WEBVTT 00:00:04.549 --> 00:00:07.650 Hello and welcome to this episode of The 00:00:07.650 --> 00:00:10.490 icoachcricket Podcast. Richard O'Sullivan is one of 00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:13.830 the most experienced, energetic and sharp grassroots 00:00:13.830 --> 00:00:16.570 coaches you could ever hope to meet. He's been 00:00:16.570 --> 00:00:19.429 coaching in Kent, South London and around Europe 00:00:19.429 --> 00:00:22.250 for more than 30 years now. He's the creator 00:00:22.250 --> 00:00:24.570 of Box Cricket, which is designed to make the 00:00:24.570 --> 00:00:27.190 game more engaging to young players. It's designed 00:00:27.190 --> 00:00:29.489 to be easy for teachers with no cricket experience 00:00:29.489 --> 00:00:33.229 to deliver. Sully and Tim Dellor go back a long 00:00:33.229 --> 00:00:36.310 way. So brace yourself for some reminiscing about 00:00:36.310 --> 00:00:40.590 coaching in obscure places many years ago. so 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:42.509 here we are in the middle of London Dorset square 00:00:42.509 --> 00:00:44.689 to be precise and I'm with Richard O'sullivan 00:00:44.689 --> 00:00:47.049 and sully you know your cricket history what 00:00:47.049 --> 00:00:49.990 a venue so you arranged for where we should meet 00:00:49.990 --> 00:00:52.570 today and we're sitting in a fabulous little 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:55.149 spot where Lord's originally was that's right 00:00:55.149 --> 00:00:58.049 I thought if two people who love cricket are 00:00:58.049 --> 00:00:59.369 going to meet why don't we meet someone with 00:00:59.369 --> 00:01:01.130 a bit of cricket history so this is allegedly 00:01:01.130 --> 00:01:04.430 where the original Lord's cricket ground was sited 00:01:05.509 --> 00:01:07.930 1787. So you'd have presumably been there for 00:01:07.930 --> 00:01:11.790 that. Yeah, it was a great day. Real fun. Obviously 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:13.510 referring to the colour of my hair, Tim. Thank 00:01:13.510 --> 00:01:16.590 you. Thomas Lord setting up the MCC and the original 00:01:16.590 --> 00:01:19.069 Lord's here at Dorset Square. So a great place 00:01:19.069 --> 00:01:21.909 for us to meet and have a good old catch up because 00:01:21.909 --> 00:01:24.549 we go back a few years now, don't we, Sully? 00:01:24.769 --> 00:01:28.170 Yeah, I first met you, Tim, when you were a young 00:01:28.170 --> 00:01:30.129 man taking on the challenge of coaching Greece 00:01:30.129 --> 00:01:34.170 cricket. In 1999. Indeed, in Corfu, there's worse 00:01:34.170 --> 00:01:36.769 places to be for cricket. And I was the Maltese 00:01:36.769 --> 00:01:39.049 national cricket coach at that time. Great fun. 00:01:39.450 --> 00:01:40.909 People love cricket, doesn't matter where they 00:01:40.909 --> 00:01:42.769 are, what they do. If they love cricket, it's 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:44.670 an easy thing to be involved with. And most memorable 00:01:44.670 --> 00:01:47.310 for one of the biggest nights out. It's still 00:01:47.310 --> 00:01:49.870 well inside my top ten of biggest nights out 00:01:49.870 --> 00:01:52.750 ever in Corfu. I think more of an accolade, it's 00:01:52.750 --> 00:01:54.730 definitely in my top three. And there are some 00:01:54.730 --> 00:01:57.969 nights out in my top 500. But that was a night 00:01:57.969 --> 00:02:00.030 out. When Greece win something, just to let you 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:02.569 know. enjoy it that's enough of that we need 00:02:02.569 --> 00:02:04.930 to leave that firmly in the past and talk about 00:02:04.930 --> 00:02:07.230 the present I want to ask you about box cricket 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:10.370 okay and it's simple as that tell me about box 00:02:10.370 --> 00:02:14.250 cricket well what i've done for a very long time 00:02:14.250 --> 00:02:17.849 is far too long probably since 1991 is go to 00:02:17.849 --> 00:02:20.110 schools and local environments and develop systems 00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:22.590 that lead to going to clubs and enjoying cricket 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:25.750 like we do and I think any of us who are involved 00:02:25.750 --> 00:02:28.599 in the game can help kids have a great time, 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:31.020 enjoy themselves, come in and do some catching 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:32.800 drills and do a bit of bowling and have some 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.979 fun, but it occurred to me about 15, maybe a 00:02:36.979 --> 00:02:38.900 little bit longer time ago, what was actually 00:02:38.900 --> 00:02:40.819 the end product? And I looked at what I was doing 00:02:40.819 --> 00:02:43.460 and realised the best end product was Year 6, 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.379 so 12 and 11 -year -olds. After having five or 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:49.280 six weeks, I'd managed to get them into four 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.250 teams in the class, playing... essentially pairs 00:02:52.250 --> 00:02:54.229 cricket, quick cricket, in an order that the 00:02:54.229 --> 00:02:56.669 school would feel confident enough to enter some 00:02:56.669 --> 00:02:58.870 teams, win or lose, doesn't matter, but enter 00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:00.409 some teams in the quick cricket tournament. And 00:03:00.409 --> 00:03:02.009 at times in the borough of Bexley, where I've 00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:06.090 mostly operated my whole life, we'd get 43 teams 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:10.189 from 35 schools entering a tournament. So I realised 00:03:10.189 --> 00:03:12.889 that was really the place I needed to focus. 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.479 With the world changing, when I was young, whether 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:19.120 you liked cricket or not, it was still on TV 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.300 because there was nothing else. You got the test 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:23.500 card one side and some boring quiz show another, 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:25.139 so you watched the cricket, so you learnt it. 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.280 All my friends today, even though they don't 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:28.960 play cricket, they do understand the principle, 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:32.699 but I realised going to schools that you'd suddenly 00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:34.879 say, let's play cricket, and you'd get a lot 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.759 of blank faces. I thought, right, what are the 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:40.620 barriers here? Why don't people understand it? 