WEBVTT

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Good evening, listeners, one and all. Welcome

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to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray Liu and

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today I am joined by Kim Litko, South African

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award -winning LGBTQIA plus activist. Chair of

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the Hate Crimes Working Group and founder of

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Same Love Toti, a non -profit organization advocating

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for LGBTQIA plus rights in South Africa. And

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human rights international speaker. I'm super

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honored to have you here, Kim. I'm also joined

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by my co -host, Luigi. Hello. Hello again. We're

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back. We're back. My name is Ruby Ray Liu. I

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am what happens when you are a teacher playing

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Shadowrun on Friday evenings and you discover

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a new hobby for painting tiny figurines. Which

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is something I've watched my friends do and find

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myself being sucked into. Good evening. Ruby,

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is Shadowrun a video game? Shadowrun is a tabletop

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role -playing game. Okay. Okay. Now it makes

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sense. I don't have enough hobbies. I should

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get an interesting hobby like that. Don't worry,

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I'll keep you busy. Bring your figure in next

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time. Yeah, well, I think spacing would be great,

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man. Yeah, maybe not so small though. My glasses

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wouldn't be able to cope, you know? You can get

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the big band around your head with like the magnifying

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glass that you pull over. Yeah, yeah, and the

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flashlight. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It makes you

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look more... What's the word? More knowledgeable

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about your subject. Your weird hobby of painting

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figurines. Like an expertise. Okay. Could be.

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Luigi, do you have a way for us to... Do you

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have an introduction for us today? Yes, my name

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is Luigi and the rule of thumb for this episode

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is there is no rule of thumb. And neither is

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there for painting tiny little figurines. Do

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it however you want. Okay, cool. Exactly, this

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one was done. Good morning, and sorry, go ahead

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Ray. Show us your figurine. I was just on the

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topic of no rules. This was painted with nail

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polish, not the proper paint at all. There you

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go. At least it's gonna last longer than everybody

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else's. I think so. Yeah. And it has a certain

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gloss about it too, that regular pain won't have.

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Yeah. Maybe I started a new trend. There you

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go. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Kim and I'm a mother

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of two very grown boys. So they're men and they've

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married with two kids, now three. So yeah, I

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got three grandsons and very happy. Just had

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my, well, I didn't have it, thank God, but my

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daughter -in -law just had the third grandson.

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So we've had like first Christmases three years

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in a row. So my painting will be on a Christmas

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bauble, you know. First Christmas. So that's

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going to be my painting exercise for the year,

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I think. That's beautiful. I love that. Thank

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you for sharing. I know that you're already very

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busy. I've been trying to get a hold of you to

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speak to you for so long. And to now know that

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you're also a grandmother of three just blows

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my mind. You are a superwoman. Yeah, I think

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all mothers are though, you know, at least to

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their kids. For sure. So on Kaleidoscope, we

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like to start off just to warm things up a little

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bit with... with a quick question for the other

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two participants in the podcast to answer. I

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would like to open the floor to see if either

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of you have a question you would like to start

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with, and then we'll go kind of on the screen,

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just let's say counterclockwise today. Counterclockwise?

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What? Who does that put first? All of our screens

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have a different number. Right now the floor

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is open. Whoever wants to go first. Wait! Kim,

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was that mug just a Santa Claus mug? No, no.

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The rest of my house will be though, very soon.

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We're going to start, especially for the kiddies,

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we're going to start decorating our house until

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it looks like a shopping mall has exploded. My

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mother comes in and she goes, it's too much,

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it's too much. I'm like, well, I don't think

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so. Can't have too much glitter, too much Santa,

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too much presents. But yeah, my family have different

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views. Like my son, he says to me, mom, you can't

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now buy the kids like loads and loads of presents.

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And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, first plan is dashed.

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So. I said to him, okay, no problem. I went out

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and I bought a keyboard and brought it back,

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give it to the kid. And I said, okay, this is

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not a Christmas present. I'm buying him an everyday

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present. So that way I can still buy my presents

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for the kids. You're lucky to have you. That's

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good. Man, I miss, I miss insane like holiday

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Christmasy decoration, whatever. I'll tell you

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both. I, for the first time ever, I've been in

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China for 12 years. And this is, I just yesterday,

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and this is why today I'm a little tired. I was

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up late. I put up a tree for the first time ever

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and decorated it. Yes, thank you. Took a lot

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of courage. You'll see it Ruby next time you

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come over. I got a full blown tree, but now I'm

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a little worried I've opened. Some kind of box

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because I want to get more decorations. I don't

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know. I don't know if it's a good idea I don't

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want my apartment. I would love my apartment

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full of decorations, but also at the same time.

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I Don't know. Maybe it's too much. I need to

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finesse it. Where? Not for me. I mean I Love

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decorations. I hate cleaning them up and my contribution

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to Christmas this year will be Secret Santa gifts

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and teaching my kids the Charleston Swing. Not

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by my kids, I mean my students. We're doing students.

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Jingle Bell Rock, but with the Charleston Swing

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song. Dance. Very nice. I hope you're going to

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post a video of this. Well, because of like child

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protection laws, I can share it individually.

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Yeah, but not online. Well, it sounds very good.

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It sounds lots of fun. That's nice. Yeah, if

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it's good enough, it will go through on the schools

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like public one and then from there I will be

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able to share it. Yeah, beautiful. Well, that's

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lovely. No decorating though, Ruby? No decorations.

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No decorating. No. All right. Not for me. Fair.

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Anyway. Was that your quick fire question? Mine?

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Yeah. Well, I guess it could be. No, actually,

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I saw the mug, and then I just thought Santa

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and Christmas. But now I'm curious, Kim, are

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you a purveyor of mugs like I am? I have many

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novelty mugs. Yes. I love mugs. That's my other

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addiction. Oh, there you go. Kindred's here.

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I've now been banned. My family have told me,

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that's it, Ma, no more coffee mugs. Really? Do

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you have a favorite? This is my favorite. I have

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it all the time. Oh, nice. I'm going with this

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gimmick, but yeah, it is my favorite. Yeah. No,

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I don't. I don't. I just buy sort of, I guess

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it's gimmicky. So maybe Ray, you can look down

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on me. Not at all. Look what I have. That's gimmicky.

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That's the most gimmicky thing anybody can buy.

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Their own name. I can't see it. Yeah. Wait, what?

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Yeah. Yeah, probably. I have a decoration in

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my house that is my own name. That's, it doesn't

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get more gimmicky than that. Okay. Okay. No,

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no. My, my family get mugs. Like if it's Easter,

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they get... Easter mugs. If it's Christmas, they'll

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get Christmas. And of course, mom and dad have

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to get like the best mom or best dad. That's

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great. Yeah. So everybody gets their own sort

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of special ones. My one son, he's a Marvel addict.

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So anything superhero on a mug goes to him. But

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everybody's now mugged out. So yeah, so now we'll

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have to think of something different. I do love

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a good mug. I love buying mug sets, pairs that

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are interesting. Like I have this set from Starbucks

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that has like dopamine and caffeine and serotonin

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on it. And one's black and one's white. Otherwise

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they're the same mug. But I've been banned from

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buying mugs. I'm not allowed to. Now we only

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have four mugs. I never knew this about you.

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Yeah, that's why I love your unicorn mug. Yeah,

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but why didn't you ever tell me you have a bunch

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of novelty mugs? Even when we work together,

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I never saw you have mugs at your desk. Yeah,

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performative minimalism. You're saying I'm performing.

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Let me, okay, on the topic of mugs real quick.

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I've started, whenever I go home, I've started

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getting my mom mugs whenever I see them. So like

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I do a lot of thrifting. Obviously I'll go to

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bookstores and then there'll be a mug. But it

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has to be a really like sac, what's the saccharine?

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Is that the word? Sweet. Like it always, I've

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been getting my mom every mug I see that's like

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best mom, number one mom to a point where it

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just annoys her. Okay, that's sweet. But also

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very cringey. It is, it's great. I'm doing it.

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It's been great. Yeah, well my mom's favorite

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mug is the one I got her for receiving tears.

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You know, it's got a lovely lady on it and 70

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is fabulous or something. Yeah. So she, that's

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her favourite mug. So I'm glad. Shane, they said,

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cause they're busy moving to a retirement village

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now. And they said to me that I'm the only one

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who buys them all of these like sentimental things.

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So yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm a soppy thing

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like that. Yeah. I think it's good too. I'll

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keep buying my mom's mugs even if she gets annoyed.

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The other thing that I collect that is kind of

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strange is odd dictionaries. Like normal dictionaries,

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dictionaries that are very different. Not words.

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In what way? No, they are words. For example,

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there's this really old bookshop in... England

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called Foyle's Bookstore, I think. It's this

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guy, Christopher Foyle, who is a logophile, a

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lover of words, and he has been going through

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the English language for many years in his bookstore,

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and he curated two books called Foyle's Fallavory.

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Fallavory is a collection of strange and wonderful

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words. into these two books. And they're just

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like the most rarely used books in the English

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language. They are gorgeous. And then I have

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the big book of Talking Dirty, which is a collection

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of historical slurs. I'm into it. Yeah, so tell

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us something interesting then in words. What's

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your interesting words? What's the most interesting

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slur in the world, Ruby? You know, I don't remember

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any of them now. I'm drawing a total blank. Well,

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how about this? For an old word for lesbian was

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companion. So if two ladies lived together, nobody

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said that they were, you know, those terrible

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words. It was, this is companion. And everybody

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would be like, their eyes would be, oh, she has

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a companion. Right. That's, that's, uh, is this

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before? or after the star tattoos. Oh lord, no,

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I'm sure it was way before the star tattoos.

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I'm sure it's somewhere around like the twizz

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or something. What do you mean when you say that?

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The star tattoos. What do you guys mean when

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you say the star tattoos? Is there an inside

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joke you don't know about? No, it's not a joke.

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Off you go, Ray. Okay, I might be wrong on the

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history here. The star tattoos come from American

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culture, bar culture, and lesbian women would

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tattoo a little star on the inside of their wrist

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that was easy to cover and it would mark them

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out. I think it's also etymologically where maybe

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gold star lesbians come from and a gold star

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lesbian is someone who has never had relations

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with a man. Learning something new every day.

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I do not know that. Well done. I'm curious if

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that's real fact or just like folk lore. Lesbians

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folk lore. Gold star lesbians are a thing. It's

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a point of pride. But I do think that kind of

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leans into potentially like a, it's a sub category

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of purity culture in a way. It sounds like it,

00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.539
yeah. Yeah. Personally, not totally into it,

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but to each their own, yeah. Yeah. It sounds

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like... Carry on, Kim, you go first. No, no,

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I was just, I was just speculating. I had thought

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maybe it was something to do with, um, like the

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Holocaust, you know, because of the Star of David

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and how, like, the Jews and the gays were all

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like... executed together. So I thought maybe

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that's why the star was a thing. Yeah, yeah,

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yeah. And the pink triangle. Yeah. Yeah. No,

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I think this is just a five -pointed star. It's

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not the star of David. I might be wrong. I'm

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not a lesbian. I'm a bisexual person. Okay. Um,

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.899
now I'm blushing. It sounds like we're about

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to touch on the meteor stuff of this podcast,

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so I'll ask my quick -fire question quickly and

00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:59.100
then we can share our... I'll take us away with

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the first perspective. My question is, what is

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a hobby that you always wanted to try but never

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did? Small figurine making. You never wanted

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to try that. I introduced you to it today. No,

00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:15.029
let me tell you real quick. Actually, actually,

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when I was young, I had a whole bunch of toys,

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like figurines, as most kids do, just garbage,

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because I had a big family, I had a lot of sisters,

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so there was a lot of junk. And there was a time

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when I got the idea from seeing some other artist,

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I guess, of dissecting the figurines and mismatching

00:16:31.389 --> 00:16:33.169
them and putting them all together in different

00:16:33.169 --> 00:16:36.759
ways. So, like, taking... a troll doll's head

00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.460
and putting it on the body of, like, a velociraptor.

