Hello and welcome to this episode of The
icoachcricket Podcast. Richard O'Sullivan is one of
the most experienced, energetic and sharp grassroots
coaches you could ever hope to meet. He's been
coaching in Kent, South London and around Europe
for more than 30 years now. He's the creator
of Box Cricket, which is designed to make the
game more engaging to young players. It's designed
to be easy for teachers with no cricket experience
to deliver. Sully and Tim Dellor go back a long
way. So brace yourself for some reminiscing about
coaching in obscure places many years ago. so
here we are in the middle of London Dorset square
to be precise and I'm with Richard O'sullivan
and sully you know your cricket history what
a venue so you arranged for where we should meet
today and we're sitting in a fabulous little
spot where Lord's originally was that's right
I thought if two people who love cricket are
going to meet why don't we meet someone with
a bit of cricket history so this is allegedly
where the original Lord's cricket ground was sited
1787. So you'd have presumably been there for
that. Yeah, it was a great day. Real fun. Obviously
referring to the colour of my hair, Tim. Thank
you. Thomas Lord setting up the MCC and the original
Lord's here at Dorset Square. So a great place
for us to meet and have a good old catch up because
we go back a few years now, don't we, Sully?
Yeah, I first met you, Tim, when you were a young
man taking on the challenge of coaching Greece
cricket. In 1999. Indeed, in Corfu, there's worse
places to be for cricket. And I was the Maltese
national cricket coach at that time. Great fun.
People love cricket, doesn't matter where they
are, what they do. If they love cricket, it's
an easy thing to be involved with. And most memorable
for one of the biggest nights out. It's still
well inside my top ten of biggest nights out
ever in Corfu. I think more of an accolade, it's
definitely in my top three. And there are some
nights out in my top 500. But that was a night
out. When Greece win something, just to let you
know. enjoy it that's enough of that we need
to leave that firmly in the past and talk about
the present I want to ask you about box cricket
okay and it's simple as that tell me about box
cricket well what i've done for a very long time
is far too long probably since 1991 is go to
schools and local environments and develop systems
that lead to going to clubs and enjoying cricket
like we do and I think any of us who are involved
in the game can help kids have a great time,
enjoy themselves, come in and do some catching
drills and do a bit of bowling and have some
fun, but it occurred to me about 15, maybe a
little bit longer time ago, what was actually
the end product? And I looked at what I was doing
and realised the best end product was Year 6,
so 12 and 11 -year -olds. After having five or
six weeks, I'd managed to get them into four
teams in the class, playing... essentially pairs
cricket, quick cricket, in an order that the
school would feel confident enough to enter some
teams, win or lose, doesn't matter, but enter
some teams in the quick cricket tournament. And
at times in the borough of Bexley, where I've
mostly operated my whole life, we'd get 43 teams
from 35 schools entering a tournament. So I realised
that was really the place I needed to focus.
With the world changing, when I was young, whether
you liked cricket or not, it was still on TV
because there was nothing else. You got the test
card one side and some boring quiz show another,
so you watched the cricket, so you learnt it.
All my friends today, even though they don't
play cricket, they do understand the principle,
but I realised going to schools that you'd suddenly
say, let's play cricket, and you'd get a lot
of blank faces. I thought, right, what are the
barriers here? Why don't people understand it?
And one, they don't watch it. And two, the way
we teach it in schools is skill -based. We don't
teach it, this is the game, let's play the game.
So I looked at the other reason we don't play
games, you know, and why teachers don't play
games. They're worried about safety. So I developed
a system that's got the kids fully engaged, where
they create... boxes and crease lines. The box
operates as a safety box so the kids can't go
in the box until the ball's been hit or missed.
They're engaged because they've had a job to
collect equipment, they've had a job to make
it up and then they can play the game, a modified
game. And over time there's a development where
there's different success criteria where you
feed those in. It's a game -based approach, it's
so much more effective. And I really want to
pick up on that game -based approach in a moment
but the fact that it's easy for teachers without
cricket knowledge to operate is absolutely central
to this isn't it because you talked about why
aren't people playing cricket schools why aren't
people more involved in cricket and one of the
key restraints I suppose or constraints is that
teachers aren't confident enough in their own
cricket knowledge and background experience but
you've set it up in such a way that really minimal
if any cricket knowledge is required well the
way a game -based approach that's well done works
is You create a modified game and by nature of
people being engaged, they want to know more.
So the kids will ask questions. They're safe,
they're playing and they'll say, well, what happens
if you touch it on the wicket? And within the
model of it, there are different success criteria.
