WEBVTT 00:00:00.110 --> 00:00:04.469 Hi everyone, it's Ray here. Before we jump into 00:00:04.469 --> 00:00:13.650 today's episode, a quick note. You'll notice 00:00:13.650 --> 00:00:16.609 that Maya and Luigi's audio is a little choppy 00:00:16.609 --> 00:00:18.949 in places. Something went wrong with the audio 00:00:18.949 --> 00:00:22.769 during recording and I'm not sure what, but I've 00:00:22.769 --> 00:00:26.140 tried my best to clean it up. And luckily, our 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:28.859 guest's audio came through perfectly. So you 00:00:28.859 --> 00:00:32.039 won't miss a thing. And I'm really glad for that. 00:00:32.259 --> 00:00:36.020 Because the conversation today is special. We 00:00:36.020 --> 00:00:39.579 were joined by Sinaloa Jonas, host of Pride the 00:00:39.579 --> 00:00:43.200 Queer Show, a program you can catch on Cape Town 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:48.000 TV, or you can stream it online at freevisionplay 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:53.060 .co .za. Sinaloa's work is all about amplifying 00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:57.939 queer voices and stories. And it was such a privilege 00:00:57.939 --> 00:01:03.500 to bring our worlds together from Cape Town all 00:01:03.500 --> 00:01:07.680 the way to China and tangentially to Canada too. 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.760 Just for this episode. I had a lot of fun recording 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.120 it. I had some really great conversations with 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.819 him. I'm going to invite him back onto the show. 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:22.739 It's quite possible that I will be in season 00:01:22.739 --> 00:01:26.700 two of Pride the Queer Show. Anyway, with that, 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:32.180 enjoy the show. Tough questions. Honest answers. 00:01:33.099 --> 00:01:40.599 Oh, the messy truth. Your perspectives. Let's 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:48.109 begin. Welcome to Kaleidoscope. I know the time 00:01:48.109 --> 00:01:51.769 zones are quite, like, different. And, yeah, 00:01:51.890 --> 00:01:54.689 I'm so happy that she could accommodate me in 00:01:54.689 --> 00:01:57.370 your time zone. So thank you so much. It's absolutely 00:01:57.370 --> 00:02:00.090 an honor and, of course, a pleasure for me to 00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:02.609 finally do this with you guys. Okay, great. So 00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:06.930 my name is Ruby Ray. What's her name? This is 00:02:06.930 --> 00:02:13.270 my co -host and ex -coworker. I'm doing it myself. 00:02:19.260 --> 00:02:24.580 About eight months ago, I started medical transition. 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:30.919 And in that time, when I switched over to the 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:34.500 estrogen hormone, it was like my mind just went 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:40.340 through a complete revolution. And for the first 00:02:40.340 --> 00:02:43.919 time in my life, I could focus on what I really 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:48.129 wanted to do. I had known what podcasts are. 00:02:48.530 --> 00:02:51.870 I wanted to start a podcast. I never knew what 00:02:51.870 --> 00:02:57.349 I wanted to start about. And this just gave me 00:02:57.349 --> 00:02:59.389 such a new perspective. So I was like, I want 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:03.090 to talk to people from around the world. Yeah. 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:14.370 That is great. So you started this podcast eight 00:03:14.370 --> 00:03:19.639 months ago. Yeah. Okay. That is so great. Such 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:22.520 a new baby. I started my show a few months ago. 00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:26.800 So your podcast is a bit older than my show, 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:31.319 but my show has been on the wax for like three 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.020 years before we started going into production. 00:03:33.219 --> 00:03:36.900 So we had to like do a whole lot of planning 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:41.400 back and forth proposals. But that was like, 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.620 that was like in 2022. And then we only started 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:49.340 shooting now in 2025. so yeah oh my gosh that's 00:03:49.340 --> 00:03:55.360 crazy um okay so what we do on kaleidoscope is 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.060 each of us takes a turn we share a perspective 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:03.419 that has helped us change right after introductions 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:08.280 and that perspective can be for example my first 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.500 perspective ever away i've always wanted to do 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:15.060 something creative with my life And now for the 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:16.980 first song, I feel brave enough to take that 00:04:16.980 --> 00:04:21.180 step. And it might fail, but I don't care. That 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:25.040 was my perspective. And then I allowed Luigi 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.519 and Patrick to kind of delve into that with me 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.939 for a while, for about half an hour. And then 00:04:30.939 --> 00:04:34.160 we went to the next perspective. Yeah. Should 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:41.100 I be next? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One more thing, 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.290 one more thing. As we begin, we like to introduce 00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:48.610 ourselves with something silly, like an anecdote. 00:04:52.230 --> 00:05:00.209 For example, my name is Ruby Ray Rieu, and slaps 00:05:00.209 --> 00:05:03.149 fear me in the life. So if you want to partake 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:06.889 in that, I'll start in a few minutes, in a few 00:05:06.889 --> 00:05:11.810 seconds. Feel free, or you can just... introduce 00:05:11.810 --> 00:05:15.930 yourself. Normally, you can introduce your socials. 00:05:15.930 --> 00:05:19.329 I will also add them into the description of 00:05:19.329 --> 00:05:22.250 the show. Does that sound good? That sounds great. 00:05:23.490 --> 00:05:28.449 Okay, great. Give me one second to think. About 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:31.870 what? My introduction. What are you having already? 00:05:33.350 --> 00:05:37.149 No, I don't have anything. I think you're used 00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:41.769 to this already. Come on. Welcome to Kaleidoscope, 00:05:41.910 --> 00:05:45.529 a show where we explore the art of growth and 00:05:45.529 --> 00:05:49.069 the perspective of everyday people. My name is 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:53.430 Ruby Rayview, and some people know me as the 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:59.129 woman who howls in the night. A she -wolf? A 00:05:59.129 --> 00:06:02.470 friend. A she -wolf. A werewolf, maybe? That 00:06:02.470 --> 00:06:07.470 makes more sense. I'm the werewolf when I walk 00:06:07.470 --> 00:06:12.149 my dog. I am joined today, as always, by my co 00:06:12.149 --> 00:06:18.129 -host, Luigi. And I am honored to have the host 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:25.930 of Fry the Queer Show of Cape Town TV helping 00:06:25.930 --> 00:06:31.810 out here, Jonas Sinaloa. Yay! I'm going to clap. 00:06:35.859 --> 00:06:38.600 There we go. That wasn't too hard. Should I go 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:44.860 next? My turn yet. I'm Carlos Luigi, and I just 00:06:44.860 --> 00:06:47.959 want you to stop asking me if I'm listening. 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:50.699 Because I'm always listening to music. I don't 00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:52.879 know why you need to stop and ask me and stop 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.560 my good vibes. I'm kind of missing Tennessee. 00:06:57.060 --> 00:06:59.060 Your own is here before we're an actual team. 00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:07.029 You know. It's great. Whenever it's me. The last 00:07:07.029 --> 00:07:12.810 but most important thing for me today. Yes. Well, 00:07:12.910 --> 00:07:15.410 my name is Tunalo Jonas, all the way from Cape 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:19.550 Town in South Africa. Most people call me Flicky, 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:23.889 as in on fleek, always on fleek. They call me 00:07:23.889 --> 00:07:25.769 the guy who's always on fleek. I don't know why. 00:07:26.189 --> 00:07:28.389 That was a name that was given to me years ago 00:07:28.389 --> 00:07:30.949 when I was starting up my television career. 00:07:32.750 --> 00:07:35.230 It's been years now. I don't think I'm on Flick 00:07:35.230 --> 00:07:39.009 anymore. I'm a bit older now. I'm not that guy 00:07:39.009 --> 00:07:42.430 who's older than Flick anymore. But yeah, I am 00:07:42.430 --> 00:07:47.170 a television host. I am a radio presenter. And 00:07:47.170 --> 00:07:50.689 of course, I am an emcee. And I must say, thank 00:07:50.689 --> 00:07:53.629 you guys. Your energy is absolutely amazing. 00:07:53.910 --> 00:07:56.889 I feel like I'm in the same room as you are, 00:07:56.889 --> 00:07:59.870 guys. Well, you're in spirit. Actually, I could 00:07:59.870 --> 00:08:07.279 just go right here. I hope you guys don't mind 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:12.040 me having a cup of tea. No, no, no. I'm much 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.259 cruder than you. Okay, of course. Thanks. That's 00:08:16.259 --> 00:08:21.319 good then. Sonala. Yeah. Welcome to The Mitoscope. 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:24.720 And do you have a perspective that you would 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.579 like to dive in or share with us about how... 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:32.720 your show developed, why it developed, and where 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.740 it came from? I'm super interested, or if not 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:39.899 that, anything else. I think for me, the perspective 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:43.399 that I want to actually share with you today, 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:49.460 and of course probably dive in the most, is the 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:54.279 representation of who we are as queer individuals, 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:59.059 as queer identities in mainstream media. such 00:08:59.059 --> 00:09:03.639 as tv shows tv dramas tv series and reality tv 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.679 shows um the way we are represented in mainstream 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.259 media and of course pop culture i think that 00:09:10.259 --> 00:09:13.139 is a dialogue that i've always wanted to have 00:09:13.139 --> 00:09:16.440 and that is a dialogue that i've always wanted 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.720 to be part of that is a dialogue that i feel 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:25.519 like is very important in 2025 how we are portrayed 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:29.500 in media especially television and of course 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:34.740 pop culture i think um also is there enough representation 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:38.519 of who we are on television if there is enough 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:41.539 representation of who we are on television is 00:09:41.539 --> 00:09:47.120 it is it fine is it is how we portrayed you know 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:50.580 the way we are in real life or is it just for 00:09:50.580 --> 00:09:55.120 entertainment you know and i feel like as a queer 00:09:56.179 --> 00:10:00.279 African men living in Africa today, I feel like 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:04.559 our stories needs to be told. And as much as 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.419 I can see that there is a representation of who 00:10:07.419 --> 00:10:10.500 we are on television, in media, and of course 00:10:10.500 --> 00:10:12.860 in pop culture, but I just feel like it's just 00:10:12.860 --> 00:10:15.700 for entertainment. It's not to touch on the real 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:18.879 issues that we face as queer individuals. I just 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:20.759 feel like it's just for entertainment. It's just 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:22.960 to make people laugh, just to make people entertained, 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.139 but it does not touch on the real. issues that 00:10:27.139 --> 00:10:32.519 as queer individuals we face I'll say in Africa 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.100 and of course in a global scale internationally 00:10:35.100 --> 00:10:38.820 so I feel like that is probably a perspective 00:10:38.820 --> 00:10:42.259 or a dialogue that maybe we can touch on a bit 00:10:42.259 --> 00:10:45.340 but you guys are the owners of the podcast let 00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:54.440 me not come here and intrude I mean, what you 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:57.639 just touched on is very, very close to my heart. 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:06.220 And it's something that I've become much more 00:11:06.220 --> 00:11:10.360 in touch to in the past year than I have ever 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:15.779 been in my life. And for me, it's so incredibly 00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:22.850 visceral because I come from a place of... insane 00:11:22.850 --> 00:11:30.509 social privilege. But even now, looking back, 00:11:30.570 --> 00:11:33.649 my perspectives on that are still changing on 00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:39.230 a daily basis. I'm realizing how much has changed. 