Good evening, listeners, one and all. Welcome
to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray Liu and
today I am joined by Kim Litko, South African
award -winning LGBTQIA plus activist. Chair of
the Hate Crimes Working Group and founder of
Same Love Toti, a non -profit organization advocating
for LGBTQIA plus rights in South Africa. And
human rights international speaker. I'm super
honored to have you here, Kim. I'm also joined
by my co -host, Luigi. Hello. Hello again. We're
back. We're back. My name is Ruby Ray Liu. I
am what happens when you are a teacher playing
Shadowrun on Friday evenings and you discover
a new hobby for painting tiny figurines. Which
is something I've watched my friends do and find
myself being sucked into. Good evening. Ruby,
is Shadowrun a video game? Shadowrun is a tabletop
role -playing game. Okay. Okay. Now it makes
sense. I don't have enough hobbies. I should
get an interesting hobby like that. Don't worry,
I'll keep you busy. Bring your figure in next
time. Yeah, well, I think spacing would be great,
man. Yeah, maybe not so small though. My glasses
wouldn't be able to cope, you know? You can get
the big band around your head with like the magnifying
glass that you pull over. Yeah, yeah, and the
flashlight. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It makes you
look more... What's the word? More knowledgeable
about your subject. Your weird hobby of painting
figurines. Like an expertise. Okay. Could be.
Luigi, do you have a way for us to... Do you
have an introduction for us today? Yes, my name
is Luigi and the rule of thumb for this episode
is there is no rule of thumb. And neither is
there for painting tiny little figurines. Do
it however you want. Okay, cool. Exactly, this
one was done. Good morning, and sorry, go ahead
Ray. Show us your figurine. I was just on the
topic of no rules. This was painted with nail
polish, not the proper paint at all. There you
go. At least it's gonna last longer than everybody
else's. I think so. Yeah. And it has a certain
gloss about it too, that regular pain won't have.
Yeah. Maybe I started a new trend. There you
go. Yeah. Yeah, so my name's Kim and I'm a mother
of two very grown boys. So they're men and they've
married with two kids, now three. So yeah, I
got three grandsons and very happy. Just had
my, well, I didn't have it, thank God, but my
daughter -in -law just had the third grandson.
So we've had like first Christmases three years
in a row. So my painting will be on a Christmas
bauble, you know. First Christmas. So that's
going to be my painting exercise for the year,
I think. That's beautiful. I love that. Thank
you for sharing. I know that you're already very
busy. I've been trying to get a hold of you to
speak to you for so long. And to now know that
you're also a grandmother of three just blows
my mind. You are a superwoman. Yeah, I think
all mothers are though, you know, at least to
their kids. For sure. So on Kaleidoscope, we
like to start off just to warm things up a little
bit with... with a quick question for the other
two participants in the podcast to answer. I
would like to open the floor to see if either
of you have a question you would like to start
with, and then we'll go kind of on the screen,
just let's say counterclockwise today. Counterclockwise?
What? Who does that put first? All of our screens
have a different number. Right now the floor
is open. Whoever wants to go first. Wait! Kim,
was that mug just a Santa Claus mug? No, no.
The rest of my house will be though, very soon.
We're going to start, especially for the kiddies,
we're going to start decorating our house until
it looks like a shopping mall has exploded. My
mother comes in and she goes, it's too much,
it's too much. I'm like, well, I don't think
so. Can't have too much glitter, too much Santa,
too much presents. But yeah, my family have different
views. Like my son, he says to me, mom, you can't
now buy the kids like loads and loads of presents.
And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, first plan is dashed.
So. I said to him, okay, no problem. I went out
and I bought a keyboard and brought it back,
give it to the kid. And I said, okay, this is
not a Christmas present. I'm buying him an everyday
present. So that way I can still buy my presents
for the kids. You're lucky to have you. That's
good. Man, I miss, I miss insane like holiday
Christmasy decoration, whatever. I'll tell you
both. I, for the first time ever, I've been in
China for 12 years. And this is, I just yesterday,
and this is why today I'm a little tired. I was
up late. I put up a tree for the first time ever
and decorated it. Yes, thank you. Took a lot
of courage. You'll see it Ruby next time you
come over. I got a full blown tree, but now I'm
a little worried I've opened. Some kind of box
because I want to get more decorations. I don't
know. I don't know if it's a good idea I don't
want my apartment. I would love my apartment
full of decorations, but also at the same time.
I Don't know. Maybe it's too much. I need to
finesse it. Where? Not for me. I mean I Love
decorations. I hate cleaning them up and my contribution
to Christmas this year will be Secret Santa gifts
and teaching my kids the Charleston Swing. Not
by my kids, I mean my students. We're doing students.
Jingle Bell Rock, but with the Charleston Swing
song. Dance. Very nice. I hope you're going to
post a video of this. Well, because of like child
protection laws, I can share it individually.
Yeah, but not online. Well, it sounds very good.
It sounds lots of fun. That's nice. Yeah, if
it's good enough, it will go through on the schools
like public one and then from there I will be
able to share it. Yeah, beautiful. Well, that's
lovely. No decorating though, Ruby? No decorations.
No decorating. No. All right. Not for me. Fair.
Anyway. Was that your quick fire question? Mine?
Yeah. Well, I guess it could be. No, actually,
I saw the mug, and then I just thought Santa
and Christmas. But now I'm curious, Kim, are
you a purveyor of mugs like I am? I have many
novelty mugs. Yes. I love mugs. That's my other
addiction. Oh, there you go. Kindred's here.
I've now been banned. My family have told me,
that's it, Ma, no more coffee mugs. Really? Do
you have a favorite? This is my favorite. I have
it all the time. Oh, nice. I'm going with this
gimmick, but yeah, it is my favorite. Yeah. No,
I don't. I don't. I just buy sort of, I guess
it's gimmicky. So maybe Ray, you can look down
on me. Not at all. Look what I have. That's gimmicky.
That's the most gimmicky thing anybody can buy.
Their own name. I can't see it. Yeah. Wait, what?
Yeah. Yeah, probably. I have a decoration in
my house that is my own name. That's, it doesn't
get more gimmicky than that. Okay. Okay. No,
no. My, my family get mugs. Like if it's Easter,
they get... Easter mugs. If it's Christmas, they'll
get Christmas. And of course, mom and dad have
to get like the best mom or best dad. That's
great. Yeah. So everybody gets their own sort
of special ones. My one son, he's a Marvel addict.
So anything superhero on a mug goes to him. But
everybody's now mugged out. So yeah, so now we'll
have to think of something different. I do love
a good mug. I love buying mug sets, pairs that
are interesting. Like I have this set from Starbucks
that has like dopamine and caffeine and serotonin
on it. And one's black and one's white. Otherwise
they're the same mug. But I've been banned from
buying mugs. I'm not allowed to. Now we only
have four mugs. I never knew this about you.
