WEBVTT

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It's back. Little unplug plug -in works. Yeah.

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Okay. That should be fine. How would you define

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yourself, Jess? Um... We haven't started yet.

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How would I define myself? Yeah. I can't just

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go with the umbrella term. Fucked up. Fucked

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up. Okay. Um... Creative. Over -thinker. Um...

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Lost. Create. Lost? Yeah. Why? Thank you. The

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way I'm going to introduce you is... I'm going

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to go through the spiel that we do for, like,

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Welcome to Kaleidoscope. There's going to be

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a second where the thing will play, like the

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intro I'll edit it in. And then after that, I'm

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going to introduce you. And then Luigi is going

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to introduce himself. And then you can introduce

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yourself. I'm going to say that you are a poet,

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a teacher. Anything else? Poet, teacher, performer.

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Socials? Um, yeah, aimer, underscore, moon, um,

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underscore, musing. Has that changed? No. Author?

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Oh yeah, right in the dark. Yeah. Really? That's

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cool. Poetry book. She gave me one and then I

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immediately lost it. I meant to bring another

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one, but I completely forgot. Shame. I've written

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another one for you. I've written a novel as

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well, just speaking with publishers. Really?

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Cool. Wasted my life. I'm going to, I'm going

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to kick it off. It's completely unscripted. It's

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like a nonchalant, almost irrelevant conversation.

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Ten, we're really drunk. Ten, we're really, it's

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a pity we don't have alcohol. We can, we can

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order wine. If you - Don't do it. You can't.

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Let's, how am I gonna start? Tough questions.

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Honest answers. Oh, the messy truth. your perspectives.

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Let's begin. Welcome to Kaleidoscope. Hi, I am

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RubyRaelio. I'm what happens, well, I'm the cyberpunk

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NPC we all wish was in the game but never downloaded.

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This is Kaleidoscope. where we explore the art

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of becoming through performance, writing, rhyming

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and teaching. Welcome to Kaleidoscope! Yay! We're

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joined today by, as always, the co -host, Luigi.

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I'm Luigi and I don't understand long sleeve

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shirts with shorts. And my dear friend, Jessica.

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Hi. I am just trying to make sense of the world

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through writing and creativity. Beautiful. Jessica,

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welcome to the podcast. I am honored to have

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you here in Suzhou and to be inside your hotel

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room, even though it's quite gothic. You say

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that like it's a bad thing. No, it's quite fitting.

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It's got a good vibe. It's quite fitting. Are

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we going for like dark? I like dark today. Yeah.

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Fine. Wait, wait, let me be more smoldering.

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When we do this podcast, we tend to share a perspective

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or ask a question and or just state an opinion

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and the rest of us kind of riff off of that.

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Do you have a perspective, opinion or something

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that you would like to share? I was hoping that

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we could talk about the function of creativity

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in the scope of mental health. That's a good

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one. I don't know. I thought we were going to

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talk about something else. That's better. Let's

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go with that. This is good. OK. What do you think?

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How do the two connect, mental health and creativity?

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I think for me, like, creativity is a lifeline.

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Like, the act of being able to create something

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even in a place that isn't necessarily a light

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place. So using the dark to create something

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beautiful, transmute it into something that could

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connect with others. I think you're right. And

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it makes me think very quickly. It very quickly

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made me connect to a place where there is a lack

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of creativity. And I think that the two in some

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way are linked. Because when you're in a dark

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place, it means that you're inherently sensitive

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to your environment. Right. And there's a group

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of people that lack creativity. but they steal

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it from others. They steal art. You expand on

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that. Fascist Nazis. What do you mean? They take

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creativity. Fascist Nazis. Yeah. I need you to

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elaborate. It's kind of vague. I think AI, but

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you know, whatever. I thought that's where we

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were going with that. Okay. Maybe eventually.

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No, I want to focus on this fascist Nazi thing.

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My opinions about AI are changing. Yeah. my opinions

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on... So if you look at American culture as a

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cross -section, creativity, art and culture within

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American society, and I think in many ways through

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all of time, comes from the bottom rungs of society.

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And if you like pizza, cheese fondue, fashion,

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music... Okay. Like, innovative art comes from

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the bottom rungs of society where people are

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oppressed, denied, and obstructed in the way

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that they can function. And I think the moment

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that you start, like anybody who starts to try

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and raise themselves above society through forceful

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means, like fascist Nazis, like I don't think,

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I'm sure that they were princes and princesses

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and kings and queens. and were born into that

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and kind of expressed through that. But they

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always tend to, like if you watch shows or read

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history, they always tend to go down in society

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to get that. So it sounds like you're talking

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about like appropriation. Yes, they take art.

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They steal it. The Nazis steal art. Nazis steal

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art. They steal creative... I mean, historically,

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Nazis stole some art. Yeah. But did they steal

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like an aesthetic and produced it? I do think

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so. Like, okay, right now. There's a big thing

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about the new Superman movie. Okay. Film me in.

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Film me in on the latest tea. It's coming in

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woke, okay? Is it? And the director has said

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that Superman is about... Superman is an illegal

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immigrant. Is that part of the plot in the movie?

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I feel like that is. I don't know why. That sounds

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so familiar. That's canonically what Superman

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is. Yes, he's an alien. Yeah, you can make those...

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I don't think the creator of Superman thought,

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oh, this is a metaphor for immigration. I think

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that he did. I think that he did. I think there

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was a little thing online. I think he needed

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a premise for a superhero to jump over buildings.

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And he used an illegal immigrant to do it. Because

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it's built on the premise of what America is.

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America was built on illegal immigrants. It's

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built on immigration, sure. Illegally? They didn't

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come in for friendly attention. Not all of them.

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I mean, historically, you know, there were people

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they wanted, or there were people America wanted

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to immigrate, sure. But okay, I'll go with it.

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Okay, tell me more about the Superman movie.

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And now you've got characters like Ben Shapiro.

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Is he in the Superman movie? No, no, no, no.

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He's not a character in the movie. He's a...

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character within the societal mindset. And he

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is saying that it's ridiculous. Superman is American

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at its core, which is fine. The movie is American.

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Yeah. But Superman as a character is not and

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never was and never will be. Otherwise, it's

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not Superman. Hmm. You mean he's not American

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because he's an alien. But Ben Shapiro is making

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the opposite statement. Well, I would say to

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Ben Shapiro actually isn't Superman Canadian

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in origin, but more importantly, I think a Canadian

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created Superman. I can fact check in a second,

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but I think Superman is American. He came, okay,

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let's say the world Superman exists in is America,

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a kind of America, right? A fictional America,

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but he landed in a spaceship. He did not understand.

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He was an orphan, he crashed, whatever, right?

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And then some parents, a couple found him and

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they raised him. So would that not mean he is

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American? Does the Poisoning Man have all those

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good values? He's an immigrant. He is, sure,

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he's an adopted little orphan baby, but American

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nonetheless. Not according to what's happening

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in America right now. Okay, so we need to really

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define... The flashpoint right now is Donald

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Trump's... deportations. That's what the argument

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is about. And the fact that the director has

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said that Superman, his movie, is a story about

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empathy, understanding, and immigration. Oh,

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so the director explicitly stated that. He made

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it. We'll see how many people watch the Superman

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movie. People will still flock to it. Yeah, of

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course. It's just pumping. I mean, I'll watch

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it until I see the dog, which I think is silly.

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I saw that part in the preview. Superdog? Took

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me out of it. Yeah. I haven't even seen it. I

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have zero interest in DC movies. Why do you think

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that is? Quick aside, why? Just because they're

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not as cool as Marvel? Why? Ask yourself why.

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Yeah, why? Why are they not as cool as Marvel

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movies? Budget? No. Characters? No. DC comics

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are cool. I'm X -Men all the way, so I don't

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know why you're looking at me. Yeah, but why

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is Marvel cooler than DC? Because X -Men is Marvel.

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I think the characters in Marvel have more of

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a struggle. as human beings exactly yeah they

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are relatable because yeah that's true all of

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dc's heroes are superheroes that are trying to

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be normal but all of marvel's heroes are normal

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people that are super like things have happened

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to them exactly so dc characters are kind of

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like interlopers yeah except for batman we're

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all thinking it except for that which is everybody

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loves for some then iron man is just marvel's

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batman he's significantly Cooler and more light

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-hearted. Yeah, but I would argue people don't

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really why do they like Iron Man because he's

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because he's cool I don't really like Iron Man

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because of explicitly because of those reasons.

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It's too perfect. It's too smart and successful

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He doesn't have a struggle He's dead in like

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them the the movies Canada movies, but like if

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we talk about the comics, I don't know. There's

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so many iterations Yeah, I'm not as much of a

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comic book buff as I'd like to admit So, you

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know, I've consumed the movies for the most part.

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Yeah, but anyway. Back to Nazis and fascism.

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Jess, how do you feel about what we've said so

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far? Superman, Nazis. I'm thinking WTF. I mean,

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I've stared clear of... the new Superman movie

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and any updates, because I'm just sick of films

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being regurgitated, if I'm honest. Fair point.

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But, you know, if a director is using it to make,

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you know, a really valid and important statement,

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particularly with the world that we're currently

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living in, like, that is super cool, because

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that puts, you know, puts themselves and their

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work on the line. And then we have, you know,

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lots of... Lots of people who have influence

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and who have power either staying silent or making

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some really shitty comments like, you know, it

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would be good to see someone with power actually

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using it for good. Yeah. As long as it's like

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actually followed through and not just, you know,

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throw away comments to try and make themselves

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seem appealing. I don't think he's using it to

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make a political statement. Unfortunately, he

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just went on an interview and made those statements.

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But I don't think the movie is directed in that

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way. Because it would have been completed before

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Donald Trump. You think he just does it to get

00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.320
more viewers? To like pacify people? No, I think

00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.740
the movie was filmed before Donald Trump had

00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:13.779
his second term and hopefully everybody thought

00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:16.299
that not Donald Trump was going to win. So the

00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:19.360
director's retroactively just making comments

00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.139
to... Well, no, I don't think his comments are

00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:26.389
invalid. No. I don't think he's making those

00:13:26.389 --> 00:13:28.570
comments for any other reason other than that

00:13:28.570 --> 00:13:31.450
they're true, or within the spirit of the Superman

00:13:31.450 --> 00:13:36.549
canon. Hi there. If you're still here, I'm very

00:13:36.549 --> 00:13:41.070
sorry about that long political tangent. It was

00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:47.649
related because I thought that art is being appropriated

00:13:47.649 --> 00:13:52.529
by fascist Nazis and claimed for themselves.

00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:55.940
I don't like that and I don't think anybody should

00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:59.679
like that. I'm vehemently against Nazis. That

00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:01.779
being said, we're about to start with the actual

00:14:01.779 --> 00:14:04.360
question, the relation between mental health

00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:10.019
and creativity. Please don't forget to subscribe,

00:14:10.460 --> 00:14:16.620
comment, share. You can follow us on YouTube

00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:22.059
at Ray Leo or Instagram, firefromheat or TikTok.

00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.659
Heat from fire. Enjoy the show. What was the

00:14:25.659 --> 00:14:28.799
original question? Creativity and mental health.

00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.600
So I've made a statement. I've gone off way on

00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:36.700
a tangent here about... It's because I'm trying

00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:39.080
to avoid talking about my own mental health.

00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.220
I think my mental health is fine. Creativity

00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:48.740
has taken a big part of kaleidoscope, actually.

00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.960
so far. The first episode, my perspective was,

00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.899
my creativity disappeared during high school.

00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.799
Right, you talked about this, yeah. And you know,

00:14:58.899 --> 00:15:02.960
I wouldn't have attributed it to mental health

00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.820
then, and I didn't. But I think that, yeah, part

00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:08.940
of it is definitely mental health. I think people

00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:12.500
are naturally creative, and when it becomes an

00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:15.220
issue of mental health, it's because people have

00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:17.960
been taught, you know, it's not worthwhile to

00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:23.019
be creative. for whatever reason and so you don't

00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:25.480
use it and you devalue it and then so in that

00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:28.419
respect you might become you know a little sad

00:15:28.419 --> 00:15:31.299
and a little miserable because you don't want

00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:33.379
to express yourself not everybody obviously it

00:15:33.379 --> 00:15:35.399
doesn't affect everybody but that's what I think

00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.000
I think that's kind of two sides of the same

00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:42.960
sort like either mental health being like a negative

00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.179
experience a poor mental health and not creating

00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:49.700
or using that as a way to create something else.

