Thank you. Hello and welcome to this episode
of The icoachcricket Podcast. Martin Fairn
founded Gazing Performance, a mindset coaching
company. He works at first class counties, including
Worcestershire, with players, coaches and even
umpires. His work has also taken him to Lionesses
football, All Blacks rugby, Formula One and the
worlds of business and the military. He's put
together a Red2Blue system, helping performers
execute their skills under pressure with clarity
and calm. Martin's been telling Tim Dellor about
how we can all coach mindset skills into our
young players first up actually martin let's
just establish what you do because it's quite
broad ranging it's a topic which i'm sure we
could sit here and talk about for five or six
days but let's just work out exactly what you
do and where you're coming at it from. I'm CEO
of Gazing, Gazing Red2Blue, Gazing Performance
we're a training company initially we've been
around for 26 years now and our focus has always
been enabling individuals teams and organizations
with the capacity to do well when the pressure
is on now If you take the business world, for
example, that covers a myriad of areas from customer
sales and service all the way through to management
and leadership. We also work in education now,
same thing, where we're trying to enable teachers
and students to do well when the pressure is
on. And that's now, of course, into sport as
well. So it really is about providing the services,
including the development, the delivery of training,
and then the ongoing coaching to support. doing
well when it really matters. And just as a very
early aside, do you find that when you're in
a business environment or an education environment,
they're tapping you up for stories from sport
and vice versa? So when you're working in sport,
they're always fascinated in the whole, the
grass is greener, isn't it? Because their whole
life in sport, they want to hear about the outside
world. And I'm imagining in business, they're
always asking you about football or rugby or
cricket. I mean, it's compellingly appealing
to... Depends who you're talking to in business.
because it can put people off someone says it's
just like being in a rugby scrum and you go well
it isn't and we're not so there are some flaws
but generally as a way of understanding for example
in sport the sort of jeopardy of performance
and win -loss consequences in the fishbowl if
it's talking about elite sport so people do like
some of the transfer of lessons learned and focus
and skills and processes put in place in different
organisations and they cross over and actually
I would say it also crosses over from sport into
business or from business into sport now as well
because there are elements that you can take
where you learn from businesses that are well
led perform well do really well when it matters
that could transfer into how sporting organizations
are run yeah because people are always intrigued
with worlds that aren't their own aren't they
until you end up getting dragged into conversations
if you're working in a cricket a county cricket
setup they always want to know about a business
world or a Formula One world or whatever it might
be so and that is a joy of it really I mean I
suppose and having spoken to you a little bit
about your own background that it's the thing
that binds all sports together isn't it really
that the mental side of it each sport has got
their own technical tactical physical requirements
and nuances but the The psychology, the mindset
stuff covers all of them, doesn't it? Completely.
And actually, I would say more than that. If
you start with humans, and we do, so it's human
first, athlete second, or coach second, or business
leader second. The notion of human first means
that it runs across all areas because it populates
businesses, schools, sporting organisations,
it all extends from community to elite. And then,
of course, into the military and into the blue
light services. You've got human beings. We are
all entirely capable of doing well when it matters,
under pressure, if we've got the right resources.
the right mindset, but equally we're as vulnerable
as the next person. And that's why it's so compelling
to get across the board like that. And is that
just sort of top end? Because clearly if you're
working at the elite level, whenever I hear football
managers say, oh, it's about the individuals,
they need to be quality individuals first and
then football the second. You hear that from
managers all the time. And yes, I get that in
a professional changing room where you're there
24 -7 but if you're down at Twickenham Cricket
Club with the under -8s I suppose it's a bit
more subtle isn't it but the same thing holds
true. It completely does. And if you take under
-8s as an example, as you just said, so if you
talk to them about three things, which is often
where we start a conversation with a group or
a team or an individual, you say, look, we're
just here today to talk a little bit about performance.
And you say to some under -8s, what does that
mean? They go, well, winning or losing. And then
they go, OK, we'll get that. Now, to win or avoid
losing, you ought to do well with your performance.