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:42.780 And one, they don't watch it. And two, the way 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:45.599 we teach it in schools is skill -based. We don't 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.840 teach it, this is the game, let's play the game. 00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:52.780 So I looked at the other reason we don't play 00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:55.219 games, you know, and why teachers don't play 00:03:55.219 --> 00:03:57.860 games. They're worried about safety. So I developed 00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:00.780 a system that's got the kids fully engaged, where 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:04.629 they create... boxes and crease lines. The box 00:04:04.629 --> 00:04:06.650 operates as a safety box so the kids can't go 00:04:06.650 --> 00:04:08.110 in the box until the ball's been hit or missed. 00:04:08.270 --> 00:04:09.930 They're engaged because they've had a job to 00:04:09.930 --> 00:04:11.229 collect equipment, they've had a job to make 00:04:11.229 --> 00:04:13.530 it up and then they can play the game, a modified 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:17.050 game. And over time there's a development where 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:18.470 there's different success criteria where you 00:04:18.470 --> 00:04:20.889 feed those in. It's a game -based approach, it's 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:23.350 so much more effective. And I really want to 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:25.910 pick up on that game -based approach in a moment 00:04:25.910 --> 00:04:29.350 but the fact that it's easy for teachers without 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:32.649 cricket knowledge to operate is absolutely central 00:04:32.649 --> 00:04:34.569 to this isn't it because you talked about why 00:04:34.569 --> 00:04:37.649 aren't people playing cricket schools why aren't 00:04:37.649 --> 00:04:40.170 people more involved in cricket and one of the 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:44.129 key restraints I suppose or constraints is that 00:04:44.129 --> 00:04:46.029 teachers aren't confident enough in their own 00:04:46.029 --> 00:04:48.170 cricket knowledge and background experience but 00:04:48.170 --> 00:04:51.389 you've set it up in such a way that really minimal 00:04:51.389 --> 00:04:54.470 if any cricket knowledge is required well the 00:04:54.470 --> 00:04:57.389 way a game -based approach that's well done works 00:04:57.389 --> 00:05:01.519 is You create a modified game and by nature of 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.139 people being engaged, they want to know more. 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:07.439 So the kids will ask questions. They're safe, 00:05:07.540 --> 00:05:09.319 they're playing and they'll say, well, what happens 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:11.759 if you touch it on the wicket? And within the 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.500 model of it, there are different success criteria. 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:17.199 There's 66 success criteria written in educational 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.180 speak for the school version where the teacher 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:22.519 can answer the question or they can develop the 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.079 skill that's needed. But essentially it's about 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:28.050 playing the game. because that way they pick 00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:31.829 up information, they want to know more, and everyone's 00:05:31.829 --> 00:05:34.069 engaged. They rotate round, everyone does a certain 00:05:34.069 --> 00:05:36.670 job. It is just so much more effective. And the 00:05:36.670 --> 00:05:38.670 more coaching I do, the more you realise that 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:41.470 it's quite a hard sport to keep everybody engaged, 00:05:41.709 --> 00:05:43.910 isn't it? I go and watch my daughter play cricket. 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:46.850 She's only young, and quite often she'll stand 00:05:46.850 --> 00:05:49.389 there for quite a long time without really being 00:05:49.389 --> 00:05:51.990 involved. And there is a skill to that, isn't 00:05:51.990 --> 00:05:53.490 there? And we can sometimes lose sight of that 00:05:53.490 --> 00:05:57.199 as coaches. has to be keeping everybody involved 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.839 and engaged all the time? Well, I think a game 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.459 -based approach, which is maybe to some people 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:04.699 known as the term teaching games for understanding, 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:07.759 it's common and it's very common across schools 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:09.100 in the country, especially secondary schools, 00:06:09.180 --> 00:06:11.100 especially as teachers. But to be honest, it's 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:12.839 not very well done most of the time. What that 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:14.959 means to people is taking three footballs or 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:18.139 three sets of bats and balls and going out and 00:06:18.139 --> 00:06:21.100 creating some kind of game and letting them play. 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.439 A game -based approach that's well done creates 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.240 a modified game. creates rotations, lets everyone 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.100 have a go, and then says, right, what do we need 00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:32.040 to know? What do the players need to know? What 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:34.339 do they need to learn? So you might stop the 00:06:34.339 --> 00:06:36.220 game and say, right, we need to put the bat over 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:38.480 the crease line in order to get in. Therefore, 00:06:38.579 --> 00:06:41.000 it saves you time. You might notice that they 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:42.540 can't stop the ball when it's going on the ground. 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.639 So the practice that's required is to stop the 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.120 ball. And because they're already in pairs and 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.399 they're already organised, it's an easy transition. 