00:11:39.629 --> 00:11:43.169 And in the time that I transitioned was just 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:47.070 before Donald Trump got elected. And the online 00:11:47.070 --> 00:11:53.860 sphere went from... completely fine to me waking 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:57.440 up and drinking coffee with an inbox full of 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:04.080 literal hate wow and that brought home everything 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:08.980 in such a big way because i started cross -dressing 00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:16.759 uh in 2019 really that was the start of me this 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:21.200 is i i I normally don't like talking about this 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.580 in a place where I haven't been able to find 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:26.679 people because it sounds like it's a pipeline. 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.279 It sounds like you become trans. But really what 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.279 it is, it's you're standing on the precipice 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.940 of your own identity that you've locked away 00:12:35.940 --> 00:12:44.840 and you start walking towards it. Like some kind 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:50.080 of Lord of the Rings. to your own identity. Yeah. 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:54.840 Where was I going with this? Right. So during 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:58.039 these four years of being frustrated and becoming 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.580 older and more involved and in touch and connected 00:13:01.580 --> 00:13:04.539 with my own community, I started experiencing 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:08.059 little bits of what you're talking about. And 00:13:08.059 --> 00:13:11.000 one of the things that really touched me was 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.019 the Danish film. The movie, I don't know if you've 00:13:15.019 --> 00:13:18.360 watched it. No, I haven't watched it. Okay. The 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:23.360 Danish girl is a story, based on a true story, 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:30.100 of the first transgender woman in the early 90s, 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:38.740 1900s, who actually received surgery. And one 00:13:38.740 --> 00:13:42.100 of the things that hurt me so much in this, because 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:46.879 I'm married to a woman, so... And in the Danish 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.980 film, what happened was a married man came in 00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:56.720 touch with his own density during or early in 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.299 their marriage. They were both artists. And in 00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:06.460 the movie, that happens in a few weeks from being 00:14:06.460 --> 00:14:12.580 in a monogamous marriage to stealing another 00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:17.740 man. And that didn't happen. They moved to Paris 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:20.860 together and they lived as a queer couple for 00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:24.860 more than 20 years. And that is completely erased 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:30.200 in the movie for the sake of focusing on, wow, 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:35.639 this transgender journey is worse in a way that 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:41.899 could seem relatable for cisgender people, but 00:14:41.899 --> 00:14:45.129 it completely misrepresents. what actually happened 00:14:45.129 --> 00:14:48.110 and it arises such beautiful let's be in the 00:14:48.110 --> 00:14:52.129 relationship at the same time and that hurt yeah 00:14:52.129 --> 00:14:56.730 that sounds that sounds very interesting actually 00:14:56.730 --> 00:15:00.210 you know now that you're telling me i've to be 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:01.769 honest i've never watched i've never spent it 00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:05.549 before i think you need to to dm me the details 00:15:05.549 --> 00:15:10.730 so that i can literally um watch it and be enlightened 00:15:10.730 --> 00:15:15.309 more about that particular story which is quite 00:15:15.309 --> 00:15:19.450 very interesting and it's so weird that you've 00:15:19.450 --> 00:15:22.769 mentioned that the first transgender woman was 00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:26.330 in the early 1900s but we are only now hearing 00:15:26.330 --> 00:15:29.629 about these stories like starting a few years 00:15:29.629 --> 00:15:36.509 ago and you know where was where was this story 00:15:36.509 --> 00:15:39.309 hidden for a very long time were they were they 00:15:39.309 --> 00:15:42.690 packed somewhere in a shelf in a shop that maybe 00:15:42.690 --> 00:15:47.590 in 2025 will share the stories. I honestly don't 00:15:47.590 --> 00:15:54.509 know. Yeah. And this is another... If I may interrupt. 00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:57.769 Just on your point of why are we only hearing 00:15:57.769 --> 00:16:00.450 about these stories now? Did you know that the 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:05.929 oldest goddess on record for humankind is the 00:16:05.929 --> 00:16:10.000 ancient Mesopotamian goddess Inanna? the goddess 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.200 of love and war. And she, her story is a transgender 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.039 one. And her acolytes were non -binary. Yeah. 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.279 That is more than 3 ,000 years ago. Where did 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.340 you hear this? What did you learn next? Doing 00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:29.220 research. That's interesting. There are a lot 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:39.169 of... Yeah. But I tend to go off on tangents. 00:16:39.730 --> 00:16:43.450 Should we let our guest continue? Yeah. You wanted 00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:46.169 to say something. You wanted to say something, 00:16:46.210 --> 00:16:48.250 yeah. No, you wanted to say something. We're 00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:51.509 waiting for you. No, I wanted to say, because 00:16:51.509 --> 00:16:53.870 I've posed the question, why are we only hearing 00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:56.090 about these stories now? And you're talking about 00:16:56.090 --> 00:17:01.590 this goddess. And literally, I used to do a lot 00:17:01.590 --> 00:17:07.000 of mythology. in university, my first few years 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.660 of varsity. And these are the kind of stories 00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:12.380 that we've never, you know, really touched on. 00:17:12.500 --> 00:17:15.240 We've touched on them, but it was like, you know, 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.339 in passing, you know, it was not like the main 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:21.240 focus or we were never going to be given an assignment 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.900 based on that or there was no question about 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:28.180 that in the essays or in the assignments or in 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:31.829 the exams. So hence I'm saying... These stories, 00:17:31.849 --> 00:17:34.730 it seems like they've always been there, but 00:17:34.730 --> 00:17:37.170 we have never been told about these stories. 00:17:37.390 --> 00:17:40.789 We have never seen them on TV. I have honestly 00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:44.410 never read about these stories, whether it's 00:17:44.410 --> 00:17:47.450 a book at the nearby library, whether it's a 00:17:47.450 --> 00:17:50.369 book at the University of Cape Town. These are 00:17:50.369 --> 00:17:54.130 the stories that don't get told often. And Ray, 00:17:54.349 --> 00:17:56.589 I'm not going to lie, that is the reason why 00:17:56.589 --> 00:18:00.859 I got into television. Because I wanted to tell 00:18:00.859 --> 00:18:03.700 the stories of the untold. I wanted to tell the 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:06.720 stories of the minority group. I wanted to tell 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.859 the stories, our stories, in a way that, you 00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:13.359 know, from the word of mouth, from literally, 00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:17.279 from the horse's mouth itself, you know. Instead 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:21.279 of having a producer in LA or a producer in Cape 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.259 Town who knows nothing about queer stories, but 00:18:24.259 --> 00:18:26.599 just want to create entertainment, you know. 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.039 for you to enlighten me about these stories now 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.319 which is i'm going to go and do my research as 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.579 well i've learned something from you that you're 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:39.339 such a research expert by the way um which is 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:41.819 i think as much as we say these stories are not 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:45.920 being told but it is also our duty as queer individuals 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.740 to do our own research and to tell the stories 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:54.599 to inform to educate it is our own duty as much 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:56.819 as we are saying we want the world to be with 00:18:56.819 --> 00:19:01.460 us but we need to be with the world we need to 00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:03.579 inform the world we need to educate the world 00:19:03.579 --> 00:19:07.680 so that you can do it in a small circle you know 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.420 of friends and that is going to spread and infiltrate 00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:14.079 throughout your community because you've shared 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:15.420 with the people that are close to you and they're 00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:17.440 going to share with the people that's close to 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.839 them so thank you for enlightening me about these 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.500 two examples that you've shared right now so 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.400 So now you were saying that the representation 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.940 of queerness on television, where you're from, 00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:36.180 is, let's take the lack of a better word, the 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:40.440 problem. It's not an accurate representation. 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:48.859 So can you gloss over it and maybe just explain 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:52.359 a little bit of what that looks like? I wouldn't 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:58.970 say it's not accurate, right? I'm not saying 00:19:58.970 --> 00:20:03.549 what I see on television is not accurate, but 00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:06.849 what I'm seeing on television as for entertainment, 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:10.869 it does not touch on the real life experiences 00:20:10.869 --> 00:20:16.150 of queer individuals. For example, there is an 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:18.430 incredible show in South Africa that is called 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:21.950 Becoming, right? Which shares the stories of 00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:25.230 transgender people, whether you're a male or 00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:28.240 a female. It's a reality TV show that brings 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.700 together these incredible social media stars, 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.000 these incredible public figures who are in the 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.859 journey of transitioning, right? And what I see 00:20:39.859 --> 00:20:44.240 on the show is not their stories being told in 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.140 terms of when they started to transition. How 00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:49.380 did their family treat them? How was the reception 00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:53.460 from community, friends and family? What does 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:56.450 transition mean to them? Have they transitioned 00:20:56.450 --> 00:21:00.509 physically or have they just transitioned in 00:21:00.509 --> 00:21:02.950 their head and then they started dressing as 00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:06.230 a man or as a woman? How is their transition 00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:08.589 so far? Take us through the journey of transitioning. 00:21:08.869 --> 00:21:12.470 What I see on the show is just beautiful trans 00:21:12.470 --> 00:21:16.869 people who are just hating on each other, who 00:21:16.869 --> 00:21:20.029 are just being dramatic, who are dressed very 00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:22.970 fancy, going to fancy events. You know, it's 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:25.650 all about partying, looking gorgeous. but in 00:21:25.650 --> 00:21:28.670 my head and i'm like but that's not all that 00:21:28.670 --> 00:21:32.369 we bring to the table as queer individuals we 00:21:32.369 --> 00:21:35.990 are not just bringing um fabulous life we're 00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:38.730 not just bringing flamboyant life we're not just 00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:42.109 bringing you know partying being rich being famous 00:21:42.109 --> 00:21:45.789 but there's so much more to us there is a journey 00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:49.069 of a person who's transitioning here from being 00:21:49.069 --> 00:21:52.349 a male to being a female what happens to that 00:21:52.349 --> 00:21:55.319 journey have they transitioned fully Have they 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:58.259 gone for surgery? Have they transitioned physically? 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:01.559 Have they gone to the home affairs? Have they 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.759 changed their identity through government channels? 