So then you talk to them about pressure. Is there
any pressure? And they go, oh, yeah, from mum
or dad or the coach. And then they go, well,
we're going to talk a little bit about mindset
anyone ever reflected on what goes on in there
so they'll go yes so the idea is easy at whatever
level you happen to be at someone asked me yesterday
said oh you must be difficult to talk to
people who where there's no pressure in the jobs
they do and I said well take a barista In Starbucks
on a Monday morning on Oxford Street. It's a
different sort of pressure, but it's big pressure,
isn't it? Completely. And therefore, once you
go with humans, the question is, what's the nature
of the job that you do? The talent, the capability,
the expectations around what you do? Where does
the pressure come from? And then how resourced
are you? How ready are you to deal with that
pressure and ensure that you do well in the moments
that matter? And actually staying with the under
-8s theme. I remember, I'm sure you did, because
you played decent sport when you were a youngster.
I remember feeling physically sick before I went
into... bat as an eight -year -old and actually
you haven't got the emotional mechanisms in place
at that stage so in some ways although you immediately
think of the top level when we're talking about
psychology it's possibly even more relevant for
the youngsters. Yeah I couldn't agree more in
fact I think if someone said to me where do you
start I think waiting till they get to the pinnacle
whatever the pinnacle is in whichever sport happens
to be in is arguably not too late. but it's later
than it should be. And so when do you start?
Well, once you've had the conversation I've just
said with eight, nine, ten, that's the time to
start. And we talked a little bit about Erica
Parkinson, who's the young footballer who's just
been called into the Lionesses at 17 and a half,
18. We started work together at 12. She was 12
years old and she already knew about performance.
She already knew about pressure. She already
knew that sickness feeling when you make a mistake
or when you're preparing for a big game, it might
be a cup final or something. And so she embraced
the idea of working on her mindset with the naivety
that comes when you haven't worked it all out
and think you've got all the answers. So let's
take Erica, or any young, so it doesn't need
to be such a high -profile performer. With that
young athlete, do you incorporate it into the
rest of their training or are you doing standalone
seminars in a classroom or is it the informal
conversations over a coffee or how is the best
approach, do you think, when you're working with
youngsters to try and make them, and ultimately
it's mentally tougher, isn't it, I suppose? Do
you know the pathway to doing that? Without creating
a barrier, which is one of the risks with the
way information around mindset can be delivered,
is our perspective. And it doesn't mean we're
right, but our perspective is that mindset is
a skill to develop rather than a problem to fix.
I have a feeling it still remains in most people's
minds in football as a problem that needs fixing.
And I suspect if that's the approach you take
with young people. nobody really wants to necessarily
acknowledge that they have a problem that needs
fixing from a mindset perspective. Unless, of
course, they do, in which case, like everybody,
we should get access to mental health support.
But when it comes to mindset and that feeling
you described about going into bat when you're
eight or nine years old and maybe in an elder
team or something like that, that's a skill in
our view. And therefore, once it's positioned
as a skill, whether it's over a cup of coffee
initially, or probably wouldn't be a coffee with
an 11 -year -old, but having a, you know, sit
down and talk about it. An orange squash. An
orange squash, exactly. And so you start that
notion and you go, well, let's just talk about
mindset. And then you present it as a skill and
immediately accessible because they can understand
it like most people understand skills. And then
they go, OK, well, how do I do that? And the
simplicity and the way that we describe it makes
it accessible immediately. And then you just
talk to them about the different scenarios and
how they use it in those scenarios. So you're
being preemptive rather than reactive. Is that
a summary? So in the same way as you teach players
to hit a cover drive, you get your head over
the ball. You're building that in as part of
the kit they've got. The beauty of this, and
we will get there with football. You can probably
remember when the idea of the GPS trackers was
first introduced in football, and I bet you if
you spoke to some of the footballers who'd been
around for a while, said, we're going to put
a little mechanism on your back and it's going
to track everywhere you run, they would have
probably given you a fairly short response. Nowadays,
you can't move on a training field without having
a tracker. mindset and mentality will get to
that point eventually but it needs more approaches
like ours that reduce the impact the feeling
that it's a problem needs fixing without dismissing
the role that sports psychs and psychologists
and the therapy approach to mentality is needed
when it's needed but actually the idea of integrating
it into the work the coaches do and so they start
to build into the preparation for the teams and
the individuals. The idea of pressure, where
does it come from? Are you ready for that pressure?