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.259 And often in schools, my observation, because 00:06:53.259 --> 00:06:55.439 I'm a PE teacher as well as a cricket coach, 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.560 is that... People are too ambitious about transitions. 00:06:58.779 --> 00:07:01.100 They try and transition so much that the young 00:07:01.100 --> 00:07:02.519 people don't understand what they're trying to 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.379 do. Whereas this system keeps everything the 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:06.079 same in principle and then just says, right, 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:09.319 this week, what are we going to achieve within 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.540 this modified game? and to set up that structure 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.800 to set up those practices you need real understanding 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:18.199 of the game don't you at your level when you're 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.139 setting it up and writing a curriculum i'm sure 00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:23.600 you don't put it in those terms but fundamentally 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.339 the understanding of the game that deep roots 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:28.680 understanding it has all been done really hasn't 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.759 it so then after that the children the players 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.800 learn from the playing experience but only because 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.319 it's skillfully set up with an understanding 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:39.009 of the game at its core is that Fair statement. 00:07:39.329 --> 00:07:41.550 That's essentially it. I mean, the success criteria 00:07:41.550 --> 00:07:43.649 is written in educational speak. So we're talking 00:07:43.649 --> 00:07:48.170 to people who can say, are the players able to 00:07:48.170 --> 00:07:51.550 hit a ball with a vertical bat? And they'll understand 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:54.329 that. And it's rag -rated. They say yes or no, 00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:57.310 the players can or can't. And then if they can't, 00:07:57.310 --> 00:07:59.490 it gives them a support system that says, this 00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:02.230 is what a drill looks like in order to do that. 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:04.420 because we're talking about people who don't 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:07.480 we have to leave a system my observation of people 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.439 is brilliant all the systems and schemes are 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:12.740 going to schools everyone has good fun and they're 00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:15.290 hoping people will carry on as a legacy And it's 00:08:15.290 --> 00:08:17.069 not real because they can't remember the drill 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:18.769 or they don't have the confidence in the drill. 00:08:18.870 --> 00:08:21.810 This is a system. You can leave people with a 00:08:21.810 --> 00:08:25.290 system to organise games. And I tell them they 00:08:25.290 --> 00:08:27.610 can use it for any sport in principle. The system 00:08:27.610 --> 00:08:29.370 of organising groups, getting them to engage 00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:31.790 in building it and playing a modified game. And 00:08:31.790 --> 00:08:33.990 removing other barriers as well. So you mentioned 00:08:33.990 --> 00:08:36.549 the kit, but the facility you need, you don't 00:08:36.549 --> 00:08:40.659 need a fabulous grass pitch. be in the car park 00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:43.440 with minimal kit. And there are, when you stop 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:45.879 and think about it, a lot of barriers to youngsters 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.340 playing, really, aren't there? You look at the 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:51.120 expense of the kit and the expense of the venue. 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.980 If you look at schools in England, secondary 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:55.899 schools, how many actually have a field? People 00:08:55.899 --> 00:08:57.919 don't realise there's so many inner -city areas. 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.779 My experience, of course, of London, where... 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:02.440 People say, we can't play cricket, we haven't 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:05.440 got a field. There's a simple indoor version. 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:08.840 Every school has a sports hall. They can develop 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:10.919 it because you have to play the game to get an 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.379 understanding of what to do. And you can play 00:09:13.379 --> 00:09:15.940 everywhere. In the end, if you develop a passion 00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:19.100 for the game, you will either find somewhere 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:21.139 to go and play it, be led to somewhere to play 00:09:21.139 --> 00:09:25.340 it, or at worst, watch it. maybe attend a game, 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.899 maybe be interested in it. Who knows who the 00:09:27.899 --> 00:09:30.779 next Ben Stokes or Heather Knight is going to 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:33.000 be? We don't. We have to give them an opportunity. 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:35.159 Do you think we're winning at this? Because you 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.139 look at the stats and you look at the way society 00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:40.639 is going, do you think we're getting better introducing 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.860 cricket so that they love the game? I think the 00:09:44.860 --> 00:09:47.500 100, I'm a great fan of that. I think it's something 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.370 that engages people to maybe go and watch. Whether 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:52.309 they understand the game or not and therefore 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:54.909 have a long -time presence in it, I'm not sure. 