Hello, dear listeners. Welcome to Kaleidoscope.
My name is Ruby Ray Lio and today I am joined
by my co -host Luigi and Nicole Alexander, Director
of Fried Shelter Trust, the only LGBTQ shelter
in South Africa. I am Ruby Ray Liu and I am what
happens when you drive too fast on the highway
while thinking about existential problems. Hello,
I'm Luigi and I don't understand sesame seeds
on bagels. It's just so cumbersome. They just
always flake off. I hate it. I bought, let me
tell you, I bought a bag of multigrain bagels
and I was excited for it. because of multigrain,
just not plain white. But it was all riddled
with sesame seeds and stuff. And they just don't
fall off. And it's just a mess to clean up. Anyway,
that's my beef. Do you think that we're making
bagels wrong? And that's why? We've lost the
original recipe? I think, no, I think there's
just, in late capitalism, such a necessity to...
create novelty, that it just makes things even
more frustrating and inconvenient. You got to
sell your bagels. Oh, let's put some things that
fall off on them. And thus we have Sesame Seed
covered bagels. Very nice. Nicole, welcome. Thank
you. Oh, my goodness. I'm holding my loft here.
But yeah, very interesting thought, Luigi. And
I love bagels, actually. So I've been looking
at it very differently now. Sure. I love adrenaline,
like speed and motorbikes. But the funny story
is I don't drive. But that adrenaline of just
speed for me is just, yeah, that's something
that does to my soul that is just like, oh, and
then when you get off that high, it's like, okay,
I've done it. you know but I don't even drive
I don't even sit behind a wheel I don't even
go on a motorbike and I have my reasons why but
that's just the adrenaline of just seeing that
speed for me is like oh okay this is what life
is about but then afterwards it's also just the
chill moment the moment of just relaxing and
just saying oh I made it through you know But
yeah, it's just a wild thought that I sometimes
just look at life in that way. But yeah, this
is who I am. Thinking of really weird things,
but also like how we can incorporate it to your
own journey. Nicole Alexander has a parasocial
relationship with adrenaline and speed. Motorbikes.
And random motorbikes. Yeah. And just watching
them. Excellent. Do you just like sit in a lawn
chair on the road and just watch them go by?
Yeah. It's wild. It's wild. That's pretty cool.
That's what I want to talk about today. So let's
keep that in mind. Put a pin in that. Write it
down. Really good. All right. Well, okay. Well,
yeah. Nicole, you have a perspective, opinion,
something to share with us today. Well, I should
actually say today we are talking about the idea,
the concept of perseverance. Not right. And I'd
like to invite you to lead the way. Sure. Okay.
Wow. This theme and just the conversations, it's
deep. It's not like an everyday cup of tea conversations,
but it's also just what we as an organization,
but also myself, my own personal story is how
do you shift from a state of emergency and survival
to one of long -term healing and genuine living.
And I think that for me is where the resilience
and the perseverance come in, is understanding
where you are right now and acknowledging how
far you've come. Because a lot of my own personal
story was understanding what I needed to go through
to get to a point where I needed healing for
myself. why I needed to understand what makes
me call Nicole despite what society has said
to me or the way I was brought up in the family
and around religious beliefs specifically is
taking those values, but not adding all of them,
but making it your own so that one day I'm able
to teach it and able to fully love. That's the
thing about undiscovering who you are, is once
you discover that either potential or your values,
you are able to live into it fully. And it takes
a while to get there. Not everybody is able or
open to that healing process. And I think that
is where the perseverance and the resilience
come in, is how willing are we as human beings?
as human beings willing to fully go through that
process work of healing. And this is the crux
of our work, is taking an individual and understanding
their story, but also meeting them where they're
at. Because to understand this individual in
terms of and I'm going to take it back to my
own story is before I started this work, my background
is community work, but specifically around youth,
young people in South Africa and myself being
part of the youth bracket. I wanted to do things
differently. I wanted to challenge things that
I needed to understand because what was relevant
for me when I was younger, it's not relevant.
Some of the things not relevant to me today.
But that's all part of the growth process. If
nothing has changed, you didn't grow. If nothing
has changed in my life, I didn't grow. And what
did I do in that time? So I needed to, for myself
to understand what it means to go through that
healing process and come up on the other side
and saying, look, This is my intentions. This
is my mission. This is my calling. And how am
I going to make this happen? Not just for myself,
because what I do is not for me. It's for the
people that come after me. It's for the young
people that comes after me. But there's lessons
that I can teach. I can't teach something I haven't
gone through. And this is kind of the culture
that we... Yeah, we practice at the shelter from
the team to the board that we walk the talk.
And if we see that someone is struggling and
we ask what's happening, yes, the work's important,
but as a leader, as someone who has a mission
to shift things in society and challenge things
in society, we as a team need to go through those
growing pains, if you want to put it that way.
um and yeah persevering and and and sacrificing
um is part of the process so for us it's important
to know what is our intentions what is our goals
what are we trying to achieve because if one
has that um clearly set out the rest of the thing
the rest of what the universe does You would
just end up seeing things happening when we start
to meet new people that want to support the work.
In my own story, part of my healing was I needed
to go for therapy. And just on that point around
therapy, before when I was a teenager, right
into university, I never understood the importance
of mental health. I never understood um what
it means to fully heal um from from words or
from actions from people that didn't value my
existence and that's where my own narrative needed
to change um so it was getting you know new information
and and and meeting new people and that allowed
me to shift my thinking um but it was all in
line to working towards the bigger picture, the
bigger intention, the bigger goal. And from there,
once I realized, okay, this is what I was going
to do, this is what I needed to do, I now had
a clear set plan of how I can need to act with
people, especially people that are supporting
our work. Part of the resilience and the perseverance,
we also speak about transformation. transformation
that has an element of enduring those growing
pains. So it's about reshaping and rebuilding
and recreating your story, reclaiming your story,
reclaiming your narrative, reclaiming your identity,
reclaiming what your future is going to look
like or what your present is currently looking
like. And we do it. And the way that we intentionally
do it is around active process of transformation.
And that means that it's important that we operate
from a people -orientated approach. So when someone
steps into our space, we ask you, what are your
pronouns? In what room do you want to sleep in?
Because that also creates this element of dignity
and restoring what it means to be kind. to each
other. Simple activities, simple ways of interacting
as people, but this is what we lost. This is
what people have lost because of what society
has said, because of what people have placed
the LGBT community in a box. And you're allowed
to do this, you're not allowed to do that. But
for us, our core focus around that transformation
is around reclaiming your story, embracing your
identity, and building what your new future looks
like. So yeah, I can say more, but I also want
to hear what we, if you've got add on to what
I've just currently said, because I also want
to go into what we call the art of presence,
but in trauma -informed care. And that goes more
into the details of how we work with our residents.
But applying it to my own life, 100%. I practice
what I preach and I learn along the way and that
in essence, that's how we are supposed to interact
as human beings. And this is what we teach our
residents. Yes, they add a shelter, but don't
let the space define what your story is. We are
just here as a catalyst. to um to guide you and
and to kind of say look it was okay that you're
going through this it's okay that you know stuff
has happened and here's another way of looking
at your situation here's another way of tackling
your challenges because eventually they're going
to have to leave the shelter and face similar
challenges um so it's getting ready with the
tools that or the new tools that they've gotten
and say look this is how i am And no matter what
the world says or do, I have new weapons of how
I can tackle these challenges. And these tools
are not created to create division. It's about,
again, the tools. Firstly, it's around who am
I as an individual. So we tackle elements around
development. So what it means to be human. Take
it back to basics. What does it mean to be a
person in this world? What does it mean to exist
in this world? And how do we connect that element
to nature? So we use nature also as a tool for
healing. Because there's always connections.