00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.200
So I made up those weird art, and it really freaked

00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.860
my mom out. And she... I had a lot. And she all

00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:49.960
threw them all away. Because she thought something...

00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.379
Well, I mean, she was concerned. I guess it had

00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.620
serial killer vibes. But that wasn't the case,

00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:00.240
so... Ever watch Toy Story? Because you're giving

00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:01.980
antagonist vibes. Yeah, it's like, you know,

00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:03.899
Toy Story. Yeah, you're right. But it wasn't

00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.630
that weird. I think... If you saw them, you know,

00:17:06.650 --> 00:17:08.930
they had more artistic merit. They're really

00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:12.930
creative. I really thought about them. Like the

00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:15.509
potato man, the potato man. You're like Mr. Potato

00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:20.250
Head, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, they were

00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:25.470
small. Okay. But, okay, so yeah, I did dabble

00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:27.990
in figurines when I was a child. I gotta say.

00:17:28.430 --> 00:17:31.930
Well, you sound exactly like my brother. He was

00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:35.089
like he was younger than me. So he literally

00:17:35.089 --> 00:17:39.450
broke everything so yeah, your your exploits

00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:45.150
are very sort of Nostalgic for me, I guess Yeah,

00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:50.529
and for me my one my thing is playing the violin

00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:55.940
I love the violin And I don't think it's in many

00:17:55.940 --> 00:18:00.319
songs today, but yeah, because I'm not exactly,

00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.480
I am talking, I guess, about the operatic kind

00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.480
of violin, but then you also get the really jazzy

00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.720
kind of violin that was in songs like Shania

00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.460
Twain had a lot of violins jumping around in

00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:20.799
the back, but you know, jazzy kind of fun violins.

00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:25.470
I'm trying to think of the song now because it

00:18:25.470 --> 00:18:28.509
was a formative song for me from Shania Twain.

00:18:28.750 --> 00:18:30.349
I know exactly the one you're talking about with

00:18:30.349 --> 00:18:32.829
the violin. Where they're playing violin, I think

00:18:32.829 --> 00:18:35.910
in the rain. It's like multiple... Yeah, yeah,

00:18:35.910 --> 00:18:38.049
something like that. So I've always been really

00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:40.710
impressed with people who can play violin and

00:18:40.710 --> 00:18:46.029
I've always thought, well, one day. We possibly

00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:48.710
will do that, but right now we're super busy.

00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:54.809
So that's not going to happen. Instead, I play

00:18:54.809 --> 00:18:59.450
keyboard and guitar. It's enough for me. Very

00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:03.230
cool. Luigi, what were you saying when you think

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.670
of violins? When I think of the violin, there's

00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:09.950
one song. I think it's the violin. It's obviously

00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:13.049
classical music. I think it's called the Dance

00:19:13.049 --> 00:19:15.670
of Death or something like that. Not literally

00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:17.289
English, the Dance of Death. It has some other

00:19:17.289 --> 00:19:22.170
kind of weird name. Is it that one where it's

00:19:22.170 --> 00:19:25.150
the devil, the dancing, the dueling with the

00:19:25.150 --> 00:19:26.910
devil or something? Maybe that's it. And then

00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:31.289
it's got a fiddle that... Yes. Yeah, it's like

00:19:31.289 --> 00:19:35.630
a... You know, like a country song. You know

00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:40.289
that one? It's the dance macabre. That's the

00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:43.069
song. That's the song I think of. Okay. I don't

00:19:43.069 --> 00:19:47.069
know if there's violins in it. Okay. It's got

00:19:47.069 --> 00:19:48.700
it. It's got like a fiddle. That's what I think

00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:51.640
of when I think of violence. Anyway, okay, that's

00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.519
a good answer. Yeah, something you wish you could

00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.880
learn. Yeah. Really? I think once you hear it,

00:19:56.900 --> 00:19:58.619
you'll go, ah, yes, I know what song he's talking

00:19:58.619 --> 00:20:00.700
about. But then you'll say that there are no

00:20:00.700 --> 00:20:02.960
violence. We'll send it to you after. You will

00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:09.759
see. Okay. Yeah, I also play guitar and keyboard.

00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:14.519
I guess it's an electric piano, but not so much

00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.529
anymore. I got busy. I used to watch TV too and

00:20:18.529 --> 00:20:23.289
now it's always just online posting videos and

00:20:23.289 --> 00:20:26.970
looking for people to talk to. And I love it

00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:30.809
way more. I find this extremely fulfilling. And

00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:35.430
that kind of brings me to my perspective today.

00:20:35.809 --> 00:20:41.490
I want to talk about the challenges in life because

00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:45.750
that's so broad. There are things that I've always

00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:51.230
wanted. to do and am doing now, but they're not

00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:57.630
easy. I've said before that I accidentally became

00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:00.890
a teacher. Being a teacher kind of happened to

00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:05.130
me through the course of my life and for a long

00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.890
time I just kind of accepted that. Much in the

00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:11.990
same way that I accepted my assigned gender at

00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:16.559
birth and in many ways Resilience came through

00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.380
from staying alive, staying subscribed to this

00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:23.359
thing that we call life and not electing to unsubscribe.

00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:28.920
But now also all of those skills kind of helped

00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:34.619
me to keep on doing this and not get tired and

00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:38.779
do crazy things like running two jobs. And now

00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:42.359
just last night I posted the first episode of

00:21:42.589 --> 00:21:49.329
a new second podcast. And yeah, I'm cheating

00:21:49.329 --> 00:21:53.109
on you, Louis. You didn't even tell me. It's

00:21:53.109 --> 00:21:56.250
called Freaky Friday with Ray and Bun. It's a

00:21:56.250 --> 00:21:59.809
drive -along. I'll tell you about it. Yeah, you're

00:21:59.809 --> 00:22:03.589
gonna have to. Jeez. So multiple social media

00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:07.190
accounts running all by myself and I... I just

00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:09.690
think that basically what I'm trying to get to

00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:14.210
is the perspective. We often let life hold us

00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:17.410
back because we are afraid to do the things that

00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:21.250
are hard. I feel like we talked about this. It

00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:25.710
seems so familiar. It's universal. Yeah, I guess

00:22:25.710 --> 00:22:33.609
that's why. I agree 110%. It is certainly hard

00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:35.849
to... I was talking about this with someone else

00:22:35.849 --> 00:22:37.990
today, actually. Are we really doing the things

00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:39.910
we really want to do? And if we think we're doing

00:22:39.910 --> 00:22:42.170
the things we really want to do, are those really

00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:44.289
our thoughts? Or is there like, that's the problem

00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:48.549
with ideology. It's the thing, we think we know

00:22:48.549 --> 00:22:51.450
what we're doing, but really there are other

00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:54.250
factors really pushing us or influencing us.

00:22:54.609 --> 00:22:57.049
You know, like the tip of the iceberg and everything

00:22:57.049 --> 00:23:01.509
underneath. So, yeah. I mean, do you mind doing

00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.250
what I want to do? I would say by default, yes.

00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:06.880
But like you, Ruby, I didn't exactly set out

00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.740
to do this. I did, when I was young, I wanted

00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:11.680
to teach in a university setting. And then it

00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.700
transformed into me teaching in an international

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:18.720
school, K to 12 setting. So a lot of that was

00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.960
just because of where I was. And obviously other

00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.140
factors, like making a good wage. Yeah. I lost

00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.279
my train of thought. I had something even more

00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.640
important to say, but I'll leave the floor open

00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.220
to you two. And then when it... comes back in

00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:34.579
my head, I'm going to interrupt. Yeah. Look,

00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:39.200
I think you're right though, Luigi. It is a case

00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.819
of like, you know what, a lot of times we're

00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:45.720
pushed into either through circumstance or through

00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.220
expectations of other people. We're pushed into

00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:53.019
a certain way. And sometimes if it fits for us,

00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:56.579
you know, we don't mind going along. Um, and

00:23:56.579 --> 00:24:01.380
yeah, I think, um, you know, yeah. Yeah, we all

00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.319
make decisions though for ourselves. And I think

00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.339
for myself, at least it's been a case of, yes,

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.940
you know, I spent a lot of time, people pleasing,

00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.000
you know, even without realizing it. But, but

00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.519
definitely, I mean, you want approval from your

00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.940
parents. You want approval from your peers. You

00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:26.019
know what? I mean, I think that as well, that's

00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:32.259
a universal thing. So, um. So yeah, I think that

00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:35.420
if you're finding yourself in a place where,

00:24:35.619 --> 00:24:39.519
you know, you're not sort of happy or what have

00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.500
you, I think you need to then do soul searching

00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:46.759
and find out why exactly because then you'll

00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:49.799
know, you know, and perhaps you'll know more

00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:52.839
of your own self, you know, when you do a bit

00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.019
of soul search and that, yeah, then you'll know

00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:58.809
more of your own self of what. What's going to

00:24:58.809 --> 00:25:03.730
make you happy and what's going to fulfill you

00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:08.890
more than perhaps we are. Kim, you've done some

00:25:08.890 --> 00:25:13.950
pretty incredible things in your life. My question

00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:17.509
is, do you think that now you're doing the things

00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:21.809
that you really want to do? Because for me, I

00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:27.049
feel a sense of responsibility, urgency, need.

00:25:28.850 --> 00:25:34.410
to have this podcast, not only to speak to people,

00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:38.910
but to also normalize my existence to other people

00:25:38.910 --> 00:25:41.930
and not just for me, for others as well. So am

00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:43.890
I doing the things that I really want to do?

00:25:44.069 --> 00:25:47.049
Yes, absolutely. I also feel a calling. My question

00:25:47.049 --> 00:25:51.289
is, is that the same for you? Yes. So very definitely

00:25:51.289 --> 00:25:53.869
that's where I started out. So a little bit of

00:25:53.869 --> 00:25:57.349
history. So I was married to a guy for 17 years,

00:25:57.569 --> 00:26:01.710
had two sons with him, and then we divorced.

00:26:01.769 --> 00:26:04.269
And after the divorce, that's when I started

00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:08.289
dating women. Then when I met somebody who was

00:26:08.289 --> 00:26:12.509
really amazing, who I've now been with for 21

00:26:12.509 --> 00:26:20.400
years. So yeah, so we committed. And yeah, so

00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:25.000
I met this amazing woman and told my parents,

00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:28.579
and bear in mind by now I'm like, I don't know,

00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:32.400
40 or something plus, and I'm telling my parents,

00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.940
and of course they're horrified. Yeah, no. Really?

