It's back. Little unplug plug -in works. Yeah.
Okay. That should be fine. How would you define
yourself, Jess? Um... We haven't started yet.
How would I define myself? Yeah. I can't just
go with the umbrella term. Fucked up. Fucked
up. Okay. Um... Creative. Over -thinker. Um...
Lost. Create. Lost? Yeah. Why? Thank you. The
way I'm going to introduce you is... I'm going
to go through the spiel that we do for, like,
Welcome to Kaleidoscope. There's going to be
a second where the thing will play, like the
intro I'll edit it in. And then after that, I'm
going to introduce you. And then Luigi is going
to introduce himself. And then you can introduce
yourself. I'm going to say that you are a poet,
a teacher. Anything else? Poet, teacher, performer.
Socials? Um, yeah, aimer, underscore, moon, um,
underscore, musing. Has that changed? No. Author?
Oh yeah, right in the dark. Yeah. Really? That's
cool. Poetry book. She gave me one and then I
immediately lost it. I meant to bring another
one, but I completely forgot. Shame. I've written
another one for you. I've written a novel as
well, just speaking with publishers. Really?
Cool. Wasted my life. I'm going to, I'm going
to kick it off. It's completely unscripted. It's
like a nonchalant, almost irrelevant conversation.
Ten, we're really drunk. Ten, we're really, it's
a pity we don't have alcohol. We can, we can
order wine. If you - Don't do it. You can't.
Let's, how am I gonna start? Tough questions.
Honest answers. Oh, the messy truth. your perspectives.
Let's begin. Welcome to Kaleidoscope. Hi, I am
RubyRaelio. I'm what happens, well, I'm the cyberpunk
NPC we all wish was in the game but never downloaded.
This is Kaleidoscope. where we explore the art
of becoming through performance, writing, rhyming
and teaching. Welcome to Kaleidoscope! Yay! We're
joined today by, as always, the co -host, Luigi.
I'm Luigi and I don't understand long sleeve
shirts with shorts. And my dear friend, Jessica.
Hi. I am just trying to make sense of the world
through writing and creativity. Beautiful. Jessica,
welcome to the podcast. I am honored to have
you here in Suzhou and to be inside your hotel
room, even though it's quite gothic. You say
that like it's a bad thing. No, it's quite fitting.
It's got a good vibe. It's quite fitting. Are
we going for like dark? I like dark today. Yeah.
Fine. Wait, wait, let me be more smoldering.
When we do this podcast, we tend to share a perspective
or ask a question and or just state an opinion
and the rest of us kind of riff off of that.
Do you have a perspective, opinion or something
that you would like to share? I was hoping that
we could talk about the function of creativity
in the scope of mental health. That's a good
one. I don't know. I thought we were going to
talk about something else. That's better. Let's
go with that. This is good. OK. What do you think?
How do the two connect, mental health and creativity?
I think for me, like, creativity is a lifeline.
Like, the act of being able to create something
even in a place that isn't necessarily a light
place. So using the dark to create something
beautiful, transmute it into something that could
connect with others. I think you're right. And
it makes me think very quickly. It very quickly
made me connect to a place where there is a lack
of creativity. And I think that the two in some
way are linked. Because when you're in a dark
place, it means that you're inherently sensitive
to your environment. Right. And there's a group
of people that lack creativity. but they steal
it from others. They steal art. You expand on
that. Fascist Nazis. What do you mean? They take
creativity. Fascist Nazis. Yeah. I need you to
elaborate. It's kind of vague. I think AI, but
you know, whatever. I thought that's where we
were going with that. Okay. Maybe eventually.
No, I want to focus on this fascist Nazi thing.
My opinions about AI are changing. Yeah. my opinions
on... So if you look at American culture as a
cross -section, creativity, art and culture within
American society, and I think in many ways through
all of time, comes from the bottom rungs of society.
And if you like pizza, cheese fondue, fashion,
music... Okay. Like, innovative art comes from
the bottom rungs of society where people are
oppressed, denied, and obstructed in the way
that they can function. And I think the moment
that you start, like anybody who starts to try
and raise themselves above society through forceful
means, like fascist Nazis, like I don't think,
I'm sure that they were princes and princesses
and kings and queens. and were born into that
and kind of expressed through that. But they
always tend to, like if you watch shows or read
history, they always tend to go down in society
to get that. So it sounds like you're talking
about like appropriation. Yes, they take art.
They steal it. The Nazis steal art. Nazis steal
art. They steal creative... I mean, historically,
Nazis stole some art. Yeah. But did they steal
like an aesthetic and produced it? I do think
so. Like, okay, right now. There's a big thing
about the new Superman movie. Okay. Film me in.
Film me in on the latest tea. It's coming in
woke, okay? Is it? And the director has said
that Superman is about... Superman is an illegal
immigrant. Is that part of the plot in the movie?
I feel like that is. I don't know why. That sounds
so familiar. That's canonically what Superman
is. Yes, he's an alien. Yeah, you can make those...
I don't think the creator of Superman thought,
oh, this is a metaphor for immigration. I think
that he did. I think that he did. I think there
was a little thing online. I think he needed
a premise for a superhero to jump over buildings.
And he used an illegal immigrant to do it. Because
it's built on the premise of what America is.
America was built on illegal immigrants. It's
built on immigration, sure. Illegally? They didn't
come in for friendly attention. Not all of them.
I mean, historically, you know, there were people
they wanted, or there were people America wanted
to immigrate, sure. But okay, I'll go with it.
Okay, tell me more about the Superman movie.
And now you've got characters like Ben Shapiro.
Is he in the Superman movie? No, no, no, no.
He's not a character in the movie. He's a...
character within the societal mindset. And he
is saying that it's ridiculous. Superman is American
at its core, which is fine. The movie is American.
Yeah. But Superman as a character is not and
never was and never will be. Otherwise, it's
not Superman. Hmm. You mean he's not American
because he's an alien. But Ben Shapiro is making
the opposite statement. Well, I would say to
Ben Shapiro actually isn't Superman Canadian
in origin, but more importantly, I think a Canadian
created Superman. I can fact check in a second,
but I think Superman is American. He came, okay,
let's say the world Superman exists in is America,
a kind of America, right? A fictional America,
but he landed in a spaceship. He did not understand.
He was an orphan, he crashed, whatever, right?
And then some parents, a couple found him and
they raised him. So would that not mean he is
American? Does the Poisoning Man have all those
good values? He's an immigrant. He is, sure,
he's an adopted little orphan baby, but American
nonetheless. Not according to what's happening
in America right now. Okay, so we need to really
define... The flashpoint right now is Donald
Trump's... deportations. That's what the argument
is about. And the fact that the director has
said that Superman, his movie, is a story about
empathy, understanding, and immigration. Oh,
so the director explicitly stated that. He made
it. We'll see how many people watch the Superman
movie. People will still flock to it. Yeah, of
course. It's just pumping. I mean, I'll watch
it until I see the dog, which I think is silly.
I saw that part in the preview. Superdog? Took
me out of it. Yeah. I haven't even seen it. I
have zero interest in DC movies. Why do you think
that is? Quick aside, why? Just because they're
not as cool as Marvel? Why? Ask yourself why.