Nature can teach us different tools of how we
can heal. It can also teach us things about how
to take care of ourselves, how to take care of
others, and also how to let go. So nature also
goes through this process of the different seasons.
So as people, what season are you in right now?
What do I need to let go of that has served me
anymore, you know? Yeah. I think Ray, I lost
Ray here. Oh, there you are. It's just a little
echo. I'm yearning. I'm okay. I want to know.
What was your turning point? Was there a moment
in your life that went from, I've been doing
- Wow. I think if you've met me four years ago,
five years ago, I was in that space. The shifting.
Okay. So yes, I was. It was actually when I started
at Pride Shelter. Coming into the space, coming
into the sector. around homelessness, specifically
working with the LGBT community. I came in very
naive and I came in with a mindset of, oh, there's
rainbows and unicorns and love is love and there's
no hate in the world. But in reality, in this
country, it was the total opposite. And being
a person, a queer person in South Africa, it
was a huge shock because That's not how the world
should operate but I was in my own bubble and
and life just gave me so many lessons Firstly
is was understanding the sector needed. I need
to understand What is homelessness? What does
it mean? Looking for research that's available
in South Africa around homelessness looking for
research that's available around homelessness
specifically for the LGBT community and it was
a struggle for me to find some sort of starting
point. And at that time, the organization was
also at a stage of transitioning from previous
management into new management. So there was
a lot going on. But at the same time, we were
also hit with COVID. And that for me was my breaking
point. It was just a moment. It's like if one
more thing just lands on my plate. I'm going
to die. That's how bad it was. But I needed to
understand that I needed to be okay to lead this
organization. I needed to understand what am
I still holding onto that I'm not able to move
forward? What am I not seeing that other people
are seeing, but this work still needs to continue?
I went on... There was a moment where I resigned
because I wasn't getting any support from the
board back then. I was like, I can't do this
alone and I'm not getting any support from people
that brought me in to do this work. And I said,
I'm done, I'm finished. And the moment I did
that, I think everybody just got a wake up call
because who's going to lead and... run this organization
if management is going, you know, and this is
such important work that I was like, I can do
it somewhere else. But deep down in my soul,
I was like, okay, maybe I'm just being tested,
you know, maybe I need to just stay a little
bit and just stick it out. But something profound
really happened in those meetings. with the board
and I was just like, if things don't change on
this level, I can do something else. Because
at that stage in my life, I was also ready to
leave South Africa and do community work in another
country, but also the safety in this country
was just getting too much. And then I didn't
feel the support. But then between 2021 and 2022,
I made a decision, okay, let me just take a little
bit of a break. Let me step back and understand
what is my intention coming into this space?
What am I going to do? What do I need to let
go of? And I had an opportunity to go on a rites
of passage, which is also known as a vision quest.
But this was also just an experience that I'm
very familiar with from my previous work. And
this is the process or one of the tools where
we use nature for healing and we use nature to
reconnect with ourselves. And that process was,
for me, a turning point, personally, but also
professionally. And it took me on an experiential
learning Process where I really had to wait.
Yeah, we are really had to unpack What was going
on with myself mentally what was going on myself
physically spiritually and everything that makes
us human what makes me human and letting go because
I was sitting with a lot of frustration I was
sitting with a lot of sadness and I think I was
going to head into depression because of I said
a big expectation for this work, but things were
not going according to plan. So then what the
universe did, it gave me a big wake -up call.
So I needed to re -evaluate a lot of my own values
and what makes me me because whatever I'm going
to discover about myself, it's going to have
to be displayed in the organization. It has to
be taught or a mentor or practice, um, within
pride shelter. So when I came out of that nine,
nine days experience, um, I showed up with an
intention and that intention is speaking around,
you know, this is who I am. So I am a spiritual,
you know, a spiritual woman. I am a leader. Um,
I am a person who heals. can be healed so it's
being open not just to my own personal story
but to the wider context of you know working
and contributing to society and the moment I
had that clear intention and a clear purpose
and I'm like okay now the work's going to start
and I kid you not the moment I came back out
of the mountains and came back to work things
automatically just started falling into place
and therefore me I had to also acknowledge the
staff because they allowed me to go into those
spaces of, you know, taking care of myself, taking
care of not only what I'm going to contribute
to this organization, but the key and the understanding
of giving me this time off and recharging. Just
saying thank you to them because now that I've
come back, I come back with new thinking, I come
back with new ideas. So even to this year or
even whenever I go and leave, the staff always
make fun of me, saying like, oh, so you have
new ideas? Now we're going to have more work.
But that is just because of just taking a little
break, stepping back from the work, stepping
back from the course and saying, okay. Let me
just re -evaluate. Am I still relevant? Or are
we still relevant doing this? Oh no. Do you have
some questions first? I think I need clarification
with because sometimes I don't pay attention.
I know a lot. Ruby knows a lot. She knows a lot
about Pride Shelter. Yeah, she knows a lot about
Pride Shelter but I think it's important we ask
these on camera because maybe the viewers will
know. So Pride Shelter Trust, not your invention.
You joined and it's the only one. Not mine. Okay.
When did it start? So it started in 2011. Okay.
And I only started at Pride Shelter in 2019.
Right. But before I knew this organization existed.
Yeah. Yeah. So how did you discover it? I came
through a friend, a friend and a friend. Okay.
Um, at the end of 2018, I mean, like I was mentioning
earlier, and I was ready to leave South Africa
and just take a little bit of a break. Um, but
then this opportunity came, well, not Prychalter,
I was supposed to originally, um, manage a gay
Muslim organization called the Inner Circle,
also known as Al -Fitra. And then Al -Fitra Foundation
took over Pride Shelter in 2018. So when I signed
up for work, for this work, I didn't know that
Al -Fitra was part of Pride Shelter. So then
I couldn't manage two organizations and I had
to strategically look at, let me work on something
that's tangible and what people can see. And
I went for Pride Shelter. So the Muslim Gay Organization,
is currently on pause. Yeah, so my energy is
fully invested with Bright Shelter. Fair, yeah,
okay. I guess, and I guess this is more statistic,
but what do you think the main reason for LGBT
people seeking out shelter? Specifically LGBT.
