Mom is like just, she's the core of the family.
She literally is the trunk. She's the giver of
life. And if we don't pour life into her and
she's running on fumes, everybody's going to
suffer. But if we can really give her like strong
foundation and roots, those leaves and those
branches are going to grow beautifully and everybody
benefits. Welcome back to Keep It Good. I'm your
host, Emily. I'm your host, Carly. So last week
we kind of introduced a few of the untold sides
of motherhood. But, um, this week we're going
to get a little bit deeper into that. And we
have a special guest today, Jacqueline Tanner.
Yes. We'd love to introduce her. She is the co
-founder and COO of evolving tree therapy and
welcome to the podcast. Jacqueline. Thank you
so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here
and honored to be your first guest. Yay, this
is a little bit of an experiment guys. Okay.
So you're just going to bear with us everyone
included. So May is mental health awareness month,
but also maternal mental health awareness month.
So this is why it's really special to have Jacqueline
with us today. She is an LPC. And like Emily
said, she is the co -founder of evolving treat
therapy. So let's dive in Jacqueline, I want
to pick your brain. First off, like so many women
struggle with that feeling immediately postpartum
of just feeling off. And a lot of times they
think maybe this is just how it's supposed to
be, you know, your first time mom, everything's
different. So what are some common misconceptions
about postpartum mental health? Yeah, I think
you bring up a good point. A lot of us go into
it and we have no idea. what to expect, or you
only know the little bits and pieces people tell
you. So I think initially our society does us
a disservice by just not talking about this and
how common it is, how normal it is. And like,
there's nothing wrong with you. It doesn't make
you a bad mom. And postpartum, it can last quite
some time. People think right after having the
baby, you know, maybe the first six or eight
weeks, but it actually has been shown that It
can last anywhere two to three years. Um, so
it does take some time. The good news is it usually
does get better progressively through those two
and three years, but I often hear women say,
you know, it wasn't until my child was two or
my kids stopped breastfeeding or, you know, now
that my child is three, I actually have my sex
drive back. Like I, you know, stuff like that.
And it's, it really is. And. You know, it's interesting
because we also, you know, people say postpartum
depression, right? That's like the common one
that everybody thinks of when you think of maternal
mental health. But they call them peak meds,
but it's a whole... cluster essentially of mental
health, things that can happen to people postpartum.
So, you know, the most common yes is the depression.
I'd say second in line to that is anxiety and
people don't realize that having anxiety after
having a baby can be related to the postpartum.
There's also OCD can be really common, prevalent.
Believe it or not, PTSD can also happen. So if
you have some sort of, you know, traumatic birth
or your birth plan doesn't go according to plan
or your baby's in the NICU, there's a lot of
things that, you know, we don't always plan for
when we go in and have this quote unquote plan
in place or what we envision it to look like.
It doesn't always go that way and people can
really be. traumatized from that and just need
extra support. There's also bipolar, which is
just really shifting between different states
of mood, which is common if people have been
diagnosed with bipolar before, but it can happen
after pregnancy as well. And then I would say
the psychosis is the one that we all unfortunately
hear about in the news and people will discount
it and say it's not very common. It's not statistically,
but when you look at just the numbers even in
Connecticut. So if you look at, I think they
say it's like 1 % or 1 to 3%, something like
that. But when we look at all the mothers who
give birth in Connecticut, that's about 50 mothers
a year in the state of Connecticut alone. Wow.
could be struggling with the psychosis piece.
And again, it's nothing wrong necessarily with
mom. It's, it's your body literally goes through
the biggest dip in hormones that your body will
ever experience. And it impacts us in so many
ways. Yeah, that was going to be my question,
you know, because you're saying it can be as
long as two to three years. So, you know, why
would that be? Like some people only have it
for a couple months and some people might have
it longer. Is it hormonal? It can be. Okay. Yeah.
And also it depends to breastfeeding can also,
I mean, cause it continues the shift in hormones.
So that can play a part in it. But you also have
to look at, you know, all the other. pieces of
parenting that's also coming at mom. So it's
like, yes, she's having this hormonal shift,
right? But now she's also responsible for another
human being. She might also be working full time.
What does her village look like? Does she have
people who are jumping in and supporting her?
Is she alone? Is she isolated? Did she just relocate
for a new job or something like that? We're like,
you know, support is so limited. If there's financial
strain on the family, sometimes people don't
have paid maternity or it's not equivalent to
what, you know, they need to survive, that can
actually increase your chances of having postpartum.