Yeah, why? Why are they not as cool as Marvel
movies? Budget? No. Characters? No. DC comics
are cool. I'm X -Men all the way, so I don't
know why you're looking at me. Yeah, but why
is Marvel cooler than DC? Because X -Men is Marvel.
I think the characters in Marvel have more of
a struggle. as human beings exactly yeah they
are relatable because yeah that's true all of
dc's heroes are superheroes that are trying to
be normal but all of marvel's heroes are normal
people that are super like things have happened
to them exactly so dc characters are kind of
like interlopers yeah except for batman we're
all thinking it except for that which is everybody
loves for some then iron man is just marvel's
batman he's significantly Cooler and more light
-hearted. Yeah, but I would argue people don't
really why do they like Iron Man because he's
because he's cool I don't really like Iron Man
because of explicitly because of those reasons.
It's too perfect. It's too smart and successful
He doesn't have a struggle He's dead in like
them the the movies Canada movies, but like if
we talk about the comics, I don't know. There's
so many iterations Yeah, I'm not as much of a
comic book buff as I'd like to admit So, you
know, I've consumed the movies for the most part.
Yeah, but anyway. Back to Nazis and fascism.
Jess, how do you feel about what we've said so
far? Superman, Nazis. I'm thinking WTF. I mean,
I've stared clear of... the new Superman movie
and any updates, because I'm just sick of films
being regurgitated, if I'm honest. Fair point.
But, you know, if a director is using it to make,
you know, a really valid and important statement,
particularly with the world that we're currently
living in, like, that is super cool, because
that puts, you know, puts themselves and their
work on the line. And then we have, you know,
lots of... Lots of people who have influence
and who have power either staying silent or making
some really shitty comments like, you know, it
would be good to see someone with power actually
using it for good. Yeah. As long as it's like
actually followed through and not just, you know,
throw away comments to try and make themselves
seem appealing. I don't think he's using it to
make a political statement. Unfortunately, he
just went on an interview and made those statements.
But I don't think the movie is directed in that
way. Because it would have been completed before
Donald Trump. You think he just does it to get
more viewers? To like pacify people? No, I think
the movie was filmed before Donald Trump had
his second term and hopefully everybody thought
that not Donald Trump was going to win. So the
director's retroactively just making comments
to... Well, no, I don't think his comments are
invalid. No. I don't think he's making those
comments for any other reason other than that
they're true, or within the spirit of the Superman
canon. Hi there. If you're still here, I'm very
sorry about that long political tangent. It was
related because I thought that art is being appropriated
by fascist Nazis and claimed for themselves.
I don't like that and I don't think anybody should
like that. I'm vehemently against Nazis. That
being said, we're about to start with the actual
question, the relation between mental health
and creativity. Please don't forget to subscribe,
comment, share. You can follow us on YouTube
at Ray Leo or Instagram, firefromheat or TikTok.
Heat from fire. Enjoy the show. What was the
original question? Creativity and mental health.
So I've made a statement. I've gone off way on
a tangent here about... It's because I'm trying
to avoid talking about my own mental health.
I think my mental health is fine. Creativity
has taken a big part of kaleidoscope, actually.
so far. The first episode, my perspective was,
my creativity disappeared during high school.
Right, you talked about this, yeah. And you know,
I wouldn't have attributed it to mental health
then, and I didn't. But I think that, yeah, part
of it is definitely mental health. I think people
are naturally creative, and when it becomes an
issue of mental health, it's because people have
been taught, you know, it's not worthwhile to
be creative. for whatever reason and so you don't
use it and you devalue it and then so in that
respect you might become you know a little sad
and a little miserable because you don't want
to express yourself not everybody obviously it
doesn't affect everybody but that's what I think
I think that's kind of two sides of the same
sort like either mental health being like a negative
experience a poor mental health and not creating
or using that as a way to create something else.
Like I find myself, I'm most inclined to write
songs, to write poetry when I'm feeling my worst.
And it's actually some of my best work. A fucking
horrifying and awful to read in the like heart
wrenching sense, but some of my favourite pieces.
Do I wish I could tap into that when I'm like
not feeling low? Of course. It's, as you say,
being given the space to freely express that.
And I do think as well, as well as devaluing
creativity, there is also still the pervading
sense that if you are struggling with your mental
health, you should be quiet and suffer in silence.
Yes. A lot of people do not want to hear about
it. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I also agree with
the idea that, yeah, when you're at your worst,
you might be the most creative because it does
act, it is therapeutic and it's cathartic. That's
the word cathartic, right? Yeah, when I used
to, when I was young and more emotional than
I am now, though I'm pretty emotional, who do
you know? Yeah, I would say the poetry I, because
I like to write poetry, the poetry I enjoyed
writing the most, or I thought was the best,
was because I was, you know, in a... In a state
of emotion. In a state of, what's the word when
you're simping hard for girls that you love?
I don't know. In love. Smitten. Smitten? I was
beyond that. But like my poetry that I loved
to write when I was young was the majority. Named.
Named. Named. Hysterical. No. You never. But
yeah, like definitely. And I couldn't recreate
good poems when I was in a good mood, right?
I agree with that. Maybe it's just, I mean, some
people I think that's the case. Some people don't
write poetry for that reason. This is hard for
me. to think about now because I have always
written from the time before when I was creative
the poems that I wrote were from a dark place
and I leveraged that emotion to write them but
now I think like my bandwidth was fucked completely
like my brain was way too busy doing other stuff
that I you know for like 20 years I did nothing
and then now I'm doing a shit tonne. But all
of it is from a place of joy. And I'm looking
down, I'm drawing from horrible emotions, but
I'm not writing in a state of a bad emotion.
So that's interesting to me. Would you argue
that heightened positive emotion is still just
like a heightened state? Because obviously mental
health is like a spectrum. Lots of people...
You use the phrase to just mean like ill mental
health, but actually it's the there's both things
Obviously, there's like a neutral but the positives
and the negatives so like drawing on that strong
emotion. Yeah for sure I think that strong emotion,
but then again like the nameless ship the newest
poem that I just finished It was it was the first
poem I've ever said to myself I want to write
a poem that evokes images of these CSS ship talks
about Ubuntu and connects like action and existence.
So those are mental health issues. And if you
if you apply them personally, but I was like,
this is what I want to write. I thought about
it for maybe two days. And then I was like, maybe
not. And then I sat down and I just wrote it
in in one sitting, which was like my feelings
were flat, you know, like I was I wasn't in it's
obviously not. apathetic to my own poetry, but
I wasn't feeling a particularly strong emotion.
Okay, interesting. Do you think there's sometimes
a difference in how you approach your own personal
writing in terms of like planning for a specific
purpose? Because I do similar writing tasks in
where I'm like, I want to either use these words
or focus on this topic. And when I write in that
sense, it's still me, but it reads different.
It's a different version of my voice. So I'm
just wondering if that planning process changed
anything for you? For this particular poem, no,
because I was just walking around thinking about
what I want to write and thinking about the story.