Well, the people who come to your shelter, what's
their main reason? Because, you know, I have
my suspicions based on, you know, what I know,
like let's say the history of queer people needing
shelter in America. And I'm just wondering if
it's the same. So, you know, the main reason
I find is that, you know, they're kind of abandoned
by their families when they come out and they've
got nowhere else to go. And luckily these shelters,
Exist and I'm just wondering if the dynamics
Are the same? Yeah. No, thank you for that question
So in South Africa because we are so diverse
with cultures and traditions And if you're looking
at the broader African continent same thing very
diverse different cultures So some of the reasons
When I'm speaking for our foreign nationals that
we serve they come to South Africa. They run
for their lives They run because they came up
to their families and they're going to be killed
by their families. That's one of the major reasons
our foreign nationals come to South Africa. But
also with the hope of they will receive safety
in South Africa because of our constitution that
protects us as LGBT, well supposed to protect
us as LGBT community. When I look at South Africans,
Similar story running for your life because of
you know violence within family and because it's
not accepted religious beliefs and traditions
And and people just wanting to have a sense of
belonging so we have Individuals that has been
shelter hopping and just wanting to feel safe
not just at home, but because they wanting to
find a reason to exist. So shelter hopping, going
from one shelter to the next, there's no other
shelter that speaks about, you know, how to,
that there's no other shelter here that would
ask you, okay, so what room would you want to
be, what you want to sleep in or how do you identify
as? It's traditionally male, female. The other
reasons that we've had is people wanting to live
in their full potential, but because of the homophobic
and just exclusion from society, that they're
so discouraged that they don't want to grow further.
They've just been knocked down with so many rejection.
that they just give up and that would lead to
suicide and that would lead to ending up homeless.
That would lead to surviving on the streets and
just getting by. So yeah, that's the main reasons
why people come to the shelter. One of the things
that I have always wondered is if somebody finds
himself on the street, some place that I have
felt myself potentially close to being within
the last two years. How do they find you? Because
I had the resources to look, right? I am not
in a place of poverty or desperation. But if
you are, if you lose your phone, if you don't
have access to the internet, How does this happen
to find someone? So we depend a lot on referrals,
so we don't just take from the street and recruit.
So it's important for us to go through a referral
process. And specifically for those who don't
have technology access to sending us an email
or WhatsApp, the government... which is the Department
of Social Development, which is one of our partners,
is going to their offices and explaining a situation
and they would refer them to us because they
have their own screening process. And the first
thing we'll ask, do they belong to the LGBT community?
If it's not through government, it will be through
our other partners, other queer organizations
that work with individuals. with the queer individuals.
And again, same process. You apply to get into
the space because it's so limited. And in the
social worker, she has to do a screening and
an interview because she has to understand what
is she going to work with for the next three
months because that's the period how long you
stay at the shelter. And not only that, she also
has to be aware of the safety of the other people
in the house when taking on a new person. So
yeah, it's referrals, it's word of mouth. And
for those that have what we've experienced, especially
in the rural areas and spaces where, you know,
technology is a challenge. If people are in need,
in desperate need, they would make, they would
go to the ends of the earth, even walking. So
we've had people that Either borrowed money to
get to the shelter or simple for example our
foreign nationals Fleeing from either Ghana or
Tanzania or any of these countries coming to
Cape Town specifically and if you hear this story
like My problem is so small. You know, like the
hurdles that and and all of that and then Yeah,
so so for us is important that the referral system
is in place because of our limited space that
we have available. On the other hand, of how
we flip that script is challenging shelters that's
been operating for the last 20 years the same.
Changing your policy according to the constitution
because as a shelter, as a private shelter, we
cannot do this alone. How long are you going
to operate, you know, male -female? How long
are you going to operate from a point of recycling
homelessness, allowing people to come back to
the system. And what do they learn? What have
they learned? So yeah, I hope I'm answering your
question. There's more to unpack there. I have
a lot more questions. So you've mentioned a couple
of times male -female space, which is obviously
quite close to my heart, not because I actually
face adversity. Um, where we are for me, it's
very easy to, um, go to the right bathroom for
instance. And you mentioned, um, where, when
somebody comes into the, into the shelter, you
ask them which room they want to sleep in. And
I'm not asking this for me. I'm asking this for
the listener who might be. questioning from a
place of fear about men in women's spaces, very
big inverted commas. How do you find that narrative
affecting the people within the shelter and maybe
from others? shelters that you speak to, to try
and change their policy to be more gender inclusive.
Sure. How do I answer this? That's a big one.
I think it all comes back to what is the culture
and the ethos of what you practice in your workspace.
So for us as a team, it's important that we create
that safe container where we create just that
energy of saying, oh, people here. So it's important
for us as a team to be constantly trained into
not being judgmental. What does it mean to be
people -orientated? What does it mean when someone
is experiencing a crisis? So for us as a team,
for me specifically, it's operating from a point
of calmness and non -judgmental and realizing,
just working with people and with their fears
and this is where their story is right now. And
it comes back to that thing of meeting people
where they're at. So if I put myself in this
story is, During that years of when I had a little
bit of a mental breakdown, I went for therapy,
but I went to the government facilities because
it's free. And the psychologist that was supposed
to hear my story, my first question was, which
I was just like shocked. They asked me, what
does LGBT stand for? And that for me was not
only shocking, but that was 2003. And I'm sitting
in that office and I'm like, I want to share
what's on my heart and how I'm feeling. But this
person doesn't even know what LGBT stands for.
And I left the room. And then I have to think
about what residents have to go through when
they access these government spaces or spaces
where you're supposed to feel safe, where you're
supposed to feel like you belong. And I just
left. And that is where I was like, what? If
we're going to focus on psychosocial support
at this organization, this is not what I want
our residents to experience. And if they do access
our government facilities or facilities that's
free, we can challenge it in a way that it's
not going to be defensive, but in a way where
we can skill people, where we can skill our health
care system, where we can skill our partners
that run shelters. um because it's just a bit
of new information it's just like hey come on
we're not we're not living here in in in in the
years of you know not having access we've got
loads of access but who is who's who's more who
has um the privilege to access that information
and and resources so that for me Was where we
had to create what does it mean as a team to
create that safe container for our residents?
Is showing them that respect we respect ourselves.
This is how we show respect to you Because once
they leave the shelter They have to understand
this is what it means to be human again, you
know Yes, you're going and we're going to be
challenged with for example the the bathroom
situation That's constantly going to happen once
they go to work. And do you want to cause a scene
because of you can't go into that bathroom, but
let's challenge what the system has put you in.
The system can be changed. I think it's because
of the fear of not having the support because
it's only you alone. And if you have backup,
the right backup. the backup that's going to
make the right noise. I'm not here to break things
down. I'm not here to, you know, burn a tire.
Well, that people do that, but there's creative
ways of to get your message across. And there's
new information that you can challenge the system.
So that is what we teach. That is what we, yeah,
we try to just shift a little bit of that mindset.
Yeah. Yeah. I think Naweiji definitely has a
few more questions. Yeah, not so, not so... Actually,
no, I do have, I do have, okay. So earlier you
mentioned that, you know, you said change equals,
you know, change equals, you said change equals
growth, but I have to wonder, does all change
really equal growth, even bad change? Or is it...
Do you think that or lord do both of you think
that you know, you have to make an active choice
to look for I Guess the growth in that change
there's something bad happens to you. I know
people might say when you're in bad situations
that You know, yes, you do go through growth
but I don't know. I don't, I don't think that's
always the case. No, you're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right. And I think that's up
to, you know, up to the individual because whatever
choice you have, whatever choice you make, you
got to live with the consequences, whether good
or bad. Um, and this is just my own experience
is that whatever choice I've made, I have to
know that I'm going to live with it. I cannot
blame the next person because I know that I made
that decision based on XYZ. And I made a lot
of bad decisions, you know, but it's always for
me to find, yes, I've gone through that shitty
moment, sorry for my language, but what did I
learn out of that? Sorry, I don't know. Yeah,
I don't want to use too much. Okay. I'm a good
boy. I don't swear on camera. I've caught him
only once on camera. Yeah, and she should have
taken it up. Oh my goodness. No, but like what
I'm saying is that I've made a lot of shitty
decisions and I had to live with it. But for
me, what I've learned and what I've been guided
by, mentors and people that I kind of look up
to is that there's always tiny lessons or something
that you can take from it. And I'm speaking just
from a point of, you know, where I'm at in my
own growth journey. Yes, every day is not the
same, but I think because of that intention that
I had set up, you know, years back, making decisions
now, and responding to those consequences based
on their decisions, I can respond to it differently.