00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:52.720
Like I find myself, I'm most inclined to write

00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.580
songs, to write poetry when I'm feeling my worst.

00:15:55.779 --> 00:15:58.700
And it's actually some of my best work. A fucking

00:15:58.700 --> 00:16:02.480
horrifying and awful to read in the like heart

00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:06.120
wrenching sense, but some of my favourite pieces.

00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:09.899
Do I wish I could tap into that when I'm like

00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:14.659
not feeling low? Of course. It's, as you say,

00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.580
being given the space to freely express that.

00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:20.899
And I do think as well, as well as devaluing

00:16:20.899 --> 00:16:23.620
creativity, there is also still the pervading

00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.240
sense that if you are struggling with your mental

00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.159
health, you should be quiet and suffer in silence.

00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:30.879
Yes. A lot of people do not want to hear about

00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.980
it. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I also agree with

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:36.980
the idea that, yeah, when you're at your worst,

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.159
you might be the most creative because it does

00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.879
act, it is therapeutic and it's cathartic. That's

00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.360
the word cathartic, right? Yeah, when I used

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.419
to, when I was young and more emotional than

00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:52.600
I am now, though I'm pretty emotional, who do

00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.960
you know? Yeah, I would say the poetry I, because

00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.320
I like to write poetry, the poetry I enjoyed

00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:59.899
writing the most, or I thought was the best,

00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:04.059
was because I was, you know, in a... In a state

00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:08.180
of emotion. In a state of, what's the word when

00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:10.579
you're simping hard for girls that you love?

00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.190
I don't know. In love. Smitten. Smitten? I was

00:17:15.190 --> 00:17:17.529
beyond that. But like my poetry that I loved

00:17:17.529 --> 00:17:20.730
to write when I was young was the majority. Named.

00:17:21.069 --> 00:17:27.670
Named. Named. Hysterical. No. You never. But

00:17:27.670 --> 00:17:30.829
yeah, like definitely. And I couldn't recreate

00:17:30.829 --> 00:17:33.349
good poems when I was in a good mood, right?

00:17:33.569 --> 00:17:35.670
I agree with that. Maybe it's just, I mean, some

00:17:35.670 --> 00:17:37.809
people I think that's the case. Some people don't

00:17:37.809 --> 00:17:39.890
write poetry for that reason. This is hard for

00:17:39.890 --> 00:17:43.940
me. to think about now because I have always

00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:48.599
written from the time before when I was creative

00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.339
the poems that I wrote were from a dark place

00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:56.839
and I leveraged that emotion to write them but

00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:01.440
now I think like my bandwidth was fucked completely

00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:05.059
like my brain was way too busy doing other stuff

00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:08.220
that I you know for like 20 years I did nothing

00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:14.049
and then now I'm doing a shit tonne. But all

00:18:14.049 --> 00:18:17.089
of it is from a place of joy. And I'm looking

00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:20.970
down, I'm drawing from horrible emotions, but

00:18:20.970 --> 00:18:23.730
I'm not writing in a state of a bad emotion.

00:18:24.309 --> 00:18:26.450
So that's interesting to me. Would you argue

00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:30.410
that heightened positive emotion is still just

00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:32.230
like a heightened state? Because obviously mental

00:18:32.230 --> 00:18:35.190
health is like a spectrum. Lots of people...

00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:37.690
You use the phrase to just mean like ill mental

00:18:37.690 --> 00:18:40.809
health, but actually it's the there's both things

00:18:40.809 --> 00:18:42.970
Obviously, there's like a neutral but the positives

00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:45.410
and the negatives so like drawing on that strong

00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:49.109
emotion. Yeah for sure I think that strong emotion,

00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:52.109
but then again like the nameless ship the newest

00:18:52.109 --> 00:18:56.690
poem that I just finished It was it was the first

00:18:56.690 --> 00:18:59.690
poem I've ever said to myself I want to write

00:18:59.690 --> 00:19:04.529
a poem that evokes images of these CSS ship talks

00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:08.019
about Ubuntu and connects like action and existence.

00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.539
So those are mental health issues. And if you

00:19:11.539 --> 00:19:14.980
if you apply them personally, but I was like,

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:17.019
this is what I want to write. I thought about

00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:21.460
it for maybe two days. And then I was like, maybe

00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:24.819
not. And then I sat down and I just wrote it

00:19:24.819 --> 00:19:30.259
in in one sitting, which was like my feelings

00:19:30.259 --> 00:19:33.000
were flat, you know, like I was I wasn't in it's

00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.480
obviously not. apathetic to my own poetry, but

00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:41.359
I wasn't feeling a particularly strong emotion.

00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:43.420
Okay, interesting. Do you think there's sometimes

00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:46.119
a difference in how you approach your own personal

00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:48.720
writing in terms of like planning for a specific

00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.000
purpose? Because I do similar writing tasks in

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.579
where I'm like, I want to either use these words

00:19:54.579 --> 00:19:57.359
or focus on this topic. And when I write in that

00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:00.279
sense, it's still me, but it reads different.

00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.420
It's a different version of my voice. So I'm

00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:06.799
just wondering if that planning process changed

00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.819
anything for you? For this particular poem, no,

00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:12.839
because I was just walking around thinking about

00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.680
what I want to write and thinking about the story.

00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.400
There's another story that actually, when you're

00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.740
talking about voice, so there's another poem,

00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:23.019
the previous one that I wrote, that I wrote in

00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:25.599
a similar planning methodology. It's called The

00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.000
Book That Would Not Open and The Nameless Ship.

00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.799
Those two things are also kind of connected.

00:20:31.699 --> 00:20:35.759
And it's a lot of descriptive emotive imagery.

00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.420
And then it brings it into the physical where

00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:42.359
there's actual dialogue or the observer speaks.

00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.039
And then it closes with a final resolution. So

00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.339
that voice is quite similar for both of those

00:20:49.339 --> 00:20:51.339
poems. And the structure was very similar for

00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:53.680
my planning. But other poems, yeah, you're right.

00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:59.640
They're different. Some I write with, it's called

00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.390
the velvet labyrinth. It's a bunch of questions

00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:08.450
that you ask yourself. Like connect a wound with

00:21:08.450 --> 00:21:14.049
an adjective. Fevered constellation is another

00:21:14.049 --> 00:21:16.849
part. That's the title. And then you go through

00:21:16.849 --> 00:21:20.589
like a very structured format. You can make it

00:21:20.589 --> 00:21:23.289
elaborate. You can elaborate on each point or

00:21:23.289 --> 00:21:26.369
you can just write a couple for it. Anyway. then

00:21:26.369 --> 00:21:28.109
that's obviously a different voice. And then

00:21:28.109 --> 00:21:30.890
if you think about when I was smitten with someone,

00:21:30.930 --> 00:21:33.390
hard for me to think about because I think that

00:21:33.390 --> 00:21:37.269
the most, the poem that sticks into my mind the

00:21:37.269 --> 00:21:41.250
most, I was interested in the girl because of

00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:44.210
gender envy, not because of anything else. I

00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:46.849
wanted to be her more than I was in love with

00:21:46.849 --> 00:21:50.630
her. But the, okay, the point is I think that,

00:21:50.710 --> 00:21:54.950
and this is something I think is bad about creativity.

00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.019
or rather a true a person this is when I doubt

00:21:58.019 --> 00:21:59.819
a person's creativity maybe I'm wrong is that

00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:04.559
they have to depend on these kinds of like really

00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.099
emotional situations that's where the idea of

00:22:07.099 --> 00:22:10.160
the muse comes from right so like imagine having

00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.200
to depend on like your agony to turn out work

00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.700
and then I think that I think that's why mental

00:22:16.700 --> 00:22:19.720
health and creativity is so connected because

00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:25.880
it is a tool to help you overcome whatever pain

00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.539
you're going through. But the problem, or maybe

00:22:28.539 --> 00:22:31.160
the challenge happens for artists, the challenge

00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.039
for them is they don't recognize that and then

00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:38.119
so they try to, they wanna commodify their work,

00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:39.799
they wanna be successful, they wanna be an artist.

00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:42.900
And they don't have that agony to write and then

00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:44.880
it's kind of manufactured. Or maybe they start

00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.980
with agony and then it fades? There are, I think

00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:51.299
there are people who are creative and they can

00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:54.380
be creative. and they are like so intelligent

00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:57.480
and emotionally, I don't want to say emotionally

00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.119
stable, but like, how do you say it? Emotionally

00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:01.920
regulated. There you go, emotionally regulated.

00:23:02.019 --> 00:23:04.619
And they create. And then there's the other kind

00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:07.299
of people who can only create because of like

00:23:07.299 --> 00:23:09.519
that misery and agony. But I think what they

00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.779
need to recognize is they're using it as a tool

00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:15.900
to address, you know, some kind of mental challenges,

00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.450
problems, whatever. I can say, like, I'm not

00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:20.109
naturally, I don't think I'm naturally creative,

00:23:20.170 --> 00:23:23.049
but when I was, when I used to write in the past,

00:23:23.210 --> 00:23:25.869
it was all because I was angsty. Like a little

00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:28.170
scene kid. Not that I had the hair. Why aren't

00:23:28.170 --> 00:23:30.769
you turning on poetry right now? I think about,

00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:33.750
right? Like, I think, like, wow, I love the poems

00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:37.009
I wrote, but I don't have that kind of motivation

00:23:37.009 --> 00:23:39.329
for it. I don't have those people, because I

00:23:39.329 --> 00:23:40.930
don't have those people that, like, I'm, like,

00:23:41.009 --> 00:23:43.970
obsessed over. For me, the poetry was a tool.

00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:47.519
Little Luigi, it was a tool for Little Luigi.

00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:49.539
It was kind of dishonest when I wrote, you know?

00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:51.539
Because what it really was was me being like,

00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:53.039
I'm gonna write this poem and she's gonna fall

00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.799
in love with me. Kind of, kind of, kind of slimy.

00:23:56.099 --> 00:24:00.500
What a slimy thing. Shame. Shame on Little, Little

00:24:00.500 --> 00:24:03.319
Luigi. So bad. That's why I can't write, I think.

00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.259
Unless I'm like, maybe someday. Or there could

00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:08.759
be a myriad of reasons why I don't write, you

00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:12.359
know? Creativity could have been bred and shamed

00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.829
out of me, you know? In the world, because it's

00:24:15.829 --> 00:24:19.089
not practical, you know? I get my legs up on

00:24:19.089 --> 00:24:21.509
this couch. For me, as an adult, I'm just, you

00:24:21.509 --> 00:24:24.410
know, you go to work, you make money, and that's

00:24:24.410 --> 00:24:28.089
it. I can't reconcile just being creative for

00:24:28.089 --> 00:24:30.549
the sake of being creative. I find it really

00:24:30.549 --> 00:24:32.789
interesting when I speak to non -writers. Yeah.

00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:36.829
Because I have no choice but to write. Yeah.

00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:39.569
A poem starts in my head. And that's it, like.

00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:43.210
Yeah, I understand that. And there's no like,

00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:45.430
I guess like, yeah, I could ignore it. Like I

00:24:45.430 --> 00:24:50.190
could be like, no, not today. But like, I would

00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:52.529
say that almost some of my writing is involuntary,

00:24:52.809 --> 00:24:55.529
like to just need to get it out. Not even like

00:24:55.529 --> 00:24:58.789
all dark ones, some of them, you know. Yes. Yeah,

00:24:58.849 --> 00:25:00.750
yeah. Some of them positive, some of them love,

00:25:00.890 --> 00:25:02.809
some of them, you know, frustrations at the world

00:25:02.809 --> 00:25:06.240
because the world sucks. Sure. But. Yeah, they

00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.140
just form. So when I speak to people and they're

00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:11.640
like, oh, I'd have to sit and think about writing

00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:13.940
a poem. And I'm like, man, that's what I would

00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:17.019
do. No, I understand that because there was a

00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:19.759
time in my life when I was just motivated to

00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.680
write and I always wrote because I had ideas

00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:24.619
and I wanted to get them out there. And so I

00:25:24.619 --> 00:25:27.440
wrote all the time about just a myriad of topics.