Yeah, that's why I love your unicorn mug. Yeah,
but why didn't you ever tell me you have a bunch
of novelty mugs? Even when we work together,
I never saw you have mugs at your desk. Yeah,
performative minimalism. You're saying I'm performing.
Let me, okay, on the topic of mugs real quick.
I've started, whenever I go home, I've started
getting my mom mugs whenever I see them. So like
I do a lot of thrifting. Obviously I'll go to
bookstores and then there'll be a mug. But it
has to be a really like sac, what's the saccharine?
Is that the word? Sweet. Like it always, I've
been getting my mom every mug I see that's like
best mom, number one mom to a point where it
just annoys her. Okay, that's sweet. But also
very cringey. It is, it's great. I'm doing it.
It's been great. Yeah, well my mom's favorite
mug is the one I got her for receiving tears.
You know, it's got a lovely lady on it and 70
is fabulous or something. Yeah. So she, that's
her favourite mug. So I'm glad. Shane, they said,
cause they're busy moving to a retirement village
now. And they said to me that I'm the only one
who buys them all of these like sentimental things.
So yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm a soppy thing
like that. Yeah. I think it's good too. I'll
keep buying my mom's mugs even if she gets annoyed.
The other thing that I collect that is kind of
strange is odd dictionaries. Like normal dictionaries,
dictionaries that are very different. Not words.
In what way? No, they are words. For example,
there's this really old bookshop in... England
called Foyle's Bookstore, I think. It's this
guy, Christopher Foyle, who is a logophile, a
lover of words, and he has been going through
the English language for many years in his bookstore,
and he curated two books called Foyle's Fallavory.
Fallavory is a collection of strange and wonderful
words. into these two books. And they're just
like the most rarely used books in the English
language. They are gorgeous. And then I have
the big book of Talking Dirty, which is a collection
of historical slurs. I'm into it. Yeah, so tell
us something interesting then in words. What's
your interesting words? What's the most interesting
slur in the world, Ruby? You know, I don't remember
any of them now. I'm drawing a total blank. Well,
how about this? For an old word for lesbian was
companion. So if two ladies lived together, nobody
said that they were, you know, those terrible
words. It was, this is companion. And everybody
would be like, their eyes would be, oh, she has
a companion. Right. That's, that's, uh, is this
before? or after the star tattoos. Oh lord, no,
I'm sure it was way before the star tattoos.
I'm sure it's somewhere around like the twizz
or something. What do you mean when you say that?
The star tattoos. What do you guys mean when
you say the star tattoos? Is there an inside
joke you don't know about? No, it's not a joke.
Off you go, Ray. Okay, I might be wrong on the
history here. The star tattoos come from American
culture, bar culture, and lesbian women would
tattoo a little star on the inside of their wrist
that was easy to cover and it would mark them
out. I think it's also etymologically where maybe
gold star lesbians come from and a gold star
lesbian is someone who has never had relations
with a man. Learning something new every day.
I do not know that. Well done. I'm curious if
that's real fact or just like folk lore. Lesbians
folk lore. Gold star lesbians are a thing. It's
a point of pride. But I do think that kind of
leans into potentially like a, it's a sub category
of purity culture in a way. It sounds like it,
yeah. Yeah. Personally, not totally into it,
but to each their own, yeah. Yeah. It sounds
like... Carry on, Kim, you go first. No, no,
I was just, I was just speculating. I had thought
maybe it was something to do with, um, like the
Holocaust, you know, because of the Star of David
and how, like, the Jews and the gays were all
like... executed together. So I thought maybe
that's why the star was a thing. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And the pink triangle. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I think this is just a five -pointed star. It's
not the star of David. I might be wrong. I'm
not a lesbian. I'm a bisexual person. Okay. Um,
now I'm blushing. It sounds like we're about
to touch on the meteor stuff of this podcast,
so I'll ask my quick -fire question quickly and
then we can share our... I'll take us away with
the first perspective. My question is, what is
a hobby that you always wanted to try but never
did? Small figurine making. You never wanted
to try that. I introduced you to it today. No,
let me tell you real quick. Actually, actually,
when I was young, I had a whole bunch of toys,
like figurines, as most kids do, just garbage,
because I had a big family, I had a lot of sisters,
so there was a lot of junk. And there was a time
when I got the idea from seeing some other artist,
I guess, of dissecting the figurines and mismatching
them and putting them all together in different
ways. So, like, taking... a troll doll's head
and putting it on the body of, like, a velociraptor.
So I made up those weird art, and it really freaked
my mom out. And she... I had a lot. And she all
threw them all away. Because she thought something...
Well, I mean, she was concerned. I guess it had
serial killer vibes. But that wasn't the case,
so... Ever watch Toy Story? Because you're giving
antagonist vibes. Yeah, it's like, you know,
Toy Story. Yeah, you're right. But it wasn't
that weird. I think... If you saw them, you know,
they had more artistic merit. They're really
creative. I really thought about them. Like the
potato man, the potato man. You're like Mr. Potato
Head, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, they were
small. Okay. But, okay, so yeah, I did dabble
in figurines when I was a child. I gotta say.
Well, you sound exactly like my brother. He was
like he was younger than me. So he literally
broke everything so yeah, your your exploits
are very sort of Nostalgic for me, I guess Yeah,
and for me my one my thing is playing the violin
I love the violin And I don't think it's in many
songs today, but yeah, because I'm not exactly,
I am talking, I guess, about the operatic kind
of violin, but then you also get the really jazzy
kind of violin that was in songs like Shania
Twain had a lot of violins jumping around in
the back, but you know, jazzy kind of fun violins.
I'm trying to think of the song now because it
was a formative song for me from Shania Twain.
I know exactly the one you're talking about with
the violin. Where they're playing violin, I think
in the rain. It's like multiple... Yeah, yeah,
something like that. So I've always been really
impressed with people who can play violin and
I've always thought, well, one day. We possibly
will do that, but right now we're super busy.
So that's not going to happen. Instead, I play
keyboard and guitar. It's enough for me. Very
cool. Luigi, what were you saying when you think
of violins? When I think of the violin, there's
one song. I think it's the violin. It's obviously
classical music. I think it's called the Dance
of Death or something like that. Not literally
English, the Dance of Death. It has some other
kind of weird name. Is it that one where it's
the devil, the dancing, the dueling with the
devil or something? Maybe that's it. And then
it's got a fiddle that... Yes. Yeah, it's like
a... You know, like a country song. You know
that one? It's the dance macabre. That's the
song. That's the song I think of. Okay. I don't
know if there's violins in it. Okay. It's got
it. It's got like a fiddle. That's what I think
of when I think of violence. Anyway, okay, that's
a good answer. Yeah, something you wish you could
learn. Yeah. Really? I think once you hear it,
you'll go, ah, yes, I know what song he's talking
about. But then you'll say that there are no
violence. We'll send it to you after. You will
see. Okay. Yeah, I also play guitar and keyboard.