Whereas before if I didn't go through my healing
process, I will still be angry and frustrated
and burn things and say the most things and it's
an ugly side of me that I was living in. So for
me it's just flipping that script and saying
I don't want to operate from a point of frustration,
you know. And not everybody can get to that point.
And it's a journey every day. The intention is
saying, okay, I know I'm going to have to make
a decision somehow or somewhere or the other.
Am I willing to live with that consequences,
whether good or bad? I think there's a point
where change is coming from yourself. And that
change is good when you make the active choice.
But I also think there is a space where change
happens to you. And because of that change, you
go into a bad space. And from that perspective,
maybe it's not good. The question is, is there...
Is there growth? Something bad happens to you,
you're forced to change. Is that a kind of growth?
Even if it's negative? Yes, I would agree. I
would agree. That's growth because what I define
as growth, you might not agree. What you define
as growth, I might not agree. But it's not for
me to, whatever your story is around that, it's
not for me to judge it. And I think that is where
the disconnect or the misunderstanding comes
in. You know what I mean? Your story is your
story. My story is my story. When you put it
that way, it becomes a question of paying attention
to good or bad. Kind of like justifying growth
if it's good and not if it's bad. Because, I
don't know, let's take a plant for example. Sometimes
plants... Half that's really remedial, I guess
but they have bad growth on but it's still growth
and it doesn't benefit the plant But it's happening
to the plant. So they are being stimulated by
something in their environment. It's still growth
Is it good not necessarily but it's still gross
So I guess the same can happen to us How do we
as plants? How do we how do we? You know Address
it, fix ourselves, heal ourselves, whatever.
Do we have the capacity to do that? Are we fixed
in our thinking or do we have a... Sounds really
schlocky. Do we have a growth mindset? Ruby,
do we have a growth mindset? Yeah, we definitely
have a growth mindset. Ruby does. Minds I think
is limited. I think I lean more towards fix in
my old age. Know it's not good or maybe paradoxically
because I recognize that maybe I do have a growth
mindset. I'm just really lazy You are not old
okay, okay, you may be great But you are not
I wasn't I wasn't fishing for someone to say
you're not I have no problem You saying you're
old makes me old You're younger than me. I think
it's such a dichotomy of making the positive
choice to grow or allowing yourself to sink into
a place of despair. And I don't think that it's
easy for people to always recognize when that
point is, and sometimes you're required to go
past that point for that point to break. And
when it breaks, you gain, when you're in free
fall and you can finally go, Oh damn, I need
to do something right now. And when I started
this podcast, I said, I'm what happens when you're
going. fast on the highway for too long and thinking
about something existential. My breaking point,
I also asked you what was your breaking point.
Mine was I used to work in Luigi's school and
driving home, sitting in traffic, but I snuck
out early and I was able to get home faster.
And I perceived myself as being quite happy.
But one day, I was going too fast and under a
bridge, and I was wondering if I went fast enough
to guarantee death, if I hit the side of the
bridge. What? That sounds like a Nicholas Winding
Ref and film. And that is, yeah. And that's when
I went, I need to desperately find something.
to help me immediately. And I had been cross
-dressing for a while. And I'd also been browsing
online, doing research, trying to figure out
if I can transition in complete denial. I've
said it before. I would go into a pharmacy and
look for a misplaced estrogen. I would check
creams for women to see if they had estradiol
2 in. Just to try. Of course, like completely
cisgender. Were you cisgender? No. But I would
have told you that I was and I was unaware of
the fact that I'm not. Okay. Yeah. Because that's
what I think it to, like, you're telling yourself
it's true, but obviously you were not, you're
not denying. I was denying it, yeah, of course.
Here I was, trust -dressing, but refusing to
cross, one of the things that held me back for
a very long time. And I've also spoken about
this, but it's tangentially related, so it's
never been connected. I was in a lot of debt.
I was not financially secure. And it took me
a long time to dig myself out of that. And the
moment I did, the moment I had a little bit of
expendable cash, I could finally do what I've
always wanted to do. And that is to cosplay properly,
but not to cosplay, to cross dress, but to do
justice in a way. And what I didn't realize was...
I was living through dysphoria and to do this
thing that bigots and transforms push. man in
a wig or I've heard cock in a frock. There's
a whole myriad of litany of slurs for being transgender.
But one of the things that gave me dysphoria
is to... want to do it justice. I would never,
ever, ever want to be a parody of a woman because
I am one. My mind wouldn't connect the two. My
breaking point was that, and then I met this
girl online during COVID who I was really, I
read her story on Reddit because I was desperately
searching for people in China who could connect
me to someone to get me estrogen. And she said,
I know a person. Here you go. And two days later,
I had a box of estrogen and the floodgates. That
was now. What's the date? Four days ago. That
was 10 months, 11 months, 10 months ago. I didn't
mean to laugh for you, I was laughing because...
You can laugh! No, it should be... It's really
adorable. I give credit to cosplayers because
they really go up. I won't say I think it's silly.
I don't know. I understand the cosplayer. There's
so much cosplaying in China. And it blows in
my mind how invested a lot of people are in just
getting like amazing, I'll say uniforms. I saw
the other day, I was out and this girl, so for
the listeners, it's common for people to make
a day of getting dressed up and taking pictures
of themselves as a character they're cosplaying
as. And they're so devoted to the kinds of costumes
they have. And it's impressive because when you
look up close at these people, their face is
just covered in so much makeup. They put weird
lines and stuff that... Tran that it translates
different onto the camera, but when you see them
in person, it's just really silly like hard jagged
lines It's a new kind. It's a it's a makeup technique
Girls do it you leave you to know about it Anyway,
it's great on the on the concept of cosplaying
right now I have a question for you Nicole, but
something I need to say One I'm cosplaying as
Panty from the anime panty and stocking with
a garter belt. It's a wild adult anime and these
two angels, one is named Panty and one is named
Stalker. Her panty turns into a gun and they're
both angels and they have to earn heaven coins
to get back to heaven. I am cosplaying as Panty
and all of the parts for my costume that I am
making is arriving or has arrived today. Congratulations.
Wait a minute. Amazing. Let's go off. Let's go
off. I'll send you photos. So in this universe,
the, so assuming there's a heaven in this universe,
the girl needs to get into heaven by getting
heaven, what are they called? Heaven points,
heaven points. Okay. And she has a pair of panties
that turns to a gun. That's really violent. Why
would heaven? Accept them. Panty and stockings
defeat demons, and when they defeat a boss demon,
they get a heaven coin. Stockings turn into sores,
and panty's panty turns into... Garter Belt is
a non -binary, bearded person, and I don't know
what his Garter Belt does. It is definitely a
queer -coded show. Yes. Because you've got these
two girls, panties that turn into a gun. A phallic
symbol and stockings that turn into swords, phallic.
