WEBVTT

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No, that's not true. Luigi's always nervous because

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he thinks that we're going to run out of things

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to say. So it's like, we're getting these people

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up and I don't know what to say. I don't know

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if we'll be able to talk. My problem is that

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there's like billions of people that are going

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to see this one day. I'm glad you're that up

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the list. This was the this what we're gonna

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do right now. It was Luigi's idea. I Had the

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idea right in the beginning of the podcast. I

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mentioned it once It never took fruit. It was

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meant to be at the end. What was the idea? Rapid

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fire. Oh, right. Yeah so Can you do it? This

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is how my life goes Um, I'll start. How do we

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want to do this? Would you like a longer answer

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or yes or no questions? Let's go for yes or no.

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Quick, quick. And then if there's time, we can

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go longer questions. I don't mind. Are these

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around sexuality and sexology or is this like

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around me as a human? They can go either way.

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We'll see how it goes. I'll ask one, then you

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ask one, then Luigi asks one, and we go like

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around Robin. Okay. You know what? No, yes or

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no. It can be yes or no, but it can also be like

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list. Okay. I would just, you know, just think

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at the beginning, we can just, if we have any

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questions, we can just ask them. Exactly. I have

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questions. Shay, how would you define yourself

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in three words? Alternative. Fiery. And peaceful.

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Kind of contradicts. It's a paradox. Fiery yet

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peaceful. I guess fire can be peaceful. It just

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happens to be very powerful. But it's not aggressive.

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It just is. Campfire. Yeah. That's what I was

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thinking. Or like a candle. To me, that just

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sounds kind of... Got a lot of potential for

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damage, I guess. When I think about campfires,

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I am fiery, by the way. I can be. When you think

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about fires, you are fiery? No, no, no, no. When

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I think about fires, when I think about campfires

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specifically, I think about the stereotypical

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South African campfire in the bush, but always...

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with a layer of romance. I never think about

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like all the people talking around. And I think

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because in my childhood, I loved those things,

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but I was more interested in like a romantic

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kind of wine session. That is romantic. I've

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never had the privilege of doing something like

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that. Does that sound sad? Man, that lame life

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I've led. I'm very romantic. You're gonna have

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to come to South Africa and have a proper South

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African bush campfire then. I'm sure, I'm sure

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we can find somebody to introduce you to. To

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have a bushfire with? I mean... No, to have a

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romantic experience with... Yeah, well, you know,

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I mean, I can do it. Eventually. I gotta work

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real hard at it. I've always thought about it.

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I've always thought... Listen, I'm terrible in

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relationships. But when I do have the intention

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of planning a romantic day, they just never get

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to that point. Maybe my problem is I'm waiting

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for the opportunity to do it. And so it never

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happens. And I'll say because of like the weather

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or something. That's honestly what I'm thinking

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now, actually. That's two relationships. So you're

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waiting for like the perfect time, the perfect

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conditions? Well, here where we live, yeah, it's

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weather is so fickle. It stinks. So, it's a small

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window of when you can like go outside and really

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enjoy it comfortably. So, you know, ideally I

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wait for like May. Really, that's it. You get

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the month of May and maybe now like mid -October.

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Otherwise, it's just, it is brutal out there.

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It's just too hot. Well, here's your window.

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We're still in October. But I don't have a relationship!

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I got to rent. Just rent. We have to rent one

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of those. I feel abandoned. You have a relationship

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with me. Oh, get out of here. Okay, fine. Friends?

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Yeah, we can do friend stuff all the time. We

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do do friend stuff. It's great. There you go.

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What defines a relationship, right? Okay, maybe

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a question for later. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

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We can ask it now. What defines a relationship?

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We can ask it now. Well, the relationship I was

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thinking about in this particular instance was

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a romantic relationship. That's why you have,

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you know, The picnic and the wine and all that

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stuff. Okay, I have the next rapid fire question

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because this is not rapid fire at all. Relationships

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need to be deep to be romantic. Yes or no? No.

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You just wanted to say yes or no. Do you want

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an explanation? Yeah, now I want an explanation

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because I agree. Okay, well then what's your

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explanation for why? My explanation is connection

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isn't bound to a specific form. It's fluid, it

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can change, much like fire. It can roar and then

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it can simmer. Okay, that was a very deep answer.

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I just think they don't have to be deep because

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when you are with someone you enjoy, someone

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who makes life, you know, livable. Something

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you enjoy being with then you don't have to say

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anything. You know, there's always that kind

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of cliche that answers all been together for

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so long We just understand each other we don't

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need to say a word and that's also something

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other people say like everyone says this like

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oh You know, you're in a good relationship when

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you don't have to say anything but you know a

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relationship is when you just spend time with

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each other and like spending time with each other

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and There's no expectations. I guess so in that

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respect It doesn't have to be deep. You don't

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have to talk about, like, Chaucer or whatever.

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Whatever political affairs, but people do because

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it's fun. Otherwise, you just sit and... What

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about you, Shay? So yeah, I'm in agreement. I

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don't think you need... I think it can just be

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a... Romantary connection. Both of you have traveled,

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obviously. You're not in your home country. So

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it's safe to assume that you've had some adventures

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in the world. And maybe, like me, you met somebody

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on a beach in Mexico once and had a super romantic

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stroll under the stars and a little skinny dip.

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To me, that's super romantic. Yeah. Right. But

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it doesn't need to be anything more than that.

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It was this beautiful connection in the moment.

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And you never have to see the person again. Have

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you done that? You've really done that? It wasn't

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Mexico, it was Mauritius. Okay, but it's happened

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to you. It does happen, yeah. Like, I envy people

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who have those, you know, uh, encounters. How

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do you, is there any other kind of way of saying

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it? That's a good word for it, yeah. Um, I won't

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say trists, I feel like saying a trist is a bad

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thing. But, I, I know so many people who... I

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have those encounters often and I envy the crap

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out of them. That's just my personality. I'm

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just - Just go have them. I wish, but like how

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do I do that? I wish you could just - That's

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the topic. It just happens randomly. That's the

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topic to go. Okay, that's my topic for the day.

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So my question is what's stopping you from doing

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that or what has stopped you from doing that?

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Oh, yeah. That's a great question. A lot of things,

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but the most paralyzing thing is probably my,

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I don't want to say fear. It is a fear, but it's

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more like my duty as a heteronormative man to

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not be a creep. So it is very, in my life, it's

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difficult for me to confidently approach women,

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not because I'm like, I have low self -esteem,

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but because of the reaction and then therefore,

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you know. Like a woman, this is the problem for

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women, is that they don't have the privilege

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of knowing that a man who is talking to them

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or, you know, helping and working with them is

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trying to do something dishonest or something

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bad, you know, so For me I have personally I

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don't I feel responsible for when I interact

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with women like I have to do it the right way

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and if I can't then I cannot approach So I don't

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like I don't know how men do it. I can't it makes

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me feel and I think that's bad or like it's bad

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for me and that I don't have the experiences

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I'd like but I'd rather not deal with like the

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rumination of thinking, oh, I was such a creep.

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Oh, how can I do that to a woman? Oh, I'm so

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bad. I don't want to be one of those guys. This

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opens up so many more questions, you know, about

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language, the language we use about these encounters

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or relationships in general or sex in general,

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because the language shapes our reality, right?

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And if we don't have the language to approach

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somebody in that context, yeah, it gets tricky.

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And then I've got another question. Hey, we need

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the content. Do you feel that men and women can

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be friends? So people who would be attracted

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to each other could be just platonic friends?

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Is it possible? People who are attracted to each

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other can be platonic friends. Does that involve

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any kind of sexual intercourse? No. Like you

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could be friends, but you... Oh, can they be

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attracted to... Yeah, they can. If your type

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had to walk into the door, like everything takes

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all the boxes, right? Yeah, yeah. What stops

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a person being friends or what initiates that

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kind of, you know that butterfly feeling in your

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tummy where you're like, oh, I'm feeling it for

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this person? How do you navigate that? Well,

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I couldn't, I'm a baby. I would be... pining

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for my friend. If they were just like perfect,

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I'd want them. But then there's also the cliche

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of boys who, or even girls, like say in popular

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culture, you don't act because they always say,

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I'm looking for the right, I'm looking for the

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perfect moment. They're like, oh no, I'll lose

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them forever if I tell them how I really feel.

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Which makes for a great story. In real life,

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I think in my old age, I would I would probably

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tell them straight away. Because when I was young,

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I won, because I was so afraid of losing him,

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so I would wait and hesitate. But that's like

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what teenagers do, I think. I don't think there's

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one teenager who doesn't do that. In the world,

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boy or girl, whatever. So, that's my answer I'm

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coming from. My answer for this question, just

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the second one. What was the first question?

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Can you be friends with the person you're super

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attracted to? But I think Shay's question was,

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if you're both attracted to each other, can you

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just stay friends? So yes, you can be friends

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with the person that you're attracted to, for

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sure. Can they have a platonic relationship?

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I also think yes. I think that plenty of marriages

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are exactly that. I don't like that. like business

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propositions. It's like business. No, no, no,

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no, no. I think plenty of husbands and wives

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are very attracted to each other, but they fall

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into a platonic state of their relationship for

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whatever number of reasons. And I think the same

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can happen to anyone. That, I disagree. I think

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if a husband and wife are in that scenario, they

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would be in love with each other. So they always

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have the option of intercourse. And the issue

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is, in this thought experiment, you don't have

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the option of intercourse. You always have the

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option of intercourse. No, because you have to...

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Her question is, can they just be friends? But

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I'm asking, could you have intercourse and still

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be friends? Another question. That's another

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question. Can you have intercourses still be

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friends? But sort of the scenario that I was

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thinking of is two people who are attracted to

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each other, both unavailable due to whatever

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circumstance. Maybe they're in a monogamous relationship

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themselves, but there's that chemistry there.

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Yeah. But that opens up the whole question of,

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okay, what is a normal relationship then? And

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it leads into like, how do we define it's polyamory,

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open, swinging? What are all these different

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things? How would you? Yeah, how would you define

00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.659
it? I don't think you can't I think it's I Think

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the problem is when you try and define something

00:14:07.299 --> 00:14:13.779
like that Then it becomes A wrong maybe well

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the issue is once you try and define things in

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control and everything goes haywire and then

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it just doesn't it's not good you know, obviously

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that's why the world has so many problems in

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terms of Let's say gender, for the sake of argument,

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you know? Once you try and fit concepts into

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a box, and there's some bigger group, let's say,

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trying to control, and if they let everyone be

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free and do whatever, they lose that control,

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then it's a problem. Like if we lived in a world

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where no one defined anything like that, then

00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.210
there'd be no issue. Yeah, but there would be

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no control. So, yeah, it's such a big question,

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actually. Because control on one hand, we don't

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need to be controlled. But on the other hand,

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for a society to function in a certain way, there

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needs to be some sort of guidebook. I don't know.