There's 66 success criteria written in educational
speak for the school version where the teacher
can answer the question or they can develop the
skill that's needed. But essentially it's about
playing the game. because that way they pick
up information, they want to know more, and everyone's
engaged. They rotate round, everyone does a certain
job. It is just so much more effective. And the
more coaching I do, the more you realise that
it's quite a hard sport to keep everybody engaged,
isn't it? I go and watch my daughter play cricket.
She's only young, and quite often she'll stand
there for quite a long time without really being
involved. And there is a skill to that, isn't
there? And we can sometimes lose sight of that
as coaches. has to be keeping everybody involved
and engaged all the time? Well, I think a game
-based approach, which is maybe to some people
known as the term teaching games for understanding,
it's common and it's very common across schools
in the country, especially secondary schools,
especially as teachers. But to be honest, it's
not very well done most of the time. What that
means to people is taking three footballs or
three sets of bats and balls and going out and
creating some kind of game and letting them play.
A game -based approach that's well done creates
a modified game. creates rotations, lets everyone
have a go, and then says, right, what do we need
to know? What do the players need to know? What
do they need to learn? So you might stop the
game and say, right, we need to put the bat over
the crease line in order to get in. Therefore,
it saves you time. You might notice that they
can't stop the ball when it's going on the ground.
So the practice that's required is to stop the
ball. And because they're already in pairs and
they're already organised, it's an easy transition.
And often in schools, my observation, because
I'm a PE teacher as well as a cricket coach,
is that... People are too ambitious about transitions.
They try and transition so much that the young
people don't understand what they're trying to
do. Whereas this system keeps everything the
same in principle and then just says, right,
this week, what are we going to achieve within
this modified game? and to set up that structure
to set up those practices you need real understanding
of the game don't you at your level when you're
setting it up and writing a curriculum i'm sure
you don't put it in those terms but fundamentally
the understanding of the game that deep roots
understanding it has all been done really hasn't
it so then after that the children the players
learn from the playing experience but only because
it's skillfully set up with an understanding
of the game at its core is that Fair statement.
That's essentially it. I mean, the success criteria
is written in educational speak. So we're talking
to people who can say, are the players able to
hit a ball with a vertical bat? And they'll understand
that. And it's rag -rated. They say yes or no,
the players can or can't. And then if they can't,
it gives them a support system that says, this
is what a drill looks like in order to do that.
because we're talking about people who don't
we have to leave a system my observation of people
is brilliant all the systems and schemes are
going to schools everyone has good fun and they're
hoping people will carry on as a legacy And it's
not real because they can't remember the drill
or they don't have the confidence in the drill.
This is a system. You can leave people with a
system to organise games. And I tell them they
can use it for any sport in principle. The system
of organising groups, getting them to engage
in building it and playing a modified game. And
removing other barriers as well. So you mentioned
the kit, but the facility you need, you don't
need a fabulous grass pitch. be in the car park
with minimal kit. And there are, when you stop
and think about it, a lot of barriers to youngsters
playing, really, aren't there? You look at the
expense of the kit and the expense of the venue.
If you look at schools in England, secondary
schools, how many actually have a field? People
don't realise there's so many inner -city areas.
My experience, of course, of London, where...
People say, we can't play cricket, we haven't
got a field. There's a simple indoor version.
Every school has a sports hall. They can develop
it because you have to play the game to get an
understanding of what to do. And you can play
everywhere. In the end, if you develop a passion
for the game, you will either find somewhere
to go and play it, be led to somewhere to play
it, or at worst, watch it. maybe attend a game,
maybe be interested in it. Who knows who the
next Ben Stokes or Heather Knight is going to
be? We don't. We have to give them an opportunity.
Do you think we're winning at this? Because you
look at the stats and you look at the way society
is going, do you think we're getting better introducing
cricket so that they love the game? I think the
100, I'm a great fan of that. I think it's something
that engages people to maybe go and watch. Whether
they understand the game or not and therefore
have a long -time presence in it, I'm not sure.
I think we have to, in schools, give people the
opportunity to allow people to understand the
general principles of it. Because if you look
at where the game is incredibly popular, it's
because they understand that one batter and one
bowler can make a game. I once was, a long time
ago now, 20 -odd years ago, was... coaching a
development programme in the afternoon and one
lad was left and his parent hadn't picked him
up. And while we were waiting, I said, should
we play cricket? He said, we can't play cricket,
there's only two of us. I went, no, that's exactly
what we can do. That is cricket. And I think
if we don't give people the understanding of
you hit the ball to score runs, you can be out
in the following ways that fielders move to these
positions. They don't need to be good at it.
