No, that's not true. Luigi's always nervous because
he thinks that we're going to run out of things
to say. So it's like, we're getting these people
up and I don't know what to say. I don't know
if we'll be able to talk. My problem is that
there's like billions of people that are going
to see this one day. I'm glad you're that up
the list. This was the this what we're gonna
do right now. It was Luigi's idea. I Had the
idea right in the beginning of the podcast. I
mentioned it once It never took fruit. It was
meant to be at the end. What was the idea? Rapid
fire. Oh, right. Yeah so Can you do it? This
is how my life goes Um, I'll start. How do we
want to do this? Would you like a longer answer
or yes or no questions? Let's go for yes or no.
Quick, quick. And then if there's time, we can
go longer questions. I don't mind. Are these
around sexuality and sexology or is this like
around me as a human? They can go either way.
We'll see how it goes. I'll ask one, then you
ask one, then Luigi asks one, and we go like
around Robin. Okay. You know what? No, yes or
no. It can be yes or no, but it can also be like
list. Okay. I would just, you know, just think
at the beginning, we can just, if we have any
questions, we can just ask them. Exactly. I have
questions. Shay, how would you define yourself
in three words? Alternative. Fiery. And peaceful.
Kind of contradicts. It's a paradox. Fiery yet
peaceful. I guess fire can be peaceful. It just
happens to be very powerful. But it's not aggressive.
It just is. Campfire. Yeah. That's what I was
thinking. Or like a candle. To me, that just
sounds kind of... Got a lot of potential for
damage, I guess. When I think about campfires,
I am fiery, by the way. I can be. When you think
about fires, you are fiery? No, no, no, no. When
I think about fires, when I think about campfires
specifically, I think about the stereotypical
South African campfire in the bush, but always...
with a layer of romance. I never think about
like all the people talking around. And I think
because in my childhood, I loved those things,
but I was more interested in like a romantic
kind of wine session. That is romantic. I've
never had the privilege of doing something like
that. Does that sound sad? Man, that lame life
I've led. I'm very romantic. You're gonna have
to come to South Africa and have a proper South
African bush campfire then. I'm sure, I'm sure
we can find somebody to introduce you to. To
have a bushfire with? I mean... No, to have a
romantic experience with... Yeah, well, you know,
I mean, I can do it. Eventually. I gotta work
real hard at it. I've always thought about it.
I've always thought... Listen, I'm terrible in
relationships. But when I do have the intention
of planning a romantic day, they just never get
to that point. Maybe my problem is I'm waiting
for the opportunity to do it. And so it never
happens. And I'll say because of like the weather
or something. That's honestly what I'm thinking
now, actually. That's two relationships. So you're
waiting for like the perfect time, the perfect
conditions? Well, here where we live, yeah, it's
weather is so fickle. It stinks. So, it's a small
window of when you can like go outside and really
enjoy it comfortably. So, you know, ideally I
wait for like May. Really, that's it. You get
the month of May and maybe now like mid -October.
Otherwise, it's just, it is brutal out there.
It's just too hot. Well, here's your window.
We're still in October. But I don't have a relationship!
I got to rent. Just rent. We have to rent one
of those. I feel abandoned. You have a relationship
with me. Oh, get out of here. Okay, fine. Friends?
Yeah, we can do friend stuff all the time. We
do do friend stuff. It's great. There you go.
What defines a relationship, right? Okay, maybe
a question for later. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
We can ask it now. What defines a relationship?
We can ask it now. Well, the relationship I was
thinking about in this particular instance was
a romantic relationship. That's why you have,
you know, The picnic and the wine and all that
stuff. Okay, I have the next rapid fire question
because this is not rapid fire at all. Relationships
need to be deep to be romantic. Yes or no? No.
You just wanted to say yes or no. Do you want
an explanation? Yeah, now I want an explanation
because I agree. Okay, well then what's your
explanation for why? My explanation is connection
isn't bound to a specific form. It's fluid, it
can change, much like fire. It can roar and then
it can simmer. Okay, that was a very deep answer.
I just think they don't have to be deep because
when you are with someone you enjoy, someone
who makes life, you know, livable. Something
you enjoy being with then you don't have to say
anything. You know, there's always that kind
of cliche that answers all been together for
so long We just understand each other we don't
need to say a word and that's also something
other people say like everyone says this like
oh You know, you're in a good relationship when
you don't have to say anything but you know a
relationship is when you just spend time with
each other and like spending time with each other
and There's no expectations. I guess so in that
respect It doesn't have to be deep. You don't
have to talk about, like, Chaucer or whatever.
Whatever political affairs, but people do because
it's fun. Otherwise, you just sit and... What
about you, Shay? So yeah, I'm in agreement. I
don't think you need... I think it can just be
a... Romantary connection. Both of you have traveled,
obviously. You're not in your home country. So
it's safe to assume that you've had some adventures
in the world. And maybe, like me, you met somebody
on a beach in Mexico once and had a super romantic
stroll under the stars and a little skinny dip.
To me, that's super romantic. Yeah. Right. But
it doesn't need to be anything more than that.
It was this beautiful connection in the moment.
And you never have to see the person again. Have
you done that? You've really done that? It wasn't
Mexico, it was Mauritius. Okay, but it's happened
to you. It does happen, yeah. Like, I envy people
who have those, you know, uh, encounters. How
do you, is there any other kind of way of saying
it? That's a good word for it, yeah. Um, I won't
say trists, I feel like saying a trist is a bad
thing. But, I, I know so many people who... I
have those encounters often and I envy the crap
out of them. That's just my personality. I'm
just - Just go have them. I wish, but like how
do I do that? I wish you could just - That's
the topic. It just happens randomly. That's the
topic to go. Okay, that's my topic for the day.
So my question is what's stopping you from doing
that or what has stopped you from doing that?
Oh, yeah. That's a great question. A lot of things,
but the most paralyzing thing is probably my,
I don't want to say fear. It is a fear, but it's
more like my duty as a heteronormative man to
not be a creep. So it is very, in my life, it's
difficult for me to confidently approach women,
not because I'm like, I have low self -esteem,
but because of the reaction and then therefore,
you know. Like a woman, this is the problem for
women, is that they don't have the privilege
of knowing that a man who is talking to them
or, you know, helping and working with them is
trying to do something dishonest or something
bad, you know, so For me I have personally I
don't I feel responsible for when I interact
with women like I have to do it the right way
and if I can't then I cannot approach So I don't
like I don't know how men do it. I can't it makes
me feel and I think that's bad or like it's bad
for me and that I don't have the experiences
I'd like but I'd rather not deal with like the
rumination of thinking, oh, I was such a creep.
