WEBVTT 00:00:01.149 --> 00:00:06.610 Thank you. Hello and welcome to this episode 00:00:06.610 --> 00:00:09.810 of The icoachcricket Podcast. Martin Fairn 00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:13.050 founded Gazing Performance, a mindset coaching 00:00:13.050 --> 00:00:16.170 company. He works at first class counties, including 00:00:16.170 --> 00:00:18.969 Worcestershire, with players, coaches and even 00:00:18.969 --> 00:00:22.329 umpires. His work has also taken him to Lionesses 00:00:22.329 --> 00:00:25.690 football, All Blacks rugby, Formula One and the 00:00:25.690 --> 00:00:28.329 worlds of business and the military. He's put 00:00:28.329 --> 00:00:31.329 together a Red2Blue system, helping performers 00:00:31.329 --> 00:00:33.670 execute their skills under pressure with clarity 00:00:33.929 --> 00:00:36.990 and calm. Martin's been telling Tim Dellor about 00:00:36.990 --> 00:00:39.590 how we can all coach mindset skills into our 00:00:39.590 --> 00:00:42.130 young players first up actually martin let's 00:00:42.130 --> 00:00:45.049 just establish what you do because it's quite 00:00:45.049 --> 00:00:47.289 broad ranging it's a topic which i'm sure we 00:00:47.289 --> 00:00:48.869 could sit here and talk about for five or six 00:00:48.869 --> 00:00:52.109 days but let's just work out exactly what you 00:00:52.109 --> 00:00:54.710 do and where you're coming at it from. I'm CEO 00:00:54.710 --> 00:00:56.909 of Gazing, Gazing Red2Blue, Gazing Performance 00:00:56.909 --> 00:00:59.409 we're a training company initially we've been 00:00:59.409 --> 00:01:02.810 around for 26 years now and our focus has always 00:01:02.810 --> 00:01:04.870 been enabling individuals teams and organizations 00:01:04.870 --> 00:01:07.090 with the capacity to do well when the pressure 00:01:07.090 --> 00:01:09.700 is on now If you take the business world, for 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:12.659 example, that covers a myriad of areas from customer 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:15.159 sales and service all the way through to management 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.680 and leadership. We also work in education now, 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.180 same thing, where we're trying to enable teachers 00:01:20.180 --> 00:01:22.480 and students to do well when the pressure is 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:25.500 on. And that's now, of course, into sport as 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:29.079 well. So it really is about providing the services, 00:01:29.140 --> 00:01:31.180 including the development, the delivery of training, 00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:33.640 and then the ongoing coaching to support. doing 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:35.680 well when it really matters. And just as a very 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.879 early aside, do you find that when you're in 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:39.959 a business environment or an education environment, 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:42.319 they're tapping you up for stories from sport 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:44.640 and vice versa? So when you're working in sport, 00:01:44.859 --> 00:01:47.239 they're always fascinated in the whole, the 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.079 grass is greener, isn't it? Because their whole 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:52.099 life in sport, they want to hear about the outside 00:01:52.099 --> 00:01:54.980 world. And I'm imagining in business, they're 00:01:54.980 --> 00:01:57.340 always asking you about football or rugby or 00:01:57.340 --> 00:02:00.439 cricket. I mean, it's compellingly appealing 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.700 to... Depends who you're talking to in business. 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:05.780 because it can put people off someone says it's 00:02:05.780 --> 00:02:07.540 just like being in a rugby scrum and you go well 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:10.659 it isn't and we're not so there are some flaws 00:02:10.659 --> 00:02:13.840 but generally as a way of understanding for example 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.319 in sport the sort of jeopardy of performance 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.080 and win -loss consequences in the fishbowl if 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.180 it's talking about elite sport so people do like 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:25.020 some of the transfer of lessons learned and focus 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.300 and skills and processes put in place in different 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:29.300 organisations and they cross over and actually 00:02:29.300 --> 00:02:31.639 I would say it also crosses over from sport into 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.580 business