They just need to understand the principle of
it. Talk me through the whole keeping kids involved
then. So you've got 20 kids, you've got a car
park, you've got a bat and a ball, and that whole
priority, front and centre, is let's keep this
group involved all the time. Presumably when
you start a session, if you got dropped into
a coaching environment, that would be... with
the fun and the safety that's easy isn't it that's
what you're trying to do is get everybody moving
involved having a go experiencing what happens
is they all have a job to collect a certain piece
of equipment and the job is repeated every week
and then they have a job to use that piece of
equipment to make the boxes the amount of boxes
increase depending on the year group because
of the youngest people involved in what's called
year one so year five and six year olds they
make very simple boxes and there's more of those
boxes because they bat individually and that's
controlled by the teacher or the coach who just
says hit and they're developing those very early
basic skills of hitting running stopping etc
and then as they develop they become fewer boxes
and the jobs slightly increase but everyone rotates
around so pair one back pair two bowler keep
wicket pair three field in one side of the box
pair four field another side of the box and pair
five field at the back where mid off and mid
on is that pair five develops over time to become
an umpiring pair as you get into secondary school
and everyone rotates around gets an idea of all
the jobs the teacher or the coach stands there
gets the games going, takes one or two sessions.
You have to be a bit patient in session one while
they understand how to build it and get going.
Once it's going, it's brilliant because the person
can stand there and go, do you know what, they
don't know how to do this, looking at the success
criteria, and off we go. Because everyone's had
fair turns, there's no way of waiting for someone
to be out or anything, and then someone's standing
there forever because they rotate and do all
the jobs. How reliant do you think it is on the
personality, the character, the skill of the...
well, we'll call them a coach, but it could be
a teacher, a leader, a parent, it could be anybody,
because we've all seen high -level operators
who can just get things going with a bit of a
smile, a bit of a laugh, great energy, and then
on the flip side, where it's a bit staid and
a bit slow, do you think it's reliant on the
communication skills of the leader of that session?
Undoubtedly, you can't question it. The more
the personality of the person is... available
to excite the kids but the principle is and I've
seen it so many times is teachers in particular
like order they like routine so they can set
it up the young people are therefore engaged
in it and they're doing it it builds on itself
because they then want to know and they ask questions
and they say well what do we do here the fact
that 30 kids in a class are engaged every week
what you see is you see the kids who would never
play in a million years love they can almost
not wait for someone to be sick so they can do
the other job they've never done they can use
those cones to make the box or they can do the
crease line because they want to be involved
everyone wants to feel part of something and
it is that structure against flex isn't it there's
room for sort of flexibility and spontaneity
because we've talked a lot haven't we in the
past about having very structured systems in
place that actually cramp the development. And
if everything's too structured, it doesn't necessarily
fulfil its objective, whereas you've got a bit
more room for flexibility. What's interesting
is that we use this in our network. We have a
PE company that goes to many, many schools, and
we use this in our network. But it's also developed
to be used in the local clubs because... You
know, I've coached cricket for young people for
a very long time and you coach under 10s, well,
let's coach them the sweep shot. And in truth,
they get bowled and run out. So why are we not
showing them how to run in pads? How are we not
showing them how to stop the ball if it's going
to hit the wicket? How are we not showing them
how to hit it if it's wide for the wicket? There's
very basic things in the game itself. You see
so many people go in the nets and they face 25
balls. and hit one of them because only three
are straight and the rest of them are hitting
the side net. And with this, any ball that's
wide of the cones that are all put out the same
every week so you know how wide it is, they get
a free hit off a tee. So everyone's engaged.
Everyone can do it. It doesn't matter what the
level or the standard is. But obviously a skilled
club coach can look and go, what we did last
week is seven of my team are run out. So the
focus this week is we're going to make it. minus
10 if you lose a wicket run out. but you've got
to try and run every third ball somehow. You
can tailor it. If you have skills, you use the
system. And you see people waiting to have cricket
nets. Why are they waiting around? Why aren't
they playing? It's all based on being a child.
We all went to the park and played a game. It's
exactly the same thing. Just playing, isn't it?