00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:09.200 Are they now recognized in South Africa as a 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.039 woman? Or does the ID still say male? When they 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.339 fly out of the country, what happens? When they 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:17.700 fly to another city, what happens at the airport? 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:20.339 Those are the things that I feel like reality 00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:24.869 TV shows such as that could be. showing out there 00:22:24.869 --> 00:22:27.509 to the rest of the country that as much as we've 00:22:27.509 --> 00:22:29.930 got trans men and trans women this is their life 00:22:29.930 --> 00:22:33.269 lifestyle but these are the challenges that they 00:22:33.269 --> 00:22:36.289 face daily in south africa and of course in the 00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:40.630 continent so i don't think they are showing enough 00:22:40.630 --> 00:22:44.150 of that those shows are meant to educators those 00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:48.069 shows are meant to inform us you know um as much 00:22:48.069 --> 00:22:50.450 as they meant to entertain us as well but at 00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:52.880 the same time they need to give us information 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:55.339 they need that to give us education there is 00:22:55.339 --> 00:22:57.859 a child who watches that show who is probably 00:22:57.859 --> 00:23:00.700 18 years old and is thinking of transitioning 00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.480 but they're watching that show and they're not 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.019 learning anything about the journey that they 00:23:06.019 --> 00:23:09.019 want to embark on you know all they see is parties 00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:12.380 drama people fighting god knows what they're 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:16.539 fighting about but i feel like there's so much 00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.480 that you know mainstream media can touch on in 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:23.900 terms of shows like that can educate a person 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:26.640 like me who's a gay man about the journeys of 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.059 becoming a trans man or a trans woman you know 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:33.059 um it's not an easy journey but i feel like they 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:36.440 just need to educate us what i'm seeing now on 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.960 on reality tv shows it's a matter of having this 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.599 gay character and all he brings into the table 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:46.759 is drama and and you know rich and famous you 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.480 know so i'm not saying There are no rich gay 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.339 men out there. There are lots of rich gay men. 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.759 But let's also touch on the issues that gay men 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:01.359 or the whole entire queer community faces in 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.740 their daily lives. If we are to bring queer stories 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:08.240 on television or let's say it's just media as 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:12.099 in general. Yeah. So it sounds like, again, probably 00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:15.480 to agree with what you're saying, that the media 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.099 isn't really informing people. It's just a caricature 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:23.460 of what, let's say, heteronormativity expects 00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:26.900 of, you know, queer people, whether they're trans, 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:34.420 whether they're gay. Instead of, you know, seeing 00:24:34.420 --> 00:24:38.480 the real struggles and problems. And, I mean, 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.859 obviously there are a myriad of reasons why television 00:24:41.859 --> 00:24:43.839 doesn't touch on that. People might not want 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:45.220 to watch it. It might be too painful. I mean, 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.720 you're both from South Africa. In my mind, this 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:53.160 is from what I know from what Ruby talks about 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:59.079 in her personal life. I honestly don't. And I'm 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.400 here in a place that has a lot of people from 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.700 South Africa personally. And honestly speaking, 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.680 I haven't met very many tolerant South Africans 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.000 when it's come to LGBTQ plus, whatever. So in 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:17.859 my mind, South Africa is a very... Not sorry? 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:25.059 Am I wrong? You're not wrong. Okay, you continue. 00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:27.339 I'll speak after you. I want to hear your perspective 00:25:27.339 --> 00:25:31.640 on that. Okay. My perspective is, just to wrap 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:34.440 back up a little bit, I completely agree with 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.319 you. A lot of TV shows, segments, extremely complex, 00:25:37.700 --> 00:25:42.319 extremely painful, extremely deep art piece. 00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:46.490 life of someone discovering their true identity 00:25:46.490 --> 00:25:50.769 and it flattens it out to drama. And that's terrible. 00:25:51.269 --> 00:25:55.450 And they do it because they think people don't 00:25:55.450 --> 00:25:58.210 want to see it. They think people don't want 00:25:58.210 --> 00:26:00.710 to know. And that's exactly what happened with 00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:04.750 the video game industry, for example. Big corporations 00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:07.869 do things for money because they think this is 00:26:07.869 --> 00:26:10.930 what's going to sell and they just flatten and 00:26:10.930 --> 00:26:14.400 erase everything of value. out of that and they're 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:18.039 the people that that you saw africa tell me a 00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.900 situation you know i feel uncomfortable and then 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:25.839 come from a place you know burning away from 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:31.480 their own life in a way yeah i think going back 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:36.200 to to what you say i think south africa is i 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:39.460 don't allow we've got one of the best laws when 00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:43.180 it comes to the protection of human rights The 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:45.799 law literally protects each and everyone who 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:51.259 lives in South Africa. The skin color, gender, 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:54.940 sexuality, it literally does protect each and 00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:57.700 everyone. The law is absolutely beautiful. And 00:26:57.700 --> 00:27:01.839 I think if I look back in 2025 and the work that 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.160 I've done with the TV show, I think as much we 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:09.440 have progressed as a country in terms of acceptance, 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:14.359 in terms of... allowing people to be who they 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.420 are and live in their own truth and in their 00:27:17.420 --> 00:27:21.599 own identity. I think South Africans have come 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.759 a very long way, but I feel like we still have 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.960 a long way to go, right? As much as the country 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.220 we have progressed, and it's amazing to see, 00:27:30.339 --> 00:27:34.000 as much as the Constitution protects everyone, 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.819 whether you are queer or not, it's amazing to 00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:40.000 see. But I still feel like on the ground, in 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.160 real life experiences, in the street, at home, 00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:45.940 in the communities, we still have a long way 00:27:45.940 --> 00:27:49.819 to go. And I do agree with you, Ray. The reason 00:27:49.819 --> 00:27:55.039 maybe that our stories are not being told in 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.799 a manner that we would like them to be told is 00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:02.319 because maybe TV productions or TV producers 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.759 believe that people don't want to see. a lot 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:12.460 of queerness on television, right? People have 00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:14.559 certain things that they want to see about being 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:16.339 queer on television. There are certain things 00:28:16.339 --> 00:28:19.240 that they don't want to see. They don't want 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.640 to see two men kissing each other. They don't 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:23.619 want to see a journey of a transitioning man 00:28:23.619 --> 00:28:26.359 from being a man to being a woman. You know, 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.500 they don't want to see, they're thinking that 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:31.819 people don't want to see that. But from my personal 00:28:31.819 --> 00:28:35.559 experience, since I've started this show, People 00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.200 really want to learn. You know, people really 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.880 want to engage in conversation because trust 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:45.900 me, people are raising queer kids. People have 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.980 queer fathers. People have queer mothers. People 00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:51.319 have queer brothers. People have queer parents. 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:55.039 So people really want to learn and be informed 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.519 and be informed about the queer community. But 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:05.549 maybe we don't know what huge... want when they're 00:29:05.549 --> 00:29:07.690 sitting in bedrooms and they decide which content 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:10.049 should go on television and which content should 00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:13.269 not go on television. I don't know how they decide, 00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:16.150 you know, but I think from what I've learned 00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:19.269 in the past few months of 2025, people do want 00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:22.930 to learn, you know, but there's not enough dialogues 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:25.930 and spacing where people can go and learn. And 00:29:25.930 --> 00:29:29.390 I believe that television, which is one source 00:29:29.390 --> 00:29:33.250 of media that literally has so much influence. 00:29:34.700 --> 00:29:38.460 We can use that to educate people because you 00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:41.119 can literally watch an American show while you're 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.079 in South Africa. You can watch a South African 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:46.539 show while you're in America nowadays. So I feel 00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:48.960 like mainstream media is the perfect way to go, 00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:52.059 but maybe they know what people want. Maybe they 00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:54.299 do surveys and people don't want to watch us 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:58.000 on television. Who knows? I'm more cynical than 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.200 that. Okay, well, what's your take? I think... 00:30:03.630 --> 00:30:06.150 I agree with you. The platform availability is 00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:09.410 incredible. Yeah. I think that just people that 00:30:09.410 --> 00:30:11.630 have, because exactly what you're saying is true. 00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:17.150 Television is the perfect way to influence people. 00:30:18.089 --> 00:30:22.490 Yeah. And as such, it is very easy to politicize. 00:30:22.529 --> 00:30:26.910 And because of that, investment comes from people 00:30:26.910 --> 00:30:29.769 who have money. that want to push their agenda, 00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:32.650 and they are the ones who are going to see what 00:30:32.650 --> 00:30:34.950 goes. We need to be rich, guys, so that we can 00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:38.930 have our own channels, TV stations, radio stations. 00:30:39.470 --> 00:30:44.289 Let's do it. I think you're... Yeah. I think 00:30:44.289 --> 00:30:49.910 you're right to a degree. Now, I would go the 00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:53.089 other way and say I don't think television is 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:56.509 as influential anymore. It's kind of the internet. 00:30:57.369 --> 00:30:59.349 You know, you have other avenues of watching 00:30:59.349 --> 00:31:02.670 TV or watching entertainment. So, you know, I 00:31:02.670 --> 00:31:05.009 would say that, honestly, social media, you know, 00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:10.450 YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, whatever. The way, 00:31:10.509 --> 00:31:14.349 I think, way more accessible and maybe the, you 00:31:14.349 --> 00:31:17.410 know, remember this nebulous group of people 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:21.789 that don't have so much influence on those things. 