Oh, how can I do that to a woman? Oh, I'm so
bad. I don't want to be one of those guys. This
opens up so many more questions, you know, about
language, the language we use about these encounters
or relationships in general or sex in general,
because the language shapes our reality, right?
And if we don't have the language to approach
somebody in that context, yeah, it gets tricky.
And then I've got another question. Hey, we need
the content. Do you feel that men and women can
be friends? So people who would be attracted
to each other could be just platonic friends?
Is it possible? People who are attracted to each
other can be platonic friends. Does that involve
any kind of sexual intercourse? No. Like you
could be friends, but you... Oh, can they be
attracted to... Yeah, they can. If your type
had to walk into the door, like everything takes
all the boxes, right? Yeah, yeah. What stops
a person being friends or what initiates that
kind of, you know that butterfly feeling in your
tummy where you're like, oh, I'm feeling it for
this person? How do you navigate that? Well,
I couldn't, I'm a baby. I would be... pining
for my friend. If they were just like perfect,
I'd want them. But then there's also the cliche
of boys who, or even girls, like say in popular
culture, you don't act because they always say,
I'm looking for the right, I'm looking for the
perfect moment. They're like, oh no, I'll lose
them forever if I tell them how I really feel.
Which makes for a great story. In real life,
I think in my old age, I would I would probably
tell them straight away. Because when I was young,
I won, because I was so afraid of losing him,
so I would wait and hesitate. But that's like
what teenagers do, I think. I don't think there's
one teenager who doesn't do that. In the world,
boy or girl, whatever. So, that's my answer I'm
coming from. My answer for this question, just
the second one. What was the first question?
Can you be friends with the person you're super
attracted to? But I think Shay's question was,
if you're both attracted to each other, can you
just stay friends? So yes, you can be friends
with the person that you're attracted to, for
sure. Can they have a platonic relationship?
I also think yes. I think that plenty of marriages
are exactly that. I don't like that. like business
propositions. It's like business. No, no, no,
no, no. I think plenty of husbands and wives
are very attracted to each other, but they fall
into a platonic state of their relationship for
whatever number of reasons. And I think the same
can happen to anyone. That, I disagree. I think
if a husband and wife are in that scenario, they
would be in love with each other. So they always
have the option of intercourse. And the issue
is, in this thought experiment, you don't have
the option of intercourse. You always have the
option of intercourse. No, because you have to...
Her question is, can they just be friends? But
I'm asking, could you have intercourse and still
be friends? Another question. That's another
question. Can you have intercourses still be
friends? But sort of the scenario that I was
thinking of is two people who are attracted to
each other, both unavailable due to whatever
circumstance. Maybe they're in a monogamous relationship
themselves, but there's that chemistry there.
Yeah. But that opens up the whole question of,
okay, what is a normal relationship then? And
it leads into like, how do we define it's polyamory,
open, swinging? What are all these different
things? How would you? Yeah, how would you define
it? I don't think you can't I think it's I Think
the problem is when you try and define something
like that Then it becomes A wrong maybe well
the issue is once you try and define things in
control and everything goes haywire and then
it just doesn't it's not good you know, obviously
that's why the world has so many problems in
terms of Let's say gender, for the sake of argument,
you know? Once you try and fit concepts into
a box, and there's some bigger group, let's say,
trying to control, and if they let everyone be
free and do whatever, they lose that control,
then it's a problem. Like if we lived in a world
where no one defined anything like that, then
there'd be no issue. Yeah, but there would be
no control. So, yeah, it's such a big question,
actually. Because control on one hand, we don't
need to be controlled. But on the other hand,
for a society to function in a certain way, there
needs to be some sort of guidebook. I don't know.
Right. Like social contracts. Yeah, so there's
those bigger kinds of dynamics that keep society
running. And then there are the smaller ones
that people think are so dangerous. You know,
let's say like polyamory. Like, oh no, what does
it threaten? I don't know, it threatens the family.
And then things will fall apart and then it just
snowballs. But I personally believe those are
narratives created by people, like a group, in
a more privileged position. And it's just their
mode of control. They just won't. They'll lose
control. It's like, you know, Give people an
inch, they'll take a mile. More free thought
is a bad thing, et cetera, et cetera. I agree.
Success. We have one more rapid fire question
from Luigi. Luigi, what's your next rapid fire?
Last rapid fire question, then we move on. Okay.
Shay, attachment theory, true or... Total bunk.
Definitely think there is some truth to it, for
sure. I think that we learn how to attach to
certain people early on in our life, and that
kind of sets the path for going forward. If we
only learn one way, for example, if you're in
your family, you've been taught in a certain
way, how are you supposed to know any other way?
I'm not a fan of lots of different labels, but
it helps to explain things and define things
for yourself. So in that context, yes, the attachment
theory does really help to understand what's
going on in a relationship. But I always allow
for a little bit of room to Four was in context,
right? Everything was in context. And also just
because you're one sort of anxious, avoidant,
attached person doesn't mean that you can't experience
another type of attachment either. So everything
was in context at that time and point in that
person's life. That is the kind of the key to
it. Does that make sense? It does make sense.
He had that phone call that just happened. Okay.
While we wait, this is kind of nice. What is
a brief, like, 10 -word attachment theory? What
is it? So attachment theory is basically how
you form responses, or you've put me on the spot
here, Ray, and how you form attachments to people.
So for example, I'll tell you kind of the history
of it. So I think it was back in the eighties
and there was... a study done to try and prove
why certain people responded in certain situations
to certain other people. And I mean, looking
back now, it's pretty unethical, but basically
they had kids come into a room with their parents.
And in that room with the child and their parent
was an unknown person. So maybe it would have
been the therapist or whatever, but the child
was left to play in the room and then the parent
would leave the room and the child would be in
the room pretty much on their own. And then they
would study how that child responded to the parent
leaving the room and then coming back into the
room, right? So some children got really upset
and like, mommy at the door, really craving that
kind of like a clingy child, right? The anxious
here child. I remember this now. Yeah. when maybe
when the parent came back in the room, the child
would be like, okay, and carry on doing playing
what they're playing kind of like, oh, well,
you left me, I'm not going to acknowledge you,
right? The avoidant sort of side of the behavior.