00:26:36.099 --> 00:26:39.140
So they're like, but you were so normal. Why

00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:41.799
don't you just go back to being normal? And you

00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:44.900
know what? And so, so I struggled with that.

00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:47.500
Okay. And because of the struggle that I had

00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:51.460
with that, I was like, no, come on. I'm an adult.

00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:55.279
What the hell am I doing wanting approval from

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.380
my parents? You know, and then I thought, well,

00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.799
Shane, what about these poor little teenage,

00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:05.410
you know, how they just. don't know anything

00:27:05.410 --> 00:27:09.329
about love, anything about themselves and like

00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:13.230
their parents are just like everything and the

00:27:13.230 --> 00:27:16.930
struggle that they face. So between me and a

00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:19.730
couple of friends, we decided to then start something

00:27:19.730 --> 00:27:23.849
and very much it was a case of, look, we know

00:27:23.849 --> 00:27:28.950
how we feel and we can't imagine how a kid would

00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:32.069
feel, you know, how much worse it would be for

00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:35.519
them. So Yeah, we wanted to be able to give them

00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.359
a safe space. And more importantly, we wanted

00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:41.200
to be able to speak with parents and just help

00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.599
parents go through that shock and that lack of

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.359
information that they have. You know, because

00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.880
as well, I'm like really aware that that World

00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.420
Health Organization only declassified being gay

00:27:56.420 --> 00:28:03.250
as a mental illness in 1990. Okay. So. That's

00:28:03.250 --> 00:28:09.569
kind of really soon ago in our history. Anyone

00:28:09.569 --> 00:28:14.650
born or brought up before 1990 was taught it's

00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:17.450
a mental illness. There's something wrong with

00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:20.329
you. There's something physically wrong. Kids

00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:24.509
are all born heterosexual and cisgender. They're

00:28:24.509 --> 00:28:27.130
all fixing the box of boys and girls. And anything

00:28:27.130 --> 00:28:30.390
other than that is wrong. It needs to be fixed.

00:28:30.650 --> 00:28:35.930
or it's somebody's fault, definitely. So, talk

00:28:35.930 --> 00:28:39.950
that. And so really it's a case of, look, let's

00:28:39.950 --> 00:28:43.230
get more information out there and bring people

00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:48.869
along with extra information and that certainly

00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:52.950
helps. I see you there, Ray, and I'm thinking,

00:28:53.130 --> 00:28:56.609
you know, I know that information is not the...

00:28:56.589 --> 00:29:01.230
only thing that gets rid of transphobia and,

00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.569
you know, barphobia and homophobia. It doesn't.

00:29:06.849 --> 00:29:12.230
Information isn't the pill, as it were. It's

00:29:12.230 --> 00:29:15.450
one stepping stone in helping people come to

00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:19.690
terms with it, you know, if they're open to it.

00:29:19.970 --> 00:29:22.369
Absolutely. I agree with you. And that's one

00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:25.029
of the things that I struggled with in thinking,

00:29:25.029 --> 00:29:30.740
because I I had this kind of awakening and I

00:29:30.740 --> 00:29:34.480
know that sounds to anybody not trans I can sound

00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:38.140
very strange or anybody who hasn't gone through

00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:41.420
this realization that they aren't authentically

00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:46.619
themselves and when I did I had a lot of information

00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:50.579
available to me because I'm quite adept at doing

00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:54.000
things online and existing as a person. Really

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:57.920
the first expression of my femininity was online

00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.740
in the form of an alter ego or at least a pseudonym

00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:04.480
that I had. And that's true for many trans women.

00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:07.000
There's a good reason there are so many trans

00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:14.839
programmers. What I had was information. Carry

00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:23.309
on. I'm so sorry about that. That happened to

00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:26.230
me two podcasts ago, right, Ruby? Yeah, it did.

00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:32.470
Yeah, exactly. With actually, you know her, Shay.

00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:36.930
We had Shay on here. Yeah. And Luigi had to leave

00:30:36.930 --> 00:30:41.470
for like 10 minutes. Just outside my door. Trying

00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:45.490
to fill in a form with a Chinese delivery, man.

00:30:45.490 --> 00:30:50.630
It was fun. My therapist, Luigi, and guest and

00:30:50.630 --> 00:30:54.190
friend of Kaleidoscope is the person who introduced

00:30:54.190 --> 00:30:58.950
me to Kim way back when I was desperately finding

00:30:58.950 --> 00:31:02.829
out about or getting information, which is exactly

00:31:02.829 --> 00:31:06.109
what we're talking about now. And I'll cut my

00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:08.250
story a little bit short. I had information.

00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:12.710
What I wanted was there are also trans personalities

00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:16.569
online that are really great. giving information

00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:19.849
and providing kinship. What I wanted to do is

00:31:19.849 --> 00:31:26.170
show existence with cis people. And I think all

00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:29.029
of it is needed. Everything is needed. It is.

00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:33.910
It is very much so. And I think that also, you

00:31:33.910 --> 00:31:37.130
know what, it brings a depth. So what you're

00:31:37.130 --> 00:31:40.230
doing is different to what they're doing. And

00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:43.900
while it's important, It brings a depth when

00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:48.420
you see different people doing different things,

00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:53.839
you know, and then the public can kind of understand

00:31:53.839 --> 00:32:01.759
that being trans is not a sort of a single -celled

00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.059
thing. You know, all trans people are like this,

00:32:04.779 --> 00:32:05.960
all trans people do that. Right, not one dimensional.

00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.519
You know, it's like, no, there's actual depth

00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.700
here. There's, there's, um, you know, different

00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:16.559
personalities, there's different skill sets,

00:32:16.859 --> 00:32:20.059
there's different everything, just like with

00:32:20.059 --> 00:32:25.819
cisgender people, they're complex, they're multifaceted.

00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:29.109
Transgender people are exactly the same. And

00:32:29.109 --> 00:32:33.269
yeah, it also leans a lot into the work that

00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:37.670
I do as well, is in bringing those together,

00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:42.990
you know? Yeah. How do you think a service like,

00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:47.730
or I guess platform, I'm not sure how to fully

00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:51.609
define Kaleidoscope as we continue to grow. How

00:32:51.609 --> 00:32:55.380
do you think something like us serves? the community

00:32:55.380 --> 00:33:00.460
that we're in and how do we link in and help

00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:04.440
people doing their, like, really hard groundwork,

00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:08.400
like what you're doing, creating laws. How do

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.579
we help? How do we contribute to that? Yeah,

00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:15.279
look. So for myself, because the work that I'm

00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.680
doing is very much activism on a sort of a...

00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.480
Well, I'm not sure if your listeners will...

00:33:22.539 --> 00:33:26.680
will know exactly what I'm doing. So we started

00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:30.059
off as a nonprofit organization providing services

00:33:30.059 --> 00:33:34.039
to LGBT youth and to their parents. So basically

00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:36.279
we were looking at the family unit and trying

00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.180
to keep that together. And then I got to a stage

00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:41.819
where I was like, you know what, I'm so tired

00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:46.180
of putting people together after they've been

00:33:46.180 --> 00:33:50.049
hurt. by homophobia, transphobia, all that. So

00:33:50.049 --> 00:33:54.670
how about we stop it from happening before, before

00:33:54.670 --> 00:33:58.410
it gets to hurt somebody. So that's how Come

00:33:58.410 --> 00:34:02.289
Then Up went more into advocacy. And advocacy

00:34:02.289 --> 00:34:05.710
is where you actually like, for example, I used

00:34:05.710 --> 00:34:08.590
to go to speak at schools, I still can. That

00:34:08.590 --> 00:34:11.289
would be one way is to invite people to come

00:34:11.289 --> 00:34:14.769
and speak. wherever you are, if you're at a school,

00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:17.590
if you're at work, you know, if you're having

00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:20.469
a woman's breakfast or something, you can always

00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.070
have somebody come and speak and share, you know.

00:34:24.349 --> 00:34:26.610
It's about getting the word out there and it's

00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:30.429
also about offering whatever type of support

00:34:30.429 --> 00:34:34.250
you can, whether it be in kind. or whether it

00:34:34.250 --> 00:34:37.670
be financial or whether it be other resources,

00:34:37.849 --> 00:34:41.110
but yeah, it would be about that. I started off

00:34:41.110 --> 00:34:44.309
working in schools and then after that I was

00:34:44.309 --> 00:34:47.289
like, you know what, I'm one person. I can go

00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:52.110
to one school and maybe five, ten and near me,

00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:57.590
but if I go to the Department of Education, the

00:34:57.590 --> 00:35:02.119
National Department of Education, they If I can

00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:06.320
tell them what to do, they can just do a blanket

00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.159
thing over the whole of South Africa and say,

00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:15.420
look, every school has to do this. And so that's

00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:20.420
how my sort of journey in advocacy started. Yeah,

00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.119
we've done that. We've gone to the Department

00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.730
of Education. And when I say we, I mean, I think

00:35:27.730 --> 00:35:30.849
it's important to note that advocacy is never

00:35:30.849 --> 00:35:34.150
a one -person thing. You know, there's so many

00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:39.809
other people involved, whether it's lawyers or

00:35:39.809 --> 00:35:44.010
researchers or just lots of people involved.

00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:50.989
So then you get to actually make changes where

00:35:50.989 --> 00:35:56.300
they count, where the power is to affect that

00:35:56.300 --> 00:36:00.179
change over four more people than you could ever

00:36:00.179 --> 00:36:05.159
hope to meet. So yeah, so that, and yeah, obviously

00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:09.039
then it went a lot further than that. I just

00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.400
want clarification. So Kim, you have, so when

00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:19.239
Ruby told me about you, she said you were an

00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:22.340
advocate and you're fighting against hate speech,

00:36:22.340 --> 00:36:27.190
is that right? Correct, yes. Right. So, it sounds

00:36:27.190 --> 00:36:29.730
like you do a lot of things. And at the beginning,

00:36:30.250 --> 00:36:33.130
when we first started, you introduced yourself,

00:36:33.449 --> 00:36:37.750
and what was the place called? Same love. I'm

00:36:37.750 --> 00:36:38.889
sorry if I'm saying this wrong, because I've

00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:41.170
not said that ever again. Toady? Yeah. Okay,

00:36:41.170 --> 00:36:45.469
so that's your kind of like group or your, I

00:36:45.469 --> 00:36:47.989
don't know, can I say company? What do you call

00:36:47.989 --> 00:36:53.050
it? Yeah, so that's our sort of non -profit organization.