00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.559
But now it just doesn't happen. And I'm just,

00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.660
I don't know, old and adulty. I just want to...

00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:35.519
make a humble living. I don't know, that kind

00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:38.579
of urge is not there. Maybe I'll get it back

00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:41.500
someday. I'm really old, a lot of poets do that.

00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:44.079
Do you like any other forms of creativity? Like

00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:48.920
do you like draw or like make other things? Okay,

00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:51.559
so like I loved, again, a long, long time ago,

00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.279
before this didn't sound bad, before I came to

00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:56.440
China to work, you know, and started my career

00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:01.420
here, you know, cooking, writing, you know, about

00:26:02.040 --> 00:26:06.500
whatever, restaurants, writing just like academic

00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:08.759
think pieces. Like those are my forms of creativity.

00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:10.779
When I was younger, I liked theater and acting

00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:12.460
and I worked in theater and stuff like that.

00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.440
But then when I just came here and had to like,

00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.500
like I said, be an adult, I guess, you know,

00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:19.819
you just get up, go to work, manage your money,

00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:25.460
et cetera. So those, those like drives are gone

00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:29.740
in some respect. And I think objectively it is

00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:31.910
kind of sad. but I just don't have that drive

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:33.910
anymore, it's disappeared. But there are some

00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:35.609
things, I think it manifests in different ways,

00:26:35.750 --> 00:26:37.029
so like we're creative in different ways, like

00:26:37.029 --> 00:26:41.130
I like, this sounds lame, like me and my houseplants,

00:26:41.309 --> 00:26:43.430
like I like my houseplants, I like them a lot,

00:26:43.490 --> 00:26:46.730
I like to grow them. We still have, we still

00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:49.549
have like these connections to like be creative

00:26:49.549 --> 00:26:54.049
and create, they might just not be as uh like

00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:57.650
overt maybe let's say. I think that One of your,

00:26:57.730 --> 00:27:00.769
one of the expressions of creativity that I have

00:27:00.769 --> 00:27:06.109
seen from you. Arguing. It's an art form. You

00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:10.069
spent today, you spent like 30 minutes on your

00:27:10.069 --> 00:27:12.710
own volition. More than that, making sure that

00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:16.859
just that one... Was in the right spot. Yeah,

00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:22.380
I do like... That's not neuroticism, that's creativity,

00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.380
I think. It's focused on the shot and placement.

00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:30.079
Right, yeah, well that's true. Yeah, that's creativity.

00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:33.819
That's not superficial at all. I think it's kind

00:27:33.819 --> 00:27:36.039
of superficial. Yeah, I agree, that's the kind

00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:38.259
of creativity. I think what you mean is that

00:27:38.259 --> 00:27:39.980
it's not necessarily that it's superficial, but

00:27:39.980 --> 00:27:43.230
it's not like... what society, brands and ties

00:27:43.230 --> 00:27:46.130
in a bow as what creativity is, which is kind

00:27:46.130 --> 00:27:48.190
of part of the problem. Not overtly, yeah, there's

00:27:48.190 --> 00:27:51.250
this kind of, it's weird because that is, that

00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:54.089
what I was doing I think is probably one of the

00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:56.410
most important kinds of creativity that people

00:27:56.410 --> 00:27:59.289
don't pay attention to because it's so, it's

00:27:59.289 --> 00:28:02.150
so pervasive and like natural. It orbits around

00:28:02.150 --> 00:28:06.190
like how, we're such a specular society now because

00:28:06.190 --> 00:28:09.269
of, you know, social media, YouTube, all these

00:28:09.269 --> 00:28:12.160
things are planned. how they set up, how everything's

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.059
staged, but it's in the background and people

00:28:14.059 --> 00:28:17.000
don't really pay attention to it unless it's

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.500
so horrendous, it kind of takes you out of the

00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.559
experience, right? And we still have these ideas

00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:28.140
of the creative as being this kind of cliche

00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:32.039
caricature of an artist. That makes sense? Exactly,

00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:36.920
yeah. It's like the more practical creative things

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.970
we think, they're so normalized. we don't pay

00:28:39.970 --> 00:28:42.609
attention to them as being. What about authenticity,

00:28:42.990 --> 00:28:46.809
then? Does it exist within our society right

00:28:46.809 --> 00:28:49.630
now? And the reason I ask this is because, like,

00:28:49.630 --> 00:28:52.970
going back to high school, one of the... In order

00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:59.529
to graduate English, we had to write a confrontational

00:28:59.529 --> 00:29:04.170
speech. And mine was, originality is non -existent.

00:29:04.349 --> 00:29:08.240
Only authenticity remains. And my opinion or

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:11.000
definition of authenticity was like the authentic

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:16.480
idea, the root of something. For example, even

00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:19.460
if you look at binoculars, it's just an augmentation

00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:24.319
of sight, right? And sight is the authentic thing

00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.339
that you're playing with. And there's nothing

00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:29.880
original that exists anymore. So, but now we

00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.200
like from a different perspective of authenticity,

00:29:32.619 --> 00:29:35.990
is there authentic social media? Because I would

00:29:35.990 --> 00:29:39.009
like to think that this is authentic, even though

00:29:39.009 --> 00:29:42.910
there are elements of staging. Okay. I have kind

00:29:42.910 --> 00:29:46.410
of a gripe with the buzzword of authenticity.

00:29:46.589 --> 00:29:49.730
I don't like it. I don't like... When people

00:29:49.730 --> 00:29:51.210
say, like, I'm being authentic, I don't know.

00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.690
I'm always skeptical of that. I don't know what

00:29:53.690 --> 00:29:57.089
it is. Authentic right now, I think that's a

00:29:57.089 --> 00:30:00.009
flag moment. Same with people calling themselves

00:30:00.009 --> 00:30:03.230
woke. Woke. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you say you are

00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:06.819
woke, you are not woke. You're performing. It's

00:30:06.819 --> 00:30:08.980
a performance. We have to really define these

00:30:08.980 --> 00:30:11.039
terms though. I don't even think people can define

00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.079
what woke is and I don't even want to try and

00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:15.359
give it a definition right now. Okay, I'll do

00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:17.880
it. Okay, go for it. You guys can tell me how

00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:23.519
I do. Woke comes from the 1930s. Black American

00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:30.180
culture. And it was used to identify or it was

00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:34.480
used to identify people who were able to highlight

00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.839
and understand the systemic oppressions that

00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:42.339
existed within their society and around their

00:30:42.339 --> 00:30:45.359
culture. Those were work people. And since then,

00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:48.859
it has been appropriated by... I don't want to

00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:55.059
say Democrat because... No. Left people on the

00:30:55.059 --> 00:31:00.190
left? People on the left. To... be a much broader

00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:03.430
sense of outside of only black culture in America,

00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:08.670
like all systems of oppression, all systemic

00:31:08.670 --> 00:31:13.890
snuffings of freedom in a way. And then I think

00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:17.329
that some people on the very far left maybe took

00:31:17.329 --> 00:31:20.490
some elements of being woke a little bit too

00:31:20.490 --> 00:31:25.130
far too quickly. And that's a very touchy thing

00:31:25.130 --> 00:31:28.700
because I'm struggling with that. with my own

00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:31.319
opinion on that right now but then what happened

00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:34.819
is someone on the right with enough influence

00:31:34.819 --> 00:31:37.920
became so offended by this one person standing

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.779
up for their rights and trying to highlight something

00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:43.779
and there was such a disconnect of understanding

00:31:43.779 --> 00:31:47.339
that the right appropriated woke as an insult

00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:52.119
and did what and now we're stuck with with this

00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.339
rhetoric that is happening today and you get

00:31:55.339 --> 00:31:58.299
truly woke people I think there's three of them

00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:02.299
sitting in this room. But then you get people

00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:06.039
that are being performative in their statements.

00:32:06.099 --> 00:32:10.019
Right. Sure. And disingenuous. And then you get

00:32:10.019 --> 00:32:12.440
people on the right trying to insult us. Hard

00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.079
idea. I'm glad that you at least had like the

00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.599
origins correct. Because I was like, oh, please

00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.339
don't make me school you on the origins of the

00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:22.339
word and why I'm not OK with it. So kudos. OK.

00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:27.619
Proud of that. You said appropriated. I would

00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:31.279
say from the start it was misappropriated. It's

00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:33.680
a word that was taken by people who it was never

00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.460
intended for. And I think that's part of my issue

00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:43.000
with it. I am all for people. Cross -culture

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.680
sharing is fantastic when it's a sharing. But

00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:51.339
time and time again, people who are white, Caucasian,

00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.190
however we want to say it, have... taken things

00:32:54.190 --> 00:32:57.490
from people of colour for their own purpose and

00:32:57.490 --> 00:33:00.410
I feel like this is exactly what what the word

00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:03.190
was used for you know taking something that wasn't

00:33:03.190 --> 00:33:06.349
originally ours to be like hey I'm so cool I'm

00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:08.950
so down with the peeps and actually not really

00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:10.890
understanding even the origins the amount of

00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:12.529
people who don't know where the word came from

00:33:12.529 --> 00:33:15.089
what it was originally intended for and I just

00:33:15.089 --> 00:33:18.450
think well how can you possibly embody a word

00:33:18.450 --> 00:33:20.410
if you don't know if you don't know what's come

00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:22.920
before it And I think that's the issue that I

00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:24.180
take with it. So I think you're right in saying

00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:26.640
that there are certain buzzwords that actually

00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.819
get my heckles up a little bit as well, because

00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:31.039
I'm a bit like, but what do we even mean by that?

00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.599
Hashtag a token word that we can throw in that

00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:42.539
will get ourselves views. Back to the originality

00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.220
versus authenticity. I see what you mean in that

00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:48.799
actually. Everything is a replication in some...

00:33:48.859 --> 00:33:52.059
in some way which you know is inevitable when

00:33:52.059 --> 00:33:54.259
the world has existed for this long. I think

00:33:54.259 --> 00:33:56.319
back to music quite a lot when I have discussions

00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.559
about originality because there's what like 16

00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:00.880
notes and whenever people are like oh this has

00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.359
the same chord progression I can play 24 songs

00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:06.940
that rely on c e g so you know there's there

00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:10.179
are you know certain limitations in that you

00:34:10.179 --> 00:34:13.019
know until we create something new and that is

00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:14.980
an argument of itself do we ever really create

00:34:14.980 --> 00:34:17.460
something new? you know if we think of AI was

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:20.000
it created or was it just did we discover it

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:23.400
so you know there's there's so many there's so

00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:25.420
many arguments to say that yes actually nothing

00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:29.699
is in and of itself original I think that the

00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:33.900
kind of part of your authenticity is with being

00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:38.539
original with the material I think that's phrasing

00:34:38.539 --> 00:34:40.420
I feel a bit more comfortable with than like

00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:47.369
authentic okay fair enough I've had this conversation

00:34:47.369 --> 00:34:50.710
with a lot of people and they're synonymous.

00:34:50.909 --> 00:34:54.409
Two words, originality and authenticity. I would

00:34:54.409 --> 00:34:59.349
say the lexicon is quite different because original

00:34:59.349 --> 00:35:02.670
is to do with the origins of something and how

00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:06.690
it was created. Whereas authenticity is more

00:35:06.690 --> 00:35:11.389
about what you've done, who you are. Honesty?

00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.400
Yeah, see that's why they're there's such it's

00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.119
such a difficult turn can you be original and

00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:21.659
inauthentic oh You create something you still

00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:25.659
be a disingenuous person That thing is it is

00:35:25.659 --> 00:35:28.440
it an authentic thing? This is a very because

00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.440
authenticity is around the truth of something

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:33.960
right like is it is it what it claims to be I

00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.300
don't know that's the that's the problem with

00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:40.760
the word is that so many people define it in

00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:42.639
certain ways, in certain contexts. So we could

00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:44.139
very well say, this is what it means in this

00:35:44.139 --> 00:35:49.300
context for us. And... Greatest. But for me,

00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:51.420
I think like it seems like it seems so because

00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:56.039
everyone's trying to define it as something specific.

