WEBVTT

00:00:05.490 --> 00:00:09.689
Hello, dear listeners. Welcome to Kaleidoscope.

00:00:10.089 --> 00:00:15.289
My name is Ruby Ray Lio and today I am joined

00:00:15.289 --> 00:00:22.730
by my co -host Luigi and Nicole Alexander, Director

00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:28.390
of Fried Shelter Trust, the only LGBTQ shelter

00:00:28.390 --> 00:00:34.090
in South Africa. I am Ruby Ray Liu and I am what

00:00:34.090 --> 00:00:37.270
happens when you drive too fast on the highway

00:00:37.270 --> 00:00:40.590
while thinking about existential problems. Hello,

00:00:40.609 --> 00:00:46.009
I'm Luigi and I don't understand sesame seeds

00:00:46.009 --> 00:00:50.909
on bagels. It's just so cumbersome. They just

00:00:50.909 --> 00:00:53.950
always flake off. I hate it. I bought, let me

00:00:53.950 --> 00:00:57.049
tell you, I bought a bag of multigrain bagels

00:00:57.049 --> 00:01:01.219
and I was excited for it. because of multigrain,

00:01:01.340 --> 00:01:04.939
just not plain white. But it was all riddled

00:01:04.939 --> 00:01:07.640
with sesame seeds and stuff. And they just don't

00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:10.060
fall off. And it's just a mess to clean up. Anyway,

00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.060
that's my beef. Do you think that we're making

00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:19.079
bagels wrong? And that's why? We've lost the

00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:23.819
original recipe? I think, no, I think there's

00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:28.659
just, in late capitalism, such a necessity to...

00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:33.219
create novelty, that it just makes things even

00:01:33.219 --> 00:01:36.159
more frustrating and inconvenient. You got to

00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:38.459
sell your bagels. Oh, let's put some things that

00:01:38.459 --> 00:01:42.579
fall off on them. And thus we have Sesame Seed

00:01:42.579 --> 00:01:47.840
covered bagels. Very nice. Nicole, welcome. Thank

00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.780
you. Oh, my goodness. I'm holding my loft here.

00:01:51.060 --> 00:01:55.379
But yeah, very interesting thought, Luigi. And

00:01:55.379 --> 00:01:58.209
I love bagels, actually. So I've been looking

00:01:58.209 --> 00:02:05.109
at it very differently now. Sure. I love adrenaline,

00:02:05.829 --> 00:02:10.430
like speed and motorbikes. But the funny story

00:02:10.430 --> 00:02:15.310
is I don't drive. But that adrenaline of just

00:02:15.310 --> 00:02:18.490
speed for me is just, yeah, that's something

00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:21.830
that does to my soul that is just like, oh, and

00:02:21.830 --> 00:02:24.090
then when you get off that high, it's like, okay,

00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:26.909
I've done it. you know but I don't even drive

00:02:26.909 --> 00:02:28.949
I don't even sit behind a wheel I don't even

00:02:28.949 --> 00:02:34.509
go on a motorbike and I have my reasons why but

00:02:34.509 --> 00:02:37.389
that's just the adrenaline of just seeing that

00:02:37.389 --> 00:02:41.009
speed for me is like oh okay this is what life

00:02:41.009 --> 00:02:45.629
is about but then afterwards it's also just the

00:02:45.629 --> 00:02:48.430
chill moment the moment of just relaxing and

00:02:48.430 --> 00:02:52.830
just saying oh I made it through you know But

00:02:52.830 --> 00:02:56.889
yeah, it's just a wild thought that I sometimes

00:02:56.889 --> 00:03:02.009
just look at life in that way. But yeah, this

00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:06.509
is who I am. Thinking of really weird things,

00:03:06.650 --> 00:03:11.449
but also like how we can incorporate it to your

00:03:11.449 --> 00:03:16.210
own journey. Nicole Alexander has a parasocial

00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:21.569
relationship with adrenaline and speed. Motorbikes.

00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:25.229
And random motorbikes. Yeah. And just watching

00:03:25.229 --> 00:03:28.789
them. Excellent. Do you just like sit in a lawn

00:03:28.789 --> 00:03:31.509
chair on the road and just watch them go by?

00:03:32.409 --> 00:03:37.490
Yeah. It's wild. It's wild. That's pretty cool.

00:03:37.490 --> 00:03:39.449
That's what I want to talk about today. So let's

00:03:39.449 --> 00:03:42.770
keep that in mind. Put a pin in that. Write it

00:03:42.770 --> 00:03:45.409
down. Really good. All right. Well, okay. Well,

00:03:45.990 --> 00:03:54.509
yeah. Nicole, you have a perspective, opinion,

00:03:54.750 --> 00:03:56.930
something to share with us today. Well, I should

00:03:56.930 --> 00:04:01.990
actually say today we are talking about the idea,

00:04:02.150 --> 00:04:06.169
the concept of perseverance. Not right. And I'd

00:04:06.169 --> 00:04:11.930
like to invite you to lead the way. Sure. Okay.

00:04:12.090 --> 00:04:24.259
Wow. This theme and just the conversations, it's

00:04:24.259 --> 00:04:28.439
deep. It's not like an everyday cup of tea conversations,

00:04:28.579 --> 00:04:32.379
but it's also just what we as an organization,

00:04:32.420 --> 00:04:37.639
but also myself, my own personal story is how

00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:42.740
do you shift from a state of emergency and survival

00:04:42.939 --> 00:04:46.860
to one of long -term healing and genuine living.

00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:49.699
And I think that for me is where the resilience

00:04:49.699 --> 00:04:53.139
and the perseverance come in, is understanding

00:04:53.139 --> 00:04:57.620
where you are right now and acknowledging how

00:04:57.620 --> 00:05:01.860
far you've come. Because a lot of my own personal

00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:06.279
story was understanding what I needed to go through

00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.939
to get to a point where I needed healing for

00:05:09.939 --> 00:05:14.680
myself. why I needed to understand what makes

00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.620
me call Nicole despite what society has said

00:05:18.620 --> 00:05:23.980
to me or the way I was brought up in the family

00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:29.459
and around religious beliefs specifically is

00:05:29.459 --> 00:05:33.480
taking those values, but not adding all of them,

00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:36.420
but making it your own so that one day I'm able

00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:41.480
to teach it and able to fully love. That's the

00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:46.879
thing about undiscovering who you are, is once

00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:51.000
you discover that either potential or your values,

00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:54.699
you are able to live into it fully. And it takes

00:05:54.699 --> 00:05:59.680
a while to get there. Not everybody is able or

00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.220
open to that healing process. And I think that

00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:05.319
is where the perseverance and the resilience

00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.339
come in, is how willing are we as human beings?

00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:18.420
as human beings willing to fully go through that

00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:22.699
process work of healing. And this is the crux

00:06:22.699 --> 00:06:27.379
of our work, is taking an individual and understanding

00:06:27.379 --> 00:06:30.560
their story, but also meeting them where they're

00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:36.639
at. Because to understand this individual in

00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:38.930
terms of and I'm going to take it back to my

00:06:38.930 --> 00:06:44.589
own story is before I started this work, my background

00:06:44.589 --> 00:06:47.769
is community work, but specifically around youth,

00:06:48.329 --> 00:06:52.149
young people in South Africa and myself being

00:06:52.149 --> 00:06:57.490
part of the youth bracket. I wanted to do things

00:06:57.490 --> 00:07:00.230
differently. I wanted to challenge things that

00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:03.089
I needed to understand because what was relevant

00:07:03.089 --> 00:07:05.639
for me when I was younger, it's not relevant.

00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:07.800
Some of the things not relevant to me today.

00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.120
But that's all part of the growth process. If

00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.600
nothing has changed, you didn't grow. If nothing

00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:16.319
has changed in my life, I didn't grow. And what

00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:19.939
did I do in that time? So I needed to, for myself

00:07:19.939 --> 00:07:22.740
to understand what it means to go through that

00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:29.660
healing process and come up on the other side

00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:32.329
and saying, look, This is my intentions. This

00:07:32.329 --> 00:07:34.990
is my mission. This is my calling. And how am

00:07:34.990 --> 00:07:39.569
I going to make this happen? Not just for myself,

00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.170
because what I do is not for me. It's for the

00:07:42.170 --> 00:07:44.569
people that come after me. It's for the young

00:07:44.569 --> 00:07:48.029
people that comes after me. But there's lessons

00:07:48.029 --> 00:07:51.329
that I can teach. I can't teach something I haven't

00:07:51.329 --> 00:07:55.910
gone through. And this is kind of the culture

00:07:55.910 --> 00:08:01.750
that we... Yeah, we practice at the shelter from

00:08:01.750 --> 00:08:06.310
the team to the board that we walk the talk.

00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:09.689
And if we see that someone is struggling and

00:08:09.689 --> 00:08:12.490
we ask what's happening, yes, the work's important,

00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:16.629
but as a leader, as someone who has a mission

00:08:16.629 --> 00:08:22.769
to shift things in society and challenge things

00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:26.050
in society, we as a team need to go through those

00:08:26.050 --> 00:08:28.410
growing pains, if you want to put it that way.

00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:35.009
um and yeah persevering and and and sacrificing

00:08:35.009 --> 00:08:40.330
um is part of the process so for us it's important

00:08:40.330 --> 00:08:43.590
to know what is our intentions what is our goals

00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:45.730
what are we trying to achieve because if one

00:08:45.730 --> 00:08:51.610
has that um clearly set out the rest of the thing

00:08:51.610 --> 00:08:56.149
the rest of what the universe does You would

00:08:56.149 --> 00:08:59.230
just end up seeing things happening when we start

00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:01.769
to meet new people that want to support the work.

00:09:02.929 --> 00:09:07.330
In my own story, part of my healing was I needed

00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:11.330
to go for therapy. And just on that point around

00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:15.509
therapy, before when I was a teenager, right

00:09:15.509 --> 00:09:21.129
into university, I never understood the importance

00:09:21.129 --> 00:09:24.769
of mental health. I never understood um what

00:09:24.769 --> 00:09:33.250
it means to fully heal um from from words or

00:09:33.250 --> 00:09:37.210
from actions from people that didn't value my

00:09:37.210 --> 00:09:39.990
existence and that's where my own narrative needed

00:09:39.990 --> 00:09:44.850
to change um so it was getting you know new information

00:09:44.850 --> 00:09:48.009
and and and meeting new people and that allowed

00:09:48.009 --> 00:09:51.129
me to shift my thinking um but it was all in

00:09:51.129 --> 00:09:54.950
line to working towards the bigger picture, the

00:09:54.950 --> 00:09:59.009
bigger intention, the bigger goal. And from there,

00:09:59.250 --> 00:10:01.409
once I realized, okay, this is what I was going

00:10:01.409 --> 00:10:05.789
to do, this is what I needed to do, I now had

00:10:05.789 --> 00:10:08.889
a clear set plan of how I can need to act with

00:10:08.889 --> 00:10:10.710
people, especially people that are supporting

00:10:10.710 --> 00:10:17.730
our work. Part of the resilience and the perseverance,

00:10:17.990 --> 00:10:23.379
we also speak about transformation. transformation

00:10:23.379 --> 00:10:26.700
that has an element of enduring those growing

00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:32.379
pains. So it's about reshaping and rebuilding

00:10:32.379 --> 00:10:37.960
and recreating your story, reclaiming your story,

00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.620
reclaiming your narrative, reclaiming your identity,

00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:43.799
reclaiming what your future is going to look

00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:45.740
like or what your present is currently looking

00:10:45.740 --> 00:10:51.110
like. And we do it. And the way that we intentionally

00:10:51.110 --> 00:10:55.730
do it is around active process of transformation.

00:10:56.889 --> 00:10:59.809
And that means that it's important that we operate

00:10:59.809 --> 00:11:04.789
from a people -orientated approach. So when someone

00:11:04.789 --> 00:11:07.529
steps into our space, we ask you, what are your

00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:10.789
pronouns? In what room do you want to sleep in?

00:11:10.929 --> 00:11:13.950
Because that also creates this element of dignity

00:11:13.950 --> 00:11:18.009
and restoring what it means to be kind. to each

00:11:18.009 --> 00:11:22.570
other. Simple activities, simple ways of interacting

00:11:22.570 --> 00:11:25.629
as people, but this is what we lost. This is

00:11:25.629 --> 00:11:29.370
what people have lost because of what society

00:11:29.370 --> 00:11:32.309
has said, because of what people have placed

00:11:32.309 --> 00:11:35.049
the LGBT community in a box. And you're allowed

00:11:35.049 --> 00:11:37.070
to do this, you're not allowed to do that. But

00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:39.470
for us, our core focus around that transformation

00:11:39.470 --> 00:11:42.230
is around reclaiming your story, embracing your

00:11:42.230 --> 00:11:46.330
identity, and building what your new future looks

00:11:46.330 --> 00:11:53.440
like. So yeah, I can say more, but I also want

00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.000
to hear what we, if you've got add on to what

00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.259
I've just currently said, because I also want

00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:04.019
to go into what we call the art of presence,

00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:07.799
but in trauma -informed care. And that goes more

00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:12.080
into the details of how we work with our residents.