So getting ready to be ready for the moment of
the match, the tournament, the season. You described
it as a barrier, I think, earlier on, but there
is a bit of a taboo around the whole subject
still, isn't there? I mean, it's sad, but when
I do interviews with football managers or footballers,
if I go anywhere near the mental side of the
game, you can see them physically recoiling.
They close down. If I talk about their speed
carrying the ball or their ability to jump and
head it, they're fine. They'll talk all day about
that, or playing five across the back rather
than four. No problem, they'll open that. As
soon as you start mentioning the mental side
of it, it's not them. It's just they're worried
about the perception of it. So there is still
a bit of a taboo, isn't there? Yeah, I suspect
completely. And yet the irony is one of the best
managers in the world in Guardiola, there's video
clips around saying it's the top three inches.
And so they are very quick to say it is. but
they are much less quick to embrace it and understand
it enough so that they can integrate it into
the training. That's not a criticism of anyone
individually. I think it's just an observation
of the culture of football. And by the way, it's
an observation, a little bit of coaches in sport.
The more that we can enable coaches to appreciate
mentality in an accessible, practical way to
integrate it into the training. And then when
you have... an organization people like us who
can come and provide the the additional layer
of of expertise if you want to call it that around
mindset so you can much like going on the putting
green on the golf you go we're going to talk
about playing the game today and it's got all
aspects from driving to second shot to chipping
off the green to putting on the green but then
sometimes you take the putting and you go We're
going to work on that today and you really dig
into what that means. That's like the diamond
that you talked about earlier on. Yeah. So that's
a specialist element. But there is a, whenever
I talk to coaches and I always say, are you a
psychologist? Are you a sports psychologist?
They go, no, no, no. But every coach is to some
degree a psychologist, whether they like it or
not. Because with all your interactions, you're
going to make some sort of... mental impact on
that player, aren't you? So there's no hiding
away from it for every coach. They need to have
this. skill set to it so I totally get there's
a souped up specialist role but for generic coaches
they've got to be across this for me that's the
opportunity enable the coaches and the people
around the teams or around the individuals with
this notion of mindset we're working with one
of the very well -known drivers abby pulling
she's on the path of becoming one of the first
drivers who's a woman and she has a team of people
around her and wherever possible her coach the
S&C we've made sure that they understand the
language and the concept of Red2Blue the framework
such that it can be referenced in some of the
preparation and of course in some of the debriefs
and actually I think football coach they know
it because they talk about it and if you ask
what do you do they sort of imply what you just
said yeah well we're always talking about mindset
but are they deliberately extracting it and putting
attention on it so that it's actually got its
own flow and its own progress. Dropped in with
every session they do and every drill they do
and in every match day, they've got to be aware
of that. And I'm sure a lot are. And you keep
mentioning this word mindset. So I'm thinking
Carol Dweck and growth mindset and fixed mindset.
There's a lot more to it than that, I'm sure.
But my fairly shallow understanding of it, when
you use the word mindset, are you talking about
emotions or mental toughness or what are we talking
about? Well first of all there's science and
neurology and the academic component of it quite
rightly because there's quite a lot that can
go on in one's head and the more we understand
it the better off we're going to be and they
say we're just scratching the surface of that.
I'm not a psychologist, we're not, our organisation
isn't but actually when we started our founding
partner with me Dr Kerry Evans came to our development
process with a really deep, good understanding
of cognitive psychology, mentality and everything
that goes on in there. And, for example, the
Carol Dweck concept of growth mindset versus
fixed is really compelling. I mean, everyone
goes, oh, yeah, I want a growth mindset. I don't
really want to be fixed. But they become outcomes.
And really the next question should be, well,
how do you go about doing that? How do you create?
with an individual or a group or a whole organisation,
this notion of a growth mindset. What do they
do? How do you enable them with the mental skills,
in our word, to be able to do that? So we like
growth mindset, but it's how you get there that
fascinates you. Is that fair? I think it's the
acknowledgement, the fluidity of your mentality
is really what we need to come to terms with.
And the idea that rather than it being fixed...
as either someone is mentally strong or not or
someone has great mental skills or they don't.