00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:59.010
And that's why I'm kind of just like, eh. Because

00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:01.369
words have multiple meanings in different contexts,

00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:03.789
so authentic or authenticity is definitely one.

00:36:04.090 --> 00:36:07.210
Trust me, I've had this conversation about the

00:36:07.210 --> 00:36:10.030
meanings of our word quite a lot. Right, but

00:36:10.030 --> 00:36:13.070
usually how we're looking at it is I guess in

00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:15.650
like a kind of academic context, which I just

00:36:15.650 --> 00:36:18.769
can't, I don't think I have the capacity to really

00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:21.989
pin down. I think that words should probably

00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:25.010
somewhat, never mind, I don't want to say that.

00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:32.079
Now I want to know. Scandalous. Maybe words should

00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:39.300
be updated more often with more definitions or

00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:42.340
there should be a progression of definitional

00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:45.420
updates within a dictionary. I think it's to

00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:47.059
do with what someone does with the word, isn't

00:36:47.059 --> 00:36:51.460
it? There's how many people on this board with

00:36:51.460 --> 00:36:53.659
multiple different thoughts, feelings and wonders.

00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:59.849
they're going to, you know, human nature is to

00:36:59.849 --> 00:37:01.969
make sense of things in a way that we can relate

00:37:01.969 --> 00:37:05.769
to. By categorizing, right? And everyone's category

00:37:05.769 --> 00:37:07.510
is going to be different because everyone's lived

00:37:07.510 --> 00:37:09.170
experience is different, their heritage, their

00:37:09.170 --> 00:37:10.429
culture, where they live, where they're coming

00:37:10.429 --> 00:37:13.050
from, where they're going, etc. So to be able

00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:16.650
to find, like, for subjective terms, there isn't

00:37:16.650 --> 00:37:18.429
going to be like a black and white, this is what

00:37:18.429 --> 00:37:21.510
it is, because everyone's experience is so different.

00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:24.800
Yeah. And anything outside of objective science

00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:29.679
is subjective. And even objective science is

00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:35.519
logical. Mass. Well done, mass. That's true.

00:37:36.019 --> 00:37:40.480
Yeah, so I think it's just, you know, the word.

00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:47.230
Morality, if you're a Christian. Joking. Good.

00:37:48.170 --> 00:37:49.710
Yeah, but again, these things are so hard to

00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:52.829
pin down because it depends on so many, you know,

00:37:52.909 --> 00:37:55.590
groups of people making an argument for something

00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:58.510
and using it as a tool to get others to understand

00:37:58.510 --> 00:38:01.590
it. That's how I look at it. So that's why for

00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:03.969
me, authenticity. Oh, I never really liked that

00:38:03.969 --> 00:38:08.050
word. And there was a period maybe 10 or 15 years

00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:11.789
ago when it was so overused that people were

00:38:11.789 --> 00:38:14.150
kind of like, what does it really mean? And so

00:38:14.150 --> 00:38:16.539
now I don't even I just stay away from it. which

00:38:16.539 --> 00:38:20.179
is, it's not very good of me to do, but, you

00:38:20.179 --> 00:38:23.500
know, I can think of in education when they say,

00:38:23.500 --> 00:38:26.039
you know, they want, you have to use unauthentic

00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.920
text for the students and that has a very specific

00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.719
meaning in the context of education. Okay, so

00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.079
I asked this question based on the art and the

00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:39.079
performance of... Okay, the reason I asked this

00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:42.340
question was because you mentioned social media...

00:38:42.889 --> 00:38:46.429
and the way that everything is staged. And then

00:38:46.429 --> 00:38:48.869
I said, well, is it authentic or is it original?

00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:51.289
And really the reason I ask those questions is

00:38:51.289 --> 00:38:53.750
to bring it back to how does that affect the

00:38:53.750 --> 00:38:56.389
mental health of viewers? Because we spoke about

00:38:56.389 --> 00:38:58.590
it before as well, and I mentioned the social

00:38:58.590 --> 00:39:01.210
bubbles that we put ourselves into through social

00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:04.650
media. Where nobody wants to post bad things.

00:39:04.949 --> 00:39:07.590
Nobody wants to talk about mental health issues.

00:39:07.989 --> 00:39:10.530
Nobody wants to say how sad they are online.

00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:12.559
I think a lot of people do. Now that you say

00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:16.179
that, I think that's true too. But for the vast

00:39:16.179 --> 00:39:20.039
majority of social media posts, it's done to

00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:24.280
make people look good. I would say that the people

00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:27.440
who do do it, it is kind of performative, and

00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.920
I'm always skeptical of someone putting that

00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.099
part of their life on social media. Is that a

00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:35.659
problem? I think it is problematic, yeah. What

00:39:35.659 --> 00:39:37.519
do you think, or the fact that they put it on?

00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:39.469
It depends why they're doing it. If it's like

00:39:39.469 --> 00:39:41.710
a cry for help, then it's one thing. But I think

00:39:41.710 --> 00:39:43.750
for the most part, it's they want a bunch of

00:39:43.750 --> 00:39:46.250
clicks. They want, you know, a million views.

00:39:46.590 --> 00:39:49.889
They want to monetize themselves. So when I,

00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:52.190
this is my opinion is when I see things like

00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:56.070
that, I think they're not really being honest.

00:39:56.369 --> 00:39:58.550
I could be wrong. I think it depends on the context

00:39:58.550 --> 00:40:00.510
of which they've posted as well. You know, if

00:40:00.510 --> 00:40:04.739
the rest of their content is... not of that way,

00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:07.320
and then they post like a singular post of them

00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.000
crying or saying that they're really struggling.

00:40:10.340 --> 00:40:13.380
Why do that? That I would struggle with. I mean,

00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:15.400
I follow quite a few accounts that are, you know,

00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:18.699
based on mental health or, you know, shadow work

00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:20.639
growth, all that type of stuff, which actually

00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:23.539
regularly there are creators, you know, exploring

00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:26.579
the worst sides of, you know, being neuro spicy,

00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:29.119
having a specific mental health condition, etc.

00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.980
So like, in that context, it doesn't feel out

00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:34.510
of place and therefore There's very little skepticism.

00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:37.369
Right, that's one thing. Those are tools to help

00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:39.210
people with mental issues. But it's the person

00:40:39.210 --> 00:40:42.170
who just films himself crying out of nowhere.

00:40:42.550 --> 00:40:45.429
You have to wonder, are you really in pain? Because

00:40:45.429 --> 00:40:48.449
you made the conscious choice to turn on your

00:40:48.449 --> 00:40:51.469
phone and cry, and then upload it. So I don't

00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:56.070
know if that's really honest. I can see... Okay,

00:40:56.309 --> 00:40:59.670
that connection and that question, I can see

00:40:59.670 --> 00:41:02.110
the validity of it. Because I would think...

00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.039
I've often, now, I'm trying to post more and

00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:09.159
I'm trying to gain traction. I want to be paid

00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:11.780
for putting things online. But then I see some

00:41:11.780 --> 00:41:14.179
of the things that people post and I think, how

00:41:14.179 --> 00:41:18.099
could I do that? And then you see 10 ,000 people

00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:21.320
are doing the trend. And then I'm like, well,

00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:25.239
fuck that shit. I don't want that. But it's tempting.

00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:29.349
And I can see how then my content can be... degraded

00:41:29.349 --> 00:41:33.289
into fucking fluff pieces about me opening my

00:41:33.289 --> 00:41:38.869
eye. Okay. So with that in mind, are we recognizing

00:41:38.869 --> 00:41:43.010
that we are entertaining first? Does it have

00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:46.250
to be honest if it's just for entertainment?

00:41:46.650 --> 00:41:51.550
Or is it honest because it is just entertainment?

00:41:51.730 --> 00:41:54.650
But this is what I want to say. I think that

00:41:54.650 --> 00:41:58.039
talking about and Posting on social media and

00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:01.219
receiving an empathetic response from people

00:42:01.219 --> 00:42:05.340
should be normalized. It shouldn't be a bad thing

00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:08.980
for someone to share their pain. No. And they

00:42:08.980 --> 00:42:11.539
shouldn't be necessarily seen as disingenuous.

00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:17.719
I think that questions are fair. If you've posted

00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:20.599
yourself just randomly crying with no reason,

00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.019
and if you're posting yourself, nobody plans

00:42:23.019 --> 00:42:26.360
to cry. So how are you filming your tears? I

00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:27.980
think that's the thing. For me, it all comes

00:42:27.980 --> 00:42:32.019
down to what feels like the intent. So if someone

00:42:32.019 --> 00:42:35.340
is, you know, sharing themselves crying or sharing

00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:38.059
themselves, like in a really bad way, having

00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:41.119
a panic attack, dealing with suicidal idealisation,

00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:47.360
to share with the intent of, you know, education,

00:42:47.619 --> 00:42:50.199
outsourced community, that makes sense to me.

00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.849
But that would all... be evident in the content

00:42:53.849 --> 00:42:58.789
and the context. All of the creators that I follow

00:42:58.789 --> 00:43:01.130
would never just have a post, for example, that

00:43:01.130 --> 00:43:02.869
has something that could be triggering. There's

00:43:02.869 --> 00:43:05.030
always a cover. There's always a content or a

00:43:05.030 --> 00:43:08.829
trigger warning. And for me, that feels very

00:43:08.829 --> 00:43:12.190
intentional and I can see the purpose of them

00:43:12.190 --> 00:43:15.090
sharing that. And I think that's what makes me

00:43:15.090 --> 00:43:18.670
buy into it a little bit more. So I think the

00:43:18.670 --> 00:43:21.889
posts that seem disingenuous or like they're

00:43:21.889 --> 00:43:24.750
just for attention or traction tend to not have

00:43:24.750 --> 00:43:28.449
that. The intent of them just wanting attention

00:43:28.449 --> 00:43:31.289
or wanting traction I think comes across quite

00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:33.309
clearly for someone who does engage with that

00:43:33.309 --> 00:43:36.449
type of content. So I think that's why for quite

00:43:36.449 --> 00:43:38.590
a few people it probably doesn't land very well.

00:43:39.550 --> 00:43:43.429
This comes into my topic that I wanted to talk

00:43:43.429 --> 00:43:48.460
about. Which is spicier. I try to bring in the

00:43:48.460 --> 00:43:53.860
lightheartedness. It's about consent. And it's

00:43:53.860 --> 00:44:00.360
about fucking. And sex. And sex positivity. And

00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.219
my perspective is consent isn't spoken about

00:44:04.219 --> 00:44:09.340
enough outside of the idea that you know through

00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:16.440
essay. And then it's too late. consent feels

00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:22.159
like rules but really it's a playpen because

00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.780
you set up the rules and you have your area for

00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:28.820
consent and that's how it should be and everybody

00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:31.320
should be clear on that and sometimes you get

00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.280
into a position where you tell someone okay i

00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.320
can see what you want this is what i need and

00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:39.619
then suddenly they disappear well then that's

00:44:39.619 --> 00:44:42.400
a problem i think 99 % of people don't understand

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.400
what consent is No, I would agree with that.