00:12:12.659 --> 00:12:16.879
But applying it to my own life, 100%. I practice

00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:26.419
what I preach and I learn along the way and that

00:12:26.419 --> 00:12:31.259
in essence, that's how we are supposed to interact

00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:35.000
as human beings. And this is what we teach our

00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.419
residents. Yes, they add a shelter, but don't

00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:43.960
let the space define what your story is. We are

00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:49.379
just here as a catalyst. to um to guide you and

00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:52.539
and to kind of say look it was okay that you're

00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:54.940
going through this it's okay that you know stuff

00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.379
has happened and here's another way of looking

00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:02.059
at your situation here's another way of tackling

00:13:02.059 --> 00:13:03.960
your challenges because eventually they're going

00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.639
to have to leave the shelter and face similar

00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:10.340
challenges um so it's getting ready with the

00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:12.679
tools that or the new tools that they've gotten

00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:15.480
and say look this is how i am And no matter what

00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:19.860
the world says or do, I have new weapons of how

00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:25.779
I can tackle these challenges. And these tools

00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:34.600
are not created to create division. It's about,

00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:40.070
again, the tools. Firstly, it's around who am

00:13:40.070 --> 00:13:44.809
I as an individual. So we tackle elements around

00:13:44.809 --> 00:13:47.889
development. So what it means to be human. Take

00:13:47.889 --> 00:13:51.830
it back to basics. What does it mean to be a

00:13:51.830 --> 00:13:53.929
person in this world? What does it mean to exist

00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:58.289
in this world? And how do we connect that element

00:13:58.289 --> 00:14:04.730
to nature? So we use nature also as a tool for

00:14:04.730 --> 00:14:07.320
healing. Because there's always connections.

00:14:07.659 --> 00:14:11.600
Nature can teach us different tools of how we

00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:15.820
can heal. It can also teach us things about how

00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:18.639
to take care of ourselves, how to take care of

00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:23.320
others, and also how to let go. So nature also

00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.500
goes through this process of the different seasons.

00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.320
So as people, what season are you in right now?

00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.759
What do I need to let go of that has served me

00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:36.789
anymore, you know? Yeah. I think Ray, I lost

00:14:36.789 --> 00:14:48.289
Ray here. Oh, there you are. It's just a little

00:14:48.289 --> 00:15:02.450
echo. I'm yearning. I'm okay. I want to know.

00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:07.080
What was your turning point? Was there a moment

00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.179
in your life that went from, I've been doing

00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:14.779
- Wow. I think if you've met me four years ago,

00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:19.159
five years ago, I was in that space. The shifting.

00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:24.700
Okay. So yes, I was. It was actually when I started

00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:30.679
at Pride Shelter. Coming into the space, coming

00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:33.730
into the sector. around homelessness, specifically

00:15:33.730 --> 00:15:37.169
working with the LGBT community. I came in very

00:15:37.169 --> 00:15:41.669
naive and I came in with a mindset of, oh, there's

00:15:41.669 --> 00:15:45.169
rainbows and unicorns and love is love and there's

00:15:45.169 --> 00:15:48.190
no hate in the world. But in reality, in this

00:15:48.190 --> 00:15:52.629
country, it was the total opposite. And being

00:15:52.629 --> 00:15:56.490
a person, a queer person in South Africa, it

00:15:56.490 --> 00:16:01.809
was a huge shock because That's not how the world

00:16:01.809 --> 00:16:04.710
should operate but I was in my own bubble and

00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:08.710
and life just gave me so many lessons Firstly

00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:11.529
is was understanding the sector needed. I need

00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:15.330
to understand What is homelessness? What does

00:16:15.330 --> 00:16:19.110
it mean? Looking for research that's available

00:16:19.110 --> 00:16:21.269
in South Africa around homelessness looking for

00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:23.629
research that's available around homelessness

00:16:23.629 --> 00:16:28.070
specifically for the LGBT community and it was

00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:33.779
a struggle for me to find some sort of starting

00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:37.500
point. And at that time, the organization was

00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:42.460
also at a stage of transitioning from previous

00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:45.379
management into new management. So there was

00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.419
a lot going on. But at the same time, we were

00:16:49.419 --> 00:16:52.440
also hit with COVID. And that for me was my breaking

00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:57.600
point. It was just a moment. It's like if one

00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.110
more thing just lands on my plate. I'm going

00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:04.109
to die. That's how bad it was. But I needed to

00:17:04.109 --> 00:17:10.190
understand that I needed to be okay to lead this

00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:13.369
organization. I needed to understand what am

00:17:13.369 --> 00:17:17.829
I still holding onto that I'm not able to move

00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:23.170
forward? What am I not seeing that other people

00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:25.829
are seeing, but this work still needs to continue?

00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:33.410
I went on... There was a moment where I resigned

00:17:33.410 --> 00:17:37.589
because I wasn't getting any support from the

00:17:37.589 --> 00:17:42.130
board back then. I was like, I can't do this

00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:44.509
alone and I'm not getting any support from people

00:17:44.509 --> 00:17:47.890
that brought me in to do this work. And I said,

00:17:48.069 --> 00:17:50.809
I'm done, I'm finished. And the moment I did

00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:53.250
that, I think everybody just got a wake up call

00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:57.490
because who's going to lead and... run this organization

00:17:57.490 --> 00:18:02.809
if management is going, you know, and this is

00:18:02.809 --> 00:18:07.170
such important work that I was like, I can do

00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:10.589
it somewhere else. But deep down in my soul,

00:18:10.589 --> 00:18:13.569
I was like, okay, maybe I'm just being tested,

00:18:13.569 --> 00:18:17.609
you know, maybe I need to just stay a little

00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:21.710
bit and just stick it out. But something profound

00:18:21.710 --> 00:18:26.000
really happened in those meetings. with the board

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.539
and I was just like, if things don't change on

00:18:29.539 --> 00:18:34.180
this level, I can do something else. Because

00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:36.500
at that stage in my life, I was also ready to

00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:41.279
leave South Africa and do community work in another

00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.059
country, but also the safety in this country

00:18:44.059 --> 00:18:50.799
was just getting too much. And then I didn't

00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:59.329
feel the support. But then between 2021 and 2022,

00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:02.369
I made a decision, okay, let me just take a little

00:19:02.369 --> 00:19:04.750
bit of a break. Let me step back and understand

00:19:04.750 --> 00:19:07.750
what is my intention coming into this space?

00:19:07.930 --> 00:19:10.470
What am I going to do? What do I need to let

00:19:10.470 --> 00:19:17.849
go of? And I had an opportunity to go on a rites

00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:20.230
of passage, which is also known as a vision quest.

00:19:21.549 --> 00:19:24.740
But this was also just an experience that I'm

00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:28.259
very familiar with from my previous work. And

00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:31.599
this is the process or one of the tools where

00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.799
we use nature for healing and we use nature to

00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:40.680
reconnect with ourselves. And that process was,

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.920
for me, a turning point, personally, but also

00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:49.700
professionally. And it took me on an experiential

00:19:49.700 --> 00:19:55.710
learning Process where I really had to wait.

00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:59.589
Yeah, we are really had to unpack What was going

00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:02.910
on with myself mentally what was going on myself

00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:05.529
physically spiritually and everything that makes

00:20:05.529 --> 00:20:10.190
us human what makes me human and letting go because

00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:12.890
I was sitting with a lot of frustration I was

00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:16.009
sitting with a lot of sadness and I think I was

00:20:16.009 --> 00:20:21.029
going to head into depression because of I said

00:20:21.369 --> 00:20:24.930
a big expectation for this work, but things were

00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.970
not going according to plan. So then what the

00:20:27.970 --> 00:20:30.230
universe did, it gave me a big wake -up call.

00:20:30.650 --> 00:20:36.630
So I needed to re -evaluate a lot of my own values

00:20:36.630 --> 00:20:41.710
and what makes me me because whatever I'm going

00:20:41.710 --> 00:20:44.470
to discover about myself, it's going to have

00:20:44.470 --> 00:20:46.950
to be displayed in the organization. It has to

00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:52.960
be taught or a mentor or practice, um, within

00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.400
pride shelter. So when I came out of that nine,

00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:02.420
nine days experience, um, I showed up with an

00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:06.079
intention and that intention is speaking around,

00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.619
you know, this is who I am. So I am a spiritual,

00:21:09.619 --> 00:21:14.140
you know, a spiritual woman. I am a leader. Um,

00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:19.690
I am a person who heals. can be healed so it's

00:21:19.690 --> 00:21:22.130
being open not just to my own personal story

00:21:22.130 --> 00:21:25.250
but to the wider context of you know working

00:21:25.250 --> 00:21:28.210
and contributing to society and the moment I

00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:30.150
had that clear intention and a clear purpose

00:21:30.150 --> 00:21:32.890
and I'm like okay now the work's going to start

00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:36.109
and I kid you not the moment I came back out

00:21:36.109 --> 00:21:39.529
of the mountains and came back to work things

00:21:39.529 --> 00:21:42.049
automatically just started falling into place

00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:47.660
and therefore me I had to also acknowledge the

00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:51.099
staff because they allowed me to go into those

00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:56.039
spaces of, you know, taking care of myself, taking

00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:00.799
care of not only what I'm going to contribute

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:06.819
to this organization, but the key and the understanding

00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:15.299
of giving me this time off and recharging. Just

00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:17.119
saying thank you to them because now that I've

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.279
come back, I come back with new thinking, I come

00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:26.579
back with new ideas. So even to this year or

00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:30.940
even whenever I go and leave, the staff always

00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:33.140
make fun of me, saying like, oh, so you have

00:22:33.140 --> 00:22:35.279
new ideas? Now we're going to have more work.

00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:39.519
But that is just because of just taking a little

00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:41.839
break, stepping back from the work, stepping

00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.539
back from the course and saying, okay. Let me

00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:52.859
just re -evaluate. Am I still relevant? Or are

00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:56.799
we still relevant doing this? Oh no. Do you have

00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.140
some questions first? I think I need clarification

00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:03.180
with because sometimes I don't pay attention.

00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:06.859
I know a lot. Ruby knows a lot. She knows a lot

00:23:06.859 --> 00:23:08.480
about Pride Shelter. Yeah, she knows a lot about

00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.059
Pride Shelter but I think it's important we ask

00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:13.140
these on camera because maybe the viewers will

00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:17.460
know. So Pride Shelter Trust, not your invention.

00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:22.440
You joined and it's the only one. Not mine. Okay.

00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.799
When did it start? So it started in 2011. Okay.

00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:31.880
And I only started at Pride Shelter in 2019.

00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:35.660
Right. But before I knew this organization existed.

00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.000
Yeah. Yeah. So how did you discover it? I came

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.980
through a friend, a friend and a friend. Okay.

00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.460
Um, at the end of 2018, I mean, like I was mentioning

00:23:46.460 --> 00:23:48.339
earlier, and I was ready to leave South Africa

00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:52.160
and just take a little bit of a break. Um, but

00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.460
then this opportunity came, well, not Prychalter,

00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:01.000
I was supposed to originally, um, manage a gay

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:04.240
Muslim organization called the Inner Circle,

00:24:04.259 --> 00:24:08.519
also known as Al -Fitra. And then Al -Fitra Foundation

00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.519
took over Pride Shelter in 2018. So when I signed

00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.519
up for work, for this work, I didn't know that

00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.660
Al -Fitra was part of Pride Shelter. So then

00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:21.720
I couldn't manage two organizations and I had

00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.880
to strategically look at, let me work on something

00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:29.240
that's tangible and what people can see. And

00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:33.160
I went for Pride Shelter. So the Muslim Gay Organization,

00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:39.859
is currently on pause. Yeah, so my energy is

00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:43.039
fully invested with Bright Shelter. Fair, yeah,

00:24:43.059 --> 00:24:47.859
okay. I guess, and I guess this is more statistic,

00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:52.559
but what do you think the main reason for LGBT

00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:58.680
people seeking out shelter? Specifically LGBT.

00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:01.319
Well, the people who come to your shelter, what's

00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:02.900
their main reason? Because, you know, I have

00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:05.259
my suspicions based on, you know, what I know,

00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:09.900
like let's say the history of queer people needing

00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:13.779
shelter in America. And I'm just wondering if

00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:16.980
it's the same. So, you know, the main reason

00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:22.079
I find is that, you know, they're kind of abandoned

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:24.140
by their families when they come out and they've

00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:28.099
got nowhere else to go. And luckily these shelters,

00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:30.430
Exist and I'm just wondering if the dynamics

00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:34.130
Are the same? Yeah. No, thank you for that question

00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:38.190
So in South Africa because we are so diverse

00:25:38.190 --> 00:25:41.549
with cultures and traditions And if you're looking

00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:45.029
at the broader African continent same thing very

00:25:45.029 --> 00:25:48.789
diverse different cultures So some of the reasons

00:25:48.789 --> 00:25:51.849
When I'm speaking for our foreign nationals that

00:25:51.849 --> 00:25:54.650
we serve they come to South Africa. They run

00:25:54.650 --> 00:25:57.190
for their lives They run because they came up

00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:00.559
to their families and they're going to be killed

00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.619
by their families. That's one of the major reasons

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:05.759
our foreign nationals come to South Africa. But

00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.799
also with the hope of they will receive safety

00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.460
in South Africa because of our constitution that

00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.220
protects us as LGBT, well supposed to protect

00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:19.319
us as LGBT community. When I look at South Africans,

00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:24.890
Similar story running for your life because of

00:26:24.890 --> 00:26:28.109
you know violence within family and because it's

00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:32.430
not accepted religious beliefs and traditions

00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:36.690
And and people just wanting to have a sense of

00:26:36.690 --> 00:26:41.309
belonging so we have Individuals that has been

00:26:41.309 --> 00:26:44.250
shelter hopping and just wanting to feel safe

00:26:44.250 --> 00:26:50.859
not just at home, but because they wanting to

00:26:50.859 --> 00:26:54.720
find a reason to exist. So shelter hopping, going

00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.220
from one shelter to the next, there's no other

00:26:57.220 --> 00:27:02.420
shelter that speaks about, you know, how to,

00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.660
that there's no other shelter here that would

00:27:05.660 --> 00:27:08.500
ask you, okay, so what room would you want to

00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:11.220
be, what you want to sleep in or how do you identify

00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:15.519
as? It's traditionally male, female. The other

00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:25.440
reasons that we've had is people wanting to live

00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:31.299
in their full potential, but because of the homophobic

00:27:31.299 --> 00:27:36.079
and just exclusion from society, that they're

00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:42.759
so discouraged that they don't want to grow further.