Yeah. In the old -fashioned sense. Exactly. I
mean, genuinely, we would go to a park as kids
and it was called Johnny's Field because his
house was closest and we'd throw the smallest
lad over the fence to unlock it on the inside
and he'd unlock it and for nine months... Once
a year we'd play football with them and it got
too hot, we'd play cricket and we'd just make
our own game up. And that skill has been lost.
And this is giving them a structure to make it
up that's safe enough people can trust. And they'll
just, literally, it takes 30 seconds once they've
learnt it in week one and two to make it. It's
your own register. It's everything. 20 years
ago, am I making this up or have I dreamt this?
There was a game called Catchy Shubby from the
West Indies, which was very sort of spontaneous.
Again, it was a bit like what you're saying.
Everyone was involved. The fielder who got the
ball, the fielder who got
the batter out batted nicks. That all seemed
quite fast-moving and fluid. Was there a game
called Catchy Shubby? Yeah, Catchy Shubby. If
you go to the Caribbean, you see young people
playing cricket in the street. Maybe not, sadly,
as much as you used to, but there's backyard
cricket in Australia. People, because the weather's
better, they know that means someone stands in
front of their garage door and someone runs up
and tries to bowl the ball to hit the garage
door and the batter tries to stop it. It's as
simple as that. India and the rest of the Asian
subcontinent. People just play a game. Improvising
with the kit, improvising with what the game
actually looks like, depending on what conditions
you've got and where you are. I'm sure lots of
people have seen the Field of Dreams, Freddy
Flintoff. You think of those games in the passageways
in India they got involved with, absolutely brilliant.
You know, fast moving, they're playing in an
alleyway. There's no reason you can't... create
a game and obviously out of that you you work
it doesn't mean you stop coaching in fact I think
it increases the level of coaching and the coach's
skill to have to look at a club level you know
at a school level the reality is you won't get
to the higher level success criteria because
you don't need to you just need to allow them
to play the game your aim in a primary school
is to get them to a cricket tournament your aim
in a secondary school is to engage them in the
game so they'd be able to play at some point
a hardball game and in the older age groups you
can wear pads use an incredible so you're actually
playing cricket you don't need to be where we
are now you know close to Lord's cricket ground
Talk me through that whole, yeah, the coach actually
needs to be more skilful, even though they might
be saying less. To the casual observer, they
might be doing less, but actually they're doing
more and positively inputting into that session
more, even though it might appear they're just
observing or occasionally intervening. Well,
you've just used the perfect word. It's interventions.
It's about your feeling of what the intervention
needs to be next. And obviously, there are the...
66 rag -rated success criteria which I encourage
people to follow and at a club level encourage
the managers who might not be cricketers to have
a look at and see oh actually you know our team
don't use the space well enough they don't work
out how to relay throw all of those things but
it's the skill of the coach at a club level to
be able to or a school level if they're actually
a cricket coach to go ah okay what this group
needs next is to understand how to bowl overarm
because we've got to the stage they understand
how to run they understand how to cross over
and send it to field it next one is how to bowl
over arm then they're already in pairs they're
already in their boxes you give them an intervention
you show them something they're going to have
a go and you say let's carry on with the game
do you think coaches are getting better at doing
that that set it up and let it go I think so
I think also The intervention can be 20 seconds.
So you can say, right, everyone come in, run.
You know, a bit of enthusiasm, get them all in
and say, right, look where I'm touching my butt
over the line. That's the next non -negotiable.
This week, we are making sure we don't put our
feet past the crease line because we're wasting
time. And some weeks, I always set the boxes
up because I think it's key to them realising
how they're going to apply it to a game. But
some weeks, you might only have one or two. pairs
back because you actually need to focus on high
catching or focus on stopping the ball or where
the fielders would want to stand. There might
be weeks where you don't do that much of the
actual game, but you do want to apply it back
to the game. And that's the skill of the person
using a game -based approach. Yeah, that definitely
is a skill as well. What about you then, Sully?
Because you're so passionate about this and so
driven. Where does that come from? I think it
comes from the fact that my parents are Irish.
So when I grew up and... looked at the TV and
saw this game, I thought, oh, this is interesting,
and got my brother out in the garden and we played.
But we had no pathways or nothing like that.
We'd ask my parents, who were amazingly supportive
with the little we had, but they had no idea
at all. I think it's the passion to give everyone
an opportunity. Then when I went to secondary
school, I know that they had a cricket trial,
South East London School, so we're not talking
about high level here particularly, and I know
I hit the stumps three times, the wicket three
times. But the teacher wasn't looking. And therefore,
when they came to pick the groups, and the year
I went to school, you never argue with the teachers.