00:44:45.739 --> 00:44:47.539
I also think as well, you know, when we're here

00:44:47.539 --> 00:44:49.159
saying that consent isn't spoken about enough,

00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:52.019
the fact that consent is only spoken about within

00:44:52.019 --> 00:44:55.519
a sexualised way as well is just wild. And that

00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:58.519
is partly, partly due to the world that we live

00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:00.579
in, you know, trying to create people that are

00:45:00.579 --> 00:45:02.960
not autonomous, rethinking people, because, you

00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.579
know, that is the intention of this world. You

00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:08.579
know, children, for example, should be taught

00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:10.860
that they have consent, they have bodily consent

00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:15.079
of what? people do. So I have quite a few spicy

00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:19.800
discussions with friends when I arrive and they're

00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:22.099
like, oh, give Jess a hug. And the kid clearly

00:45:22.099 --> 00:45:24.300
doesn't want to. And I've actually lost the best

00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:26.159
friend over this. I hadn't seen my best friend

00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.699
for about two years. We visited with their son,

00:45:29.739 --> 00:45:32.599
who is highly autistic, hadn't seen me for two

00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:34.860
years, probably didn't recognize who I was, which

00:45:34.860 --> 00:45:38.139
is absolutely understandable. And my friend tried

00:45:38.139 --> 00:45:40.809
to force them to give me a hug. And instantly

00:45:40.809 --> 00:45:42.630
I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's all

00:45:42.630 --> 00:45:46.539
good. It's all good. You're a good bud. And yeah,

00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:48.960
my friend was really mad about it. And I tried

00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:50.800
to have a conversation with them to be like,

00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:54.059
yo, this little human has bodily autonomy. You

00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:55.840
know, you should be teaching them that actually,

00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:58.280
they don't have to be touched if they're saying

00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:00.619
no, they need to understand the value of their

00:46:00.619 --> 00:46:02.280
no. And actually, I don't think that this is

00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:03.900
something that we're teaching children. So of

00:46:03.900 --> 00:46:05.719
course then, how do we have the language? How

00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:07.440
do we have the understanding to then have it

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:11.500
within a sexualized day? Yes, really, really

00:46:11.500 --> 00:46:15.809
well. Start young. Let's go. I've never thought

00:46:15.809 --> 00:46:19.429
about it from the perspective of, yeah, children

00:46:19.429 --> 00:46:22.050
and bodily autonomy and things like that. Like

00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:24.409
something as innocent as, you know, saying, oh,

00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:27.690
go hug your aunt. But it's a very good point.

00:46:28.150 --> 00:46:31.869
Yeah. That's part of why now suddenly it's not

00:46:31.869 --> 00:46:34.929
fun anymore. Now it's great. Now you gotta take

00:46:34.929 --> 00:46:38.789
it serious. Sorry. No, it's fair because, OK,

00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:40.889
if this is where it needs to go, it needs to

00:46:40.889 --> 00:46:45.570
go here. Yeah. Because this question, this statement

00:46:45.570 --> 00:46:49.570
directly goes into the consent of a woman saying,

00:46:50.050 --> 00:46:53.449
I don't consent to having this child that is

00:46:53.449 --> 00:46:56.110
growing inside me. And then you have people who

00:46:56.110 --> 00:46:59.309
don't understand consent and think that that

00:46:59.309 --> 00:47:02.449
woman must now be forced to have that child.

00:47:04.219 --> 00:47:06.860
Okay, so when we were driving over here, I told

00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:10.860
Luigi what my topic was, and I asked him, define

00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:13.539
consent in three words. And I couldn't do it.

00:47:13.659 --> 00:47:15.699
Couldn't you? Because I'm reading a book on consent,

00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:19.059
actually, and it's so complicated of a topic

00:47:19.059 --> 00:47:22.179
that I'm just overthinking, and I just can't

00:47:22.179 --> 00:47:24.260
really put it in three words. I can give you

00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:25.840
three words. Okay, wait, let's see what her three

00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:27.619
words are. Let's see if they're the same as mine.

00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:32.440
Do you want to write them down? Okay. Originally,

00:47:32.619 --> 00:47:36.820
it was four words, but it can be three. Just

00:47:36.820 --> 00:47:40.099
slightly less. Well done. Here we go. That was

00:47:40.099 --> 00:47:44.519
one. The other one was... It's three words. It's

00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:49.019
four words. OK. Sorry. Cheat. Four words. Maybe

00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:50.739
there's another one. I don't remember. Is that

00:47:50.739 --> 00:47:55.039
the one? Yeah. OK, go. OK. Enthusiastic. Oh,

00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:59.860
that was it. Reversible. Yes. I said retractable.

00:48:00.429 --> 00:48:03.710
So mutual, freely given, or enthusiastically

00:48:03.710 --> 00:48:06.269
given, and retractable at any point. Talk about

00:48:06.269 --> 00:48:08.170
this at some point. So there's something that

00:48:08.170 --> 00:48:10.730
already says this about consent? BDSM. Yeah.

00:48:11.769 --> 00:48:14.250
Whenever anyone says to me, how do you know so

00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:17.110
much about sex and consent, because I do consent

00:48:17.110 --> 00:48:22.690
workshops, BDSM has taught me more about what

00:48:22.690 --> 00:48:25.809
I have the ability to say I want or not want

00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.239
than anything else in my life. Right. As well

00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:31.280
as giving me the tools to start navigating how

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.940
to do that, which, you know, as a people -pleasing

00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:36.940
little neuro -spicy bean. Sure. Not my biggest

00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:42.380
skill. Right. So yeah, I think that gives a certain

00:48:42.380 --> 00:48:45.079
lens to looking at consent. And it's also, I

00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:48.659
think, what a lot of the, you know, the typical

00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:51.360
tropes that you hear about when, you know, there

00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:53.460
are lots of people who sexually assault someone

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:55.239
and they do not realize that they are sexually

00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:58.059
assaulting them. Yeah. I think that's almost

00:48:58.059 --> 00:49:01.199
sadder than all of the sexual assaults coming

00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:03.820
from people that knew. But, you know, the, oh,

00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:08.579
but they said yes. Were they drunk? Were they

00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:10.679
enthusiastic? Did you pressure them? Were they

00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:15.420
coerced? Without having those nuanced understandings

00:49:15.420 --> 00:49:19.179
of that enthusiasticness, that being able to

00:49:19.179 --> 00:49:21.980
reverse it, you know, the whole thing of, oh

00:49:21.980 --> 00:49:24.559
well. They said that, like, they were thinking

00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:26.000
about this. It's like, yeah, but did they say

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.360
in this specific moment, I want you to do text

00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:33.840
to me? For me, in all of my lessons, when I teach

00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:36.460
this with younger people, it always brings me

00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:38.480
back to the tea video. I don't know if you've

00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.860
seen it, but I absolutely love it. Explain it.

00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:44.159
Essentially, like, there's a couple of different

00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:46.380
things. You know, if someone says they'd like

00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:48.320
to come over for tea, and then they change their

00:49:48.320 --> 00:49:50.320
mind and they want something else to drink, that's

00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:53.059
OK. don't try and pour it down their throat.

00:49:53.539 --> 00:49:56.119
If someone says they want tea and then they fall

00:49:56.119 --> 00:49:59.360
asleep, you know, don't choke them on it. And

00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:02.480
it's all these type of little scenarios of how,

00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:05.559
you know, someone can revoke their consent that

00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:08.019
they've given and actually like, don't be a dick

00:50:08.019 --> 00:50:10.739
about it. But it's such a good video. That is,

00:50:10.900 --> 00:50:13.059
it's funny you bring that up because that is

00:50:13.059 --> 00:50:16.119
in the book I'm reading. I've been reading this

00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:20.360
book for so long in bits and one of the... One

00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:23.320
of the parts is consent is not like blah blah

00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:25.239
blah tee. Gotta find out what it's called. Give

00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:27.500
me a second, folks. Talk amongst yourselves.

00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:32.659
What is it called? So I've been approached by

00:50:32.659 --> 00:50:38.780
people who claim to be experienced mistresses

00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:45.280
or whatever, sadists. And they're just not. Because

00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:48.579
they don't even begin to understand consent.

00:50:50.819 --> 00:50:53.219
It's crazy to me. And that's why I think that's

00:50:53.219 --> 00:50:56.300
why a lot of these... Oh, that's what it's called.

00:50:56.579 --> 00:50:58.480
The Joy of Consent. That's what I'm reading.

00:50:58.900 --> 00:51:02.539
Cool. By French thinker Néanone Garcia. That's

00:51:02.539 --> 00:51:08.059
her name. But that's why, yeah. It's a complicated

00:51:08.059 --> 00:51:10.880
topic, obviously. There's like the superficial

00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:12.900
aspects of it, which is like, you know, asking

00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:16.320
permission and knowing how to interpret it. Well,

00:51:16.500 --> 00:51:19.000
maybe that's kind of cut and dry then. you know,

00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:22.780
as a concept, as an idea. Any questions? What,

00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:26.000
consent? My topic? I think people's understanding

00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:28.440
of it isn't, though, because, you know, we've

00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:32.539
seen time and time again, you know, the stats

00:51:32.539 --> 00:51:38.199
on, you know, female SA are devastatingly high.

00:51:38.500 --> 00:51:42.239
Yeah. And when you look at, you know, conversations

00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:46.880
like, you know, a bear or a man, the backlash

00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:51.699
of that. And, you know, the lack of understanding

00:51:51.699 --> 00:51:55.280
of just how pervasive the, I guess, the fear

00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.559
of non -consensual activity through lived experiences,

00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.840
particularly for a woman or female -presenting

00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:05.019
person, is, you know, it's wild. But actually

00:52:05.019 --> 00:52:09.980
so many don't understand the nuances about it.

00:52:10.579 --> 00:52:13.900
Yeah. How can we fix it? How can it be fixed?

00:52:14.019 --> 00:52:17.670
What's needed? to fix the world. I think that

00:52:17.670 --> 00:52:22.309
beyond starting younger and discussing consent

00:52:22.309 --> 00:52:27.329
within a wider frame and a wider context, even

00:52:27.329 --> 00:52:31.909
using the word more, consent has always been

00:52:31.909 --> 00:52:34.210
made to feel like a dirty word, something that

00:52:34.210 --> 00:52:37.070
shouldn't be spoken about, similar for some groups,

00:52:37.250 --> 00:52:42.150
even just discussing sex. And actually, I...

00:52:42.190 --> 00:52:46.789
If a friend shares a picture with me that I haven't

00:52:46.789 --> 00:52:49.150
consented to see, I will actively use that word.

00:52:49.469 --> 00:52:51.309
And yes, it causes arguments and it makes people

00:52:51.309 --> 00:52:54.309
uncomfortable. But if someone, for example, forwards

00:52:54.309 --> 00:52:58.389
me a picture of one of their partners, which

00:52:58.389 --> 00:53:02.210
I'm polyamorous, I have had that happen, to be

00:53:02.210 --> 00:53:05.150
like, yo, A, I don't consent to seeing that.

00:53:05.369 --> 00:53:07.780
B, do you have consent to share it? you know,

00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:10.460
normalizing use of that word. And I think unfortunately

00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:13.260
a lot of it comes down to is just that lots of

00:53:13.260 --> 00:53:15.940
humans do not treat other humans decently. And

00:53:15.940 --> 00:53:19.519
that's something that's cultivated. That's not

00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:21.900
something that, you know, we are asked to focus

00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.559
on when we are younger, when we're teens. That's

00:53:24.559 --> 00:53:26.260
something that's almost bred out of us because

00:53:26.260 --> 00:53:31.280
if we are willing to use and abuse each other,

00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.599
then the higher -ups get more out of us. Do you

00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:39.090
think there's... Like confusion between Because

00:53:39.090 --> 00:53:41.289
I hear what I hear how you're using consent the

00:53:41.289 --> 00:53:44.150
word But do you think people consider consent

00:53:44.150 --> 00:53:46.949
and permission interchangeable words or they

00:53:46.949 --> 00:53:49.389
very different things like if I said I don't

00:53:49.389 --> 00:53:52.449
give you permission to Let me you know to show

00:53:52.449 --> 00:53:54.929
me that could it be the same as saying I don't

00:53:54.929 --> 00:53:57.630
give consent. I think it's similar Yeah, but

00:53:57.630 --> 00:53:59.690
I think in in the world that we live in we're

00:53:59.690 --> 00:54:06.519
almost Courage to you know to not say when someone's

00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:08.900
done something that upsets us, to kind of just

00:54:08.900 --> 00:54:11.079
let things go, to have clearer boundaries. So

00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:13.800
I think even things like permission is still,

00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.059
you know, something that most people would link

00:54:17.059 --> 00:54:19.960
to like, you know, a permission form for something

00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:22.400
specific, et cetera, as opposed to, you know,

00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.179
something that should guide your daily actions.

00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:29.159
Right, yeah. Yeah. Deep thoughts. Like, I'm still

00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:35.960
dealing with a lot of... Sometimes I... I think

00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:40.840
the reason that this is such a touchy topic for

00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:45.219
people is it directly calls into question every

00:54:45.219 --> 00:54:47.480
single action that they've ever done in their

00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:53.019
life. And there are going to be times in everybody's

00:54:53.019 --> 00:54:56.280
life where they have violated consent in some

00:54:56.280 --> 00:55:00.360
way. It's not going to relate to necessarily...