00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:46.119
They've just been knocked down with so many rejection.

00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:48.920
that they just give up and that would lead to

00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.859
suicide and that would lead to ending up homeless.

00:27:51.940 --> 00:27:55.400
That would lead to surviving on the streets and

00:27:55.400 --> 00:28:01.000
just getting by. So yeah, that's the main reasons

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.839
why people come to the shelter. One of the things

00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:09.099
that I have always wondered is if somebody finds

00:28:09.099 --> 00:28:12.960
himself on the street, some place that I have

00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:19.240
felt myself potentially close to being within

00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:24.259
the last two years. How do they find you? Because

00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:29.880
I had the resources to look, right? I am not

00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:36.839
in a place of poverty or desperation. But if

00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.799
you are, if you lose your phone, if you don't

00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:46.259
have access to the internet, How does this happen

00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:53.319
to find someone? So we depend a lot on referrals,

00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.299
so we don't just take from the street and recruit.

00:28:57.259 --> 00:28:59.500
So it's important for us to go through a referral

00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:03.079
process. And specifically for those who don't

00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.000
have technology access to sending us an email

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:11.640
or WhatsApp, the government... which is the Department

00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.400
of Social Development, which is one of our partners,

00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.000
is going to their offices and explaining a situation

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:20.880
and they would refer them to us because they

00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.720
have their own screening process. And the first

00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.240
thing we'll ask, do they belong to the LGBT community?

00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:30.980
If it's not through government, it will be through

00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:34.460
our other partners, other queer organizations

00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:38.799
that work with individuals. with the queer individuals.

00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:44.099
And again, same process. You apply to get into

00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:47.579
the space because it's so limited. And in the

00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.539
social worker, she has to do a screening and

00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:53.640
an interview because she has to understand what

00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.380
is she going to work with for the next three

00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:57.140
months because that's the period how long you

00:29:57.140 --> 00:30:00.619
stay at the shelter. And not only that, she also

00:30:00.619 --> 00:30:03.579
has to be aware of the safety of the other people

00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:08.240
in the house when taking on a new person. So

00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.920
yeah, it's referrals, it's word of mouth. And

00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.960
for those that have what we've experienced, especially

00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:20.480
in the rural areas and spaces where, you know,

00:30:20.500 --> 00:30:25.640
technology is a challenge. If people are in need,

00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.299
in desperate need, they would make, they would

00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:30.839
go to the ends of the earth, even walking. So

00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.970
we've had people that Either borrowed money to

00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:37.009
get to the shelter or simple for example our

00:30:37.009 --> 00:30:40.630
foreign nationals Fleeing from either Ghana or

00:30:40.630 --> 00:30:42.809
Tanzania or any of these countries coming to

00:30:42.809 --> 00:30:45.769
Cape Town specifically and if you hear this story

00:30:45.769 --> 00:30:49.650
like My problem is so small. You know, like the

00:30:49.650 --> 00:30:54.410
hurdles that and and all of that and then Yeah,

00:30:54.410 --> 00:30:57.549
so so for us is important that the referral system

00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:02.119
is in place because of our limited space that

00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.299
we have available. On the other hand, of how

00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:10.839
we flip that script is challenging shelters that's

00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:13.400
been operating for the last 20 years the same.

00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:17.740
Changing your policy according to the constitution

00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:20.400
because as a shelter, as a private shelter, we

00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.859
cannot do this alone. How long are you going

00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:26.900
to operate, you know, male -female? How long

00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:30.039
are you going to operate from a point of recycling

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.339
homelessness, allowing people to come back to

00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:34.779
the system. And what do they learn? What have

00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:39.240
they learned? So yeah, I hope I'm answering your

00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.940
question. There's more to unpack there. I have

00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:46.119
a lot more questions. So you've mentioned a couple

00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.500
of times male -female space, which is obviously

00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:54.319
quite close to my heart, not because I actually

00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:59.079
face adversity. Um, where we are for me, it's

00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:05.400
very easy to, um, go to the right bathroom for

00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:10.279
instance. And you mentioned, um, where, when

00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:14.559
somebody comes into the, into the shelter, you

00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.319
ask them which room they want to sleep in. And

00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:20.500
I'm not asking this for me. I'm asking this for

00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:25.839
the listener who might be. questioning from a

00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:32.440
place of fear about men in women's spaces, very

00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:38.740
big inverted commas. How do you find that narrative

00:32:38.740 --> 00:32:43.680
affecting the people within the shelter and maybe

00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.450
from others? shelters that you speak to, to try

00:32:47.450 --> 00:32:51.609
and change their policy to be more gender inclusive.

00:32:51.930 --> 00:32:56.250
Sure. How do I answer this? That's a big one.

00:32:58.869 --> 00:33:03.470
I think it all comes back to what is the culture

00:33:03.470 --> 00:33:11.509
and the ethos of what you practice in your workspace.

00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:15.740
So for us as a team, it's important that we create

00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:23.980
that safe container where we create just that

00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:29.640
energy of saying, oh, people here. So it's important

00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:33.960
for us as a team to be constantly trained into

00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.240
not being judgmental. What does it mean to be

00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.819
people -orientated? What does it mean when someone

00:33:39.819 --> 00:33:44.440
is experiencing a crisis? So for us as a team,

00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:48.519
for me specifically, it's operating from a point

00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:51.460
of calmness and non -judgmental and realizing,

00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:54.599
just working with people and with their fears

00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:58.619
and this is where their story is right now. And

00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:01.160
it comes back to that thing of meeting people

00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:06.319
where they're at. So if I put myself in this

00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:11.679
story is, During that years of when I had a little

00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.480
bit of a mental breakdown, I went for therapy,

00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.699
but I went to the government facilities because

00:34:16.699 --> 00:34:22.079
it's free. And the psychologist that was supposed

00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.420
to hear my story, my first question was, which

00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:27.480
I was just like shocked. They asked me, what

00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:32.960
does LGBT stand for? And that for me was not

00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:39.789
only shocking, but that was 2003. And I'm sitting

00:34:39.789 --> 00:34:41.690
in that office and I'm like, I want to share

00:34:41.690 --> 00:34:43.949
what's on my heart and how I'm feeling. But this

00:34:43.949 --> 00:34:46.510
person doesn't even know what LGBT stands for.

00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:49.429
And I left the room. And then I have to think

00:34:49.429 --> 00:34:51.829
about what residents have to go through when

00:34:51.829 --> 00:34:54.190
they access these government spaces or spaces

00:34:54.190 --> 00:34:56.489
where you're supposed to feel safe, where you're

00:34:56.489 --> 00:35:00.150
supposed to feel like you belong. And I just

00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:06.000
left. And that is where I was like, what? If

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.340
we're going to focus on psychosocial support

00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:11.820
at this organization, this is not what I want

00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:15.179
our residents to experience. And if they do access

00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:18.199
our government facilities or facilities that's

00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:22.920
free, we can challenge it in a way that it's

00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.420
not going to be defensive, but in a way where

00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:29.320
we can skill people, where we can skill our health

00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:32.679
care system, where we can skill our partners

00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.199
that run shelters. um because it's just a bit

00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.940
of new information it's just like hey come on

00:35:39.940 --> 00:35:44.019
we're not we're not living here in in in in the

00:35:44.019 --> 00:35:47.099
years of you know not having access we've got

00:35:47.099 --> 00:35:51.340
loads of access but who is who's who's more who

00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:55.719
has um the privilege to access that information

00:35:55.719 --> 00:36:02.059
and and resources so that for me Was where we

00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:04.760
had to create what does it mean as a team to

00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:06.860
create that safe container for our residents?

00:36:08.219 --> 00:36:11.000
Is showing them that respect we respect ourselves.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.000
This is how we show respect to you Because once

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.059
they leave the shelter They have to understand

00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.260
this is what it means to be human again, you

00:36:20.260 --> 00:36:22.579
know Yes, you're going and we're going to be

00:36:22.579 --> 00:36:26.179
challenged with for example the the bathroom

00:36:26.179 --> 00:36:30.409
situation That's constantly going to happen once

00:36:30.409 --> 00:36:37.369
they go to work. And do you want to cause a scene

00:36:37.369 --> 00:36:40.309
because of you can't go into that bathroom, but

00:36:40.309 --> 00:36:43.869
let's challenge what the system has put you in.

00:36:44.349 --> 00:36:47.309
The system can be changed. I think it's because

00:36:47.309 --> 00:36:51.489
of the fear of not having the support because

00:36:51.489 --> 00:36:54.489
it's only you alone. And if you have backup,

00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:57.099
the right backup. the backup that's going to

00:36:57.099 --> 00:37:00.320
make the right noise. I'm not here to break things

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.679
down. I'm not here to, you know, burn a tire.

00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:05.360
Well, that people do that, but there's creative

00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.099
ways of to get your message across. And there's

00:37:09.099 --> 00:37:14.139
new information that you can challenge the system.

00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:19.239
So that is what we teach. That is what we, yeah,

00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:23.960
we try to just shift a little bit of that mindset.

00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.869
Yeah. Yeah. I think Naweiji definitely has a

00:37:29.869 --> 00:37:34.789
few more questions. Yeah, not so, not so... Actually,

00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:38.289
no, I do have, I do have, okay. So earlier you

00:37:38.289 --> 00:37:41.670
mentioned that, you know, you said change equals,

00:37:41.949 --> 00:37:46.929
you know, change equals, you said change equals

00:37:46.929 --> 00:37:49.969
growth, but I have to wonder, does all change

00:37:49.969 --> 00:37:53.369
really equal growth, even bad change? Or is it...

00:37:53.150 --> 00:37:55.730
Do you think that or lord do both of you think

00:37:55.730 --> 00:37:58.889
that you know, you have to make an active choice

00:37:58.889 --> 00:38:03.369
to look for I Guess the growth in that change

00:38:03.369 --> 00:38:06.409
there's something bad happens to you. I know

00:38:06.409 --> 00:38:09.030
people might say when you're in bad situations

00:38:09.030 --> 00:38:13.630
that You know, yes, you do go through growth

00:38:13.630 --> 00:38:17.860
but I don't know. I don't, I don't think that's

00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:19.679
always the case. No, you're absolutely right.

00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.000
You're absolutely right. And I think that's up

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:29.980
to, you know, up to the individual because whatever

00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:33.420
choice you have, whatever choice you make, you

00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:35.480
got to live with the consequences, whether good

00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:40.360
or bad. Um, and this is just my own experience

00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.820
is that whatever choice I've made, I have to

00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:44.820
know that I'm going to live with it. I cannot

00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:47.099
blame the next person because I know that I made

00:38:47.099 --> 00:38:51.079
that decision based on XYZ. And I made a lot

00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.159
of bad decisions, you know, but it's always for

00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:57.800
me to find, yes, I've gone through that shitty

00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.840
moment, sorry for my language, but what did I

00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:06.139
learn out of that? Sorry, I don't know. Yeah,

00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:13.179
I don't want to use too much. Okay. I'm a good

00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:17.860
boy. I don't swear on camera. I've caught him

00:39:17.860 --> 00:39:21.760
only once on camera. Yeah, and she should have

00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:30.179
taken it up. Oh my goodness. No, but like what

00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:33.440
I'm saying is that I've made a lot of shitty

00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:36.619
decisions and I had to live with it. But for

00:39:36.619 --> 00:39:40.079
me, what I've learned and what I've been guided

00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:43.960
by, mentors and people that I kind of look up

00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.440
to is that there's always tiny lessons or something

00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:51.739
that you can take from it. And I'm speaking just

00:39:51.739 --> 00:39:55.400
from a point of, you know, where I'm at in my

00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:59.400
own growth journey. Yes, every day is not the

00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.900
same, but I think because of that intention that

00:40:02.900 --> 00:40:07.639
I had set up, you know, years back, making decisions

00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:14.579
now, and responding to those consequences based

00:40:14.579 --> 00:40:17.179
on their decisions, I can respond to it differently.

00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:21.840
Whereas before if I didn't go through my healing

00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:24.480
process, I will still be angry and frustrated

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.460
and burn things and say the most things and it's

00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:31.280
an ugly side of me that I was living in. So for

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.340
me it's just flipping that script and saying

00:40:34.340 --> 00:40:36.659
I don't want to operate from a point of frustration,

00:40:36.739 --> 00:40:41.340
you know. And not everybody can get to that point.

00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:46.539
And it's a journey every day. The intention is

00:40:46.539 --> 00:40:49.099
saying, okay, I know I'm going to have to make

00:40:49.099 --> 00:40:52.219
a decision somehow or somewhere or the other.

00:40:52.539 --> 00:40:54.500
Am I willing to live with that consequences,

00:40:54.900 --> 00:41:01.179
whether good or bad? I think there's a point

00:41:01.179 --> 00:41:09.039
where change is coming from yourself. And that

00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.440
change is good when you make the active choice.

00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:18.760
But I also think there is a space where change

00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:23.039
happens to you. And because of that change, you

00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:28.639
go into a bad space. And from that perspective,

00:41:29.539 --> 00:41:32.059
maybe it's not good. The question is, is there...

00:41:32.059 --> 00:41:35.860
Is there growth? Something bad happens to you,

00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.789
you're forced to change. Is that a kind of growth?