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:59.090 I think we have to, in schools, give people the 00:09:59.090 --> 00:10:01.190 opportunity to allow people to understand the 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:03.070 general principles of it. Because if you look 00:10:03.070 --> 00:10:06.750 at where the game is incredibly popular, it's 00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:10.190 because they understand that one batter and one 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:14.289 bowler can make a game. I once was, a long time 00:10:14.289 --> 00:10:16.870 ago now, 20 -odd years ago, was... coaching a 00:10:16.870 --> 00:10:19.210 development programme in the afternoon and one 00:10:19.210 --> 00:10:21.090 lad was left and his parent hadn't picked him 00:10:21.090 --> 00:10:22.769 up. And while we were waiting, I said, should 00:10:22.769 --> 00:10:24.830 we play cricket? He said, we can't play cricket, 00:10:24.889 --> 00:10:27.529 there's only two of us. I went, no, that's exactly 00:10:27.529 --> 00:10:30.210 what we can do. That is cricket. And I think 00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:31.669 if we don't give people the understanding of 00:10:31.669 --> 00:10:34.830 you hit the ball to score runs, you can be out 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:37.389 in the following ways that fielders move to these 00:10:37.389 --> 00:10:38.830 positions. They don't need to be good at it. 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:41.019 They just need to understand the principle of 00:10:41.019 --> 00:10:43.700 it. Talk me through the whole keeping kids involved 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:46.620 then. So you've got 20 kids, you've got a car 00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:50.960 park, you've got a bat and a ball, and that whole 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.740 priority, front and centre, is let's keep this 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:56.779 group involved all the time. Presumably when 00:10:56.779 --> 00:10:58.840 you start a session, if you got dropped into 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:00.940 a coaching environment, that would be... with 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:03.740 the fun and the safety that's easy isn't it that's 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:05.720 what you're trying to do is get everybody moving 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.259 involved having a go experiencing what happens 00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:11.539 is they all have a job to collect a certain piece 00:11:11.539 --> 00:11:13.220 of equipment and the job is repeated every week 00:11:13.220 --> 00:11:14.779 and then they have a job to use that piece of 00:11:14.779 --> 00:11:16.879 equipment to make the boxes the amount of boxes 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.679 increase depending on the year group because 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:23.409 of the youngest people involved in what's called 00:11:23.409 --> 00:11:25.210 year one so year five and six year olds they 00:11:25.210 --> 00:11:27.370 make very simple boxes and there's more of those 00:11:27.370 --> 00:11:29.570 boxes because they bat individually and that's 00:11:29.570 --> 00:11:31.730 controlled by the teacher or the coach who just 00:11:31.730 --> 00:11:34.190 says hit and they're developing those very early 00:11:34.190 --> 00:11:38.169 basic skills of hitting running stopping etc 00:11:38.169 --> 00:11:41.230 and then as they develop they become fewer boxes 00:11:41.230 --> 00:11:45.360 and the jobs slightly increase but everyone rotates 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:47.620 around so pair one back pair two bowler keep 00:11:47.620 --> 00:11:49.139 wicket pair three field in one side of the box 00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:50.940 pair four field another side of the box and pair 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:53.220 five field at the back where mid off and mid 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:56.639 on is that pair five develops over time to become 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.440 an umpiring pair as you get into secondary school 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:01.419 and everyone rotates around gets an idea of all 00:12:01.419 --> 00:12:04.679 the jobs the teacher or the coach stands there 00:12:05.179 --> 00:12:07.100 gets the games going, takes one or two sessions. 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:08.759 You have to be a bit patient in session one while 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.720 they understand how to build it and get going. 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.460 Once it's going, it's brilliant because the person 00:12:13.460 --> 00:12:14.620 can stand there and go, do you know what, they 00:12:14.620 --> 00:12:16.279 don't know how to do this, looking at the success 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.820 criteria, and off we go. Because everyone's had 00:12:18.820 --> 00:12:21.679 fair turns, there's no way of waiting for someone 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.379 to be out or anything, and then someone's standing 00:12:23.379 --> 00:12:25.259 there forever because they rotate and do all 00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:28.100 the jobs. How reliant do you think it is on the 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:30.919 personality, the character, the skill of the... 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:32.539 well, we'll call them a coach, but it could be 00:12:32.539 --> 00:12:34.600 a teacher, a leader, a parent, it could be anybody, 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:38.740 because we've all seen high -level operators 00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:40.980 who can just get things going with a bit of a 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:44.059 smile, a bit of a laugh, great energy, and then 00:12:44.059 --> 00:12:47.200 on the flip side, where it's a bit staid and 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.840 a bit slow, do you think it's reliant on the 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.419 communication skills of the leader of that session? 