00:55:00.990 --> 00:55:04.949
a heinous crime, but I think everybody violates

00:55:04.949 --> 00:55:09.650
consent. Are you talking about consent in a sexual

00:55:09.650 --> 00:55:12.050
sense or just consent, anything? In general.

00:55:12.269 --> 00:55:15.510
In general, okay. Sure, yeah, people making assumptions,

00:55:15.530 --> 00:55:19.409
yeah. But then also by extension for most adults.

00:55:19.530 --> 00:55:22.889
Now is that because? Sexual as well. Right, now

00:55:22.889 --> 00:55:25.769
is that because it's implied? See, this is the

00:55:25.769 --> 00:55:28.519
thing. This is the problem. This is the straw

00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:31.860
the challenge of consent is that it's not clearly

00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:36.300
defined like Okay, every culture has different

00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:39.980
ideas of consent and like you're in Europe for

00:55:39.980 --> 00:55:42.260
example in France their ideas of consent are

00:55:42.260 --> 00:55:44.980
different than America American consent the idea

00:55:44.980 --> 00:55:49.000
is way more strict than let's say France and

00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.099
so, you know, there's that that becomes the challenge

00:55:52.099 --> 00:55:58.820
of defining it and Really policing it. I'm talking

00:55:58.820 --> 00:56:03.519
about consent between two people more than society's

00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:06.679
concept of what consent is. But between two people,

00:56:07.019 --> 00:56:10.019
that idea is a result of how they're socialized

00:56:10.019 --> 00:56:15.400
around the concept. Yeah, sure, but in any situation

00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:18.360
like that, one of them is the power dynamic is

00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:22.239
not equal. It's never equal. No. No matter what.

00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:29.760
And I think that with partners, consent evolves.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.099
I'm not saying that it evolves beyond the boundaries

00:56:33.099 --> 00:56:36.019
that we've set and the definitions, but the way

00:56:36.019 --> 00:56:39.599
that is given and revoked and managed during

00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:44.460
an interaction of any kind evolves into something

00:56:44.460 --> 00:56:48.119
different. It becomes maybe a more mature, more

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:53.760
nuanced version of... revocation and give a like.

00:56:54.139 --> 00:56:58.960
For example, if you, tell me if I'm wrong. If

00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:02.179
you are with, and tell me if I'm wrong. If you're

00:57:02.179 --> 00:57:05.440
with a partner and you've been with this partner

00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:12.300
for a long time, they can revoke their consent

00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:14.800
to do something in that time, even if you've

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:17.820
done it before, with a sound. or a movement,

00:57:18.019 --> 00:57:20.219
or a look. And you will know what that means

00:57:20.219 --> 00:57:23.659
because you know them intimately. But yeah, so

00:57:23.659 --> 00:57:26.780
that's my point is like it can evolve over time.

00:57:27.579 --> 00:57:29.280
I think looking back to what you're talking about,

00:57:29.340 --> 00:57:32.980
Luigi, yeah, there are different understandings

00:57:32.980 --> 00:57:34.900
of consent. And I think the biggest aspect of

00:57:34.900 --> 00:57:37.460
that is generational. You know, if we look back

00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:43.000
30, 30 years. horrifyingly in some cultures less

00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.619
than that. You know, consent wasn't something

00:57:45.619 --> 00:57:47.820
that was discussed because, you know, it was

00:57:47.820 --> 00:57:51.340
a man's right. So actually these nuanced discussions

00:57:51.340 --> 00:57:54.340
around consent for some cultures are, you know,

00:57:55.019 --> 00:57:58.800
really quite young. We look at, you know, let's

00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:00.920
adjacent. I hate that word. If we look at laws,

00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:05.659
there are some countries where up until the early

00:58:05.659 --> 00:58:08.400
2000s, men were legally allowed to rape their

00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:14.780
wives. So in a cultural context of that. you

00:58:14.780 --> 00:58:16.920
know of course there's going to be some blurring

00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:19.679
lines and I think you know when we take I would

00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.840
say people who are of our generation we're kind

00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:25.239
of straddling two sides of kind of we grew up

00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:28.139
learning from what we saw in TV media our parents

00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:32.199
perhaps and that was kind of the old ethos whereas

00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:35.900
you know moving into a space where it is more

00:58:35.900 --> 00:58:38.440
acceptable to have these open discussions about

00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:41.559
it like you know even I was engaging in BDSM

00:58:41.559 --> 00:58:44.519
when I was younger than I should be. And even

00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:47.239
then I didn't have the language and no one had

00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:50.139
ever taught me I had the language. And it wasn't

00:58:50.139 --> 00:58:52.860
until maybe 10 years ago when I'd been practicing

00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:57.380
BDSM for over five years that I realized that

00:58:57.380 --> 00:59:00.460
I was allowed to say yes and no to certain things.

00:59:00.980 --> 00:59:04.900
I was allowed to say yes or no between scenes

00:59:04.900 --> 00:59:08.440
with the same partner. And I think the ethos

00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.539
around it has changed a lot because before that,

00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:14.539
you know, even outside of marriage, my first

00:59:14.539 --> 00:59:18.760
experience of heteronormative sex was as the

00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:22.619
woman, I accept whatever the man is giving and

00:59:22.619 --> 00:59:26.219
wants. So I think, yes, there is some there is

00:59:26.219 --> 00:59:29.860
some blurred lines, but I think that's a time.

00:59:30.019 --> 00:59:33.159
Do you think that was like a like a cultural

00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:38.230
construct of like being woman? Like, you just

00:59:38.230 --> 00:59:42.130
kind of passively accept a man's behavior in

00:59:42.130 --> 00:59:43.730
that respect, like, you know, oh, boys will be

00:59:43.730 --> 00:59:46.570
boys. I guess I can't, like you said, you don't

00:59:46.570 --> 00:59:49.250
know about consent. I think that was part of

00:59:49.250 --> 00:59:52.510
it, particularly as someone who I had come to

00:59:52.510 --> 00:59:55.269
terms with my own queerness at that point. But

00:59:55.269 --> 00:59:58.289
definitely when I was with male partners, I felt

00:59:58.289 --> 01:00:02.610
the need to be that feminine stereotype. Right.

01:00:04.539 --> 01:00:06.940
Interestingly, I started having conversations

01:00:06.940 --> 01:00:10.039
about what we do or didn't want, and that's kind

01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:12.860
of how consent was initially framed when I first

01:00:12.860 --> 01:00:15.920
started learning about it, with women far younger

01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:20.320
than with men. And even now, I find having these

01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:23.699
conversations with women far easier. There are,

01:00:23.699 --> 01:00:25.980
you know, certain groups of men that seem really

01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:28.019
receptive and really willing to have those conversations,

01:00:28.099 --> 01:00:31.219
particularly if you open them up. But I have

01:00:31.219 --> 01:00:35.679
still had, you know, in recent years, men turn

01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:37.219
around to me and be like, we don't need to talk

01:00:37.219 --> 01:00:40.820
about this, and instantly be like, goodbye. So

01:00:40.820 --> 01:00:44.539
it's definitely a shift and a cultural shift

01:00:44.539 --> 01:00:48.780
at that as well. But yeah, I think there is so

01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:52.079
much to one pick and ultimately you have to want

01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:56.420
to. And there are still just some people, because

01:00:56.420 --> 01:00:57.760
of who they are, because of how they've been

01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:01.750
brought up, that don't care. and therefore don't

01:01:01.750 --> 01:01:04.230
want to learn and don't want to navigate having

01:01:04.230 --> 01:01:07.010
these discussions or engender an understanding

01:01:07.010 --> 01:01:09.130
of consent. So they don't care about these things.

01:01:09.769 --> 01:01:11.710
Do you think, why don't they care about these

01:01:11.710 --> 01:01:15.690
things? Because we know it's bad. Like we know

01:01:15.690 --> 01:01:18.710
not giving consent is bad. So what I can't understand

01:01:18.710 --> 01:01:21.710
is why these people don't have no fear of them

01:01:21.710 --> 01:01:23.670
doing something bad. If you can rape someone

01:01:23.670 --> 01:01:25.289
and still be president, why would they be fair?

01:01:25.429 --> 01:01:30.579
Fair enough. Yeah, terrible. But yeah. That's

01:01:30.579 --> 01:01:33.059
a very good point. I'm still coming to terms

01:01:33.059 --> 01:01:36.400
with and learning about a lot of these things

01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:43.039
and breaking down my own misogyny that was ingrained

01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:46.980
in me. And I think a lot of... But to answer

01:01:46.980 --> 01:01:50.380
your question, I think it's just the patriarchy.

01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.059
I know that right now for a lot of people that

01:01:54.059 --> 01:01:57.460
will sound just radical and then they just...

01:01:57.050 --> 01:01:59.530
They think radical feminists and then they shut

01:01:59.530 --> 01:02:02.170
it down or they reject it. They think buzzwords.

01:02:02.190 --> 01:02:07.269
They've had buzzwords, exactly. Yeah. We have

01:02:07.269 --> 01:02:11.230
to figure out a way to work around these buzzwords

01:02:11.230 --> 01:02:14.230
that just shut it down because of rhetoric. Anyway,

01:02:14.550 --> 01:02:18.929
recently I made a comment on Facebook. It was

01:02:18.929 --> 01:02:23.369
a radio show about why Father's Day isn't big.

01:02:23.610 --> 01:02:26.110
Why Father's Day isn't as big as Mother's Day.

01:02:28.120 --> 01:02:31.239
My comment was, I don't remember exactly what

01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:34.340
the conversation was, but basically one of the

01:02:34.340 --> 01:02:38.539
questions was, should we cancel Father's Day

01:02:38.539 --> 01:02:43.400
altogether? Because there are some fathers that

01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:46.599
are good. Anyway, my comment was, and then you

01:02:46.599 --> 01:02:51.980
get some men who complained, who will complain

01:02:51.980 --> 01:02:55.320
about this being canceled. But the bottom line

01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:57.920
is show up. and then we'll have a discussion.

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:01.940
Right. Show up first. The reaction was that a

01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:05.460
whole bunch of fathers replied to me, right?

01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:08.619
And they're like, you know, we're here, you're

01:03:08.619 --> 01:03:11.000
just ignoring us, this is erasure, blah, blah,

01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:13.280
blah, blah, whatever. But none of my comments

01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:20.440
were about that. The point is society has created

01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:25.110
a scenario where even good fathers by no fault

01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:28.429
of their own are stuck at work bread -winning

01:03:28.429 --> 01:03:33.150
and they will think that a comment like that

01:03:33.150 --> 01:03:37.809
targets them explicitly because I'm saying that

01:03:37.809 --> 01:03:41.869
they they they are assuming that I'm saying that

01:03:41.869 --> 01:03:44.190
they're bad fathers and then they'll be like

01:03:44.190 --> 01:03:46.369
there are bad mothers there are absent mothers

01:03:46.369 --> 01:03:49.869
you know of course there are nobody made that

01:03:49.869 --> 01:03:52.530
claim But your problem isn't with the fact that

01:03:52.530 --> 01:03:56.289
you can't be at school on Father's Day. Your

01:03:56.289 --> 01:03:58.889
problem is by the fact that you are stuck at

01:03:58.889 --> 01:04:01.969
work and not able to go. And that problem is

01:04:01.969 --> 01:04:05.010
because of the patriarchy. Because you are supposed

01:04:05.010 --> 01:04:08.269
to be the breadwinner in your heteronormative

01:04:08.269 --> 01:04:13.110
society. So fix that first and then show up for

01:04:13.110 --> 01:04:16.940
feminism and then we can talk. It's equal. You

01:04:16.940 --> 01:04:19.159
think that will fix consent? How did I go from

01:04:19.159 --> 01:04:24.519
there to consent? I think that yes, when the

01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:27.840
power dynamic shifts to something that is seen

01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:31.900
in society as truly equal. Oh yeah, definitely.