00:41:40.150 --> 00:41:44.449
Even if it's negative? Yes, I would agree. I

00:41:44.449 --> 00:41:51.170
would agree. That's growth because what I define

00:41:51.170 --> 00:41:53.809
as growth, you might not agree. What you define

00:41:53.809 --> 00:41:57.349
as growth, I might not agree. But it's not for

00:41:57.349 --> 00:42:03.070
me to, whatever your story is around that, it's

00:42:03.070 --> 00:42:06.269
not for me to judge it. And I think that is where

00:42:06.269 --> 00:42:10.909
the disconnect or the misunderstanding comes

00:42:10.909 --> 00:42:14.750
in. You know what I mean? Your story is your

00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:16.969
story. My story is my story. When you put it

00:42:16.969 --> 00:42:19.869
that way, it becomes a question of paying attention

00:42:19.869 --> 00:42:24.510
to good or bad. Kind of like justifying growth

00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:27.690
if it's good and not if it's bad. Because, I

00:42:27.690 --> 00:42:31.650
don't know, let's take a plant for example. Sometimes

00:42:31.650 --> 00:42:35.750
plants... Half that's really remedial, I guess

00:42:35.750 --> 00:42:38.210
but they have bad growth on but it's still growth

00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:40.730
and it doesn't benefit the plant But it's happening

00:42:40.730 --> 00:42:43.530
to the plant. So they are being stimulated by

00:42:43.530 --> 00:42:46.769
something in their environment. It's still growth

00:42:46.769 --> 00:42:50.989
Is it good not necessarily but it's still gross

00:42:50.989 --> 00:42:56.190
So I guess the same can happen to us How do we

00:42:56.190 --> 00:43:02.739
as plants? How do we how do we? You know Address

00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:06.920
it, fix ourselves, heal ourselves, whatever.

00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.960
Do we have the capacity to do that? Are we fixed

00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.840
in our thinking or do we have a... Sounds really

00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:17.000
schlocky. Do we have a growth mindset? Ruby,

00:43:17.019 --> 00:43:23.079
do we have a growth mindset? Yeah, we definitely

00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:26.659
have a growth mindset. Ruby does. Minds I think

00:43:26.659 --> 00:43:29.739
is limited. I think I lean more towards fix in

00:43:29.739 --> 00:43:34.980
my old age. Know it's not good or maybe paradoxically

00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:37.099
because I recognize that maybe I do have a growth

00:43:37.099 --> 00:43:43.460
mindset. I'm just really lazy You are not old

00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:49.780
okay, okay, you may be great But you are not

00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:51.699
I wasn't I wasn't fishing for someone to say

00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:59.800
you're not I have no problem You saying you're

00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.800
old makes me old You're younger than me. I think

00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.719
it's such a dichotomy of making the positive

00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:16.519
choice to grow or allowing yourself to sink into

00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:21.079
a place of despair. And I don't think that it's

00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:26.900
easy for people to always recognize when that

00:44:27.179 --> 00:44:30.760
point is, and sometimes you're required to go

00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:34.460
past that point for that point to break. And

00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:39.340
when it breaks, you gain, when you're in free

00:44:39.340 --> 00:44:45.719
fall and you can finally go, Oh damn, I need

00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:50.679
to do something right now. And when I started

00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:55.360
this podcast, I said, I'm what happens when you're

00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:58.510
going. fast on the highway for too long and thinking

00:44:58.510 --> 00:45:02.789
about something existential. My breaking point,

00:45:04.150 --> 00:45:06.409
I also asked you what was your breaking point.

00:45:06.489 --> 00:45:10.909
Mine was I used to work in Luigi's school and

00:45:10.909 --> 00:45:15.829
driving home, sitting in traffic, but I snuck

00:45:15.829 --> 00:45:19.070
out early and I was able to get home faster.

00:45:19.889 --> 00:45:22.869
And I perceived myself as being quite happy.

00:45:23.590 --> 00:45:30.590
But one day, I was going too fast and under a

00:45:30.590 --> 00:45:35.010
bridge, and I was wondering if I went fast enough

00:45:35.010 --> 00:45:38.489
to guarantee death, if I hit the side of the

00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:42.070
bridge. What? That sounds like a Nicholas Winding

00:45:42.070 --> 00:45:48.230
Ref and film. And that is, yeah. And that's when

00:45:48.230 --> 00:45:54.130
I went, I need to desperately find something.

00:45:54.539 --> 00:46:02.820
to help me immediately. And I had been cross

00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:10.980
-dressing for a while. And I'd also been browsing

00:46:10.980 --> 00:46:14.300
online, doing research, trying to figure out

00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:18.380
if I can transition in complete denial. I've

00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:21.260
said it before. I would go into a pharmacy and

00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:24.579
look for a misplaced estrogen. I would check

00:46:24.579 --> 00:46:27.940
creams for women to see if they had estradiol

00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:32.500
2 in. Just to try. Of course, like completely

00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:41.039
cisgender. Were you cisgender? No. But I would

00:46:41.039 --> 00:46:43.880
have told you that I was and I was unaware of

00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:48.780
the fact that I'm not. Okay. Yeah. Because that's

00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:52.159
what I think it to, like, you're telling yourself

00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.139
it's true, but obviously you were not, you're

00:46:54.139 --> 00:46:59.159
not denying. I was denying it, yeah, of course.

00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:05.139
Here I was, trust -dressing, but refusing to

00:47:05.139 --> 00:47:07.760
cross, one of the things that held me back for

00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.320
a very long time. And I've also spoken about

00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:12.880
this, but it's tangentially related, so it's

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:17.289
never been connected. I was in a lot of debt.

00:47:17.670 --> 00:47:20.929
I was not financially secure. And it took me

00:47:20.929 --> 00:47:23.070
a long time to dig myself out of that. And the

00:47:23.070 --> 00:47:25.869
moment I did, the moment I had a little bit of

00:47:25.869 --> 00:47:29.949
expendable cash, I could finally do what I've

00:47:29.949 --> 00:47:32.929
always wanted to do. And that is to cosplay properly,

00:47:33.269 --> 00:47:38.730
but not to cosplay, to cross dress, but to do

00:47:38.730 --> 00:47:42.429
justice in a way. And what I didn't realize was...

00:47:42.670 --> 00:47:48.949
I was living through dysphoria and to do this

00:47:48.949 --> 00:47:57.079
thing that bigots and transforms push. man in

00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:02.380
a wig or I've heard cock in a frock. There's

00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:09.500
a whole myriad of litany of slurs for being transgender.

00:48:10.579 --> 00:48:13.460
But one of the things that gave me dysphoria

00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:19.920
is to... want to do it justice. I would never,

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.440
ever, ever want to be a parody of a woman because

00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:37.380
I am one. My mind wouldn't connect the two. My

00:48:37.380 --> 00:48:41.440
breaking point was that, and then I met this

00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:48.260
girl online during COVID who I was really, I

00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:50.840
read her story on Reddit because I was desperately

00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.079
searching for people in China who could connect

00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:58.139
me to someone to get me estrogen. And she said,

00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:02.579
I know a person. Here you go. And two days later,

00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:06.320
I had a box of estrogen and the floodgates. That

00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:11.719
was now. What's the date? Four days ago. That

00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:16.280
was 10 months, 11 months, 10 months ago. I didn't

00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.360
mean to laugh for you, I was laughing because...

00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:21.340
You can laugh! No, it should be... It's really

00:49:21.340 --> 00:49:34.920
adorable. I give credit to cosplayers because

00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:41.920
they really go up. I won't say I think it's silly.

00:49:43.059 --> 00:49:47.460
I don't know. I understand the cosplayer. There's

00:49:47.460 --> 00:49:51.179
so much cosplaying in China. And it blows in

00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:54.460
my mind how invested a lot of people are in just

00:49:54.460 --> 00:49:59.119
getting like amazing, I'll say uniforms. I saw

00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:04.780
the other day, I was out and this girl, so for

00:50:04.780 --> 00:50:07.739
the listeners, it's common for people to make

00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:10.360
a day of getting dressed up and taking pictures

00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:13.440
of themselves as a character they're cosplaying

00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:24.519
as. And they're so devoted to the kinds of costumes

00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:28.920
they have. And it's impressive because when you

00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.300
look up close at these people, their face is

00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:37.199
just covered in so much makeup. They put weird

00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:42.530
lines and stuff that... Tran that it translates

00:50:42.530 --> 00:50:44.550
different onto the camera, but when you see them

00:50:44.550 --> 00:50:47.909
in person, it's just really silly like hard jagged

00:50:47.909 --> 00:50:50.889
lines It's a new kind. It's a it's a makeup technique

00:50:50.889 --> 00:50:54.909
Girls do it you leave you to know about it Anyway,

00:50:55.329 --> 00:50:58.349
it's great on the on the concept of cosplaying

00:50:58.349 --> 00:51:01.989
right now I have a question for you Nicole, but

00:51:01.989 --> 00:51:07.230
something I need to say One I'm cosplaying as

00:51:07.230 --> 00:51:11.579
Panty from the anime panty and stocking with

00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:20.800
a garter belt. It's a wild adult anime and these

00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:23.699
two angels, one is named Panty and one is named

00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:27.059
Stalker. Her panty turns into a gun and they're

00:51:27.059 --> 00:51:30.500
both angels and they have to earn heaven coins

00:51:30.500 --> 00:51:34.159
to get back to heaven. I am cosplaying as Panty

00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:36.980
and all of the parts for my costume that I am

00:51:36.980 --> 00:51:42.480
making is arriving or has arrived today. Congratulations.

00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.059
Wait a minute. Amazing. Let's go off. Let's go

00:51:46.059 --> 00:51:50.539
off. I'll send you photos. So in this universe,

00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.699
the, so assuming there's a heaven in this universe,

00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:58.500
the girl needs to get into heaven by getting

00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:00.659
heaven, what are they called? Heaven points,

00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.440
heaven points. Okay. And she has a pair of panties

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.639
that turns to a gun. That's really violent. Why

00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:14.699
would heaven? Accept them. Panty and stockings

00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:18.719
defeat demons, and when they defeat a boss demon,

00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:24.980
they get a heaven coin. Stockings turn into sores,

00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.480
and panty's panty turns into... Garter Belt is

00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:34.219
a non -binary, bearded person, and I don't know

00:52:34.219 --> 00:52:37.320
what his Garter Belt does. It is definitely a

00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:40.329
queer -coded show. Yes. Because you've got these

00:52:40.329 --> 00:52:44.250
two girls, panties that turn into a gun. A phallic

00:52:44.250 --> 00:52:48.489
symbol and stockings that turn into swords, phallic.

00:52:49.210 --> 00:52:53.289
That's really cool. Okay. Now I'm going to watch.

00:52:54.710 --> 00:52:59.190
On the idea of cosplaying, I have a question

00:52:59.190 --> 00:53:03.550
for you, Nicole. There is a game here in China

00:53:03.550 --> 00:53:10.849
called Tian Yu Shi Kong. It is worldwide. There

00:53:10.849 --> 00:53:17.469
are four characters, a doctor, mermaid, and five

00:53:17.469 --> 00:53:23.449
characters now, a brother, and this mob boss

00:53:23.449 --> 00:53:29.650
dude, and this alien who is stranded on earth.

00:53:30.510 --> 00:53:35.900
It is wildly popular among women all over the

00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:45.159
world. They grossed like 24 million US dollars

00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:47.719
in a month last year. Say the name again, Ruby.

00:53:47.780 --> 00:53:50.659
I want to look. There you are, Shun Kong. Love

00:53:50.659 --> 00:53:56.199
and Deep Space is the name of this game. There's

00:53:56.199 --> 00:54:01.440
a fad in China where women... Okay, there's also

00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:05.809
an all -men movement here right now. Women are

00:54:05.809 --> 00:54:09.769
cosplaying as these guys who are your boyfriend

00:54:09.769 --> 00:54:14.150
in the game. You can court all five of them.

00:54:14.710 --> 00:54:18.110
Yes. So women are cosplaying as these guys and

00:54:18.110 --> 00:54:22.090
renting out their time as escorts to date other

00:54:22.090 --> 00:54:25.650
women. So they're pretending to be the men. They

00:54:25.650 --> 00:54:29.369
are, yes, they are embodying that character for

00:54:29.369 --> 00:54:33.510
the day. And women want to rent them to engage

00:54:33.510 --> 00:54:37.489
in the fantasy. that of this man. Exactly. I

00:54:37.489 --> 00:54:39.150
can understand that. And I can understand why

00:54:39.150 --> 00:54:41.269
women themselves would do it because I feel like

00:54:41.269 --> 00:54:43.210
they would have a better understanding of performing

00:54:43.210 --> 00:54:47.750
as this man for the other women. Where as I think

00:54:47.750 --> 00:54:50.769
men, I'm sure maybe men do it too. I want the

00:54:50.769 --> 00:54:53.269
calls out. No, men don't do it. Oh, they don't.

00:54:53.269 --> 00:54:57.030
They don't make any money. They fail immediately.

00:54:57.190 --> 00:55:00.530
Oh really? But though girls succeed. That's interesting.

00:55:00.710 --> 00:55:05.139
Super popular. Can we rent one for a day? A lot

00:55:05.139 --> 00:55:09.940
of them only go on dates with girls. That is

00:55:09.940 --> 00:55:12.420
wild. Why haven't I ever heard of this? Well,

00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:14.780
I'm hearing about it now, but still. What's the

00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:17.440
outcome of that? What do they learn out of? Before

00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:21.519
I answer your question, what do they want to

00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:24.079
get out of that experience? I could imagine.

00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:27.900
Companionship? Companionship, sure, but it's

00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:35.420
definitely the fantasy. Yeah. of the game. And

00:55:35.420 --> 00:55:38.239
I should ask my partner. It's a kind of pleasure

00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:45.179
there. Yeah, cause she plays. But what are your

00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:47.579
thoughts? My thoughts, I've got loads of questions.

00:55:47.699 --> 00:55:50.619
It's the first time I'm hearing about this. Yeah,

00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:52.800
it caught her off guard. It's so bizarre. Yeah,

00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:57.980
it's new thing. This is, yeah. So I think if

00:55:57.980 --> 00:56:03.380
I put myself in that, game or fantasy and hiding.

