teenagers,
young people, youth, they don't do that. You
know, they're very good at following their desires
and doing what they want. You know, that's why
school's so hard. You know, they gotta do work.
They're effectively selfish. So, spiritual intervention.
Can it alter someone's innate sexuality? Ken's
already shaking his head. I don't believe so.
I don't believe. Yeah, and I don't believe it
either. And I live in a culture in Brazil here
that is so typical. The little town there, Venetians,
my partner, is from called Baja de San Miguel.
We go there a lot. And there are three or four
or five very, very, I'm just going to say very
feminine kind of gay guys that work in the church,
the Catholic church. I just said, I pulled one
apart over and I said, why, why do you work in
such an organization like this, the church? And
they went, you know, everything they said, all
of them said that it's just, of course it all
falls short, but this is where we find satisfaction
and health, but the church hasn't converted them.
And they haven't covered the church at all, but
there's room here in the culture, in the Catholic
Church, for gay people to be involved for something.
You could say, well, aren't they using them?
Aren't they kind of like using their abilities
and talents? Maybe, I don't know. So these are
just queer people in the church. They're still
queer. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. We have
four trans people in this little small town.
There's just room for them. There's no judgment.
But again, you don't talk about it. You don't
express it. You never verbalize it. There's an
exercise queen. I call her the exercise queen.
And she's got like long fingernails. And she's
got huge, big... thighs. She's very athletic.
I said to Bernice, why don't she wear those nails?
And he says, because she's a guy. And he looked
at me like, what? Don't you know that she's a
guy? And I went, wow, I guess I didn't. Wow,
OK. There's so many things that I'm learning
about this culture that's so different than the
way I grew up. I don't think that, you know,
I'm trying to articulate this carefully. When
you say it's not spoken about, I agree. Like
when we ignore something, we don't address it
and we don't like say, hey, you're welcome here.
That's a problem. But when the culture is one
of, it doesn't matter, not to the point of ignoring,
but to the point of where discussion isn't necessary.
as the closest ideal example I can think of Thailand
where the gender is extremely gendered. I mean
the language is extremely gendered to the point
where you can on the fly choose how you interact
with people based on how you sign off on every
sentence that you say. through cup and car. And
so it's not actually spoken about. It doesn't
need to be spoken about. It's known and accepted
and people are treated the way that they want
to be treated. I think there's a society where
it doesn't need to be spoken about. And we have
pride, the pride parade for acceptance. not for
as a lot of misconstruence for conversion. The
Pride Parade is needed because there is exclusion.
Once exclusion stops, the parade will probably
end. Yeah. Brazil has the largest Pride parade
in the world. It's about four million people.
Wow. I want to go. Yeah, you really, it's really
something. I went one Sunday. I mean, it's amazing,
but Brazil has a lot of problems. I don't want
to say they're an accepting culture. I'm just
saying that. And there's a lot of violence, of
course, against trans people here. I'm just saying,
you know, my learning curve is just so far. I
mean, it's just beginning to learn. to sit down
and have lunch with this young woman, who's like
a pillar in our little town, and to realize,
and to have Benises tell me, she's a guy, you
know? And I went, what? I mean, I always - No,
she isn't though. Yeah, all this time in my mind,
I thought, wow, she's got big. Legs, I mean muscular
legs. She's an athlete, you know and in my mind
Wow, she does a lot of exercise and then Yeah
Yeah, it's for me. It's yeah. I have to think
I have to grow and become more more into my yeah,
and also to a large extent Yes, she is working
out. Hey It used to be rather muscular too. And
estrogen, estrogen, the moment you start taking
it, it declares war on muscle mass. You cannot
keep it. Yeah. And so that will probably disappear
over time for her. So, Ken, let me, let me ask
you then. Yeah, I knew Luigi had questions. I
knew Luigi had questions. Bring it on Luigi.
I'm just, okay, let's say you heard this story.
You ran into this young queer girl who said,
I was queer, but now I have been moved by the
church and now I'm straight. What would you tell
them? How would you respond to that? Because
I think you're like me and you think it's not,
I hate to say it's not true, but you know, they're
not being honest with themselves. How would you
approach that? You know, I could just begin to
tell her a little bit about my story and say,
It's very important, no matter how old you are
right now, to begin to think about the path that
you're going. What do you really, really see
in the mirror each morning? Who's that person?
Who are you? And to begin to challenge her or
him about the things that... the path that she's
gone to. You know, there's so many, I'm sorry,
there's so many Mormon guys. I ran into two Mormon
missionaries the other day here on the street
and I went, oh my God. They're a lot here too.