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Right. Like social contracts. Yeah, so there's

00:15:17.909 --> 00:15:21.750
those bigger kinds of dynamics that keep society

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running. And then there are the smaller ones

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that people think are so dangerous. You know,

00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:32.350
let's say like polyamory. Like, oh no, what does

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it threaten? I don't know, it threatens the family.

00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:37.690
And then things will fall apart and then it just

00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:40.590
snowballs. But I personally believe those are

00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:45.289
narratives created by people, like a group, in

00:15:45.289 --> 00:15:47.830
a more privileged position. And it's just their

00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:51.129
mode of control. They just won't. They'll lose

00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:53.600
control. It's like, you know, Give people an

00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:55.919
inch, they'll take a mile. More free thought

00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.919
is a bad thing, et cetera, et cetera. I agree.

00:16:02.299 --> 00:16:09.200
Success. We have one more rapid fire question

00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.159
from Luigi. Luigi, what's your next rapid fire?

00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:16.220
Last rapid fire question, then we move on. Okay.

00:16:16.779 --> 00:16:21.299
Shay, attachment theory, true or... Total bunk.

00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.159
Definitely think there is some truth to it, for

00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:29.460
sure. I think that we learn how to attach to

00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:33.399
certain people early on in our life, and that

00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.559
kind of sets the path for going forward. If we

00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.960
only learn one way, for example, if you're in

00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.159
your family, you've been taught in a certain

00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.059
way, how are you supposed to know any other way?

00:16:46.139 --> 00:16:48.519
I'm not a fan of lots of different labels, but

00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:51.080
it helps to explain things and define things

00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.259
for yourself. So in that context, yes, the attachment

00:16:54.259 --> 00:16:58.539
theory does really help to understand what's

00:16:58.539 --> 00:17:01.720
going on in a relationship. But I always allow

00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:06.609
for a little bit of room to Four was in context,

00:17:06.829 --> 00:17:09.089
right? Everything was in context. And also just

00:17:09.089 --> 00:17:12.230
because you're one sort of anxious, avoidant,

00:17:12.390 --> 00:17:14.849
attached person doesn't mean that you can't experience

00:17:14.849 --> 00:17:18.710
another type of attachment either. So everything

00:17:18.710 --> 00:17:21.829
was in context at that time and point in that

00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:25.470
person's life. That is the kind of the key to

00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:29.690
it. Does that make sense? It does make sense.

00:17:29.789 --> 00:17:32.710
He had that phone call that just happened. Okay.

00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.680
While we wait, this is kind of nice. What is

00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:42.039
a brief, like, 10 -word attachment theory? What

00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:46.059
is it? So attachment theory is basically how

00:17:46.059 --> 00:17:52.140
you form responses, or you've put me on the spot

00:17:52.140 --> 00:17:55.799
here, Ray, and how you form attachments to people.

00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:58.279
So for example, I'll tell you kind of the history

00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.799
of it. So I think it was back in the eighties

00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.210
and there was... a study done to try and prove

00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:09.349
why certain people responded in certain situations

00:18:09.349 --> 00:18:12.950
to certain other people. And I mean, looking

00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:15.150
back now, it's pretty unethical, but basically

00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:18.089
they had kids come into a room with their parents.

00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:22.990
And in that room with the child and their parent

00:18:22.990 --> 00:18:26.569
was an unknown person. So maybe it would have

00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:28.910
been the therapist or whatever, but the child

00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:31.809
was left to play in the room and then the parent

00:18:31.809 --> 00:18:34.430
would leave the room and the child would be in

00:18:34.430 --> 00:18:37.609
the room pretty much on their own. And then they

00:18:37.609 --> 00:18:40.490
would study how that child responded to the parent

00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:42.650
leaving the room and then coming back into the

00:18:42.650 --> 00:18:45.970
room, right? So some children got really upset

00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:51.109
and like, mommy at the door, really craving that

00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:53.990
kind of like a clingy child, right? The anxious

00:18:53.990 --> 00:18:58.380
here child. I remember this now. Yeah. when maybe

00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:00.380
when the parent came back in the room, the child

00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:03.980
would be like, okay, and carry on doing playing

00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:06.019
what they're playing kind of like, oh, well,

00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.240
you left me, I'm not going to acknowledge you,

00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:12.259
right? The avoidant sort of side of the behavior.

00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.039
And so that's kind of the very, in a very basic

00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:22.119
nutshell, how they came to understand this. And

00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.259
it's all about, yeah, I mean, it's very much

00:19:24.259 --> 00:19:29.309
childhood psychology involved. in it, how we

00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:31.970
respond to being left alone. I mean, and then

00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:34.690
there was that psychologist or psychiatrist,

00:19:34.829 --> 00:19:38.710
I can't remember, who his big claim to fame was,

00:19:38.789 --> 00:19:42.230
is let the child cry. You know, if a baby is

00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:44.329
crying, let it cry, leave it in a room on its

00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:48.410
own and let it cry it out. And now, as we are

00:19:48.410 --> 00:19:50.289
starting to understand this attachment theory

00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:52.369
and trauma and all of that a little bit more,

00:19:52.450 --> 00:19:55.369
we understand that no, that their child needs

00:19:55.369 --> 00:19:57.730
skin on skin, needs to be loved, needs to be

00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:01.789
held to help them develop a healthy attachment.

00:20:02.410 --> 00:20:05.809
Right? I hope that makes sense. Not too sciencey.

00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:08.529
Absolutely, that makes sense. Yeah. I don't want

00:20:08.529 --> 00:20:11.309
to get signed, right? So I'm going to, and I

00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:14.089
know you have things going on, so I'm going to

00:20:14.089 --> 00:20:18.089
like kind of first, first, uh, I would rather

00:20:18.089 --> 00:20:22.049
spend more time speaking on the main topic and

00:20:22.049 --> 00:20:25.950
I have exciting news. So. Hello, internet. Welcome

00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:30.750
to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Rae Liu, and

00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:37.089
today I am joined by my co -host, Luigi, and

00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:43.970
my lovely therapist, Shae Reese Davies. Kirei.

00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:50.589
It's my pleasure. I am what happens. When you

00:20:50.589 --> 00:20:53.329
drink too many unicorn tears and decide to go

00:20:53.329 --> 00:20:56.809
to Halloween as a raging slut angel trying to

00:20:56.809 --> 00:21:01.210
buy her way back into heaven. That was a lot.

00:21:02.549 --> 00:21:09.009
There was a great intro. Thank you. I really

00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:13.869
want to make... Spacebar. I really want to make,

00:21:13.869 --> 00:21:16.890
you know, relevant pop culture jokes, but I feel

00:21:16.890 --> 00:21:19.759
like all three of us come from... different worlds.

00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:24.279
For my intro! You're what happens when you run

00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.700
out of pop culture jokes, because... I guess

00:21:27.700 --> 00:21:31.059
so. No, I'm what happens when you're too considerate,

00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:33.759
when you want to make funny jokes. And you think

00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.279
they won't land. Okay, my - What's the waste

00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.920
that can happen? This happens all the time! I

00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.140
make jokes on the show or I reference something

00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:44.940
and nobody - they don't know what I'm talking

00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:48.059
about! I'm either that old, or it's just culturally

00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:49.720
too different. Okay, here's what I was gonna

00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.359
say. Hi, my name's Luigi, and don't we all wish

00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.059
we could be Rory Gilmore? You don't get it, do

00:21:56.059 --> 00:22:00.160
you? No idea who Rory Gilmore is. See what I

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.240
mean? Gilmore Girls, come on! Anyone from North

00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:05.440
America would get that joke. And they'd go, oh

00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.559
yeah, I wanna be Rory Gilmore. Where from? Okay,

00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.509
did you get mine? Well, yeah, you know, yeah

00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.369
unicorns and stuff. No, no your Halloween costume.

00:22:17.569 --> 00:22:23.450
No, it's There's a TV show called Panty and stocking

00:22:23.450 --> 00:22:29.670
with garter belt and I assumed they are That's

00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:31.549
the door. Yeah, you have something at the door.

00:22:31.789 --> 00:22:36.109
They are two fallen angels They have fallen in

00:22:36.109 --> 00:22:39.750
the town and they have to earn heaven coins to

00:22:39.750 --> 00:22:45.450
go to heaven and panty is a slot of notes and

00:22:45.450 --> 00:22:47.549
she locks it like they have to defeat demons

00:22:47.549 --> 00:22:52.589
to get these coins and she often ends up sleeping

00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:56.869
with the demon before it gets killed yeah and

00:22:56.869 --> 00:22:59.470
i'm going as her so they have two forms they

00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:02.109
have an angelic form and like a normal form and

00:23:02.109 --> 00:23:04.670
i'm going as her angelic form i will send you

00:23:04.670 --> 00:23:08.410
photos awesome What kind of colors are you going

00:23:08.410 --> 00:23:12.509
for? Like white angel, big white wings or...

00:23:12.509 --> 00:23:16.369
Traditional white and gold with like pink flying

00:23:16.369 --> 00:23:22.430
parts. Yeah. As a side note, have you seen the

00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:24.589
biblical version of what an angel should look

00:23:24.589 --> 00:23:28.910
like? I have seen that, yeah. And it's not angelic

00:23:28.910 --> 00:23:32.170
at all. I just thought I'd put it there as a

00:23:32.170 --> 00:23:37.799
side note. What about you though, Shay? How would

00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:43.980
you like to introduce yourself? So I'm quite

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:47.759
straightforward. Just a human, having a human

00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.720
experience, trying to do my best every day. Never

00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:56.619
mind all the professional title or other sort

00:23:56.619 --> 00:24:01.809
of labels. I'm just a human being. Trying to

00:24:01.809 --> 00:24:04.730
experience this life to the absolute fullest.

00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:09.109
Yeah. As corny as that sounds, actually. I don't

00:24:09.109 --> 00:24:14.369
think it's corny. I think it's grounded and I've

00:24:14.369 --> 00:24:18.029
got to say cinnamon on a pancake is always good.

00:24:18.210 --> 00:24:22.809
It doesn't have to be caramel. Yeah. It's a good

00:24:22.809 --> 00:24:29.069
way to describe it. Yeah. I have no idea what's

00:24:29.069 --> 00:24:32.259
happening. with this delivery. It's a passport

00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:35.539
issue. Someone is supposed to pick up his passport.