00:56:04.460 --> 00:56:07.780
So it's basically a female pretending to be a

00:56:07.780 --> 00:56:11.820
man. Cosplaying as a man. How does it work? Okay.

00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:15.559
Are these women clear? Yeah, I think. Are they

00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:17.300
what? That would be my question. The women in

00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:20.000
cosplay, are they clear or are they? That was

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:27.360
like my primary question. Is it lesbian or? Is

00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:32.219
it queer? Is it LGBT quoted? Or is it just business?

00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:37.260
If it's just a kind of play, I think it depends.

00:56:38.179 --> 00:56:41.639
There comes like a point, they cross a line where

00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.940
it can be defined as queer or not. Now if there's

00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:48.179
just these, let's say cis women cosplaying and

00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:51.539
then, you know, doing like a dialogue or acting

00:56:51.539 --> 00:56:54.679
out a social dynamic with these girls and it

00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:58.070
doesn't go further than that, then you could

00:56:58.070 --> 00:57:03.849
argue it's cis, I guess, it's straight. But if

00:57:03.849 --> 00:57:06.949
there comes a point where they're doing things

00:57:06.949 --> 00:57:10.110
that are culturally considered, like, I don't

00:57:10.110 --> 00:57:11.309
want to say sexual, but I don't have a better

00:57:11.309 --> 00:57:13.429
word for it. So like, even in China, let's say,

00:57:13.849 --> 00:57:15.730
like, something that would be considered like

00:57:15.730 --> 00:57:18.150
a kind of courting, I guess, historically would

00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:21.929
be like even holding hands would mean like, a

00:57:21.929 --> 00:57:23.670
boyfriend and girlfriend, that's serious. Ooh,

00:57:23.670 --> 00:57:26.469
they're holding hands in public. So like that

00:57:26.469 --> 00:57:30.050
point, if that happened, there'd be that kind

00:57:30.050 --> 00:57:32.869
of like tipping point. So then you could argue,

00:57:33.130 --> 00:57:37.789
yes, it is queer. Even if it's business, oh,

00:57:37.789 --> 00:57:40.809
I don't know, that's so tough. Yeah, Nicole,

00:57:40.829 --> 00:57:45.250
what do you think? Yeah, sure. Look, I'm looking

00:57:45.250 --> 00:57:54.000
at this in a way we, again, I guess... If I'm

00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:58.159
thinking about this particular game and the fantasy

00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.800
intentions behind it, as this thing about Luigi

00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:05.440
was saying, is it for companionship or is it

00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:09.900
just, you know, there's other reasons of why.

00:58:10.179 --> 00:58:15.039
Yeah, it's so mind blowing. Like whatever it

00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:20.420
is, it's cool. Absolutely. Look, I'm not against

00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:22.639
it. It's just understanding, you know, what am

00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.239
I going to get out? What is this experience I'm

00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:28.880
getting? Because what's interesting is that you're

00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:32.599
saying, Ray, your partner is participating. And

00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:35.420
how does that impact you, you know, being part

00:58:35.420 --> 00:58:38.420
of that? Because you aren't indirectly impacted.

00:58:40.019 --> 00:58:43.519
So I'm just like, if I know that I'm going to

00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:46.320
partake in this experience, it doesn't impact

00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:49.949
me alone, but those around me, you know? I know,

00:58:50.090 --> 00:58:51.969
so what am I going to get out of this experience?

00:58:53.269 --> 00:58:56.250
Yeah, it's still mind blowing. It's mind blowing.

00:58:57.269 --> 00:59:01.210
A lot of interesting questions pop up. What did

00:59:01.210 --> 00:59:05.369
you ask, Luigi? What I wanted to say was, I think

00:59:05.369 --> 00:59:10.409
that we're trying to decide when it becomes a

00:59:10.409 --> 00:59:13.250
queer act, but really we would have to ask the

00:59:13.250 --> 00:59:17.880
person or persons engaging in it. the woman who's

00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:21.400
paying, she would have to say whether she is

00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:24.719
queer or not, and the woman working would have

00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:26.880
to say if they are queer or not. It's as simple

00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:32.420
as that. I think whatever is happening as well,

00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:40.880
the women ordering the service is participating

00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:49.349
in a cisgendered heteronormative act of dating

00:59:49.349 --> 00:59:53.170
a male character from a story. On the surface?

00:59:54.409 --> 01:00:00.210
From the perspective of the person providing

01:00:00.210 --> 01:00:04.869
the service. And it's not obviously, it's when

01:00:04.869 --> 01:00:07.550
I say escort, it's like a, it's a date. It's

01:00:07.550 --> 01:00:10.829
you just go out with them. It's a photo op and

01:00:10.829 --> 01:00:15.659
stuff like that. They might be rare. they might

01:00:15.659 --> 01:00:19.679
be queer, who knows? That's gonna be a self -identification

01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:24.559
thing. Yeah, so what would happen in a case where,

01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:27.320
you know, emotions start developing, is that

01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:31.400
against the rules? Like, yeah, just part of the

01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:33.219
experience I'm discovering, oh, but I'm attracted

01:00:33.219 --> 01:00:37.880
to this and this of the person. That's against

01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:40.940
the rules. I don't think there are rules. These

01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:43.380
are sole proprietors doing this. They're not

01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:46.820
working for organizations. I mean, I think it's

01:00:46.820 --> 01:00:51.039
no different than the kind of man who falls in

01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:53.980
love with his sex worker, right? I mean, it's

01:00:53.980 --> 01:00:57.800
a good possibility the people paying end up falling

01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:02.340
in love with that person. Would you call it a

01:01:02.340 --> 01:01:07.079
parasocial relationship? Maybe. Depends how attached

01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:15.159
that uh server let's say is to the the client

01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.820
but it reminds me of like host bars in japan

01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:22.519
where women pay to go to host bars and they they

01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:24.860
develop a relationship with the workers and the

01:01:24.860 --> 01:01:26.460
workers know they develop a relationship with

01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:29.840
them and it's an avenue to make you know to exploit

01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:33.599
them even more and make so much money it's definitely

01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:38.300
going into his face of breaking the paris social

01:01:38.510 --> 01:01:43.929
barrier because there's opportunity for content.

01:01:44.730 --> 01:01:50.170
But I think we've strayed a bit. Do we ever really,

01:01:50.170 --> 01:01:53.630
do we ever really stray in this podcast? Isn't

01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:57.670
that the whole point? Otherwise it wouldn't be

01:01:57.670 --> 01:02:08.760
a pet microscope. That's right. You have definitely

01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:15.219
shown up for me and been present for me. And

01:02:15.219 --> 01:02:18.760
so did Nicole. Thank you so much for, actually,

01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:23.500
I want to tell you that you kicked off this mini

01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:29.219
-series where we are going to be diving into

01:02:29.219 --> 01:02:34.480
LGBTQ activism in South Africa. Thank you. Thank

01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:36.440
you. I'm humbled. I'm humbled by that. Thank

01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:41.610
you. Yeah, sure. But can I just add on, just

01:02:41.610 --> 01:02:43.630
before we close off that conversation? No, we're

01:02:43.630 --> 01:02:45.889
not done yet. We're not. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:02:45.889 --> 01:02:50.170
I'm still thinking because the way I am also

01:02:50.170 --> 01:02:53.469
looking at it is the way how we express ourselves

01:02:53.469 --> 01:03:00.190
in our gender. Part of the trainings and sessions

01:03:00.190 --> 01:03:02.929
that I run with organizations or individuals,

01:03:03.010 --> 01:03:06.039
we talk about gender expression. and attraction

01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:12.579
and, you know, our sex characteristics. And maybe

01:03:12.579 --> 01:03:18.940
I would think this would be, you know, this game

01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:22.199
would basically explore that thing of gender

01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:25.119
expression. The stuff that I want to explore,

01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:28.539
I can't explore with my partner. The stuff that

01:03:28.539 --> 01:03:32.119
I want to explore around my values or identity

01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:37.539
that My partners are open to it yet, but he has

01:03:37.539 --> 01:03:39.920
a safe way of doing it. Let me explore it knowing

01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.760
that the stranger that I mean to acting with

01:03:42.760 --> 01:03:48.199
that they also on that kind of same journey or

01:03:48.199 --> 01:03:52.280
same kind of thinking it's all about like and

01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:56.460
like revealing a Fantasy that you've always wanted

01:03:56.460 --> 01:04:00.139
to do, you know, but looking at a way of maybe

01:04:00.139 --> 01:04:04.280
my partner's not ready to do it yet But because

01:04:04.280 --> 01:04:06.960
I'm open to my partner about it, they are allowing

01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:09.780
me to experience this for myself and for my own

01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:13.739
growth That was a study I was just looking at

01:04:13.739 --> 01:04:16.559
it in that way because yeah, it makes me it's

01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:20.219
it's a cool idea And yeah, I think I want to

01:04:20.219 --> 01:04:25.309
do it test it with the residents which again

01:04:25.309 --> 01:04:27.590
is going to challenge that thing of what it means

01:04:27.590 --> 01:04:29.750
to be human. What it means to be fully human

01:04:29.750 --> 01:04:34.869
without being judged and without allowing society

01:04:34.869 --> 01:04:38.989
and their nonsense and their rumors and all of

01:04:38.989 --> 01:04:43.190
these negative things. How can I challenge that

01:04:43.190 --> 01:04:46.510
voices but still show up fully for myself? So

01:04:46.510 --> 01:04:49.889
I'm also looking at it in that way. Yeah, still

01:04:49.889 --> 01:04:54.300
very curious. And I think it's not for everybody,

01:04:54.500 --> 01:04:57.239
which you also need to be, you know, aware of

01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.139
and conscious that everybody would be comfortable.

01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:06.440
Yeah, I guess to be open to that kind of experiential

01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:10.719
learning, you can want to put it that way. Yeah.

01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:15.139
I said my partner plays, this is an online game.

01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:19.619
It's basically a card game that tells a story.

01:05:20.260 --> 01:05:27.289
So to narrative. There's long form of entertainment

01:05:27.289 --> 01:05:31.750
and it's become so popular that it's given rise

01:05:31.750 --> 01:05:36.829
to this new thing where you can hire someone

01:05:36.829 --> 01:05:39.690
to go on a date with you as that person. It's

01:05:39.690 --> 01:05:42.349
not something that I would do because I don't

01:05:42.349 --> 01:05:51.289
think I need to explore. I'm past that. that

01:05:51.289 --> 01:05:54.789
need for exploration. I'm exploring higher picks,

01:05:55.349 --> 01:06:00.349
so. Do you think it's exploration though? Like

01:06:00.349 --> 01:06:05.889
the girls who rent the boys, is it exploration

01:06:05.889 --> 01:06:09.730
for them? Or do they know what they want? To

01:06:09.730 --> 01:06:11.969
me, it doesn't sound like exploration. It doesn't

01:06:11.969 --> 01:06:14.670
sound like the people cosplaying as the man to

01:06:14.670 --> 01:06:19.900
rent are exploring unless... you know, they are

01:06:19.900 --> 01:06:24.920
questioning their sexuality and this is a weirdly

01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:26.820
safe avenue. Dude, I don't think it is because

01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:29.260
it's a business for them, right? They have to

01:06:29.260 --> 01:06:33.420
pay. From the perspective of the person hiring,

01:06:33.739 --> 01:06:39.920
it could be exploration. It could be having given

01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:44.519
up on men because they've had so many bad experiences.

01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:48.679
Sure, yeah. You and I both have our own opinions

01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:56.099
on the dating culture here. So from that perspective,

01:06:56.280 --> 01:07:00.059
it can be exploring then with the marriage pressure

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:04.539
to be able to date someone and have a romantic

01:07:04.539 --> 01:07:07.460
experience outside of the pressure of dating.

01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:11.380
I think that's important as well. A myriad of

01:07:11.380 --> 01:07:15.840
possibilities. How do we show up and be present

01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:19.550
for them? I think I mean obviously you just you

01:07:19.550 --> 01:07:25.449
know pay attention on That's it Make sure you're

01:07:25.449 --> 01:07:29.309
I'm trying to segue into your ah But I wanted

01:07:29.309 --> 01:07:32.329
to listen. I know I always have I always have

01:07:32.329 --> 01:07:35.389
my Things I I want to ask but then the guests

01:07:35.389 --> 01:07:37.809
always you know say interesting things that I

01:07:37.809 --> 01:07:42.949
want to know but okay Nicole You mentioned out

01:07:42.949 --> 01:07:45.480
this Again, this is kind of another tangent,

01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:47.420
but I'm really interested now. You said he went

01:07:47.420 --> 01:07:49.619
on a vision quest. I'm wondering I'm so cute

01:07:49.619 --> 01:07:54.280
like How do I do it? I want to do that How do

01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:56.619
you do a vision quest? I know so many people

01:07:56.619 --> 01:08:00.159
who do things like that You know, they all have

01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:03.380
their experiences some of them involving, you

01:08:03.380 --> 01:08:08.780
know, uh Adelix I've known people who've gone

01:08:08.780 --> 01:08:10.980
to like Thailand and like licked frogs or took

01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:12.920
some like black goo that was squeezed out of

01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:16.289
a frog It's a weird meditation. I think it's

01:08:16.289 --> 01:08:20.109
cool. I'd like to do that someday. But I'm just

01:08:20.109 --> 01:08:24.569
curious, how did you go about with your vision

01:08:24.569 --> 01:08:26.590
quest? Is it something you're practiced in? Was

01:08:26.590 --> 01:08:30.689
it a one -time thing? How did you do it? Yeah,

01:08:30.789 --> 01:08:34.970
sure. So, the first time I ever encountered a

01:08:34.970 --> 01:08:38.350
vision quest was during my years of studying.