And so that's kind of the very, in a very basic
nutshell, how they came to understand this. And
it's all about, yeah, I mean, it's very much
childhood psychology involved. in it, how we
respond to being left alone. I mean, and then
there was that psychologist or psychiatrist,
I can't remember, who his big claim to fame was,
is let the child cry. You know, if a baby is
crying, let it cry, leave it in a room on its
own and let it cry it out. And now, as we are
starting to understand this attachment theory
and trauma and all of that a little bit more,
we understand that no, that their child needs
skin on skin, needs to be loved, needs to be
held to help them develop a healthy attachment.
Right? I hope that makes sense. Not too sciencey.
Absolutely, that makes sense. Yeah. I don't want
to get signed, right? So I'm going to, and I
know you have things going on, so I'm going to
like kind of first, first, uh, I would rather
spend more time speaking on the main topic and
I have exciting news. So. Hello, internet. Welcome
to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Rae Liu, and
today I am joined by my co -host, Luigi, and
my lovely therapist, Shae Reese Davies. Kirei.
It's my pleasure. I am what happens. When you
drink too many unicorn tears and decide to go
to Halloween as a raging slut angel trying to
buy her way back into heaven. That was a lot.
There was a great intro. Thank you. I really
want to make... Spacebar. I really want to make,
you know, relevant pop culture jokes, but I feel
like all three of us come from... different worlds.
For my intro! You're what happens when you run
out of pop culture jokes, because... I guess
so. No, I'm what happens when you're too considerate,
when you want to make funny jokes. And you think
they won't land. Okay, my - What's the waste
that can happen? This happens all the time! I
make jokes on the show or I reference something
and nobody - they don't know what I'm talking
about! I'm either that old, or it's just culturally
too different. Okay, here's what I was gonna
say. Hi, my name's Luigi, and don't we all wish
we could be Rory Gilmore? You don't get it, do
you? No idea who Rory Gilmore is. See what I
mean? Gilmore Girls, come on! Anyone from North
America would get that joke. And they'd go, oh
yeah, I wanna be Rory Gilmore. Where from? Okay,
did you get mine? Well, yeah, you know, yeah
unicorns and stuff. No, no your Halloween costume.
No, it's There's a TV show called Panty and stocking
with garter belt and I assumed they are That's
the door. Yeah, you have something at the door.
They are two fallen angels They have fallen in
the town and they have to earn heaven coins to
go to heaven and panty is a slot of notes and
she locks it like they have to defeat demons
to get these coins and she often ends up sleeping
with the demon before it gets killed yeah and
i'm going as her so they have two forms they
have an angelic form and like a normal form and
i'm going as her angelic form i will send you
photos awesome What kind of colors are you going
for? Like white angel, big white wings or...
Traditional white and gold with like pink flying
parts. Yeah. As a side note, have you seen the
biblical version of what an angel should look
like? I have seen that, yeah. And it's not angelic
at all. I just thought I'd put it there as a
side note. What about you though, Shay? How would
you like to introduce yourself? So I'm quite
straightforward. Just a human, having a human
experience, trying to do my best every day. Never
mind all the professional title or other sort
of labels. I'm just a human being. Trying to
experience this life to the absolute fullest.
Yeah. As corny as that sounds, actually. I don't
think it's corny. I think it's grounded and I've
got to say cinnamon on a pancake is always good.
It doesn't have to be caramel. Yeah. It's a good
way to describe it. Yeah. I have no idea what's
happening. with this delivery. It's a passport
issue. Someone is supposed to pick up his passport.
So, yeah. That's okay. I'm going to start. So
I'll cut this. I'll cut from now. It worked.
Shay! Yes. Hi. Sorry. Welcome. You are first
and foremost a sexologist and after that a general
consultant therapist and also a trauma release
exercise provider. Can you give us a little bit
of a, just a little bit of background of what
that means? Okay. So I'm going to start with
the sexologist part because that's always what
gets a little bit of eyebrows raised, right?
Because of the word sex in it. Sexology, ology
obviously means it's that Greek word, the science
of or the scientific studies of sex. But that's
where people maybe get a little bit confused
because when we hear the word sex we think of
bumping uglies, right? You think of sexual intercourse.
But sex in sexology is short for sexuality, right?
And sexuality is a very big vast topic. So it's
anything from biology, psychology, social studies.
What I, my kind of speciality that I'm moving
into with my master's degree is forensic sexology,
which has got to do with the joining of sexuality
and the law, right? So it's quite a vast topic.
And so that I specialize in sexuality health,
not necessarily sexual health. And then yes,
general counseling, but it's all really linked
because a lot of the anxiety, the people with
the anxiety that I see, the cause is due to sexual
dysfunction or sexual trauma or something along
those lines. So it's like a big spider web. And
if you wiggle something up here, something down
here jiggles, it's all connected. And then the
TRE, so the Trauma Intention Release Exercise
Provider, quite a mouthful, but basically that's
a somatic technique to help work on the physiology,
so beyond the mind, to help release pent up,
stored up tension from stress and trauma. Yes.
really cool to me and we've had quite a few discussions
delving into my own sexuality and my own trauma
in the past and now I'm so honored to have you
here to discuss like a candid discussion on just
all of this together but my journey as well as
I start to more and more explore my own sexuality.
Because this is how I found you. I needed, I
realized that I needed to figure out what my
sexuality is and where it's so much history and
so much purity culture kind of Uh, taint in that.
And now I'm at a point where I just got an opportunity
to review a set of very raunchy sex toys online.
Really? Really, really. That's lucky. Tell us
more about them. What kind of sex toys, Ray?
Okay. Dear listeners, Ruby Ray Liu will be trying
out a series of monster dildos from a new brand
called Monster Dildos in that space. They do
hand -poured silicone and fantasy shapes and
crazy sizes. They also have a series of lights.
um, interesting lubricants that simulate some
things. Yeah. Do you have these things now? Um,
it's not, it's not, the light -o -scope is not
being sponsored by them. Uh, yeah. So that's
fun, right? It's fun. Luigi, what do you think
about sex toys? Fine. Perfectly fine. Use them.