00:36:53.630 --> 00:36:57.389
There you go. I founded that. Yeah. And that

00:36:57.389 --> 00:37:01.530
is what provides, does service provision per

00:37:01.530 --> 00:37:06.050
se. And then from that, I also, we also got together

00:37:06.050 --> 00:37:12.050
an advocacy team to be able to do more, more

00:37:12.050 --> 00:37:16.289
work with, with, with people in power. So basically

00:37:16.289 --> 00:37:19.949
that comes to things like, like we've just had

00:37:19.949 --> 00:37:23.710
the Do you want me to go on and do the G20? Cause

00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:30.250
that's the most recent. Yeah. Okay. So the G20

00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:34.449
is just when 20 different countries get together

00:37:34.449 --> 00:37:38.190
and basically the presidents have a chat and

00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:42.250
decide, okay, these are changes that we can make,

00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.010
policies that we can draw up, laws that we can

00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:48.190
make to make our countries better for the people

00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:53.989
who live there. And yeah, so essentially there's

00:37:53.989 --> 00:37:58.989
also a C20, which is civil society. So now we're

00:37:58.989 --> 00:38:03.530
a nonprofit organization and our nonprofit organization

00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:07.289
has joined a coalition called the Hate Crimes

00:38:07.289 --> 00:38:10.690
Working Group. Now the Hate Crimes Working Group

00:38:10.690 --> 00:38:14.809
specifically advocates it for hate crime legislation

00:38:14.809 --> 00:38:17.489
in South Africa. That as well, that's a whole

00:38:17.489 --> 00:38:20.219
new... Different story, but essentially we got

00:38:20.219 --> 00:38:27.059
it passed in 2024. Oh wow, pretty recent. 23,

00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.400
yeah, 23, I think it was. And, um, and now we're

00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.659
focusing on implementation. And this is where

00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:36.679
now all of this other advocacy comes. Cause now

00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:41.219
the G20, it's G for governments. Okay. Government

00:38:41.219 --> 00:38:44.969
leadership and all that. C20 is for civil society.

00:38:45.369 --> 00:38:48.409
So the civil society gets together and Brazil,

00:38:48.690 --> 00:38:52.150
you had the G20 last year. This year it was South

00:38:52.150 --> 00:38:56.110
Africa, next year it's America. So this year

00:38:56.110 --> 00:39:03.130
we had the G20 and we got the policy pack from

00:39:03.130 --> 00:39:06.809
Brazil. Essentially, it's all the things that

00:39:06.809 --> 00:39:10.650
they thought was great. They give to us now and

00:39:10.650 --> 00:39:14.550
we see if we can improve on it. Okay. And so

00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:18.550
we looked and now in the C20, there's all of

00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:20.389
these different groups. There's a women's group,

00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:23.030
there's a disability group, a business group,

00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:26.409
whatever, whatever, whatever group. And there's

00:39:26.409 --> 00:39:32.340
nothing for LGBT people. Not at all. So we're

00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:35.940
like, well, okay. But then, you know, we went

00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:38.719
into the women's group and looked at their policy

00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.039
to see if we were included in there and we were

00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.280
not. We looked in the education policy. We were

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.079
not included in there. We looked in all of the

00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:53.739
policies. There was not one mention of LGBT people

00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:58.679
anyway. And we were like offended, to put it

00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:04.619
mildly, to put it mildly. So we were quite annoyed.

00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.260
And so we decided, okay, fine. The C20 though,

00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.280
I'll give credit where credit is due. They did

00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:17.639
realize that there was a gap. So they said, no,

00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.599
no, no, no, no. We do want to meet with the LGBT

00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:25.019
community and we do want to hear what they have

00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:28.199
to say. And so we're going to make the guy in

00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:32.099
charge as the Sherpa. And then he has a Sue Sherpa,

00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:35.219
which is like deputy. But they said, no, they're

00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:39.300
going to two Sue Sherpas. And the one has to

00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:43.460
be from the queer community to represent them.

00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.800
So I thought, well, okay, that's, you know, that's

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.980
great. So anyway. Yeah, makes sense. They did

00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:53.519
that, but then we, we still had to go into all

00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:58.480
of the policies. So there were 14, 14 different

00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:05.739
policies. and making sure that LGBT voices and

00:41:05.739 --> 00:41:09.739
let's be honest I mean LGBT people have very

00:41:09.739 --> 00:41:14.659
unique and separate challenges to what other

00:41:14.659 --> 00:41:18.559
people have so we had to make sure that those

00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:22.239
challenges were acknowledged and that there were

00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.539
suggestions on how to solve those problems you

00:41:26.539 --> 00:41:30.360
know so we did that and And I think we did the

00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.079
first draft on all of these policies. Then they

00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:35.920
said, all right, now we're going to do the second

00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.179
draft. And we went and we looked at the policy

00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:41.820
we had already done and, you know, we'd put stuff

00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:44.460
in. Now we were going to take it and do a second

00:41:44.460 --> 00:41:47.960
draft with it. And all of our LGBT stuff had

00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:54.559
been erased, just deleted. I know. We were so

00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:57.820
angry. So we went back into all of these meetings

00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:02.139
and said, No, we need to be in there. And we,

00:42:02.139 --> 00:42:05.179
we argued with everybody and got ourselves put

00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:08.860
back in again. Thank goodness. And then we decided,

00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.880
no, hold on. It's just too easy to just erase

00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:19.980
us. So let's, let's create the Q20, queer 20,

00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:27.059
you know, so that. Okay. Going forward, there

00:42:27.059 --> 00:42:30.500
is a working group that governments have to consult

00:42:30.500 --> 00:42:36.739
with. You see? So we literally made history.

00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:42.460
You can't take it away. And I'm honest, I am

00:42:42.460 --> 00:42:46.699
so proud of the LGBT people that, that, that,

00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:50.280
that, you know, worked, that, that we worked

00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.969
with and worked so hard to get this done. We

00:42:53.969 --> 00:42:57.329
created our own declaration that we submitted

00:42:57.329 --> 00:43:06.150
to the C20 because even the W20 and the Education20,

00:43:06.329 --> 00:43:09.369
they all have to submit their own declarations

00:43:09.369 --> 00:43:15.130
to the C20. And then the C20 takes all of that

00:43:15.130 --> 00:43:23.070
and makes one C20 declaration. So anyway, we

00:43:23.070 --> 00:43:29.010
created this Q20. We created the declaration.

00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:35.530
We launched it at the C20 summit. Yeah. So it's

00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:39.309
been done and going forward, like I said, that's

00:43:39.309 --> 00:43:42.869
the most important thing is going forward. You're

00:43:42.869 --> 00:43:47.190
always going to have to ask the queers. Yeah.

00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:51.639
And this happened. Like just last month? Yeah.

00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.480
Yeah, we've only just finished the G20 now. We've

00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:58.159
only just finished it. Yeah, because after the

00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:02.119
C20, once they make their declaration, which

00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.719
included us, and they listed all of the different

00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:08.719
working groups, and we were there, right at the

00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:15.199
bottom, but we were there. Yeah. Yeah, and then

00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:20.579
they give that to the G20, which is then the

00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:25.139
president of South Africa was given that. And

00:44:25.139 --> 00:44:28.780
at the G20 social summit, that's where we went

00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:33.059
and we gave this to the president. The president

00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:36.460
himself said, thank you very much for making

00:44:36.460 --> 00:44:40.699
this, you know, an inclusive policy and for,

00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.400
you know, all the months you've been working.

00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:48.139
Look, he was speaking to hundreds of us, but

00:44:48.139 --> 00:44:51.980
it was nice anyway. And he even mentioned all

00:44:51.980 --> 00:44:55.539
of these, you know, different groups like the

00:44:55.539 --> 00:45:00.300
D20 and the Q20. And of course all the gays are

00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:04.690
going... Yeah, yeah. You know, the president

00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:09.349
said our name. So, so yeah, so it was, it was

00:45:09.349 --> 00:45:12.630
fun and it was, it was exciting. Yeah. And we're

00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:17.469
just not thinking about next year. Right. When

00:45:17.469 --> 00:45:20.489
it goes to Trump, cause he's already said he

00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:24.170
won't accept our declaration and we're not invited

00:45:24.170 --> 00:45:28.650
to the G20 in America. And why do I, why do I,

00:45:28.750 --> 00:45:30.679
why do I? So he's already done all the... He's

00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:33.800
a whiny baby. Come on. It's not forever. He's

00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:37.619
not forever. No, well, I think that's what people

00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.780
like Trump forget, is that, you know, this is

00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:44.059
not our first time around the block. You know,

00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:48.739
we are used to fighting to exist, you know? Yeah,

00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:53.099
and it's... Yeah, it's... I mean, I understand

00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:55.039
why Trump would say it because he's Trump, but,

00:45:55.059 --> 00:45:58.920
you know, for America to... not have something

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:05.500
like a Q20, I think. It's just... Yeah. It will

00:46:05.500 --> 00:46:08.539
happen. America can't not, because America, I

00:46:08.539 --> 00:46:12.860
think, historically, is always the first to kind

00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:16.199
of, you know, lead the way in things like that.

00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.519
Have you been watching America lately? I mean,

00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:27.460
I have. It's not in a good state. Well, look,

00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:32.659
we'll see however he reacts. So we will respond

00:46:32.659 --> 00:46:37.780
the way we respond. And the thing that we are

00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:41.579
encouraged about is that it is just America.

00:46:42.659 --> 00:46:46.500
Other countries are pretty much over it. They're

00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.039
saying, listen. We're an independent country.

00:46:49.579 --> 00:46:51.920
We're not, you know, we make our own rules for

00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:55.079
our own country and we'll do our own and we want

00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:58.099
to be inclusive. So we're having a lot of countries

00:46:58.099 --> 00:47:03.059
saying that. For example, the UK, the activists

00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:06.460
that we spoke to said, listen, you know, after

00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:11.199
America, the G20 comes to the UK. So whatever

00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:16.000
gets squashed in America will just revive. Yeah.

00:47:16.329 --> 00:47:19.889
You know, it's fine. It's fine. It's part of,

00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:24.190
it's part of just fighting to be alive. But this

00:47:24.190 --> 00:47:27.769
is one of our wins. So we've made history. You

00:47:27.769 --> 00:47:30.269
can't take that away. You can ignore it. You

00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.269
can try and, you know, break it down, whatever

00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:35.650
you're going to do. But at the end of the day,

00:47:36.190 --> 00:47:40.489
the history books have been written. Yep. So,

00:47:40.789 --> 00:47:45.110
okay, just to clarify. Yeah. So Q20, a creation

00:47:45.110 --> 00:47:48.289
of South Africa. We're more specifically your

00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:52.929
group. Very first to do it. Yeah, exactly. The

00:47:52.929 --> 00:48:00.090
very first. I am honored. The only thing is we're

00:48:00.090 --> 00:48:03.110
quite a raggedy bunch. No, we're not like these

00:48:03.110 --> 00:48:07.389
high people. We're just regular people. Yeah.

00:48:08.329 --> 00:48:10.630
Well, I think that's what the world needs to

00:48:10.630 --> 00:48:14.929
see. Examples of that. Just everybody being able

00:48:14.929 --> 00:48:18.449
and capable. not having to come from any particular

00:48:18.449 --> 00:48:21.329
point of privilege to, you know, achieve something

00:48:21.329 --> 00:48:27.469
great that makes the world a better place. Yeah.

00:48:27.849 --> 00:48:31.349
Yeah. And to be honest with you, that is kind

00:48:31.349 --> 00:48:34.789
of my message that I really want to go away with

00:48:34.789 --> 00:48:38.849
is to be saying, listen, you know, I come from

00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:43.170
a sort of a thing of I'm just a housewife. I

00:48:43.170 --> 00:48:47.809
don't have it. degree, um, I'm not a lawyer.

00:48:48.210 --> 00:48:52.250
I'm not, but it's just a case of look, um, I'm

00:48:52.250 --> 00:48:56.090
there and I'm put, you know, you can always learn

00:48:56.090 --> 00:48:59.289
what the laws are. You can always learn how to

00:48:59.289 --> 00:49:02.030
change them. You can always, you know, that's

00:49:02.030 --> 00:49:05.449
the only way I've done it is sort of learning

00:49:05.449 --> 00:49:08.929
on the job and just going from, from strength

00:49:08.929 --> 00:49:11.969
to strength, but you know, being supported by.