01:08:41.050 --> 01:08:44.189
When I'm thinking about it now, we all do vision

01:08:44.189 --> 01:08:47.130
quests in our own way, but I think it's just

01:08:47.130 --> 01:08:50.569
the terms that we use. Vision quest, it can be

01:08:50.569 --> 01:08:53.729
called the rites of passage. It can be called

01:08:53.729 --> 01:08:57.289
change of life. It can be called, you know, cycle

01:08:57.289 --> 01:09:01.510
of life. And, and we all have some sort of way

01:09:01.510 --> 01:09:03.369
of how we do a vision quest and rites of passage.

01:09:03.550 --> 01:09:06.329
So this is how I explained it. And please stop

01:09:06.329 --> 01:09:13.289
me if I'm, if I'm. Too much Yeah, waffling or

01:09:13.289 --> 01:09:16.489
this too much information but for the time I

01:09:16.489 --> 01:09:18.729
discovered vision quest was in my fourth year

01:09:18.729 --> 01:09:24.609
of university and The way I understood it there's

01:09:24.609 --> 01:09:30.930
no religious attachments. There's no Traditional

01:09:30.930 --> 01:09:35.289
attachments and because we were a group of diverse

01:09:35.289 --> 01:09:40.920
young people it was just basically um, introduced

01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:45.039
in a way where you are now at a point in your

01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:48.479
life where you are about to step into the next

01:09:48.479 --> 01:09:51.100
phase of your, of your, of your journey. And

01:09:51.100 --> 01:09:53.159
in order for you to get there, you have to mock

01:09:53.159 --> 01:09:55.520
and acknowledge how far you've come, whether

01:09:55.520 --> 01:09:58.260
it be good, bad, the ugly, you have to acknowledge

01:09:58.260 --> 01:10:01.399
this is where I've come. And then from that,

01:10:01.500 --> 01:10:05.260
you have to now let go, let go of what has hold

01:10:05.260 --> 01:10:09.310
you back. Let go of the stuff that you're still

01:10:09.310 --> 01:10:13.289
struggling with, but can still work on, but just

01:10:13.289 --> 01:10:17.529
fully surrender to the universe. In simple terms,

01:10:17.829 --> 01:10:21.590
fully surrender to, okay, I'm here as Nicole,

01:10:21.789 --> 01:10:24.909
I'm here as a daughter, I'm here as a partner,

01:10:24.949 --> 01:10:31.829
I'm here as just a person who's existing. And

01:10:31.829 --> 01:10:36.930
it's all done in the mountains, which is, we

01:10:36.930 --> 01:10:41.609
went on a It's a two hour drive out of the city

01:10:41.609 --> 01:10:45.289
and it's beautiful mountains. And those mountains

01:10:45.289 --> 01:10:47.510
I used to work with. That was the previous organization

01:10:47.510 --> 01:10:51.750
I was working at. And space is set up in a way

01:10:51.750 --> 01:10:55.250
where it's going to be just about you and just

01:10:55.250 --> 01:11:01.409
about breaking and rebuilding and understanding

01:11:01.409 --> 01:11:05.880
what has really hurt me. What has really... um

01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:09.159
cause the trauma and that could go to like for

01:11:09.159 --> 01:11:15.619
me my story was family shit family trauma and

01:11:15.619 --> 01:11:21.479
I couldn't I was operating in a space where I

01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:26.399
couldn't see eye to eye with either my mom or

01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:28.979
you know family members because something is

01:11:28.979 --> 01:11:30.840
starting to shift for me my thinking is starting

01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:32.960
to shift my heart the way I respond to people

01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:35.560
is starting to shift But there's people in my

01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:39.880
family still remaining the same. Um, but in order

01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:41.659
for them to be in my life, there's something

01:11:41.659 --> 01:11:44.800
that I have to change in terms of the way I react

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:48.699
to it, because they will never change. And that's

01:11:48.699 --> 01:11:51.100
a fact, but the way I shop in the world, this

01:11:51.100 --> 01:11:54.159
is how I'm going to shop for my own sanity, for

01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:57.000
my own wellbeing, for my own mental health in

01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:00.460
the end. Um, so this process, it's, it's the

01:12:00.460 --> 01:12:03.949
first three days that prepping you. around cleansing

01:12:03.949 --> 01:12:06.210
of the mind, cleansing of your soul, cleansing

01:12:06.210 --> 01:12:09.189
you physically, so preparing you for four days

01:12:09.189 --> 01:12:12.090
and four nights of fasting. And if I take that

01:12:12.090 --> 01:12:14.750
back of that fasting alone in Christianity for

01:12:14.750 --> 01:12:17.890
myself, for my spiritual growth, I also practice

01:12:17.890 --> 01:12:21.390
fasting. So it's cleansing my body, getting rid

01:12:21.390 --> 01:12:24.529
of the clutter, getting rid of... Why am I getting

01:12:24.529 --> 01:12:26.930
sick, you know, because all everything of that

01:12:26.930 --> 01:12:29.109
physical wellness is linked to your mentality

01:12:29.109 --> 01:12:31.470
It's linked to your emotions. So it's cleansing

01:12:31.470 --> 01:12:35.609
and Once you step into those four days and four

01:12:35.609 --> 01:12:39.609
nights step into there With an intention of what

01:12:39.609 --> 01:12:42.989
am I going to work on? So in my story I was working

01:12:42.989 --> 01:12:49.090
on The pain and the trauma of the previous board

01:12:49.090 --> 01:12:54.699
that just left me and the LGBT community that

01:12:54.699 --> 01:12:57.020
I thought that was here to support me to do this

01:12:57.020 --> 01:13:00.300
work. That was the trauma I was sitting with.

01:13:02.180 --> 01:13:05.819
And another part to that story was because I

01:13:05.819 --> 01:13:09.779
was not productive in my work, it was impacting

01:13:09.779 --> 01:13:13.319
me personally. So my health became like it was

01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:17.739
getting to a point where I I had to take medication

01:13:17.739 --> 01:13:20.720
and I'm not for one for taking medication. So

01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:24.840
high blood pressure tablets, I was closely going

01:13:24.840 --> 01:13:28.699
on antidepressants. So all of those factors had

01:13:28.699 --> 01:13:31.720
an impact on me and my body and I just needed

01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:35.500
a break. So part of the vision quest is just

01:13:35.500 --> 01:13:39.060
dealing with, oh my goodness, this person hurt

01:13:39.060 --> 01:13:42.199
me. This person didn't do what they said they

01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:44.920
would. what they said they were promised to do.

01:13:45.260 --> 01:13:49.539
And there was a whole lot of lists, but it really

01:13:49.539 --> 01:13:54.119
had, I really had to be open. If you're not open

01:13:54.119 --> 01:13:56.319
to that experience, and that's the thing of that

01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:58.340
intention is, because they ask you the question

01:13:58.340 --> 01:14:00.859
before you go onto this process, why do you want

01:14:00.859 --> 01:14:04.760
to do this? Because if you don't have that, if

01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:06.520
you don't have the reason why you want to go,

01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:09.279
the process in between or the interventions in

01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:11.340
between, it's going to be a bit of a struggle

01:14:11.340 --> 01:14:13.800
because you won't be able to connect mind, body,

01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:21.439
soul to the process or to the experience. And

01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:23.720
in my four days and four nights of fast, I mean,

01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:28.380
the experience for me, I had wild dreams of my

01:14:28.380 --> 01:14:31.760
ancestors. I had dreams of what my future might

01:14:31.760 --> 01:14:34.699
look like. I had dreams of the people that hurt

01:14:34.699 --> 01:14:38.880
me. um but in that four nights and four days

01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:40.960
of fasting you're also on your own so it's a

01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:44.279
solo i don't see anybody i'm just there with

01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:48.359
the boons and just the wild but it's also just

01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:51.300
how do how do i remind myself that i'm in their

01:14:51.300 --> 01:14:55.460
territory they're not in my territory so it's

01:14:55.460 --> 01:14:58.220
nature and i'm like okay in order for me to survive

01:14:58.220 --> 01:15:00.680
this night I have to make peace that I'm going

01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:03.300
to see baboons and I'm going to see other wild

01:15:03.300 --> 01:15:05.899
animals because that's also a form of safety

01:15:05.899 --> 01:15:08.239
and connecting with nature and saying I'm here,

01:15:08.539 --> 01:15:10.779
I'm surrendering and whatever needs to happen

01:15:10.779 --> 01:15:14.060
needs to happen. But also just being very focused

01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:18.220
on the goal at the end. Coming out of that experience,

01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:21.479
now you come back to your community. So who is

01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:24.100
this new person that has gone through this experience

01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:29.100
and what has happened in those four days and

01:15:29.100 --> 01:15:31.760
four nights, you share a bit of that story because

01:15:31.760 --> 01:15:34.000
it's important to share it with your community

01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:37.600
that's going to hold you accountable in the end,

01:15:37.880 --> 01:15:41.659
knowing that they've journeyed with you through

01:15:41.659 --> 01:15:47.199
this kind of therapeutic, you can call it, healing

01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:49.939
process. They are the people that's going to

01:15:49.939 --> 01:15:51.399
catch you when you fall. They are the people

01:15:51.399 --> 01:15:53.180
that's going to catch you when you need support.

01:15:53.779 --> 01:15:56.600
But also remind you of This is your intention.

01:15:56.699 --> 01:16:00.039
This is what you work towards. And it's a painful

01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:03.399
experience. For me, it was painful, like emotionally

01:16:03.399 --> 01:16:09.439
painful. But I needed to shift my thinking. I

01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:13.399
could not operate from a point of hate and exclusion

01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:17.539
because that is not what I'm here to serve. This

01:16:17.539 --> 01:16:21.979
is not why I'm here to serve. And every time

01:16:21.979 --> 01:16:24.960
when I find myself at a point where I'm not aligned

01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:27.920
with my purpose and my intention, I go back to

01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:30.380
staleness. I go back to nature and just like,

01:16:30.439 --> 01:16:34.479
okay, I did what I thought I should do, but what

01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:37.560
is going on now? So it's important for me and

01:16:37.560 --> 01:16:42.260
to keep me sane. It's just going back to that

01:16:42.260 --> 01:16:46.420
place of staleness. I don't go to church. I am

01:16:46.420 --> 01:16:51.140
a Christian, but I don't see the bolding as,

01:16:51.380 --> 01:16:52.880
you know, my connection and my relationship to

01:16:52.880 --> 01:16:57.520
God, but I have my ways of being still and what

01:16:57.520 --> 01:16:59.359
works for you, works for you, what works for

01:16:59.359 --> 01:17:00.899
me, works for me. And that's the thing about

01:17:00.899 --> 01:17:03.500
what we teach again at the shelter is that spiritual

01:17:03.500 --> 01:17:07.319
element of how do we connect self to nature and

01:17:07.319 --> 01:17:11.520
practice it in a safe way. So yeah, that's in

01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:13.159
a nutshell, what a vision quest or what rites

01:17:13.159 --> 01:17:17.979
of passage is. And then just to add on what,

01:17:18.180 --> 01:17:23.680
just the everyday. Um, examples, because I know

01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:27.420
there's this thing of like, uh, it comes back

01:17:27.420 --> 01:17:29.699
to that native American teachings of sending,

01:17:29.699 --> 01:17:33.140
you know, the young man into the wild and being

01:17:33.140 --> 01:17:35.840
guided by the chief. But if I bring it back home,

01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:38.979
my rites of passage growing up would be baptism

01:17:38.979 --> 01:17:42.260
would be, you know, confirmation. Another rites

01:17:42.260 --> 01:17:44.300
of passage would be marriage and other rites

01:17:44.300 --> 01:17:48.100
of passage would be, um, you know, death. So

01:17:48.100 --> 01:17:50.739
everything has got. some purpose and there's

01:17:50.739 --> 01:17:53.899
a process that people have to go through. But

01:17:53.899 --> 01:17:57.619
I think it's just the terminologies that we tend

01:17:57.619 --> 01:18:01.659
to use, but we all do it some way, somehow. Going

01:18:01.659 --> 01:18:05.300
back to that place of stillness and just re -evaluating,

01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:08.939
oh snap, this is where I'm at. This is where

01:18:08.939 --> 01:18:11.779
I want to go, but I'm just stuck right now. What

01:18:11.779 --> 01:18:13.840
is that stuckness? What does it mean to you?

01:18:17.590 --> 01:18:19.350
I hope I'm making sense. No, you're making a

01:18:19.350 --> 01:18:24.149
lot of sense. It's great. I think, you know,

01:18:24.149 --> 01:18:25.569
when people think of things like Vision Quest,

01:18:25.609 --> 01:18:28.109
it seems so complicated and impossible and that

01:18:28.109 --> 01:18:30.890
kind of discourages people. Or maybe this is

01:18:30.890 --> 01:18:32.850
a total self -report, you know, because I always

01:18:32.850 --> 01:18:34.949
think, oh, it's too hard. I could never do that.

01:18:35.390 --> 01:18:37.949
I mean, it is hard. Like, you said you did it,

01:18:37.949 --> 01:18:40.289
you were completely alone for four days and nights.

01:18:40.890 --> 01:18:44.689
Like, that's super brave. I don't know if I could

01:18:44.689 --> 01:18:49.020
do that. I want to be able to do that. I mean,

01:18:49.039 --> 01:18:51.920
I would love to have some introspection as put

01:18:51.920 --> 01:18:57.420
together as I seem to be. And that's the thing,

01:18:57.579 --> 01:19:02.140
Luigi. Like that's the thing though. I think

01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:07.500
we tend to overcomplicate things. I think about

01:19:07.500 --> 01:19:10.300
like that stillness. If you take an hour of your

01:19:10.300 --> 01:19:13.619
day, just decide, go take a walk. that it would

01:19:13.619 --> 01:19:15.720
be your rites of passage. That would be your

01:19:15.720 --> 01:19:17.899
solo time. So the more you build and the more

01:19:17.899 --> 01:19:20.659
you practice, eventually that one hour will become

01:19:20.659 --> 01:19:25.319
one day and then four days. So it's also what

01:19:25.319 --> 01:19:26.859
I was saying in the beginning of the rites of

01:19:26.859 --> 01:19:29.300
passage, they prepare you for that experience.