Then you've got, you know, the relationship dynamics,
like your husband, you go through this huge shift,
you know, you birth this child, you're now, you
know, taking care of the, you know, primary parent
perhaps, and that completely shifts and they
don't know, you know, who you're kind of evolving
into and that you know, can really weigh on a
relationship to resentments, um, you know, feeling
like they're not doing enough or feeling like
they don't understand why you're not just your,
you know, your normal chipper happy self. Cause
you're sleep deprived and you have a baby that's,
you know, has a lot of needs and you're trying
to learn to balance all of this, like simultaneously
when it's also new to everybody. Yeah, so there's,
there's a lot of factors that go into it. Um,
also if you've struggled with mental health in
the past, that can be predictor. Um, but also
each pregnancy is different. So sometimes people
don't have postpartum with their first and then
do with their second or vice versa. So, um, if
you've experienced, if it's, if you know, you're
having your second, third, whatever, um, and
you've had postpartum with a prior pregnancy,
that also increases your chances of having it.
I feel like with my first one, I had a little
bit of the depression and maybe the anxiety,
maybe even the OCD, but after my second with
the traumatic childbirth, like definitely the
PTSD, I didn't let people drive my babies around
for a year. At least I was just like, I don't
know. But now that you're saying it, I'm like,
oh, I probably should have talked to someone.
Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, I had that. Oh, yeah,
I had that. But like you said, you don't realize
that this is not part of what is the normal.
That's the fear is that is you know the guilt
the shame that there's something wrong with me
that I'm I'm feeling this way or I'm having these
thoughts when in Reality, it's pretty normal.
They say like one in five women. I'm experienced
postpartum They however think it's probably closer
to like one in three because it's under reported
people Yeah, don't want to share how they're
truly feeling for fear that something's gonna
happen. They're gonna not let my baby go home
from this visit with me or they're going to send
me somewhere and I'm going to be separated from
my baby. So a lot of times, oftentimes people
don't admit when it's happening. Yeah, I feel
very blessed. I don't feel like I had much of
any of this, but looking back, maybe there was
little things, especially anxiety, but you just
kind of deal with it like, oh yeah, well, I'm
tired. You know, it's just a lot or the baby's
been crying all night long it you know You just
kind of chalk it up to all those things not like
I maybe need a little help You know probably
why it's under Yeah, and I think that's like
the point of it is that such a big scale, you
know, you could maybe only suffer minor symptoms
of this or you can go to the extreme but it's
all yes under this umbrella of these symptoms
that Really should be talked about more. So I
think before you go into birth and not just checked
up on six weeks after There's just such a lapse
in care like you don't see your you don't see
your actual doctor mom's doctor till six weeks
You know unless something bizarre happens, you
know, so there's six weeks. Yeah, you're going
to the pediatrician But again people are scared
to truly fill out some of those questionnaires,
honestly Yeah, and I mean you think about it.
I mean, I feel like we're coming a little bit
better with maternity leave but for men, you
know, so Yeah, because a lot like my husband
I think was home for two weeks and then he was
just like off to work and I would cry You know
cuz I'm like, oh my god, like how can you just
leave me? It's not his fault. We need to pay
the bills, you know, but yeah, I would really
cry and I was like super sad that he would just
leave me cuz then you're just like And so isolating
that's another piece of this that people just
like don't talk about it's like you're You know
your home and you don't know like the difference
between daytime and nighttime I mean you do but
Everything meshes into one because you're waking
up every two to three hours. No matter what time
of day it is typically so You know, it's just
it's it's lonely like and to like just the sitting
and the you know feeding the baby and You're
just, it's so isolating. It's so isolating. And
then, yeah, your spouse, you know, goes back
to normal life, working 40 hours, and then you're
like, oh, okay. Like, so I'm, like, really alone
now. Like, I don't even have, you know, the other
person in my household, so. Yeah. And if you
add in winter, you can't even go outside and
go for walks, you know? Like, that's the part
that really, really hurt me was two winter babies.
Same. I planned that very wrong. Very wrong.
We need spring and summer babies up here in New
England. Yes, we do. We do. Just to get outside
is, you know, even if it's a short walk, it helps.
The fresh air helps so much. Absolutely. Your
business kind of support with yeah. Sure. Um,
so yeah, let me I can explain how evolving tree
evolved after having my second child So yeah
to speak to how pregnancies can be like just
so different my first one. I almost feel like
I was like manic I was like I got this I'm doing
all the things I had all this energy and my house
was beautiful it was just like go go go and I
really wanted a second baby and Again, just no
awareness of how different that could be or how
hard it could be. I can remember being pregnant
with my second and people being like, oh, just
wait. It's going to be so hard. But nobody really
even offered feedback or these are some ways
you could prepare yourself. So I was also like
kind of just like well, that's like not helpful,
you know, like I'm already in this I'm pregnant
like I can't turn around back But everyone's
just telling me like impending doom, you know,
and I was really just like no We'll just do two
of everything like it's it's gonna be fine and
then I had my second and I was trying to sleep
train him and He ended up he has sleep apnea.