00:49:12.250 --> 00:49:15.750
all the other activists and that as well around

00:49:15.750 --> 00:49:20.329
us. So I think just it's a case of what I've

00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:23.869
done, anybody can do it. If you want to do it,

00:49:23.909 --> 00:49:27.429
you can do it, you know? Yes. One foot in front

00:49:27.429 --> 00:49:31.389
of the other and you can do it. Yeah, I think

00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:34.889
the, I think, yeah, I mean, to put it bluntly,

00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:38.849
knowledge is free, more or less. It's only the

00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:41.510
idea that... It isn't, and that stops people

00:49:41.510 --> 00:49:45.789
from even trying to learn because I think in

00:49:45.789 --> 00:49:48.190
the past, at least for me, maybe in my generation

00:49:48.190 --> 00:49:50.570
growing up, it was that you have to go to school,

00:49:50.570 --> 00:49:53.809
for example. You have to pay for knowledge, but

00:49:53.809 --> 00:49:57.710
nothing stops a person from, especially nowadays

00:49:57.710 --> 00:49:59.889
with the internet, let's say, but nothing stops

00:49:59.889 --> 00:50:02.050
a person from going into the library and opening

00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:05.150
a book or talking to people who had the privilege

00:50:05.150 --> 00:50:07.130
of going to education. A friend of mine growing

00:50:07.130 --> 00:50:11.440
up, their family, were very wealthy and just

00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.820
because of the success of that person's father

00:50:13.820 --> 00:50:17.659
who explained to us all he did was when he was

00:50:17.659 --> 00:50:19.980
young he just went to the library and he learned

00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:22.440
and then he you know grew this like incredible

00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.340
business and they were such a really successful

00:50:25.340 --> 00:50:29.880
family again yeah anyone can do it it's just

00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:34.019
a question of knowing the only person that might

00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:38.559
be getting in your ways yourself 100%, you know?

00:50:39.219 --> 00:50:42.139
And I think this does come back to what Ray was

00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:46.019
saying about resilience. You come against these

00:50:46.019 --> 00:50:49.559
things that bring you down, and sometimes one

00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.519
of those things is yourself and your lack of

00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:56.880
confidence, you know? And if you can just put

00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:59.480
yourself in a place of, look, I'm just gonna

00:50:59.480 --> 00:51:02.880
try this, you know, and then just not give up.

00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.739
For example, when we started, Okay. We, we, we'd

00:51:06.739 --> 00:51:08.860
made this decision in my lounge that we were

00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:12.380
going to start this organization. Okay. And,

00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:17.000
and, and, um, and so all we did was put an ad

00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:19.400
in the newspaper that we were going to have the

00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.039
support group and we spoke to the library and

00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:24.239
asked them if we could use one of their rooms.

00:51:24.380 --> 00:51:28.039
And then every month we went to the library and

00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:31.880
we took coffee and tea and muffins and nobody

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:38.429
came. Nobody came. Right, yeah. And the next

00:51:38.429 --> 00:51:41.670
month was the same. So we were giving out our

00:51:41.670 --> 00:51:44.750
muffins to, you know, the homeless people on

00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.869
the street and the security guard. So they liked

00:51:47.869 --> 00:51:51.210
us very much. And my partner even said, what

00:51:51.210 --> 00:51:54.070
are we even doing this for? Like, nobody's coming.

00:51:54.230 --> 00:51:56.289
We must just give it up. People were coming,

00:51:56.449 --> 00:51:58.489
but the security guards were stopping them because

00:51:58.489 --> 00:52:01.230
they wanted the muffins. They wanted the muffins.

00:52:03.150 --> 00:52:06.610
Yeah, they were beating off the gays. Go! It's

00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:10.329
our mother! Nobody ever knew, eh? Yeah, no, but,

00:52:10.329 --> 00:52:14.230
um, so we just continued. And eventually people

00:52:14.230 --> 00:52:17.150
started dribbling in, you know, little bit by

00:52:17.150 --> 00:52:20.050
little bit. And we grew from strength to strength.

00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:24.230
So yeah, it's a case of, yeah, it is a kind of,

00:52:24.230 --> 00:52:28.699
it is a tough road to go. But you learn on the

00:52:28.699 --> 00:52:32.199
way. I mean, you know, and there's so many more

00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:36.780
people more qualified than you, but they might

00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:39.320
be more qualified, but they also either don't

00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:43.539
have the time or that's not their focus for their

00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:47.000
life or what have you. You're, you're filling

00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:51.019
a gap that other people are not. So yeah, it's

00:52:51.019 --> 00:52:53.280
a case of just going, even though you don't have

00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:57.230
the confidence. or the skills, just do it anyway.

00:52:58.329 --> 00:53:03.030
It's like my dating life. Just do it. Ruby, we've

00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:04.489
mentioned something like this before, haven't

00:53:04.489 --> 00:53:06.349
we? It sounds so familiar. We've talked about

00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:11.050
this. Remind me. Just do the things that you

00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:15.170
want to do. Definitely. It's a topic that often

00:53:15.170 --> 00:53:18.699
permeates the conversations I'm in. But I don't

00:53:18.699 --> 00:53:21.360
remember anything particular right now. Yeah

00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.179
It's something that I've told my kids because

00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:26.539
they're like well, they're like everybody else

00:53:26.539 --> 00:53:29.860
You know, I mean everybody has some something

00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:32.519
they don't like about the world around them You

00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.860
know, this life's fair whatever whatever but

00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:41.059
then change it Change it. I could change it and

00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:47.480
that takes hard work and and Yeah, so But it

00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:53.059
is at least something you can do. Right. And

00:53:53.059 --> 00:53:56.159
I think also the thing is also don't be too comfortable.

00:53:56.539 --> 00:53:59.079
Don't be too comfortable. Don't take things for

00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:03.480
granted. Yeah, always good advice. Definitely.

00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:08.679
Yeah. Yeah, for example, yeah. Go ahead. No,

00:54:09.539 --> 00:54:12.179
in South Africa, we've had a marriage equality

00:54:12.179 --> 00:54:17.489
since 2006. Okay. Thank you to the lesbians.

00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:26.050
Thank you lesbians. That's a funny story. The

00:54:26.050 --> 00:54:29.449
lesbian, there was a lesbian couple and they

00:54:29.449 --> 00:54:31.869
wanted to adopt these kids. They weren't allowed.

00:54:32.269 --> 00:54:34.329
And so they said, no, no, no, no, they're going

00:54:34.329 --> 00:54:38.010
to go to court first to adopt the kids and worry

00:54:38.010 --> 00:54:40.630
about getting married later. So we were, and

00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:43.579
lesbians were, and gay. gay couples were allowed

00:54:43.579 --> 00:54:48.199
to adopt kids from 2005. Really? Yeah, they were

00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:50.619
allowed to adopt kids first before they got married.

00:54:51.739 --> 00:54:56.260
Then, in 2006, we were allowed to get married,

00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.219
actually get married. It was probably happening,

00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:01.980
and the government was thinking, we look really

00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:06.400
silly. Yeah, yeah. So we've had that, and you

00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.179
know what, we could be really comfortable and

00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:12.480
say, yeah, that's great, but... Guess where I

00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.719
was yesterday. Guess where I was. I was sitting

00:55:16.719 --> 00:55:20.079
in front of parliament online like this though.

00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:24.440
Okay. And they're looking at the marriage bill

00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:28.820
and at the moment South Africa has three marriage

00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:33.500
laws, one for heterosexuals, one civil union

00:55:33.500 --> 00:55:37.380
for same -sex couples and then one for traditional

00:55:37.380 --> 00:55:42.329
and religious marriages. And they all have different

00:55:42.329 --> 00:55:51.469
rules and what not. So they've decided, okay,

00:55:51.530 --> 00:55:53.650
now they're going to have one law, but first

00:55:53.650 --> 00:55:56.949
they have to have a public hearing, you see,

00:55:57.190 --> 00:56:00.389
and see what the public think. Well, of course,

00:56:00.710 --> 00:56:04.300
so all of the religious nuts are out there. We

00:56:04.300 --> 00:56:08.079
can't have the gays getting married. So yeah,

00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:11.320
we're responsible apparently for a lot of things.

00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.199
Like there's a 5 % drop in marriages across the

00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.800
world. Clearly, it's because the gays have been

00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:19.880
allowed to get married. That has nothing to do

00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:26.840
with the economy. No, not at all. So, okay, jokes

00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:31.679
aside. Jokes aside. There are real people that

00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.579
are well funded and well connected and are very

00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:41.139
keen to get rid of the rights of LGBT community

00:56:41.139 --> 00:56:46.420
in general. So it is so important for us to be

00:56:46.420 --> 00:56:50.099
in those spaces where we say, okay, we've got

00:56:50.099 --> 00:56:54.940
this law and this new law that they are speaking

00:56:54.940 --> 00:56:59.139
about introducing is inclusive. of everybody,

00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:04.340
it's really good, you know? But unless we have

00:57:04.340 --> 00:57:06.980
people standing up and saying, no, this is a

00:57:06.980 --> 00:57:11.579
good law, then all the government is going to

00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:14.739
hear is how terrible the law is, how we can't

00:57:14.739 --> 00:57:16.840
have gays getting married, how we can't have

00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:18.019
this, how we can't have that. Yeah, that's a

00:57:18.019 --> 00:57:21.599
really good point. So yeah, so although we've

00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:26.219
had marriage equality for like 20 years, you

00:57:26.219 --> 00:57:29.039
know, we can't ever take that for granted. So

00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:32.079
yeah, so that's, that's what we've been doing

00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:34.760
as well. Yeah. You make a really good point.

00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:38.519
It does need to be simplified. Like, when I actually

00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:41.519
was aware of the fact that you were in parliament,

00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:45.639
because I was speaking to another person who

00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:51.400
was also in parliament. Who? Leanne. Oh, Leanne!

00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:55.320
Oh, she's, she's... She's one of my favorite

00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:58.659
people. She's amazing. I had the privilege of

00:57:58.659 --> 00:58:03.139
meeting her when I was in South Africa and I'd

00:58:03.139 --> 00:58:07.099
like to think that we've become somewhat friendly

00:58:07.099 --> 00:58:12.500
and I asked for her help because I'm not able

00:58:12.500 --> 00:58:17.820
to get a hold of DHA to find out if my changes

00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:20.519
have been affected and if I can apply for a new

00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.659
birth certificate and what my new ID number is.

00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:28.840
Um, because I'm in China and I tried to call,

00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.699
I was on hold for 12 minutes and I got a 300

00:58:32.699 --> 00:58:38.440
Rand bill. Uh, that's 150 RMB for Luigi and it's

00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:45.059
about $30, $40 for Americans for being on hold.

00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:48.739
No, less than that. Not even. Oh, sorry. $15.

00:58:49.059 --> 00:58:52.400
$15. Yeah. Yeah. Not that much for an American,

00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.829
but still. Yeah. So anyway, I was like, Leanne,

00:58:55.889 --> 00:58:58.769
please help me. Please, please can you check?