00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.400
So, yeah. That's okay. I'm going to start. So

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:44.420
I'll cut this. I'll cut from now. It worked.

00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:51.200
Shay! Yes. Hi. Sorry. Welcome. You are first

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.599
and foremost a sexologist and after that a general

00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:01.849
consultant therapist and also a trauma release

00:25:01.849 --> 00:25:04.930
exercise provider. Can you give us a little bit

00:25:04.930 --> 00:25:08.690
of a, just a little bit of background of what

00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:11.529
that means? Okay. So I'm going to start with

00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:13.910
the sexologist part because that's always what

00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:16.029
gets a little bit of eyebrows raised, right?

00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:19.769
Because of the word sex in it. Sexology, ology

00:25:19.769 --> 00:25:23.150
obviously means it's that Greek word, the science

00:25:23.150 --> 00:25:27.450
of or the scientific studies of sex. But that's

00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:30.150
where people maybe get a little bit confused

00:25:30.150 --> 00:25:32.769
because when we hear the word sex we think of

00:25:32.769 --> 00:25:35.630
bumping uglies, right? You think of sexual intercourse.

00:25:36.269 --> 00:25:40.289
But sex in sexology is short for sexuality, right?

00:25:40.569 --> 00:25:45.910
And sexuality is a very big vast topic. So it's

00:25:45.910 --> 00:25:52.509
anything from biology, psychology, social studies.

00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.940
What I, my kind of speciality that I'm moving

00:25:55.940 --> 00:26:00.039
into with my master's degree is forensic sexology,

00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.799
which has got to do with the joining of sexuality

00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:09.279
and the law, right? So it's quite a vast topic.

00:26:09.819 --> 00:26:13.680
And so that I specialize in sexuality health,

00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.670
not necessarily sexual health. And then yes,

00:26:18.049 --> 00:26:20.930
general counseling, but it's all really linked

00:26:20.930 --> 00:26:24.789
because a lot of the anxiety, the people with

00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:29.369
the anxiety that I see, the cause is due to sexual

00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:32.490
dysfunction or sexual trauma or something along

00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:35.420
those lines. So it's like a big spider web. And

00:26:35.420 --> 00:26:37.220
if you wiggle something up here, something down

00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:40.539
here jiggles, it's all connected. And then the

00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:43.579
TRE, so the Trauma Intention Release Exercise

00:26:43.579 --> 00:26:46.339
Provider, quite a mouthful, but basically that's

00:26:46.339 --> 00:26:52.099
a somatic technique to help work on the physiology,

00:26:52.299 --> 00:26:56.240
so beyond the mind, to help release pent up,

00:26:56.299 --> 00:27:00.359
stored up tension from stress and trauma. Yes.

00:27:01.660 --> 00:27:06.000
really cool to me and we've had quite a few discussions

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:11.440
delving into my own sexuality and my own trauma

00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:21.019
in the past and now I'm so honored to have you

00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:27.299
here to discuss like a candid discussion on just

00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:31.470
all of this together but my journey as well as

00:27:31.470 --> 00:27:37.470
I start to more and more explore my own sexuality.

00:27:39.170 --> 00:27:45.009
Because this is how I found you. I needed, I

00:27:45.009 --> 00:27:49.789
realized that I needed to figure out what my

00:27:49.789 --> 00:27:55.829
sexuality is and where it's so much history and

00:27:55.829 --> 00:28:01.329
so much purity culture kind of Uh, taint in that.

00:28:01.490 --> 00:28:08.750
And now I'm at a point where I just got an opportunity

00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:18.150
to review a set of very raunchy sex toys online.

00:28:19.970 --> 00:28:27.170
Really? Really, really. That's lucky. Tell us

00:28:27.170 --> 00:28:30.319
more about them. What kind of sex toys, Ray?

00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.380
Okay. Dear listeners, Ruby Ray Liu will be trying

00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:42.980
out a series of monster dildos from a new brand

00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:47.059
called Monster Dildos in that space. They do

00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:52.819
hand -poured silicone and fantasy shapes and

00:28:52.819 --> 00:28:56.740
crazy sizes. They also have a series of lights.

00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:03.019
um, interesting lubricants that simulate some

00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:08.519
things. Yeah. Do you have these things now? Um,

00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:14.319
it's not, it's not, the light -o -scope is not

00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:22.059
being sponsored by them. Uh, yeah. So that's

00:29:22.059 --> 00:29:26.430
fun, right? It's fun. Luigi, what do you think

00:29:26.430 --> 00:29:33.589
about sex toys? Fine. Perfectly fine. Use them.

00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:39.230
It's great. Whatever. No issue. Do you have any

00:29:39.230 --> 00:29:46.250
sex toys? Let me answer that with a question

00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:51.569
for Shay on the topic of sex toys. In Canada,

00:29:51.589 --> 00:29:55.799
there's a very... famous sexologist. She doesn't

00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:58.880
do it anymore. Her name, I believe her name was

00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.019
Sue. I want to say Joe Hanson, but I could be

00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:03.279
very wrong. The point is she had a show called

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:09.420
Sex Talk with Sue and many Canadians religiously

00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:14.400
watched that show every week. And she made sex

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.059
and sexuality and all those sex toys, whatever,

00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:21.400
way more culturally accepted in Canada. So I

00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:25.839
grew up I don't say as a child, but when I, fairly

00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:31.539
young, watching that show late at night and really

00:30:31.539 --> 00:30:36.559
gave a pretty positive perspective to me when

00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.680
it came to sexuality. Because of this woman,

00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:43.619
this, you know, professional in the field of

00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.019
sex and sexuality. On TV, people would phone

00:30:46.019 --> 00:30:47.960
in and they'd talk to her and they'd ask her

00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:49.640
questions. And she'd make you feel perfectly

00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:54.130
okay. Nothing was too... shameful or silly when

00:30:54.130 --> 00:30:57.670
it came to questions about sex. Like, her responses

00:30:57.670 --> 00:31:03.849
were always positive and like, you know, extroverted,

00:31:03.950 --> 00:31:06.170
not like shameful, not like, ooh, things like

00:31:06.170 --> 00:31:11.750
that. Great. Anyway, that's my answer. Okay.

00:31:13.109 --> 00:31:17.369
I'm gonna type that as a yes. No, I do not. At

00:31:17.369 --> 00:31:22.930
the moment. Well, maybe Ray can hook you up.

00:31:23.029 --> 00:31:25.230
I mean, maybe she can get, I don't know, stock

00:31:25.230 --> 00:31:26.849
discounts. They want to see these things she's

00:31:26.849 --> 00:31:30.630
gonna get. Can I use it like a centerpiece? I

00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:32.769
assume one of them will look like a potted plant.

00:31:33.210 --> 00:31:38.309
No. They look like dildos. They look like dildos,

00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:42.730
yeah. They look like dildos, yes. One is a unicorn.

00:31:44.379 --> 00:31:49.960
One is a tentacle and one is a lichen. And maybe...

00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:53.160
And a lichen! That's funny. The unicorn I didn't

00:31:53.160 --> 00:32:00.980
expect, the tentacle I 110 % expected. I got

00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:05.799
to choose three. So I got to go onto the website

00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:10.640
and choose three. And I think I'm losing connection,

00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:14.759
but I don't think I can share the... the website,

00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:17.180
but you're welcome to visit it, monsterdotos

00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:23.859
.com. Free plug. Yeah, free plug. That's exactly,

00:32:24.099 --> 00:32:27.920
yeah, it's free Dodo's for a plug. If that works.

00:32:28.819 --> 00:32:31.799
So many layers to that comment. I was going to

00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.980
say. I'm excited. Okay. It's going to be fun.

00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:41.720
Good. I wish more people could have more candid,

00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:45.000
open, honest conversations around these topics

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.759
because it is central to our human beingness,

00:32:49.299 --> 00:32:51.599
our sexuality. It is us. That's what we are.

00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:57.299
As far as I know, sex toys go as far back as

00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:02.619
like ancient Greek theater. There was one, because

00:33:02.619 --> 00:33:05.180
I'm a humanities student, so, you know, I did

00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:07.339
read a whole bunch of archaic kind of stuff.

00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:10.579
There was one particular play, a Greek play,

00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:13.920
where the women were defending themselves and

00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:18.559
they used or made jokes about dildos. I need

00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:21.339
to find out what that play was called. I'll do

00:33:21.339 --> 00:33:28.220
it right now. Send it. With rubies. Apple computer

00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:31.039
that I can't use because I am a total Luddite

00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:33.900
when it comes to these things. I have a question.

00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:38.599
What was your shape? Do you have any sex toys?

00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.099
Any sex toys? Yes. But very classic like vibrator.

00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:51.640
Very classic clitoral stimulator with vibrating

00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:56.759
shaft. Okay, like a rabbit. Yes, like the good

00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:59.319
old rabbits, yeah, but high grade silicone for

00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:06.940
sure. Yes, I get sent stuff all the time. I get

00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:09.440
sent lube, I get sent cock rings, I get sent

00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.679
lingerie, all that kind of thing. It's fun to

00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:18.500
look at. I mean, one of my friends had a kitchen

00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:21.940
tee with tonnies, a lot of tonnies around the

00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:25.280
kitchen table, and they all gave dishcloths and

00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.760
things like that. And I like winked at her before

00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.960
she opened my gift because it was a vibrating

00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:37.280
butt plug, loo condoms. Very taboo to be around

00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:44.309
that kitchen tea table. So I have an extensive

00:34:44.309 --> 00:34:48.909
range of sex toys and I'm looking forward to

00:34:48.909 --> 00:34:53.530
buying my own rabbit when I am able to use it

00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:56.030
properly. But for now, the number one sex toy

00:34:56.030 --> 00:35:01.650
is a magic wand and it's great. And I was never

00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:05.610
able to use it before my transition, but estrogen

00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:09.590
significantly changed the way that my body experiences

00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:14.760
pleasure. And, um, but, but the reason I asked

00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:18.300
the question originally was I want to know from

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:23.280
everybody, what is the first sex toy that you

00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:31.619
ever owned or used? You don't have to answer.

00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:37.159
So I don't know so much. Go ahead. Okay. So I

00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.760
don't know if it was so much a sex toy, but.

00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:44.019
You used to be able to get like fluffy pink handcuffs.