01:04:32.900 --> 01:04:36.440
Where gender norms are broken down to a point

01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:40.559
where it doesn't really matter. what you are,

01:04:40.639 --> 01:04:43.400
how you present and who you feel like. And I

01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:45.960
think that's probably why there are, you know,

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.579
less issues. And I'm not saying there's none,

01:04:49.780 --> 01:04:52.480
because of course there always is, but there

01:04:52.480 --> 01:04:56.300
statistically are less issues with consent in

01:04:56.300 --> 01:04:59.880
BDSM where there is less distinction of power

01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:04.019
in terms of the power to gender ratio or queer

01:05:04.019 --> 01:05:08.679
couples. So... addressing that would kind of

01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:12.099
hopefully help. Yeah, exactly, because in a BDSM

01:05:12.099 --> 01:05:16.739
scene, it's really the masochist who has all

01:05:16.739 --> 01:05:19.960
the power. The sub holds ultimate power, and

01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:23.139
only Dom, who says they don't, is not left the

01:05:23.139 --> 01:05:25.840
way insult. Exactly, because that is the person

01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.539
who says, we stop now. Who sets the parameters

01:05:28.539 --> 01:05:34.139
of which it takes place. But they both agree

01:05:34.139 --> 01:05:40.010
to consent. so okay do you both this is for both

01:05:40.010 --> 01:05:44.550
you uh do you think consent is a contract between

01:05:44.550 --> 01:05:48.789
two people it's an on i think it's an ongoing

01:05:48.789 --> 01:05:51.510
agreement contract i was going to ask if you

01:05:51.510 --> 01:05:56.750
would use agreement as um transposable for contract

01:05:56.750 --> 01:05:58.329
for me they're different words that some people

01:05:58.329 --> 01:06:00.929
see them as the same like a contract you necessarily

01:06:00.929 --> 01:06:03.730
like sign on a piece of paper but consent is

01:06:05.180 --> 01:06:09.219
And to it and once the terms have been agreed

01:06:09.219 --> 01:06:12.619
on it it carries on but that might see the challenge

01:06:12.619 --> 01:06:16.639
was instantly revocable It's an ongoing agreement

01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:19.780
that can be ended by either party at any moment

01:06:19.780 --> 01:06:22.219
sure or amended or amended Yeah, and that might

01:06:22.219 --> 01:06:25.179
be why consent is such a tricky topic especially

01:06:25.179 --> 01:06:28.619
in law because it it is contractual but paradoxically

01:06:28.619 --> 01:06:31.880
it's it's not because people essentially they

01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:35.920
they can break it but it It's almost like it

01:06:35.920 --> 01:06:38.320
shouldn't be broken once you agree. That's that's

01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:42.380
where people that's where let's say the the bad

01:06:42.380 --> 01:06:46.960
The bad people get angry, you know, you broke

01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:51.260
the contract so they feel like they've been What

01:06:51.260 --> 01:06:53.460
what's the word such yeah, that's such a rabbit

01:06:53.460 --> 01:06:55.699
hole because the moment you said that I thought

01:06:55.699 --> 01:06:59.219
oh You know that trans panic. It doesn't make

01:06:59.219 --> 01:07:02.059
it right. Definitely Like, a person should be

01:07:02.059 --> 01:07:04.300
able to change their mind, but I think that's

01:07:04.300 --> 01:07:06.980
one of the big challenges with consent, especially

01:07:06.980 --> 01:07:11.239
in, like, you know, law and things, is that when

01:07:11.239 --> 01:07:14.139
bad things go down, when bad things happen...

01:07:14.139 --> 01:07:18.039
Can I not plug it in? When bad things happen,

01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:24.309
they can't... They can't, I forget, I don't know,

01:07:24.349 --> 01:07:25.849
I lost the train of thought. They can't defend

01:07:25.849 --> 01:07:28.889
themselves? Is that not just like the same as

01:07:28.889 --> 01:07:33.429
the men who expect, like expect sex? So for example,

01:07:33.510 --> 01:07:35.389
you know, that's just like, that's just bad.

01:07:35.409 --> 01:07:37.889
It's just toxic masculinity. Like that's bad.

01:07:38.030 --> 01:07:42.010
But it's kind of similar, isn't it? It's a similar

01:07:42.010 --> 01:07:44.730
way of thinking. That's kind of like coercion.

01:07:44.789 --> 01:07:48.260
Those men who do... who, you know, force themselves

01:07:48.260 --> 01:07:50.659
on women and the women acquiesce. I think that's

01:07:50.659 --> 01:07:53.300
a form of coercion and it's bad. But even without

01:07:53.300 --> 01:07:55.719
like pushing themselves on them. So for example,

01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:59.139
like I've been on dates and I've had like a guy,

01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:03.559
a guy offer to pay and me be like, no, I'm okay,

01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:07.159
thank you. Because I stopped letting men pay

01:08:07.159 --> 01:08:10.239
on the first date because that led to so many

01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:12.739
conversations around, oh, I paid for your dinner.

01:08:12.780 --> 01:08:14.400
So what do you mean we're not going back to your

01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:20.899
house? And that happened quite frequently, more

01:08:20.899 --> 01:08:23.500
often than not, which is why it led to me no

01:08:23.500 --> 01:08:27.460
longer allowing people to pay because that payment

01:08:27.460 --> 01:08:31.300
seemed to be considered transactional for sex.

01:08:31.800 --> 01:08:37.140
And I think that is the mindset that I mean kind

01:08:37.140 --> 01:08:41.680
of akin to the concept of consent being like...

01:08:41.680 --> 01:08:44.399
Well, I've signed the contract. I've said yes.

01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:47.420
Yeah, it's it's that similar paradoxical mindset

01:08:47.420 --> 01:08:50.439
of right. Oh, this is well, this is kind of comes

01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:52.880
down to a man's expectation of my right. Right.

01:08:53.020 --> 01:08:58.479
Exactly. Which is so in your younger years, you,

01:08:58.500 --> 01:09:02.220
you, you, you kind of you accepted that when

01:09:02.220 --> 01:09:03.600
they paid for dinner, you thought, oh, I guess

01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:06.949
I have to. Yeah, there are definitely times when

01:09:06.949 --> 01:09:09.149
I have done things with people that I felt obliged

01:09:09.149 --> 01:09:12.869
to. There are times when I felt unsafe to say

01:09:12.869 --> 01:09:15.670
no. Right, yeah, there's another big issue. There

01:09:15.670 --> 01:09:21.449
are times when I had said no and then was coerced

01:09:21.449 --> 01:09:29.029
or convinced. Here's something that I think is...

01:09:29.029 --> 01:09:32.510
What are the cool aspects of consent working?

01:09:32.670 --> 01:09:37.050
is all of a sudden what becomes okay. Once you

01:09:37.050 --> 01:09:40.529
have a proper playpen set up and the agreement

01:09:40.529 --> 01:09:43.489
is there and trust is built, objectification,

01:09:44.029 --> 01:09:46.930
sexualization, all of these things suddenly become

01:09:46.930 --> 01:09:51.850
acceptable within the framework of consent, fetishization,

01:09:52.250 --> 01:09:56.630
everything. And that, to me, is much more exciting

01:09:56.630 --> 01:10:02.880
than the effort it takes to get consent to to

01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:04.920
a point, and if only people could understand,

01:10:05.260 --> 01:10:09.800
like, oh, if I engage with this structure, this

01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:13.680
contract or agreement in a proper way, then this

01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:16.779
person's body is my oyster. Right away. Yeah.

01:10:17.020 --> 01:10:18.619
But again, it comes down to like being given

01:10:18.619 --> 01:10:21.260
those tools. And unfortunately, you know, there

01:10:21.260 --> 01:10:25.180
are, you know, if we look at, for example, Tramporty

01:10:25.180 --> 01:10:28.319
Long's kids, you know, they're not going to have

01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:30.840
been taught how to have conversations about a

01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:33.640
woman's body. I don't know about that. Not Trump,

01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:37.279
but Elon has a transgender child. He's disowned.

01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:39.979
Yes, but she's still his kid and she's still

01:10:39.979 --> 01:10:43.239
intelligent. No, no, no, no. I think that she

01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:47.260
discovered that on her own and she will happily

01:10:47.260 --> 01:10:50.479
inform her siblings about it, but it's not going

01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:52.340
to come from Elon. So you think those kids just

01:10:52.340 --> 01:10:54.869
won't learn about it? I think they won't be given

01:10:54.869 --> 01:10:57.949
appropriate tools to have conversations in the

01:10:57.949 --> 01:11:00.350
way the modern world expects. I think the world,

01:11:00.609 --> 01:11:02.890
I think they have those things. I think they

01:11:02.890 --> 01:11:05.210
have access to them. I think it's an issue of

01:11:05.210 --> 01:11:09.409
power. And that's a kind of class issue. Like

01:11:09.409 --> 01:11:11.949
they understand where they are in the world.

01:11:12.390 --> 01:11:15.550
And if they are true, not saying they are, but

01:11:15.550 --> 01:11:20.340
if they're bad people. If they're bad people,

01:11:20.340 --> 01:11:22.659
they'll do bad things because they have, you

01:11:22.659 --> 01:11:26.479
know, so much power to exercise. Anyway, which

01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:28.659
is terrible. That's just another topic. You're

01:11:28.659 --> 01:11:31.819
right. I brought it back to Nazis. I think I

01:11:31.819 --> 01:11:35.880
went there with Elon. We can take mutual responsibility

01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:40.579
there. I had no idea Elon Musk's family were

01:11:40.579 --> 01:11:44.979
Nazis in Canada. I had no idea. I think his dad

01:11:44.979 --> 01:11:49.199
is pretty woke. Actually, I'm using that term.

01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:54.960
In a way, like... Tolerant? Tolerant, understanding,

01:11:56.140 --> 01:12:02.640
progressive, liberal, advocate for equal rights

01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:05.960
in South Africa. But owns diamond mines, or emerald

01:12:05.960 --> 01:12:10.279
mines. Owns a diamond mine, so... Yeah, exactly,

01:12:10.340 --> 01:12:13.239
emerald mines. I'm not sure how far that goes,

01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:17.560
but he was part of the... by the groups within

01:12:17.560 --> 01:12:21.319
the universities that fought for equal rights.

01:12:21.659 --> 01:12:25.319
How that squares with him marrying an actual

01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:30.800
Nazi, I have no idea. So... He didn't know she

01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:34.180
was a Nazi. Great. I don't think Nazis are good

01:12:34.180 --> 01:12:36.140
at hiding what the heart wants. The heart wants

01:12:36.140 --> 01:12:37.739
what the heart wants. When you love somebody,

01:12:37.819 --> 01:12:40.539
you will accept how crazy their family is, right?

01:12:40.579 --> 01:12:43.899
How many times do we hear that? This is not...

01:12:43.579 --> 01:12:46.659
A rose by any other name would still smell as

01:12:46.659 --> 01:12:49.159
sweet in that way. I just don't think you've

01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:51.439
loved someone so much that you just have to accept

01:12:51.439 --> 01:12:54.619
their crazy family. That's the cliche. I'm reporting

01:12:54.619 --> 01:12:57.439
from popular culture. I certainly haven't. Elon's

01:12:57.439 --> 01:12:59.760
mom, I don't think she was... It wasn't like

01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:01.979
her family was that and she wasn't. I think she

01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:05.319
was actually also. I'm not sure. No more diverging

01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:08.739
to Nazis. Go back. That's coming back to consent.

01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:11.939
Okay, so consent. Should we depend on the law?