I guess it's an electric piano, but not so much
anymore. I got busy. I used to watch TV too and
now it's always just online posting videos and
looking for people to talk to. And I love it
way more. I find this extremely fulfilling. And
that kind of brings me to my perspective today.
I want to talk about the challenges in life because
that's so broad. There are things that I've always
wanted. to do and am doing now, but they're not
easy. I've said before that I accidentally became
a teacher. Being a teacher kind of happened to
me through the course of my life and for a long
time I just kind of accepted that. Much in the
same way that I accepted my assigned gender at
birth and in many ways Resilience came through
from staying alive, staying subscribed to this
thing that we call life and not electing to unsubscribe.
But now also all of those skills kind of helped
me to keep on doing this and not get tired and
do crazy things like running two jobs. And now
just last night I posted the first episode of
a new second podcast. And yeah, I'm cheating
on you, Louis. You didn't even tell me. It's
called Freaky Friday with Ray and Bun. It's a
drive -along. I'll tell you about it. Yeah, you're
gonna have to. Jeez. So multiple social media
accounts running all by myself and I... I just
think that basically what I'm trying to get to
is the perspective. We often let life hold us
back because we are afraid to do the things that
are hard. I feel like we talked about this. It
seems so familiar. It's universal. Yeah, I guess
that's why. I agree 110%. It is certainly hard
to... I was talking about this with someone else
today, actually. Are we really doing the things
we really want to do? And if we think we're doing
the things we really want to do, are those really
our thoughts? Or is there like, that's the problem
with ideology. It's the thing, we think we know
what we're doing, but really there are other
factors really pushing us or influencing us.
You know, like the tip of the iceberg and everything
underneath. So, yeah. I mean, do you mind doing
what I want to do? I would say by default, yes.
But like you, Ruby, I didn't exactly set out
to do this. I did, when I was young, I wanted
to teach in a university setting. And then it
transformed into me teaching in an international
school, K to 12 setting. So a lot of that was
just because of where I was. And obviously other
factors, like making a good wage. Yeah. I lost
my train of thought. I had something even more
important to say, but I'll leave the floor open
to you two. And then when it... comes back in
my head, I'm going to interrupt. Yeah. Look,
I think you're right though, Luigi. It is a case
of like, you know what, a lot of times we're
pushed into either through circumstance or through
expectations of other people. We're pushed into
a certain way. And sometimes if it fits for us,
you know, we don't mind going along. Um, and
yeah, I think, um, you know, yeah. Yeah, we all
make decisions though for ourselves. And I think
for myself, at least it's been a case of, yes,
you know, I spent a lot of time, people pleasing,
you know, even without realizing it. But, but
definitely, I mean, you want approval from your
parents. You want approval from your peers. You
know what? I mean, I think that as well, that's
a universal thing. So, um. So yeah, I think that
if you're finding yourself in a place where,
you know, you're not sort of happy or what have
you, I think you need to then do soul searching
and find out why exactly because then you'll
know, you know, and perhaps you'll know more
of your own self, you know, when you do a bit
of soul search and that, yeah, then you'll know
more of your own self of what. What's going to
make you happy and what's going to fulfill you
more than perhaps we are. Kim, you've done some
pretty incredible things in your life. My question
is, do you think that now you're doing the things
that you really want to do? Because for me, I
feel a sense of responsibility, urgency, need.
to have this podcast, not only to speak to people,
but to also normalize my existence to other people
and not just for me, for others as well. So am
I doing the things that I really want to do?
Yes, absolutely. I also feel a calling. My question
is, is that the same for you? Yes. So very definitely
that's where I started out. So a little bit of
history. So I was married to a guy for 17 years,
had two sons with him, and then we divorced.
And after the divorce, that's when I started
dating women. Then when I met somebody who was
really amazing, who I've now been with for 21
years. So yeah, so we committed. And yeah, so
I met this amazing woman and told my parents,
and bear in mind by now I'm like, I don't know,
40 or something plus, and I'm telling my parents,
and of course they're horrified. Yeah, no. Really?
So they're like, but you were so normal. Why
don't you just go back to being normal? And you
know what? And so, so I struggled with that.
Okay. And because of the struggle that I had
with that, I was like, no, come on. I'm an adult.
What the hell am I doing wanting approval from
my parents? You know, and then I thought, well,
Shane, what about these poor little teenage,
you know, how they just. don't know anything
about love, anything about themselves and like
their parents are just like everything and the
struggle that they face. So between me and a
couple of friends, we decided to then start something
and very much it was a case of, look, we know
how we feel and we can't imagine how a kid would
feel, you know, how much worse it would be for
them. So Yeah, we wanted to be able to give them
a safe space. And more importantly, we wanted
to be able to speak with parents and just help
parents go through that shock and that lack of
information that they have. You know, because
as well, I'm like really aware that that World
Health Organization only declassified being gay
as a mental illness in 1990. Okay. So. That's
kind of really soon ago in our history. Anyone
born or brought up before 1990 was taught it's
a mental illness. There's something wrong with
you. There's something physically wrong. Kids
are all born heterosexual and cisgender. They're
all fixing the box of boys and girls. And anything
other than that is wrong. It needs to be fixed.
or it's somebody's fault, definitely. So, talk
that. And so really it's a case of, look, let's
get more information out there and bring people
along with extra information and that certainly
helps. I see you there, Ray, and I'm thinking,
you know, I know that information is not the...
only thing that gets rid of transphobia and,
you know, barphobia and homophobia. It doesn't.
Information isn't the pill, as it were. It's
one stepping stone in helping people come to
terms with it, you know, if they're open to it.
Absolutely. I agree with you. And that's one
of the things that I struggled with in thinking,
because I I had this kind of awakening and I
know that sounds to anybody not trans I can sound
very strange or anybody who hasn't gone through
this realization that they aren't authentically
themselves and when I did I had a lot of information
available to me because I'm quite adept at doing
things online and existing as a person. Really
the first expression of my femininity was online
in the form of an alter ego or at least a pseudonym
that I had. And that's true for many trans women.
There's a good reason there are so many trans
programmers. What I had was information. Carry
on. I'm so sorry about that. That happened to
me two podcasts ago, right, Ruby? Yeah, it did.
Yeah, exactly. With actually, you know her, Shay.
We had Shay on here. Yeah. And Luigi had to leave
for like 10 minutes. Just outside my door. Trying
to fill in a form with a Chinese delivery, man.