So I was like, you know trying to sleep train
a baby who couldn't be sleep trained anyways,
so I'm I'm so sleep deprived and I'm nursing
and my other son was 22 months. So that whole
pregnancy with my second, I didn't get kind of
the rest and the relaxation. The luxury that
you have with your first, like, you know, you're
tired, you take a nap. There's, you know, you're
chasing after a toddler. I was working full time.
So it was just, it was just a lot. And then,
so it's like, I'm now, you know, taking care
of two babies. I'm sleep deprived and it was
just, it was really, really bad. I remember going
to my six week followup and the APRN was like,
so how's everything going? And I literally just
like burst into tears. I was just like, I am
so overwhelmed. My anxiety's through the roof.
I can't sleep at night. And, um. And I don't,
again, I don't think I disclosed this to her,
but you know, because of the same reason that
other people didn't, but I knew like I needed
help because I literally was getting, it wasn't
like an intent or a plan, but I was getting visions
of hanging myself in my basement. And it was
more, I'm like trigger warning. I should have
said that first, sorry. But it was just assigned
to, it was almost like a thought of like, Well,
that's always an option. Like, this is really
fucking hard. And if I can't figure out how I'm
going to manage this, like, you know, but many
women feel like that my kids would be better
off without me. Or like, I'm not a good enough
mom for them. So I just shouldn't try to do this.
So like, I knew at that point, I really like
had to, you know, I went into that appointment
and she up to my antidepressant and she gave
me some like anti -anxiety and she was like you
can take this to sleep but you like need somebody
to watch the baby because you won't be able to
like wake up so thank god you know my mother
-in -law is a saint and she took my baby that
night and let me sleep through the night for
the first time in six weeks and i did i felt
like a new woman i mean my symptoms weren't completely
gone i still was very overwhelmed going from
one to two but i just experienced firsthand how
Difficult this is and isolating and luckily being
in this field, I obviously believe very strongly
in it. So I, you know, I reached out, I found
a postpartum therapist. I started working with
her once a week. She was lovely. Um, and really,
really helpful. And so, yeah, so I had this,
my own personal experience and I ended up bumping
into a previous coworker at daycare pickup. Our
littles were in the same daycare class and we
just started talking and started doing like.
play dates and um I started sharing with her
kind of my experience and she said me too like
you know so hard and all the things and um we
were just realizing like god Mom's just, we need
support. Mom is like just, she's the core of
the family. She literally is the trunk. She's
the giver of life. And if we don't pour life
into her and she's running on fumes, everybody's
going to suffer. But if we can really give her
like strong foundation and roots, those leaves
and those branches are going to grow beautifully
and everybody benefits. So we had started talking
about, we were both therapists and we started
talking about like, what if we created this place?
moms could go to be cared for. Like mom is the
one that's caring for everybody else. So what
if she can go somewhere and get that care that
she's giving all day long to everybody else and
just how wonderful that would be. And also just
a safe space to talk about motherhood. Cause
you know, there's everybody feels guilty saying
that like, sometimes this sucks and it's really
freaking hard and I'm struggling. So a place
where We can just validate that for you, but
like it's okay. It can be like the most wonderful,
beautiful, deep love that you ever experienced.
And you can also hate parts of it and say that
like this is terrible. And my life has been turned
upside down and I don't know who I am anymore.
I just feel like I'm taking care of everybody
else's needs and there's room for it all. You
know, it doesn't make you a bad mom. It makes
you a real person who has needs, wants desires
and like, that's okay. And it's okay to take
care of yourself and give yourself that gift,
you know, like a place where moms can even gather
and start to build that community, that village.
Cause it's also important to find other women
in your life who have children within the same,
you know, age as your children. Cause you might
have friends who have kids, but if they're, you
know, in middle school, it's like they're so
far removed from what it's like to be, you know,
home with your own. Yeah. So it just helps to
have people who are going through the same things.
Yeah. Now, I know it's mainly moms, but like,
do you treat fathers, families in general? Because
I've heard, you know, men can get postpartum
depression, too. And I've known a few that it's
that it happened to, you know, would you be open
to treating men, family. Yep. So we, we work
with, um, moms, we work with non -birthing partners.