The idea that it's a skill that you can develop
and that we are as vulnerable to the things that
we can't control as we are capable of building
the capacity, the resilience to recognise them,
deal with them and move on. That's interesting
because that almost takes us to nature versus
nurture, doesn't it? And people get pigeonholed
as to being a specific character and are they
mentally weak? In cricket you hear that all the
time about that. particularly say are they just
not mentally tough enough or they're not resilient
enough and what you're saying there is well they
might not be but we can work on that and we can
develop that and we can make them into a beast
that is different to where they are at the moment
you can develop that side of them in the same
way as you can develop their their strength I
think it's lazy coaching I do I just think it's
lazy I think that actually if we acknowledge
that physicality is a thing, of course we're
going to work on the physical skills that matter
for whatever the sport is or whatever the activity
is that you're involved in. I think if there's
technical elements to it, you know yourself,
you work hard on the technical aspects and as
the level goes up, which is exactly what happens
as athletes go through the pathway, the level
increases, the level of skill expected increases.
Same thing with tactical awareness and understanding
the decisions you make and the nature of the
pressure on them. Well, the same thing's true
of your mentality. So what our job is to give
people just a simple framework. And I think that
probably the overwhelmingly exciting thing for
a lot of people who learn more about it is that
they own their mindset. The role of the coach
and the organisation is to create a framework
and a language and the opportunity to learn more
and practice it. But they own the mindset. You
own your response to the situations that you
experience. Yeah, which is really good to grasp,
isn't it? And something that fascinates me, this
is a bit of a random tangent, by the way, is...
how important your formative years are and your
experience as a youngster in setting you up to
be able to perform at an elite level. So traditionally,
there's the notion that people who are brought
up in very cosy, comfortable environments, they
don't have to really fight for very much and
it all comes fairly easily and naturally to them,
maybe won't be as well equipped when they reach
the... top level and they're really tested and
challenged and they perhaps fail and they don't
know how to respond to that as opposed to somebody
who's had to rough it a bit and has had a tougher
upbringing I don't know if you in your experience
of working with lots of elite performers across
different fields you you can see that and you
perhaps you're starting in a different place
depending on their background I I think that's
a I mean that's why the nature nurture conversation
is kind of kind of current and prevalent is that
we are a product of our upbringing, we're a product
of our experiences and therefore what has formed
our capacity to respond to situations, to cope
with pressure, to deal with some of the discomfort
is what we've experienced to that point. So I
think that's true and it would be fair to say
that as people experience more and more discomfort,
more and more disappointment, more and more sadness,
it probably does increase their capacity just
because they realise at some point you're going
to come across it and then you... have to work
out a way to move past it move through it move
on and that's not suggesting that coaches should
somehow create trauma no but but there is a commonality
I think I might say you'll know more than this
than me of course but the kids who have had trauma
or but bereavement actually is an example I think
isn't it you say if you're from a family where
there's been a significant bereavement in your
life you can see there's some sort of correlation
between how far they they go on to become an
elite performer yeah you're right and and actually
it's the recognition of the discomfort and what
you learn from it and how quickly you're able
to reset and so one of the there's a few myths
around largely populated by various media, social
media and things like that nowadays. It's always
the media's fault. Perfectly happy to blame you.
But the idea that people should find a way to
going through their life without discomfort or
without the disappointment that comes with sometimes
the pressure being too much is just flawed. It's
a myth. life involves disappointment involves
upset and actually it's one of the great teachers
because if you take sport as an example or exams
or things that you care about you are going to
come across times when you don't quite get what
you wanted or the situation is not what quite
what you experienced. And that is going to generate
a discomfort, a feeling of sadness or anger or
upset, whatever it might be. And in the end,
you have to work out, which is what we do, we
have to move on. That's why bereavement is not
a bad example, because in the end, the sadness
that goes with it is perfectly human. But in
the end, we work out a pathway back to our lives
and the way we need to carry that up. Well, that
in isolation, and I'm not suggesting that losing
your wicket or dropping a catch is. the same
as bereavement that would be ridiculous but actually
the disappointment that comes and the natural
human response the feelings associated with that
are human rather than fight those feelings or
somehow suggest that they shouldn't exist or
go of course they happen it's perfectly human
you accept them you recognize them you accept
them and the next step is then to choose what
you do next and that's the skill yeah I suppose
the other element is a sense of perspective as
well so for some people who get too consumed
in whatever sport it might be, if you have had
something far more significant go on in your
life, you're more capable of keeping things in
perspective, which is a sort of byproduct. So
let's talk about opening bowlers. I mean, you've
probably come across a few opening bowlers who
get quite upset when, you know, someone shells
a catch in the slips. Or an LBW decision turned
down. Well, LBW doesn't go their way. You can
see a natural, instinctive, emotionally heated
response in that moment. And what we would say
with the coaching we provide is, of course, that
is a normal human response. The question they
have to face, and their captain and the player
leaders have to face, is at what point does that
emotional response become unhelpful? And it means
unhelpful today. individual in terms of either
the next ball or the next over or the next spell
or for the rest of the team in terms of their
performance and how it goes so that that's the
question that you face and that's the question
that you look to build on with the coach and
the team to build that capacity to Not remove
the disappointment because the disappointment
comes as an emotional connection to what you're
doing, which is why we do it with intensity.