It was fun. My therapist, Luigi, and guest and
friend of Kaleidoscope is the person who introduced
me to Kim way back when I was desperately finding
out about or getting information, which is exactly
what we're talking about now. And I'll cut my
story a little bit short. I had information.
What I wanted was there are also trans personalities
online that are really great. giving information
and providing kinship. What I wanted to do is
show existence with cis people. And I think all
of it is needed. Everything is needed. It is.
It is very much so. And I think that also, you
know what, it brings a depth. So what you're
doing is different to what they're doing. And
while it's important, It brings a depth when
you see different people doing different things,
you know, and then the public can kind of understand
that being trans is not a sort of a single -celled
thing. You know, all trans people are like this,
all trans people do that. Right, not one dimensional.
You know, it's like, no, there's actual depth
here. There's, there's, um, you know, different
personalities, there's different skill sets,
there's different everything, just like with
cisgender people, they're complex, they're multifaceted.
Transgender people are exactly the same. And
yeah, it also leans a lot into the work that
I do as well, is in bringing those together,
you know? Yeah. How do you think a service like,
or I guess platform, I'm not sure how to fully
define Kaleidoscope as we continue to grow. How
do you think something like us serves? the community
that we're in and how do we link in and help
people doing their, like, really hard groundwork,
like what you're doing, creating laws. How do
we help? How do we contribute to that? Yeah,
look. So for myself, because the work that I'm
doing is very much activism on a sort of a...
Well, I'm not sure if your listeners will...
will know exactly what I'm doing. So we started
off as a nonprofit organization providing services
to LGBT youth and to their parents. So basically
we were looking at the family unit and trying
to keep that together. And then I got to a stage
where I was like, you know what, I'm so tired
of putting people together after they've been
hurt. by homophobia, transphobia, all that. So
how about we stop it from happening before, before
it gets to hurt somebody. So that's how Come
Then Up went more into advocacy. And advocacy
is where you actually like, for example, I used
to go to speak at schools, I still can. That
would be one way is to invite people to come
and speak. wherever you are, if you're at a school,
if you're at work, you know, if you're having
a woman's breakfast or something, you can always
have somebody come and speak and share, you know.
It's about getting the word out there and it's
also about offering whatever type of support
you can, whether it be in kind. or whether it
be financial or whether it be other resources,
but yeah, it would be about that. I started off
working in schools and then after that I was
like, you know what, I'm one person. I can go
to one school and maybe five, ten and near me,
but if I go to the Department of Education, the
National Department of Education, they If I can
tell them what to do, they can just do a blanket
thing over the whole of South Africa and say,
look, every school has to do this. And so that's
how my sort of journey in advocacy started. Yeah,
we've done that. We've gone to the Department
of Education. And when I say we, I mean, I think
it's important to note that advocacy is never
a one -person thing. You know, there's so many
other people involved, whether it's lawyers or
researchers or just lots of people involved.
So then you get to actually make changes where
they count, where the power is to affect that
change over four more people than you could ever
hope to meet. So yeah, so that, and yeah, obviously
then it went a lot further than that. I just
want clarification. So Kim, you have, so when
Ruby told me about you, she said you were an
advocate and you're fighting against hate speech,
is that right? Correct, yes. Right. So, it sounds
like you do a lot of things. And at the beginning,
when we first started, you introduced yourself,
and what was the place called? Same love. I'm
sorry if I'm saying this wrong, because I've
not said that ever again. Toady? Yeah. Okay,
so that's your kind of like group or your, I
don't know, can I say company? What do you call
it? Yeah, so that's our sort of non -profit organization.
There you go. I founded that. Yeah. And that
is what provides, does service provision per
se. And then from that, I also, we also got together
an advocacy team to be able to do more, more
work with, with, with people in power. So basically
that comes to things like, like we've just had
the Do you want me to go on and do the G20? Cause
that's the most recent. Yeah. Okay. So the G20
is just when 20 different countries get together
and basically the presidents have a chat and
decide, okay, these are changes that we can make,
policies that we can draw up, laws that we can
make to make our countries better for the people
who live there. And yeah, so essentially there's
also a C20, which is civil society. So now we're
a nonprofit organization and our nonprofit organization
has joined a coalition called the Hate Crimes
Working Group. Now the Hate Crimes Working Group
specifically advocates it for hate crime legislation
in South Africa. That as well, that's a whole
new... Different story, but essentially we got
it passed in 2024. Oh wow, pretty recent. 23,
yeah, 23, I think it was. And, um, and now we're
focusing on implementation. And this is where
now all of this other advocacy comes. Cause now
the G20, it's G for governments. Okay. Government
leadership and all that. C20 is for civil society.
So the civil society gets together and Brazil,
you had the G20 last year. This year it was South
Africa, next year it's America. So this year
we had the G20 and we got the policy pack from
Brazil. Essentially, it's all the things that
they thought was great. They give to us now and
we see if we can improve on it. Okay. And so
we looked and now in the C20, there's all of
these different groups. There's a women's group,
there's a disability group, a business group,
whatever, whatever, whatever group. And there's
nothing for LGBT people. Not at all. So we're
like, well, okay. But then, you know, we went
into the women's group and looked at their policy
to see if we were included in there and we were
not. We looked in the education policy. We were
not included in there. We looked in all of the
policies. There was not one mention of LGBT people
anyway. And we were like offended, to put it
mildly, to put it mildly. So we were quite annoyed.
And so we decided, okay, fine. The C20 though,
I'll give credit where credit is due. They did
realize that there was a gap. So they said, no,
no, no, no, no. We do want to meet with the LGBT
community and we do want to hear what they have
to say. And so we're going to make the guy in
charge as the Sherpa. And then he has a Sue Sherpa,
which is like deputy. But they said, no, they're
going to two Sue Sherpas. And the one has to
be from the queer community to represent them.
So I thought, well, okay, that's, you know, that's
great. So anyway. Yeah, makes sense. They did
that, but then we, we still had to go into all
of the policies. So there were 14, 14 different
policies. and making sure that LGBT voices and
let's be honest I mean LGBT people have very
unique and separate challenges to what other
people have so we had to make sure that those
challenges were acknowledged and that there were
suggestions on how to solve those problems you
know so we did that and And I think we did the
first draft on all of these policies. Then they
said, all right, now we're going to do the second
draft. And we went and we looked at the policy
we had already done and, you know, we'd put stuff
in. Now we were going to take it and do a second
draft with it. And all of our LGBT stuff had
been erased, just deleted. I know. We were so
angry. So we went back into all of these meetings
and said, No, we need to be in there. And we,
we argued with everybody and got ourselves put
back in again. Thank goodness. And then we decided,
no, hold on. It's just too easy to just erase
us. So let's, let's create the Q20, queer 20,
you know, so that. Okay. Going forward, there
is a working group that governments have to consult
with. You see? So we literally made history.