We also will work with parents, like as, as a
couple unit, um, so like couples counseling and,
um, yeah, men, that's another piece of this that
again, just isn't talked about. They say one
in 10 men experience some form of postpartum
anxiety, depression, because their whole life
changes too. Like not only does their partner
change, but just their home life changes and
men face a whole bunch of different challenges
as well, you know, feeling like they're not good
enough all of a sudden or they're not making
enough money or they're not the provider that
they thought they could be. Or, you know, they're
struggling with, I don't know what to do with
this baby. I feel really inadequate or I don't
know how to help and support my wife. Like I
can clearly see she's struggling, but oftentimes
men get frustrated and they get angry because
sadness and inadequacy is not valued. with men
in our society. So anger is okay. Um, so oftentimes
like that's what you see because they just, they
feel powerless and that can be really hard for
a male to admit. So whether it's like getting
support for themselves or even just some. Kind
of you know guidance and coaching and reassuring
or even just psycho education on what? You know
your partner is going through and how you might
be able to help with that can just be really
really helpful for couples I Love that. That's
awesome that you just treat the family as a whole
as well, you know, because it really is the unit,
you know That's what it is now. Yeah, it's a
unit. Yeah so you mentioned, you know anger and
and all of that um what about the term mom rage
because i i know i get it from time to time same
yeah and then the amount of guilt you feel afterwards
and it just it's a vicious cycle right because
you like you get to your wits end and then you
lash out and then you're sad terrible and then
you feel guilty and you're like this isn't the
person i want to be um yeah so that's another
part of postpartum that Um, you know, it's not
like a diagnosable thing, but it's very, very
common postpartum. So mom rage essentially is
it's needs that aren't getting met. So. Whether
that's I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating, I'm
not taking care of myself, I'm overwhelmed, I
don't have an identity anymore. I feel like I'm
just giving, giving, giving and nobody's filling
my cup. That's where a lot of the resentments
come in and all these unmet needs make us really
angry. Yeah. I always feel like when I get like
that sometimes with the kids, it's like, I've
never been that person. I've never fought with
anybody. I've never been in a verbal altercation
before. And now I'm going to have my first ones
with my children. Like, what is going on? I've
never been so upset with somebody before. Yeah.
I mean, parenting's hard. It sure is. It's incredibly
frustrating. I mean, You feel like you repeat
yourself literally like 600 times of the same
things and like nobody's listening. You know,
and it's just, it's the frustration of like,
we're coming at it from a adult, you know, fully
developed brain and these children, they're not,
you know, like they won't have fully developed
brains for 25 years. So, you know, we expect
that they're going to listen to everything we
say and do what we're asking. And like, that's
just not, it's not. you know, developmentally
appropriate for them to be able to follow that.
And it's just really incredibly frustrating,
you know, especially when there's other like,
stresses coming down, like I know, you know,
everybody leaving the house is like, just so
hard. And it's like, okay, now we're gonna be
late. And it just all these other pressures start
compiling, you know, as you're rushing, or you
forget something, you know, that's so common.
And then you feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm going
to be judged. I'm the one mom with a kid who
I didn't even bring a diaper back. Like, what
am I doing? You know, like, it's just like, you
know, but it's like you're human. Like, we're
all human. And like, it's okay. It's okay to
make mistakes. And it doesn't mean that you're
a bad mom. It just means that you're human. And
like, there is a lot going on. What would you
say to the mom who does feel guilty or ashamed
about having that, you know, kind of experience?
How would therapy help them? you know, work through
those feelings if they are really stressed. And
I mean, my kids are five and eight now. So like,
I'm dealing with it in a different level of probably
past all that postpartum stuff. But, you know,
what, what would you say to someone like, how
could therapy help them with that? Yeah, so therapy
can really provide you with tools. So coming
up with, you know, things that you can do a just
to take care of yourself. And sometimes that's
setting boundaries or asking for the help that
you need. are setting aside and scheduling that
into your schedule. But it can also just be a
placed event and get validated. And sometimes
even just that validation can really go a long
way to just normalize what we're experiencing.
But there's also a ton of tips and tricks and
identifying when is it that the anger strikes
or what is that around? You know, it could just
be that our environment is chaotic and we're
overstimulated. And, you know, with little ones,
they're banging the same thing over and over.
You've got the TV going, the vacuum going, the,
you know, the washer, the dryer, the dishwasher.
And you're just like, oh my God, I'm going to
lose my mind. Like it's all too much. Or the
dog barking, you know, it's just, it's chaotic.
It's very overstimulating. It doesn't bother
them, but to us, it's just, it adds to like the
chaos, especially if we're not, you know, well.
mentally. So creating different tools and things
that you can do so that you have a little bit
more self -control. But that regular self -care
also can just help with the baseline. So it's
like, if you're feeling better and you're getting
your needs met to a certain degree and you're
able to take that time that you need, you are
coming at it from a different place of coming
at it when you're empty. Yeah, that's great.
You need a toolbox. Yeah, yeah. A lot of times
even just like dividing the load, you know, of
the household can be such a relief and kind of,
you know, like you said, kind of fix that baseline
to begin with and that default parent role. It
kind of happens without even like talking. about
it right it just like you give birth and now
all of a sudden you're the ceo of the family
and yeah and everybody's schedule and everybody's
existence and their doctor's appointments and
their meals and clothing and everything um just
depends on you so yeah so that's another piece
that i feel like on my journey to creating evolving
tree that really i think was the first time that
i felt like so just seen and validated as a mom
um i actually had a client come in and he was
like talking to me about how things were better
with him and his partner. I said, Oh, really?