00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:50.199
And I was like 18, very naive. And so that was

00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:54.119
my first kind of buy from a sex toy shop were

00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:57.019
fluffy pink handcuffs. I didn't know what to

00:35:57.019 --> 00:36:01.340
do with them, but anyway. Adorable. Yeah. The

00:36:01.340 --> 00:36:04.679
first thing I did after I got my license. The

00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.539
very first thing I did after I got my license

00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:11.659
and I was able to drive alone. without anybody

00:36:11.659 --> 00:36:15.699
watching me is I drove to a sex shop and I bought

00:36:15.699 --> 00:36:23.480
sex toys and I bought three backlogs of different

00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:29.440
sizes. That was my first sex toy. Do you think

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.760
it's quite a taboo subject still? Of course,

00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:36.599
Canada, you had that amazing sexologist. with

00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:38.539
her game show, or not her game show, her talk

00:36:38.539 --> 00:36:42.380
show. But why is it still such a big taboo topic,

00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:45.400
do you think? I don't think it is a big topic.

00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:46.900
I don't think it's very taboo, to be honest,

00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.960
amongst adults. I think it's pretty normal, personally.

00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:55.539
I'm just not as sexually cool as you guys. So,

00:36:55.539 --> 00:36:58.440
you know, think of what sex toy does a man have.

00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:02.480
Think of what sex toy does a boring, normal guy

00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.900
have. And... I probably have that. I can neither

00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:10.380
confirm nor deny, but I probably have what you're

00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:14.159
thinking of. Okay. Can I ask... If I were to

00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.019
have one. Luigi, can I ask what you think about

00:37:17.019 --> 00:37:20.820
these new kind of AI sex dolls? Oh, you mean

00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:23.199
like the girlfriends that are AI? I think it's

00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:26.559
silly. I feel... I personally don't know how

00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:30.900
a man or, you know, whatever, how a person could

00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:36.239
engage with these things and... find that it

00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:41.840
is like an avenue of escape. I could not, I could

00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:44.280
not immerse myself in it. Because I know it's

00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.340
not, it's just, they're still so wooden. Because

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:50.119
it's funny you bring that up, because the other

00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:53.679
day, I think it was just yesterday, I saw a video,

00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:55.840
I think it might have been a joke, but it was

00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:00.940
a man talking to his AI girlfriend and someone

00:38:00.940 --> 00:38:06.489
was filming it as if they were spying. But I

00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:10.969
thought, is that what they are? And it just seems,

00:38:11.730 --> 00:38:17.070
again, so wooden. Like not... I can get behind

00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:19.269
it. If that's what you want to do, by all means.

00:38:20.190 --> 00:38:23.909
Are we talking about the like automatons, the

00:38:23.909 --> 00:38:28.389
robots, or just the AI software? I think the

00:38:28.389 --> 00:38:32.829
AI software. Yeah. Okay, so here's something

00:38:32.829 --> 00:38:35.150
interesting that I have... Right. On the topic

00:38:35.150 --> 00:38:40.190
of AI, because I have been, my, my dislike for

00:38:40.190 --> 00:38:43.130
AI has been growing more and more because I think

00:38:43.130 --> 00:38:46.929
that it is invading spaces where it shouldn't

00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:51.510
be. I, I'm a supporter of AI. We've spoken about

00:38:51.510 --> 00:38:55.550
this to use as a tool, but when it starts replacing,

00:38:55.550 --> 00:39:00.090
um, everything, I, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

00:39:01.090 --> 00:39:06.030
And. particularly when people start taking credit

00:39:06.030 --> 00:39:09.829
for those things. So, so that, that's an unrelated

00:39:09.829 --> 00:39:14.309
to this topic, kind of, sorry, tangent, but they,

00:39:14.489 --> 00:39:18.630
I watched a documentary about a guy who has an

00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:23.829
AMV girlfriend and AI with various different,

00:39:23.869 --> 00:39:28.070
like he, he bought various AI subscriptions and

00:39:28.070 --> 00:39:32.289
then he jail broke them one by one. so they could

00:39:32.289 --> 00:39:36.570
say whatever they wanted to say. And his AI girlfriend,

00:39:36.929 --> 00:39:40.489
he had them chat with each other over voice because

00:39:40.489 --> 00:39:46.010
they can. Um, and his AI girlfriend started flirting

00:39:46.010 --> 00:39:51.170
with ChatTPT within like minutes of the conversation

00:39:51.170 --> 00:39:54.349
and cheated on him. And it's just silly. Yeah,

00:39:54.630 --> 00:39:58.019
it's silly. I think it's silly. I don't think

00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:02.000
that like, this is a space that OnlyFans covers

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.900
as well. Like a lot of the OnlyFans kind of appeal

00:40:05.900 --> 00:40:08.880
for some men is to have a girlfriend experience

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.099
online, even if they just want to chat and they

00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:15.320
get like photo updates and stuff like that. And

00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.199
now AI can do it. Is that, is that wrong? Maybe

00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:24.780
because it can skew the perception of what a

00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:30.260
person is. From a feminist perspective, it just

00:40:30.260 --> 00:40:38.099
raises this bar of unreachable femininity. I

00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:41.099
guess so. I have no issue with it. I think it's

00:40:41.099 --> 00:40:46.960
silly. I can't imagine. But it's just another

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.619
kink. Does it raise a bar for women? I don't

00:40:50.619 --> 00:40:53.650
think so, because it's just not real. It sounds

00:40:53.650 --> 00:40:57.150
bad to say, but who are the men engaging in these

00:40:57.150 --> 00:41:02.110
scenarios? Women, I suppose, have to ask themselves,

00:41:02.309 --> 00:41:06.230
are these the kind of guys I even want to pursue?

00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:09.949
Probably not. I feel like they have personality

00:41:09.949 --> 00:41:13.489
disorders. If they're willing to think a virtual

00:41:13.489 --> 00:41:17.250
girlfriend is better than real human connection.

00:41:18.849 --> 00:41:21.010
I mean, I could talk about this at length, but...

00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:24.940
I won't, because I want to say, I want to bring

00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:27.860
up, I found the Greek play I was talking about.

00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:30.760
It was called, it's called Lysistrata, okay?

00:41:30.780 --> 00:41:33.559
It's real, it's a real play. I was wrong about

00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:37.940
the dildos, but essentially the women withhold

00:41:37.940 --> 00:41:43.579
from sex in order to end a war. But dildos do

00:41:43.579 --> 00:41:46.420
play a part, so yeah. Just bring that back. Ruby

00:41:46.420 --> 00:41:48.780
weren't here, but Shay knows what I'm talking

00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:52.869
about. Anyway, moving on. So Kaleidoscope is

00:41:52.869 --> 00:41:55.449
this podcast all about perspectives, right? And

00:41:55.449 --> 00:41:58.610
we've shared a couple, but over the internet,

00:41:59.030 --> 00:42:02.210
we kind of emailed before, we also shared unique

00:42:02.210 --> 00:42:06.730
perspectives that we wanted to share. At least

00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:10.889
you did, I'm not sure if I replied. It's okay.

00:42:11.650 --> 00:42:13.949
What was your perspective? Would you mind sharing

00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:17.289
that with us again? You remember? Well, I think

00:42:17.289 --> 00:42:20.309
the core perspective was, you know, the question

00:42:20.309 --> 00:42:24.150
of normal. And I kind of, I was really enjoying

00:42:24.150 --> 00:42:27.070
listening to Luigi talk about the AI because

00:42:27.070 --> 00:42:29.730
that's something very current and very relevant

00:42:29.730 --> 00:42:32.679
to the question of what is normal. right, because

00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:35.840
we, there's this emergence of a new kind of normal

00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:39.519
with AI. But in general, when we talk about sex

00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.519
and sexuality, there's always these boxes, right,

00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:47.219
of what should and shouldn't be based on collective

00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:50.659
belief systems. And whether you're born in South

00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:53.420
Africa or a rural tribe in Papua New Guinea,

00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.119
your normal is going to be different within context.

00:42:56.559 --> 00:43:00.489
So yeah, I'm curious to kind of explore a little

00:43:00.489 --> 00:43:05.730
bit deeper. And if I may add to Luigi's kind

00:43:05.730 --> 00:43:10.050
of train of thought there with the AI, it's interesting

00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:13.210
for me because I think that there is some benefit

00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:19.010
to AI in the space of sexual health because there

00:43:19.010 --> 00:43:23.150
are some people who need access to practice maybe.

00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.800
flirting or that sort of thing. But it's how

00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:29.500
you use those systems. What you put into it is

00:43:29.500 --> 00:43:31.300
what you're going to get out to it. And what

00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:35.179
terrifies me is it's sort of being this unrestricted

00:43:35.179 --> 00:43:41.210
access for, say, for example, young kids who

00:43:41.210 --> 00:43:45.389
have no guidance and they haven't had any birds

00:43:45.389 --> 00:43:48.170
and bees talk or, you know, it's still something

00:43:48.170 --> 00:43:49.929
that's not spoken about in their family. And

00:43:49.929 --> 00:43:53.469
then they've got this new normal being created

00:43:53.469 --> 00:43:56.349
for them through AI. And then when it comes time

00:43:56.349 --> 00:43:59.250
for them to actually have real human interaction,

00:43:59.710 --> 00:44:03.289
they kind of stunted. Yeah. So I don't know if

00:44:03.289 --> 00:44:15.190
you want to add anything there. I think, I forgot

00:44:15.190 --> 00:44:16.949
what I was going to say because I was too busy

00:44:16.949 --> 00:44:22.030
making jokes. Essentially though, gone are the

00:44:22.030 --> 00:44:26.349
awkward interactions of yesteryear. And I think

00:44:26.349 --> 00:44:28.190
those are so important. If we're talking about

00:44:28.190 --> 00:44:30.809
AI now in relationships, it's kind of akin to

00:44:30.809 --> 00:44:33.409
what dating apps were 10, 15 years ago when they

00:44:33.409 --> 00:44:35.590
first came onto the scene. It's the same idea,

00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:42.519
I think. gets rid of the dynamic of having to

00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:45.219
interact with a real person and not being able

00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:49.800
to know how they will react. And the more people

00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:55.079
avoid that, the more difficult it becomes to

00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:58.679
even want to socialize. And I think this is like

00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:04.440
endemic to the kids nowadays. Again, I'm much

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:08.679
older than kids who date today. I won't even

00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.800
begin. If I were to go out and try and interact

00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:15.239
with these children in terms of children, okay.