You can't take it away. And I'm honest, I am
so proud of the LGBT people that, that, that,
that, you know, worked, that, that we worked
with and worked so hard to get this done. We
created our own declaration that we submitted
to the C20 because even the W20 and the Education20,
they all have to submit their own declarations
to the C20. And then the C20 takes all of that
and makes one C20 declaration. So anyway, we
created this Q20. We created the declaration.
We launched it at the C20 summit. Yeah. So it's
been done and going forward, like I said, that's
the most important thing is going forward. You're
always going to have to ask the queers. Yeah.
And this happened. Like just last month? Yeah.
Yeah, we've only just finished the G20 now. We've
only just finished it. Yeah, because after the
C20, once they make their declaration, which
included us, and they listed all of the different
working groups, and we were there, right at the
bottom, but we were there. Yeah. Yeah, and then
they give that to the G20, which is then the
president of South Africa was given that. And
at the G20 social summit, that's where we went
and we gave this to the president. The president
himself said, thank you very much for making
this, you know, an inclusive policy and for,
you know, all the months you've been working.
Look, he was speaking to hundreds of us, but
it was nice anyway. And he even mentioned all
of these, you know, different groups like the
D20 and the Q20. And of course all the gays are
going... Yeah, yeah. You know, the president
said our name. So, so yeah, so it was, it was
fun and it was, it was exciting. Yeah. And we're
just not thinking about next year. Right. When
it goes to Trump, cause he's already said he
won't accept our declaration and we're not invited
to the G20 in America. And why do I, why do I,
why do I? So he's already done all the... He's
a whiny baby. Come on. It's not forever. He's
not forever. No, well, I think that's what people
like Trump forget, is that, you know, this is
not our first time around the block. You know,
we are used to fighting to exist, you know? Yeah,
and it's... Yeah, it's... I mean, I understand
why Trump would say it because he's Trump, but,
you know, for America to... not have something
like a Q20, I think. It's just... Yeah. It will
happen. America can't not, because America, I
think, historically, is always the first to kind
of, you know, lead the way in things like that.
Have you been watching America lately? I mean,
I have. It's not in a good state. Well, look,
we'll see however he reacts. So we will respond
the way we respond. And the thing that we are
encouraged about is that it is just America.
Other countries are pretty much over it. They're
saying, listen. We're an independent country.
We're not, you know, we make our own rules for
our own country and we'll do our own and we want
to be inclusive. So we're having a lot of countries
saying that. For example, the UK, the activists
that we spoke to said, listen, you know, after
America, the G20 comes to the UK. So whatever
gets squashed in America will just revive. Yeah.
You know, it's fine. It's fine. It's part of,
it's part of just fighting to be alive. But this
is one of our wins. So we've made history. You
can't take that away. You can ignore it. You
can try and, you know, break it down, whatever
you're going to do. But at the end of the day,
the history books have been written. Yep. So,
okay, just to clarify. Yeah. So Q20, a creation
of South Africa. We're more specifically your
group. Very first to do it. Yeah, exactly. The
very first. I am honored. The only thing is we're
quite a raggedy bunch. No, we're not like these
high people. We're just regular people. Yeah.
Well, I think that's what the world needs to
see. Examples of that. Just everybody being able
and capable. not having to come from any particular
point of privilege to, you know, achieve something
great that makes the world a better place. Yeah.
Yeah. And to be honest with you, that is kind
of my message that I really want to go away with
is to be saying, listen, you know, I come from
a sort of a thing of I'm just a housewife. I
don't have it. degree, um, I'm not a lawyer.
I'm not, but it's just a case of look, um, I'm
there and I'm put, you know, you can always learn
what the laws are. You can always learn how to
change them. You can always, you know, that's
the only way I've done it is sort of learning
on the job and just going from, from strength
to strength, but you know, being supported by.
all the other activists and that as well around
us. So I think just it's a case of what I've
done, anybody can do it. If you want to do it,
you can do it, you know? Yes. One foot in front
of the other and you can do it. Yeah, I think
the, I think, yeah, I mean, to put it bluntly,
knowledge is free, more or less. It's only the
idea that... It isn't, and that stops people
from even trying to learn because I think in
the past, at least for me, maybe in my generation
growing up, it was that you have to go to school,
for example. You have to pay for knowledge, but
nothing stops a person from, especially nowadays
with the internet, let's say, but nothing stops
a person from going into the library and opening
a book or talking to people who had the privilege
of going to education. A friend of mine growing
up, their family, were very wealthy and just
because of the success of that person's father
who explained to us all he did was when he was
young he just went to the library and he learned
and then he you know grew this like incredible
business and they were such a really successful
family again yeah anyone can do it it's just
a question of knowing the only person that might
be getting in your ways yourself 100%, you know?
And I think this does come back to what Ray was
saying about resilience. You come against these
things that bring you down, and sometimes one
of those things is yourself and your lack of
confidence, you know? And if you can just put
yourself in a place of, look, I'm just gonna
try this, you know, and then just not give up.
For example, when we started, Okay. We, we, we'd
made this decision in my lounge that we were
going to start this organization. Okay. And,
and, and, um, and so all we did was put an ad
in the newspaper that we were going to have the
support group and we spoke to the library and
asked them if we could use one of their rooms.
And then every month we went to the library and
we took coffee and tea and muffins and nobody
came. Nobody came. Right, yeah. And the next
month was the same. So we were giving out our
muffins to, you know, the homeless people on
the street and the security guard. So they liked
us very much. And my partner even said, what
are we even doing this for? Like, nobody's coming.
We must just give it up. People were coming,
but the security guards were stopping them because
they wanted the muffins. They wanted the muffins.
Yeah, they were beating off the gays. Go! It's
our mother! Nobody ever knew, eh? Yeah, no, but,
um, so we just continued. And eventually people
started dribbling in, you know, little bit by
little bit. And we grew from strength to strength.
So yeah, it's a case of, yeah, it is a kind of,
it is a tough road to go. But you learn on the
way. I mean, you know, and there's so many more
people more qualified than you, but they might
be more qualified, but they also either don't
have the time or that's not their focus for their
life or what have you. You're, you're filling
a gap that other people are not. So yeah, it's
a case of just going, even though you don't have
the confidence. or the skills, just do it anyway.