What changed? And he was like, Oh, we watched
this documentary. And I was like, we're talking
about tree. And he said, um, it's called fair
play. It's on Hulu. And I was like, Oh, so I
went home and I watched it and it was just so
validating. So it talks about the history of
women and. You know, our typical family. So if
you look back to, you know, the 1950s, mom stayed
at home and her goal was to take care of the
house and parent the children and dad. was solely
for income. Well, as, you know, society has changed,
women have entered the workforce. The gender
roles haven't caught up with where we're at and
what the expectations of a mom is. So it's like
now we get to do the all three. We get to take
care of the house. We get to, you know, be the
main parent for the children. And then we also
get to work full time. And that's just like literally
humanly impossible. Yeah. And oftentimes mom
ends up being the default parent. And this isn't,
I want to be very clear. Like there are so many
dads who are amazing and this is not like, you
know, man bashing or dad bashing or partner bashing.
It's more just like, we are all raised in the
same system with the same norms and like they're
victims of this just as much as we are, you know,
like This generation of fathers is so much more
involved than even our generation of fathers
were, you know, like they're changing diapers.
They're, you know, bringing them to practice,
you know, sometimes some dads are staying home
nowadays. I mean, it's awesome. Like there are
huge progress, but they're still oftentimes.
differences as far as like who's handling what
in the households and that really can weigh on
mom because when she doesn't have help with the
parenting and or you know the household chores
it's like it's just it's so much and and the
mental load of caring all that so like just a
simple simple example is like you know the toothpaste
runs low and then the next day a new tooth toothpaste
arrives and Oh, and dad just brushes the teeth,
head on his way. Like he didn't think about that.
But mom is constantly scanning the cupboards,
scanning, you know, making sure, stacking everything
and bringing the kids to the doctor's appointments,
the sports, all of it. Like, it's just, it's
so much. So just really talking about how we
need a shift. Like we've had such a shift with
feminism, which has been amazing. But now it's
like, this is now the calling. What feminism...
was for women, this is now the calling of dividing
up our household labor and doing it as fairly
as we can. And that doesn't always mean 50 -50,
because sometimes we don't work as much, or our
jobs require different things of us. So maybe
it's a 30 -70 split, and that works for you and
your partner. But it's really just coming together
as a team and realizing it's not like, what do
you need help with? We also hate that question,
right? It's like, okay, now I have to make a
list of everything I need to do that I need help
with. Like, you know, you're an adult, like look
around, what needs to be done, you know? But
really like stepping up and figuring out these
are the ways in which you can help our family
and contribute. And yes, I can't scream and say
it enough if you have not seen fair play. I think
it could be wonderful for couples to watch, but
in the very least as a mom, it's so validating
to our experience and just understanding why
this is happening, what it looks like. And she
also proposes solutions. She has like a whole,
she calls it the Fair Play method, but it's essentially
figuring out how to divide the household labor.
And she has a deck of cards. It's like. a hundred
different things that every household kind of
needs to run. And if you own a card, essentially
it's from conception through to execution. So,
you know, if garbage is you, that means your
wife doesn't think about garbage bags. If we
need them, she does not take the garbage out.
She just knows that you've got it. You're taking
it out and she doesn't have to think about it
anymore. And that relieves the mental load for
mom. So the more that dad can take on some of
that stuff, then her burden lessens. And it also
benefits him. That's the other piece. Like your
wife will be nicer later, happier. She might
want to have sex with you if she's not so pissed
off that you haven't done anything today. You
know what I mean? Or like men, oftentimes like
the chores and the tasks that they're traditionally
do is like, you know, the yard work. So it's
a lot of the stuff that gets recognition, people
come over and they're like, Oh, well, your looks
great or whatever, you know, or the different,
you know, home improvements, maybe where mom,
it's like invisible labor, like, she's doing
the dishes and, you know, the laundry and just
all those things that like constantly need to
be done. It's not once a week, she's going out
mowing the lawn. She's, you know, dishes and
laundries all day long. So it's like, it's this
invisible labor too that happens. And I just
think that, you know, there's not a lot of understanding
of how much is on women and how heavy and suffocating
that can be and how much, if you can take some
of that from her, it will just help you. And
it's also to like, you know, educating that next
generation. We want to raise sons and daughters
that don't have these gender roles that jump
in and just want to work together and don't even
know who's supposed to handle what. It's like
we as a family determine that. So, yeah. It's
like our generation right now is, is forming
that bridge to like get it that way. How exciting
that is. Like we're, we're literally leading
the future in, in this whole dynamic, you know,
in how we raise our kids. But I think a lot of
it It just comes down to great communication.