00:31:21.930 --> 00:31:26.779 I feel like they're... a better avenue for queer 00:31:26.779 --> 00:31:30.039 representation. But while I say that, I also 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.240 know that there are people who spread disinformation 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:38.640 and, like, pretend to be, you know, allies, but 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:42.220 they're really not. So I guess it really takes 00:31:42.220 --> 00:31:46.859 a lot of media literacy. So the question is, 00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:52.259 how do we really get people to understand what 00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:57.539 isn't? you know an agenda what is genuine when 00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:00.599 it comes to you know uh let's say understanding 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:06.980 uh something like queerness i feel like maybe 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:10.059 in the past maybe like at least 10 years ago 00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:13.000 maybe television at least american television 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:19.240 did a really good job of representing uh queer 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.140 struggles like there were a lot of shows that 00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:25.339 i thought were really really They really moved 00:32:25.339 --> 00:32:29.660 me and really gave me perspective. Like, I thought 00:32:29.660 --> 00:32:33.819 I knew quite a bit, but, you know, I'm always 00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:37.180 too used to this. What I could think of is a 00:32:37.180 --> 00:32:40.579 show called Pose, and that's on, and I don't 00:32:40.579 --> 00:32:44.539 know if you've watched it. What I really enjoyed, 00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:46.920 and that's... Why shouldn't you have watched 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:53.619 it? Yeah. It's absolutely one of my favorite 00:32:53.619 --> 00:32:56.799 American TV shows. I love it. Yeah, it really 00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:00.920 encompasses a lot of the struggles of gays and 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:03.980 transgender people, especially during the 80s. 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:07.000 But a time when, like, I think a lot of people 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:12.400 weren't even aware. I really do feel like America 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:15.119 has a good job of presenting those struggles. 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:18.400 Yes, it does. Used to, yeah, I don't see it so 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:22.349 much. I guess the latest would be, the closest 00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:25.529 thing would be, like, Euphoria, which had, like, 00:33:25.569 --> 00:33:27.569 pure teenagers. And Wonderland's a treat, so 00:33:27.569 --> 00:33:31.690 I don't know. I'm not really, as a person, the 00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:34.029 show Euphoria, it's kind of felt, and it's doing 00:33:34.029 --> 00:33:39.190 good, I guess. But yeah, and I guess South Africa 00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:41.730 doesn't have that kind of entertainment as of 00:33:41.730 --> 00:33:44.930 yet. Am I wrong? It sounds like it's just reality 00:33:44.930 --> 00:33:48.940 TV shows, and they're not very helpful. I think 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:51.579 you've touched on something. I think America, 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.220 you know, the US has done amazingly when it comes 00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:58.579 to the stories of the individuals. Now you talk 00:33:58.579 --> 00:34:02.140 about Pose, which has, you know, absolutely one 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:09.179 of the best, best LGBTQI plus TV shows that I've 00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.880 ever watched. You know, I think for me, it's 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:14.780 the first of its kind. It was the first time 00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:18.789 for me watching a TV series. that literally touches 00:34:18.789 --> 00:34:22.489 on almost each and every aspect of being queer. 00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:24.889 I mean, like South Africa, we are still a new 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:28.050 democracy. As I've said, we've come a long way, 00:34:28.150 --> 00:34:31.429 but we still have a long way to go. Our country 00:34:31.429 --> 00:34:33.849 is like 31 years old this year in terms of democracy. 00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:37.309 In terms of the new constitution, we are literally 00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:40.909 31 years into this democracy thing. So I think 00:34:40.909 --> 00:34:43.610 we still have a long way to go, but I must say 00:34:43.610 --> 00:34:47.539 we've come a very long way. i must say most of 00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:50.059 the shows that i've watched um that literally 00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:53.559 portrays queer identities have always been from 00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.679 the us or from the not from from from europe 00:34:56.679 --> 00:35:00.059 so i think you guys have done incredibly well 00:35:00.059 --> 00:35:06.659 um in terms of content that is inclusive and 00:35:06.659 --> 00:35:11.519 is diverse and um tells the stories of queer 00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:14.400 individuals i think now that you've made those 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.159 few examples i think I'm also having flashbacks 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:21.019 and I'm thinking about other examples that I've 00:35:21.019 --> 00:35:24.000 watched from American TV shows. I think you guys 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.420 have done so great. But in South Africa, we're 00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:31.360 still very young. But I must say, I must commend 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.199 that South Africans have come a long way in terms 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.380 of accepting, in terms of being inclusive. We 00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:41.159 are doing the best we can, but we still have 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.460 a long way to go. I completely agree with you. 00:35:45.610 --> 00:35:48.829 I went back to South Africa. This is how I heard 00:35:48.829 --> 00:35:54.309 about you, actually. Yeah. From the Sofan hostel. 00:35:56.050 --> 00:36:02.550 I stayed at that hostel for two months. And I 00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:05.130 told him about the podcast and he was like, oh, 00:36:05.269 --> 00:36:08.289 like, write the question. And I was like, what 00:36:08.289 --> 00:36:10.510 is that? And he was like, you should message 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:15.500 him on Instagram. Oh, I'm like, okay. And here 00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:19.320 we are. And the reason I'm pointing that out 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:23.219 is specifically because on TikTok, the community 00:36:23.219 --> 00:36:28.119 is so strong. And walking down the street, it's 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:30.599 the first time I've ever walked down the street 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.699 that wasn't like a clearly LGBTQ plus positive 00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:38.380 country like Thailand, where you can see a brown 00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:44.119 flag on the streets. And that was... To me, that 00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:48.699 was, that just blew me away. I went to four cities. 00:36:49.460 --> 00:36:52.179 I went to Johannesburg, Victoria, and Durban. 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.579 I've kept up in 10 days. For the first time, 00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.400 it was my first time going to South Africa as 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:04.780 a queer woman. Yeah. And every single city's 00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:09.260 experience was drastically different. And it 00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:12.099 just shows you, like, that's it. the country 00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:16.760 has come a long way the cultures in the different 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:20.420 regions have separated in such a way that you 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:23.119 can kind of feel where the progress is happening 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:27.579 yeah just by being there but yeah right it's 00:37:27.579 --> 00:37:31.539 rapidly improving every every year i went to 00:37:31.539 --> 00:37:35.780 south africa to change my my people documents 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:39.829 to do the application and i was terrified I haven't 00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:44.550 gone back, and I guess it was an error, but the 00:37:44.550 --> 00:37:47.389 manager of the Department of DHA, Department 00:37:47.389 --> 00:37:51.670 of Public Affairs, the loveliest guy, we had 00:37:51.670 --> 00:37:56.510 a long chat. He filled in the paperwork for me 00:37:56.510 --> 00:38:01.429 to make sure there were no errors. Respectful. 00:38:02.070 --> 00:38:05.389 Amazing. That is beautiful. And I must say, I'm 00:38:05.389 --> 00:38:07.750 so glad that you mentioned something about K 00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:12.989 -Town. which is the city that I live in. I think 00:38:12.989 --> 00:38:18.230 sometimes for me, it was not so difficult to 00:38:18.230 --> 00:38:20.690 do the show that I'm doing because I'm in Cape 00:38:20.690 --> 00:38:23.489 Town, which is considered to be the most queer 00:38:23.489 --> 00:38:26.929 friendly city in the African continent. And I 00:38:26.929 --> 00:38:30.070 must say, I must comment, I must give a shout 00:38:30.070 --> 00:38:31.789 out to each and everyone that lives in Cape Town, 00:38:31.929 --> 00:38:36.079 whether they're queer or not. The community in 00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:38.119 Cape Town, whether you're queer or you're not 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:41.340 queer, everyone in Cape Town is just so friendly 00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:45.659 towards and very open -minded towards the queer 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:48.820 community, which is something beautiful that, 00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:50.940 you know, tourists come to Cape Town and they 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:53.380 experience that. And they always, you know, tell 00:38:53.380 --> 00:38:56.699 us that you guys are so welcoming to the queer 00:38:56.699 --> 00:39:01.280 community in Cape Town. And I feel like the city 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.650 is absolutely a perfect example. of acceptance, 00:39:05.929 --> 00:39:11.030 inclusion, and diversity, you know, in terms 00:39:11.030 --> 00:39:14.289 of queer rights, in terms of respecting queer 00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:16.449 rights, in terms of protecting queer rights, 00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:20.070 in terms of honoring queer rights and honoring 00:39:20.070 --> 00:39:22.769 queer individuals. I feel like that is absolutely 00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:26.489 amazing that you've mentioned that. And as much 00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:30.690 as those stories are being told on television, 00:39:30.969 --> 00:39:36.699 I... honestly generally feel like um we need 00:39:36.699 --> 00:39:40.519 to tell the stories of chase king is is a queer 00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:42.760 man who's running a successful establishment 00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:45.860 we need to start to tell the stories of queers 00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:49.119 in business you know queers who are running who 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.619 are ceos who are entrepreneurs who are business 00:39:51.619 --> 00:39:54.380 people and are running successful businesses 00:39:54.380 --> 00:39:57.860 we barely don't we don't see those stories on 00:39:57.860 --> 00:40:01.159 television And I feel like it's time that we 00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:03.679 see those stories as well. I'm so glad that you've 00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:07.199 mentioned Chase King. I've got one episode on 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.920 this show, on Pride the Queer Show, that celebrates 00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:14.820 queers in business, people who are queer and 00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:17.500 are running incredible, successful establishments. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.000 And that is one episode that I wanted us to put 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:25.699 out there so that people can see that it is possible 00:40:25.699 --> 00:40:29.110 to be queer. and it is possible to be queer and 00:40:29.110 --> 00:40:33.909 be a boss, and be a boss babe, and be the CEO 00:40:33.909 --> 00:40:37.369 of a corporation company, be a CEO of a hotel, 00:40:37.590 --> 00:40:46.130 be a CEO of an Airbnb, you know? And when I had 00:40:46.130 --> 00:40:48.190 that conversation with him, sitting down with 00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:51.250 him, I was like, wow, it is actually possible 00:40:51.250 --> 00:40:54.130 to be queer and be an entrepreneur, you know? 00:40:54.699 --> 00:40:56.840 We shouldn't limit ourselves as queer individuals. 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.699 And I'm so glad that he came to Cape Town and 00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:03.800 opened that hostel. Please tell him he needs 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:06.539 to open more of these spaces in South Africa, 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.679 actually. I'm going to send him this episode. 