There's another story that actually, when you're
talking about voice, so there's another poem,
the previous one that I wrote, that I wrote in
a similar planning methodology. It's called The
Book That Would Not Open and The Nameless Ship.
Those two things are also kind of connected.
And it's a lot of descriptive emotive imagery.
And then it brings it into the physical where
there's actual dialogue or the observer speaks.
And then it closes with a final resolution. So
that voice is quite similar for both of those
poems. And the structure was very similar for
my planning. But other poems, yeah, you're right.
They're different. Some I write with, it's called
the velvet labyrinth. It's a bunch of questions
that you ask yourself. Like connect a wound with
an adjective. Fevered constellation is another
part. That's the title. And then you go through
like a very structured format. You can make it
elaborate. You can elaborate on each point or
you can just write a couple for it. Anyway. then
that's obviously a different voice. And then
if you think about when I was smitten with someone,
hard for me to think about because I think that
the most, the poem that sticks into my mind the
most, I was interested in the girl because of
gender envy, not because of anything else. I
wanted to be her more than I was in love with
her. But the, okay, the point is I think that,
and this is something I think is bad about creativity.
or rather a true a person this is when I doubt
a person's creativity maybe I'm wrong is that
they have to depend on these kinds of like really
emotional situations that's where the idea of
the muse comes from right so like imagine having
to depend on like your agony to turn out work
and then I think that I think that's why mental
health and creativity is so connected because
it is a tool to help you overcome whatever pain
you're going through. But the problem, or maybe
the challenge happens for artists, the challenge
for them is they don't recognize that and then
so they try to, they wanna commodify their work,
they wanna be successful, they wanna be an artist.
And they don't have that agony to write and then
it's kind of manufactured. Or maybe they start
with agony and then it fades? There are, I think
there are people who are creative and they can
be creative. and they are like so intelligent
and emotionally, I don't want to say emotionally
stable, but like, how do you say it? Emotionally
regulated. There you go, emotionally regulated.
And they create. And then there's the other kind
of people who can only create because of like
that misery and agony. But I think what they
need to recognize is they're using it as a tool
to address, you know, some kind of mental challenges,
problems, whatever. I can say, like, I'm not
naturally, I don't think I'm naturally creative,
but when I was, when I used to write in the past,
it was all because I was angsty. Like a little
scene kid. Not that I had the hair. Why aren't
you turning on poetry right now? I think about,
right? Like, I think, like, wow, I love the poems
I wrote, but I don't have that kind of motivation
for it. I don't have those people, because I
don't have those people that, like, I'm, like,
obsessed over. For me, the poetry was a tool.
Little Luigi, it was a tool for Little Luigi.
It was kind of dishonest when I wrote, you know?
Because what it really was was me being like,
I'm gonna write this poem and she's gonna fall
in love with me. Kind of, kind of, kind of slimy.
What a slimy thing. Shame. Shame on Little, Little
Luigi. So bad. That's why I can't write, I think.
Unless I'm like, maybe someday. Or there could
be a myriad of reasons why I don't write, you
know? Creativity could have been bred and shamed
out of me, you know? In the world, because it's
not practical, you know? I get my legs up on
this couch. For me, as an adult, I'm just, you
know, you go to work, you make money, and that's
it. I can't reconcile just being creative for
the sake of being creative. I find it really
interesting when I speak to non -writers. Yeah.
Because I have no choice but to write. Yeah.
A poem starts in my head. And that's it, like.
Yeah, I understand that. And there's no like,
I guess like, yeah, I could ignore it. Like I
could be like, no, not today. But like, I would
say that almost some of my writing is involuntary,
like to just need to get it out. Not even like
all dark ones, some of them, you know. Yes. Yeah,
yeah. Some of them positive, some of them love,
some of them, you know, frustrations at the world
because the world sucks. Sure. But. Yeah, they
just form. So when I speak to people and they're
like, oh, I'd have to sit and think about writing
a poem. And I'm like, man, that's what I would
do. No, I understand that because there was a
time in my life when I was just motivated to
write and I always wrote because I had ideas
and I wanted to get them out there. And so I
wrote all the time about just a myriad of topics.
But now it just doesn't happen. And I'm just,
I don't know, old and adulty. I just want to...
make a humble living. I don't know, that kind
of urge is not there. Maybe I'll get it back
someday. I'm really old, a lot of poets do that.
Do you like any other forms of creativity? Like
do you like draw or like make other things? Okay,
so like I loved, again, a long, long time ago,
before this didn't sound bad, before I came to
China to work, you know, and started my career
here, you know, cooking, writing, you know, about
whatever, restaurants, writing just like academic
think pieces. Like those are my forms of creativity.
When I was younger, I liked theater and acting
and I worked in theater and stuff like that.
But then when I just came here and had to like,
like I said, be an adult, I guess, you know,
you just get up, go to work, manage your money,
et cetera. So those, those like drives are gone
in some respect. And I think objectively it is
kind of sad. but I just don't have that drive
anymore, it's disappeared. But there are some
things, I think it manifests in different ways,
so like we're creative in different ways, like
I like, this sounds lame, like me and my houseplants,
like I like my houseplants, I like them a lot,
I like to grow them. We still have, we still
have like these connections to like be creative
and create, they might just not be as uh like
overt maybe let's say. I think that One of your,
one of the expressions of creativity that I have
seen from you. Arguing. It's an art form. You
spent today, you spent like 30 minutes on your
own volition. More than that, making sure that
just that one... Was in the right spot. Yeah,
I do like... That's not neuroticism, that's creativity,
I think. It's focused on the shot and placement.
Right, yeah, well that's true. Yeah, that's creativity.
That's not superficial at all. I think it's kind
of superficial. Yeah, I agree, that's the kind
of creativity. I think what you mean is that
it's not necessarily that it's superficial, but
it's not like... what society, brands and ties
in a bow as what creativity is, which is kind
of part of the problem. Not overtly, yeah, there's
this kind of, it's weird because that is, that
what I was doing I think is probably one of the
most important kinds of creativity that people
don't pay attention to because it's so, it's
so pervasive and like natural. It orbits around
like how, we're such a specular society now because
of, you know, social media, YouTube, all these
things are planned. how they set up, how everything's
staged, but it's in the background and people
don't really pay attention to it unless it's
so horrendous, it kind of takes you out of the
experience, right? And we still have these ideas
of the creative as being this kind of cliche
caricature of an artist. That makes sense? Exactly,
yeah. It's like the more practical creative things
we think, they're so normalized. we don't pay
attention to them as being. What about authenticity,
then? Does it exist within our society right
now? And the reason I ask this is because, like,
going back to high school, one of the... In order
to graduate English, we had to write a confrontational
speech. And mine was, originality is non -existent.
Only authenticity remains. And my opinion or
definition of authenticity was like the authentic
idea, the root of something. For example, even
if you look at binoculars, it's just an augmentation
of sight, right? And sight is the authentic thing
that you're playing with. And there's nothing
original that exists anymore. So, but now we
like from a different perspective of authenticity,
is there authentic social media? Because I would
like to think that this is authentic, even though
there are elements of staging. Okay. I have kind
of a gripe with the buzzword of authenticity.