It wasn't a very safe thing to do. I wasn't in
the top 30. I thought, that's a bit weird. But
I just knew I loved the game. So I kept going
and kept going, and then people would drop off.
And then eventually someone said, why don't you
join a club? And I was very fortunate to join
an amazing club and to be taught the game, Bexley
Cricket Club. I finally got to a place where
I was playing. I wasn't the school team. That
was brilliant. I mean, we'd only play a few games
a year, and it would be on a ropey pitch or whatever,
but I think that's where it comes from, my passion
to give everyone an opportunity. Because who
knows who might love it? I just love seeing the
look on kids' faces, because you can see, oh,
I've achieved something here. I know it sounds
funny. I've set the box up. The look of joy on
someone's face when they've created a crease
line with some cones in front of a blue plastic
wicket. To me, it's a joy. I don't want to pump
your tyres up too much, but your personality
is perfect for... It fits perfectly, doesn't
it? Because you are renowned as high energy.
You've always got a smile on your face and you're
just a complete natural when it comes to delivering
this sort of thing. You always appear like you're
loving it. Well, I think the truth is I do. I'd
do it for nothing if I could afford to do it
for nothing. Don't tell people that. No, but
I would. It's an honour, isn't it? But also,
you know, you get some challenges because, you
know, not everyone sticks to the task all the
time, but you pick up skills to be able to do
it. And I think part of it is passing on that
legacy as well. I don't know that we... We do
lots of how to coach, but we don't do a lot of
emotional connection from the coach to the players
and how we really get them to understand. I've
always said to everyone in teaching that the
kids will always give you space. and give you
a chance if they know you care. And if they know
you care, you'll be okay, you'll do well. And
I think that's part of where I come from, because
I do care. I want them all to get a chance. And
it's interesting how you demonstrate how you
care, isn't it? Because I suppose that is through
body language and really engaging with the individual
players and making sure you're in the room when
you're delivering rather than looking at your
phone and being distracted. I mean, it's all
those little skills that demonstrate how much
you care about that. player at this session well
I think in all the coaching things you've done
you always pick up information I always remember
someone saying to me I think it was more of a
teaching environment but saying if you've got
30 kids your aim should be to speak to all 30
of them in that 45 minute session so I try to
do that it's not always possible but even if
you're speaking to them as a group of people
and personally not just 30 kids and using their
name for instance names are very important I
know nicknames they love a nickname they love
a little joke and you build up your little bank
of jokes team will support them I use football
all the time because that is well known to everyone
again the link is everyone understands All you've
got to do with the football is get it in the
opposition goal. It's simple. We have to simplify
cricket. And then people will understand it and
engage in it more. Yeah, and it is a game that
can so easily be lost in complexity, can't it,
in detail. But I suppose that's why football
was successful. It was a jumpers for goalpost
thing. And that's what we're trying to strive
for in cricket. Well, the jumpers for goalpost
is the same as, you know, I take... the chairs
out of the classroom sometimes because people
say we haven't got enough wickets. There's 30
of them there. Or dustbins. Anything, you know.
There's a way of inventing, you know. Another
passion is trying to get secondary school kids
and even older primary school kids. We should
have cricket nets in schools they're allowed
to use with safety instructions. I don't mean
expensive ones. I mean literally bits of netting
so they can go in and hit the ball. Now in primary
schools, quite often, they're not even allowed
to foam football, which is bad. You have to let
people play game. Until you explain it's the
bat that's dangerous, they always think it's
the ball, and it's a tennis ball. It's the bat
that causes people lifelong issues. Hence, the
box is to keep people away from the bats until
the ball's been hit or missed. And the ball's
not given out until the box is made, because
that's a recipe for disaster. Because the ball,
you know, a tennis ball, and as you get bigger
school fields and secondary schools, you can
space out more, so you can use an Incrediball
or a Wimbledon ball more. That's not that dangerous.
The bat will do you lifelong damage, so... You
have to know that. Well, it's been great to catch
up. I've really enjoyed it. When are we next
on a bender in Corfu then? Well, if we leave
it 20 years, we might not make it, but I'll definitely
meet you in Corfu at the Marina Ground or even
that magnificent, the ground in the centre there.
Absolutely brilliant. And when you're asked questions
about which team's batting by all Italian and
French tourists, which ideally they wouldn't
need to know because we keep the game simple.
It's a bat versus a ball. And if you've got some
fielders, great. Good stuff. Nice to see you.
Take care. Good to see you, Tim. Cheers.