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:11.579 I'll make sure that he knows I would like you 00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:16.219 better than this. Yeah. Okay, I think we should 00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:19.320 move on. You don't have a role. We want to go 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:26.780 home. Do you not have a perspective? You go, 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:31.699 Ray. What a perspective. And I had this in my 00:41:31.699 --> 00:41:45.119 mind. It's just whatever you're thinking at that 00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.460 moment, you know? Exactly. Trying to get their 00:41:48.460 --> 00:41:51.889 thoughts. Yeah, I'm trying to just make sure 00:41:51.889 --> 00:41:56.389 that I articulate myself well. Okay, my perspective 00:41:56.389 --> 00:42:00.210 is a quote that I read. You don't love me, you 00:42:00.210 --> 00:42:05.710 love the idea. Can you say that again? And specifically, 00:42:05.989 --> 00:42:11.170 you don't love me, you love your idea of me. 00:42:11.329 --> 00:42:13.530 Okay. And I think that's something that can mean 00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:20.730 differently for anyone. You guys. I'm gearing 00:42:20.730 --> 00:42:25.030 up to tell a lot more of my own story, a lot 00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:32.570 more of the PG... PG -13 and R -18 details that 00:42:32.570 --> 00:42:38.829 have never come out. PG -13 -2 are... I'm just 00:42:38.829 --> 00:42:41.429 saying that it's interspersed. The whole thing 00:42:41.429 --> 00:42:45.789 is definitely not for kids. But I had a conversation 00:42:45.789 --> 00:42:48.269 and there are people that I haven't spoken to. 00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:53.409 for eight months now. Like, I'm not. I don't 00:42:53.409 --> 00:42:57.110 know how to describe it. I've been pretending 00:42:57.110 --> 00:43:04.130 to be a son, a brother, for 35 years. And I've 00:43:04.130 --> 00:43:06.869 been carrying this thing with me for always. 00:43:07.769 --> 00:43:11.030 And I'm finally, I have the courage to tell the 00:43:11.030 --> 00:43:13.710 truth. And the message I got back was, no matter 00:43:13.710 --> 00:43:19.489 what you do, I'll... always love you, but I have 00:43:19.489 --> 00:43:25.329 to protect my future non -existent, current and 00:43:25.329 --> 00:43:28.190 non -existent children from this transgender 00:43:28.190 --> 00:43:31.429 narrative. And when you're ready to be my brother, 00:43:31.610 --> 00:43:37.010 I will be here for you. And I was like, oh, that 00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:41.469 was the last. That was the last. Okay. Eight 00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:44.329 months ago or that was just now? That was eight 00:43:44.329 --> 00:43:48.369 months ago. So. You will talk to this person 00:43:48.369 --> 00:43:52.429 again? Or? I don't know. Oh, okay. It's up to 00:43:52.429 --> 00:43:57.929 them. I really hate that that person said narrative. 00:43:59.210 --> 00:44:02.230 I, if this was just like, that the whole, that 00:44:02.230 --> 00:44:06.369 like a transgender person creates this story 00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:12.130 that isn't, isn't not real. Like not, not something 00:44:12.130 --> 00:44:14.829 that is like a real experience for the person. 00:44:16.720 --> 00:44:19.219 I don't know how to say it, like disqualified 00:44:19.219 --> 00:44:21.960 by calling it a narrative. It's not real. It's 00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:25.360 fiction. That's a side. I just don't like that. 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:29.699 So I'm saying that from the perspective of a 00:44:29.699 --> 00:44:32.400 trans person. And I completely get the shock. 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:38.659 The potential taken abackness that you can have 00:44:38.659 --> 00:44:41.199 with somebody coming out. But if you're not able 00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:45.019 to reconcile with a person. with their identity, 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:48.340 the person that you've known, and realize that 00:44:48.340 --> 00:44:50.679 they're still the same person, you don't love 00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:53.260 them. You love the idea. You love your idea. 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:56.599 Okay. Say that again. Say that again. I need 00:44:56.599 --> 00:44:59.880 to hear that again. You don't love me. You love 00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:03.840 your idea. Right. But then you also said something 00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.880 like they're not really themselves. Something 00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:10.699 like that. Am I making sense? Because what I 00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:15.739 was thinking was... You're not totally separate 00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:18.880 from a past self. It's always who you were. I'm 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:22.340 not saying that I'm separate from the past self. 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:24.800 I wish you could go. I wish you could rewind. 00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:31.739 Exactly. I haven't changed. Yeah. I'm still the 00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:34.539 same person. Yes. I've been pretending to be 00:45:34.539 --> 00:45:38.679 someone else. To be not someone else. Just a 00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:41.179 different person. I've been dressing. I've been 00:45:41.179 --> 00:45:44.059 forcing myself. Right. To do something that I 00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:48.719 don't want to do in or out of a place of fear 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:54.739 and in a place of not knowing. This is something 00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:58.760 that I want to tell you as well. I want to give 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:03.400 queer creators a platform. That's what I want 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:07.159 to do. Because if I had known before my life 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:09.940 changed the way it has now, my life would have 00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:16.139 reached this point much faster. Absolutely. I 00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:19.500 have a question because I feel like you're saying 00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:24.500 this happened, let's say, eight months ago. You're 00:46:24.500 --> 00:46:26.880 saying the person didn't love you. They love 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:34.000 their own version of who you are, right? But 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:38.480 deep down, you know, because it seems like if 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.780 you had the conversation with the person, deep 00:46:40.780 --> 00:46:43.969 down, Do you believe that the person doesn't 00:46:43.969 --> 00:46:48.030 love you? Or deep down, it's just a matter of 00:46:48.030 --> 00:46:53.590 they are finding it difficult now to accept who 00:46:53.590 --> 00:46:55.989 you are. Because there are two things, right? 00:46:56.469 --> 00:46:59.969 There's love, which is something that you can 00:46:59.969 --> 00:47:03.590 erase easily and wake up tomorrow and say, I 00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:08.050 don't love Sinaloa. That is impossible. But there's 00:47:08.050 --> 00:47:11.489 acceptance, right? Yeah, I will always love you. 00:47:11.739 --> 00:47:14.260 Then there's acceptance. You know, we need to 00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:16.619 always find the balance between the other person 00:47:16.619 --> 00:47:19.940 loves me. Okay, probably they love me. Maybe 00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:24.019 they're finding hard to accept who I am. Do you 00:47:24.019 --> 00:47:26.239 feel like maybe that's the case with what has 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:29.239 happened to you? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, 00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:35.139 maybe rephrase. You love your idea of what you 00:47:35.139 --> 00:47:40.380 want me to be. Yeah. And I'm saying this in a 00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:44.059 trans context because that's easy for me to withdraw 00:47:44.059 --> 00:47:47.699 from. And I'm also thinking not about people 00:47:47.699 --> 00:47:53.019 who are struggling to come to terms with being 00:47:53.019 --> 00:47:57.280 out. I'm specifically talking to people who do 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:02.480 the harsh cutoff and don't become. And I think 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.739 that they still love them. The love is still 00:48:05.739 --> 00:48:09.860 there, right? The feeling, the connection, the 00:48:09.860 --> 00:48:14.860 memories, that's not erasable. Yeah. But if you 00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:20.000 are more attached to that than the person who 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:22.840 is real and there in your life, even if they've 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:26.960 changed, that is cause for serious introspection. 00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:29.760 I think, fair enough. But how do you get this 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:32.719 person, how do you get... Oh, it's not, it's 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:35.139 not something that you can enforce. Yeah. I can't 00:48:35.139 --> 00:48:36.719 hear you. You're breaking. It's the point where 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.719 they decide to have an inspection. It's not something 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.139 you can force. You have to wait for them to do 00:48:42.139 --> 00:48:45.440 that by themselves. And what's person to do that? 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.840 That's my question. Can you hear us? You guys 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:55.480 are breaking a bit. Ray, you're fine. I can hear 00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:58.480 you clearly. It's because your beard has been 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:05.849 touched. Don't say it. You're embarrassing me. 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:15.690 You're shaving me. I just saw, Ray, I just saw 00:49:15.690 --> 00:49:17.789 a flat behind you. I was like, let me just bring 00:49:17.789 --> 00:49:23.269 something as well. I was like, okay, you've got 00:49:23.269 --> 00:49:25.250 a flat behind you. Let me just have something 00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:32.210 with me as well. It's beautiful. I thought this 00:49:32.210 --> 00:49:35.659 for him today. Yes, I was pumped. I was really 00:49:35.659 --> 00:49:38.400 surprised. It was a good surprise. I want to 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.659 put it somewhere though where the world can see 00:49:41.659 --> 00:49:47.559 it. Can I? I wanted to bring it to work. Ruby 00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:49.980 said don't do it. I want to hear your question 00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:54.619 before I tell you something. Oh, sorry. No, I 00:49:54.619 --> 00:49:56.800 don't have a question. I just wanted to add in 00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.539 a perspective, actually. I feel like I understand. 00:50:01.469 --> 00:50:05.730 where you come from in terms of you don't love 00:50:05.730 --> 00:50:09.230 me you love this image this idea of that you 00:50:09.230 --> 00:50:13.710 have of me you know there is you know the um 00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:19.250 i get told all the time right by friends people 00:50:19.250 --> 00:50:22.710 who are close to me people around me that you 00:50:22.710 --> 00:50:25.769 know i love the kind of gay men that you are 00:50:25.769 --> 00:50:28.989 and i'll be like what kind of a gay man i am 00:50:29.710 --> 00:50:31.750 I love the fact that you're not wearing wigs 00:50:31.750 --> 00:50:36.309 and heels and stuff. And I'm like, what if I 00:50:36.309 --> 00:50:39.070 were to wake up tomorrow, put on a wig and heel? 00:50:39.210 --> 00:50:42.429 Would that change the love that you have for 00:50:42.429 --> 00:50:46.949 me? You know? I don't think so. And I'll get 00:50:46.949 --> 00:50:50.909 answers such as, I wouldn't be able to go out 00:50:50.909 --> 00:50:52.690 with you and party with you if you're wearing 00:50:52.690 --> 00:50:55.809 heels. Or I'll get answers like, I wouldn't be 00:50:55.809 --> 00:50:59.980 able to, you know. be in the same and relax and 00:50:59.980 --> 00:51:02.860 chill with you in the same space you know so 00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:06.340 I'm like okay you are accepting me being a gay 00:51:06.340 --> 00:51:09.260 man but there are certain things that you think 00:51:09.260 --> 00:51:12.300 you don't want me to do as a gay man so you are 00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:17.699 dictating my gayness right now you are telling 00:51:17.699 --> 00:51:21.659 me I'm accepting this I'm accepting you to this 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:24.980 extent if you go beyond that you're on your own 00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:31.139 it's like the allies okay so your friends allyship 00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:33.480 is a performance if that makes sense you know 00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:36.199 they're performing being allied they don't really 00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:38.420 care about you it's conditional like you said 00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:41.699 you're not the right kind of gay man like if 00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:46.019 you wear whatever they quit or walk around with 00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:50.780 a dress and you're too i don't know flamboyant 00:51:50.780 --> 00:51:54.219 and they're not just wanting to like what about 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.880 straight drag queens are they their own kind 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.360 of straight or is it okay for them to wear high 00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:05.559 heels like well you'd have to that would have 00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:08.599 to apply that like a drag queen is just existing 00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:12.199 in the world throughout their day not performing 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:15.900 on stage at night in a very specific context 00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:20.300 okay fair what about but i'm thinking of straight 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:23.019 cross -dressing that you actually don't cross 00:52:23.019 --> 00:52:36.590 -dress Yeah. So, is it love that comes with terms 00:52:36.590 --> 00:52:40.969 and conditions? Right? Yeah, exactly. That's 00:52:40.969 --> 00:52:44.730 my point. I mean, honestly, it should. Like, 00:52:44.730 --> 00:52:48.670 good love, true love, you know, what would we 00:52:48.670 --> 00:52:52.969 think? For me, I think all love has a condition. 