or from business into sport now as well 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:37.120 because there are elements that you can take 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.139 where you learn from businesses that are well 00:02:39.139 --> 00:02:42.060 led perform well do really well when it matters 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:44.539 that could transfer into how sporting organizations 00:02:44.539 --> 00:02:46.360 are run yeah because people are always intrigued 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.240 with worlds that aren't their own aren't they 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:51.300 until you end up getting dragged into conversations 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.860 if you're working in a cricket a county cricket 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:56.080 setup they always want to know about a business 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:58.860 world or a Formula One world or whatever it might 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:01.180 be so and that is a joy of it really I mean I 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:03.240 suppose and having spoken to you a little bit 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:05.400 about your own background that it's the thing 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.199 that binds all sports together isn't it really 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:10.879 that the mental side of it each sport has got 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:13.659 their own technical tactical physical requirements 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:17.199 and nuances but the The psychology, the mindset 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.659 stuff covers all of them, doesn't it? Completely. 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:22.259 And actually, I would say more than that. If 00:03:22.259 --> 00:03:25.240 you start with humans, and we do, so it's human 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.479 first, athlete second, or coach second, or business 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.539 leader second. The notion of human first means 00:03:31.539 --> 00:03:34.159 that it runs across all areas because it populates 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.360 businesses, schools, sporting organisations, 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.259 it all extends from community to elite. And then, 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:41.879 of course, into the military and into the blue 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:43.900 light services. You've got human beings. We are 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:46.740 all entirely capable of doing well when it matters, 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:48.319 under pressure, if we've got the right resources. 00:03:48.620 --> 00:03:51.080 the right mindset, but equally we're as vulnerable 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.819 as the next person. And that's why it's so compelling 00:03:53.819 --> 00:03:55.379 to get across the board like that. And is that 00:03:55.379 --> 00:03:58.120 just sort of top end? Because clearly if you're 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.960 working at the elite level, whenever I hear football 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.139 managers say, oh, it's about the individuals, 00:04:03.500 --> 00:04:05.580 they need to be quality individuals first and 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:07.840 then football the second. You hear that from 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.400 managers all the time. And yes, I get that in 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.039 a professional changing room where you're there 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:16.879 24 -7 but if you're down at Twickenham Cricket 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.839 Club with the under -8s I suppose it's a bit 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:22.399 more subtle isn't it but the same thing holds 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:25.589 true. It completely does. And if you take under 00:04:25.589 --> 00:04:27.829 -8s as an example, as you just said, so if you 00:04:27.829 --> 00:04:29.610 talk to them about three things, which is often 00:04:29.610 --> 00:04:31.509 where we start a conversation with a group or 00:04:31.509 --> 00:04:33.589 a team or an individual, you say, look, we're 00:04:33.589 --> 00:04:35.769 just here today to talk a little bit about performance. 00:04:36.029 --> 00:04:37.889 And you say to some under -8s, what does that 00:04:37.889 --> 00:04:40.529 mean? They go, well, winning or losing. And then 00:04:40.529 --> 00:04:43.149 they go, OK, we'll get that. Now, to win or avoid 00:04:43.149 --> 00:04:44.790 losing, you ought to do well with your performance. 