It's like my dating life. Just do it. Ruby, we've
mentioned something like this before, haven't
we? It sounds so familiar. We've talked about
this. Remind me. Just do the things that you
want to do. Definitely. It's a topic that often
permeates the conversations I'm in. But I don't
remember anything particular right now. Yeah
It's something that I've told my kids because
they're like well, they're like everybody else
You know, I mean everybody has some something
they don't like about the world around them You
know, this life's fair whatever whatever but
then change it Change it. I could change it and
that takes hard work and and Yeah, so But it
is at least something you can do. Right. And
I think also the thing is also don't be too comfortable.
Don't be too comfortable. Don't take things for
granted. Yeah, always good advice. Definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, for example, yeah. Go ahead. No,
in South Africa, we've had a marriage equality
since 2006. Okay. Thank you to the lesbians.
Thank you lesbians. That's a funny story. The
lesbian, there was a lesbian couple and they
wanted to adopt these kids. They weren't allowed.
And so they said, no, no, no, no, they're going
to go to court first to adopt the kids and worry
about getting married later. So we were, and
lesbians were, and gay. gay couples were allowed
to adopt kids from 2005. Really? Yeah, they were
allowed to adopt kids first before they got married.
Then, in 2006, we were allowed to get married,
actually get married. It was probably happening,
and the government was thinking, we look really
silly. Yeah, yeah. So we've had that, and you
know what, we could be really comfortable and
say, yeah, that's great, but... Guess where I
was yesterday. Guess where I was. I was sitting
in front of parliament online like this though.
Okay. And they're looking at the marriage bill
and at the moment South Africa has three marriage
laws, one for heterosexuals, one civil union
for same -sex couples and then one for traditional
and religious marriages. And they all have different
rules and what not. So they've decided, okay,
now they're going to have one law, but first
they have to have a public hearing, you see,
and see what the public think. Well, of course,
so all of the religious nuts are out there. We
can't have the gays getting married. So yeah,
we're responsible apparently for a lot of things.
Like there's a 5 % drop in marriages across the
world. Clearly, it's because the gays have been
allowed to get married. That has nothing to do
with the economy. No, not at all. So, okay, jokes
aside. Jokes aside. There are real people that
are well funded and well connected and are very
keen to get rid of the rights of LGBT community
in general. So it is so important for us to be
in those spaces where we say, okay, we've got
this law and this new law that they are speaking
about introducing is inclusive. of everybody,
it's really good, you know? But unless we have
people standing up and saying, no, this is a
good law, then all the government is going to
hear is how terrible the law is, how we can't
have gays getting married, how we can't have
this, how we can't have that. Yeah, that's a
really good point. So yeah, so although we've
had marriage equality for like 20 years, you
know, we can't ever take that for granted. So
yeah, so that's, that's what we've been doing
as well. Yeah. You make a really good point.
It does need to be simplified. Like, when I actually
was aware of the fact that you were in parliament,
because I was speaking to another person who
was also in parliament. Who? Leanne. Oh, Leanne!
Oh, she's, she's... She's one of my favorite
people. She's amazing. I had the privilege of
meeting her when I was in South Africa and I'd
like to think that we've become somewhat friendly
and I asked for her help because I'm not able
to get a hold of DHA to find out if my changes
have been affected and if I can apply for a new
birth certificate and what my new ID number is.
Um, because I'm in China and I tried to call,
I was on hold for 12 minutes and I got a 300
Rand bill. Uh, that's 150 RMB for Luigi and it's
about $30, $40 for Americans for being on hold.
No, less than that. Not even. Oh, sorry. $15.
$15. Yeah. Yeah. Not that much for an American,
but still. Yeah. So anyway, I was like, Leanne,
please help me. Please, please can you check?
And she said, I will, but on Thursday because
I'm in parliament now. That girl is everywhere
and she knows everything and she's got the skinner
down on everybody. And I'm like, oh my gosh.
She's on fire. Like I'm scared of her. She's
supposed to be reckoned with for sure. She is
she is and yet she's got a heart of gold. Hey,
she really has I mean and an Integrity like you
won't believe such integrity. I've got so much
time for her Honestly, and she said such a good
advocate for trans and gender rights Yeah, absolutely
Luigi. Hopefully you get a chance to meet her
as well As I make the rounds in South Africa.
I like it. Sorry, what was that? He said, I like
doing the circuit. It's great. Yeah, it's a lot
of fun. We had a lovely conversation with a man,
Chase King in Cape Town, who started a different
sphere. But again, within that context of we
need everything. Yeah. He started this expressly
LGBTQIA plus inclusive hostel in Cape Town called
SoulFam Hostel. Wonderful. That is so needed.
Yeah. Exactly. Because a lot of hostels are diverse,
but they're not inclusive. And this one is, I
had the privilege of staying there when I was
in Cape Town. So dear listeners, if you are traveling
to South Africa, please do go to Cape Town. That's
also where really the Cape Town mafia is, isn't
it? They're the number one antagonists to our
rights in the country. Okay, who exactly are
you talking about? I'm not exactly sure. I'm
speaking from rumor here. Theorically, I have
heard of the Cape Town mafia, quote unquote,
a conservative think tank. that is hell bent
on demolishing trans and or LGBT rights in South
Africa. Well, we've seen it very much when it
comes to education. The education side, we got,
like I told you, we were trying to get the national
department of education to do something. So what
they did do, because to be honest, they're on
the sides of LGBT people because in South Africa,
We have the laws that say you're not allowed
to discriminate. And then kids go to school and
then they get either bullied or discriminated
against by the teachers. So then the Department
of Education gets sued. And the Department of
Education comes to it every time because it's
clear the child's been discriminated against
and so therefore they have to pay the fines.
And so they're not happy about that, obviously.
So yes, they're wanting. things like SOGIE AC
education and schools. So we worked together
for about two years on a sort of a, what's the
word I'm looking for? But like a book on SOGIE
AC issues for schools. And it was done. It was
passed. The heads of department had all passed
it, everything. They went to every province,
the Department of Education went to every province
and did training on it. And once everything was
done, they were just about to put it into place
when, as you say, the Cape Town mafia came into
place and said, no, they feel that they don't
feel like we've had enough. What was it? Consultation.
There wasn't enough consultation, so they didn't
want it. And we, me and Leanne, and a number
of people jumped up and down and lost our minds
a little bit and said, how can one province hold
the rest of us to ransom? If we are a democracy,
surely the other, I think we have nine provinces.