01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:33.430
So cutting down on food. you know spending time

01:19:33.430 --> 01:19:35.909
in nature so starting your process already before

01:19:35.909 --> 01:19:39.949
you go into the mountains um we totally like

01:19:39.949 --> 01:19:41.949
you are totally stripped away from technology

01:19:41.949 --> 01:19:45.310
and time and just you and your water and journals

01:19:45.310 --> 01:19:50.149
understand so it's like baby steps like having

01:19:50.149 --> 01:19:53.670
absolutely nothing to occupy your mind like i'm

01:19:53.670 --> 01:19:57.189
at home after work and i think i'm being still

01:19:57.189 --> 01:20:00.899
but You're right. Like I could be connected to

01:20:00.899 --> 01:20:03.739
social media I can turn on the TV and I can't

01:20:03.739 --> 01:20:06.920
even imagine not eating and just being in the

01:20:06.920 --> 01:20:11.600
wilderness with You know a pen and a pad of paper.

01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:15.319
I always tell myself I'm in a journal I never

01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.840
do but like I can't like oh my god. That's just

01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:24.500
blows my mind how how So much more difficult

01:20:24.500 --> 01:20:27.119
it would be or at least how much more kind of

01:20:27.119 --> 01:20:30.739
like Surreal eye -opening would be like right

01:20:30.739 --> 01:20:33.319
now you're telling me this story and I'm hearing

01:20:33.319 --> 01:20:35.819
you but I'm thinking but and but I think if I

01:20:35.819 --> 01:20:39.439
did it it would be even more just overwhelming

01:20:39.439 --> 01:20:44.159
To be fasting and in nature and have nothing

01:20:44.159 --> 01:20:46.619
to occupy you like what kind of thoughts would

01:20:46.619 --> 01:20:49.439
enter your mind, especially if You know you begin

01:20:49.439 --> 01:20:51.479
a fast and you get hungry because like I can

01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:56.600
I can admit if I don't eat It will affect my

01:20:56.600 --> 01:20:59.260
thinking And I'm not saying like, I'm hangry.

01:20:59.539 --> 01:21:02.840
No, it's just like the, you know, I do get negative

01:21:02.840 --> 01:21:05.600
and I do recognize that I probably am this way

01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:08.060
because I haven't eaten, but I'm not angry because

01:21:08.060 --> 01:21:10.380
I'm not eating. But it's just like, that's my

01:21:10.380 --> 01:21:12.739
chemical disposition. So like what would happen

01:21:12.739 --> 01:21:17.619
to me if I were to do that? Think that if you

01:21:17.619 --> 01:21:22.420
are actually fasting and there's nobody around

01:21:22.420 --> 01:21:25.600
you and you just have your journal and just your

01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:29.979
water. It doesn't matter how angry you get, I

01:21:29.979 --> 01:21:34.779
think. Isn't that kind of the point? In a way?

01:21:35.279 --> 01:21:39.500
Yeah, you're right. I guess, yeah, you would

01:21:39.500 --> 01:21:41.380
come out on the other end after. I'm just so

01:21:41.380 --> 01:21:44.220
curious what they do. I've tried fasting. The

01:21:44.220 --> 01:21:50.479
longest I fasted was for three days. But I was

01:21:50.479 --> 01:21:53.680
still surrounded by things that distracted me.

01:21:54.220 --> 01:21:58.859
You know, like TV, for example. the city Whatever

01:21:58.859 --> 01:22:01.659
and I was in Suzhou while I was staying with

01:22:01.659 --> 01:22:05.640
friends. So yeah Anyway, isn't it doesn't it

01:22:05.640 --> 01:22:10.140
get easier? after like the first day I'm told

01:22:10.140 --> 01:22:12.539
after the the third day is when things really

01:22:12.539 --> 01:22:16.000
start Like to shift and that's what I was aiming

01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:18.460
for when I was going for three days But I personally

01:22:18.460 --> 01:22:21.880
didn't see any or I didn't experience anything

01:22:21.880 --> 01:22:25.399
that I thought wow This is great. So I mean I

01:22:25.399 --> 01:22:29.119
may have done it wrong, but you know It's more

01:22:29.119 --> 01:22:33.420
than I've ever done Maybe I'll try again. I mean

01:22:33.420 --> 01:22:36.460
stuff really fascinates me and you and this the

01:22:36.460 --> 01:22:39.800
idea to a kind of motif I keep hearing is like

01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:43.840
You have to be open to you know the experience

01:22:43.840 --> 01:22:46.460
and this happens in so many things vision quest

01:22:46.460 --> 01:22:50.060
when people Take psychedelics, you know, you're

01:22:50.060 --> 01:22:52.420
gonna have a bad trip if you're not open to the

01:22:52.420 --> 01:22:55.350
experience. So You can't just rely on the thing.

01:22:55.529 --> 01:22:58.149
So let's, for example, say, taking mushrooms.

01:22:58.329 --> 01:23:01.930
You can't just rely on taking the mushrooms to

01:23:01.930 --> 01:23:04.949
give you a great experience that you have to

01:23:04.949 --> 01:23:08.609
first prepare. Sure, yeah. Anyway, yeah, fasting

01:23:08.609 --> 01:23:11.350
stuff. I love it. This is definitely something

01:23:11.350 --> 01:23:13.590
I would like to introduce in my life to be more,

01:23:13.590 --> 01:23:16.449
you know, have more experience. Be a better person.

01:23:16.609 --> 01:23:19.640
Yes, of course. Anyway. In the neck. In the next

01:23:19.640 --> 01:23:22.500
podcast, your introduction, I want you to say

01:23:22.500 --> 01:23:32.020
aspiring faster. Aspiring to fast. Aspiring vision

01:23:32.020 --> 01:23:37.000
quester. Yeah, exactly. That was fantastic. Should

01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:40.300
we wrap it up? Should we answer a couple more

01:23:40.300 --> 01:23:45.680
questions? I have so many questions, but I also

01:23:45.680 --> 01:23:51.829
have Nicole on WhatsApp now. Be prepared. Go

01:23:51.829 --> 01:23:54.970
for it. Go for it. What was your perspective?

01:23:55.750 --> 01:24:01.010
My perspective? My perspective. I still have

01:24:01.010 --> 01:24:04.130
my perspective. Yeah, it was about being present.

01:24:04.630 --> 01:24:07.350
It was about not being present. In the right

01:24:07.350 --> 01:24:10.069
way. We can talk about it. Yeah. If you two are

01:24:10.069 --> 01:24:13.750
still willing. I have time. Okay. Well, we won't

01:24:13.750 --> 01:24:17.250
talk so long about it, but... Okay, here's the

01:24:17.250 --> 01:24:19.390
thing about being present that I have a kind

01:24:19.390 --> 01:24:23.590
of I had to I had an insight so picture this

01:24:23.590 --> 01:24:27.850
picture the the cliche of You know a person going

01:24:27.850 --> 01:24:32.270
I'm gonna go into nature and read my book and

01:24:32.270 --> 01:24:34.890
I thought the same thing we had we had a holiday

01:24:34.890 --> 01:24:38.130
in China a couple weeks ago And I thought to

01:24:38.130 --> 01:24:41.329
myself I need to get at work. I'm gonna go To

01:24:41.329 --> 01:24:44.229
the lake. I'm gonna bring my book and I'm gonna

01:24:44.229 --> 01:24:47.180
read it And it's gonna be nice and it's all it's

01:24:47.180 --> 01:24:49.479
gonna be I'm gonna be nice and present yeah,

01:24:49.500 --> 01:24:54.220
yeah, yeah, I get there and You know, I'm seeing

01:24:54.220 --> 01:24:58.960
how Peaceful and calming and beautiful nature

01:24:58.960 --> 01:25:04.340
is and Okay, mind you I'm I'm at a place like

01:25:04.340 --> 01:25:09.560
a restaurant on a lake And I I open my book and

01:25:09.560 --> 01:25:12.020
I'm trying to read it but I cannot concentrate

01:25:12.020 --> 01:25:16.819
and I'm thinking to myself what a book does for

01:25:16.819 --> 01:25:21.220
a person. You know, it's an escape. It helps

01:25:21.220 --> 01:25:23.500
them escape. And that's not a bad thing. Like,

01:25:23.680 --> 01:25:27.140
I think it's good to read, like fiction, whatever.

01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:31.340
But you have to be engaged in the book. So the

01:25:31.340 --> 01:25:36.500
paradox for me was I wanted to go and be present

01:25:36.500 --> 01:25:39.979
somewhere and have a cool experience, but I had

01:25:39.979 --> 01:25:42.060
to do it while reading a book. And I thought,

01:25:42.420 --> 01:25:45.430
well, this is a waste. I should be reading my

01:25:45.430 --> 01:25:50.350
book at home, being immersed in the book. And

01:25:50.350 --> 01:25:54.369
while I'm here in this place, I should be just

01:25:54.369 --> 01:25:58.569
sitting and observing and taking it all in. Listening

01:25:58.569 --> 01:26:04.010
to the voices, seeing the sunset, feeling the

01:26:04.010 --> 01:26:07.869
air. And I was just thinking, I'm doing being

01:26:07.869 --> 01:26:09.829
present in the wrong way. And I think a lot of

01:26:09.829 --> 01:26:12.550
people are doing being present in the wrong way.

01:26:12.760 --> 01:26:16.439
and they have this kind of romantic notion of

01:26:16.439 --> 01:26:18.539
how it should be done or something else so romantic

01:26:18.539 --> 01:26:21.699
like, oh, I'm reading a book under a tree. Like

01:26:21.699 --> 01:26:24.359
they see these kinds of images maybe in pop culture

01:26:24.359 --> 01:26:30.100
and they try to mimic them themselves. So I will

01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:34.079
never ever, ever bring a book with me ever again

01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:39.300
anywhere and I will sit and be, you know, present

01:26:39.300 --> 01:26:44.479
in nature. Because like Nicole said, nature heals.

01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:49.659
But I think a lot of people, yeah, I think we're

01:26:49.659 --> 01:26:51.899
being present wrong when you have these kinds

01:26:51.899 --> 01:26:58.060
of other things to distract you and help you

01:26:58.060 --> 01:27:01.119
not, I don't know, help you, but prevent you

01:27:01.119 --> 01:27:07.180
from sitting with yourself. being in the moment.

01:27:07.560 --> 01:27:09.000
Because another thing I observed when I started

01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:11.060
being present was I'm looking at all the people

01:27:11.060 --> 01:27:14.140
out around me and I'm thinking, wow, all these

01:27:14.140 --> 01:27:16.960
people are on their phones. All these people

01:27:16.960 --> 01:27:20.180
are taking pictures of themselves in this beautiful

01:27:20.180 --> 01:27:22.359
place, or they're getting food. I don't know

01:27:22.359 --> 01:27:24.220
if the food was so bad. I suppose you could be

01:27:24.220 --> 01:27:26.760
present, you know, with all the food you're eating.

01:27:26.859 --> 01:27:29.140
But I just thought, I also thought why you don't

01:27:29.140 --> 01:27:31.279
need all those things. I always think when I

01:27:31.279 --> 01:27:34.180
go out, it'll be a waste if I'm not purchasing

01:27:34.180 --> 01:27:38.699
something. as small as like a coffee. So now

01:27:38.699 --> 01:27:41.699
I've been saying to myself, you should not feel

01:27:41.699 --> 01:27:45.119
bad for just going out and existing and just

01:27:45.119 --> 01:27:49.020
like being like, that's all you need. Why can't

01:27:49.020 --> 01:27:51.979
you just be present there? Why do you need a

01:27:51.979 --> 01:27:55.680
thing to like justify, make the experience worthwhile?

01:27:56.079 --> 01:27:58.359
I think that might also be, you know, a symptom

01:27:58.359 --> 01:28:00.720
of our kind of like materialist or like consumer

01:28:00.720 --> 01:28:05.939
driven culture. But as soon as I made that decision,

01:28:06.680 --> 01:28:12.880
I found a great deal more peace. And I didn't

01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:16.859
feel so bad when I just go out. I don't feel

01:28:16.859 --> 01:28:20.579
any kind of guilt or pressure. I can just go

01:28:20.579 --> 01:28:22.539
out and be and not think, oh, I wasted my day

01:28:22.539 --> 01:28:25.859
because I didn't do something, which meant I

01:28:25.859 --> 01:28:29.680
didn't buy something when I was out. I could

01:28:29.680 --> 01:28:31.720
just walk around. I don't know. I could walk

01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:33.119
around a mall. I don't know. I could just do

01:28:33.119 --> 01:28:35.319
anything. I understand old people now when they're

01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:37.840
just wandering. I understand it. I think they're

01:28:37.840 --> 01:28:42.979
more present than we are. You're right. You are

01:28:42.979 --> 01:28:50.739
old. Older than me. Really. You're ancient. Oh

01:28:50.739 --> 01:28:56.699
my gosh. Whatever. I fully agree with you and

01:28:56.699 --> 01:29:00.100
it kind of leans into what my perspective was.

01:29:00.970 --> 01:29:05.029
Quiet acts of resilience that help us to foster

01:29:05.029 --> 01:29:11.329
the positive change within ourselves For me that

01:29:11.329 --> 01:29:14.729
was You know, there's a there's a myriad of ways

01:29:14.729 --> 01:29:17.850
and and at the risk of making everything somber

01:29:17.850 --> 01:29:21.010
I'll bring it back, but my quiet active resilience

01:29:21.010 --> 01:29:24.710
was keeping the steering wheel fucking on the

01:29:24.710 --> 01:29:33.520
road and not going into the bridge and then now

01:29:33.520 --> 01:29:39.020
it's just this thing of living unabashedly. When

01:29:39.020 --> 01:29:43.300
I want to do something, I just do it. I don't

01:29:43.300 --> 01:29:48.960
feel restrained by societal norms and expectations.