00:04:44.829 --> 00:04:47.209 So then you talk to them about pressure. Is there 00:04:47.209 --> 00:04:49.129 any pressure? And they go, oh, yeah, from mum 00:04:49.129 --> 00:04:51.370 or dad or the coach. And then they go, well, 00:04:51.470 --> 00:04:53.620 we're going to talk a little bit about mindset 00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:55.740 anyone ever reflected on what goes on in there 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:59.139 so they'll go yes so the idea is easy at whatever 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:01.439 level you happen to be at someone asked me yesterday 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:03.620 said oh you must be difficult to talk to 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:05.660 people who where there's no pressure in the jobs 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:08.790 they do and I said well take a barista In Starbucks 00:05:08.790 --> 00:05:10.670 on a Monday morning on Oxford Street. It's a 00:05:10.670 --> 00:05:12.470 different sort of pressure, but it's big pressure, 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:14.829 isn't it? Completely. And therefore, once you 00:05:14.829 --> 00:05:17.329 go with humans, the question is, what's the nature 00:05:17.329 --> 00:05:20.009 of the job that you do? The talent, the capability, 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:22.750 the expectations around what you do? Where does 00:05:22.750 --> 00:05:25.129 the pressure come from? And then how resourced 00:05:25.129 --> 00:05:26.850 are you? How ready are you to deal with that 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:28.949 pressure and ensure that you do well in the moments 00:05:28.949 --> 00:05:30.670 that matter? And actually staying with the under 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:32.550 -8s theme. I remember, I'm sure you did, because 00:05:32.550 --> 00:05:34.509 you played decent sport when you were a youngster. 00:05:34.949 --> 00:05:37.149 I remember feeling physically sick before I went 00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:39.410 into... bat as an eight -year -old and actually 00:05:39.410 --> 00:05:42.449 you haven't got the emotional mechanisms in place 00:05:42.449 --> 00:05:45.310 at that stage so in some ways although you immediately 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:47.529 think of the top level when we're talking about 00:05:47.529 --> 00:05:50.490 psychology it's possibly even more relevant for 00:05:50.490 --> 00:05:53.389 the youngsters. Yeah I couldn't agree more in 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:56.029 fact I think if someone said to me where do you 00:05:56.029 --> 00:05:59.149 start I think waiting till they get to the pinnacle 00:05:59.149 --> 00:06:01.350 whatever the pinnacle is in whichever sport happens 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:04.670 to be in is arguably not too late. but it's later 00:06:04.670 --> 00:06:06.889 than it should be. And so when do you start? 00:06:07.050 --> 00:06:08.750 Well, once you've had the conversation I've just 00:06:08.750 --> 00:06:11.230 said with eight, nine, ten, that's the time to 00:06:11.230 --> 00:06:13.490 start. And we talked a little bit about Erica 00:06:13.490 --> 00:06:15.269 Parkinson, who's the young footballer who's just 00:06:15.269 --> 00:06:17.250 been called into the Lionesses at 17 and a half, 00:06:17.269 --> 00:06:20.389 18. We started work together at 12. She was 12 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:23.129 years old and she already knew about performance. 00:06:23.250 --> 00:06:24.569 She already knew about pressure. She already 00:06:24.569 --> 00:06:27.050 knew that sickness feeling when you make a mistake 00:06:27.050 --> 00:06:29.209 or when you're preparing for a big game, it might 00:06:29.209 --> 00:06:32.689 be a cup final or something. And so she embraced 00:06:32.689 --> 00:06:36.029 the idea of working on her mindset with the naivety 00:06:36.029 --> 00:06:37.870 that comes when you haven't worked it all out 00:06:37.870 --> 00:06:40.529 and think you've got all the answers. So let's 00:06:40.529 --> 00:06:42.449 take Erica, or any young, so it doesn't need 00:06:42.449 --> 00:06:45.519 to be such a high -profile performer. With that 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:48.240 young athlete, do you incorporate it into the 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.019 rest of their training or are you doing standalone 00:06:51.019 --> 00:06:54.259 seminars in a classroom or is it the informal 00:06:54.259 --> 00:06:57.959 conversations over a coffee or how is the best 00:06:57.959 --> 00:06:59.720 approach, do you think, when you're working with 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:01.620 youngsters to try and make them, and ultimately 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:04.459 it's mentally tougher, isn't it, I suppose? Do 00:07:04.459 --> 00:07:08.399 you know the pathway to doing that? Without creating 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:10.779 a barrier, which is one of the risks with the 00:07:10.779 --> 00:07:13.220 way information around mindset can be delivered, 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.660 is our perspective. And it doesn't mean we're 00:07:15.660 --> 00:07:17.620 right, but our perspective is that mindset is 00:07:17.620 --> 00:07:20.579 a skill to develop rather than a problem to fix. 