Geez, I should know this. Nine provinces. I think
we have nine provinces. And we do. And only one
said no. And so now it's been put back in the
box and everybody's quiet about it. So we're
still trying to get that out again. But yeah,
at the moment it's a uphill battle. But it's
there, it's created, it's done. We just need
to get it into the hands of the schools. But
yes, so we have somebody in Cape Town just causing
nonsense. Yes. And, well, let's not name names
today because I do feel there are certain public
figures around the world that... are the loudest
voices and they should really just... Sometimes
just hush. Well, unfortunately, if you tell a
lie often enough, it sounds true. I won't say
it becomes true because it never becomes true,
but people begin to believe it. So, this is why
as well, it is so important for us to just speak
out so that you don't only hear these negative
voices. It's important... us to speak and it
doesn't mean you have to know everything. Even
if you don't know anything, then just, just speak
out anyway, you know, even if it's just from
your heart and it, you must just speak out. One
of the reasons I'm hesitant to name the people
that I know are loud voices is because naming
them platforms them. It gives them, it makes
other people go there and it makes the algorithm
push their names higher into societal sphere
of knowledge. And I just think that for the most
part, they should be entirely ignored, mentioned
in passing. Right. Yes, I agree. Um, yeah, I
do agree on that. Luigi, what's your perspective
for tonight or question that you want to delve
into? Yeah, I want to I want to delve into Well,
let's talk about hate speech because I'm curious
curious what Kim can teach us about it and how
it well like operates in what she does because
Yeah, how does how does hate speech manifest
in antagonizing your your I won't say journey,
but, you know, your goal and what you want to
set out to do. Because when I think of hate speech,
I think of just, like, outright vitriolic language
to people that's, like, violent and aggressive.
But I think maybe it's more finessed. And I'm
just wondering, Kim, if you can define it for
us or tell us, like, how do we know it? How do
we recognize it? How do we stop it? Yeah. So
that was one of the things that we did is we
actually wrote the hate crime legislation that
we advocated for. And so in that legislation,
we were then, you have to actually define what
constitutes hate speech. So the way we defined
it was that it had to be hateful towards a group.
All right. So not, I could say. I hate Joe Soap,
but I can't say I hate Joe Soap because he's
gay, you know, and all gays are rubbish and what
have you. So that, that, that, but then also
to go even further and say it must be against
a group and it must create harm or incite harm
and encourage other people to, to be harmful
towards. towards a particular group. So that's
how we've defined it. So what I've found is that
a lot of people still come to us and say, you
know, this and this happened and this is hate
speech and, you know, we must sort of get them
kind of thing. Yeah, many, many times we have
to say, just calm down. That actually doesn't,
uh, legally, no, it doesn't. meet that standard,
it might be hateful, it might be offensive, it
might be hurtful, it might be whatever, it might
be horrible, you know, but it has to be raised
to the sort of height of being a crime as well.
So officially for us, it has to also do that.
I can give an example. For example, may I try?
Yeah. If I were to say group X are all stupid
and they don't know what they're doing as a demographic
of an entire country or society, that technically
isn't hate speech. But if I said group X should
be banned from society and beaten whenever possible,
that would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
So that is pretty much it. We've just had an
example that we're working with now. So let's
do what you say. Let's not give more airtime
to the actual need. But this person said that
gays were to be killed and then they have a fairly
big following. So their followers online... were
like, yeah, we got the guns, we got everything,
come on, let's go. He then took a mob, literally,
from Durban to Joburg, where he tried to get
the gays over there. And yeah, the police were
called in and what, what, what. Then he came
back to Durban and continued with saying all
these horrible things that he was saying, and
literally it had a negative effect on LGBT people
here. People were thrown off public transport.
A transgender woman was stabbed because this
person's, yeah, the perpetrator was like, no,
you're not allowed to be here. He even went on
to stab the family because the family was allowing
their transgender child to stay at their house.
So it really went into a thing. So we've actually
now taken him to court, the quality court on
this whole thing and recharging him with hate
speech. And yeah, he really is a sort of perfect
case if you want to describe hate speech because
This is the hate speech results in violence hate
speech results in her and yes So yeah, and then
to go on your next thing because you said and
how do we stop that? Well, first of all prevention
is a different thing altogether Because now prevention
means that now we're looking at ways to stop
the behavior, you know? So legislation is one
of the first ways you can do it, because without
legislation, how are you going to know? I mean,
we all know technically, but when it comes down
to research and that there's no, like currently,
there's no data, and you can't collect data because
it's not documented. Whereas now that we have
hate speech and hate crime as a law, now it can
be documented. Now we can say, all right, there's
a hundred cases of hate speech. And why was there
this? It was there because of maybe it was a
religious group or something. So then we would
go to churches and try and educate them. get
them on board, you know, to at least say the
simplest thing like, please don't kill gay people.
Right. You would think that churches would want
to say, please don't kill people. Yeah. Yeah.
So, but anyway, yeah. And then in schools, it's
easier to teach in schools to say, listen, guys,
if you don't want to end up in jail, you know.
Don't break the law. And this is one of the laws
you're not allowed to break. So prevention comes
down to education and just awareness. One of
the things I like to ask politicians is to do
things like, you know, like we did with AIDS.
With AIDS, we put posters everywhere. There were
billboards on the freeway. Adverts on the TV,
all these public announcements, public service
announcements were just plastered everywhere
you can think of. And that's what we need to
do with LGBT rights as well. We need to be saying,
listen, gays are allowed to get married. So don't
complain if you see them get dating, you know?
Transgender people are allowed to transition.
Don't complain if you see a transgender person.
There's a high chance that what you think is
a transgender person isn't actually a transgender
person. Exactly. Exactly. Stop stereotyping people.
Yeah. That's another one. I mean, there's so
many we could put out there. This is why we need
flags. Yeah. I do believe it would help, you
know, but... But yeah, it won't always because
if a person is hateful and they're just looking
for a reason to hate, hate is gonna hate. It's
just the way it is. True, truer words. But I
suppose, you know, it sounds like the law is
pretty good in protecting the people. I mean,
the laws are set up and all that, you know, all
that can happen is that people become aware of
these laws and maybe that will... incentivize
them from doing anything really bad, as opposed
to a place where there aren't any laws made.
So can you stop that? South Africa has a really
incredible constitution. Sorry, you carry on.
Okay. I was just going to say South Africa has
an incredible constitution and a lot of really
good laws. The part where we struggle is application.
Well, yeah, I guess so. But to me, that just
doesn't, it's a paradox to me. It doesn't make
sense because you have all these laws, really
good laws, but the applications. So why? Why
is that? It's governmental incompetence. It's
because of the homophobia. Yeah. Sorry, Kim.
I think that we struggle with application because
of corruption and incompetence. That's all. Once
those problems are solved, almost all of South
Africa's problems disappear. Yeah. Yeah. No,
but I also think it is homophobia and transphobia
and that because we can go and educate people.
Like, for example, we went and did a sensitization
on this one police station that was known for
being homophobic. Wow. The thing is not only
did we give them sensitization. All right. There's
also a protocol that all police and all police
stations are supposed to follow. It's called
the standard operating procedures. Okay. Right.
And they have special standard operating procedures
for LGBT people. And that's not even coming from
an activist. That is, the police themselves have
standard operating procedures. The problem is
police on the ground either don't know they're
there or they don't care that they're there.