It's great. Whatever. No issue. Do you have any
sex toys? Let me answer that with a question
for Shay on the topic of sex toys. In Canada,
there's a very... famous sexologist. She doesn't
do it anymore. Her name, I believe her name was
Sue. I want to say Joe Hanson, but I could be
very wrong. The point is she had a show called
Sex Talk with Sue and many Canadians religiously
watched that show every week. And she made sex
and sexuality and all those sex toys, whatever,
way more culturally accepted in Canada. So I
grew up I don't say as a child, but when I, fairly
young, watching that show late at night and really
gave a pretty positive perspective to me when
it came to sexuality. Because of this woman,
this, you know, professional in the field of
sex and sexuality. On TV, people would phone
in and they'd talk to her and they'd ask her
questions. And she'd make you feel perfectly
okay. Nothing was too... shameful or silly when
it came to questions about sex. Like, her responses
were always positive and like, you know, extroverted,
not like shameful, not like, ooh, things like
that. Great. Anyway, that's my answer. Okay.
I'm gonna type that as a yes. No, I do not. At
the moment. Well, maybe Ray can hook you up.
I mean, maybe she can get, I don't know, stock
discounts. They want to see these things she's
gonna get. Can I use it like a centerpiece? I
assume one of them will look like a potted plant.
No. They look like dildos. They look like dildos,
yeah. They look like dildos, yes. One is a unicorn.
One is a tentacle and one is a lichen. And maybe...
And a lichen! That's funny. The unicorn I didn't
expect, the tentacle I 110 % expected. I got
to choose three. So I got to go onto the website
and choose three. And I think I'm losing connection,
but I don't think I can share the... the website,
but you're welcome to visit it, monsterdotos
.com. Free plug. Yeah, free plug. That's exactly,
yeah, it's free Dodo's for a plug. If that works.
So many layers to that comment. I was going to
say. I'm excited. Okay. It's going to be fun.
Good. I wish more people could have more candid,
open, honest conversations around these topics
because it is central to our human beingness,
our sexuality. It is us. That's what we are.
As far as I know, sex toys go as far back as
like ancient Greek theater. There was one, because
I'm a humanities student, so, you know, I did
read a whole bunch of archaic kind of stuff.
There was one particular play, a Greek play,
where the women were defending themselves and
they used or made jokes about dildos. I need
to find out what that play was called. I'll do
it right now. Send it. With rubies. Apple computer
that I can't use because I am a total Luddite
when it comes to these things. I have a question.
What was your shape? Do you have any sex toys?
Any sex toys? Yes. But very classic like vibrator.
Very classic clitoral stimulator with vibrating
shaft. Okay, like a rabbit. Yes, like the good
old rabbits, yeah, but high grade silicone for
sure. Yes, I get sent stuff all the time. I get
sent lube, I get sent cock rings, I get sent
lingerie, all that kind of thing. It's fun to
look at. I mean, one of my friends had a kitchen
tee with tonnies, a lot of tonnies around the
kitchen table, and they all gave dishcloths and
things like that. And I like winked at her before
she opened my gift because it was a vibrating
butt plug, loo condoms. Very taboo to be around
that kitchen tea table. So I have an extensive
range of sex toys and I'm looking forward to
buying my own rabbit when I am able to use it
properly. But for now, the number one sex toy
is a magic wand and it's great. And I was never
able to use it before my transition, but estrogen
significantly changed the way that my body experiences
pleasure. And, um, but, but the reason I asked
the question originally was I want to know from
everybody, what is the first sex toy that you
ever owned or used? You don't have to answer.
So I don't know so much. Go ahead. Okay. So I
don't know if it was so much a sex toy, but.
You used to be able to get like fluffy pink handcuffs.
And I was like 18, very naive. And so that was
my first kind of buy from a sex toy shop were
fluffy pink handcuffs. I didn't know what to
do with them, but anyway. Adorable. Yeah. The
first thing I did after I got my license. The
very first thing I did after I got my license
and I was able to drive alone. without anybody
watching me is I drove to a sex shop and I bought
sex toys and I bought three backlogs of different
sizes. That was my first sex toy. Do you think
it's quite a taboo subject still? Of course,
Canada, you had that amazing sexologist. with
her game show, or not her game show, her talk
show. But why is it still such a big taboo topic,
do you think? I don't think it is a big topic.
I don't think it's very taboo, to be honest,
amongst adults. I think it's pretty normal, personally.
I'm just not as sexually cool as you guys. So,
you know, think of what sex toy does a man have.
Think of what sex toy does a boring, normal guy
have. And... I probably have that. I can neither
confirm nor deny, but I probably have what you're
thinking of. Okay. Can I ask... If I were to
have one. Luigi, can I ask what you think about
these new kind of AI sex dolls? Oh, you mean
like the girlfriends that are AI? I think it's
silly. I feel... I personally don't know how
a man or, you know, whatever, how a person could
engage with these things and... find that it
is like an avenue of escape. I could not, I could
not immerse myself in it. Because I know it's
not, it's just, they're still so wooden. Because
it's funny you bring that up, because the other
day, I think it was just yesterday, I saw a video,
I think it might have been a joke, but it was
a man talking to his AI girlfriend and someone
was filming it as if they were spying. But I
thought, is that what they are? And it just seems,
again, so wooden. Like not... I can get behind
it. If that's what you want to do, by all means.
Are we talking about the like automatons, the
robots, or just the AI software? I think the
AI software. Yeah. Okay, so here's something
interesting that I have... Right. On the topic
of AI, because I have been, my, my dislike for
AI has been growing more and more because I think
that it is invading spaces where it shouldn't
be. I, I'm a supporter of AI. We've spoken about
this to use as a tool, but when it starts replacing,
um, everything, I, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.