That's really cool. Okay. Now I'm going to watch.
On the idea of cosplaying, I have a question
for you, Nicole. There is a game here in China
called Tian Yu Shi Kong. It is worldwide. There
are four characters, a doctor, mermaid, and five
characters now, a brother, and this mob boss
dude, and this alien who is stranded on earth.
It is wildly popular among women all over the
world. They grossed like 24 million US dollars
in a month last year. Say the name again, Ruby.
I want to look. There you are, Shun Kong. Love
and Deep Space is the name of this game. There's
a fad in China where women... Okay, there's also
an all -men movement here right now. Women are
cosplaying as these guys who are your boyfriend
in the game. You can court all five of them.
Yes. So women are cosplaying as these guys and
renting out their time as escorts to date other
women. So they're pretending to be the men. They
are, yes, they are embodying that character for
the day. And women want to rent them to engage
in the fantasy. that of this man. Exactly. I
can understand that. And I can understand why
women themselves would do it because I feel like
they would have a better understanding of performing
as this man for the other women. Where as I think
men, I'm sure maybe men do it too. I want the
calls out. No, men don't do it. Oh, they don't.
They don't make any money. They fail immediately.
Oh really? But though girls succeed. That's interesting.
Super popular. Can we rent one for a day? A lot
of them only go on dates with girls. That is
wild. Why haven't I ever heard of this? Well,
I'm hearing about it now, but still. What's the
outcome of that? What do they learn out of? Before
I answer your question, what do they want to
get out of that experience? I could imagine.
Companionship? Companionship, sure, but it's
definitely the fantasy. Yeah. of the game. And
I should ask my partner. It's a kind of pleasure
there. Yeah, cause she plays. But what are your
thoughts? My thoughts, I've got loads of questions.
It's the first time I'm hearing about this. Yeah,
it caught her off guard. It's so bizarre. Yeah,
it's new thing. This is, yeah. So I think if
I put myself in that, game or fantasy and hiding.
So it's basically a female pretending to be a
man. Cosplaying as a man. How does it work? Okay.
Are these women clear? Yeah, I think. Are they
what? That would be my question. The women in
cosplay, are they clear or are they? That was
like my primary question. Is it lesbian or? Is
it queer? Is it LGBT quoted? Or is it just business?
If it's just a kind of play, I think it depends.
There comes like a point, they cross a line where
it can be defined as queer or not. Now if there's
just these, let's say cis women cosplaying and
then, you know, doing like a dialogue or acting
out a social dynamic with these girls and it
doesn't go further than that, then you could
argue it's cis, I guess, it's straight. But if
there comes a point where they're doing things
that are culturally considered, like, I don't
want to say sexual, but I don't have a better
word for it. So like, even in China, let's say,
like, something that would be considered like
a kind of courting, I guess, historically would
be like even holding hands would mean like, a
boyfriend and girlfriend, that's serious. Ooh,
they're holding hands in public. So like that
point, if that happened, there'd be that kind
of like tipping point. So then you could argue,
yes, it is queer. Even if it's business, oh,
I don't know, that's so tough. Yeah, Nicole,
what do you think? Yeah, sure. Look, I'm looking
at this in a way we, again, I guess... If I'm
thinking about this particular game and the fantasy
intentions behind it, as this thing about Luigi
was saying, is it for companionship or is it
just, you know, there's other reasons of why.
Yeah, it's so mind blowing. Like whatever it
is, it's cool. Absolutely. Look, I'm not against
it. It's just understanding, you know, what am
I going to get out? What is this experience I'm
getting? Because what's interesting is that you're
saying, Ray, your partner is participating. And
how does that impact you, you know, being part
of that? Because you aren't indirectly impacted.
So I'm just like, if I know that I'm going to
partake in this experience, it doesn't impact
me alone, but those around me, you know? I know,
so what am I going to get out of this experience?
Yeah, it's still mind blowing. It's mind blowing.
A lot of interesting questions pop up. What did
you ask, Luigi? What I wanted to say was, I think
that we're trying to decide when it becomes a
queer act, but really we would have to ask the
person or persons engaging in it. the woman who's
paying, she would have to say whether she is
queer or not, and the woman working would have
to say if they are queer or not. It's as simple
as that. I think whatever is happening as well,
the women ordering the service is participating
in a cisgendered heteronormative act of dating
a male character from a story. On the surface?
From the perspective of the person providing
the service. And it's not obviously, it's when
I say escort, it's like a, it's a date. It's
you just go out with them. It's a photo op and
stuff like that. They might be rare. they might
be queer, who knows? That's gonna be a self -identification
thing. Yeah, so what would happen in a case where,
you know, emotions start developing, is that
against the rules? Like, yeah, just part of the
experience I'm discovering, oh, but I'm attracted
to this and this of the person. That's against
the rules. I don't think there are rules. These
are sole proprietors doing this. They're not
working for organizations. I mean, I think it's
no different than the kind of man who falls in
love with his sex worker, right? I mean, it's
a good possibility the people paying end up falling
in love with that person. Would you call it a
parasocial relationship? Maybe. Depends how attached
that uh server let's say is to the the client
but it reminds me of like host bars in japan
where women pay to go to host bars and they they
develop a relationship with the workers and the
workers know they develop a relationship with
them and it's an avenue to make you know to exploit
them even more and make so much money it's definitely
going into his face of breaking the paris social
barrier because there's opportunity for content.
But I think we've strayed a bit. Do we ever really,
do we ever really stray in this podcast? Isn't
that the whole point? Otherwise it wouldn't be
a pet microscope. That's right. You have definitely
shown up for me and been present for me. And
so did Nicole. Thank you so much for, actually,
I want to tell you that you kicked off this mini
-series where we are going to be diving into
LGBTQ activism in South Africa. Thank you. Thank
you. I'm humbled. I'm humbled by that. Thank
you. Yeah, sure. But can I just add on, just
before we close off that conversation? No, we're
not done yet. We're not. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm still thinking because the way I am also
looking at it is the way how we express ourselves
in our gender. Part of the trainings and sessions
that I run with organizations or individuals,
we talk about gender expression. and attraction
and, you know, our sex characteristics. And maybe
I would think this would be, you know, this game
would basically explore that thing of gender
expression. The stuff that I want to explore,
I can't explore with my partner. The stuff that
I want to explore around my values or identity
that My partners are open to it yet, but he has
a safe way of doing it. Let me explore it knowing
that the stranger that I mean to acting with
that they also on that kind of same journey or
same kind of thinking it's all about like and
like revealing a Fantasy that you've always wanted
to do, you know, but looking at a way of maybe
my partner's not ready to do it yet But because
I'm open to my partner about it, they are allowing
me to experience this for myself and for my own
growth That was a study I was just looking at
it in that way because yeah, it makes me it's
it's a cool idea And yeah, I think I want to
do it test it with the residents which again
is going to challenge that thing of what it means
to be human. What it means to be fully human
without being judged and without allowing society
and their nonsense and their rumors and all of
these negative things. How can I challenge that
voices but still show up fully for myself? So
I'm also looking at it in that way. Yeah, still
very curious. And I think it's not for everybody,
which you also need to be, you know, aware of
and conscious that everybody would be comfortable.
Yeah, I guess to be open to that kind of experiential
learning, you can want to put it that way. Yeah.
I said my partner plays, this is an online game.