I don't like it. I don't like... When people
say, like, I'm being authentic, I don't know.
I'm always skeptical of that. I don't know what
it is. Authentic right now, I think that's a
flag moment. Same with people calling themselves
woke. Woke. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you say you are
woke, you are not woke. You're performing. It's
a performance. We have to really define these
terms though. I don't even think people can define
what woke is and I don't even want to try and
give it a definition right now. Okay, I'll do
it. Okay, go for it. You guys can tell me how
I do. Woke comes from the 1930s. Black American
culture. And it was used to identify or it was
used to identify people who were able to highlight
and understand the systemic oppressions that
existed within their society and around their
culture. Those were work people. And since then,
it has been appropriated by... I don't want to
say Democrat because... No. Left people on the
left? People on the left. To... be a much broader
sense of outside of only black culture in America,
like all systems of oppression, all systemic
snuffings of freedom in a way. And then I think
that some people on the very far left maybe took
some elements of being woke a little bit too
far too quickly. And that's a very touchy thing
because I'm struggling with that. with my own
opinion on that right now but then what happened
is someone on the right with enough influence
became so offended by this one person standing
up for their rights and trying to highlight something
and there was such a disconnect of understanding
that the right appropriated woke as an insult
and did what and now we're stuck with with this
rhetoric that is happening today and you get
truly woke people I think there's three of them
sitting in this room. But then you get people
that are being performative in their statements.
Right. Sure. And disingenuous. And then you get
people on the right trying to insult us. Hard
idea. I'm glad that you at least had like the
origins correct. Because I was like, oh, please
don't make me school you on the origins of the
word and why I'm not OK with it. So kudos. OK.
Proud of that. You said appropriated. I would
say from the start it was misappropriated. It's
a word that was taken by people who it was never
intended for. And I think that's part of my issue
with it. I am all for people. Cross -culture
sharing is fantastic when it's a sharing. But
time and time again, people who are white, Caucasian,
however we want to say it, have... taken things
from people of colour for their own purpose and
I feel like this is exactly what what the word
was used for you know taking something that wasn't
originally ours to be like hey I'm so cool I'm
so down with the peeps and actually not really
understanding even the origins the amount of
people who don't know where the word came from
what it was originally intended for and I just
think well how can you possibly embody a word
if you don't know if you don't know what's come
before it And I think that's the issue that I
take with it. So I think you're right in saying
that there are certain buzzwords that actually
get my heckles up a little bit as well, because
I'm a bit like, but what do we even mean by that?
Hashtag a token word that we can throw in that
will get ourselves views. Back to the originality
versus authenticity. I see what you mean in that
actually. Everything is a replication in some...
in some way which you know is inevitable when
the world has existed for this long. I think
back to music quite a lot when I have discussions
about originality because there's what like 16
notes and whenever people are like oh this has
the same chord progression I can play 24 songs
that rely on c e g so you know there's there
are you know certain limitations in that you
know until we create something new and that is
an argument of itself do we ever really create
something new? you know if we think of AI was
it created or was it just did we discover it
so you know there's there's so many there's so
many arguments to say that yes actually nothing
is in and of itself original I think that the
kind of part of your authenticity is with being
original with the material I think that's phrasing
I feel a bit more comfortable with than like
authentic okay fair enough I've had this conversation
with a lot of people and they're synonymous.
Two words, originality and authenticity. I would
say the lexicon is quite different because original
is to do with the origins of something and how
it was created. Whereas authenticity is more
about what you've done, who you are. Honesty?
Yeah, see that's why they're there's such it's
such a difficult turn can you be original and
inauthentic oh You create something you still
be a disingenuous person That thing is it is
it an authentic thing? This is a very because
authenticity is around the truth of something
right like is it is it what it claims to be I
don't know that's the that's the problem with
the word is that so many people define it in
certain ways, in certain contexts. So we could
very well say, this is what it means in this
context for us. And... Greatest. But for me,
I think like it seems like it seems so because
everyone's trying to define it as something specific.
And that's why I'm kind of just like, eh. Because
words have multiple meanings in different contexts,
so authentic or authenticity is definitely one.
Trust me, I've had this conversation about the
meanings of our word quite a lot. Right, but
usually how we're looking at it is I guess in
like a kind of academic context, which I just
can't, I don't think I have the capacity to really
pin down. I think that words should probably
somewhat, never mind, I don't want to say that.
Now I want to know. Scandalous. Maybe words should
be updated more often with more definitions or
there should be a progression of definitional
updates within a dictionary. I think it's to
do with what someone does with the word, isn't
it? There's how many people on this board with
multiple different thoughts, feelings and wonders.
they're going to, you know, human nature is to
make sense of things in a way that we can relate
to. By categorizing, right? And everyone's category
is going to be different because everyone's lived
experience is different, their heritage, their
culture, where they live, where they're coming
from, where they're going, etc. So to be able
to find, like, for subjective terms, there isn't
going to be like a black and white, this is what
it is, because everyone's experience is so different.
Yeah. And anything outside of objective science
is subjective. And even objective science is
logical. Mass. Well done, mass. That's true.
Yeah, so I think it's just, you know, the word.
Morality, if you're a Christian. Joking. Good.
Yeah, but again, these things are so hard to
pin down because it depends on so many, you know,
groups of people making an argument for something
and using it as a tool to get others to understand
it. That's how I look at it. So that's why for
me, authenticity. Oh, I never really liked that
word. And there was a period maybe 10 or 15 years
ago when it was so overused that people were
kind of like, what does it really mean? And so
now I don't even I just stay away from it. which
is, it's not very good of me to do, but, you
know, I can think of in education when they say,
you know, they want, you have to use unauthentic
text for the students and that has a very specific
meaning in the context of education. Okay, so
I asked this question based on the art and the
performance of... Okay, the reason I asked this
question was because you mentioned social media...
and the way that everything is staged. And then
I said, well, is it authentic or is it original?
And really the reason I ask those questions is
to bring it back to how does that affect the
mental health of viewers? Because we spoke about
it before as well, and I mentioned the social
bubbles that we put ourselves into through social
media. Where nobody wants to post bad things.
Nobody wants to talk about mental health issues.
Nobody wants to say how sad they are online.
I think a lot of people do. Now that you say
that, I think that's true too. But for the vast
majority of social media posts, it's done to
make people look good. I would say that the people
who do do it, it is kind of performative, and
I'm always skeptical of someone putting that
part of their life on social media. Is that a
problem? I think it is problematic, yeah. What
do you think, or the fact that they put it on?
It depends why they're doing it. If it's like
a cry for help, then it's one thing. But I think
for the most part, it's they want a bunch of
clicks. They want, you know, a million views.
They want to monetize themselves. So when I,
this is my opinion is when I see things like
that, I think they're not really being honest.
I could be wrong. I think it depends on the context
of which they've posted as well. You know, if
the rest of their content is... not of that way,
and then they post like a singular post of them
crying or saying that they're really struggling.