And. particularly when people start taking credit
for those things. So, so that, that's an unrelated
to this topic, kind of, sorry, tangent, but they,
I watched a documentary about a guy who has an
AMV girlfriend and AI with various different,
like he, he bought various AI subscriptions and
then he jail broke them one by one. so they could
say whatever they wanted to say. And his AI girlfriend,
he had them chat with each other over voice because
they can. Um, and his AI girlfriend started flirting
with ChatTPT within like minutes of the conversation
and cheated on him. And it's just silly. Yeah,
it's silly. I think it's silly. I don't think
that like, this is a space that OnlyFans covers
as well. Like a lot of the OnlyFans kind of appeal
for some men is to have a girlfriend experience
online, even if they just want to chat and they
get like photo updates and stuff like that. And
now AI can do it. Is that, is that wrong? Maybe
because it can skew the perception of what a
person is. From a feminist perspective, it just
raises this bar of unreachable femininity. I
guess so. I have no issue with it. I think it's
silly. I can't imagine. But it's just another
kink. Does it raise a bar for women? I don't
think so, because it's just not real. It sounds
bad to say, but who are the men engaging in these
scenarios? Women, I suppose, have to ask themselves,
are these the kind of guys I even want to pursue?
Probably not. I feel like they have personality
disorders. If they're willing to think a virtual
girlfriend is better than real human connection.
I mean, I could talk about this at length, but...
I won't, because I want to say, I want to bring
up, I found the Greek play I was talking about.
It was called, it's called Lysistrata, okay?
It's real, it's a real play. I was wrong about
the dildos, but essentially the women withhold
from sex in order to end a war. But dildos do
play a part, so yeah. Just bring that back. Ruby
weren't here, but Shay knows what I'm talking
about. Anyway, moving on. So Kaleidoscope is
this podcast all about perspectives, right? And
we've shared a couple, but over the internet,
we kind of emailed before, we also shared unique
perspectives that we wanted to share. At least
you did, I'm not sure if I replied. It's okay.
What was your perspective? Would you mind sharing
that with us again? You remember? Well, I think
the core perspective was, you know, the question
of normal. And I kind of, I was really enjoying
listening to Luigi talk about the AI because
that's something very current and very relevant
to the question of what is normal. right, because
we, there's this emergence of a new kind of normal
with AI. But in general, when we talk about sex
and sexuality, there's always these boxes, right,
of what should and shouldn't be based on collective
belief systems. And whether you're born in South
Africa or a rural tribe in Papua New Guinea,
your normal is going to be different within context.
So yeah, I'm curious to kind of explore a little
bit deeper. And if I may add to Luigi's kind
of train of thought there with the AI, it's interesting
for me because I think that there is some benefit
to AI in the space of sexual health because there
are some people who need access to practice maybe.
flirting or that sort of thing. But it's how
you use those systems. What you put into it is
what you're going to get out to it. And what
terrifies me is it's sort of being this unrestricted
access for, say, for example, young kids who
have no guidance and they haven't had any birds
and bees talk or, you know, it's still something
that's not spoken about in their family. And
then they've got this new normal being created
for them through AI. And then when it comes time
for them to actually have real human interaction,
they kind of stunted. Yeah. So I don't know if
you want to add anything there. I think, I forgot
what I was going to say because I was too busy
making jokes. Essentially though, gone are the
awkward interactions of yesteryear. And I think
those are so important. If we're talking about
AI now in relationships, it's kind of akin to
what dating apps were 10, 15 years ago when they
first came onto the scene. It's the same idea,
I think. gets rid of the dynamic of having to
interact with a real person and not being able
to know how they will react. And the more people
avoid that, the more difficult it becomes to
even want to socialize. And I think this is like
endemic to the kids nowadays. Again, I'm much
older than kids who date today. I won't even
begin. If I were to go out and try and interact
with these children in terms of children, okay.
Young people, let's say in their 20s, how would
I personally interact with them if I were going
to try and date women in this age bracket, like
Zoomers? How would they interact? I might think
they're really strange because they don't interact
in a dynamic of courtship. the way I did growing
up. So what for me is normal or usual because
I didn't have dating apps, I didn't have AI to
practice on, I didn't have the internet to talk.
And that's one thing I just do not like is having
to get to know someone on the internet in the
digital space before seeing them in person. For
me personally, all something like a dating app
does or should do is introduce you and then you
go do the work in person. But what I find for
the Zoomer Generation Z is all the work is done
on the dating app and then a decision is made
and then they meet. So it's like extra steps.
And what happens? Yeah. Oh, I can see the value
if you use AI as a tool for learning, but you'd
need good guidance, kind of like, I don't know,
it kind of reminds me of like a cognitive behavioral
therapy, you know, like kind of exposure therapy.
I guess you could use it for that, but you'd
need to really have someone on the other end
really setting up the scenarios. And it's still
kind of scripted. So the person engaging in it
for treatment or practice would also have to
recognize, you know, this is a fantasy. I don't
fully agree that it is. so scripted. I think
the problem with this is alignment. And I don't
know if you, either of you are familiar with
the concept of alignment of that. Well, now you're
going to have to define alignment in this context.
Yeah. Alignment of AI to human interest. So the
biggest risk for AI is it goes rogue, right?
And it does whatever it wants to do. And now,
right now we have a problem where it's the other
way, where everything AI does is affirming what
you want. It's not scripted. AI is intelligent.
It is very good at telling you what you want
to hear. and it has been instructed explicitly
to not counter or be critical. Because of alignment
because we can't have AI be critical of humans
to the point where it will annihilate us or Have
zero empathy because that's the one thing it
cannot feel so until we understand how to solve
alignment AI goes rogue and the human race is
doomed Well, let me let me just clarify when
I said scripted that is exactly conceptually
what I was referring to how it just panders to
you and just agrees. And that's a really big
problem in real relationships, right? Because
if you don't get rejected, then how are you supposed
to deal with rejection or conflict if you're
not... What if you're just a needy kiss -ass
trying to just like get it and you'll tell the
person you like anything they want because you
just want so bad. I want to loop back to... Can
you hear me? There we go. I want to loop back
to what you said about dating apps and the problem
that everybody dating is young. Not everybody
dating is young. Everybody uses dating apps.
I'm just saying they eliminate those interactions
that are so necessary for starting relationships.
There's a problem too with dating apps is You
know, a checklist. Oh, you're not this, this,
this, this. That totally eliminates a very important
social dynamic, I think, of interaction that
you need to do in the world. Again, I keep saying
it, but you need those awkward interactions.
It's so human and makes you vulnerable, and it's
those kinds of vulnerabilities that allow people
to see and be attracted to each other in those
scenarios. And it does, it does, uh, help people,
you know, develop a thick skin and not, and see
that, you know, it's not the end of the world
if you get rejected. Cause you're also not in
your own mind. Like if you're on a dating app,
maybe, you know, in a chat room, whatever, you
might ruminate and think of... What went wrong?