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.539 Undoubtedly, you can't question it. The more 00:12:56.539 --> 00:13:00.379 the personality of the person is... available 00:13:00.379 --> 00:13:03.820 to excite the kids but the principle is and I've 00:13:03.820 --> 00:13:06.179 seen it so many times is teachers in particular 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:09.259 like order they like routine so they can set 00:13:09.259 --> 00:13:11.940 it up the young people are therefore engaged 00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:14.639 in it and they're doing it it builds on itself 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.980 because they then want to know and they ask questions 00:13:16.980 --> 00:13:19.299 and they say well what do we do here the fact 00:13:19.299 --> 00:13:23.100 that 30 kids in a class are engaged every week 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:24.820 what you see is you see the kids who would never 00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:26.980 play in a million years love they can almost 00:13:26.980 --> 00:13:29.440 not wait for someone to be sick so they can do 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.620 the other job they've never done they can use 00:13:31.620 --> 00:13:33.600 those cones to make the box or they can do the 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.080 crease line because they want to be involved 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:37.799 everyone wants to feel part of something and 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.480 it is that structure against flex isn't it there's 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.639 room for sort of flexibility and spontaneity 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:45.799 because we've talked a lot haven't we in the 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.019 past about having very structured systems in 00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:51.639 place that actually cramp the development. And 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:53.960 if everything's too structured, it doesn't necessarily 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.039 fulfil its objective, whereas you've got a bit 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.120 more room for flexibility. What's interesting 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.659 is that we use this in our network. We have a 00:14:02.659 --> 00:14:04.679 PE company that goes to many, many schools, and 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:06.700 we use this in our network. But it's also developed 00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:10.559 to be used in the local clubs because... You 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.460 know, I've coached cricket for young people for 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:15.860 a very long time and you coach under 10s, well, 00:14:15.940 --> 00:14:18.419 let's coach them the sweep shot. And in truth, 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.000 they get bowled and run out. So why are we not 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.139 showing them how to run in pads? How are we not 00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:25.440 showing them how to stop the ball if it's going 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.240 to hit the wicket? How are we not showing them 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.360 how to hit it if it's wide for the wicket? There's 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.019 very basic things in the game itself. You see 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:35.559 so many people go in the nets and they face 25 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.549 balls. and hit one of them because only three 00:14:38.549 --> 00:14:39.970 are straight and the rest of them are hitting 00:14:39.970 --> 00:14:42.809 the side net. And with this, any ball that's 00:14:42.809 --> 00:14:45.889 wide of the cones that are all put out the same 00:14:45.889 --> 00:14:47.470 every week so you know how wide it is, they get 00:14:47.470 --> 00:14:49.649 a free hit off a tee. So everyone's engaged. 00:14:49.830 --> 00:14:51.129 Everyone can do it. It doesn't matter what the 00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:53.409 level or the standard is. But obviously a skilled 00:14:53.409 --> 00:14:57.409 club coach can look and go, what we did last 00:14:57.409 --> 00:15:00.870 week is seven of my team are run out. So the 00:15:00.870 --> 00:15:04.100 focus this week is we're going to make it. minus 00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:07.649 10 if you lose a wicket run out. but you've got 00:15:07.649 --> 00:15:09.909 to try and run every third ball somehow. You 00:15:09.909 --> 00:15:12.110 can tailor it. If you have skills, you use the 00:15:12.110 --> 00:15:15.429 system. And you see people waiting to have cricket 00:15:15.429 --> 00:15:17.230 nets. Why are they waiting around? Why aren't 00:15:17.230 --> 00:15:19.529 they playing? It's all based on being a child. 00:15:19.610 --> 00:15:21.710 We all went to the park and played a game. It's 00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:23.970 exactly the same thing. Just playing, isn't it? 00:15:24.049 --> 00:15:26.149 Yeah. In the old -fashioned sense. Exactly. I 00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:28.750 mean, genuinely, we would go to a park as kids 00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:30.610 and it was called Johnny's Field because his 00:15:30.610 --> 00:15:32.389 house was closest and we'd throw the smallest 00:15:32.389 --> 00:15:34.330 lad over the fence to unlock it on the inside 00:15:34.330 --> 00:15:36.559 and he'd unlock it and for nine months... Once 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:37.720 a year we'd play football with them and it got 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:39.539 too hot, we'd play cricket and we'd just make 00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:41.679 our own game up. And that skill has been lost. 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:43.600 And this is giving them a structure to make it 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.700 up that's safe enough people can trust. And they'll 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:49.759 just, literally, it takes 30 seconds once they've 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.519 learnt it in week one and two to make it. It's 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.679 your own register. It's everything. 20 years 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:56.720 ago, am I making this up or have I dreamt this? 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.080 There was a game called Catchy Shubby from the 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:01.179 West Indies, which was very sort of spontaneous. 00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:02.440 Again, it was a bit like what you're saying. 