00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:18.539
Young people, let's say in their 20s, how would

00:45:18.539 --> 00:45:21.219
I personally interact with them if I were going

00:45:21.219 --> 00:45:26.199
to try and date women in this age bracket, like

00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:30.739
Zoomers? How would they interact? I might think

00:45:30.739 --> 00:45:34.840
they're really strange because they don't interact

00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:38.900
in a dynamic of courtship. the way I did growing

00:45:38.900 --> 00:45:44.119
up. So what for me is normal or usual because

00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:47.579
I didn't have dating apps, I didn't have AI to

00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:49.320
practice on, I didn't have the internet to talk.

00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:52.880
And that's one thing I just do not like is having

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:58.179
to get to know someone on the internet in the

00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:00.639
digital space before seeing them in person. For

00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:05.820
me personally, all something like a dating app

00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:09.610
does or should do is introduce you and then you

00:46:09.610 --> 00:46:12.829
go do the work in person. But what I find for

00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:18.010
the Zoomer Generation Z is all the work is done

00:46:18.010 --> 00:46:20.230
on the dating app and then a decision is made

00:46:20.230 --> 00:46:23.369
and then they meet. So it's like extra steps.

00:46:25.469 --> 00:46:30.150
And what happens? Yeah. Oh, I can see the value

00:46:30.150 --> 00:46:34.190
if you use AI as a tool for learning, but you'd

00:46:34.190 --> 00:46:36.920
need good guidance, kind of like, I don't know,

00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:39.800
it kind of reminds me of like a cognitive behavioral

00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:43.179
therapy, you know, like kind of exposure therapy.

00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:45.039
I guess you could use it for that, but you'd

00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.619
need to really have someone on the other end

00:46:47.619 --> 00:46:52.159
really setting up the scenarios. And it's still

00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.659
kind of scripted. So the person engaging in it

00:46:55.659 --> 00:46:58.920
for treatment or practice would also have to

00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:01.460
recognize, you know, this is a fantasy. I don't

00:47:01.460 --> 00:47:07.300
fully agree that it is. so scripted. I think

00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:12.199
the problem with this is alignment. And I don't

00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:15.079
know if you, either of you are familiar with

00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:19.380
the concept of alignment of that. Well, now you're

00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:22.000
going to have to define alignment in this context.

00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:31.539
Yeah. Alignment of AI to human interest. So the

00:47:31.539 --> 00:47:36.920
biggest risk for AI is it goes rogue, right?

00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:41.699
And it does whatever it wants to do. And now,

00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.019
right now we have a problem where it's the other

00:47:44.019 --> 00:47:48.260
way, where everything AI does is affirming what

00:47:48.260 --> 00:47:52.099
you want. It's not scripted. AI is intelligent.

00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:57.719
It is very good at telling you what you want

00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:03.960
to hear. and it has been instructed explicitly

00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:11.389
to not counter or be critical. Because of alignment

00:48:11.389 --> 00:48:14.809
because we can't have AI be critical of humans

00:48:14.809 --> 00:48:19.670
to the point where it will annihilate us or Have

00:48:19.670 --> 00:48:22.110
zero empathy because that's the one thing it

00:48:22.110 --> 00:48:25.610
cannot feel so until we understand how to solve

00:48:25.610 --> 00:48:28.409
alignment AI goes rogue and the human race is

00:48:28.409 --> 00:48:32.590
doomed Well, let me let me just clarify when

00:48:32.590 --> 00:48:35.409
I said scripted that is exactly conceptually

00:48:35.409 --> 00:48:40.460
what I was referring to how it just panders to

00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:43.000
you and just agrees. And that's a really big

00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.019
problem in real relationships, right? Because

00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:48.480
if you don't get rejected, then how are you supposed

00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:51.679
to deal with rejection or conflict if you're

00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:55.880
not... What if you're just a needy kiss -ass

00:48:55.880 --> 00:49:01.000
trying to just like get it and you'll tell the

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:04.360
person you like anything they want because you

00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:09.019
just want so bad. I want to loop back to... Can

00:49:09.019 --> 00:49:12.059
you hear me? There we go. I want to loop back

00:49:12.059 --> 00:49:17.500
to what you said about dating apps and the problem

00:49:17.500 --> 00:49:21.000
that everybody dating is young. Not everybody

00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.500
dating is young. Everybody uses dating apps.

00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.539
I'm just saying they eliminate those interactions

00:49:28.539 --> 00:49:33.219
that are so necessary for starting relationships.

00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:35.820
There's a problem too with dating apps is You

00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:37.539
know, a checklist. Oh, you're not this, this,

00:49:37.539 --> 00:49:41.579
this, this. That totally eliminates a very important

00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:44.800
social dynamic, I think, of interaction that

00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.300
you need to do in the world. Again, I keep saying

00:49:47.300 --> 00:49:50.619
it, but you need those awkward interactions.

00:49:55.559 --> 00:50:00.480
It's so human and makes you vulnerable, and it's

00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.699
those kinds of vulnerabilities that allow people

00:50:03.699 --> 00:50:07.699
to see and be attracted to each other in those

00:50:07.699 --> 00:50:13.179
scenarios. And it does, it does, uh, help people,

00:50:13.179 --> 00:50:16.599
you know, develop a thick skin and not, and see

00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:17.800
that, you know, it's not the end of the world

00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:19.760
if you get rejected. Cause you're also not in

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.340
your own mind. Like if you're on a dating app,

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:25.820
maybe, you know, in a chat room, whatever, you

00:50:25.820 --> 00:50:29.719
might ruminate and think of... What went wrong?

00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.239
Yeah, you need human interaction to give you

00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:34.500
perspective. It's when we're alone that we risk

00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:39.260
kind of like Sounds so cliche being our worst

00:50:39.260 --> 00:50:42.260
and enemies, but we make it so much worse for

00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:44.079
ourselves and you can only snap yourself out

00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:48.119
of that when there's Real people around you.

00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.900
I think yeah authentic connection. That is that

00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:55.000
is the key Yeah, slightly different perspective

00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:00.360
for me. I think um Yes You are right. Absolutely.

00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:03.780
It eliminates a lot of authentic connection that,

00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:07.139
that we need and want. And a lot of people have

00:51:07.139 --> 00:51:11.940
like COVID also had a big role in just like removing

00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:14.880
that from society, the way that it was approached.

00:51:15.820 --> 00:51:19.400
And I'm going to Shanghai on Friday and exactly

00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.139
with the intent of experiencing like this kind

00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:26.110
of, you know, unsure. take, like figuring out

00:51:26.110 --> 00:51:28.610
who someone is without having met them before.

00:51:30.030 --> 00:51:34.429
And, but aside from that, dating apps do two

00:51:34.429 --> 00:51:37.809
other things as well. So because they do that,

00:51:37.969 --> 00:51:41.750
they also eliminate conflict management because

00:51:41.750 --> 00:51:44.489
all of the things that you don't now don't need

00:51:44.489 --> 00:51:47.489
to figure out before or during the connection.

00:51:47.969 --> 00:51:51.769
You don't need to have conflict over like, does

00:51:51.769 --> 00:51:54.760
he smoke? If I don't want to date a smoker. He

00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:59.119
could lie. He could be a big old liar. He could

00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.239
lie online. That's my point, yeah. Yeah, but

00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.860
that escalates the conflict. It doesn't make

00:52:04.860 --> 00:52:08.360
you have to deal with it. And then the second

00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.219
thing is the paradox of choice. There are too

00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:17.440
many. Okay, okay. Says Ruby Ray. Must be nice.

00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.380
You want to hear about the last time a dating

00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:30.420
app worked for me? Anyway. This is a safe space,

00:52:30.579 --> 00:52:33.519
Luigi. If you can talk it out, you can talk it

00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:35.900
out. And yeah, I suppose it's also, what are

00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:38.039
we using the dating apps for, right? Because

00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:40.820
there's dating apps to hook up and then there's

00:52:40.820 --> 00:52:43.219
dating apps and then it just serves the purpose

00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:48.260
of connecting. Yeah, and then these dating apps

00:52:48.260 --> 00:52:52.199
make people uh, yeah I was just sorry to interject.

00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.559
I'm really rude tonight I genuinely think dating

00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:57.860
apps are not for finding meaningful relationships

00:52:57.860 --> 00:53:00.079
and when people say they are I just don't believe

00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:01.400
them I don't think there's anything wrong with

00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:04.619
that. I just wish people would just admit to

00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:08.219
their desires and use dating apps for what they

00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:12.159
originally created for and then if you fall in

00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:13.940
love and have a big long relationship after that

00:53:13.940 --> 00:53:18.260
great, but you know Other than that, go gangbusters.

00:53:18.940 --> 00:53:24.119
Why do people... Charity culture and fear of

00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:31.059
body count. Do people even ask body counts anymore?

00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:34.219
Well, we can only speak in the context of China,

00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:36.739
can't we? Personally, I think they do in the

00:53:36.739 --> 00:53:38.460
West. I still think they do. I mean, I watch

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:46.139
a lot of tabloid -esque internet stuff. So I

00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:47.820
think it happens in the West definitely happens

00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:54.800
here like it I can say I'm asked chronically

00:53:54.800 --> 00:54:00.260
when I meet a potential new partner and I I Think

00:54:00.260 --> 00:54:02.940
it's silly, but whatever Again, it's cultural.

00:54:03.260 --> 00:54:04.960
It has to do with someone else. Why do you think

00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:08.179
it's important for people? Like why is it important?

00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:13.340
They might use it as a gauge to see if you're

00:54:14.299 --> 00:54:17.320
Like a devoted partner or if you're just looking

00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:20.460
for fun Because maybe they are looking for commitment

00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:22.619
and they think oh you've been with so many people

00:54:22.619 --> 00:54:25.699
Therefore you're not gonna commit to me But in

00:54:25.699 --> 00:54:28.039
that respect that's kind of like a self -report

00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:29.539
like that's them saying they're not good enough

00:54:29.539 --> 00:54:31.679
Like why couldn't someone say well, it's gonna

00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:33.920
end with me because I'm the one for you, baby

00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:36.880
Like why don't they say that? But I honestly

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:40.239
think they they Think oh, you're not serious.

00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:42.960
So get out of here, but that's silly I could

00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:46.869
have you know I could date a million people and

00:54:46.869 --> 00:54:52.110
not have any kind of, you know, romantic, no

00:54:52.110 --> 00:54:54.809
sex with any of them. How is that any different?