Because you care. Because you care. It's just
that when it doesn't go the way you want it,
that human response is normal. It's just that
you get to choose how long it lasts. So ability
to manage your emotions, I suppose, and that's
what we're trying to help players with. And it
perfectly leads me on to mental toughness, which
is something we hear bandied around a lot as
an expression, but there are a lot of, in cricket,
we've, I think, got it down to seven components
of mental toughness. That might be beyond cricket,
I don't know, but I've only known it through
a cricket environment. So things like resilience
and inner belief, you know, real proper self
-belief in what you're doing and the ability
to concentrate and focus and fight. that so many
elements to mental toughness and what you've
just outlined there is basically a key component
of it isn't it when when the chips are down you
can still come back yep our way of saying it
is the first acknowledgement I'll go back to
what I said is that our view is it's as a skill
because once people are okay with mentality being
a skill to develop then all of the doors are
opened into preparing yourself for these moments
that are going to come in whatever pursuit it
is you're doing. We've worked with a mountain
climber, for example, and the pursuit of climbing
high mountains, she broke several records. She's
done the top 14 mountains, starting with Everest
when she was 19. She's from Teddington, with
not many mountains in Teddington, but Adriana
Brownlee. And she knew in the preparing that
she was, that she was going to come across those
disappointments at times. Because conditions
change, things happen outside your control. And
the resilience comes, first of all, to prepare
yourself for the discomfort that you know is
coming. And also sometimes the disappointment
when you're not able to carry on with what you
do. And that skill is both developable, it's
contextual. The variability of our capacity to
cope is a little bit to do with our experiences
that we've had over time, but also the preparation
that we have gone through. Whilst you're on mountain
climbers, I think so courage is a key thing we
talk about. And I'm not necessarily talking about
the physical courage of facing a 90 mile an hour
bowler, although that is clearly an element
of courage. But I'm thinking a lot about bravery
to run up and reproduce what you've practiced
in training in front of 60 ,000 people in a T20
World Cup final. Is that sort of a different
mental courage? is so sought after amongst players.
And again, that takes a lot of training, doesn't
it, to get players equipped to cope on that stage.
So we would say it comes with preparation and
it comes with a predictable recognition that
the pressure is going to come at that moment.
So just with Erica, to use her as an example,
when we were 12, I said to her, what would you
like to do? She said, I want to play in the World
Cup for England. I said, well, that's good. It's
a good ambition and an aspiration, but it's going
to take some work. And so from a mindset perspective,
I'm not a technical coach when it comes to football.
If you have the talent. If you have the opportunity,
the next bit is the work you put in to develop
all of those areas to make it possible. But for
sure, you won't be playing in front of 80 ,000
people at the age of 12. So at what point does
the pressure increase and at what point do you
start to work on your readiness for going out
in front of those people and the pressure that
comes with that? That for us is all part of the
development phase of building mental skills to
prepare you for the moments that matter. And
is there a stage you can throw somebody into that?
Too quickly, do you think? Because you could
presumably undo a player's mental setup if you
put them into that hostile environment too soon.
I think the danger is you put people in unprepared.
That's the risk. I mean, there's a 14 -year -old
in... in the IPL. Well, that was exactly who
I was thinking about whilst we were talking here.