00:58:58.829 --> 00:59:01.429
And she said, I will, but on Thursday because

00:59:01.429 --> 00:59:09.210
I'm in parliament now. That girl is everywhere

00:59:09.210 --> 00:59:12.630
and she knows everything and she's got the skinner

00:59:12.630 --> 00:59:16.010
down on everybody. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

00:59:16.769 --> 00:59:20.429
She's on fire. Like I'm scared of her. She's

00:59:20.429 --> 00:59:24.139
supposed to be reckoned with for sure. She is

00:59:24.139 --> 00:59:27.360
she is and yet she's got a heart of gold. Hey,

00:59:27.500 --> 00:59:31.500
she really has I mean and an Integrity like you

00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:35.340
won't believe such integrity. I've got so much

00:59:35.340 --> 00:59:40.019
time for her Honestly, and she said such a good

00:59:40.019 --> 00:59:44.139
advocate for trans and gender rights Yeah, absolutely

00:59:44.139 --> 00:59:46.239
Luigi. Hopefully you get a chance to meet her

00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:50.170
as well As I make the rounds in South Africa.

00:59:50.349 --> 00:59:52.670
I like it. Sorry, what was that? He said, I like

00:59:52.670 --> 00:59:55.829
doing the circuit. It's great. Yeah, it's a lot

00:59:55.829 --> 00:59:59.170
of fun. We had a lovely conversation with a man,

00:59:59.530 --> 01:00:04.630
Chase King in Cape Town, who started a different

01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:07.570
sphere. But again, within that context of we

01:00:07.570 --> 01:00:13.969
need everything. Yeah. He started this expressly

01:00:13.969 --> 01:00:17.630
LGBTQIA plus inclusive hostel in Cape Town called

01:00:17.630 --> 01:00:21.690
SoulFam Hostel. Wonderful. That is so needed.

01:00:22.809 --> 01:00:27.530
Yeah. Exactly. Because a lot of hostels are diverse,

01:00:27.530 --> 01:00:31.030
but they're not inclusive. And this one is, I

01:00:31.030 --> 01:00:33.070
had the privilege of staying there when I was

01:00:33.070 --> 01:00:36.530
in Cape Town. So dear listeners, if you are traveling

01:00:36.530 --> 01:00:41.800
to South Africa, please do go to Cape Town. That's

01:00:41.800 --> 01:00:46.239
also where really the Cape Town mafia is, isn't

01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:50.199
it? They're the number one antagonists to our

01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:54.059
rights in the country. Okay, who exactly are

01:00:54.059 --> 01:00:58.219
you talking about? I'm not exactly sure. I'm

01:00:58.219 --> 01:01:02.179
speaking from rumor here. Theorically, I have

01:01:02.179 --> 01:01:05.079
heard of the Cape Town mafia, quote unquote,

01:01:06.219 --> 01:01:09.849
a conservative think tank. that is hell bent

01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:14.469
on demolishing trans and or LGBT rights in South

01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:16.829
Africa. Well, we've seen it very much when it

01:01:16.829 --> 01:01:20.429
comes to education. The education side, we got,

01:01:20.570 --> 01:01:24.949
like I told you, we were trying to get the national

01:01:24.949 --> 01:01:28.190
department of education to do something. So what

01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:31.630
they did do, because to be honest, they're on

01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:37.989
the sides of LGBT people because in South Africa,

01:01:38.219 --> 01:01:42.179
We have the laws that say you're not allowed

01:01:42.179 --> 01:01:44.719
to discriminate. And then kids go to school and

01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:47.260
then they get either bullied or discriminated

01:01:47.260 --> 01:01:50.340
against by the teachers. So then the Department

01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.199
of Education gets sued. And the Department of

01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:56.480
Education comes to it every time because it's

01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.659
clear the child's been discriminated against

01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:00.840
and so therefore they have to pay the fines.

01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:03.920
And so they're not happy about that, obviously.

01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:07.820
So yes, they're wanting. things like SOGIE AC

01:02:07.820 --> 01:02:11.360
education and schools. So we worked together

01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:16.159
for about two years on a sort of a, what's the

01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:20.739
word I'm looking for? But like a book on SOGIE

01:02:20.739 --> 01:02:25.139
AC issues for schools. And it was done. It was

01:02:25.139 --> 01:02:27.960
passed. The heads of department had all passed

01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.869
it, everything. They went to every province,

01:02:31.130 --> 01:02:33.489
the Department of Education went to every province

01:02:33.489 --> 01:02:37.210
and did training on it. And once everything was

01:02:37.210 --> 01:02:39.610
done, they were just about to put it into place

01:02:39.610 --> 01:02:44.010
when, as you say, the Cape Town mafia came into

01:02:44.010 --> 01:02:48.590
place and said, no, they feel that they don't

01:02:48.590 --> 01:02:51.630
feel like we've had enough. What was it? Consultation.

01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:54.860
There wasn't enough consultation, so they didn't

01:02:54.860 --> 01:02:58.079
want it. And we, me and Leanne, and a number

01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.619
of people jumped up and down and lost our minds

01:03:00.619 --> 01:03:04.539
a little bit and said, how can one province hold

01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:09.300
the rest of us to ransom? If we are a democracy,

01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:14.579
surely the other, I think we have nine provinces.

01:03:15.659 --> 01:03:21.079
Geez, I should know this. Nine provinces. I think

01:03:21.079 --> 01:03:29.000
we have nine provinces. And we do. And only one

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:35.380
said no. And so now it's been put back in the

01:03:35.380 --> 01:03:39.039
box and everybody's quiet about it. So we're

01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:43.699
still trying to get that out again. But yeah,

01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:47.840
at the moment it's a uphill battle. But it's

01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:52.440
there, it's created, it's done. We just need

01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:56.800
to get it into the hands of the schools. But

01:03:56.800 --> 01:04:02.059
yes, so we have somebody in Cape Town just causing

01:04:02.059 --> 01:04:09.480
nonsense. Yes. And, well, let's not name names

01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:13.099
today because I do feel there are certain public

01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:16.889
figures around the world that... are the loudest

01:04:16.889 --> 01:04:20.949
voices and they should really just... Sometimes

01:04:20.949 --> 01:04:24.929
just hush. Well, unfortunately, if you tell a

01:04:24.929 --> 01:04:28.690
lie often enough, it sounds true. I won't say

01:04:28.690 --> 01:04:30.989
it becomes true because it never becomes true,

01:04:31.190 --> 01:04:34.809
but people begin to believe it. So, this is why

01:04:34.809 --> 01:04:38.710
as well, it is so important for us to just speak

01:04:38.710 --> 01:04:42.130
out so that you don't only hear these negative

01:04:42.130 --> 01:04:45.599
voices. It's important... us to speak and it

01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.179
doesn't mean you have to know everything. Even

01:04:48.179 --> 01:04:51.179
if you don't know anything, then just, just speak

01:04:51.179 --> 01:04:54.300
out anyway, you know, even if it's just from

01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:58.340
your heart and it, you must just speak out. One

01:04:58.340 --> 01:05:00.820
of the reasons I'm hesitant to name the people

01:05:00.820 --> 01:05:04.860
that I know are loud voices is because naming

01:05:04.860 --> 01:05:07.519
them platforms them. It gives them, it makes

01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:11.320
other people go there and it makes the algorithm

01:05:11.659 --> 01:05:15.880
push their names higher into societal sphere

01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:20.340
of knowledge. And I just think that for the most

01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:23.179
part, they should be entirely ignored, mentioned

01:05:23.179 --> 01:05:32.940
in passing. Right. Yes, I agree. Um, yeah, I

01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:35.300
do agree on that. Luigi, what's your perspective

01:05:35.300 --> 01:05:37.960
for tonight or question that you want to delve

01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:43.210
into? Yeah, I want to I want to delve into Well,

01:05:43.530 --> 01:05:47.889
let's talk about hate speech because I'm curious

01:05:47.889 --> 01:05:51.170
curious what Kim can teach us about it and how

01:05:51.170 --> 01:05:58.710
it well like operates in what she does because

01:05:58.710 --> 01:06:01.789
Yeah, how does how does hate speech manifest

01:06:01.789 --> 01:06:08.659
in antagonizing your your I won't say journey,

01:06:08.940 --> 01:06:12.340
but, you know, your goal and what you want to

01:06:12.340 --> 01:06:15.000
set out to do. Because when I think of hate speech,

01:06:15.099 --> 01:06:19.079
I think of just, like, outright vitriolic language

01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.019
to people that's, like, violent and aggressive.

01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:26.500
But I think maybe it's more finessed. And I'm

01:06:26.500 --> 01:06:28.659
just wondering, Kim, if you can define it for

01:06:28.659 --> 01:06:33.659
us or tell us, like, how do we know it? How do

01:06:33.659 --> 01:06:37.880
we recognize it? How do we stop it? Yeah. So

01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:40.679
that was one of the things that we did is we

01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:44.539
actually wrote the hate crime legislation that

01:06:44.539 --> 01:06:48.039
we advocated for. And so in that legislation,

01:06:48.380 --> 01:06:53.019
we were then, you have to actually define what

01:06:53.019 --> 01:06:58.420
constitutes hate speech. So the way we defined

01:06:58.420 --> 01:07:03.320
it was that it had to be hateful towards a group.

01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:08.039
All right. So not, I could say. I hate Joe Soap,

01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:12.219
but I can't say I hate Joe Soap because he's

01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:14.800
gay, you know, and all gays are rubbish and what

01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:19.260
have you. So that, that, that, but then also

01:07:19.260 --> 01:07:23.119
to go even further and say it must be against

01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:27.960
a group and it must create harm or incite harm

01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:31.860
and encourage other people to, to be harmful

01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:35.000
towards. towards a particular group. So that's

01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:37.760
how we've defined it. So what I've found is that

01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:41.059
a lot of people still come to us and say, you

01:07:41.059 --> 01:07:44.159
know, this and this happened and this is hate

01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:48.099
speech and, you know, we must sort of get them

01:07:48.099 --> 01:07:51.079
kind of thing. Yeah, many, many times we have

01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:54.500
to say, just calm down. That actually doesn't,

01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:59.050
uh, legally, no, it doesn't. meet that standard,

01:07:59.389 --> 01:08:03.090
it might be hateful, it might be offensive, it

01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:07.530
might be hurtful, it might be whatever, it might

01:08:07.530 --> 01:08:13.010
be horrible, you know, but it has to be raised

01:08:13.010 --> 01:08:19.869
to the sort of height of being a crime as well.

01:08:21.270 --> 01:08:26.189
So officially for us, it has to also do that.

01:08:26.409 --> 01:08:30.510
I can give an example. For example, may I try?