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:24.379 I have a feeling it still remains in most people's 00:07:24.379 --> 00:07:26.519 minds in football as a problem that needs fixing. 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:29.579 And I suspect if that's the approach you take 00:07:29.579 --> 00:07:32.399 with young people. nobody really wants to necessarily 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.259 acknowledge that they have a problem that needs 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:36.540 fixing from a mindset perspective. Unless, of 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:38.699 course, they do, in which case, like everybody, 00:07:38.939 --> 00:07:40.399 we should get access to mental health support. 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:42.579 But when it comes to mindset and that feeling 00:07:42.579 --> 00:07:44.519 you described about going into bat when you're 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:46.560 eight or nine years old and maybe in an elder 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.139 team or something like that, that's a skill in 00:07:49.139 --> 00:07:51.079 our view. And therefore, once it's positioned 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:53.079 as a skill, whether it's over a cup of coffee 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:54.600 initially, or probably wouldn't be a coffee with 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.500 an 11 -year -old, but having a, you know, sit 00:07:56.500 --> 00:07:58.379 down and talk about it. An orange squash. An 00:07:58.379 --> 00:08:01.449 orange squash, exactly. And so you start that 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:02.970 notion and you go, well, let's just talk about 00:08:02.970 --> 00:08:05.689 mindset. And then you present it as a skill and 00:08:05.689 --> 00:08:08.029 immediately accessible because they can understand 00:08:08.029 --> 00:08:10.449 it like most people understand skills. And then 00:08:10.449 --> 00:08:12.509 they go, OK, well, how do I do that? And the 00:08:12.509 --> 00:08:14.990 simplicity and the way that we describe it makes 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:17.370 it accessible immediately. And then you just 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:19.170 talk to them about the different scenarios and 00:08:19.170 --> 00:08:21.050 how they use it in those scenarios. So you're 00:08:21.050 --> 00:08:23.329 being preemptive rather than reactive. Is that 00:08:23.329 --> 00:08:26.589 a summary? So in the same way as you teach players 00:08:26.589 --> 00:08:28.389 to hit a cover drive, you get your head over 00:08:28.389 --> 00:08:30.980 the ball. You're building that in as part of 00:08:30.980 --> 00:08:33.419 the kit they've got. The beauty of this, and 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:37.240 we will get there with football. You can probably 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.799 remember when the idea of the GPS trackers was 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.120 first introduced in football, and I bet you if 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:43.620 you spoke to some of the footballers who'd been 00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:45.220 around for a while, said, we're going to put 00:08:45.220 --> 00:08:47.120 a little mechanism on your back and it's going 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.019 to track everywhere you run, they would have 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:52.379 probably given you a fairly short response. Nowadays, 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.440 you can't move on a training field without having 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.529 a tracker. mindset and mentality will get to 00:08:57.529 --> 00:08:59.710 that point eventually but it needs more approaches 00:08:59.710 --> 00:09:02.830 like ours that reduce the impact the feeling 00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:05.429 that it's a problem needs fixing without dismissing 00:09:05.429 --> 00:09:07.730 the role that sports psychs and psychologists 00:09:07.730 --> 00:09:10.570 and the therapy approach to mentality is needed 00:09:10.570 --> 00:09:12.950 when it's needed but actually the idea of integrating 00:09:12.950 --> 00:09:15.429 it into the work the coaches do and so they start 00:09:15.429 --> 00:09:19.389 to build into the preparation for the teams and 00:09:19.389 --> 00:09:21.789 the individuals. The idea of pressure, where 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:24.009 does it come from? Are you ready for that pressure? 