Why do that? That I would struggle with. I mean,
I follow quite a few accounts that are, you know,
based on mental health or, you know, shadow work
growth, all that type of stuff, which actually
regularly there are creators, you know, exploring
the worst sides of, you know, being neuro spicy,
having a specific mental health condition, etc.
So like, in that context, it doesn't feel out
of place and therefore There's very little skepticism.
Right, that's one thing. Those are tools to help
people with mental issues. But it's the person
who just films himself crying out of nowhere.
You have to wonder, are you really in pain? Because
you made the conscious choice to turn on your
phone and cry, and then upload it. So I don't
know if that's really honest. I can see... Okay,
that connection and that question, I can see
the validity of it. Because I would think...
I've often, now, I'm trying to post more and
I'm trying to gain traction. I want to be paid
for putting things online. But then I see some
of the things that people post and I think, how
could I do that? And then you see 10 ,000 people
are doing the trend. And then I'm like, well,
fuck that shit. I don't want that. But it's tempting.
And I can see how then my content can be... degraded
into fucking fluff pieces about me opening my
eye. Okay. So with that in mind, are we recognizing
that we are entertaining first? Does it have
to be honest if it's just for entertainment?
Or is it honest because it is just entertainment?
But this is what I want to say. I think that
talking about and Posting on social media and
receiving an empathetic response from people
should be normalized. It shouldn't be a bad thing
for someone to share their pain. No. And they
shouldn't be necessarily seen as disingenuous.
I think that questions are fair. If you've posted
yourself just randomly crying with no reason,
and if you're posting yourself, nobody plans
to cry. So how are you filming your tears? I
think that's the thing. For me, it all comes
down to what feels like the intent. So if someone
is, you know, sharing themselves crying or sharing
themselves, like in a really bad way, having
a panic attack, dealing with suicidal idealisation,
to share with the intent of, you know, education,
outsourced community, that makes sense to me.
But that would all... be evident in the content
and the context. All of the creators that I follow
would never just have a post, for example, that
has something that could be triggering. There's
always a cover. There's always a content or a
trigger warning. And for me, that feels very
intentional and I can see the purpose of them
sharing that. And I think that's what makes me
buy into it a little bit more. So I think the
posts that seem disingenuous or like they're
just for attention or traction tend to not have
that. The intent of them just wanting attention
or wanting traction I think comes across quite
clearly for someone who does engage with that
type of content. So I think that's why for quite
a few people it probably doesn't land very well.
This comes into my topic that I wanted to talk
about. Which is spicier. I try to bring in the
lightheartedness. It's about consent. And it's
about fucking. And sex. And sex positivity. And
my perspective is consent isn't spoken about
enough outside of the idea that you know through
essay. And then it's too late. consent feels
like rules but really it's a playpen because
you set up the rules and you have your area for
consent and that's how it should be and everybody
should be clear on that and sometimes you get
into a position where you tell someone okay i
can see what you want this is what i need and
then suddenly they disappear well then that's
a problem i think 99 % of people don't understand
what consent is No, I would agree with that.
I also think as well, you know, when we're here
saying that consent isn't spoken about enough,
the fact that consent is only spoken about within
a sexualised way as well is just wild. And that
is partly, partly due to the world that we live
in, you know, trying to create people that are
not autonomous, rethinking people, because, you
know, that is the intention of this world. You
know, children, for example, should be taught
that they have consent, they have bodily consent
of what? people do. So I have quite a few spicy
discussions with friends when I arrive and they're
like, oh, give Jess a hug. And the kid clearly
doesn't want to. And I've actually lost the best
friend over this. I hadn't seen my best friend
for about two years. We visited with their son,
who is highly autistic, hadn't seen me for two
years, probably didn't recognize who I was, which
is absolutely understandable. And my friend tried
to force them to give me a hug. And instantly
I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's all
good. It's all good. You're a good bud. And yeah,
my friend was really mad about it. And I tried
to have a conversation with them to be like,
yo, this little human has bodily autonomy. You
know, you should be teaching them that actually,
they don't have to be touched if they're saying
no, they need to understand the value of their
no. And actually, I don't think that this is
something that we're teaching children. So of
course then, how do we have the language? How
do we have the understanding to then have it
within a sexualized day? Yes, really, really
well. Start young. Let's go. I've never thought
about it from the perspective of, yeah, children
and bodily autonomy and things like that. Like
something as innocent as, you know, saying, oh,
go hug your aunt. But it's a very good point.
Yeah. That's part of why now suddenly it's not
fun anymore. Now it's great. Now you gotta take
it serious. Sorry. No, it's fair because, OK,
if this is where it needs to go, it needs to
go here. Yeah. Because this question, this statement
directly goes into the consent of a woman saying,
I don't consent to having this child that is
growing inside me. And then you have people who
don't understand consent and think that that
woman must now be forced to have that child.
Okay, so when we were driving over here, I told
Luigi what my topic was, and I asked him, define
consent in three words. And I couldn't do it.
Couldn't you? Because I'm reading a book on consent,
actually, and it's so complicated of a topic
that I'm just overthinking, and I just can't
really put it in three words. I can give you
three words. Okay, wait, let's see what her three
words are. Let's see if they're the same as mine.
Do you want to write them down? Okay. Originally,
it was four words, but it can be three. Just
slightly less. Well done. Here we go. That was
one. The other one was... It's three words. It's
four words. OK. Sorry. Cheat. Four words. Maybe
there's another one. I don't remember. Is that
the one? Yeah. OK, go. OK. Enthusiastic. Oh,
that was it. Reversible. Yes. I said retractable.
So mutual, freely given, or enthusiastically
given, and retractable at any point. Talk about
this at some point. So there's something that
already says this about consent? BDSM. Yeah.
Whenever anyone says to me, how do you know so
much about sex and consent, because I do consent
workshops, BDSM has taught me more about what
I have the ability to say I want or not want
than anything else in my life. Right. As well
as giving me the tools to start navigating how
to do that, which, you know, as a people -pleasing
little neuro -spicy bean. Sure. Not my biggest
skill. Right. So yeah, I think that gives a certain
lens to looking at consent. And it's also, I
think, what a lot of the, you know, the typical
tropes that you hear about when, you know, there
are lots of people who sexually assault someone
and they do not realize that they are sexually
assaulting them. Yeah. I think that's almost
sadder than all of the sexual assaults coming
from people that knew. But, you know, the, oh,
but they said yes. Were they drunk? Were they
enthusiastic? Did you pressure them? Were they
coerced? Without having those nuanced understandings
of that enthusiasticness, that being able to
reverse it, you know, the whole thing of, oh
well. They said that, like, they were thinking
about this. It's like, yeah, but did they say
in this specific moment, I want you to do text
to me? For me, in all of my lessons, when I teach
this with younger people, it always brings me
back to the tea video. I don't know if you've
seen it, but I absolutely love it. Explain it.
Essentially, like, there's a couple of different
things. You know, if someone says they'd like
to come over for tea, and then they change their
mind and they want something else to drink, that's
OK. don't try and pour it down their throat.