01:08:31.750 --> 01:08:37.909
Yeah. If I were to say group X are all stupid

01:08:37.909 --> 01:08:42.170
and they don't know what they're doing as a demographic

01:08:42.170 --> 01:08:46.369
of an entire country or society, that technically

01:08:46.369 --> 01:08:50.170
isn't hate speech. But if I said group X should

01:08:50.170 --> 01:08:54.689
be banned from society and beaten whenever possible,

01:08:54.949 --> 01:09:00.260
that would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:04.720
So that is pretty much it. We've just had an

01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:07.640
example that we're working with now. So let's

01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:11.800
do what you say. Let's not give more airtime

01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:15.899
to the actual need. But this person said that

01:09:15.899 --> 01:09:19.399
gays were to be killed and then they have a fairly

01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:23.930
big following. So their followers online... were

01:09:23.930 --> 01:09:26.369
like, yeah, we got the guns, we got everything,

01:09:26.569 --> 01:09:30.850
come on, let's go. He then took a mob, literally,

01:09:31.369 --> 01:09:35.970
from Durban to Joburg, where he tried to get

01:09:35.970 --> 01:09:40.390
the gays over there. And yeah, the police were

01:09:40.390 --> 01:09:43.069
called in and what, what, what. Then he came

01:09:43.069 --> 01:09:47.060
back to Durban and continued with saying all

01:09:47.060 --> 01:09:49.399
these horrible things that he was saying, and

01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:52.779
literally it had a negative effect on LGBT people

01:09:52.779 --> 01:09:56.100
here. People were thrown off public transport.

01:09:58.439 --> 01:10:02.699
A transgender woman was stabbed because this

01:10:02.699 --> 01:10:07.260
person's, yeah, the perpetrator was like, no,

01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:11.069
you're not allowed to be here. He even went on

01:10:11.069 --> 01:10:14.510
to stab the family because the family was allowing

01:10:14.510 --> 01:10:20.430
their transgender child to stay at their house.

01:10:22.750 --> 01:10:26.130
So it really went into a thing. So we've actually

01:10:26.130 --> 01:10:30.670
now taken him to court, the quality court on

01:10:30.670 --> 01:10:32.689
this whole thing and recharging him with hate

01:10:32.689 --> 01:10:40.189
speech. And yeah, he really is a sort of perfect

01:10:40.189 --> 01:10:44.710
case if you want to describe hate speech because

01:10:44.710 --> 01:10:49.270
This is the hate speech results in violence hate

01:10:49.270 --> 01:10:53.949
speech results in her and yes So yeah, and then

01:10:53.949 --> 01:10:56.229
to go on your next thing because you said and

01:10:56.229 --> 01:11:00.409
how do we stop that? Well, first of all prevention

01:11:00.409 --> 01:11:04.649
is a different thing altogether Because now prevention

01:11:04.649 --> 01:11:08.489
means that now we're looking at ways to stop

01:11:08.489 --> 01:11:13.930
the behavior, you know? So legislation is one

01:11:13.930 --> 01:11:16.869
of the first ways you can do it, because without

01:11:16.869 --> 01:11:20.390
legislation, how are you going to know? I mean,

01:11:20.449 --> 01:11:24.710
we all know technically, but when it comes down

01:11:24.710 --> 01:11:28.050
to research and that there's no, like currently,

01:11:28.449 --> 01:11:34.890
there's no data, and you can't collect data because

01:11:34.890 --> 01:11:38.479
it's not documented. Whereas now that we have

01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:44.079
hate speech and hate crime as a law, now it can

01:11:44.079 --> 01:11:48.279
be documented. Now we can say, all right, there's

01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:52.479
a hundred cases of hate speech. And why was there

01:11:52.479 --> 01:11:55.619
this? It was there because of maybe it was a

01:11:55.619 --> 01:12:00.119
religious group or something. So then we would

01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:05.109
go to churches and try and educate them. get

01:12:05.109 --> 01:12:08.649
them on board, you know, to at least say the

01:12:08.649 --> 01:12:11.250
simplest thing like, please don't kill gay people.

01:12:12.010 --> 01:12:14.789
Right. You would think that churches would want

01:12:14.789 --> 01:12:20.069
to say, please don't kill people. Yeah. Yeah.

01:12:20.529 --> 01:12:25.350
So, but anyway, yeah. And then in schools, it's

01:12:25.350 --> 01:12:29.850
easier to teach in schools to say, listen, guys,

01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:32.850
if you don't want to end up in jail, you know.

01:12:33.079 --> 01:12:35.779
Don't break the law. And this is one of the laws

01:12:35.779 --> 01:12:40.399
you're not allowed to break. So prevention comes

01:12:40.399 --> 01:12:46.180
down to education and just awareness. One of

01:12:46.180 --> 01:12:49.399
the things I like to ask politicians is to do

01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:51.680
things like, you know, like we did with AIDS.

01:12:51.859 --> 01:12:57.000
With AIDS, we put posters everywhere. There were

01:12:57.000 --> 01:13:01.670
billboards on the freeway. Adverts on the TV,

01:13:01.829 --> 01:13:04.550
all these public announcements, public service

01:13:04.550 --> 01:13:08.430
announcements were just plastered everywhere

01:13:08.430 --> 01:13:12.510
you can think of. And that's what we need to

01:13:12.510 --> 01:13:17.630
do with LGBT rights as well. We need to be saying,

01:13:17.750 --> 01:13:21.149
listen, gays are allowed to get married. So don't

01:13:21.149 --> 01:13:24.510
complain if you see them get dating, you know?

01:13:26.369 --> 01:13:28.189
Transgender people are allowed to transition.

01:13:29.340 --> 01:13:32.119
Don't complain if you see a transgender person.

01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:36.199
There's a high chance that what you think is

01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:38.659
a transgender person isn't actually a transgender

01:13:38.659 --> 01:13:45.520
person. Exactly. Exactly. Stop stereotyping people.

01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:49.560
Yeah. That's another one. I mean, there's so

01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:52.760
many we could put out there. This is why we need

01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:57.819
flags. Yeah. I do believe it would help, you

01:13:57.819 --> 01:14:01.229
know, but... But yeah, it won't always because

01:14:01.229 --> 01:14:03.989
if a person is hateful and they're just looking

01:14:03.989 --> 01:14:08.689
for a reason to hate, hate is gonna hate. It's

01:14:08.689 --> 01:14:12.109
just the way it is. True, truer words. But I

01:14:12.109 --> 01:14:15.430
suppose, you know, it sounds like the law is

01:14:15.430 --> 01:14:18.350
pretty good in protecting the people. I mean,

01:14:18.550 --> 01:14:22.810
the laws are set up and all that, you know, all

01:14:22.810 --> 01:14:25.350
that can happen is that people become aware of

01:14:25.350 --> 01:14:28.689
these laws and maybe that will... incentivize

01:14:28.689 --> 01:14:33.090
them from doing anything really bad, as opposed

01:14:33.090 --> 01:14:35.510
to a place where there aren't any laws made.

01:14:35.909 --> 01:14:38.229
So can you stop that? South Africa has a really

01:14:38.229 --> 01:14:42.449
incredible constitution. Sorry, you carry on.

01:14:43.869 --> 01:14:46.130
Okay. I was just going to say South Africa has

01:14:46.130 --> 01:14:48.489
an incredible constitution and a lot of really

01:14:48.489 --> 01:14:53.149
good laws. The part where we struggle is application.

01:14:53.189 --> 01:14:57.210
Well, yeah, I guess so. But to me, that just

01:14:57.210 --> 01:14:59.170
doesn't, it's a paradox to me. It doesn't make

01:14:59.170 --> 01:15:02.229
sense because you have all these laws, really

01:15:02.229 --> 01:15:05.810
good laws, but the applications. So why? Why

01:15:05.810 --> 01:15:07.670
is that? It's governmental incompetence. It's

01:15:07.670 --> 01:15:10.770
because of the homophobia. Yeah. Sorry, Kim.

01:15:11.050 --> 01:15:15.470
I think that we struggle with application because

01:15:15.470 --> 01:15:18.449
of corruption and incompetence. That's all. Once

01:15:18.449 --> 01:15:21.430
those problems are solved, almost all of South

01:15:21.430 --> 01:15:25.250
Africa's problems disappear. Yeah. Yeah. No,

01:15:25.250 --> 01:15:29.289
but I also think it is homophobia and transphobia

01:15:29.289 --> 01:15:33.909
and that because we can go and educate people.

01:15:34.430 --> 01:15:38.989
Like, for example, we went and did a sensitization

01:15:38.989 --> 01:15:43.029
on this one police station that was known for

01:15:43.029 --> 01:15:48.220
being homophobic. Wow. The thing is not only

01:15:48.220 --> 01:15:52.840
did we give them sensitization. All right. There's

01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:57.460
also a protocol that all police and all police

01:15:57.460 --> 01:16:00.899
stations are supposed to follow. It's called

01:16:00.899 --> 01:16:04.319
the standard operating procedures. Okay. Right.

01:16:04.659 --> 01:16:08.340
And they have special standard operating procedures

01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:13.550
for LGBT people. And that's not even coming from

01:16:13.550 --> 01:16:19.750
an activist. That is, the police themselves have

01:16:19.750 --> 01:16:22.970
standard operating procedures. The problem is

01:16:22.970 --> 01:16:25.750
police on the ground either don't know they're

01:16:25.750 --> 01:16:28.189
there or they don't care that they're there.

01:16:28.710 --> 01:16:32.130
But that certainly was the case where we found,

01:16:32.409 --> 01:16:35.729
we went there, we did what's his name with them.

01:16:36.109 --> 01:16:40.020
So we had... trained them essentially and then

01:16:40.020 --> 01:16:44.159
it was about I think six months to a year later

01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:49.000
we had a case of someone going there and being

01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:53.899
treated horribly quite humiliating you know and

01:16:53.899 --> 01:16:56.880
it turned out then they didn't want to open a

01:16:56.880 --> 01:17:00.439
case at all and they walked out and thank goodness

01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:04.149
they phoned me and they told me darn, darn, you

01:17:04.149 --> 01:17:07.250
know, police station. They won't open my case.

01:17:07.329 --> 01:17:09.569
These are the terrible things they've said to

01:17:09.569 --> 01:17:13.149
me. And I was like, just wait there. And I got

01:17:13.149 --> 01:17:18.229
in my car, drove over there. And yeah, I just

01:17:18.229 --> 01:17:21.130
walked in and said, okay, can I speak to your

01:17:21.130 --> 01:17:24.569
station commander? And then you see all of the

01:17:24.569 --> 01:17:28.210
police like, pardon? Why, why, why do you want

01:17:28.210 --> 01:17:31.960
to speak to them? And then, yeah. And then once

01:17:31.960 --> 01:17:35.359
I started talking, because obviously I didn't

01:17:35.359 --> 01:17:39.359
go there as little old me. I went there as like,

01:17:39.399 --> 01:17:42.119
I'm the chair of the hate crimes working group.

01:17:42.659 --> 01:17:46.260
We document hate crimes. We believe we have a

01:17:46.260 --> 01:17:48.560
victim here that's trying to open a case and

01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:51.079
like, what is the problem? You know? And then

01:17:51.079 --> 01:17:54.090
they're like, ah, but, but. We didn't know. And

01:17:54.090 --> 01:17:56.829
I'm like, okay, so here's the poster that you

01:17:56.829 --> 01:17:59.810
have on your wall. Why aren't you following those

01:17:59.810 --> 01:18:03.750
steps? They're on the wall. You put them there.

01:18:03.770 --> 01:18:06.310
I didn't even put them there. And what about

01:18:06.310 --> 01:18:08.449
your standard operating procedures? They say

01:18:08.449 --> 01:18:11.510
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then you see,

01:18:12.130 --> 01:18:16.869
okay. So tell us what's your name? Ha, ha, ha.