But that certainly was the case where we found,
we went there, we did what's his name with them.
So we had... trained them essentially and then
it was about I think six months to a year later
we had a case of someone going there and being
treated horribly quite humiliating you know and
it turned out then they didn't want to open a
case at all and they walked out and thank goodness
they phoned me and they told me darn, darn, you
know, police station. They won't open my case.
These are the terrible things they've said to
me. And I was like, just wait there. And I got
in my car, drove over there. And yeah, I just
walked in and said, okay, can I speak to your
station commander? And then you see all of the
police like, pardon? Why, why, why do you want
to speak to them? And then, yeah. And then once
I started talking, because obviously I didn't
go there as little old me. I went there as like,
I'm the chair of the hate crimes working group.
We document hate crimes. We believe we have a
victim here that's trying to open a case and
like, what is the problem? You know? And then
they're like, ah, but, but. We didn't know. And
I'm like, okay, so here's the poster that you
have on your wall. Why aren't you following those
steps? They're on the wall. You put them there.
I didn't even put them there. And what about
your standard operating procedures? They say
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then you see,
okay. So tell us what's your name? Ha, ha, ha.
And suddenly we had four policemen. on the case
and then later, can't remember how long later,
but I was quite impressed. They were really quick.
I think it was about eight months or something
and they'd caught somebody, you know, being identified
by the victim and yeah, put through the court
system and put in jail. So I was impressed. They
did a jolly good job. That's awesome. That's
a really good story. Yeah, don't call you Kim.
Every jolly police station and puts a firework
under their bum. Yeah. But maybe what, I don't
know, maybe what you did, maybe someone will
find, I mean, I mean, we're finding out about
this from you, but surely someone has heard that
story because of you and maybe they will do the
same. So, I mean, I feel like you are. having
a pretty... Now a lot more people are going to
hear it. There you go. There you go. And you
see, the thing is a lot more people are able
to do exactly that same thing. You don't need
a degree to do what I did. You know, you just
go in there and... Yeah. This is all I do is
with all LGBT people that come through me, I'm
saying to them, right guys, these are your rights.
And they're like, yeah, but the police won't
listen. I'm like, okay, so these are their responsibilities.
And yeah, it is a case of knowing your rights
and just getting that information out there.
This is a really interesting conversation for
me. I'd like to share something that I'm doing
through Be True To Me. transgender nonprofit
organization, Focus on Transgender Folk in South
Africa have a support group online. And I'm in
that group. Through that group, I have met a
couple of trans women, which is really just a
big relief for me. Since meeting these women,
with one of them I am entering into business
with. We will start selling LGBTQIA plus jewelry,
hopefully in February. in South Africa. Thank
you. We're busy building the catalog. Moving
on. We have also started, I started my own Discord
server, which is supposed to function as an inclusive
online space that is adult -friendly, sex -positive,
and trans -focused. So this is a kind of a...
opaque group. It's closed, right? It's got a
specific audience. But through establishing that,
I met another Discord server, which is trans
-focused and information -based and open to all.
And I started talking to that trans woman who
has been running that server for quite a while.
And we have since become sister servers with
different purposes in slightly different audiences.
We would like to grow. So we started another
platform, which is meant to be community run
online space for the, again, trans focus, but
open to all providing information because it's
hard to find. Sometimes you need, you need an
active group of people contributing. socially
to create a space that is open for newcomers
to say, Hey, I need help. It's sometimes it's
daunting to go to a nonprofit organization from
the start, right? So anyway, we have this third
platform, which is meant to serve as a filter
and information page. And if you would share
it to me, I would love to. put the posters and
the standard operating procedures for police
and all of that on there and provide guidance
for more people. Make it into jewelry, Ruby.
Sorry? Make it into jewelry. You want the jewelry?
You want the jewelry, yeah. I want you to make
those operating standards as jewelry. As jewelry.
One standard, one necklace. One standard, one
necklace. There you go. That's a great idea,
I think. Yeah, so there's a whole range of right
now focused on coming out, proud parent, transgender,
gay, and lesbian are the focus for now. And later
we will expand to be more more sexualities, more
identities, and also more allies. And when you're
talking about coming out, please remember that
it's not safe for some people to come. Of course.
Literally. Literally. It can be life threatening.
So just bear that in mind as well. Absolutely.
Yeah. Like, I think... It's really important.
A couple of times when I was thinking about coming
out, I would read online, not everyone, but some
of the guides will say, look, if it's not safe
for you, do not come out. Don't. Safety first
is the most important thing. Absolutely. And
I mean, there's plenty of time to come out. You
got the rest of your life. You know, and just
choose it at a time in your life where you're
safe, you're self -sufficient, you've got a job,
you've got a roof over your head, you know, you're
there. When, when you are self -sufficient, then,
then, then come out if that's, you know, your
safest time. Because then if people reject you
or, you know, That's it's kind of fine. It's
not nice, but it's fine. Yeah Yeah, but is sometimes
you don't want to be in a financial financially
dependent on somebody and then when you come
out to them They're like, okay. Well now I'm
going to withdraw that financial Support, you
know, so yeah, and then that that is that is
really not fine On that, I think we should wrap
up today. Kim, it's been fantastic speaking to
you. Thank you so much for your time out of your
busy schedule, juggling all of the things that
you are juggling to speak to little old us online.
Yeah, no, it's been an absolute pleasure. And
lovely to meet you, Luigi. Likewise. I met you,
so it's been lovely. chatting with you virtually.
And Ray, we've chatted quite a lot, so it's nice
to see you again. Always, always a pleasure.
We'll keep chatting for sure, I think. If you
ever want to come back, please do. And where
can I send people that want to contribute to
Same Love Shoti? Well, we're available online,
so you can go to either our Well, it's not called
Twitter anymore. Our X page, you can go to Instagram.
I think we're most of the time we're on Instagram
and Facebook, or my personal page as well. But
yeah, so anyone who wants to help us to further
this work, because yeah, certain people who shall
remain nameless have caused there to be a lack
of funding, I think globally, but specifically
in in South Africa. So we're always happy for
any form of support that people can offer. Thank
you. Kaleidoscope will also be reaching out in
that capacity. If you want to find Same Love
Toti, you can find them on Facebook at samelove
.toti or Instagram at the same handle. You can
find me, Ruby Ray Liu, at Fire From Heat or TikTok
at Heat From Fire. And you can find Kaleidoscope
on YouTube at Echo Perspectives. You can find
Luigi wherever you can find Kaleidoscope. Living
in a drawer. I take him out when I need him.
That's right, Ruby takes me out for every podcast.
Yeah. Alright, thanks for listening. Bye.