He's extraordinary, isn't he? He doesn't seem
too phased, does he? Unphased, yeah. Now, that
will tell you, and this is what you know this
because you've already started with the diamond,
is that performance under pressure. and elite
sustainable high performance will not only be
about one thing and some people don't like that
answer but the truth is there's a combination
of talent the physical preparation the game understanding
and the mental skills and even then it'll be
contextual because it'll depend upon where you're
asked to do so it is a combination of factors
but being mentally ready to be able to take on
that pressure and be ready for that and deal
with the disappointments that might well come
when you face them is part of that journey. As
coaches supporting them through that inevitable
experience, because they're all going to fail
at some point. In fact, cricket's one of those
sports where you fail more often than you succeed,
don't you? As a batter, you go out, even if you're
Joe Root, you're not scoring 50 or 100 every
time, but once in three if you're Joe Root and
you're lucky. And I think jockeys say they...
Do they fall one every seven in national hunting
racing and then perhaps win one every ten if
you're Ryan Moore or O'Sheen Murphy? A lot of
sport is about failure. When you get to the top
level, it's no different. Yeah, which is why
the notion that it's all about winning is flawed
because of course we prepare to win and of course
we want to be successful because that's why we
do what we do. We want to be successful. And
we remember the moments when we do, but we equally
remember the moments that we don't. And those
are the ones that we need to be ready for. So
when parents introduce me to their young son
or daughter and they say, I want you to teach
him or her to be, you know, the next Wimbledon
or them. Now you go, well, maybe. And I want
you to teach them to win and understand what
it's like. I go, I bet you don't. What you really
need them to know is what it takes to lose. That's
more important, isn't it? It's how you cope with
bouncing back from losing. That's really what
we're trying to coach players. Roger Federer
has it right. And I think in his well -known
speech now, 54 % of the points he played in the
major matches he's competed in, he lost. Is that
right? I love that. And it's a great speech because
that's saying, he's saying students in a university
in the US. That's what you need to be ready for.
You prepare hard, you do everything you can do
to be successful in every moment and in everything
that you do, but you have to know the fact that
you will not be. And the question and the mental
resilience, if you want to call it that, the
challenge that we face from a mindset perspective
is how quickly we recognise our response, how
quickly we accept the fact that it's us and not
VAR or the umpire or the exam or whoever we would
like to blame outside that, and then how quickly
we are to choose the next step. And it's that.
helpful choice that links to the ability to be
resilient I suppose that control the controllables
which is a pretty ugly old expression that's
been kicking around for a long time I think it's
got a lot of pitfalls in that expression all
weeks but what you've just said there is one
element that you can control is is how you react
to these situations yeah you're right to raise
there are flaws there are pitfalls in it and
it's it's lazily used again by coaches who say
yep just and the media and the media they're
controlling the controllables because it's us
because it's a cool saying but actually say to
them what do you mean by that Just exactly what
do you mean by that? And what they're trying
to say is we're going to focus on the things
that we can control and not worry about the stuff
we can't control. And then say to somebody, right,
when something happens that you really don't
want to happen, that makes you feel distinctly
unhappy, sad, angry, what do you do to allow
you to forget about that, which is the coaching,
and only focus on the things you can control?
And as a human being, it's like saying to somebody,
don't think of pink elephants. Because in your
head is how you feel about what you can't control.
And the skill is to be able to recognise it,
quickly and shift your attention in the moments
that matter two more then first of all it strikes
me that coaches who are on duty with teams in
intense environments so if you're a cricket coach
on a tour and that can be your club under 13s
on a tour of the Channel Islands or down in Devon
or wherever it might be, or if you're looking
after an IPL side or an international side, you're
in contact so much with the players, aren't you?
Is it fair that you have to be not on your guard,
you've got to be authentic, but you need to be
aware that in every little exchange, you can
shift a player's mindset with what you say or
what you do or how you behave. And actually,
if you've got that... as a coach, then you've
basically got to live it 24 -7. You can't be
sort of erratic. You're thinking, right now we're
training, so now we'll do the psychology bit.