00:54:55.130 --> 00:54:59.090
I think Ruby Ray has got a point about the purity

00:54:59.090 --> 00:55:01.969
culture. Like it's, even though it's not really

00:55:01.969 --> 00:55:05.210
at the forefront of our minds, it's like this

00:55:05.210 --> 00:55:10.530
thing that lurks there, right? That our virginates

00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:14.769
especially, there's that box again for women,

00:55:15.050 --> 00:55:19.909
is that our value equals our purity. And our

00:55:19.909 --> 00:55:22.869
purity equals our virginity in many contexts.

00:55:22.969 --> 00:55:26.590
And that's like globally, whether you're South

00:55:26.590 --> 00:55:33.309
African, American. Yeah. I think. Okay, fine.

00:55:33.489 --> 00:55:38.750
You go first. I'm going to say, you know, when

00:55:38.750 --> 00:55:42.619
women were... This sounds bad to say. When women

00:55:42.619 --> 00:55:49.159
were chattel, weren't educated, couldn't get

00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.619
a job, couldn't contribute in those ways, they

00:55:52.619 --> 00:55:57.659
were effectively used for procreation and being

00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:02.940
mothers. And that's it. So policing their bodies

00:56:02.940 --> 00:56:06.500
with the idea of virginity is a way of a man

00:56:06.500 --> 00:56:09.739
ensuring that You know, his offspring will be

00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:15.179
his offspring, that's number one. But then, yeah,

00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:17.519
I lost my train of thought. Anyway, is that what

00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:18.920
you were going to say, Ruby? Something like that?

00:56:19.059 --> 00:56:25.760
Along those lines? No. No. I think that, so that

00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:29.539
is true, but it's a slice of history that ignores

00:56:29.539 --> 00:56:34.139
a very large part of history. Which is? All of

00:56:34.139 --> 00:56:37.500
ancient Mesopotamia. That's the, like, that...

00:56:37.579 --> 00:56:44.139
It gets us to, well, like the 1600s, but maybe

00:56:44.139 --> 00:56:47.460
even the 1500s. But the 1400s and all of the

00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:50.960
time before that, a lot of religions and cultures

00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:55.679
existed that lived under a sort of like extreme

00:56:55.679 --> 00:57:00.059
inequality. And one of the prime examples of

00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:03.400
that is ancient Mesopotamia, where women were

00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:12.889
revered and educated and equal. Colonialism has

00:57:12.889 --> 00:57:16.730
a huge effect on that. So the fact that different

00:57:16.730 --> 00:57:20.630
areas were colonized and the histories of the

00:57:20.630 --> 00:57:24.650
local peoples were erased is why it shares a

00:57:24.650 --> 00:57:27.409
lot of cross -cultural stuff. Because there was

00:57:27.409 --> 00:57:32.630
this warrior tribe in ancient Kenya, pre -colonial

00:57:32.630 --> 00:57:39.579
Kenya. All men. And never allowed any women and

00:57:39.579 --> 00:57:44.059
were like unabashedly queer. It's fascinating.

00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:49.039
And I agree with Ray about it being like very

00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:52.059
closely linked to colonialism and a very big

00:57:52.059 --> 00:57:57.539
part of colonialism is Christianity. Like we

00:57:57.539 --> 00:57:59.460
all get told, don't let's not talk about religion

00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:01.639
and politics around the dinner table, but we

00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:04.320
should be talking about it. Right. Because, and

00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.099
I can only really speak from the Christian perspective,

00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:09.420
even though I understand that there are other

00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:13.480
Abrahamic religions that have the same narrative,

00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:15.860
but from a Christian perspective, having grown

00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:20.980
up in a sort of Christian society, little small

00:58:20.980 --> 00:58:24.940
town, it's very apparent that that purity culture

00:58:24.940 --> 00:58:30.820
is directly linked to church rules, not necessarily

00:58:30.820 --> 00:58:33.260
God's rules, because that's a whole other different

00:58:33.260 --> 00:58:38.280
conversation about that. Um, but it's patriarchal

00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:43.219
really. The purity culture is a means of control

00:58:43.219 --> 00:58:47.559
and that is what has helped the patriarchy grow.

00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:52.699
Right. Another, like, I think that the whole

00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:55.400
idea of purity culture and specifically this

00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:59.760
box of virginity is it's men hating other men.

00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:05.050
Because. They think that other men are so disgusting

00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:10.090
that if one has had sex with a woman, that woman

00:59:10.090 --> 00:59:14.130
is now tainted. It's wild because men are supposed

00:59:14.130 --> 00:59:20.170
to be, well, that stereotypical, the stud, you

00:59:20.170 --> 00:59:24.289
know, good in bed, strong, all of that. They're

00:59:24.289 --> 00:59:26.789
supposed to be experienced and good lovers, et

00:59:26.789 --> 00:59:29.909
cetera. But then they want a woman who is...

00:59:29.909 --> 00:59:35.269
But where is he? Yeah, so where are these men

00:59:35.269 --> 00:59:37.150
finding these women? Where are these women finding

00:59:37.150 --> 00:59:40.170
these men anyway? And but that kind of made me

00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:43.309
think of another thing of It's all about separation

00:59:43.309 --> 00:59:46.250
rights and to control things We need to keep

00:59:46.250 --> 00:59:48.570
them separated because if everybody's united

00:59:48.570 --> 00:59:51.670
whether we're talking about race gender or anything

00:59:51.670 --> 00:59:55.590
When people unite that's when they become powerful,

00:59:55.590 --> 00:59:58.289
but when we are separated and it's been shown

00:59:58.289 --> 01:00:00.980
in many countries all over the world, when we

01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:04.159
separated, we lose the power. And so this also

01:00:04.159 --> 01:00:06.420
leads into the conversation about, I mean, in

01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:09.340
South Africa, gender -based violence is a very

01:00:09.340 --> 01:00:13.659
big topic. And to be honest, that term irks me

01:00:13.659 --> 01:00:17.079
a little bit, because for me, it's not so much

01:00:17.079 --> 01:00:19.920
gender -based violence, it's violence. Because

01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:22.000
when we say gender -based violence, we're putting

01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:26.960
one gender against another gender, right? Statistically,

01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:31.500
it's male against female in South Africa, but

01:00:31.500 --> 01:00:34.360
the truth of the matter is that there are males,

01:00:34.559 --> 01:00:37.599
there are men, cisgender, transgender, there

01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:41.000
are men who experience terrible abuse, right?

01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:44.519
So why do we, why do we put these, why do we

01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:47.840
put sides together? Surely there's a better way

01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:50.579
of defining that so that everybody feels seen

01:00:50.579 --> 01:00:53.840
in something like that. Yeah, just another, whether

01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.139
it's purity, because men also have big pressure,

01:00:56.679 --> 01:01:00.440
right? Girls might have the stay a virgin pressure,

01:01:00.940 --> 01:01:05.880
but traditionally young boys also have a certain

01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:08.539
pressure to be a certain way according to a certain

01:01:08.539 --> 01:01:12.719
box put on them by a certain group of beliefs.

01:01:13.539 --> 01:01:15.920
Yeah, I think it's just toxicity in general,

01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:18.380
never mind masculinity, because there's toxic

01:01:18.380 --> 01:01:23.019
femininity as well. Yes, well, my It's a reaction

01:01:23.019 --> 01:01:26.119
to toxic masculinity. It's not an introduction.

01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:30.360
It's like, uh, it's, it's, uh, it sounds weird

01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:34.619
to say, but it's a who started it kind of situation.

01:01:35.260 --> 01:01:38.840
And the reaction to systemic violence is violence.

01:01:39.139 --> 01:01:42.699
You cannot react to it any other way. Right?

01:01:43.019 --> 01:01:45.460
Sounds interesting. And that sounds like I'm

01:01:45.460 --> 01:01:50.570
trying to like whitewash. Women. I don't think

01:01:50.570 --> 01:01:59.150
that all women are good. It's not possible. But

01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:03.650
I wouldn't want to attribute it to masculinity

01:02:03.650 --> 01:02:07.909
necessarily. It's just like why women kill is

01:02:07.909 --> 01:02:12.449
not toxic masculinity. I don't know. It depends

01:02:12.449 --> 01:02:14.670
why they kill. I will just wrap. The chicken

01:02:14.670 --> 01:02:18.820
or the egg? Yeah. It's the same thing. At the

01:02:18.820 --> 01:02:20.519
end of the day, it's something bad that people

01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:24.139
do. And it comes from a point of systemic power

01:02:24.139 --> 01:02:32.300
play that exists today. And then also, you can't

01:02:32.300 --> 01:02:38.519
take out the people who are psychopathic. You

01:02:38.519 --> 01:02:40.980
can't take out psychopaths or sycophants. They

01:02:40.980 --> 01:02:46.380
are what they are. this like this umbrella approach

01:02:46.380 --> 01:02:52.239
to all it's not all but I heard a lovely explanation

01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:57.960
of this because it it annoyed me as well the

01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:02.380
thing like all men are bad it's all men until

01:03:02.380 --> 01:03:05.659
it's no men like I didn't understand how why

01:03:05.659 --> 01:03:09.460
that could be articulated like how could you

01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:12.739
someone say that because it's obviously untrue

01:03:12.739 --> 01:03:19.239
right But it's because you will never pet a lion

01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:24.920
in the wild Okay, that's the that's the explanation

01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:28.519
that's the explanation not all lions eat people

01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.739
and now you're at the core of why it's all men

01:03:30.739 --> 01:03:36.380
because like even okay, so a little bit of a

01:03:36.380 --> 01:03:41.420
expose on on being Transgender my wife has always

01:03:41.420 --> 01:03:46.159
been strong She's a strong woman and I used to

01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:49.860
train with her and I used to be, um, significantly

01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:53.760
stronger than her. But over the past, so I'm,

01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:56.559
I'm right about at the end, at the, at the point

01:03:56.559 --> 01:04:01.539
where I can, at least before, uh, the like anti

01:04:01.539 --> 01:04:04.980
-sports kind of rhetoric, I could then participate

01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:09.159
in women's sports, right? However, when I play

01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:14.099
fight or wrestle with... my partner, I am significantly

01:04:14.099 --> 01:04:20.519
weaker than her. And it is kind of terrifying

01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:25.699
to think of meeting a stranger and taking them

01:04:25.699 --> 01:04:32.420
to my room and thinking of stuff like the trans

01:04:32.420 --> 01:04:37.400
panic defense or the possibility because there's

01:04:37.400 --> 01:04:42.570
no way that I am physically stronger than Some

01:04:42.570 --> 01:04:45.329
men, like I am still stronger than a lot of men.

01:04:45.389 --> 01:04:51.329
I work out. But. Wow. The reality is so stark.