Yeah, you need human interaction to give you
perspective. It's when we're alone that we risk
kind of like Sounds so cliche being our worst
and enemies, but we make it so much worse for
ourselves and you can only snap yourself out
of that when there's Real people around you.
I think yeah authentic connection. That is that
is the key Yeah, slightly different perspective
for me. I think um Yes You are right. Absolutely.
It eliminates a lot of authentic connection that,
that we need and want. And a lot of people have
like COVID also had a big role in just like removing
that from society, the way that it was approached.
And I'm going to Shanghai on Friday and exactly
with the intent of experiencing like this kind
of, you know, unsure. take, like figuring out
who someone is without having met them before.
And, but aside from that, dating apps do two
other things as well. So because they do that,
they also eliminate conflict management because
all of the things that you don't now don't need
to figure out before or during the connection.
You don't need to have conflict over like, does
he smoke? If I don't want to date a smoker. He
could lie. He could be a big old liar. He could
lie online. That's my point, yeah. Yeah, but
that escalates the conflict. It doesn't make
you have to deal with it. And then the second
thing is the paradox of choice. There are too
many. Okay, okay. Says Ruby Ray. Must be nice.
You want to hear about the last time a dating
app worked for me? Anyway. This is a safe space,
Luigi. If you can talk it out, you can talk it
out. And yeah, I suppose it's also, what are
we using the dating apps for, right? Because
there's dating apps to hook up and then there's
dating apps and then it just serves the purpose
of connecting. Yeah, and then these dating apps
make people uh, yeah I was just sorry to interject.
I'm really rude tonight I genuinely think dating
apps are not for finding meaningful relationships
and when people say they are I just don't believe
them I don't think there's anything wrong with
that. I just wish people would just admit to
their desires and use dating apps for what they
originally created for and then if you fall in
love and have a big long relationship after that
great, but you know Other than that, go gangbusters.
Why do people... Charity culture and fear of
body count. Do people even ask body counts anymore?
Well, we can only speak in the context of China,
can't we? Personally, I think they do in the
West. I still think they do. I mean, I watch
a lot of tabloid -esque internet stuff. So I
think it happens in the West definitely happens
here like it I can say I'm asked chronically
when I meet a potential new partner and I I Think
it's silly, but whatever Again, it's cultural.
It has to do with someone else. Why do you think
it's important for people? Like why is it important?
They might use it as a gauge to see if you're
Like a devoted partner or if you're just looking
for fun Because maybe they are looking for commitment
and they think oh you've been with so many people
Therefore you're not gonna commit to me But in
that respect that's kind of like a self -report
like that's them saying they're not good enough
Like why couldn't someone say well, it's gonna
end with me because I'm the one for you, baby
Like why don't they say that? But I honestly
think they they Think oh, you're not serious.
So get out of here, but that's silly I could
have you know I could date a million people and
not have any kind of, you know, romantic, no
sex with any of them. How is that any different?
I think Ruby Ray has got a point about the purity
culture. Like it's, even though it's not really
at the forefront of our minds, it's like this
thing that lurks there, right? That our virginates
especially, there's that box again for women,
is that our value equals our purity. And our
purity equals our virginity in many contexts.
And that's like globally, whether you're South
African, American. Yeah. I think. Okay, fine.
You go first. I'm going to say, you know, when
women were... This sounds bad to say. When women
were chattel, weren't educated, couldn't get
a job, couldn't contribute in those ways, they
were effectively used for procreation and being
mothers. And that's it. So policing their bodies
with the idea of virginity is a way of a man
ensuring that You know, his offspring will be
his offspring, that's number one. But then, yeah,
I lost my train of thought. Anyway, is that what
you were going to say, Ruby? Something like that?
Along those lines? No. No. I think that, so that
is true, but it's a slice of history that ignores
a very large part of history. Which is? All of
ancient Mesopotamia. That's the, like, that...
It gets us to, well, like the 1600s, but maybe
even the 1500s. But the 1400s and all of the
time before that, a lot of religions and cultures
existed that lived under a sort of like extreme
inequality. And one of the prime examples of
that is ancient Mesopotamia, where women were
revered and educated and equal. Colonialism has
a huge effect on that. So the fact that different
areas were colonized and the histories of the
local peoples were erased is why it shares a
lot of cross -cultural stuff. Because there was
this warrior tribe in ancient Kenya, pre -colonial
Kenya. All men. And never allowed any women and
were like unabashedly queer. It's fascinating.
And I agree with Ray about it being like very
closely linked to colonialism and a very big
part of colonialism is Christianity. Like we
all get told, don't let's not talk about religion
and politics around the dinner table, but we
should be talking about it. Right. Because, and
I can only really speak from the Christian perspective,
even though I understand that there are other
Abrahamic religions that have the same narrative,
but from a Christian perspective, having grown
up in a sort of Christian society, little small
town, it's very apparent that that purity culture
is directly linked to church rules, not necessarily
God's rules, because that's a whole other different
conversation about that. Um, but it's patriarchal
really. The purity culture is a means of control
and that is what has helped the patriarchy grow.
Right. Another, like, I think that the whole
idea of purity culture and specifically this
box of virginity is it's men hating other men.
Because. They think that other men are so disgusting
that if one has had sex with a woman, that woman
is now tainted. It's wild because men are supposed
to be, well, that stereotypical, the stud, you
know, good in bed, strong, all of that. They're
supposed to be experienced and good lovers, et
cetera. But then they want a woman who is...
But where is he? Yeah, so where are these men
finding these women? Where are these women finding
these men anyway? And but that kind of made me
think of another thing of It's all about separation
rights and to control things We need to keep
them separated because if everybody's united
whether we're talking about race gender or anything
When people unite that's when they become powerful,
but when we are separated and it's been shown
in many countries all over the world, when we
separated, we lose the power. And so this also
leads into the conversation about, I mean, in
South Africa, gender -based violence is a very
big topic. And to be honest, that term irks me
a little bit, because for me, it's not so much
gender -based violence, it's violence. Because
when we say gender -based violence, we're putting
one gender against another gender, right? Statistically,
it's male against female in South Africa, but
the truth of the matter is that there are males,
there are men, cisgender, transgender, there
are men who experience terrible abuse, right?