It's basically a card game that tells a story.
So to narrative. There's long form of entertainment
and it's become so popular that it's given rise
to this new thing where you can hire someone
to go on a date with you as that person. It's
not something that I would do because I don't
think I need to explore. I'm past that. that
need for exploration. I'm exploring higher picks,
so. Do you think it's exploration though? Like
the girls who rent the boys, is it exploration
for them? Or do they know what they want? To
me, it doesn't sound like exploration. It doesn't
sound like the people cosplaying as the man to
rent are exploring unless... you know, they are
questioning their sexuality and this is a weirdly
safe avenue. Dude, I don't think it is because
it's a business for them, right? They have to
pay. From the perspective of the person hiring,
it could be exploration. It could be having given
up on men because they've had so many bad experiences.
Sure, yeah. You and I both have our own opinions
on the dating culture here. So from that perspective,
it can be exploring then with the marriage pressure
to be able to date someone and have a romantic
experience outside of the pressure of dating.
I think that's important as well. A myriad of
possibilities. How do we show up and be present
for them? I think I mean obviously you just you
know pay attention on That's it Make sure you're
I'm trying to segue into your ah But I wanted
to listen. I know I always have I always have
my Things I I want to ask but then the guests
always you know say interesting things that I
want to know but okay Nicole You mentioned out
this Again, this is kind of another tangent,
but I'm really interested now. You said he went
on a vision quest. I'm wondering I'm so cute
like How do I do it? I want to do that How do
you do a vision quest? I know so many people
who do things like that You know, they all have
their experiences some of them involving, you
know, uh Adelix I've known people who've gone
to like Thailand and like licked frogs or took
some like black goo that was squeezed out of
a frog It's a weird meditation. I think it's
cool. I'd like to do that someday. But I'm just
curious, how did you go about with your vision
quest? Is it something you're practiced in? Was
it a one -time thing? How did you do it? Yeah,
sure. So, the first time I ever encountered a
vision quest was during my years of studying.
When I'm thinking about it now, we all do vision
quests in our own way, but I think it's just
the terms that we use. Vision quest, it can be
called the rites of passage. It can be called
change of life. It can be called, you know, cycle
of life. And, and we all have some sort of way
of how we do a vision quest and rites of passage.
So this is how I explained it. And please stop
me if I'm, if I'm. Too much Yeah, waffling or
this too much information but for the time I
discovered vision quest was in my fourth year
of university and The way I understood it there's
no religious attachments. There's no Traditional
attachments and because we were a group of diverse
young people it was just basically um, introduced
in a way where you are now at a point in your
life where you are about to step into the next
phase of your, of your, of your journey. And
in order for you to get there, you have to mock
and acknowledge how far you've come, whether
it be good, bad, the ugly, you have to acknowledge
this is where I've come. And then from that,
you have to now let go, let go of what has hold
you back. Let go of the stuff that you're still
struggling with, but can still work on, but just
fully surrender to the universe. In simple terms,
fully surrender to, okay, I'm here as Nicole,
I'm here as a daughter, I'm here as a partner,
I'm here as just a person who's existing. And
it's all done in the mountains, which is, we
went on a It's a two hour drive out of the city
and it's beautiful mountains. And those mountains
I used to work with. That was the previous organization
I was working at. And space is set up in a way
where it's going to be just about you and just
about breaking and rebuilding and understanding
what has really hurt me. What has really... um
cause the trauma and that could go to like for
me my story was family shit family trauma and
I couldn't I was operating in a space where I
couldn't see eye to eye with either my mom or
you know family members because something is
starting to shift for me my thinking is starting
to shift my heart the way I respond to people
is starting to shift But there's people in my
family still remaining the same. Um, but in order
for them to be in my life, there's something
that I have to change in terms of the way I react
to it, because they will never change. And that's
a fact, but the way I shop in the world, this
is how I'm going to shop for my own sanity, for
my own wellbeing, for my own mental health in
the end. Um, so this process, it's, it's the
first three days that prepping you. around cleansing
of the mind, cleansing of your soul, cleansing
you physically, so preparing you for four days
and four nights of fasting. And if I take that
back of that fasting alone in Christianity for
myself, for my spiritual growth, I also practice
fasting. So it's cleansing my body, getting rid
of the clutter, getting rid of... Why am I getting
sick, you know, because all everything of that
physical wellness is linked to your mentality
It's linked to your emotions. So it's cleansing
and Once you step into those four days and four
nights step into there With an intention of what
am I going to work on? So in my story I was working
on The pain and the trauma of the previous board
that just left me and the LGBT community that
I thought that was here to support me to do this
work. That was the trauma I was sitting with.
And another part to that story was because I
was not productive in my work, it was impacting
me personally. So my health became like it was
getting to a point where I I had to take medication
and I'm not for one for taking medication. So
high blood pressure tablets, I was closely going
on antidepressants. So all of those factors had
an impact on me and my body and I just needed
a break. So part of the vision quest is just
dealing with, oh my goodness, this person hurt
me. This person didn't do what they said they
would. what they said they were promised to do.
And there was a whole lot of lists, but it really
had, I really had to be open. If you're not open
to that experience, and that's the thing of that
intention is, because they ask you the question
before you go onto this process, why do you want
to do this? Because if you don't have that, if
you don't have the reason why you want to go,
the process in between or the interventions in
between, it's going to be a bit of a struggle
because you won't be able to connect mind, body,
soul to the process or to the experience. And
in my four days and four nights of fast, I mean,
the experience for me, I had wild dreams of my
ancestors. I had dreams of what my future might
look like. I had dreams of the people that hurt
me. um but in that four nights and four days
of fasting you're also on your own so it's a
solo i don't see anybody i'm just there with
the boons and just the wild but it's also just
how do how do i remind myself that i'm in their
territory they're not in my territory so it's
nature and i'm like okay in order for me to survive
this night I have to make peace that I'm going
to see baboons and I'm going to see other wild
animals because that's also a form of safety
and connecting with nature and saying I'm here,
I'm surrendering and whatever needs to happen
needs to happen. But also just being very focused
on the goal at the end. Coming out of that experience,
now you come back to your community. So who is
this new person that has gone through this experience
and what has happened in those four days and
four nights, you share a bit of that story because
it's important to share it with your community
that's going to hold you accountable in the end,
knowing that they've journeyed with you through
this kind of therapeutic, you can call it, healing
process. They are the people that's going to
catch you when you fall. They are the people
that's going to catch you when you need support.
But also remind you of This is your intention.
This is what you work towards. And it's a painful
experience. For me, it was painful, like emotionally
painful. But I needed to shift my thinking. I
could not operate from a point of hate and exclusion
because that is not what I'm here to serve. This
is not why I'm here to serve. And every time
when I find myself at a point where I'm not aligned
with my purpose and my intention, I go back to
staleness. I go back to nature and just like,
okay, I did what I thought I should do, but what
is going on now? So it's important for me and
to keep me sane. It's just going back to that
place of staleness. I don't go to church. I am
a Christian, but I don't see the bolding as,
you know, my connection and my relationship to
God, but I have my ways of being still and what
works for you, works for you, what works for
me, works for me. And that's the thing about
what we teach again at the shelter is that spiritual
element of how do we connect self to nature and
practice it in a safe way. So yeah, that's in
a nutshell, what a vision quest or what rites
of passage is. And then just to add on what,
just the everyday. Um, examples, because I know
there's this thing of like, uh, it comes back
to that native American teachings of sending,
you know, the young man into the wild and being
guided by the chief. But if I bring it back home,
my rites of passage growing up would be baptism
would be, you know, confirmation. Another rites
of passage would be marriage and other rites
of passage would be, um, you know, death. So
everything has got. some purpose and there's
a process that people have to go through. But
I think it's just the terminologies that we tend
to use, but we all do it some way, somehow. Going
back to that place of stillness and just re -evaluating,
oh snap, this is where I'm at. This is where
I want to go, but I'm just stuck right now. What
is that stuckness? What does it mean to you?