We have to be open and willing to speak about
these things and, you know, to share with our
partner, like, look, I can't do everything and
still be the happy -go -lucky and still want
to jump in bed and, you know, and be your wife,
like, at the end of the night, like, you know,
because it's like... I'm exhausted. Yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, my husband's great. I can't really
complain. I mean, we have very... you know, open
communication, we share everything, we share
all the duties and stuff. But I can imagine if,
you know, he was the typical like, oh, I'm going
to go golfing all day Sunday after you just did
everything all week, like, oh, all right, well,
then you kind of build a little bit of resentment.
And that's not a good addition to the equation,
you know, but it's got to kind of be equal give
and take, you know, and you both deserve that
time. Yeah, you know, like, that's another thing,
like, we look at as a society, like, you know,
men's time is infinite, you know, the golf, the
other things that, you know, is considered normal
men things, but it's like, women don't necessarily
have that, like, they think we just have like
unlimited time to do all the things. And when
we start, you know, valuing, and this goes back
to, you know, Wages and what we pay women and
for the same work as males, you know I mean we
have a long way to go We've come a long way to
not get me wrong We have a long way to go when
we start valuing, you know child care providers
and compensating them appropriately and Valuing
stay -at -home moms because if you add up how
much you would pay somebody to do what a stay
-at -home mom does It's a pretty penny. So like
she's a valuable. We're all valuable and our
time is valuable and if we can respect that in
each other it's only going to help your relationship
and create more homoestasis at home. And who
doesn't want that? We don't want conflict and
resentment. We want everybody to be happy. Yeah,
I mean, Emily mentioned in the last one, right,
when you said like, mom's everything. She's the
CEO. She's the I don't even know what you you
rambled off like the CEO, the event planner,
the chef, the cooker, the cleaner. Yeah, cruise
director. We always joke about that. Like, what
are we doing next? Geez, I don't know, bingo.
Like, what is happening? The entertainment, yeah.
Yeah, everything, you know. The magic. So yeah,
that's why we were kind of influencing men to
kind of fill up mom's cup a little bit last week,
you know. But this is like, this is on a whole
other level of filling mom's cup. It's, you know.
Can make a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. Why don't
we get into the mental load of motherhood? Like,
yeah, the mental load that comes with it. It's
something that you guys highlight in your practice,
what the mental load looks like, and why does
it get overlooked? Yeah. So it's the mental load
of motherhood, you know, the constant going that
doesn't end, you know, it's like, Carly, you
mentioned it last time, you're like, my husband
just, you know, his head hits the pillow and
he's passed out and you're like, and I'm planning
out my whole next day and who needs what. And,
you know, it's just, it doesn't ever stop when
you're running a household. So, you know, the
constant it's anywhere from figuring out, you
know, what supplies we need, what do the kids
need for, you know, the special spirit day or
spirit week that we have going on. I mean, the
expectations, I feel like of parents compared
to even just when we were being raised. I mean,
People I feel like threw together little birthday
parties and not that they weren't very special
but like I mean what we do for our kids now It's
just it's so much more elaborate, you know, so
there's just so much more I think planning that
goes into it and then you add in the technology,
you know, which can be such a blessing but it's
also you know, it also adds sometimes to a lot
of this too of you know what we need what things
cost just to you know, function in normal day
society. But yeah, I mean, it can go anywhere
from just, you know, stocking the house to running
the household to what are all the things that
the children need getting them to all their doctor's
appointments or dentist appointments. If you
have a child who has special needs and has therapy
appointments or treatments or whatever, I mean,
you're coordinating everybody and the childcare,
you know, if you're working and you're not the
one that's doing all the running around, it's
who's coordinating, who's picking them up at
what time and getting them to do they have, you
know, everything in their lunchbox, they're,
you know, I forgot to send a drink or they got
sent to school today without a coat, or, you
know, I mean, it just, I couldn't, I could go
on and on and on. I just, you know. all the improvements
around the house, the projects, you know, um,
it's just, it's, it's so much. And I don't think
we give women enough credit for all that they
do and the weight of all that they do and the
exhaustion. Like it, it's just, it's so much.
So really being able to name it, acknowledge
it, talk about it, um, and find ways to also
like, heal from it, find solutions, find, you
know, what's your values? What's important? You
don't have to do all the things because that's
what social media is telling us to do. Like,
what's important to you and your family? And
what if you weren't to do all the other things
that you don't value or don't align with your
values? And like, how can we simplify this and
make it better for you and more manageable for
you? Yeah, that's great. I feel like I need to
book a segment with you. Where do I sign up?