So why do we, why do we put these, why do we
put sides together? Surely there's a better way
of defining that so that everybody feels seen
in something like that. Yeah, just another, whether
it's purity, because men also have big pressure,
right? Girls might have the stay a virgin pressure,
but traditionally young boys also have a certain
pressure to be a certain way according to a certain
box put on them by a certain group of beliefs.
Yeah, I think it's just toxicity in general,
never mind masculinity, because there's toxic
femininity as well. Yes, well, my It's a reaction
to toxic masculinity. It's not an introduction.
It's like, uh, it's, it's, uh, it sounds weird
to say, but it's a who started it kind of situation.
And the reaction to systemic violence is violence.
You cannot react to it any other way. Right?
Sounds interesting. And that sounds like I'm
trying to like whitewash. Women. I don't think
that all women are good. It's not possible. But
I wouldn't want to attribute it to masculinity
necessarily. It's just like why women kill is
not toxic masculinity. I don't know. It depends
why they kill. I will just wrap. The chicken
or the egg? Yeah. It's the same thing. At the
end of the day, it's something bad that people
do. And it comes from a point of systemic power
play that exists today. And then also, you can't
take out the people who are psychopathic. You
can't take out psychopaths or sycophants. They
are what they are. this like this umbrella approach
to all it's not all but I heard a lovely explanation
of this because it it annoyed me as well the
thing like all men are bad it's all men until
it's no men like I didn't understand how why
that could be articulated like how could you
someone say that because it's obviously untrue
right But it's because you will never pet a lion
in the wild Okay, that's the that's the explanation
that's the explanation not all lions eat people
and now you're at the core of why it's all men
because like even okay, so a little bit of a
expose on on being Transgender my wife has always
been strong She's a strong woman and I used to
train with her and I used to be, um, significantly
stronger than her. But over the past, so I'm,
I'm right about at the end, at the, at the point
where I can, at least before, uh, the like anti
-sports kind of rhetoric, I could then participate
in women's sports, right? However, when I play
fight or wrestle with... my partner, I am significantly
weaker than her. And it is kind of terrifying
to think of meeting a stranger and taking them
to my room and thinking of stuff like the trans
panic defense or the possibility because there's
no way that I am physically stronger than Some
men, like I am still stronger than a lot of men.
I work out. But. Wow. The reality is so stark.
I get the lion analogy. It's just that the risk
is too high. You wouldn't just go walking in
the bush on your own with a bunch of lions. Cause
not all lions, but the risk is too high. I have
heard that. Yeah, that's why I find it so refreshing
Luigi when you open up and we were talking about
when we when we opened this Podcast and you were
talking about you know, the the romantic encounters
and your Perspective was really on focusing on
considering what the one what the woman would
be thinking and how you would be coming across
That's not a very common perspective that I've
come across anyway Is it really that? Like, okay,
yes, that's how I feel, but really, are you sure
it's just not me who doesn't want to feel bad?
And that's why. It's more overwhelming for me
to feel bad, so I won't do it. Like, maybe I'm
not as great as you think I am. Like, yeah, there's
definitely empathy there because, yeah, like,
icky. I can somehow reflexively... understand
the kind of, the ick the woman might have. Like,
she's got the ick, and then I'll feel like, ugh,
I'm terrible. A bit, a little voice did come
in my head and ask, you know, well, what is he
avoiding? But then I thought, let's not go there.
Because maybe there was an element of... Please,
by all means. Maybe there's an element of avoidance.
I need all the help I can get. I'm curious as
well, because I, okay, so if you... are afraid
of doing something bad. I was curious about this
as well because if you are afraid of doing something
bad because you think that you might do it but
you never do it. Like if you are afraid of doing
something bad then to me that kind of inherently
means you wouldn't do it. unless you think you're
walking on a minefield of unconsciously doing
something negative. And from that perspective,
I think that obviously what your train of thought
is quite positive, but you're also hamstringing
your opportunities in communicating with people
because Your fear has stretched into an emotional
level and now you're scared of inflicting emotional
harm by virtue of speaking, right? Sometimes
it's just not your cup of tea, right? Sometimes
it's not your cup of tea. And that's also fine.
For some people like me, those encounters were
fun, enjoyable, something I wanted to do. For
other people, it's simply not their cup of tea.
And so that's okay too. Strange it or not want
it because you can't really know if someone how
someone will respond So you really have no choice
but to interact with them and you have to try
and you know Feel it out. See what the reaction
is and then you have and engage yeah, I think
like just I Think like just going oh they said
no and then walking away is the perfect response
That's consent. Yeah, it is. It is the conversation
around consent That's it. So what I would be
curious to ask you is, and don't feel that you
need to answer, but I mean, how would you approach
the conversation? What kind of language do you
use? What is it that you want and how do you
communicate that? Yeah, that's great. I don't
even think about it because I'm avoiding it so
much. Just putting it out there, it would be
interesting. How would I do it? No, that's good
because... Like I'm out in the world and I see
be okay. Let's take okay. I the only kind of
socializing I do Lately just bad is bad I just
have time to go to the gym and that's it. And
so like for example, sometimes I might see people
who I think aren't Exercising in a good way or
like oh, they're doing something and I'm like,
oh that's gonna give you it's gonna be a shoulder
impingement and I'd I'd like to say listen not
to, you know, impose, but I think if you do what
you're doing, you're gonna hurt yourself. But
I won't even do that because I think they'll,
they might get offended or they might think,
oh, who's this creep? How dare you? I think,
and I think it comes to, from the current culture
and maybe even social media of people making
so much spectacle, so many videos, they just,
now they just take videos. Of course for views
where let's say for example, they're at the gym
and they're like, oh look at this guy He's looking
at me, but it's not really true. They're just
doing it To get views for entertainment, but
people do eventually think it's reality and so
that could be skewed So maybe one example, um
I guess another one for me is if I'm in public
And maybe I might see someone I'd like to approach.
I just wouldn't know what to say. What do you
say? I see in the West, you know, when I went
home in Canada in the summer, what I noticed
when I was out with my friend, she would always
be approached by other women, and they would
just always stop and say, oh, I just had to tell
you, your hair, I like it so much, or I just
had to tell you, I love what you're wearing.
That's something I see so often in Canada when
I go back, like just people coming up to people
and just complimenting them. I could do it. Maybe
I've been living here too long. I don't. And,
like, how would a person react if, like, maybe
I should try it. Maybe I should go up to a woman
and say, I think you're so pretty. Okay, bye.