If someone says they want tea and then they fall
asleep, you know, don't choke them on it. And
it's all these type of little scenarios of how,
you know, someone can revoke their consent that
they've given and actually like, don't be a dick
about it. But it's such a good video. That is,
it's funny you bring that up because that is
in the book I'm reading. I've been reading this
book for so long in bits and one of the... One
of the parts is consent is not like blah blah
blah tee. Gotta find out what it's called. Give
me a second, folks. Talk amongst yourselves.
What is it called? So I've been approached by
people who claim to be experienced mistresses
or whatever, sadists. And they're just not. Because
they don't even begin to understand consent.
It's crazy to me. And that's why I think that's
why a lot of these... Oh, that's what it's called.
The Joy of Consent. That's what I'm reading.
Cool. By French thinker Néanone Garcia. That's
her name. But that's why, yeah. It's a complicated
topic, obviously. There's like the superficial
aspects of it, which is like, you know, asking
permission and knowing how to interpret it. Well,
maybe that's kind of cut and dry then. you know,
as a concept, as an idea. Any questions? What,
consent? My topic? I think people's understanding
of it isn't, though, because, you know, we've
seen time and time again, you know, the stats
on, you know, female SA are devastatingly high.
Yeah. And when you look at, you know, conversations
like, you know, a bear or a man, the backlash
of that. And, you know, the lack of understanding
of just how pervasive the, I guess, the fear
of non -consensual activity through lived experiences,
particularly for a woman or female -presenting
person, is, you know, it's wild. But actually
so many don't understand the nuances about it.
Yeah. How can we fix it? How can it be fixed?
What's needed? to fix the world. I think that
beyond starting younger and discussing consent
within a wider frame and a wider context, even
using the word more, consent has always been
made to feel like a dirty word, something that
shouldn't be spoken about, similar for some groups,
even just discussing sex. And actually, I...
If a friend shares a picture with me that I haven't
consented to see, I will actively use that word.
And yes, it causes arguments and it makes people
uncomfortable. But if someone, for example, forwards
me a picture of one of their partners, which
I'm polyamorous, I have had that happen, to be
like, yo, A, I don't consent to seeing that.
B, do you have consent to share it? you know,
normalizing use of that word. And I think unfortunately
a lot of it comes down to is just that lots of
humans do not treat other humans decently. And
that's something that's cultivated. That's not
something that, you know, we are asked to focus
on when we are younger, when we're teens. That's
something that's almost bred out of us because
if we are willing to use and abuse each other,
then the higher -ups get more out of us. Do you
think there's... Like confusion between Because
I hear what I hear how you're using consent the
word But do you think people consider consent
and permission interchangeable words or they
very different things like if I said I don't
give you permission to Let me you know to show
me that could it be the same as saying I don't
give consent. I think it's similar Yeah, but
I think in in the world that we live in we're
almost Courage to you know to not say when someone's
done something that upsets us, to kind of just
let things go, to have clearer boundaries. So
I think even things like permission is still,
you know, something that most people would link
to like, you know, a permission form for something
specific, et cetera, as opposed to, you know,
something that should guide your daily actions.
Right, yeah. Yeah. Deep thoughts. Like, I'm still
dealing with a lot of... Sometimes I... I think
the reason that this is such a touchy topic for
people is it directly calls into question every
single action that they've ever done in their
life. And there are going to be times in everybody's
life where they have violated consent in some
way. It's not going to relate to necessarily...
a heinous crime, but I think everybody violates
consent. Are you talking about consent in a sexual
sense or just consent, anything? In general.
In general, okay. Sure, yeah, people making assumptions,
yeah. But then also by extension for most adults.
Now is that because? Sexual as well. Right, now
is that because it's implied? See, this is the
thing. This is the problem. This is the straw
the challenge of consent is that it's not clearly
defined like Okay, every culture has different
ideas of consent and like you're in Europe for
example in France their ideas of consent are
different than America American consent the idea
is way more strict than let's say France and
so, you know, there's that that becomes the challenge
of defining it and Really policing it. I'm talking
about consent between two people more than society's
concept of what consent is. But between two people,
that idea is a result of how they're socialized
around the concept. Yeah, sure, but in any situation
like that, one of them is the power dynamic is
not equal. It's never equal. No. No matter what.
And I think that with partners, consent evolves.
I'm not saying that it evolves beyond the boundaries
that we've set and the definitions, but the way
that is given and revoked and managed during
an interaction of any kind evolves into something
different. It becomes maybe a more mature, more
nuanced version of... revocation and give a like.
For example, if you, tell me if I'm wrong. If
you are with, and tell me if I'm wrong. If you're
with a partner and you've been with this partner
for a long time, they can revoke their consent
to do something in that time, even if you've
done it before, with a sound. or a movement,
or a look. And you will know what that means
because you know them intimately. But yeah, so
that's my point is like it can evolve over time.
I think looking back to what you're talking about,
Luigi, yeah, there are different understandings
of consent. And I think the biggest aspect of
that is generational. You know, if we look back
30, 30 years. horrifyingly in some cultures less
than that. You know, consent wasn't something
that was discussed because, you know, it was
a man's right. So actually these nuanced discussions
around consent for some cultures are, you know,
really quite young. We look at, you know, let's
adjacent. I hate that word. If we look at laws,
there are some countries where up until the early
2000s, men were legally allowed to rape their
wives. So in a cultural context of that. you
know of course there's going to be some blurring
lines and I think you know when we take I would
say people who are of our generation we're kind
of straddling two sides of kind of we grew up
learning from what we saw in TV media our parents
perhaps and that was kind of the old ethos whereas
you know moving into a space where it is more
acceptable to have these open discussions about
it like you know even I was engaging in BDSM
when I was younger than I should be. And even
then I didn't have the language and no one had
ever taught me I had the language. And it wasn't
until maybe 10 years ago when I'd been practicing
BDSM for over five years that I realized that
I was allowed to say yes and no to certain things.
I was allowed to say yes or no between scenes
with the same partner. And I think the ethos
around it has changed a lot because before that,
you know, even outside of marriage, my first
experience of heteronormative sex was as the
woman, I accept whatever the man is giving and
wants. So I think, yes, there is some there is
some blurred lines, but I think that's a time.
Do you think that was like a like a cultural
construct of like being woman? Like, you just
kind of passively accept a man's behavior in
that respect, like, you know, oh, boys will be
boys. I guess I can't, like you said, you don't
know about consent. I think that was part of
it, particularly as someone who I had come to
terms with my own queerness at that point. But
definitely when I was with male partners, I felt
the need to be that feminine stereotype. Right.
Interestingly, I started having conversations
about what we do or didn't want, and that's kind
of how consent was initially framed when I first
started learning about it, with women far younger
than with men. And even now, I find having these
conversations with women far easier. There are,
you know, certain groups of men that seem really
receptive and really willing to have those conversations,
particularly if you open them up. But I have
still had, you know, in recent years, men turn
around to me and be like, we don't need to talk
about this, and instantly be like, goodbye. So
it's definitely a shift and a cultural shift
at that as well. But yeah, I think there is so
much to one pick and ultimately you have to want
to. And there are still just some people, because
of who they are, because of how they've been
brought up, that don't care. and therefore don't
want to learn and don't want to navigate having
these discussions or engender an understanding
of consent. So they don't care about these things.