Check, check, check, check. So what about like,
I know a lot of, like I said before in the last
one, you lose your identity a bit as you know,
when you become a mom. And I just recently started
getting back into my hobbies and things that
like pulled out that past. side of myself. And
I know that made a huge difference for my personal
self. Like, is that something that you kind of
encourage in your practice? Yes, it's another,
you know, piece of evolving. And that's one of
the reasons for the name evolving tree therapy
is, you know, mom's the tree of life. But motherhood
truly calls us to the table and to stand up and
continue to evolve as a human being and also
evolve as a woman and a mother and all the different
roles that we have in our life. And, you know,
really getting back to figuring out, like, What
is my identity? Because it gets so lost in early
motherhood. And as much as, you know, motherhood
is part of our identity, it's not our only identity.
And it's okay to have interests and hobbies and
things that make you feel like you, the you that
you knew before you had kids. Like that is okay.
It's okay to want those things. It's okay to
want free time to be able to, um, I don't know,
walk into a store and not have to carry in two
children. You know, I mean, like it's like the
simplest things. Yeah. You know, but once you
have kids, it gets so complex and like nothing's
just easy anymore. You know, so really being
able to explore that. And I also will, you know,
ask clients, well, who do you want to be? Like
your workload has nearly doubled, if not tripled
and you know, who do you envision yourself being
like what's important to you? Because that's
part of it is we do continue to evolve and change
and who we are today isn't who we are 10 years
ago or pre kids. But who do you want to be? I
think that's the beauty in life is like, we can
choose to a certain degree, you know, of course,
there's our innate characteristics and things
that interest us and don't and whatever, but
we can also continue to evolve and change and
Rediscover ourselves and find ourselves and motherhood
you can have it all like you don't have to change
into that Frumpy mom or whatever you want to
call it, you know where it's like my only existence
is to cater to everybody else It's like no you
will be able to be a better mom when you're able
to fill some of your own needs Because you're
not pouring from an empty cup, you know, totally
That's yeah, I feel that way big -time you your
cup needs to have some a fluid in it If you're
gonna give it to everybody else. Yeah, can't
can't pour from an empty cup for sure. So how
can talk therapy? Like, you know what we're doing
now? Because I feel great. I feel fantastic.
Great. How can talk therapy like help guide someone
through this transformation? Because, you know,
when I look back at becoming a mom, it feels
like a blur spots. I don't remember. Right. And
I do feel like I'm still the same person. Clearly.
I'm probably not, you know, I might have a sense
of self, but like how if someone really does
feel like, geez, I'm just I'm just not myself.
And I want to feel that girl again. I want to,
you know, what is what's like, how could you
guide them through that? Can we give our listeners
some tips? Absolutely. You know, it's. I feel
like we do a whole bunch of different things.
It, of course, depends on the client and what
they're identifying they want to do. But I think
it's a lot of just it's listening, it's exploring,
it's allowing them to genuinely talk in a safe
space where I'm not going to judge you. We all
have intense feelings. We are all complex beings.
It's OK to say that. things suck or you don't
like this or you hate this about yourself or
you really wanted to love motherhood and you're
really just finding yourself really resentful
about it and like there's room for it all and
it's okay to say those taboo things that society
tells us it's not okay to say and really just
creating that space and the work that you can
do like I also say like it's almost a gift to
give yourself that that one hour that you're
going to carve out once a week that's just for
you, like, whatever it is that you want to talk
about, this is your hour to talk about anything.
And, you know, a lot of it, yeah, it's exploring,
it's coming up with solutions, it's identifying,
like, what is important to you? What do you want
to be important to you? How do we align what
our actions are with those values or the outcomes
that you're looking to do? You know, how do we
set boundaries with family members that are being
too pushy or, you know, Pushing you in a direction
that you don't want to be in You know, or how
do you ask for help? What are you doing to take
care of yourself? Who are those people in your
life? That's important to you, you know to like
we work with Kind of a spectrum arranged so we'll
work with people who are like preconceptions
so like somebody who might just be like thinking
about getting pregnant and wants to explore that
or Maybe they didn't imagine themselves having
kids and all of a sudden, you know, they turn
39 now they're having that anxiety and they want
to like explore that to, you know, people who
maybe have experienced pregnancy loss to infertility,
people going through the infertility process
and how hard and challenging and emotional and
sad that can be. you know, through to people
who are currently pregnant. I think that's an
awesome time to come to therapy because it also
gives you a space to talk about some of the stuff
before you're actually in it. um to create a
plan and it doesn't mean that because we create
a plan it's going to be what the plan is but
the important piece is like having these conversations
like who is your village who's going to do the
mail train for you who can you call when you
are sleep deprived and losing your mind you know
and this baby's screaming and you don't know
what else to do with yourself besides walk away
you know like who are those people for you um
who's going to handle what like when the baby
comes home. I mean, we spent so much time, I
feel like talking about what the nursery is going
to look like and where we're registered and what,
you know, car seats going to work best. But like,
we don't talk about who's going to be washing
the dishes and who's getting up and changing
the baby. And like, those things are just as
important, if not more to talk about and plan
for and think about, like as part of your kind
of birthing plan. So we work with those families.