01:29:50.109 --> 01:29:52.649
I also want to buy a coffee when I go out, but

01:29:52.649 --> 01:29:55.329
more and more, I'm making the choice not to.

01:29:55.850 --> 01:29:58.890
And one of my biggest weaknesses is when I go

01:29:58.890 --> 01:30:02.369
out and I sit down at a fancy restaurant, I just

01:30:02.369 --> 01:30:05.130
want to order the biggest freaking burger there

01:30:05.130 --> 01:30:07.789
is. Like, my feeling is I'm at this restaurant

01:30:07.789 --> 01:30:10.789
now, I'm here once. Like, let me just get the

01:30:10.789 --> 01:30:13.829
biggest, fanciest meal that they have. Why not?

01:30:14.489 --> 01:30:18.810
Yes, but I don't need it. I don't need it. It's

01:30:18.810 --> 01:30:22.949
so many more calories. Yeah. Like, you're trying

01:30:22.949 --> 01:30:25.609
to, like, feel. Yeah, I understand that. You

01:30:25.609 --> 01:30:29.189
don't want any, you know, bubble teasers. It's

01:30:29.189 --> 01:30:31.850
like you're a junkie. You just want to, like,

01:30:31.850 --> 01:30:34.149
feel better. That's an addiction, I think. That's

01:30:34.149 --> 01:30:38.090
a kind of an addiction. It's an addiction instead

01:30:38.090 --> 01:30:39.689
of questioning. Why do you want this? Why do

01:30:39.689 --> 01:30:41.270
you feel like you need it? You could just be

01:30:41.270 --> 01:30:43.369
stressed out. You could be hungry granted but

01:30:43.369 --> 01:30:45.890
I Go the other way when it comes to going to

01:30:45.890 --> 01:30:47.850
the restaurants I would like to go to a restaurant

01:30:47.850 --> 01:30:49.430
and just be like I just want a cup of coffee

01:30:49.430 --> 01:30:53.270
Thanks, but I feel bad Say something like that.

01:30:53.470 --> 01:30:54.729
Like they're gonna be like, why aren't you ordering

01:30:54.729 --> 01:31:02.470
more? I did that Yeah, and I sat down I ordered

01:31:02.470 --> 01:31:07.079
it Not even a coffee. I ordered a dry burst tea.

01:31:07.920 --> 01:31:15.659
Okay. The waiter was just expecting me. Do you

01:31:15.659 --> 01:31:17.479
guys tip in South Africa? Is tipping a thing?

01:31:18.340 --> 01:31:22.060
Yeah. Wow, that's wild. I wouldn't have expected

01:31:22.060 --> 01:31:24.880
tipping to exist in South Africa. I'm staunchly

01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:29.300
against it. I don't like that. I don't like tipping.

01:31:29.539 --> 01:31:34.329
Tipping is over. Hashtag over with tipping. Sorry,

01:31:34.489 --> 01:31:40.770
Ray. I tipped him well. I don't mind tipping,

01:31:41.250 --> 01:31:44.409
especially if I know that the restaurants aren't

01:31:44.409 --> 01:31:48.050
paying what they should be paying. My first job

01:31:48.050 --> 01:31:50.649
was in exclusive books as a bookstore. Okay.

01:31:50.789 --> 01:31:53.489
In that respect, I understand. I support tipping.

01:31:53.729 --> 01:31:58.869
Yeah. But in Canada, my war is against the restaurants,

01:31:58.989 --> 01:32:05.079
not against the server. Yeah, I'll give the server

01:32:05.079 --> 01:32:08.760
cash. I never probably won't write it down because

01:32:08.760 --> 01:32:12.020
then it stays in the till, right? I don't know

01:32:12.020 --> 01:32:15.720
how. True. I just want everybody to get a livable

01:32:15.720 --> 01:32:17.800
wage and we can just do it. We've been talking

01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:24.720
a lot. Nicole. I just want to add on to this

01:32:24.720 --> 01:32:29.520
point, the art of presence and just coming back

01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:34.579
to the experience on VisionQuest. I think for

01:32:34.579 --> 01:32:39.399
what I want to say to us here, but also to the

01:32:39.399 --> 01:32:45.880
listeners is when you go. On your solo time or

01:32:45.880 --> 01:32:48.359
just tapping out for a little bit and just finding

01:32:48.359 --> 01:32:51.199
that stillness is Realizing that you can't pour

01:32:51.199 --> 01:32:55.520
from an empty cup So it's been giving and giving

01:32:55.520 --> 01:32:58.020
and giving so much to everybody, but what are

01:32:58.020 --> 01:32:59.800
you giving to yourself? What are you gifting

01:32:59.800 --> 01:33:02.100
yourself? You know, what is that opportunity

01:33:02.100 --> 01:33:04.520
that you're allowing yourself just to breathe

01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:08.640
a little bit because Everybody wants something

01:33:08.640 --> 01:33:12.260
up from you. Everyone wants a piece of you, but

01:33:12.260 --> 01:33:18.270
now What more can you give to, you know, to people,

01:33:18.949 --> 01:33:21.289
but there's nothing you can give. There's nothing

01:33:21.289 --> 01:33:23.109
left that you're giving yourself. So it's you're

01:33:23.109 --> 01:33:25.670
blessing yourself with that gift of time and

01:33:25.670 --> 01:33:29.050
presence and just putting your phone on silent

01:33:29.050 --> 01:33:31.829
for just a little bit. The world will continue

01:33:31.829 --> 01:33:34.609
without you for that moment. And just realizing,

01:33:34.609 --> 01:33:37.789
ah, okay, I cannot pull from an empty cup. What

01:33:37.789 --> 01:33:43.000
do I need to do right now? Yeah, I just wanted

01:33:43.000 --> 01:33:47.520
to share that little bit of... Yeah, I find that

01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:50.960
we... Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I

01:33:50.960 --> 01:33:54.460
feel like a lot of people do give more of themselves

01:33:54.460 --> 01:33:57.619
to others than to their own selves. You know,

01:33:57.760 --> 01:34:01.859
I always think... Maybe I'm gonna be... Maybe

01:34:01.859 --> 01:34:03.779
this is me being real vulnerable, but I say to

01:34:03.779 --> 01:34:08.479
myself, you know, Luigi, you have to... When

01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:10.560
you go out you can't be bummed that you're going

01:34:10.560 --> 01:34:11.939
it alone like you have forced have to go out

01:34:11.939 --> 01:34:15.479
and like you have to it sounds so tacky, but

01:34:15.479 --> 01:34:17.340
it's like you have to take yourself on a date

01:34:17.340 --> 01:34:22.439
and You got to love yourself that listen Straight

01:34:22.439 --> 01:34:25.460
hetero cisgender male whatever but like for me

01:34:25.460 --> 01:34:29.539
I have to do that I'm not used to doing you know,

01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:34.399
like giving to myself and that's something Think

01:34:34.399 --> 01:34:37.800
I need to do So that was something also in my

01:34:37.800 --> 01:34:39.920
mind in these past weeks when I was doing these

01:34:39.920 --> 01:34:42.180
things like oh I don't want to go out and I was

01:34:42.180 --> 01:34:45.500
thinking why Are you not good enough to take

01:34:45.500 --> 01:34:48.100
yourself out on a date? Give that to yourself.

01:34:48.100 --> 01:34:51.420
You're willing to to do it to other people and

01:34:51.420 --> 01:34:54.739
take them out on date, but not yourself And that's

01:34:54.739 --> 01:34:58.239
what you should do. Maybe that's better The whole

01:34:58.239 --> 01:35:00.739
kind of cliche thing and love yourself, but that's

01:35:00.739 --> 01:35:04.210
what the you know pouring from an empty cup thing,

01:35:04.550 --> 01:35:06.710
reminded me of. Yeah. And this thing where like,

01:35:07.229 --> 01:35:09.430
we weren't taught these things growing up, like

01:35:09.430 --> 01:35:12.069
taking care of ourselves. You know, we were always

01:35:12.069 --> 01:35:14.750
taught of like giving and showing up for other

01:35:14.750 --> 01:35:18.630
people. So that blueprint is in our minds to

01:35:18.630 --> 01:35:23.029
into our adulthood. But now we are reversing

01:35:23.029 --> 01:35:26.770
that kind of narrative or teaching and saying,

01:35:26.909 --> 01:35:29.500
okay. What does it mean to fall in love with

01:35:29.500 --> 01:35:31.779
myself? What does it mean to gift myself? What

01:35:31.779 --> 01:35:36.460
does it mean to take myself out on a date? Because

01:35:36.460 --> 01:35:38.819
then that's just a thing, and you go back to

01:35:38.819 --> 01:35:42.439
that thing of change and growth. It can be bad,

01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:47.220
it can be good, you know? But it's just that

01:35:47.220 --> 01:35:49.439
thing of this, that we weren't taught these things

01:35:49.439 --> 01:35:52.520
growing up. If we were, we just didn't take note

01:35:52.520 --> 01:35:54.340
of it. We weren't serious about it, but now it

01:35:54.340 --> 01:35:57.010
plays out in our adulthood. And like, oh, what

01:35:57.010 --> 01:35:59.810
is, what does it mean to take care of myself?

01:35:59.810 --> 01:36:02.569
You know, like for me, I struggle to this day.

01:36:02.689 --> 01:36:07.829
I struggle to, um, spoil myself, like buy myself

01:36:07.829 --> 01:36:11.930
flowers to this day, because I can use that money

01:36:11.930 --> 01:36:14.289
and feed someone. I can use that money to give

01:36:14.289 --> 01:36:18.369
to my family, but that is not where I should

01:36:18.369 --> 01:36:20.949
operate from. And then we'll go back to the thing

01:36:20.949 --> 01:36:24.569
of I'm still pouring from an empty cup. The stuff

01:36:24.569 --> 01:36:27.029
that I've learned in the past, was it a waste?

01:36:27.130 --> 01:36:29.689
I'm not practicing what I've learned, you know?

01:36:30.130 --> 01:36:34.810
So it's a daily battle, I think, because we're

01:36:34.810 --> 01:36:38.609
not perfect human beings and we have to go through

01:36:38.609 --> 01:36:41.649
these growing pains to understand, okay, hold

01:36:41.649 --> 01:36:45.210
on, let me just make a decision here. And what

01:36:45.210 --> 01:36:47.430
decision that I'm going to make, I have to live

01:36:47.430 --> 01:36:53.409
with it. So yeah, Luigi, it's the thing of just

01:36:57.659 --> 01:37:00.119
What we've been taught when we were younger is

01:37:00.119 --> 01:37:03.439
it's still relevant today in your life, like

01:37:03.439 --> 01:37:06.020
in our lives or in our journey, whatever, how

01:37:06.020 --> 01:37:08.359
you want to put it, but is it still relevant?

01:37:09.859 --> 01:37:12.100
And what works for you might not work for me

01:37:12.100 --> 01:37:14.180
and vice versa. And that's, that's, that's the

01:37:14.180 --> 01:37:20.659
thing of being okay. With that with the decision,

01:37:20.680 --> 01:37:23.739
you know what the decision you've made or we

01:37:23.739 --> 01:37:27.920
all make Will be okay with living with that consequences

01:37:27.920 --> 01:37:31.760
Yeah, it's an ongoing journey that there's not

01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:37.979
a fix it's not fixed It's messy but it's also

01:37:37.979 --> 01:37:42.420
at the end it's For me, it's the lessons. It's

01:37:42.420 --> 01:37:44.640
the lessons that I get out of it because I know

01:37:44.640 --> 01:37:48.960
okay I don't want to do that again if I do onto

01:37:48.960 --> 01:37:56.279
a different key. Yeah. What a beautiful thing.

01:37:56.819 --> 01:37:59.579
And from my perspective, from what I've seen

01:37:59.579 --> 01:38:04.100
in this episode, it looks like you are taking

01:38:04.100 --> 01:38:07.640
care of yourself wonderfully. I think, and you

01:38:07.640 --> 01:38:13.880
too, Luigi. I think being aware of the possibility

01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:18.710
of change and Taking care of oneself is the first

01:38:18.710 --> 01:38:22.930
step, right? Because without awareness, you're

01:38:22.930 --> 01:38:28.630
in Plato's cave and unable to get out. So, yeah.

01:38:30.770 --> 01:38:34.170
Let's wrap it up there. Ladies and gentlemen,

01:38:34.750 --> 01:38:38.369
thank you so much for listening to this episode

01:38:38.369 --> 01:38:42.010
of Kaleidoscope. If you would like to find out

01:38:42.010 --> 01:38:46.399
more about the Pride Sheltered Trust, Please

01:38:46.399 --> 01:38:49.579
follow them on Facebook at Pride Shelter Trust

01:38:49.579 --> 01:38:53.880
or Instagram at Pride Shelter Trust. You can

01:38:53.880 --> 01:38:59.199
also find them on their website www .pridesheltertrust

01:38:59.199 --> 01:39:05.800
.org .za or you can directly email Nicole at

01:39:05.800 --> 01:39:11.699
director at pride shelter trust .org .za. You

01:39:11.699 --> 01:39:20.289
can find Kaleidoscope at echoember .co .uk, firefromheat

01:39:20.289 --> 01:39:24.170
on Instagram, or heatfromfire on TikTok. You

01:39:24.170 --> 01:39:27.989
can also follow me on YouTube and watch this

01:39:27.989 --> 01:39:34.449
full episode live at YouTube at r -a -e -l -i

01:39:34.449 --> 01:39:39.729
-u. This has been Kaleidoscope with Stride Shadow

01:39:39.729 --> 01:39:40.210
Trust.