00:52:53.630 --> 00:52:57.300 Oof. Yeah. All right. Let's hear it. That condition 00:52:57.300 --> 00:53:02.139 is hate and rejection. The only kind of person 00:53:02.139 --> 00:53:07.119 that I remember a lot is a fascist or racist 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:12.000 or someone who starts to come into that direction 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.119 where they hate someone or dislike someone or 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:18.840 reject someone because of who they are, not because 00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:21.820 of what they've done. Yeah. I don't know how 00:53:21.820 --> 00:53:25.800 to respond to that. You just sunblocked me. I'll 00:53:25.800 --> 00:53:30.699 love you if you're not a bad person. Okay. I'll 00:53:30.699 --> 00:53:33.860 love you if you're good. It's more than just 00:53:33.860 --> 00:53:36.679 being a bad person. You can love a bad person. 00:53:36.820 --> 00:53:39.860 Yeah. But there comes a point where you cannot 00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:43.760 justify that anymore. You can't justify that 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:49.199 feeling. And I don't see how... There comes a 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:52.320 point where... Nobody should be able to justify 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.619 wanting to be around someone who behaves in certain 00:53:55.619 --> 00:53:58.960 ways. And you can see it in lots of ways. For 00:53:58.960 --> 00:54:08.300 example, say women who survive domestic violence 00:54:08.300 --> 00:54:11.679 situations, and they go back to that moment. 00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:14.000 Why do they go back to that? And then they go 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:17.760 through the kid. Attachment, attachment style. 00:54:18.989 --> 00:54:24.010 Yeah, I know. It's like that magically, women 00:54:24.010 --> 00:54:26.050 from society and they should be harmed, right? 00:54:26.130 --> 00:54:29.949 Like that woman should be harmed. Why does she 00:54:29.949 --> 00:54:32.349 go back? Like, how do you justify, how does she 00:54:32.349 --> 00:54:35.929 justify it? And she could be murdered in that 00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:41.159 situation. Yeah. And that's not like this. violence 00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:45.039 is absolutely unjustifiable and he might go on 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.860 living in society after giving... Yeah, I mean, 00:54:47.900 --> 00:54:50.719 you'd hope that. You would hope that, but it 00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:55.679 happens. Sure. Anyway, sorry. I don't know enough, 00:54:55.820 --> 00:54:59.599 but the reason this is in my mind right now is 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:04.739 because before this show, I watched Donald Trump 00:55:04.739 --> 00:55:09.179 say or insinuate that domestic violence is not 00:55:09.179 --> 00:55:15.409 a crime. I mean, objectively, a crime is only 00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:20.909 defined as a crime. Domestic violence is defined 00:55:20.909 --> 00:55:27.250 as a crime. He went on to say, crime rates are 00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:31.929 much lower than reported because if a man has 00:55:31.929 --> 00:55:40.719 a fight with their wife at home, It's reported 00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:47.219 as a crime. It's not a crime. I feel it. What's 00:55:47.219 --> 00:55:51.900 the name of our political podcast? You love talking 00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:56.639 about Trump. Say nothing when it comes to Trump. 00:55:56.780 --> 00:56:02.659 It's not a crime. You know. I don't know. He's 00:56:02.659 --> 00:56:05.840 a shit staying on here. He's actively raising 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.289 trans friends. Yes. it's flowing around the world 00:56:09.289 --> 00:56:11.369 so it's yeah it's something that i think about 00:56:11.369 --> 00:56:16.030 constantly anyway um the reason i wanted to say 00:56:16.030 --> 00:56:18.909 not for the reason to take this is because i 00:56:18.909 --> 00:56:21.949 i'm not going to just found my own worker because 00:56:21.949 --> 00:56:24.909 i feel rather stressed yeah so don't take this 00:56:24.909 --> 00:56:28.289 to work because i still kind of want to take 00:56:28.289 --> 00:56:30.849 it it's not even doing anything i just feel like 00:56:30.849 --> 00:56:33.590 it's a cool flight yeah that's what i believe 00:56:33.590 --> 00:56:39.239 in the in the in the scope of The education we 00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:43.920 teach, it's a perfectly suitable thing to put 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:47.420 in a classroom. Yes, but I was also a perfectly 00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:50.280 suitable teacher to have in a classroom. Yeah, 00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:58.539 you were the teacher. I'm just not a joke. It's 00:56:58.539 --> 00:57:03.079 true. You have to laugh about it. Yeah. Anyway, 00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:07.110 I think that's my perspective. You have to bring 00:57:07.110 --> 00:57:09.550 us something like party. Okay. Well, you know, 00:57:09.650 --> 00:57:14.389 I got perfect. It is kind of like art. Yeah. 00:57:14.429 --> 00:57:20.530 We need, we need. Okay. A little bit lighter. 00:57:20.610 --> 00:57:23.010 I'm kind of a crotch field, man. I was watching 00:57:23.010 --> 00:57:27.570 a video. You know, when I wake up in the morning, 00:57:27.610 --> 00:57:30.809 I get ready to go to work. I can't not be listening 00:57:30.809 --> 00:57:32.969 to something because I just don't, I don't want 00:57:32.969 --> 00:57:37.530 to deal with my own inner silence. So I like 00:57:37.530 --> 00:57:41.409 to just watch videos of random people's perspectives, 00:57:41.610 --> 00:57:44.909 you know, much like our podcast. So this is something 00:57:44.909 --> 00:57:47.650 you hear all the time. There's always someone 00:57:47.650 --> 00:57:54.489 on the internet saying, when it comes to like 00:57:54.489 --> 00:57:58.949 financial life, don't live beyond your means. 00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:01.269 I always regret that. There's always something 00:58:01.269 --> 00:58:05.650 under my... and didn't spend so much money, yada, 00:58:05.650 --> 00:58:09.269 yada, yada. But something they always come to 00:58:09.269 --> 00:58:13.610 is, I should have spent more of my money on experiences 00:58:13.610 --> 00:58:20.230 and topics. Now, my take is, it doesn't matter 00:58:20.230 --> 00:58:23.670 what you spend your money on. You're still spending 00:58:23.670 --> 00:58:27.210 your money on something. And maybe to disagree 00:58:27.210 --> 00:58:30.110 with you, but the idea of spending money on... 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:33.599 an experience like travel is to me just another 00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:39.599 it's another ruse it's just a newer bourgeois 00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:42.840 sentiment now you're always spending your money 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:48.420 on something that is finite it doesn't last and 00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:49.960 you're always going to look for another experience 00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:54.679 to spend your money on whereas if you buy things 00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:57.460 you can't keep buying things because eventually 00:58:57.460 --> 00:58:59.199 you have too much things and maybe you're gonna 00:59:00.989 --> 00:59:03.050 Yeah. Do you have to deal with your existential 00:59:03.050 --> 00:59:06.989 angst? You've got too much crap. But my take 00:59:06.989 --> 00:59:10.650 is no matter what you spend your money on, you're 00:59:10.650 --> 00:59:14.550 still spending your money on something. And it 00:59:14.550 --> 00:59:16.869 doesn't matter if it's a vacation experience. 00:59:17.449 --> 00:59:20.909 It doesn't matter if it's, you know, whatever. 00:59:21.030 --> 00:59:25.369 I wish I could give you a high five right now. 00:59:25.369 --> 00:59:29.739 Do away with the whole, you know. find more experiences 00:59:29.739 --> 00:59:36.159 yeah i i want like i want to give you a high 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:41.679 five for that i totally i totally agree with 00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:45.219 you literally and this is a conversation i'm 00:59:45.219 --> 00:59:48.219 so glad that you literally brought this on on 00:59:48.219 --> 00:59:50.679 the table this is a conversation that my birth 00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:54.059 my boyfriend i usually have all the time right 00:59:55.570 --> 00:59:59.849 I believe in spending money. When you spend money 00:59:59.849 --> 01:00:03.210 on something at that particular time, trust me, 01:00:03.309 --> 01:00:07.150 trust you me, you wanted to spend your money 01:00:07.150 --> 01:00:10.570 on that thing. And at that point of time, spending 01:00:10.570 --> 01:00:12.909 your money on that particular thing fulfilled 01:00:12.909 --> 01:00:16.610 your heart. It's what you wanted to do at that 01:00:16.610 --> 01:00:20.110 particular time. My boyfriend always talks about 01:00:20.110 --> 01:00:24.159 buying houses, buying cars. and just spend money 01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:27.059 on something that you can point and see. And 01:00:27.059 --> 01:00:29.980 I always tell him that for me, it's all about 01:00:29.980 --> 01:00:34.019 the experience. You know, I always spend money 01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:38.340 on things that I will 10 years later be like, 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.280 wow, that was such a great experience for me. 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.219 That is such a great memory. I always tell him 01:00:44.219 --> 01:00:46.139 about traveling, that when I have money, I always 01:00:46.139 --> 01:00:49.619 travel across South Africa because for me, that 01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:53.099 is a great experience. for him it's like no you 01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:58.260 can't just travel and spend um 3 000 us dollars 01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:03.300 on traveling or 20 000 rands on traveling you 01:01:03.300 --> 01:01:05.380 need to invest on buying a house you need to 01:01:05.380 --> 01:01:10.519 buy a car um and i'm like but spending money 01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:13.239 on what you want to spend on it's something that 01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:16.199 you wanted to do at that particular time i don't 01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.940 care what it is but it's something that you wanted 01:01:18.940 --> 01:01:22.849 to do so For me, it's all about experience. I 01:01:22.849 --> 01:01:25.349 spend money on things that gives me good experience 01:01:25.349 --> 01:01:30.389 and I will always pay for good comfort. But for 01:01:30.389 --> 01:01:32.570 him, it's all about, you need to look at something 01:01:32.570 --> 01:01:34.750 and point it and say, that's what I spend my 01:01:34.750 --> 01:01:36.869 money on. And for me, sometimes it's not about 01:01:36.869 --> 01:01:40.469 that. I mean, I'm not adverse to managing your 01:01:40.469 --> 01:01:42.809 money, but I don't want people to get caught 01:01:42.809 --> 01:01:47.670 up in the ruse that buying an experience is better 01:01:47.670 --> 01:01:53.010 than buying a thing. It's all the same. I think 01:01:53.010 --> 01:01:56.409 there's a secret travel. Yeah, there's a secret 01:01:56.409 --> 01:02:00.929 travel lobbyist. The travel industry is quite, 01:02:01.050 --> 01:02:03.809 you know, they can make more money. But they 01:02:03.809 --> 01:02:06.449 said, they said just like, let's make travel. 01:02:06.730 --> 01:02:11.630 I think, I think big travel is less than a thing 01:02:11.630 --> 01:02:15.170 than big anything else, except for airplanes. 01:02:15.909 --> 01:02:18.869 Like it depends where you travel and how you 01:02:18.869 --> 01:02:21.909 travel because you can, very easily select i 01:02:21.909 --> 01:02:24.369 guess you could do with all products but you 01:02:24.369 --> 01:02:28.030 can't do it with oil for example if i'm doing 01:02:28.030 --> 01:02:32.070 with houses for example like you can travel to 01:02:32.070 --> 01:02:34.750 places that aren't controlled by giant corporations 01:02:34.750 --> 01:02:40.889 and sending the pockets of yes and then but that's 01:02:40.889 --> 01:02:45.110 usually not in in our in our like the site guys 01:02:45.110 --> 01:02:48.829 all over the world when people are traveling 01:02:48.829 --> 01:02:53.130 for experiences It's pretty big. It's some exotic 01:02:53.130 --> 01:02:57.349 place. Oh yeah, for sure. Like, of course. Yeah. 01:02:58.889 --> 01:03:03.010 I just, I hate money in general because the idea 01:03:03.010 --> 01:03:05.710 that you have to say, how much money do you have 01:03:05.710 --> 01:03:09.829 to say to be able to retire? So there's no end. 01:03:09.929 --> 01:03:12.170 You go to the problem. Yeah, there's no way of 01:03:12.170 --> 01:03:14.750 knowing. Yes, inflation might change. But let's 01:03:14.750 --> 01:03:19.480 say an hypothetical vacuum where... Inflation 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:22.019 never changes, right? Your interest rate was 01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:29.300 starting to set. You need, let's say, $500 ,000 01:03:29.300 --> 01:03:32.800 Canadian dollars saved up before you can retire. 01:03:33.019 --> 01:03:41.780 That's a lot of money in South Africa. Yeah, 01:03:41.780 --> 01:03:46.179 yeah, yeah. $500 ,000 Canadian dollars saved 01:03:46.179 --> 01:03:49.630 up and this is going to keep you. enough interest 01:03:49.630 --> 01:03:54.030 and perpetuity to maintain a life after you retire. 01:03:54.329 --> 01:04:00.050 So you spent 65 years saving up this money. 65 01:04:00.050 --> 01:04:04.889 years? That's a little generous. No one works 01:04:04.889 --> 01:04:09.969 for 65 years. What? No one works for 65 years. 01:04:10.369 --> 01:04:14.530 Generally... Sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay. You worked 01:04:14.530 --> 01:04:19.360 for 55 years. When did you start working? When 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:20.900 you were 10? Oh, you've worked for 40 years. 01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:24.719 Oh, you've worked for 40 years. You've worked 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.460 for 40 years. Okay. You've worked for 40 years. 