I hope I'm making sense. No, you're making a
lot of sense. It's great. I think, you know,
when people think of things like Vision Quest,
it seems so complicated and impossible and that
kind of discourages people. Or maybe this is
a total self -report, you know, because I always
think, oh, it's too hard. I could never do that.
I mean, it is hard. Like, you said you did it,
you were completely alone for four days and nights.
Like, that's super brave. I don't know if I could
do that. I want to be able to do that. I mean,
I would love to have some introspection as put
together as I seem to be. And that's the thing,
Luigi. Like that's the thing though. I think
we tend to overcomplicate things. I think about
like that stillness. If you take an hour of your
day, just decide, go take a walk. that it would
be your rites of passage. That would be your
solo time. So the more you build and the more
you practice, eventually that one hour will become
one day and then four days. So it's also what
I was saying in the beginning of the rites of
passage, they prepare you for that experience.
So cutting down on food. you know spending time
in nature so starting your process already before
you go into the mountains um we totally like
you are totally stripped away from technology
and time and just you and your water and journals
understand so it's like baby steps like having
absolutely nothing to occupy your mind like i'm
at home after work and i think i'm being still
but You're right. Like I could be connected to
social media I can turn on the TV and I can't
even imagine not eating and just being in the
wilderness with You know a pen and a pad of paper.
I always tell myself I'm in a journal I never
do but like I can't like oh my god. That's just
blows my mind how how So much more difficult
it would be or at least how much more kind of
like Surreal eye -opening would be like right
now you're telling me this story and I'm hearing
you but I'm thinking but and but I think if I
did it it would be even more just overwhelming
To be fasting and in nature and have nothing
to occupy you like what kind of thoughts would
enter your mind, especially if You know you begin
a fast and you get hungry because like I can
I can admit if I don't eat It will affect my
thinking And I'm not saying like, I'm hangry.
No, it's just like the, you know, I do get negative
and I do recognize that I probably am this way
because I haven't eaten, but I'm not angry because
I'm not eating. But it's just like, that's my
chemical disposition. So like what would happen
to me if I were to do that? Think that if you
are actually fasting and there's nobody around
you and you just have your journal and just your
water. It doesn't matter how angry you get, I
think. Isn't that kind of the point? In a way?
Yeah, you're right. I guess, yeah, you would
come out on the other end after. I'm just so
curious what they do. I've tried fasting. The
longest I fasted was for three days. But I was
still surrounded by things that distracted me.
You know, like TV, for example. the city Whatever
and I was in Suzhou while I was staying with
friends. So yeah Anyway, isn't it doesn't it
get easier? after like the first day I'm told
after the the third day is when things really
start Like to shift and that's what I was aiming
for when I was going for three days But I personally
didn't see any or I didn't experience anything
that I thought wow This is great. So I mean I
may have done it wrong, but you know It's more
than I've ever done Maybe I'll try again. I mean
stuff really fascinates me and you and this the
idea to a kind of motif I keep hearing is like
You have to be open to you know the experience
and this happens in so many things vision quest
when people Take psychedelics, you know, you're
gonna have a bad trip if you're not open to the
experience. So You can't just rely on the thing.
So let's, for example, say, taking mushrooms.
You can't just rely on taking the mushrooms to
give you a great experience that you have to
first prepare. Sure, yeah. Anyway, yeah, fasting
stuff. I love it. This is definitely something
I would like to introduce in my life to be more,
you know, have more experience. Be a better person.
Yes, of course. Anyway. In the neck. In the next
podcast, your introduction, I want you to say
aspiring faster. Aspiring to fast. Aspiring vision
quester. Yeah, exactly. That was fantastic. Should
we wrap it up? Should we answer a couple more
questions? I have so many questions, but I also
have Nicole on WhatsApp now. Be prepared. Go
for it. Go for it. What was your perspective?
My perspective? My perspective. I still have
my perspective. Yeah, it was about being present.
It was about not being present. In the right
way. We can talk about it. Yeah. If you two are
still willing. I have time. Okay. Well, we won't
talk so long about it, but... Okay, here's the
thing about being present that I have a kind
of I had to I had an insight so picture this
picture the the cliche of You know a person going
I'm gonna go into nature and read my book and
I thought the same thing we had we had a holiday
in China a couple weeks ago And I thought to
myself I need to get at work. I'm gonna go To
the lake. I'm gonna bring my book and I'm gonna
read it And it's gonna be nice and it's all it's
gonna be I'm gonna be nice and present yeah,
yeah, yeah, I get there and You know, I'm seeing
how Peaceful and calming and beautiful nature
is and Okay, mind you I'm I'm at a place like
a restaurant on a lake And I I open my book and
I'm trying to read it but I cannot concentrate
and I'm thinking to myself what a book does for
a person. You know, it's an escape. It helps
them escape. And that's not a bad thing. Like,
I think it's good to read, like fiction, whatever.
But you have to be engaged in the book. So the
paradox for me was I wanted to go and be present
somewhere and have a cool experience, but I had
to do it while reading a book. And I thought,
well, this is a waste. I should be reading my
book at home, being immersed in the book. And
while I'm here in this place, I should be just
sitting and observing and taking it all in. Listening
to the voices, seeing the sunset, feeling the
air. And I was just thinking, I'm doing being
present in the wrong way. And I think a lot of
people are doing being present in the wrong way.
and they have this kind of romantic notion of
how it should be done or something else so romantic
like, oh, I'm reading a book under a tree. Like
they see these kinds of images maybe in pop culture
and they try to mimic them themselves. So I will
never ever, ever bring a book with me ever again
anywhere and I will sit and be, you know, present
in nature. Because like Nicole said, nature heals.
But I think a lot of people, yeah, I think we're
being present wrong when you have these kinds
of other things to distract you and help you
not, I don't know, help you, but prevent you
from sitting with yourself. being in the moment.
Because another thing I observed when I started
being present was I'm looking at all the people
out around me and I'm thinking, wow, all these
people are on their phones. All these people
are taking pictures of themselves in this beautiful
place, or they're getting food. I don't know
if the food was so bad. I suppose you could be
present, you know, with all the food you're eating.
But I just thought, I also thought why you don't
need all those things. I always think when I
go out, it'll be a waste if I'm not purchasing
something. as small as like a coffee. So now
I've been saying to myself, you should not feel
bad for just going out and existing and just
like being like, that's all you need. Why can't
you just be present there? Why do you need a
thing to like justify, make the experience worthwhile?