And those tours, I don't know how coaches do
it really, because you're on duty the whole time,
aren't you? So I'll give you two examples, which
are different ends. So I think it's a lovely
example. You've got 15... young young people
and they're on a tour and they don't care they
want to be but by the way perspective will tell
you that this is not an elite tour with the whole
world watching this is a group of under 13s or
under 14s or on a tour somewhere they want to
enjoy what they're doing they want to learn a
little bit about playing that sport at that level
in a different place and they want to learn all
the time and as you do that as a coach you are
going to be impacting the mentality of those
players individually and collectively all the
way through it. If you said to me, where would
we put the attention and the energy in terms
of development of mental skills? I'd say coaches
will be the ones that you really spend because
they have that capacity to unhelpfully be detrimental
in the mental skill, the mentality of the players
that they're with and the young people they're
with. But equally, they could create the environment
where it genuinely contributes to the positive
development, the helpful development of those
mental skills. There's one. Now go all the way
to the elite level and ask yourself, did the
coaches responsible, were they ready mentally
for the experience? And was the work done to
prepare them for everything that was likely to
occur and the pressures that were entirely predictable
and the likely outcomes? You prepare to win,
but you know that you won't. Were we ready mentally?
Parents, I suppose, is the other element because
they can, I've often seen excellent sessions.
delivered by coaches to younger kids and you
just know that the parents are going to undo
all the good work in the drive on the way home
by things they say or their attitude towards
it so that that's another one isn't it that we
could probably talk about just um you'll do you'll
deal with that as well because you just know
that and listen parents i've got young my daughters
are 23 and 21 you want them to do well in whatever
they do of course you do and you want to help
them do well in all that you do. And so the notion
that you should sometimes take a step backwards,
just pause for a moment. It is so difficult to
do. But that's what coaches need you to do. And
some sports credit, they don't let parents into
the swimming pool or into the gymnastics center
or wherever it might be because they know the
impact they can have. But you can't let... parents
not watch the football, but you know the impact
they'll have. So the notion that parenting is
well done shouting louder and louder to tell
your son or daughter to score more is probably
not the most helpful. Educating the parents as
much as anything. I agree. I think it's a huge
opportunity to take this framework that we've
created because we're asked to now in businesses
and say, could we take this home for our family?
And we go, absolutely you could because it starts
human first, family first. employee or business
leader second and the last thing I was going
to admit because I think this struck a chord
with you and we mentioned it a few minutes ago
was the media's part in this and when you're
making judgments on players mental setups from
afar so I'm guilty of this because half my job
is doing sports commentary and I'm always casting
dispersions about footballers or rowers or jockeys
i'm fully aware that some people will listen
to this girl what a hypocrite but it's a real
danger isn't there that we without even speaking
to a player you make some sort of comment or
make a judgment on someone's psychology and really
and this goes back to one of our fundamental
coaching points you've got to know the individual
so well how many as a person their life they're
away from the sport in the sport before you can
make any valid judgment on someone's psychological
makeup. Yeah, I think you're right to call out
the media and actually call out coaches and leaders
and generally and teachers even probably. We
know that mentality is a thing. It's traditionally
difficult to measure. We've done a lot of work
in the military. So we worked with the British
Army, with the Gurkhas, and we've also now got
a contract with Joint Special Operations in the
US. They're busy at the moment, but same thing.
understanding the part that mentality plays and
being able to recognise and ask the question,
what role did our mindset play in the decision
that was made or the action that was taken, is
a fair question. And having a simple framework
to help you do that would be much easier. So
I think it is okay to raise the question mentally,
were they prepared? were they ready in the moment
and what's going to be done to reflect on what
part that played it just requires a second level
question to ask about mindset and we've provided
a simple framework that is used from the top
of the mountain to the new zealand all blacks
to the military to blue light services to businesses
to schools that just says look there is a simple
way of talking about it did it come from the
red Was your attention diverted, distracted,
or was it a decision that was made with clarity
of thought, a real perspective and an ability
to focus in on the job at hand? Martin, I've
really enjoyed our chat. I said at the start
we could easily talk for five or six days. And
we nearly have. But it's been great. And thank
you so much for covering such a broad area of
this. It's been great catching up. Thank you.
And thoroughly enjoyed it. It is a fabulous topic.
It's a current topic nowadays because of the
mental health challenge that we're facing. So
we shouldn't duck our responsibility as a society
in that area and all the casualties of that. But
what an unbelievably empowering way to open up
a conversation about building mental skills and
giving people the capacity to own not only their
response when things go well, but also their
response when they don't.