Do you think, why don't they care about these
things? Because we know it's bad. Like we know
not giving consent is bad. So what I can't understand
is why these people don't have no fear of them
doing something bad. If you can rape someone
and still be president, why would they be fair?
Fair enough. Yeah, terrible. But yeah. That's
a very good point. I'm still coming to terms
with and learning about a lot of these things
and breaking down my own misogyny that was ingrained
in me. And I think a lot of... But to answer
your question, I think it's just the patriarchy.
I know that right now for a lot of people that
will sound just radical and then they just...
They think radical feminists and then they shut
it down or they reject it. They think buzzwords.
They've had buzzwords, exactly. Yeah. We have
to figure out a way to work around these buzzwords
that just shut it down because of rhetoric. Anyway,
recently I made a comment on Facebook. It was
a radio show about why Father's Day isn't big.
Why Father's Day isn't as big as Mother's Day.
My comment was, I don't remember exactly what
the conversation was, but basically one of the
questions was, should we cancel Father's Day
altogether? Because there are some fathers that
are good. Anyway, my comment was, and then you
get some men who complained, who will complain
about this being canceled. But the bottom line
is show up. and then we'll have a discussion.
Right. Show up first. The reaction was that a
whole bunch of fathers replied to me, right?
And they're like, you know, we're here, you're
just ignoring us, this is erasure, blah, blah,
blah, blah, whatever. But none of my comments
were about that. The point is society has created
a scenario where even good fathers by no fault
of their own are stuck at work bread -winning
and they will think that a comment like that
targets them explicitly because I'm saying that
they they they are assuming that I'm saying that
they're bad fathers and then they'll be like
there are bad mothers there are absent mothers
you know of course there are nobody made that
claim But your problem isn't with the fact that
you can't be at school on Father's Day. Your
problem is by the fact that you are stuck at
work and not able to go. And that problem is
because of the patriarchy. Because you are supposed
to be the breadwinner in your heteronormative
society. So fix that first and then show up for
feminism and then we can talk. It's equal. You
think that will fix consent? How did I go from
there to consent? I think that yes, when the
power dynamic shifts to something that is seen
in society as truly equal. Oh yeah, definitely.
Where gender norms are broken down to a point
where it doesn't really matter. what you are,
how you present and who you feel like. And I
think that's probably why there are, you know,
less issues. And I'm not saying there's none,
because of course there always is, but there
statistically are less issues with consent in
BDSM where there is less distinction of power
in terms of the power to gender ratio or queer
couples. So... addressing that would kind of
hopefully help. Yeah, exactly, because in a BDSM
scene, it's really the masochist who has all
the power. The sub holds ultimate power, and
only Dom, who says they don't, is not left the
way insult. Exactly, because that is the person
who says, we stop now. Who sets the parameters
of which it takes place. But they both agree
to consent. so okay do you both this is for both
you uh do you think consent is a contract between
two people it's an on i think it's an ongoing
agreement contract i was going to ask if you
would use agreement as um transposable for contract
for me they're different words that some people
see them as the same like a contract you necessarily
like sign on a piece of paper but consent is
And to it and once the terms have been agreed
on it it carries on but that might see the challenge
was instantly revocable It's an ongoing agreement
that can be ended by either party at any moment
sure or amended or amended Yeah, and that might
be why consent is such a tricky topic especially
in law because it it is contractual but paradoxically
it's it's not because people essentially they
they can break it but it It's almost like it
shouldn't be broken once you agree. That's that's
where people that's where let's say the the bad
The bad people get angry, you know, you broke
the contract so they feel like they've been What
what's the word such yeah, that's such a rabbit
hole because the moment you said that I thought
oh You know that trans panic. It doesn't make
it right. Definitely Like, a person should be
able to change their mind, but I think that's
one of the big challenges with consent, especially
in, like, you know, law and things, is that when
bad things go down, when bad things happen...
Can I not plug it in? When bad things happen,
they can't... They can't, I forget, I don't know,
I lost the train of thought. They can't defend
themselves? Is that not just like the same as
the men who expect, like expect sex? So for example,
you know, that's just like, that's just bad.
It's just toxic masculinity. Like that's bad.
But it's kind of similar, isn't it? It's a similar
way of thinking. That's kind of like coercion.
Those men who do... who, you know, force themselves
on women and the women acquiesce. I think that's
a form of coercion and it's bad. But even without
like pushing themselves on them. So for example,
like I've been on dates and I've had like a guy,
a guy offer to pay and me be like, no, I'm okay,
thank you. Because I stopped letting men pay
on the first date because that led to so many
conversations around, oh, I paid for your dinner.
So what do you mean we're not going back to your
house? And that happened quite frequently, more
often than not, which is why it led to me no
longer allowing people to pay because that payment
seemed to be considered transactional for sex.
And I think that is the mindset that I mean kind
of akin to the concept of consent being like...
Well, I've signed the contract. I've said yes.
Yeah, it's it's that similar paradoxical mindset
of right. Oh, this is well, this is kind of comes
down to a man's expectation of my right. Right.
Exactly. Which is so in your younger years, you,
you, you, you kind of you accepted that when
they paid for dinner, you thought, oh, I guess
I have to. Yeah, there are definitely times when
I have done things with people that I felt obliged
to. There are times when I felt unsafe to say
no. Right, yeah, there's another big issue. There
are times when I had said no and then was coerced
or convinced. Here's something that I think is...
What are the cool aspects of consent working?
is all of a sudden what becomes okay. Once you
have a proper playpen set up and the agreement
is there and trust is built, objectification,
sexualization, all of these things suddenly become
acceptable within the framework of consent, fetishization,
everything. And that, to me, is much more exciting
than the effort it takes to get consent to to
a point, and if only people could understand,
like, oh, if I engage with this structure, this
contract or agreement in a proper way, then this
person's body is my oyster. Right away. Yeah.
But again, it comes down to like being given
those tools. And unfortunately, you know, there
are, you know, if we look at, for example, Tramporty
Long's kids, you know, they're not going to have
been taught how to have conversations about a
woman's body. I don't know about that. Not Trump,
but Elon has a transgender child. He's disowned.
Yes, but she's still his kid and she's still
intelligent. No, no, no, no. I think that she
discovered that on her own and she will happily
inform her siblings about it, but it's not going
to come from Elon. So you think those kids just
won't learn about it? I think they won't be given
appropriate tools to have conversations in the
way the modern world expects. I think the world,
I think they have those things. I think they
have access to them. I think it's an issue of
power. And that's a kind of class issue. Like
they understand where they are in the world.
And if they are true, not saying they are, but
if they're bad people. If they're bad people,
they'll do bad things because they have, you
know, so much power to exercise. Anyway, which
is terrible. That's just another topic. You're
right. I brought it back to Nazis. I think I
went there with Elon. We can take mutual responsibility
there. I had no idea Elon Musk's family were
Nazis in Canada. I had no idea. I think his dad
is pretty woke. Actually, I'm using that term.