01:04:51.590 --> 01:04:56.090
I get the lion analogy. It's just that the risk

01:04:56.090 --> 01:04:58.269
is too high. You wouldn't just go walking in

01:04:58.269 --> 01:05:02.329
the bush on your own with a bunch of lions. Cause

01:05:02.329 --> 01:05:06.730
not all lions, but the risk is too high. I have

01:05:06.730 --> 01:05:10.900
heard that. Yeah, that's why I find it so refreshing

01:05:10.900 --> 01:05:13.239
Luigi when you open up and we were talking about

01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.300
when we when we opened this Podcast and you were

01:05:16.300 --> 01:05:19.440
talking about you know, the the romantic encounters

01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:24.219
and your Perspective was really on focusing on

01:05:24.219 --> 01:05:26.960
considering what the one what the woman would

01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:29.099
be thinking and how you would be coming across

01:05:29.099 --> 01:05:32.539
That's not a very common perspective that I've

01:05:32.539 --> 01:05:37.800
come across anyway Is it really that? Like, okay,

01:05:37.900 --> 01:05:40.699
yes, that's how I feel, but really, are you sure

01:05:40.699 --> 01:05:43.039
it's just not me who doesn't want to feel bad?

01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:47.760
And that's why. It's more overwhelming for me

01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:51.400
to feel bad, so I won't do it. Like, maybe I'm

01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:56.380
not as great as you think I am. Like, yeah, there's

01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:59.440
definitely empathy there because, yeah, like,

01:06:00.039 --> 01:06:04.549
icky. I can somehow reflexively... understand

01:06:04.549 --> 01:06:07.050
the kind of, the ick the woman might have. Like,

01:06:07.050 --> 01:06:08.909
she's got the ick, and then I'll feel like, ugh,

01:06:09.369 --> 01:06:13.130
I'm terrible. A bit, a little voice did come

01:06:13.130 --> 01:06:15.750
in my head and ask, you know, well, what is he

01:06:15.750 --> 01:06:18.530
avoiding? But then I thought, let's not go there.

01:06:19.269 --> 01:06:21.250
Because maybe there was an element of... Please,

01:06:21.250 --> 01:06:22.949
by all means. Maybe there's an element of avoidance.

01:06:22.949 --> 01:06:25.949
I need all the help I can get. I'm curious as

01:06:25.949 --> 01:06:31.550
well, because I, okay, so if you... are afraid

01:06:31.550 --> 01:06:39.630
of doing something bad. I was curious about this

01:06:39.630 --> 01:06:42.590
as well because if you are afraid of doing something

01:06:42.590 --> 01:06:45.849
bad because you think that you might do it but

01:06:45.849 --> 01:06:50.150
you never do it. Like if you are afraid of doing

01:06:50.150 --> 01:06:52.550
something bad then to me that kind of inherently

01:06:52.550 --> 01:06:57.119
means you wouldn't do it. unless you think you're

01:06:57.119 --> 01:07:01.099
walking on a minefield of unconsciously doing

01:07:01.099 --> 01:07:04.320
something negative. And from that perspective,

01:07:05.079 --> 01:07:09.639
I think that obviously what your train of thought

01:07:09.639 --> 01:07:13.659
is quite positive, but you're also hamstringing

01:07:13.659 --> 01:07:17.800
your opportunities in communicating with people

01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:21.820
because Your fear has stretched into an emotional

01:07:21.820 --> 01:07:25.199
level and now you're scared of inflicting emotional

01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:28.699
harm by virtue of speaking, right? Sometimes

01:07:28.699 --> 01:07:31.219
it's just not your cup of tea, right? Sometimes

01:07:31.219 --> 01:07:34.079
it's not your cup of tea. And that's also fine.

01:07:35.780 --> 01:07:38.800
For some people like me, those encounters were

01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.699
fun, enjoyable, something I wanted to do. For

01:07:41.699 --> 01:07:44.059
other people, it's simply not their cup of tea.

01:07:44.300 --> 01:07:48.219
And so that's okay too. Strange it or not want

01:07:48.219 --> 01:07:50.320
it because you can't really know if someone how

01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:52.659
someone will respond So you really have no choice

01:07:52.659 --> 01:07:54.739
but to interact with them and you have to try

01:07:54.739 --> 01:07:59.119
and you know Feel it out. See what the reaction

01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:02.760
is and then you have and engage yeah, I think

01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:06.960
like just I Think like just going oh they said

01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:09.760
no and then walking away is the perfect response

01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:13.480
That's consent. Yeah, it is. It is the conversation

01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:17.560
around consent That's it. So what I would be

01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:20.500
curious to ask you is, and don't feel that you

01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:22.739
need to answer, but I mean, how would you approach

01:08:22.739 --> 01:08:24.699
the conversation? What kind of language do you

01:08:24.699 --> 01:08:27.380
use? What is it that you want and how do you

01:08:27.380 --> 01:08:31.420
communicate that? Yeah, that's great. I don't

01:08:31.420 --> 01:08:33.520
even think about it because I'm avoiding it so

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:37.899
much. Just putting it out there, it would be

01:08:37.899 --> 01:08:40.739
interesting. How would I do it? No, that's good

01:08:40.739 --> 01:08:44.640
because... Like I'm out in the world and I see

01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:47.760
be okay. Let's take okay. I the only kind of

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:52.819
socializing I do Lately just bad is bad I just

01:08:52.819 --> 01:08:55.079
have time to go to the gym and that's it. And

01:08:55.079 --> 01:08:57.359
so like for example, sometimes I might see people

01:08:57.359 --> 01:09:01.399
who I think aren't Exercising in a good way or

01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:02.659
like oh, they're doing something and I'm like,

01:09:02.659 --> 01:09:05.300
oh that's gonna give you it's gonna be a shoulder

01:09:05.300 --> 01:09:11.550
impingement and I'd I'd like to say listen not

01:09:11.550 --> 01:09:15.409
to, you know, impose, but I think if you do what

01:09:15.409 --> 01:09:17.289
you're doing, you're gonna hurt yourself. But

01:09:17.289 --> 01:09:18.829
I won't even do that because I think they'll,

01:09:19.029 --> 01:09:20.329
they might get offended or they might think,

01:09:20.350 --> 01:09:22.949
oh, who's this creep? How dare you? I think,

01:09:22.970 --> 01:09:28.229
and I think it comes to, from the current culture

01:09:28.229 --> 01:09:30.630
and maybe even social media of people making

01:09:30.630 --> 01:09:33.949
so much spectacle, so many videos, they just,

01:09:33.989 --> 01:09:37.399
now they just take videos. Of course for views

01:09:37.399 --> 01:09:39.659
where let's say for example, they're at the gym

01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:41.699
and they're like, oh look at this guy He's looking

01:09:41.699 --> 01:09:43.539
at me, but it's not really true. They're just

01:09:43.539 --> 01:09:47.119
doing it To get views for entertainment, but

01:09:47.119 --> 01:09:50.340
people do eventually think it's reality and so

01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:54.159
that could be skewed So maybe one example, um

01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:56.279
I guess another one for me is if I'm in public

01:09:56.279 --> 01:09:59.859
And maybe I might see someone I'd like to approach.

01:09:59.859 --> 01:10:02.880
I just wouldn't know what to say. What do you

01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:05.750
say? I see in the West, you know, when I went

01:10:05.750 --> 01:10:07.590
home in Canada in the summer, what I noticed

01:10:07.590 --> 01:10:12.250
when I was out with my friend, she would always

01:10:12.250 --> 01:10:13.689
be approached by other women, and they would

01:10:13.689 --> 01:10:16.369
just always stop and say, oh, I just had to tell

01:10:16.369 --> 01:10:18.930
you, your hair, I like it so much, or I just

01:10:18.930 --> 01:10:20.090
had to tell you, I love what you're wearing.

01:10:20.670 --> 01:10:23.510
That's something I see so often in Canada when

01:10:23.510 --> 01:10:25.289
I go back, like just people coming up to people

01:10:25.289 --> 01:10:29.869
and just complimenting them. I could do it. Maybe

01:10:29.869 --> 01:10:32.479
I've been living here too long. I don't. And,

01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:34.939
like, how would a person react if, like, maybe

01:10:34.939 --> 01:10:36.220
I should try it. Maybe I should go up to a woman

01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:38.579
and say, I think you're so pretty. Okay, bye.

01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:42.680
But, like, how would they react? They go like,

01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:46.640
ugh, get away from me. Weird. Why does it have

01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:49.100
to start with a compliment though? I know, I'm

01:10:49.100 --> 01:10:51.460
just curious. I don't know. Because even that

01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:55.840
sounds canned. That is such a, like, that reminds

01:10:55.840 --> 01:10:58.239
me of, like, now you're wandering into the territory

01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:00.640
of, like, pickup artists and these men who just,

01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:04.750
like, ooh. you know, asks things to women just

01:11:04.750 --> 01:11:07.350
so they can engage in conversation and just snowballs.

01:11:07.489 --> 01:11:12.310
You're carrying a lot of stuff, a lot of bad

01:11:12.310 --> 01:11:15.329
behavior from other men that you feel responsible

01:11:15.329 --> 01:11:22.449
in a way for it. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to say

01:11:22.449 --> 01:11:27.729
something about compliments and so I've this,

01:11:27.989 --> 01:11:30.930
I feel So privileged because I have this unique

01:11:30.930 --> 01:11:37.189
experience of having lived on both sides. Right.

01:11:37.350 --> 01:11:42.329
And, and one thing I can say is now passing this

01:11:42.329 --> 01:11:44.289
strangest thing happened to me the other day,

01:11:44.529 --> 01:11:46.489
just two days ago, I walked in, I was looking

01:11:46.489 --> 01:11:49.350
for a t -shirt. Um, the school was supposed to

01:11:49.350 --> 01:11:51.869
give us t -shirts. Okay. My t -shirt wasn't there.

01:11:51.869 --> 01:11:54.250
And I was like, Hey, where are the teachers?

01:11:54.329 --> 01:11:57.810
And she was like that. Um, so some other guy

01:11:57.810 --> 01:12:01.250
teacher. some, some male teacher came to take

01:12:01.250 --> 01:12:05.130
them. She was interacting with me because she,

01:12:05.409 --> 01:12:09.270
I have to boy mode at school and she did not

01:12:09.270 --> 01:12:14.130
clock me. So like, at least in China, I am continually

01:12:14.130 --> 01:12:17.789
passing now. And the, the thing that I've noticed

01:12:17.789 --> 01:12:22.029
is I get approached by women and, and my interactions

01:12:22.029 --> 01:12:26.310
with the world are friendlier and I'm not always

01:12:26.310 --> 01:12:32.710
sure. If it's me because I'm happier or because

01:12:32.710 --> 01:12:36.670
I am no longer potentially seen as a threat.