01:18:17.069 --> 01:18:21.659
And suddenly we had four policemen. on the case

01:18:21.659 --> 01:18:25.819
and then later, can't remember how long later,

01:18:25.859 --> 01:18:28.579
but I was quite impressed. They were really quick.

01:18:28.659 --> 01:18:30.880
I think it was about eight months or something

01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:34.979
and they'd caught somebody, you know, being identified

01:18:34.979 --> 01:18:39.500
by the victim and yeah, put through the court

01:18:39.500 --> 01:18:45.020
system and put in jail. So I was impressed. They

01:18:45.020 --> 01:18:48.979
did a jolly good job. That's awesome. That's

01:18:48.979 --> 01:18:53.399
a really good story. Yeah, don't call you Kim.

01:18:54.619 --> 01:18:57.840
Every jolly police station and puts a firework

01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:02.500
under their bum. Yeah. But maybe what, I don't

01:19:02.500 --> 01:19:04.760
know, maybe what you did, maybe someone will

01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:07.079
find, I mean, I mean, we're finding out about

01:19:07.079 --> 01:19:10.359
this from you, but surely someone has heard that

01:19:10.359 --> 01:19:14.060
story because of you and maybe they will do the

01:19:14.060 --> 01:19:16.869
same. So, I mean, I feel like you are. having

01:19:16.869 --> 01:19:19.930
a pretty... Now a lot more people are going to

01:19:19.930 --> 01:19:24.390
hear it. There you go. There you go. And you

01:19:24.390 --> 01:19:27.170
see, the thing is a lot more people are able

01:19:27.170 --> 01:19:30.489
to do exactly that same thing. You don't need

01:19:30.489 --> 01:19:33.789
a degree to do what I did. You know, you just

01:19:33.789 --> 01:19:38.550
go in there and... Yeah. This is all I do is

01:19:38.550 --> 01:19:43.310
with all LGBT people that come through me, I'm

01:19:43.310 --> 01:19:45.310
saying to them, right guys, these are your rights.

01:19:45.609 --> 01:19:47.689
And they're like, yeah, but the police won't

01:19:47.689 --> 01:19:50.949
listen. I'm like, okay, so these are their responsibilities.

01:19:52.909 --> 01:19:57.409
And yeah, it is a case of knowing your rights

01:19:57.409 --> 01:20:01.189
and just getting that information out there.

01:20:02.689 --> 01:20:05.189
This is a really interesting conversation for

01:20:05.189 --> 01:20:07.489
me. I'd like to share something that I'm doing

01:20:07.489 --> 01:20:14.369
through Be True To Me. transgender nonprofit

01:20:14.369 --> 01:20:17.770
organization, Focus on Transgender Folk in South

01:20:17.770 --> 01:20:21.970
Africa have a support group online. And I'm in

01:20:21.970 --> 01:20:25.630
that group. Through that group, I have met a

01:20:25.630 --> 01:20:29.069
couple of trans women, which is really just a

01:20:29.069 --> 01:20:32.810
big relief for me. Since meeting these women,

01:20:33.409 --> 01:20:36.210
with one of them I am entering into business

01:20:36.210 --> 01:20:40.069
with. We will start selling LGBTQIA plus jewelry,

01:20:40.470 --> 01:20:45.880
hopefully in February. in South Africa. Thank

01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:48.039
you. We're busy building the catalog. Moving

01:20:48.039 --> 01:20:52.920
on. We have also started, I started my own Discord

01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:56.520
server, which is supposed to function as an inclusive

01:20:56.520 --> 01:21:00.979
online space that is adult -friendly, sex -positive,

01:21:01.539 --> 01:21:06.300
and trans -focused. So this is a kind of a...

01:21:06.270 --> 01:21:09.750
opaque group. It's closed, right? It's got a

01:21:09.750 --> 01:21:13.270
specific audience. But through establishing that,

01:21:13.770 --> 01:21:17.329
I met another Discord server, which is trans

01:21:17.329 --> 01:21:20.449
-focused and information -based and open to all.

01:21:21.090 --> 01:21:25.789
And I started talking to that trans woman who

01:21:25.789 --> 01:21:28.270
has been running that server for quite a while.

01:21:28.329 --> 01:21:31.869
And we have since become sister servers with

01:21:31.869 --> 01:21:34.579
different purposes in slightly different audiences.

01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:38.720
We would like to grow. So we started another

01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:42.520
platform, which is meant to be community run

01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:49.119
online space for the, again, trans focus, but

01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:52.060
open to all providing information because it's

01:21:52.060 --> 01:21:56.460
hard to find. Sometimes you need, you need an

01:21:56.460 --> 01:22:00.449
active group of people contributing. socially

01:22:00.449 --> 01:22:03.850
to create a space that is open for newcomers

01:22:03.850 --> 01:22:07.930
to say, Hey, I need help. It's sometimes it's

01:22:07.930 --> 01:22:11.170
daunting to go to a nonprofit organization from

01:22:11.170 --> 01:22:15.770
the start, right? So anyway, we have this third

01:22:15.770 --> 01:22:18.750
platform, which is meant to serve as a filter

01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:23.130
and information page. And if you would share

01:22:23.130 --> 01:22:26.930
it to me, I would love to. put the posters and

01:22:26.930 --> 01:22:29.390
the standard operating procedures for police

01:22:29.390 --> 01:22:32.550
and all of that on there and provide guidance

01:22:32.550 --> 01:22:34.770
for more people. Make it into jewelry, Ruby.

01:22:36.090 --> 01:22:41.069
Sorry? Make it into jewelry. You want the jewelry?

01:22:42.229 --> 01:22:44.210
You want the jewelry, yeah. I want you to make

01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:48.350
those operating standards as jewelry. As jewelry.

01:22:48.409 --> 01:22:52.170
One standard, one necklace. One standard, one

01:22:52.170 --> 01:22:54.329
necklace. There you go. That's a great idea,

01:22:54.569 --> 01:23:06.170
I think. Yeah, so there's a whole range of right

01:23:06.170 --> 01:23:12.430
now focused on coming out, proud parent, transgender,

01:23:12.670 --> 01:23:16.289
gay, and lesbian are the focus for now. And later

01:23:16.289 --> 01:23:22.359
we will expand to be more more sexualities, more

01:23:22.359 --> 01:23:26.579
identities, and also more allies. And when you're

01:23:26.579 --> 01:23:29.479
talking about coming out, please remember that

01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:33.920
it's not safe for some people to come. Of course.

01:23:34.560 --> 01:23:37.800
Literally. Literally. It can be life threatening.

01:23:38.579 --> 01:23:43.460
So just bear that in mind as well. Absolutely.

01:23:44.399 --> 01:23:49.050
Yeah. Like, I think... It's really important.

01:23:49.170 --> 01:23:51.289
A couple of times when I was thinking about coming

01:23:51.289 --> 01:23:55.289
out, I would read online, not everyone, but some

01:23:55.289 --> 01:23:58.369
of the guides will say, look, if it's not safe

01:23:58.369 --> 01:24:03.590
for you, do not come out. Don't. Safety first

01:24:03.590 --> 01:24:08.430
is the most important thing. Absolutely. And

01:24:08.430 --> 01:24:11.170
I mean, there's plenty of time to come out. You

01:24:11.170 --> 01:24:15.170
got the rest of your life. You know, and just

01:24:15.170 --> 01:24:18.109
choose it at a time in your life where you're

01:24:18.109 --> 01:24:22.210
safe, you're self -sufficient, you've got a job,

01:24:22.510 --> 01:24:25.489
you've got a roof over your head, you know, you're

01:24:25.489 --> 01:24:29.170
there. When, when you are self -sufficient, then,

01:24:29.529 --> 01:24:32.810
then, then come out if that's, you know, your

01:24:32.810 --> 01:24:37.069
safest time. Because then if people reject you

01:24:37.069 --> 01:24:41.220
or, you know, That's it's kind of fine. It's

01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:48.960
not nice, but it's fine. Yeah Yeah, but is sometimes

01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:52.060
you don't want to be in a financial financially

01:24:52.060 --> 01:24:55.319
dependent on somebody and then when you come

01:24:55.319 --> 01:24:57.600
out to them They're like, okay. Well now I'm

01:24:57.600 --> 01:25:01.640
going to withdraw that financial Support, you

01:25:01.640 --> 01:25:05.579
know, so yeah, and then that that is that is

01:25:05.579 --> 01:25:11.699
really not fine On that, I think we should wrap

01:25:11.699 --> 01:25:15.199
up today. Kim, it's been fantastic speaking to

01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:19.079
you. Thank you so much for your time out of your

01:25:19.079 --> 01:25:21.760
busy schedule, juggling all of the things that

01:25:21.760 --> 01:25:26.500
you are juggling to speak to little old us online.

01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:31.340
Yeah, no, it's been an absolute pleasure. And

01:25:31.340 --> 01:25:35.920
lovely to meet you, Luigi. Likewise. I met you,

01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:39.420
so it's been lovely. chatting with you virtually.

01:25:40.779 --> 01:25:45.100
And Ray, we've chatted quite a lot, so it's nice

01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:47.760
to see you again. Always, always a pleasure.

01:25:48.560 --> 01:25:51.119
We'll keep chatting for sure, I think. If you

01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.140
ever want to come back, please do. And where

01:25:54.140 --> 01:25:58.079
can I send people that want to contribute to

01:25:58.079 --> 01:26:01.680
Same Love Shoti? Well, we're available online,

01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:07.689
so you can go to either our Well, it's not called

01:26:07.689 --> 01:26:13.529
Twitter anymore. Our X page, you can go to Instagram.

01:26:13.850 --> 01:26:16.609
I think we're most of the time we're on Instagram

01:26:16.609 --> 01:26:21.029
and Facebook, or my personal page as well. But

01:26:21.029 --> 01:26:24.109
yeah, so anyone who wants to help us to further

01:26:24.109 --> 01:26:27.810
this work, because yeah, certain people who shall

01:26:27.810 --> 01:26:31.430
remain nameless have caused there to be a lack

01:26:31.430 --> 01:26:35.529
of funding, I think globally, but specifically

01:26:35.529 --> 01:26:41.020
in in South Africa. So we're always happy for

01:26:41.020 --> 01:26:47.680
any form of support that people can offer. Thank

01:26:47.680 --> 01:26:51.079
you. Kaleidoscope will also be reaching out in

01:26:51.079 --> 01:26:53.939
that capacity. If you want to find Same Love

01:26:53.939 --> 01:26:58.399
Toti, you can find them on Facebook at samelove

01:26:58.399 --> 01:27:03.819
.toti or Instagram at the same handle. You can

01:27:03.819 --> 01:27:09.739
find me, Ruby Ray Liu, at Fire From Heat or TikTok

01:27:09.739 --> 01:27:13.239
at Heat From Fire. And you can find Kaleidoscope

01:27:13.239 --> 01:27:17.500
on YouTube at Echo Perspectives. You can find

01:27:17.500 --> 01:27:22.279
Luigi wherever you can find Kaleidoscope. Living

01:27:22.279 --> 01:27:27.439
in a drawer. I take him out when I need him.

01:27:28.300 --> 01:27:30.680
That's right, Ruby takes me out for every podcast.

01:27:31.479 --> 01:27:37.270
Yeah. Alright, thanks for listening. Bye.