00:16:02.539 --> 00:16:04.820 Everyone was involved. The fielder who got the 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:07.720 ball, the fielder who got 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.659 the batter out batted nicks. That all seemed 00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:13.799 quite fast-moving and fluid. Was there a game 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:16.080 called Catchy Shubby? Yeah, Catchy Shubby. If 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.159 you go to the Caribbean, you see young people 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:21.259 playing cricket in the street. Maybe not, sadly, 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.100 as much as you used to, but there's backyard 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:25.379 cricket in Australia. People, because the weather's 00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:28.200 better, they know that means someone stands in 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.980 front of their garage door and someone runs up 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:31.740 and tries to bowl the ball to hit the garage 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:33.419 door and the batter tries to stop it. It's as 00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:36.039 simple as that. India and the rest of the Asian 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:39.330 subcontinent. People just play a game. Improvising 00:16:39.330 --> 00:16:41.210 with the kit, improvising with what the game 00:16:41.210 --> 00:16:43.309 actually looks like, depending on what conditions 00:16:43.309 --> 00:16:45.149 you've got and where you are. I'm sure lots of 00:16:45.149 --> 00:16:46.950 people have seen the Field of Dreams, Freddy 00:16:46.950 --> 00:16:49.509 Flintoff. You think of those games in the passageways 00:16:49.509 --> 00:16:51.269 in India they got involved with, absolutely brilliant. 00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:53.409 You know, fast moving, they're playing in an 00:16:53.409 --> 00:16:56.129 alleyway. There's no reason you can't... create 00:16:56.129 --> 00:16:58.110 a game and obviously out of that you you work 00:16:58.110 --> 00:17:00.250 it doesn't mean you stop coaching in fact I think 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:03.149 it increases the level of coaching and the coach's 00:17:03.149 --> 00:17:06.210 skill to have to look at a club level you know 00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:09.539 at a school level the reality is you won't get 00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:11.720 to the higher level success criteria because 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.460 you don't need to you just need to allow them 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.140 to play the game your aim in a primary school 00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:18.279 is to get them to a cricket tournament your aim 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:19.640 in a secondary school is to engage them in the 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.180 game so they'd be able to play at some point 00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:24.440 a hardball game and in the older age groups you 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:27.539 can wear pads use an incredible so you're actually 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:29.460 playing cricket you don't need to be where we 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:31.680 are now you know close to Lord's cricket ground 00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:34.460 Talk me through that whole, yeah, the coach actually 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:36.140 needs to be more skilful, even though they might 00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.819 be saying less. To the casual observer, they 00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:41.779 might be doing less, but actually they're doing 00:17:41.779 --> 00:17:44.559 more and positively inputting into that session 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.039 more, even though it might appear they're just 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.519 observing or occasionally intervening. Well, 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:52.559 you've just used the perfect word. It's interventions. 00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:55.839 It's about your feeling of what the intervention 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.980 needs to be next. And obviously, there are the... 00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:01.990 66 rag -rated success criteria which I encourage 00:18:01.990 --> 00:18:03.809 people to follow and at a club level encourage 00:18:03.809 --> 00:18:06.329 the managers who might not be cricketers to have 00:18:06.329 --> 00:18:08.309 a look at and see oh actually you know our team 00:18:08.309 --> 00:18:11.630 don't use the space well enough they don't work 00:18:11.630 --> 00:18:14.230 out how to relay throw all of those things but 00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:17.309 it's the skill of the coach at a club level to 00:18:17.309 --> 00:18:19.470 be able to or a school level if they're actually 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:23.950 a cricket coach to go ah okay what this group 00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:28.779 needs next is to understand how to bowl overarm 00:18:28.779 --> 00:18:30.619 because we've got to the stage they understand 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:33.660 how to run they understand how to cross over 00:18:33.660 --> 00:18:36.339 and send it to field it next one is how to bowl 00:18:36.339 --> 00:18:38.920 over arm then they're already in pairs they're 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:40.859 already in their boxes you give them an intervention 00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:42.640 you show them something they're going to have 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.440 a go and you say let's carry on with the game 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:46.839 do you think coaches are getting better at doing 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.099 that that set it up and let it go I think so 00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:52.960 I think also The intervention can be 20 seconds. 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.839 So you can say, right, everyone come in, run. 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.799 You know, a bit of enthusiasm, get them all in 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:58.019 and say, right, look where I'm touching my butt 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.839 over the line. That's the next non -negotiable. 