In a way, like... Tolerant? Tolerant, understanding,
progressive, liberal, advocate for equal rights
in South Africa. But owns diamond mines, or emerald
mines. Owns a diamond mine, so... Yeah, exactly,
emerald mines. I'm not sure how far that goes,
but he was part of the... by the groups within
the universities that fought for equal rights.
How that squares with him marrying an actual
Nazi, I have no idea. So... He didn't know she
was a Nazi. Great. I don't think Nazis are good
at hiding what the heart wants. The heart wants
what the heart wants. When you love somebody,
you will accept how crazy their family is, right?
How many times do we hear that? This is not...
A rose by any other name would still smell as
sweet in that way. I just don't think you've
loved someone so much that you just have to accept
their crazy family. That's the cliche. I'm reporting
from popular culture. I certainly haven't. Elon's
mom, I don't think she was... It wasn't like
her family was that and she wasn't. I think she
was actually also. I'm not sure. No more diverging
to Nazis. Go back. That's coming back to consent.
Okay, so consent. Should we depend on the law?
to help us no with consent no really no why because
it's written by men for the purpose of men i
was just gonna say not all men there must be
some women law female lawmakers come on it's
all made luigi until it's no men i understand
like yeah consent even in even in law the the
like This is something I learned recently. I
don't know if it's criminal law or there's so
many terms for law, but the point is if a contract
is made and it still disrupts the social order,
it is null and void according to the law. And
that's why I think when it comes to consent,
the law is important and can be helpful for things
like consent. I think it can be helpful, but
I also think it can be... used to, I guess, uphold
like certain groups' agendas. Take like sex work,
for example. Yeah. I think that someone should
be able to decide whether they consent to selling
their body or services for money. Sure. As well
as someone being able to consent to purchasing
that. But if you think about how many countries
have put laws against either one or both. So
I think the problem with us relying on law for
consent is it becomes a Well, the law says XYZ
and anything else is outlawed. And the criminalisation
of that and typically how that impacts women
and female presenting people, people who are
queer, people of colour. So if you look at, you
know, the types of people, if we continue on
the like, strand of sex work, typically lower
class people, the disproportionate amount of
people who are, you know, people of colour, Hispanic,
etc. and they're already, you know, at risk and
vulnerable. So it's looking at whether the law
gives protection to everyone or just the groups
of people who benefit from those laws. Well,
I would hope the law protects everybody. Unfortunately,
I think it comes into the... Depends on a good
lawyer. We cannot codify... concept. And I think
that consent is a concept based around bodily
autonomy and personal proximity. Well then now
this just depends on just how good human beings
are to each other. You just have to hope, you
know. Anybody who's not a good human being to
someone else is violating consent by definition.
I guess for me I can't reconcile the idea or
the term of consent without some kind of greater
authority to uphold it. And that's where I am
kind of like, oh, consent now is just like a
thing we're saying informally between two people.
OK, but OK, here's the question. Because if something
bad goes, sorry to cut you off, but if something
bad happens, what's the one person going to say?
You were wrong to me. How does the person who
breaks that, you know, contract of consent, the
informal contract of consent, how do they get
punished or not do it again or pay for their
crimes? See, now I'm using a lot of legal language.
Tough. I think those are good questions. Here's
a question. I think sex work is a good allegory
for it. It's your body, right? Okay. And your...
ability to sell your body exists only with you.
And if it's not that, it's slavery. Yeah. And
for someone to deny you that ability directly
affects your autonomy as a human being. Okay,
how about this? Sometimes you have to work or
else you'll starve and die. So really, do you
have a choice? Why do you have to work? To make
money. That's my point. We shouldn't need money.
We shouldn't need money. No. Well, it would be
nice. Like your basic needs food or... should
be provided, right? That's like basic tenet of
all human rights. Okay, who's going to provide
these things? In my opinion, it should be provided
by the state, the community that you live in,
whichever community that might be. And for us,
our communities are ultra massive. So the state.
Because at my heart, basically, what I'm saying
is I learned... So, shouldn't the state, doesn't
the state, or rather shouldn't the state have
a right to create rules to maintain order so
everyone can have their free food and free shelter
and things like that? But who gets to decide
what is and isn't disorder? Like one person saying
that sex work is disorder. We all have to, we
have to have people who represent us and then
they have bigger groups. And elective visuals,
obviously. See, it's complicated. I don't think
anybody's advocating for nobody being a leader
of necessarily some kind of guidance. We spoke
about this yesterday. Some rules are required
for some interactions because that relates directly
to insight. But what shouldn't be controlled
by anyone? is the production of goods. Okay.
And that's communism, right? When the production
of goods at least becomes collectively earned,
then everybody suddenly has food. I'm thinking
of something to say, but I don't want to say
it. I'm just thinking of how to say it. So there's,
you know, people who own the means of production
and then capital and the person selling their
capital. to create something. No more capital.
Means of production goes to the organized state.
You get to keep your farm, but all of your debt
is wiped out. You can keep it or you can move
out. But the crops that you have, the land, becomes
property of the state. You can stay in your house.
You can probably still run the farm. You have
everything you need. And by everything you need,
it's not like, oh, you need... It would be like...
Hey, I'm doing a podcast. You know what I need?
I need five of those cameras. And then those
five cameras get delivered to me. Who's going
to make all those cameras? What if somebody wants
more cameras than you? And they can have them
if they need them. If they need them. That's
the that's the thing, isn't it? If they need
who's going to decide you're needing too much.
And then, OK, so my personal opinion comes like
I like the idea of no, there's no ownership of
of production. That's owned by the state. But
you still own your personal production. The art
that you make is not owned by anybody else. But
that is not something that anyone else needs.
But you might want that. So as a social lubricant,
money may exist for you to purchase some of that
with universal basic income. So you are able
to acquire wealth and get things that you want,
not need. So economic activities that are not
related to the means of production of basic human.
I think that's the thing though as well, like
I would argue that a camera is not a basic human
need. Sure, that's fair. So I think, you know,
when we're talking about... But if I say I want
to do a podcast, I'm starting an entertainment.
But that's still not a basic human need. That's
fair. We're all gonna be farmers and just...
No, no, no. This is it. Perfection. What's it
in? Perfection. Yeah, literally. Run a farm.
Don't have to worry about work. Be able to make
some art. Literally the goal. Well, that's your
goal. Yeah. I think that there's a space for
technology within this perfect communist society.
And I think that nobody's going to say, you can't
have food for yourself. Like, you can still have
your own cow. What if I'm still hungry? What?
Sounds great. We've diverged far from consent.
How did we get here? It comes from rules of this
state. Basically, what I think is what we're
coming to is the concept, at least for this particular
instance of the podcast, the concept of consent
is the discussion is closing. I don't want to
talk about anything. We've been at this for two
hours. Really? Yeah. We're gonna wrap it up!
I loved how you loosened up. I could have talked
about kink. Yeah, you started off a little bit
nervous. I told you, I am really not good at
this type of stuff until it's stuff that I really
care about. Oh, then we should have talked about
shit you really cared about. Don't forget to
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