01:04:28.980 --> 01:04:34.699 Okay. To save this money so that you can live 01:04:34.699 --> 01:04:37.579 fruitively off of the little money that you can 01:04:37.579 --> 01:04:42.000 save. Yeah. And then you can't use that money 01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:44.539 because if you use it, you won't have enough 01:04:44.539 --> 01:04:48.699 interest to live. What is the point when you 01:04:48.699 --> 01:04:53.320 say it like that? But I assume if you're doing 01:04:53.320 --> 01:04:59.039 the right investment, what I understand is you 01:04:59.039 --> 01:05:03.639 invest in something called a basket. I'm not 01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:08.400 a financial guru. I don't know. You invest a 01:05:08.400 --> 01:05:11.860 certain amount of money and then it gets a certain 01:05:11.860 --> 01:05:13.980 percentage of interest every year. It gets bigger 01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:16.730 and bigger and bigger. And then by the time you're 01:05:16.730 --> 01:05:19.730 ready to retire or not, you can't work, then 01:05:19.730 --> 01:05:23.610 you can live off that interest, hopefully. Yeah, 01:05:23.670 --> 01:05:27.710 sure. I say, you sent me a video recently. And 01:05:27.710 --> 01:05:32.130 my opinion is, screw that. Diversify income to 01:05:32.130 --> 01:05:35.670 a point where you don't need to invest. Yes. 01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:39.530 You don't need to keep this like giant pool of 01:05:39.530 --> 01:05:42.610 money that you can never touch. What a dream. 01:05:42.889 --> 01:05:47.110 Yeah. And you can just do the things, like invest 01:05:47.110 --> 01:05:51.070 into passion projects or run a coffee shop and 01:05:51.070 --> 01:05:54.730 just write all the time. Some of us are really 01:05:54.730 --> 01:05:57.889 boring. We don't have passion projects. So all 01:05:57.889 --> 01:06:02.429 we can depend on is the interest. And if you 01:06:02.429 --> 01:06:06.510 don't have a passion project, you need to find 01:06:06.510 --> 01:06:10.150 one. Yeah, well, that's a really good point, 01:06:10.190 --> 01:06:14.559 actually. If you don't have interests... You 01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:18.099 should probably find entrances because it's probably 01:06:18.099 --> 01:06:21.380 not healthy to just be a lunk and not do anything. 01:06:21.739 --> 01:06:25.539 I feel like besides this, that's me lately. Nothing 01:06:25.539 --> 01:06:30.559 more satisfying than coming home and just watching 01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:34.159 TV. I just like a lot of computer news. I think 01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:36.260 that's a good, I don't think playing video games 01:06:36.260 --> 01:06:39.840 is a bad thing. I think nowadays, I mean, hey, 01:06:39.940 --> 01:06:42.820 there you go. Diversify, baby. Get on that Twitch 01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:46.039 account. Why don't you have people watch you 01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:50.579 play games? I like playing video games, but over 01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:53.019 the past couple of months it's just been too 01:06:53.019 --> 01:06:56.159 busy trying to find people to talk to. They want 01:06:56.159 --> 01:07:01.360 this and that. I'm the fun guy and making content 01:07:01.360 --> 01:07:06.320 and writing. I just have a lot of time. You say 01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:08.840 that like it's a bad thing. No, it's not a bad 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:11.019 thing. I love my life right now. There's so much 01:07:11.019 --> 01:07:14.730 to do. I don't know if we went off on a tangent 01:07:14.730 --> 01:07:18.309 from my original point. What's your perspective 01:07:18.309 --> 01:07:23.610 on money? Oh, yeah, sure. I like learning about 01:07:23.610 --> 01:07:26.349 how people deal with money. That's one of my 01:07:26.349 --> 01:07:30.329 interests. What is my perspective on money? I 01:07:30.329 --> 01:07:33.090 absolutely believe in investment. As I said, 01:07:33.130 --> 01:07:36.170 like you've mentioned that in South Africa, you 01:07:36.170 --> 01:07:39.670 retire at the age of 65, right? And you need 01:07:39.670 --> 01:07:42.010 to have enough money that it's going to... yeah 01:07:42.010 --> 01:07:45.809 that's going to literally make sure that you 01:07:45.809 --> 01:07:47.730 have a stuff thing you can sustain your lifestyle 01:07:47.730 --> 01:07:52.429 until you die um so i believe that you need to 01:07:52.429 --> 01:07:55.389 invest money especially for someone who works 01:07:55.389 --> 01:07:58.650 in the entertainment industry i once got asked 01:07:58.650 --> 01:08:02.550 this question kicking off my career at the age 01:08:02.550 --> 01:08:06.090 of 20 what would ha what would i have done differently 01:08:06.090 --> 01:08:10.610 in terms of money i i said i would have saved 01:08:10.610 --> 01:08:16.399 more and spend less money on clothes, and spend 01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:21.720 less money on traveling too much, and spend less 01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:27.100 money on partying, right? And instead of buying 01:08:27.100 --> 01:08:31.739 clothes for each and every event that I went 01:08:31.739 --> 01:08:33.979 to, because I could partially go to four events 01:08:33.979 --> 01:08:36.720 a week, and I could literally have to buy four 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:40.579 outfits a week. I said, I only realized eight 01:08:40.579 --> 01:08:43.180 years later in my career that I could have rented 01:08:43.180 --> 01:08:45.859 out those outfits. I did not have to buy those 01:08:45.859 --> 01:08:50.699 outfits. I could have literally, instead of buying 01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:52.600 four outfits, I could have literally went to 01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:55.500 a designer, a boutique and say, hi, I'm Sinaloa. 01:08:55.579 --> 01:08:58.539 I work for a television show. I need this clothes. 01:08:58.680 --> 01:09:01.920 I will give you 50 % and I'll return them later. 01:09:02.420 --> 01:09:06.520 The following day, you know, so now that I'm 01:09:06.520 --> 01:09:09.989 like, 10 years into the industry, I believe in 01:09:09.989 --> 01:09:13.590 investments and saving so much. And of course, 01:09:13.649 --> 01:09:17.270 finding projects that I know that if I start 01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:21.770 with projects in 2025, I know in 2035, this project 01:09:21.770 --> 01:09:26.149 is going to generate so much money. So that's 01:09:26.149 --> 01:09:29.430 literally me right now. I think I spent my 20s 01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:32.550 blowing money. I think I need to be featured 01:09:32.550 --> 01:09:39.100 on an episode of I blew it. And talk about how 01:09:39.100 --> 01:09:42.899 I blew money in my 20s. Because, yeah. So, now 01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:45.600 it's all about... I got the only one. Really? 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:49.939 Okay. That's good. I feel just like... I just 01:09:49.939 --> 01:09:55.579 feel like all 20 -year -olds are pretty wrapped 01:09:55.579 --> 01:09:57.920 up in money. It has a different perspective on 01:09:57.920 --> 01:10:01.439 that. Different experience. You want to talk 01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:02.659 about some of your... Did you blow your money 01:10:02.659 --> 01:10:06.180 in your 20s? Who lives to spend? Are you in Kwanhaa? 01:10:06.569 --> 01:10:10.010 You went to work in your 20s. Well, I didn't 01:10:10.010 --> 01:10:13.510 have much money, but I was getting paid enough 01:10:13.510 --> 01:10:17.109 to sustain my life as a 20 -year -old. And I 01:10:17.109 --> 01:10:21.229 feel like if I had taken some of that money and 01:10:21.229 --> 01:10:24.989 invested, as you said, Dre, and invested in projects 01:10:24.989 --> 01:10:29.649 that I literally was passionate about, I would 01:10:29.649 --> 01:10:32.210 be ripping. I would be enjoying the benefits 01:10:32.210 --> 01:10:38.399 right now. So for me. I don't come from a poor 01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:41.000 family, but individually, I was not wealthy. 01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:45.920 And I wasn't able to sustain myself. I wouldn't 01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:48.779 have been able to rent a house and go to the 01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:51.180 place where I was working. I couldn't find a 01:10:51.180 --> 01:10:57.199 job. And I went to Thailand, and that's when 01:10:57.199 --> 01:10:59.840 I started living. And then I was spending all 01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:02.739 of the money that I was saving traveling back 01:11:02.739 --> 01:11:09.750 home. Yeah. So that was a huge setback. And then 01:11:09.750 --> 01:11:13.250 I went to a German company. I came to China and 01:11:13.250 --> 01:11:15.390 the same thing was happening. And then COVID 01:11:15.390 --> 01:11:17.970 happened and I went into a huge amount of debt. 01:11:20.529 --> 01:11:26.989 I was about three, oh, sorry, maybe not my, 500 01:11:26.989 --> 01:11:31.770 ,000 grand in debt. How much is that? RME me. 01:11:32.590 --> 01:11:38.409 Oh, there you go. That is someone's salary in 01:11:38.409 --> 01:11:43.170 South Africa. That is someone's paycheck. A year's 01:11:43.170 --> 01:11:52.210 worth of work. Yeah, I was about $200 ,000. And 01:11:52.210 --> 01:11:56.869 now, this is the first time in my life where 01:11:56.869 --> 01:12:01.270 I have enough money in the bank to be able to 01:12:01.270 --> 01:12:05.800 sustain myself for... a significant amount of 01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:08.899 time without being paid. And I have zero debt. 01:12:09.140 --> 01:12:13.819 Well, that's what they say. Watching old people 01:12:13.819 --> 01:12:18.119 on YouTube talk about life and money, they say, 01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:20.899 what are you doing? That's where they wish they 01:12:20.899 --> 01:12:24.579 were. They always wish they had enough money 01:12:24.579 --> 01:12:28.260 to sustain themselves in case they couldn't afford 01:12:28.260 --> 01:12:30.630 it for a while. Yeah, it's no longer paycheck 01:12:30.630 --> 01:12:33.210 to paycheck, but for a very, very long time it 01:12:33.210 --> 01:12:38.210 was. Now I live like I live paycheck. But you 01:12:38.210 --> 01:12:40.430 are definitely not paycheck to paycheck. No, 01:12:40.430 --> 01:12:46.590 I'm very stingy. Yeah, you're like me. Don't 01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:50.789 worry, we only have a place to stay. I wouldn't 01:12:50.789 --> 01:12:56.010 say I'm stingy, but I think I just, now I'm just 01:12:56.010 --> 01:12:59.029 like, you know what? I'm in my 30s. I just need 01:12:59.029 --> 01:13:02.569 to be more careful what I spend money on. I was 01:13:02.569 --> 01:13:05.369 all about spending money on experience. And I 01:13:05.369 --> 01:13:08.210 don't regret it, trust me. I'm so glad that I've 01:13:08.210 --> 01:13:11.789 experienced a lot in my 20s. I don't regret any 01:13:11.789 --> 01:13:14.329 of that. But I still wish maybe I could have 01:13:14.329 --> 01:13:18.170 put at least 10 % away. You still can't, you 01:13:18.170 --> 01:13:22.390 know? Yeah, I still have a long way to go. Yeah, 01:13:22.409 --> 01:13:26.710 I still think I still care. Listen, Sonala, we're 01:13:26.710 --> 01:13:33.550 going to get rich. We're going to be. Let me, 01:13:33.590 --> 01:13:36.670 okay. Now, I've got an interesting question. 01:13:36.810 --> 01:13:39.810 Yeah. Last couple of questions. Okay. Well, I'll 01:13:39.810 --> 01:13:42.430 give you my last one. Okay. I have a question. 01:13:43.710 --> 01:13:47.670 As a LGBTQ plus folks. How is mine treated? How 01:13:47.670 --> 01:13:56.180 do LGBTQ people. I agree. Yeah, I've come to 01:13:56.180 --> 01:13:58.420 do that. What's your question? How is my country? 01:13:58.739 --> 01:14:01.760 Yeah. So, like, I'm thinking of, like, okay, 01:14:01.859 --> 01:14:05.220 I'm sure some epidemic someone has written, you 01:14:05.220 --> 01:14:10.239 know, about the relationship between queerness 01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:17.119 and money. And money. Yeah. Is it different as 01:14:17.119 --> 01:14:19.699 two queer folks? For me, it's not different. 01:14:20.460 --> 01:14:24.260 But maybe Sinan has more perspective as he runs 01:14:24.260 --> 01:14:28.340 and, you know. bigger circles of an LGBTQ, you 01:14:28.340 --> 01:14:32.020 know, LGBTQ community. It's so hard to always 01:14:32.020 --> 01:14:35.279 say that. How do the people around you, you know, 01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:37.079 view money? Is it something, like, they gotta 01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:40.659 live their best life? You know? Seize the day. 01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:46.640 And do you think that is, if it happens, is it 01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:51.539 specific to, you know, let's say queer culture, 01:14:51.680 --> 01:14:54.989 a lot better? Well... I'm not going to say much 01:14:54.989 --> 01:15:00.569 on that, but I'm not sure if Ray is, maybe this 01:15:00.569 --> 01:15:06.069 happens in the US, right? But I think for me, 01:15:06.170 --> 01:15:10.789 there is this idea that if you're a gay man, 01:15:10.869 --> 01:15:13.550 I'll talk about gay men. If you're a gay man, 01:15:13.750 --> 01:15:17.550 that automatically means you've got money. Not 01:15:17.550 --> 01:15:20.750 sure if maybe that's the same kind of mindset 01:15:20.750 --> 01:15:24.739 in the States. But in South Africa, being gay 01:15:24.739 --> 01:15:28.659 is automatically attached to being successful 01:15:28.659 --> 01:15:34.119 and having money. Very interesting. I don't know. 01:15:34.260 --> 01:15:37.840 I still need to also try to figure out where 01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:41.579 does that mentality come from. Maybe it's how 01:15:41.579 --> 01:15:50.420 we live as gay people, that we're so fleshy and 01:15:50.420 --> 01:15:54.909 flamboyant. and that automatically people think 01:15:54.909 --> 01:15:58.170 that we have money and we're smart and we're 01:15:58.170 --> 01:16:02.109 successful, we're rich. For example, people often 01:16:02.109 --> 01:16:07.989 say you can't be gay and not be successful because 01:16:07.989 --> 01:16:11.510 every gay man that has created something or has 01:16:11.510 --> 01:16:13.930 done something, they become the master of that 01:16:13.930 --> 01:16:16.989 thing. Now there's this pressure that if you're 01:16:16.989 --> 01:16:19.090 gay and you're getting into an industry or you're 01:16:19.090 --> 01:16:21.869 getting into a job sector, You're getting into 01:16:21.869 --> 01:16:23.989 whatever you're getting into. You need to be 01:16:23.989 --> 01:16:28.390 the best. I don't know why is that, but I also 01:16:28.390 --> 01:16:36.590 think for me as a gay man, that was a situation 01:16:36.590 --> 01:16:40.770 where I said, if no one has my back, I need to 01:16:40.770 --> 01:16:43.189 have my back. So everything that I've done in 01:16:43.189 --> 01:16:46.149 my life as a gay man was to prove people wrong 01:16:46.149 --> 01:16:50.010 or was to say, I need to have everything in my 01:16:50.010 --> 01:16:52.560 life put together. So if the world doesn't accept 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:57.520 who I am, at least I've got an income. I've got 01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:00.340 a successful career. I've got money. I can rely 01:17:00.340 --> 01:17:05.600 on myself. Also, I think it's a coping mechanism 01:17:05.600 --> 01:17:09.819 as gay men that we need to be successful in what 01:17:09.819 --> 01:17:13.680 we do. So that if the world rejects you, at least 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:18.619 you're educated enough. You're successful enough. 