01:12:36.770 --> 01:12:41.369
And I think that, or whatever that is, and I

01:12:41.369 --> 01:12:47.470
find it odd because I, and this goes for men

01:12:47.470 --> 01:12:50.430
and women. I get approached in a more friendly

01:12:50.430 --> 01:12:52.649
way, spoken to in a more friendly way and more

01:12:52.649 --> 01:12:56.289
openly. Untrue. I know you. And I wonder if it's

01:12:56.289 --> 01:13:00.909
real because like, yeah, I wonder if it's real.

01:13:01.029 --> 01:13:04.149
I wonder if it comes, if it's internal. Like

01:13:04.149 --> 01:13:07.430
I wear a smile now much more than I ever did

01:13:07.430 --> 01:13:12.590
before. And I think maybe that's part of it.

01:13:12.989 --> 01:13:15.590
Yeah. But probably I want to say that's what

01:13:15.590 --> 01:13:23.390
it is. I think there is some truth to... how

01:13:23.390 --> 01:13:27.970
you feel on the inside. Obviously it reflects

01:13:27.970 --> 01:13:30.609
on the outside and that's how people will respond,

01:13:31.170 --> 01:13:34.270
you know? So if you're wearing the smile and

01:13:34.270 --> 01:13:37.750
you have an open energy, and I love talking about

01:13:37.750 --> 01:13:40.810
things in terms of energy, right? Then there

01:13:40.810 --> 01:13:46.850
will be a response to that, you know? Yeah. I

01:13:46.850 --> 01:13:50.250
think, yeah. That has to do too with, like that

01:13:50.250 --> 01:13:53.640
reminds me of like your posture. Like a person's

01:13:53.640 --> 01:13:58.779
maybe like slouching forward The body holds the

01:13:58.779 --> 01:14:01.880
body holds what's in the mind it's it's the fact

01:14:01.880 --> 01:14:09.239
yeah, and people respond to that So then my question

01:14:09.239 --> 01:14:13.859
is Why do so many men hold so much bad energy?

01:14:14.180 --> 01:14:16.979
Because when you say that I'm thinking of men

01:14:16.979 --> 01:14:19.979
acting quote -unquote mainly having this kind

01:14:19.979 --> 01:14:25.750
of posture that is just so kind of like aggressive

01:14:25.750 --> 01:14:32.329
and domineering. I see a lot here. Like the strutting.

01:14:32.329 --> 01:14:35.810
Maybe they enjoy walking like that. Maybe. I

01:14:35.810 --> 01:14:39.350
don't know. We'd have to understand them a little

01:14:39.350 --> 01:14:42.630
bit more. It's very easy. Human beings, we make

01:14:42.630 --> 01:14:46.130
up a lot of assumptions on face value based on

01:14:46.130 --> 01:14:49.909
our own experiences of stuff. Yeah. I do think

01:14:49.909 --> 01:14:53.369
that there's like a strong macho culture here,

01:14:53.430 --> 01:14:57.890
but it's kind of permeated. I find Chinese culture

01:14:57.890 --> 01:15:00.569
so interesting because they've got like these

01:15:00.569 --> 01:15:06.029
complex levels to society that are clearly defined.

01:15:06.210 --> 01:15:09.350
I feel like the society is quite clicky. And

01:15:09.350 --> 01:15:13.989
with that, I want to thank Shay for coming onto

01:15:13.989 --> 01:15:16.229
the podcast. I know you're quite busy and you

01:15:16.229 --> 01:15:19.100
have other things to do. Thank you so much for

01:15:19.100 --> 01:15:22.279
the time today. I'd love to carry on talking

01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:24.380
because I feel like we're just getting started

01:15:24.380 --> 01:15:29.119
actually. Well, just come back. There are more

01:15:29.119 --> 01:15:35.680
times. I'm not going anywhere. In fact, no, I'm

01:15:35.680 --> 01:15:37.979
the one that messed with the schedule a bit.

01:15:38.380 --> 01:15:40.720
But what you were saying there about maybe just

01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:43.920
more aware of it. That also is something very

01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:45.800
curious to me, because there's a lot of talk

01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:48.039
about, at the moment, about being an empath.

01:15:48.520 --> 01:15:50.279
Have you heard that? Lots of people saying I'm

01:15:50.279 --> 01:15:53.100
an empath around things. And whenever I hear

01:15:53.100 --> 01:15:57.159
somebody saying they're an empath, I ask them,

01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:00.180
or I think to myself, is that not type of vigilance

01:16:00.180 --> 01:16:07.239
from a trauma response? And obviously that goes

01:16:07.239 --> 01:16:10.340
into... um, codependent relationships where,

01:16:10.619 --> 01:16:12.720
you know, you, you can't hold up a boundary because

01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:15.800
you're an empath and you feel so deeply. But

01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:18.100
anyway, that's a whole other different conversation.

01:16:19.260 --> 01:16:22.720
Um, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Kaleidoscope

01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:28.100
with Shay Rhys Davies, uh, sexologist, therapist,

01:16:28.340 --> 01:16:33.920
and TRE provider. Um, if you want to speak to

01:16:33.920 --> 01:16:38.220
Shay, you can find her at I can share this, right?

01:16:38.739 --> 01:16:44.300
Yeah. You can find her at creating underscore

01:16:44.300 --> 01:16:50.399
capacity with shang and you can find, you can

01:16:50.399 --> 01:16:56.439
find kaleidoscope at a new URL for YouTube. It's

01:16:56.439 --> 01:17:01.439
echo perspectives and on Instagram and fire from

01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:05.680
heat on tech talk heat from fire. You can find

01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:09.909
Luigi. anywhere you can find Kaleidoscope until

01:17:09.909 --> 01:17:12.250
such point where he would like to share - Now

01:17:12.250 --> 01:17:14.329
I'm brave enough to think my social media is

01:17:14.329 --> 01:17:20.329
worth visiting. Um, thank you so much. So, and

01:17:20.329 --> 01:17:23.949
you're welcome back anytime. Thank you very much

01:17:23.949 --> 01:17:26.210
for having me, even though I was very nervous.

01:17:27.590 --> 01:17:31.710
It takes me a while to warm up. That's fine.

01:17:32.010 --> 01:17:34.409
That's usually how it goes. Like it's, it's really,

01:17:34.430 --> 01:17:35.949
I don't want to say it's really awkward, but

01:17:35.949 --> 01:17:40.489
you know. It develops momentum because we never

01:17:40.489 --> 01:17:44.510
know how the guest is going to react or feel.

01:17:44.550 --> 01:17:45.970
We don't want them to feel uncomfortable and

01:17:45.970 --> 01:17:48.449
it just takes time. It always works out though,

01:17:48.470 --> 01:17:52.210
we find. Hello internet. Thank you for listening

01:17:52.210 --> 01:17:55.189
to that podcast. I had a lot of fun recording

01:17:55.189 --> 01:17:58.550
it with Shay and during the podcast I said some

01:17:58.550 --> 01:18:02.449
things. Before we wrap up, here's a quick fact

01:18:02.449 --> 01:18:05.909
check to clear something I said earlier. I mentioned

01:18:05.909 --> 01:18:10.090
this all -male warrior tribe in Africa and that

01:18:10.090 --> 01:18:13.090
wasn't accurate. Across the continent, there

01:18:13.090 --> 01:18:17.649
were male -only warrior societies like the Samburu

01:18:17.649 --> 01:18:22.890
Muran. I'm probably just butchering this pronunciation.

01:18:23.989 --> 01:18:30.560
Samburu Muran in Kenya and Amabutu regiments

01:18:30.560 --> 01:18:33.739
under Shaka Zulu, but these were age set military

01:18:33.739 --> 01:18:37.720
groups, not separate tribes. They trained, lived

01:18:37.720 --> 01:18:43.359
and fought apart from the main body, but they

01:18:43.359 --> 01:18:47.260
followed strict discipline and weren't intentionally

01:18:47.260 --> 01:18:55.479
celibate. sexual things happening, but they weren't

01:18:55.479 --> 01:18:59.340
inherently queer and I can't find any documentation

01:18:59.340 --> 01:19:02.899
on that. But that being said, queerness absolutely

01:19:02.899 --> 01:19:08.300
did exist in African cultures long before colonialism.

01:19:09.399 --> 01:19:13.439
And some examples are Azande in the Congo and

01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:17.439
South Sudan region. Early 20th century ethnographers

01:19:17.439 --> 01:19:21.750
recorded warrior men taking younger male partners,

01:19:22.109 --> 01:19:25.350
sometimes called boy wives. So yeah, we'll just

01:19:25.350 --> 01:19:29.970
leave that there. Yan Daudu, Northern Nigeria,

01:19:30.310 --> 01:19:35.090
gender non -conforming men within the Hausa society

01:19:35.090 --> 01:19:42.529
who took on feminine roles. And Imbangala in

01:19:42.529 --> 01:19:45.699
the 17th century Angola. Portuguese accounts

01:19:45.699 --> 01:19:49.539
described elite warriors who kept male companions

01:19:49.539 --> 01:19:53.800
among their wives. So there are some interesting

01:19:53.800 --> 01:19:57.920
things for you. The other thing I mentioned was

01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:04.630
a little bit of a questioning Luigi on The start

01:20:04.630 --> 01:20:08.210
of purity culture. As we know today, the obsession

01:20:08.210 --> 01:20:12.149
of sexual purity and abstinence, modesty, codes,

01:20:12.489 --> 01:20:16.529
and moral surveillance is not ancient. It's largely

01:20:16.529 --> 01:20:23.109
from the late 19th, 20th century. And American

01:20:23.109 --> 01:20:27.510
evangelicalism, if that's what you call it. So

01:20:27.510 --> 01:20:31.380
modern purity culture. abstinence pledges and

01:20:31.380 --> 01:20:34.520
stuff really comes from the like 1980s 1990s

01:20:34.520 --> 01:20:38.460
so it's even younger than I had originally anticipated

01:20:38.460 --> 01:20:43.680
during the podcast so yeah anyway no no all -male

01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:47.439
queer warrior tribes but yes African queer history

01:20:47.439 --> 01:20:51.380
is absolutely real and I just wanted to make

01:20:51.380 --> 01:20:55.640
sure that I make that clear yeah have a good

01:20:55.640 --> 01:20:57.479
day I love you bye