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.339 This week, we are making sure we don't put our 00:19:03.339 --> 00:19:04.880 feet past the crease line because we're wasting 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.079 time. And some weeks, I always set the boxes 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.759 up because I think it's key to them realising 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:12.359 how they're going to apply it to a game. But 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.200 some weeks, you might only have one or two. pairs 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.799 back because you actually need to focus on high 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.539 catching or focus on stopping the ball or where 00:19:22.539 --> 00:19:25.309 the fielders would want to stand. There might 00:19:25.309 --> 00:19:27.390 be weeks where you don't do that much of the 00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:29.390 actual game, but you do want to apply it back 00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:31.630 to the game. And that's the skill of the person 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:34.269 using a game -based approach. Yeah, that definitely 00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:36.210 is a skill as well. What about you then, Sully? 00:19:36.329 --> 00:19:38.589 Because you're so passionate about this and so 00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.369 driven. Where does that come from? I think it 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:44.190 comes from the fact that my parents are Irish. 00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:48.339 So when I grew up and... looked at the TV and 00:19:48.339 --> 00:19:50.160 saw this game, I thought, oh, this is interesting, 00:19:50.259 --> 00:19:52.839 and got my brother out in the garden and we played. 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.440 But we had no pathways or nothing like that. 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:57.900 We'd ask my parents, who were amazingly supportive 00:19:57.900 --> 00:20:00.480 with the little we had, but they had no idea 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.059 at all. I think it's the passion to give everyone 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:04.440 an opportunity. Then when I went to secondary 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.279 school, I know that they had a cricket trial, 00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:09.880 South East London School, so we're not talking 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.799 about high level here particularly, and I know 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.279 I hit the stumps three times, the wicket three 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:19.000 times. But the teacher wasn't looking. And therefore, 00:20:19.059 --> 00:20:21.460 when they came to pick the groups, and the year 00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:23.059 I went to school, you never argue with the teachers. 00:20:23.099 --> 00:20:25.900 It wasn't a very safe thing to do. I wasn't in 00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:28.359 the top 30. I thought, that's a bit weird. But 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.839 I just knew I loved the game. So I kept going 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.940 and kept going, and then people would drop off. 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:35.579 And then eventually someone said, why don't you 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:37.420 join a club? And I was very fortunate to join 00:20:37.420 --> 00:20:40.660 an amazing club and to be taught the game, Bexley 00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:43.059 Cricket Club. I finally got to a place where 00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:45.299 I was playing. I wasn't the school team. That 00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:47.319 was brilliant. I mean, we'd only play a few games 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.160 a year, and it would be on a ropey pitch or whatever, 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.539 but I think that's where it comes from, my passion 00:20:52.539 --> 00:20:54.420 to give everyone an opportunity. Because who 00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.539 knows who might love it? I just love seeing the 00:20:57.539 --> 00:21:00.980 look on kids' faces, because you can see, oh, 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.500 I've achieved something here. I know it sounds 00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:06.220 funny. I've set the box up. The look of joy on 00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:07.720 someone's face when they've created a crease 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.099 line with some cones in front of a blue plastic 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:14.000 wicket. To me, it's a joy. I don't want to pump 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.779 your tyres up too much, but your personality 00:21:15.779 --> 00:21:19.339 is perfect for... It fits perfectly, doesn't 00:21:19.339 --> 00:21:22.039 it? Because you are renowned as high energy. 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.319 You've always got a smile on your face and you're 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.740 just a complete natural when it comes to delivering 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:29.200 this sort of thing. You always appear like you're 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.119 loving it. Well, I think the truth is I do. I'd 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.200 do it for nothing if I could afford to do it 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:35.480 for nothing. Don't tell people that. No, but 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.480 I would. It's an honour, isn't it? But also, 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:40.299 you know, you get some challenges because, you 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:41.779 know, not everyone sticks to the task all the 00:21:41.779 --> 00:21:43.259 time, but you pick up skills to be able to do 00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:45.039 it. And I think part of it is passing on that 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.079 legacy as well. I don't know that we... We do 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.240 lots of how to coach, but we don't do a lot of 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.460 emotional connection from the coach to the players 00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:55.099 and how we really get them to understand. I've 00:21:55.099 --> 00:21:56.759 always said to everyone in teaching that the 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.769 kids will always give you space. and give you 00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:02.950 a chance if they know you care. And if they know 00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:06.089 