I think that might also be, you know, a symptom
of our kind of like materialist or like consumer
driven culture. But as soon as I made that decision,
I found a great deal more peace. And I didn't
feel so bad when I just go out. I don't feel
any kind of guilt or pressure. I can just go
out and be and not think, oh, I wasted my day
because I didn't do something, which meant I
didn't buy something when I was out. I could
just walk around. I don't know. I could walk
around a mall. I don't know. I could just do
anything. I understand old people now when they're
just wandering. I understand it. I think they're
more present than we are. You're right. You are
old. Older than me. Really. You're ancient. Oh
my gosh. Whatever. I fully agree with you and
it kind of leans into what my perspective was.
Quiet acts of resilience that help us to foster
the positive change within ourselves For me that
was You know, there's a there's a myriad of ways
and and at the risk of making everything somber
I'll bring it back, but my quiet active resilience
was keeping the steering wheel fucking on the
road and not going into the bridge and then now
it's just this thing of living unabashedly. When
I want to do something, I just do it. I don't
feel restrained by societal norms and expectations.
I also want to buy a coffee when I go out, but
more and more, I'm making the choice not to.
And one of my biggest weaknesses is when I go
out and I sit down at a fancy restaurant, I just
want to order the biggest freaking burger there
is. Like, my feeling is I'm at this restaurant
now, I'm here once. Like, let me just get the
biggest, fanciest meal that they have. Why not?
Yes, but I don't need it. I don't need it. It's
so many more calories. Yeah. Like, you're trying
to, like, feel. Yeah, I understand that. You
don't want any, you know, bubble teasers. It's
like you're a junkie. You just want to, like,
feel better. That's an addiction, I think. That's
a kind of an addiction. It's an addiction instead
of questioning. Why do you want this? Why do
you feel like you need it? You could just be
stressed out. You could be hungry granted but
I Go the other way when it comes to going to
the restaurants I would like to go to a restaurant
and just be like I just want a cup of coffee
Thanks, but I feel bad Say something like that.
Like they're gonna be like, why aren't you ordering
more? I did that Yeah, and I sat down I ordered
it Not even a coffee. I ordered a dry burst tea.
Okay. The waiter was just expecting me. Do you
guys tip in South Africa? Is tipping a thing?
Yeah. Wow, that's wild. I wouldn't have expected
tipping to exist in South Africa. I'm staunchly
against it. I don't like that. I don't like tipping.
Tipping is over. Hashtag over with tipping. Sorry,
Ray. I tipped him well. I don't mind tipping,
especially if I know that the restaurants aren't
paying what they should be paying. My first job
was in exclusive books as a bookstore. Okay.
In that respect, I understand. I support tipping.
Yeah. But in Canada, my war is against the restaurants,
not against the server. Yeah, I'll give the server
cash. I never probably won't write it down because
then it stays in the till, right? I don't know
how. True. I just want everybody to get a livable
wage and we can just do it. We've been talking
a lot. Nicole. I just want to add on to this
point, the art of presence and just coming back
to the experience on VisionQuest. I think for
what I want to say to us here, but also to the
listeners is when you go. On your solo time or
just tapping out for a little bit and just finding
that stillness is Realizing that you can't pour
from an empty cup So it's been giving and giving
and giving so much to everybody, but what are
you giving to yourself? What are you gifting
yourself? You know, what is that opportunity
that you're allowing yourself just to breathe
a little bit because Everybody wants something
up from you. Everyone wants a piece of you, but
now What more can you give to, you know, to people,
but there's nothing you can give. There's nothing
left that you're giving yourself. So it's you're
blessing yourself with that gift of time and
presence and just putting your phone on silent
for just a little bit. The world will continue
without you for that moment. And just realizing,
ah, okay, I cannot pull from an empty cup. What
do I need to do right now? Yeah, I just wanted
to share that little bit of... Yeah, I find that
we... Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I
feel like a lot of people do give more of themselves
to others than to their own selves. You know,
I always think... Maybe I'm gonna be... Maybe
this is me being real vulnerable, but I say to
myself, you know, Luigi, you have to... When
you go out you can't be bummed that you're going
it alone like you have forced have to go out
and like you have to it sounds so tacky, but
it's like you have to take yourself on a date
and You got to love yourself that listen Straight
hetero cisgender male whatever but like for me
I have to do that I'm not used to doing you know,
like giving to myself and that's something Think
I need to do So that was something also in my
mind in these past weeks when I was doing these
things like oh I don't want to go out and I was
thinking why Are you not good enough to take
yourself out on a date? Give that to yourself.
You're willing to to do it to other people and
take them out on date, but not yourself And that's
what you should do. Maybe that's better The whole
kind of cliche thing and love yourself, but that's
what the you know pouring from an empty cup thing,
reminded me of. Yeah. And this thing where like,
we weren't taught these things growing up, like
taking care of ourselves. You know, we were always
taught of like giving and showing up for other
people. So that blueprint is in our minds to
into our adulthood. But now we are reversing
that kind of narrative or teaching and saying,
okay. What does it mean to fall in love with
myself? What does it mean to gift myself? What
does it mean to take myself out on a date? Because
then that's just a thing, and you go back to
that thing of change and growth. It can be bad,
it can be good, you know? But it's just that
thing of this, that we weren't taught these things
growing up. If we were, we just didn't take note
of it. We weren't serious about it, but now it
plays out in our adulthood. And like, oh, what
is, what does it mean to take care of myself?
You know, like for me, I struggle to this day.
I struggle to, um, spoil myself, like buy myself
flowers to this day, because I can use that money
and feed someone. I can use that money to give
to my family, but that is not where I should
operate from. And then we'll go back to the thing
of I'm still pouring from an empty cup. The stuff
that I've learned in the past, was it a waste?
I'm not practicing what I've learned, you know?
So it's a daily battle, I think, because we're
not perfect human beings and we have to go through
these growing pains to understand, okay, hold
on, let me just make a decision here. And what
decision that I'm going to make, I have to live
with it. So yeah, Luigi, it's the thing of just
What we've been taught when we were younger is
it's still relevant today in your life, like
in our lives or in our journey, whatever, how
you want to put it, but is it still relevant?
And what works for you might not work for me
and vice versa. And that's, that's, that's the
thing of being okay. With that with the decision,
you know what the decision you've made or we
all make Will be okay with living with that consequences
Yeah, it's an ongoing journey that there's not
a fix it's not fixed It's messy but it's also
at the end it's For me, it's the lessons. It's
the lessons that I get out of it because I know
okay I don't want to do that again if I do onto
a different key. Yeah. What a beautiful thing.
And from my perspective, from what I've seen
in this episode, it looks like you are taking
care of yourself wonderfully. I think, and you
too, Luigi. I think being aware of the possibility
of change and Taking care of oneself is the first
step, right? Because without awareness, you're
in Plato's cave and unable to get out. So, yeah.
Let's wrap it up there. Ladies and gentlemen,
thank you so much for listening to this episode
of Kaleidoscope. If you would like to find out
more about the Pride Sheltered Trust, Please
follow them on Facebook at Pride Shelter Trust
or Instagram at Pride Shelter Trust. You can
also find them on their website www .pridesheltertrust
.org .za or you can directly email Nicole at
director at pride shelter trust .org .za. You
can find Kaleidoscope at echoember .co .uk, firefromheat
on Instagram, or heatfromfire on TikTok. You
can also follow me on YouTube and watch this
full episode live at YouTube at r -a -e -l -i
-u. This has been Kaleidoscope with Stride Shadow
Trust.