We work with, you know, once they give birth
and then we essentially will work with people
up until we call it like parenting littles. So
like anybody who has a kid like five or below.
So really, you know, the people who are in the
thick of it and how can we help them feel rooted
and grounded and give them some tools so that
life doesn't have to be as painful as it is when
they make that phone call that they need some
support. Yeah, it's kind of like pre, uh, like
you said, like pre -planning or preventing the,
you know, that to take place. I wish I knew you
when I was going through it because honestly,
like, I'm not in the thick of it now, but when
I was, I was struggling and I was hiding it and
I was not vocal with, you know, even my husband.
Like, yeah, I mean, he would kind of see that
he would come home and I look like I'd been crying
and he kind of got it. But it was it was not
easy. It was not easy. And I didn't I wish I
was more brave to like share it because it is
I think a lot more women go through it than we
realize. And, you know, you just have to know
like you're not alone. We're not the only one
who feels this way. There is help out there.
Yeah. And that's essentially, it really gave
me a purpose and passion and desire to create
this space for other moms. I wish I knew me too,
because I didn't even think about those things.
But now that I've done all this training to specialize
in this, I'm like, gosh, there's so many things
we can't do. And why is this not just the standard
of care that you go to your OB and she's like,
oh, OK, here. Here's the evolving tree. They're
going to help you set up a plan for you and your
husband for when the baby comes home. Start talking
to them. That's genius. Absolutely genius. Like
we think about all the other things, how we're
going to pay for things, what daycare they're
going to go to, but we don't talk about our relationship
or how our mental health is going to change once
we bring a baby into this world. Oh, you're incredible.
I love you. Just want to hug all the mamas. I
just want to give them so much love they deserve
and so much recognition. Thank you so much for
sharing your story too with us to be vulnerable.
you know, just because you do the therapy doesn't
mean that you're not going to go through it,
right? Yes. Yes. We're people too. You know,
yeah, I think. And that's the thing. It's like
hearing I'm a therapist and I'm going through
postpartum and like I was like blindsided. I
didn't expect that because I didn't experience
it with my first one. You know, so I do this
day in and day out and I was blindsided. So if
I'm blindsided, you know, there's a lot of other
mamas out there who are too. Absolutely. But
it gave you that, you know, that experience.
So now you really know what you're talking about.
And whoever comes and talks to you, they're going
to immediately know that, like, you get it. You
hear them. You've been through it. There is zero
judgment. And I love that because really, I mean,
the best teachers are the ones who actually went
through it. I love when like your OB's a guy
and he's like, oh yeah, so you're going to feel
best. Are you married a child? Like, yeah, you
studied it. I'll give you that. No, no, I just
love you and everything about this whole, all
of it. And I really hope that if there's any
mommies out there that are in the thick of it
to reach out. So like, how can they get ahold
of you, Jacqueline? Yeah. Um, so they can, the
best way is just to check out our website. It's
just evolving treat therapy .com. Um, on there,
there's an appointment request. They can just
enter their information and I do all the intake
calls and the pairing with my therapists that
work for us and, um, Yeah, it's a very easy,
simple process. We're really flexible. So we
do have locations in the Northwest corner of
Connecticut. So Torrington, Winstead and Canaan.
We also can treat anyone virtually in the state
of Connecticut. And honestly, moms, you know,
virtual is like a godsend. It just makes it so
much easier to just kind of run out, lock yourself
in the car or, you know, the garage or whatever
works to get your time. But, you know, you can
really take the call from wherever and we'll
meet you wherever you're at. and whatever we
can do to help and support and you know it it's
a gift that continues giving because you're giving
the gift of a healthy mom to your kids yeah i
have goosebumps i know it's so good it's so good
so we gave jacklyn the honor of picking our weekly
quote and i think it's just phenomenal so what
do you got for us jacklyn okay so No one even
mentioned it in nine whole months. Not one person
said you're about to meet someone Entirely new
and it's not your baby. It's going to be you.
I'm not crying. You're crying. Okay Mike drop
My goodness Jacqueline has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much for being our first guest on
our podcast. This is having me. This was lovely
Well, you're amazing you're incredible inside
and out such a lovely person anyone who is out
there reach out Get the help that you deserve
because you're not alone There are other mommies
just like you and you can get through this So
I hope everyone has a really great week special
week fill your cup mom's and as always keep it
good