you care, you'll be okay, you'll do well. And 00:22:06.089 --> 00:22:07.730 I think that's part of where I come from, because 00:22:07.730 --> 00:22:09.650 I do care. I want them all to get a chance. And 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:11.390 it's interesting how you demonstrate how you 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:12.990 care, isn't it? Because I suppose that is through 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:15.970 body language and really engaging with the individual 00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:19.369 players and making sure you're in the room when 00:22:19.369 --> 00:22:22.049 you're delivering rather than looking at your 00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:23.730 phone and being distracted. I mean, it's all 00:22:23.730 --> 00:22:26.829 those little skills that demonstrate how much 00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:30.480 you care about that. player at this session well 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.180 I think in all the coaching things you've done 00:22:32.180 --> 00:22:33.559 you always pick up information I always remember 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:35.680 someone saying to me I think it was more of a 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.660 teaching environment but saying if you've got 00:22:37.660 --> 00:22:40.480 30 kids your aim should be to speak to all 30 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.019 of them in that 45 minute session so I try to 00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:45.359 do that it's not always possible but even if 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:47.059 you're speaking to them as a group of people 00:22:47.059 --> 00:22:50.140 and personally not just 30 kids and using their 00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:52.480 name for instance names are very important I 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:54.900 know nicknames they love a nickname they love 00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:56.480 a little joke and you build up your little bank 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.180 of jokes team will support them I use football 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:02.960 all the time because that is well known to everyone 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.839 again the link is everyone understands All you've 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.119 got to do with the football is get it in the 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.319 opposition goal. It's simple. We have to simplify 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.339 cricket. And then people will understand it and 00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:17.339 engage in it more. Yeah, and it is a game that 00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:20.380 can so easily be lost in complexity, can't it, 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.000 in detail. But I suppose that's why football 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.359 was successful. It was a jumpers for goalpost 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.480 thing. And that's what we're trying to strive 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:29.299 for in cricket. Well, the jumpers for goalpost 00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:32.549 is the same as, you know, I take... the chairs 00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:34.069 out of the classroom sometimes because people 00:23:34.069 --> 00:23:35.849 say we haven't got enough wickets. There's 30 00:23:35.849 --> 00:23:38.289 of them there. Or dustbins. Anything, you know. 00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:40.849 There's a way of inventing, you know. Another 00:23:40.849 --> 00:23:43.190 passion is trying to get secondary school kids 00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.509 and even older primary school kids. We should 00:23:45.509 --> 00:23:47.529 have cricket nets in schools they're allowed 00:23:47.529 --> 00:23:49.809 to use with safety instructions. I don't mean 00:23:49.809 --> 00:23:52.150 expensive ones. I mean literally bits of netting 00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:54.890 so they can go in and hit the ball. Now in primary 00:23:54.890 --> 00:23:55.930 schools, quite often, they're not even allowed 00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:58.690 to foam football, which is bad. You have to let 00:23:58.690 --> 00:24:01.349 people play game. Until you explain it's the 00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:02.849 bat that's dangerous, they always think it's 00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:05.009 the ball, and it's a tennis ball. It's the bat 00:24:05.009 --> 00:24:08.190 that causes people lifelong issues. Hence, the 00:24:08.190 --> 00:24:10.990 box is to keep people away from the bats until 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:13.210 the ball's been hit or missed. And the ball's 00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:15.230 not given out until the box is made, because 00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:17.809 that's a recipe for disaster. Because the ball, 00:24:17.990 --> 00:24:20.329 you know, a tennis ball, and as you get bigger 00:24:20.329 --> 00:24:22.049 school fields and secondary schools, you can 00:24:22.049 --> 00:24:23.549 space out more, so you can use an Incrediball 00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:26.769 or a Wimbledon ball more. That's not that dangerous. 00:24:27.069 --> 00:24:29.630 The bat will do you lifelong damage, so... You 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:31.250 have to know that. Well, it's been great to catch 00:24:31.250 --> 00:24:33.009 up. I've really enjoyed it. When are we next 00:24:33.009 --> 00:24:35.670 on a bender in Corfu then? Well, if we leave 00:24:35.670 --> 00:24:39.390 it 20 years, we might not make it, but I'll definitely 00:24:39.390 --> 00:24:41.490 meet you in Corfu at the Marina Ground or even 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.789 that magnificent, the ground in the centre there. 00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:46.890 Absolutely brilliant. And when you're asked questions 00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:49.230 about which team's batting by all Italian and 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.829 French tourists, which ideally they wouldn't 00:24:51.829 --> 00:24:53.450 need to know because we keep the game simple. 00:24:53.769 --> 00:24:55.710 It's a bat versus a ball. And if you've got some 00:24:55.710 --> 00:24:57.839 fielders, great. Good stuff. Nice to see you. 00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:59.400 Take care. Good to see you, Tim. Cheers.