01:17:18.779 --> 01:17:21.729 You've got your own money. But I also don't know 01:17:21.729 --> 01:17:25.590 whether this idea of being gay and having money, 01:17:25.750 --> 01:17:29.689 how do they correspond? That when you're gay, 01:17:29.810 --> 01:17:32.949 it ultimately is your money, you know? And there's 01:17:32.949 --> 01:17:34.789 a bit of classism as well. I would say there 01:17:34.789 --> 01:17:38.470 is a bit of classism. Yeah, definitely. I think 01:17:38.470 --> 01:17:42.149 that that's definitely an interesting point of 01:17:42.149 --> 01:17:46.029 view because I'm on that right now. You can't 01:17:46.029 --> 01:17:51.859 hear me? I'm on that right now. I've made a lot 01:17:51.859 --> 01:17:56.899 of preparation in order to kind of prevent, what 01:17:56.899 --> 01:18:01.619 if the world doesn't accept me? What if I end 01:18:01.619 --> 01:18:05.020 up in a space that I definitely don't want to 01:18:05.020 --> 01:18:11.039 be in? Yeah. So I think that's definitely true. 01:18:11.180 --> 01:18:15.319 That comes from, that's one reason why gay people 01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:19.710 have my... And maybe because it's just like doomsday 01:18:19.710 --> 01:18:23.829 brother. Doomsday brother. Doomsday money. You 01:18:23.829 --> 01:18:28.550 have to be prepared. It's terrifying. Yeah. And 01:18:28.550 --> 01:18:33.829 I think a lot of, tell me if I'm wrong, this 01:18:33.829 --> 01:18:37.229 is an anecdotal observation. Gay men tend to 01:18:37.229 --> 01:18:41.329 come out earlier than a lot of other queer folks. 01:18:41.569 --> 01:18:45.569 And so they have more time to prepare. I wonder 01:18:45.569 --> 01:18:49.460 how interesting that is. check as a sister. They 01:18:49.460 --> 01:18:52.800 come into that realization that like, oh damn, 01:18:52.979 --> 01:18:57.520 I need to be ready. And so they become more frugal 01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.199 and they save more money earlier. And maybe there's 01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:04.380 a less of a stigma attached to gayness. That 01:19:04.380 --> 01:19:09.300 is actually true because most of gay men, including 01:19:09.300 --> 01:19:13.520 myself, we become comfortable in our sexuality. 01:19:14.439 --> 01:19:18.619 when we have achieved a lot in our lives. When 01:19:18.619 --> 01:19:21.220 we have achieved certain things in our lives, 01:19:21.319 --> 01:19:23.520 let's say you've moved out of home, you've bought 01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:25.640 a house or you've got an apartment, you've got 01:19:25.640 --> 01:19:28.060 a car, you've got a stable job. Now you feel 01:19:28.060 --> 01:19:33.060 like, okay, now I can tell people who I am, what 01:19:33.060 --> 01:19:36.680 I identify as. I don't care who says what. Maybe 01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:41.319 that's also, maybe that's also why. It's a thing 01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:44.270 for me. It's something that happened for me. 01:19:44.329 --> 01:19:46.109 Now, this is going to sound like I'm just agreeing, 01:19:46.289 --> 01:19:49.430 but that is actually the thought I have. Really? 01:19:50.029 --> 01:19:55.729 Yes. Like gay men, you know, self -actualize 01:19:55.729 --> 01:19:58.989 sooner, therefore become more successful and, 01:19:58.989 --> 01:20:02.149 you know, get more money, have more assets, whatever. 01:20:02.949 --> 01:20:08.489 And I think there is. People are welcome to do 01:20:08.489 --> 01:20:12.539 the research, but pretty sure. At some point 01:20:12.539 --> 01:20:16.939 in, like, history, maybe the early 2000s, gay 01:20:16.939 --> 01:20:19.779 couples were more, like, statistically more successful 01:20:19.779 --> 01:20:24.840 in life and had more money and assets. Why? I 01:20:24.840 --> 01:20:27.500 mean, that's what I assumed. I was like, that 01:20:27.500 --> 01:20:31.300 must be why. It could be male privilege. Male 01:20:31.300 --> 01:20:35.819 privilege. It could also come from the fear of 01:20:35.819 --> 01:20:39.619 rejection. Yeah. I think it could also be driven 01:20:39.619 --> 01:20:43.170 by the fear of... of being rejected. You know, 01:20:43.210 --> 01:20:46.390 if you come out at the age of 15 and you're rejected 01:20:46.390 --> 01:20:51.670 by your family, what now? You know? If you come 01:20:51.670 --> 01:20:54.470 out at the age of 25, when you've got everything, 01:20:54.770 --> 01:20:56.649 you've got a stable job, you've got an income, 01:20:56.949 --> 01:21:00.550 you've got your own place, and your family rejects 01:21:00.550 --> 01:21:02.390 you, at least you're not going to be homeless 01:21:02.390 --> 01:21:07.329 after that. You've already created your own income. 01:21:07.550 --> 01:21:10.579 You've already created your own... circle of 01:21:10.579 --> 01:21:12.859 friends you've already created your own sense 01:21:12.859 --> 01:21:16.640 of community outside your family so if your parents 01:21:16.640 --> 01:21:19.880 says we are rejecting you at least we've got 01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:22.699 people that are gonna support you at least you've 01:21:22.699 --> 01:21:24.680 got a place to sleep at least you've got an income 01:21:24.680 --> 01:21:27.779 every month i think it comes from a place of 01:21:27.779 --> 01:21:34.340 the fear of rejection um if you do it at an early 01:21:34.340 --> 01:21:36.640 age you might be rejected you might be homeless 01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:40.989 if you do it later in life Whether they reject 01:21:40.989 --> 01:21:43.789 you or not, you're not asking for their permission 01:21:43.789 --> 01:21:49.569 to be gay. Yeah. One thing I want to say. Sorry. 01:21:50.510 --> 01:21:54.310 Yeah. For me, being in a place of financial security, 01:21:54.550 --> 01:21:58.869 finance definitely gave me more courage to explore 01:21:58.869 --> 01:22:05.090 my own identity and be able to only match who 01:22:05.090 --> 01:22:09.649 I am. Yeah. Yeah, I think. It definitely makes 01:22:09.649 --> 01:22:11.789 a lot of sense because you need the resources 01:22:11.789 --> 01:22:15.949 and that safety net. Luigi has that giant safety 01:22:15.949 --> 01:22:18.189 net. He saves all his money because it's big 01:22:18.189 --> 01:22:21.869 in here. Yes, to a fault. No, but it's not particularly 01:22:21.869 --> 01:22:25.609 good. I say it all the time. Every episode at 01:22:25.609 --> 01:22:29.810 least. I gotta work on that. It can't make you 01:22:29.810 --> 01:22:33.270 miserable, you know, if you don't live well. 01:22:34.330 --> 01:22:37.069 Definitely. I'll ask your questions. If it's 01:22:37.069 --> 01:22:41.789 going to be an easy one, yes. Are you going to 01:22:41.789 --> 01:22:44.109 a big party tonight? Because you look amazing. 01:22:44.729 --> 01:22:48.270 I know you're going to an event. Yeah. Did you 01:22:48.270 --> 01:22:50.029 rent the clothes you're wearing? I know I'm going 01:22:50.029 --> 01:22:53.710 to change. Oh, right. But you look good enough 01:22:53.710 --> 01:22:58.409 to go. Thank you. Another thing is I could wear 01:22:58.409 --> 01:23:02.550 this, but the weather is a bit windy outside. 01:23:02.829 --> 01:23:06.460 I might be... cold getting we are in spring now 01:23:06.460 --> 01:23:11.039 so we chase in summer our spring in town has 01:23:11.039 --> 01:23:13.220 a different weather from the rest of the african 01:23:13.220 --> 01:23:17.260 continent our spring is very cold we in spring 01:23:17.260 --> 01:23:20.300 but it's a bit cold i would love to wear this 01:23:20.300 --> 01:23:24.300 but let's say around 5 p .m south african time 01:23:24.300 --> 01:23:28.140 i would get cold so i need to change into something 01:23:28.140 --> 01:23:31.319 else yeah also i just wore this because i was 01:23:31.319 --> 01:23:34.079 like i'm indoors it's quite warm the windows 01:23:34.079 --> 01:23:36.180 are closed because i don't want outside noise 01:23:36.180 --> 01:23:40.479 and it's warm here yeah i think we should probably 01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:42.939 do that so what was this what was the question 01:23:42.939 --> 01:23:45.880 again sorry did you ask your question that was 01:23:45.880 --> 01:23:53.119 the question where are you going tonight so i 01:23:53.119 --> 01:23:55.880 since i've started the show pride the queer show 01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:58.539 i've been getting a lot of requests you know 01:23:58.539 --> 01:24:03.140 to attend um queer events to be part of panels 01:24:03.140 --> 01:24:07.699 and queer events to be part of um to be part 01:24:07.699 --> 01:24:11.260 of to cover queer events for my show but tonight 01:24:11.260 --> 01:24:14.899 i'm going to a queer space a queer club called 01:24:14.899 --> 01:24:18.699 manhattan avenue it's right here in cape town 01:24:18.699 --> 01:24:23.319 it's a beautiful queer um club it's amazing it's 01:24:23.319 --> 01:24:25.560 one of those spaces where you feel safe as a 01:24:25.560 --> 01:24:28.119 queer individual so i've been invited they've 01:24:28.119 --> 01:24:32.239 got an event tonight it's um It's open to each 01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:34.899 and everyone who's queer and, of course, allies. 01:24:35.100 --> 01:24:37.500 Everyone wants to go. So they invited me to come 01:24:37.500 --> 01:24:40.899 through. They want me to tell the audience about 01:24:40.899 --> 01:24:43.060 my show, to go on stage and tell the audience 01:24:43.060 --> 01:24:45.319 about the work that I do on television with the 01:24:45.319 --> 01:24:49.840 show. So they invited me to come at the event 01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:53.659 to actually inform people and advertise my show. 01:24:53.800 --> 01:24:56.119 So I think that is a great opportunity for me 01:24:56.119 --> 01:24:59.649 to actually do that. I mean, like, we are 11 01:24:59.649 --> 01:25:02.949 episodes into the show. Tomorrow is our 10th. 01:25:03.109 --> 01:25:06.810 Then next week, 11th episode. So we're almost 01:25:06.810 --> 01:25:11.130 done with this season. So I think, yeah, I'm 01:25:11.130 --> 01:25:12.750 going. I'm not going to spend much time. I'll 01:25:12.750 --> 01:25:14.850 probably spend two hours, come back and sleep. 01:25:15.670 --> 01:25:19.369 That's it. So it's an event at Manhattan Avenue. 01:25:19.729 --> 01:25:24.569 Absolutely one of the best gay places in gay 01:25:24.569 --> 01:25:28.340 town. Would you like to tell our listeners about 01:25:28.340 --> 01:25:31.859 your social media accounts and how they can find 01:25:31.859 --> 01:25:35.399 you? All right. So if you are all the way from 01:25:35.399 --> 01:25:38.479 the U .S. or from Europe or from Middle East 01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:41.180 and you'd like to follow me, it's simple. You 01:25:41.180 --> 01:25:43.659 can find me on all social media platforms. I'm 01:25:43.659 --> 01:25:46.220 Senado Jonas, whether it's Facebook, TikTok, 01:25:46.420 --> 01:25:52.739 Instagram, LinkedIn, X slash Twitter. I'm Sinalo 01:25:52.739 --> 01:25:55.239 Jonas all over. And of course, you can follow 01:25:55.239 --> 01:25:59.119 the show on Instagram. It's at Pride The Queer 01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:01.739 Show. Or you can just hashtag us if you want 01:26:01.739 --> 01:26:04.420 to communicate with us. Hashtag Pride The Queer 01:26:04.420 --> 01:26:07.720 Show. So it's easy to find me. It's at Sinalo 01:26:07.720 --> 01:26:11.319 Jonas throughout. I told you I'm not cool enough 01:26:11.319 --> 01:26:15.500 for social media. You can contact me through 01:26:15.500 --> 01:26:20.760 me. I'm happy. And Susan is not ready to share. 01:26:20.819 --> 01:26:23.439 It's kind of lame. I need to post more. I also 01:26:23.439 --> 01:26:27.159 don't post as often, guys. Be on social media 01:26:27.159 --> 01:26:32.739 and update your friends. I'm firefromheat on 01:26:32.739 --> 01:26:38.020 Instagram. heatfromfire on TikTok. And rudelyrandio 01:26:38.020 --> 01:26:41.939 on YouTube. Get it. Thank you so much for coming 01:26:41.939 --> 01:26:47.810 on our show. So, if you don't mind. I'm going 01:26:47.810 --> 01:26:50.329 to stop the recording. Just stay on the line 01:26:50.329 --> 01:26:53.770 for a little bit to check if your upload is finished. 01:26:54.770 --> 01:26:56.850 Okay, cool. When are you guys coming to South 01:26:56.850 --> 01:27:11.159 Africa? Hi there, it's Ray again. If you've stuck 01:27:11.159 --> 01:27:13.779 all the way through to the end, again, I am so 01:27:13.779 --> 01:27:17.920 sorry for the poor quality of audio this time. 01:27:18.060 --> 01:27:21.659 I'm working on permanent solutions and learning 01:27:21.659 --> 01:27:25.779 as I go. I've had such fun growing this podcast, 01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:30.739 you know. Yeah, if you have any suggestions or 01:27:30.739 --> 01:27:33.039 things that you think I should try. Please let 01:27:33.039 --> 01:27:35.899 me know. Let me know if there's content. Let 01:27:35.899 --> 01:27:40.420 me know if you want to be on the show. I would 01:27:40.420 --> 01:27:44.020 be glad to have you. I'm also starting another 01:27:44.020 --> 01:27:48.539 podcast called In Confidence. You can send me 01:27:48.539 --> 01:27:52.819 your confidential stories, the stories that don't 01:27:52.819 --> 01:27:55.920 normally get to see the light of day, and I'm 01:27:55.920 --> 01:27:58.060 going to read them and share them. You're also 01:27:58.060 --> 01:28:01.800 welcome to come onto the show anonymously or 01:28:01.800 --> 01:28:08.979 not. and share your story with me. It's something, 01:28:09.199 --> 01:28:11.380 it's a bit of a passion project. I'm not sure 01:28:11.380 --> 01:28:14.039 how it's going to work, but I'm really excited. 01:28:14.239 --> 01:28:19.100 And if you want to see a lot of that, more content, 01:28:19.199 --> 01:28:22.680 of course, don't forget to like and subscribe. 01:28:23.180 --> 01:28:26.039 You can find, also comment in the doobly -doo. 01:28:26.640 --> 01:28:31.689 You can find... sinalo at sinalo jonas on instagram 01:28:31.689 --> 01:28:37.390 tiktok x he's not on youtube um and you can find 01:28:37.390 --> 01:28:40.529 pride the queer show at pride the queer show 01:28:40.529 --> 01:28:42.649 on instagram i'm not sure if they're on tiktok 01:28:42.649 --> 01:28:47.729 as well don't forget to stream anyway have a 01:28:47.729 --> 01:28:49.510 good one love you bye