01:13:12.090 --> 01:13:16.710
to help us no with consent no really no why because

01:13:16.710 --> 01:13:19.770
it's written by men for the purpose of men i

01:13:19.770 --> 01:13:24.829
was just gonna say not all men there must be

01:13:24.829 --> 01:13:27.550
some women law female lawmakers come on it's

01:13:27.550 --> 01:13:30.710
all made luigi until it's no men i understand

01:13:30.710 --> 01:13:35.250
like yeah consent even in even in law the the

01:13:35.250 --> 01:13:37.630
like This is something I learned recently. I

01:13:37.630 --> 01:13:39.510
don't know if it's criminal law or there's so

01:13:39.510 --> 01:13:42.329
many terms for law, but the point is if a contract

01:13:42.329 --> 01:13:46.170
is made and it still disrupts the social order,

01:13:46.390 --> 01:13:49.289
it is null and void according to the law. And

01:13:49.289 --> 01:13:50.770
that's why I think when it comes to consent,

01:13:51.149 --> 01:13:53.869
the law is important and can be helpful for things

01:13:53.869 --> 01:13:56.029
like consent. I think it can be helpful, but

01:13:56.029 --> 01:14:00.659
I also think it can be... used to, I guess, uphold

01:14:00.659 --> 01:14:03.659
like certain groups' agendas. Take like sex work,

01:14:03.659 --> 01:14:06.539
for example. Yeah. I think that someone should

01:14:06.539 --> 01:14:10.600
be able to decide whether they consent to selling

01:14:10.600 --> 01:14:13.340
their body or services for money. Sure. As well

01:14:13.340 --> 01:14:15.619
as someone being able to consent to purchasing

01:14:15.619 --> 01:14:18.460
that. But if you think about how many countries

01:14:18.460 --> 01:14:23.279
have put laws against either one or both. So

01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:25.960
I think the problem with us relying on law for

01:14:25.960 --> 01:14:29.520
consent is it becomes a Well, the law says XYZ

01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:34.039
and anything else is outlawed. And the criminalisation

01:14:34.039 --> 01:14:36.979
of that and typically how that impacts women

01:14:36.979 --> 01:14:39.220
and female presenting people, people who are

01:14:39.220 --> 01:14:42.880
queer, people of colour. So if you look at, you

01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:45.840
know, the types of people, if we continue on

01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:48.300
the like, strand of sex work, typically lower

01:14:48.300 --> 01:14:51.000
class people, the disproportionate amount of

01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:53.000
people who are, you know, people of colour, Hispanic,

01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:57.489
etc. and they're already, you know, at risk and

01:14:57.489 --> 01:15:02.130
vulnerable. So it's looking at whether the law

01:15:02.130 --> 01:15:06.550
gives protection to everyone or just the groups

01:15:06.550 --> 01:15:08.710
of people who benefit from those laws. Well,

01:15:08.710 --> 01:15:11.289
I would hope the law protects everybody. Unfortunately,

01:15:12.050 --> 01:15:15.390
I think it comes into the... Depends on a good

01:15:15.390 --> 01:15:19.079
lawyer. We cannot codify... concept. And I think

01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:22.319
that consent is a concept based around bodily

01:15:22.319 --> 01:15:25.479
autonomy and personal proximity. Well then now

01:15:25.479 --> 01:15:28.840
this just depends on just how good human beings

01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:31.840
are to each other. You just have to hope, you

01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:35.199
know. Anybody who's not a good human being to

01:15:35.199 --> 01:15:38.199
someone else is violating consent by definition.

01:15:38.619 --> 01:15:43.449
I guess for me I can't reconcile the idea or

01:15:43.449 --> 01:15:46.590
the term of consent without some kind of greater

01:15:46.590 --> 01:15:50.710
authority to uphold it. And that's where I am

01:15:50.710 --> 01:15:53.569
kind of like, oh, consent now is just like a

01:15:53.569 --> 01:15:58.390
thing we're saying informally between two people.

01:15:58.649 --> 01:16:01.789
OK, but OK, here's the question. Because if something

01:16:01.789 --> 01:16:03.529
bad goes, sorry to cut you off, but if something

01:16:03.529 --> 01:16:05.750
bad happens, what's the one person going to say?

01:16:06.130 --> 01:16:09.649
You were wrong to me. How does the person who

01:16:09.649 --> 01:16:13.680
breaks that, you know, contract of consent, the

01:16:13.680 --> 01:16:17.659
informal contract of consent, how do they get

01:16:17.659 --> 01:16:21.159
punished or not do it again or pay for their

01:16:21.159 --> 01:16:23.020
crimes? See, now I'm using a lot of legal language.

01:16:23.159 --> 01:16:26.319
Tough. I think those are good questions. Here's

01:16:26.319 --> 01:16:32.079
a question. I think sex work is a good allegory

01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:38.020
for it. It's your body, right? Okay. And your...

01:16:39.700 --> 01:16:42.979
ability to sell your body exists only with you.

01:16:43.140 --> 01:16:45.939
And if it's not that, it's slavery. Yeah. And

01:16:45.939 --> 01:16:49.880
for someone to deny you that ability directly

01:16:49.880 --> 01:16:52.539
affects your autonomy as a human being. Okay,

01:16:52.539 --> 01:16:55.420
how about this? Sometimes you have to work or

01:16:55.420 --> 01:16:57.420
else you'll starve and die. So really, do you

01:16:57.420 --> 01:16:59.420
have a choice? Why do you have to work? To make

01:16:59.420 --> 01:17:01.399
money. That's my point. We shouldn't need money.

01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:04.600
We shouldn't need money. No. Well, it would be

01:17:04.600 --> 01:17:08.149
nice. Like your basic needs food or... should

01:17:08.149 --> 01:17:11.329
be provided, right? That's like basic tenet of

01:17:11.329 --> 01:17:13.350
all human rights. Okay, who's going to provide

01:17:13.350 --> 01:17:16.770
these things? In my opinion, it should be provided

01:17:16.770 --> 01:17:21.289
by the state, the community that you live in,

01:17:21.550 --> 01:17:24.310
whichever community that might be. And for us,

01:17:24.409 --> 01:17:27.909
our communities are ultra massive. So the state.

01:17:30.489 --> 01:17:33.470
Because at my heart, basically, what I'm saying

01:17:33.470 --> 01:17:40.390
is I learned... So, shouldn't the state, doesn't

01:17:40.390 --> 01:17:43.130
the state, or rather shouldn't the state have

01:17:43.130 --> 01:17:46.710
a right to create rules to maintain order so

01:17:46.710 --> 01:17:49.810
everyone can have their free food and free shelter

01:17:49.810 --> 01:17:51.630
and things like that? But who gets to decide

01:17:51.630 --> 01:17:54.970
what is and isn't disorder? Like one person saying

01:17:54.970 --> 01:17:57.869
that sex work is disorder. We all have to, we

01:17:57.869 --> 01:18:01.270
have to have people who represent us and then

01:18:01.270 --> 01:18:03.819
they have bigger groups. And elective visuals,

01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:09.239
obviously. See, it's complicated. I don't think

01:18:09.239 --> 01:18:12.899
anybody's advocating for nobody being a leader

01:18:12.899 --> 01:18:18.260
of necessarily some kind of guidance. We spoke

01:18:18.260 --> 01:18:20.659
about this yesterday. Some rules are required

01:18:20.659 --> 01:18:23.920
for some interactions because that relates directly

01:18:23.920 --> 01:18:30.000
to insight. But what shouldn't be controlled

01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:35.770
by anyone? is the production of goods. Okay.

01:18:35.890 --> 01:18:40.310
And that's communism, right? When the production

01:18:40.310 --> 01:18:43.210
of goods at least becomes collectively earned,

01:18:43.489 --> 01:18:48.189
then everybody suddenly has food. I'm thinking

01:18:48.189 --> 01:18:50.630
of something to say, but I don't want to say

01:18:50.630 --> 01:18:54.430
it. I'm just thinking of how to say it. So there's,

01:18:54.430 --> 01:18:58.130
you know, people who own the means of production

01:18:58.130 --> 01:19:01.430
and then capital and the person selling their

01:19:01.430 --> 01:19:04.289
capital. to create something. No more capital.

01:19:04.529 --> 01:19:07.989
Means of production goes to the organized state.

01:19:08.289 --> 01:19:11.130
You get to keep your farm, but all of your debt

01:19:11.130 --> 01:19:14.029
is wiped out. You can keep it or you can move

01:19:14.029 --> 01:19:18.510
out. But the crops that you have, the land, becomes

01:19:18.510 --> 01:19:20.510
property of the state. You can stay in your house.

01:19:20.810 --> 01:19:23.470
You can probably still run the farm. You have

01:19:23.470 --> 01:19:25.989
everything you need. And by everything you need,

01:19:26.170 --> 01:19:30.010
it's not like, oh, you need... It would be like...

01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:32.699
Hey, I'm doing a podcast. You know what I need?

01:19:32.979 --> 01:19:36.380
I need five of those cameras. And then those

01:19:36.380 --> 01:19:38.340
five cameras get delivered to me. Who's going

01:19:38.340 --> 01:19:40.460
to make all those cameras? What if somebody wants

01:19:40.460 --> 01:19:43.779
more cameras than you? And they can have them

01:19:43.779 --> 01:19:46.039
if they need them. If they need them. That's

01:19:46.039 --> 01:19:48.079
the that's the thing, isn't it? If they need

01:19:48.079 --> 01:19:50.279
who's going to decide you're needing too much.

01:19:50.579 --> 01:19:54.680
And then, OK, so my personal opinion comes like

01:19:54.680 --> 01:19:59.680
I like the idea of no, there's no ownership of

01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:03.840
of production. That's owned by the state. But

01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:08.300
you still own your personal production. The art

01:20:08.300 --> 01:20:12.100
that you make is not owned by anybody else. But

01:20:12.100 --> 01:20:15.460
that is not something that anyone else needs.

01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:19.100
But you might want that. So as a social lubricant,

01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:23.720
money may exist for you to purchase some of that

01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:27.579
with universal basic income. So you are able

01:20:27.579 --> 01:20:30.479
to acquire wealth and get things that you want,

01:20:30.699 --> 01:20:35.399
not need. So economic activities that are not

01:20:35.399 --> 01:20:38.979
related to the means of production of basic human.

01:20:39.239 --> 01:20:41.260
I think that's the thing though as well, like

01:20:41.260 --> 01:20:44.000
I would argue that a camera is not a basic human

01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:47.260
need. Sure, that's fair. So I think, you know,

01:20:47.340 --> 01:20:49.739
when we're talking about... But if I say I want

01:20:49.739 --> 01:20:52.479
to do a podcast, I'm starting an entertainment.

01:20:52.699 --> 01:20:55.649
But that's still not a basic human need. That's

01:20:55.649 --> 01:20:58.489
fair. We're all gonna be farmers and just...

01:20:58.489 --> 01:21:00.989
No, no, no. This is it. Perfection. What's it

01:21:00.989 --> 01:21:04.409
in? Perfection. Yeah, literally. Run a farm.

01:21:04.670 --> 01:21:06.409
Don't have to worry about work. Be able to make

01:21:06.409 --> 01:21:08.270
some art. Literally the goal. Well, that's your

01:21:08.270 --> 01:21:11.510
goal. Yeah. I think that there's a space for

01:21:11.510 --> 01:21:15.510
technology within this perfect communist society.

01:21:15.729 --> 01:21:18.829
And I think that nobody's going to say, you can't

01:21:18.829 --> 01:21:22.069
have food for yourself. Like, you can still have

01:21:22.069 --> 01:21:26.060
your own cow. What if I'm still hungry? What?

01:21:26.680 --> 01:21:29.340
Sounds great. We've diverged far from consent.

01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:33.460
How did we get here? It comes from rules of this

01:21:33.460 --> 01:21:36.859
state. Basically, what I think is what we're

01:21:36.859 --> 01:21:40.180
coming to is the concept, at least for this particular

01:21:40.180 --> 01:21:42.420
instance of the podcast, the concept of consent

01:21:42.420 --> 01:21:45.380
is the discussion is closing. I don't want to

01:21:45.380 --> 01:21:51.720
talk about anything. We've been at this for two

01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:56.930
hours. Really? Yeah. We're gonna wrap it up!

01:21:57.149 --> 01:21:58.750
I loved how you loosened up. I could have talked

01:21:58.750 --> 01:22:01.810
about kink. Yeah, you started off a little bit

01:22:01.810 --> 01:22:05.489
nervous. I told you, I am really not good at

01:22:05.489 --> 01:22:07.090
this type of stuff until it's stuff that I really

01:22:07.090 --> 01:22:08.529
care about. Oh, then we should have talked about

01:22:08.529 --> 01:22:13.510
shit you really cared about. Don't forget to

01:22:13.510 --> 01:22:18.029
subscribe, comment, share. You can follow us

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