You guys are so gay. You know, I just wanted
to go, wow. You know, you're just so gay. You
know, they're in their white shirts and they
got their little name tag on. And I said, where
are you from? Utah. And we're here for two years,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to go. So
I said, well, I'm gay. I told him right out,
I'm gay. And they went, well, great, God still
loves you, blah, blah, blah, still loves me.
I said, well, thank you. I wanted to keep picking
at them, picking at them, picking at them. Because
they're not living their life. Fully bought into
being Mormon missionaries here in Brazil. And
I want to say, Lord, what do you guys do at night
together? Anyways. There's this unspoken rule
in the trans community when it comes to identifying
that someone is trans. And I think this is actually
quite important is to not say it. Like if I met
this girl who says that she is no longer queer
in whichever way she was because of the church,
I personally would have my reservations on that,
but I'm not going to try and change her. Because
at the end of the day, how she expresses and
what she wants to do is her choice. And that's
the choice that I am fighting for as well. So
I will be supportive. I will tell her my story
and I will hope that she is supportive of me
in the same way. And I will always doubt whether
she is actually, but that is my problem to carry.
Yeah. And Ray? You've said something very important,
very spiritual today. You said, we can't change
anybody. We really can't change anybody. We can
only change ourselves. I can't change her. Who
in the church has the idea that you can try to
change other people? That's insane. It's just
insane. And I did it most of my life. I tried,
I tried and tried, you know? I did it with my...
Pray the gay away. Yeah, I did it with my own
sons. I tried to change them. And I look at my
spouse, and I think, okay, I don't like this.
I want you to do this. And I have to catch myself.
I'm not going to change him. He's got to, like,
want to do that, you know? Yeah. I tell him...
Ruby, that was a great answer. I tell him, yeah.
I tell him Friday and Saturday... culturally,
they drink, and they drink really heavily in
Brazil. And I don't like that. I wish he wouldn't
do that. And I've expressed that. But I'm not
gonna change it. I'm gonna say, hey, my culture
is better than yours. Don't go out drinking Friday,
Saturday, and come in at three in the morning,
four in the morning. I'm not gonna change it.
I like that rate. Ray gets the crown today. She
gets the crown for saying, I'm not going to change
her. I'm going to tell her my story. I'm going
to tell her who I am. I think that's a good idea.
Ken, that's why you became, I think, a writer
for the most part, to tell a story. I think people
respond to stories. Really, that is how you change
people, I think. That's how people learn. They
learn more effectively from stories. as a species,
as human beings. Storytelling is how people bonded,
how villages learned. In Brazil, the Protestant
Church is very conservative, politically and
spiritually very conservative. So for me to blow
somebody's mind is for me to tell a Brazilian.
I was an evangelical person. And they go, you
were? And I said, more than that, I was an evangelical
pastor. And they kind of, they just kind of like,
oh my gosh. Yeah, it just blows up away. And
so one woman, I was out at a party and she says
to me, she says, yeah, but there's a lot of scriptures
about homosexuals. And I went, really? I said,
well, there's a lot of scriptures about feeding
the poor. So, you know, are you going to use
the Bible on me? Don't use the Bible on me, because
it's not going to happen. It's been too much
time reading the Bible and knowing the Bible
inside and out, you know, for somebody to try
to trump me on, you know. The Bible says this
about homosexuals. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it does
it, and did it. Is an even more pertinent question.
Did it say so in the beginning when it was written?
Or does it say so now? Yeah, retconning the Bible.
Yeah, retconning the Bible. Ruby Ray's TED Talk.
On that note, I think we should probably draw
today's podcast into conclusion. Ken, I want
to thank you for coming on to Kaleidoscope. And
if you ever want to have another conversation
with us, you are more than welcome to. You will
always be welcome here. Thank you. Thank you
guys. Both you, Luigi and Ray, thank you. You
guys are delightful people to talk to. Ken, if
our listeners want to find you, they can find
your book on Amazon. It's called The Gospel of
Secrets, A Memoir of Truth. Yeah, liberation,
truth, liberation and love. A Memoir of Truth,
Liberation and Love. Is there any other social
media you would like to point our listeners to?
If I have an email, but I'm not a big yeah, it's
create some 81 at gmail create some 81 Yeah,
the number 81 create some at gmail You can also
reach out to me if you have questions for ken
and I will forward them on to him You can find
luigi Wherever you find kaleidoscope In the ether,
you can find me, Ruby Rae, at firefromheat on
Instagram or on Kaleidoscope at Echo Perspectives
on YouTube. And you can also find my personal
vlog on Ruby Raed on YouTube. Thank you so much
for listening and we will see you again. Ken,
I'm going to end the recording now. I would like
for you just to stay on for a minute or two,
please. That's good.