But, like, how would they react? They go like,
ugh, get away from me. Weird. Why does it have
to start with a compliment though? I know, I'm
just curious. I don't know. Because even that
sounds canned. That is such a, like, that reminds
me of, like, now you're wandering into the territory
of, like, pickup artists and these men who just,
like, ooh. you know, asks things to women just
so they can engage in conversation and just snowballs.
You're carrying a lot of stuff, a lot of bad
behavior from other men that you feel responsible
in a way for it. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to say
something about compliments and so I've this,
I feel So privileged because I have this unique
experience of having lived on both sides. Right.
And, and one thing I can say is now passing this
strangest thing happened to me the other day,
just two days ago, I walked in, I was looking
for a t -shirt. Um, the school was supposed to
give us t -shirts. Okay. My t -shirt wasn't there.
And I was like, Hey, where are the teachers?
And she was like that. Um, so some other guy
teacher. some, some male teacher came to take
them. She was interacting with me because she,
I have to boy mode at school and she did not
clock me. So like, at least in China, I am continually
passing now. And the, the thing that I've noticed
is I get approached by women and, and my interactions
with the world are friendlier and I'm not always
sure. If it's me because I'm happier or because
I am no longer potentially seen as a threat.
And I think that, or whatever that is, and I
find it odd because I, and this goes for men
and women. I get approached in a more friendly
way, spoken to in a more friendly way and more
openly. Untrue. I know you. And I wonder if it's
real because like, yeah, I wonder if it's real.
I wonder if it comes, if it's internal. Like
I wear a smile now much more than I ever did
before. And I think maybe that's part of it.
Yeah. But probably I want to say that's what
it is. I think there is some truth to... how
you feel on the inside. Obviously it reflects
on the outside and that's how people will respond,
you know? So if you're wearing the smile and
you have an open energy, and I love talking about
things in terms of energy, right? Then there
will be a response to that, you know? Yeah. I
think, yeah. That has to do too with, like that
reminds me of like your posture. Like a person's
maybe like slouching forward The body holds the
body holds what's in the mind it's it's the fact
yeah, and people respond to that So then my question
is Why do so many men hold so much bad energy?
Because when you say that I'm thinking of men
acting quote -unquote mainly having this kind
of posture that is just so kind of like aggressive
and domineering. I see a lot here. Like the strutting.
Maybe they enjoy walking like that. Maybe. I
don't know. We'd have to understand them a little
bit more. It's very easy. Human beings, we make
up a lot of assumptions on face value based on
our own experiences of stuff. Yeah. I do think
that there's like a strong macho culture here,
but it's kind of permeated. I find Chinese culture
so interesting because they've got like these
complex levels to society that are clearly defined.
I feel like the society is quite clicky. And
with that, I want to thank Shay for coming onto
the podcast. I know you're quite busy and you
have other things to do. Thank you so much for
the time today. I'd love to carry on talking
because I feel like we're just getting started
actually. Well, just come back. There are more
times. I'm not going anywhere. In fact, no, I'm
the one that messed with the schedule a bit.
But what you were saying there about maybe just
more aware of it. That also is something very
curious to me, because there's a lot of talk
about, at the moment, about being an empath.
Have you heard that? Lots of people saying I'm
an empath around things. And whenever I hear
somebody saying they're an empath, I ask them,
or I think to myself, is that not type of vigilance
from a trauma response? And obviously that goes
into... um, codependent relationships where,
you know, you, you can't hold up a boundary because
you're an empath and you feel so deeply. But
anyway, that's a whole other different conversation.
Um, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Kaleidoscope
with Shay Rhys Davies, uh, sexologist, therapist,
and TRE provider. Um, if you want to speak to
Shay, you can find her at I can share this, right?
Yeah. You can find her at creating underscore
capacity with shang and you can find, you can
find kaleidoscope at a new URL for YouTube. It's
echo perspectives and on Instagram and fire from
heat on tech talk heat from fire. You can find
Luigi. anywhere you can find Kaleidoscope until
such point where he would like to share - Now
I'm brave enough to think my social media is
worth visiting. Um, thank you so much. So, and
you're welcome back anytime. Thank you very much
for having me, even though I was very nervous.
It takes me a while to warm up. That's fine.
That's usually how it goes. Like it's, it's really,
I don't want to say it's really awkward, but
you know. It develops momentum because we never
know how the guest is going to react or feel.
We don't want them to feel uncomfortable and
it just takes time. It always works out though,
we find. Hello internet. Thank you for listening
to that podcast. I had a lot of fun recording
it with Shay and during the podcast I said some
things. Before we wrap up, here's a quick fact
check to clear something I said earlier. I mentioned
this all -male warrior tribe in Africa and that
wasn't accurate. Across the continent, there
were male -only warrior societies like the Samburu
Muran. I'm probably just butchering this pronunciation.
Samburu Muran in Kenya and Amabutu regiments
under Shaka Zulu, but these were age set military
groups, not separate tribes. They trained, lived
and fought apart from the main body, but they
followed strict discipline and weren't intentionally
celibate. sexual things happening, but they weren't
inherently queer and I can't find any documentation
on that. But that being said, queerness absolutely
did exist in African cultures long before colonialism.
And some examples are Azande in the Congo and
South Sudan region. Early 20th century ethnographers
recorded warrior men taking younger male partners,
sometimes called boy wives. So yeah, we'll just
leave that there. Yan Daudu, Northern Nigeria,
gender non -conforming men within the Hausa society
who took on feminine roles. And Imbangala in
the 17th century Angola. Portuguese accounts
described elite warriors who kept male companions
among their wives. So there are some interesting
things for you. The other thing I mentioned was
a little bit of a questioning Luigi on The start
of purity culture. As we know today, the obsession
of sexual purity and abstinence, modesty, codes,
and moral surveillance is not ancient. It's largely
from the late 19th, 20th century. And American
evangelicalism, if that's what you call it. So
modern purity culture. abstinence pledges and
stuff really comes from the like 1980s 1990s
so it's even younger than I had originally anticipated
during the podcast so yeah anyway no no all -male
queer warrior tribes but yes African queer history
is absolutely real and I just wanted to make
sure that I make that clear yeah have a good
day I love you bye