00:09:24.110 --> 00:09:26.649 So getting ready to be ready for the moment of 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:30.529 the match, the tournament, the season. You described 00:09:30.529 --> 00:09:32.370 it as a barrier, I think, earlier on, but there 00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:34.389 is a bit of a taboo around the whole subject 00:09:34.389 --> 00:09:36.370 still, isn't there? I mean, it's sad, but when 00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:39.029 I do interviews with football managers or footballers, 00:09:39.049 --> 00:09:41.409 if I go anywhere near the mental side of the 00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:43.850 game, you can see them physically recoiling. 00:09:43.850 --> 00:09:47.090 They close down. If I talk about their speed 00:09:47.090 --> 00:09:49.990 carrying the ball or their ability to jump and 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:52.029 head it, they're fine. They'll talk all day about 00:09:52.029 --> 00:09:53.730 that, or playing five across the back rather 00:09:53.730 --> 00:09:56.070 than four. No problem, they'll open that. As 00:09:56.070 --> 00:09:57.570 soon as you start mentioning the mental side 00:09:57.570 --> 00:10:00.399 of it, it's not them. It's just they're worried 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.600 about the perception of it. So there is still 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:04.600 a bit of a taboo, isn't there? Yeah, I suspect 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:08.019 completely. And yet the irony is one of the best 00:10:08.019 --> 00:10:10.860 managers in the world in Guardiola, there's video 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:12.820 clips around saying it's the top three inches. 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.450 And so they are very quick to say it is. but 00:10:16.450 --> 00:10:19.269 they are much less quick to embrace it and understand 00:10:19.269 --> 00:10:21.190 it enough so that they can integrate it into 00:10:21.190 --> 00:10:23.009 the training. That's not a criticism of anyone 00:10:23.009 --> 00:10:24.549 individually. I think it's just an observation 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:26.889 of the culture of football. And by the way, it's 00:10:26.889 --> 00:10:29.409 an observation, a little bit of coaches in sport. 00:10:29.549 --> 00:10:32.090 The more that we can enable coaches to appreciate 00:10:32.090 --> 00:10:35.110 mentality in an accessible, practical way to 00:10:35.110 --> 00:10:37.149 integrate it into the training. And then when 00:10:37.149 --> 00:10:40.009 you have... an organization people like us who 00:10:40.009 --> 00:10:42.610 can come and provide the the additional layer 00:10:42.610 --> 00:10:45.330 of of expertise if you want to call it that around 00:10:45.330 --> 00:10:47.950 mindset so you can much like going on the putting 00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:49.970 green on the golf you go we're going to talk 00:10:49.970 --> 00:10:51.590 about playing the game today and it's got all 00:10:51.590 --> 00:10:55.090 aspects from driving to second shot to chipping 00:10:55.090 --> 00:10:57.230 off the green to putting on the green but then 00:10:57.230 --> 00:10:59.440 sometimes you take the putting and you go We're 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:02.379 going to work on that today and you really dig 00:11:02.379 --> 00:11:04.100 into what that means. That's like the diamond 00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:05.980 that you talked about earlier on. Yeah. So that's 00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:09.100 a specialist element. But there is a, whenever 00:11:09.100 --> 00:11:11.179 I talk to coaches and I always say, are you a 00:11:11.179 --> 00:11:12.519 psychologist? Are you a sports psychologist? 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.899 They go, no, no, no. But every coach is to some 00:11:16.899 --> 00:11:19.240 degree a psychologist, whether they like it or 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.700 not. Because with all your interactions, you're 00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:25.600 going to make some sort of... mental impact on 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.039 that player, aren't you? So there's no hiding 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:29.919 away from it for every coach. They need to have 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.960 this. skill set to it so I totally get there's 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.659 a souped up specialist role but for generic coaches 00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:39.220 they've got to be across this for me that's the 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:41.620 opportunity enable the coaches and the people 00:11:41.620 --> 00:11:44.019 around the teams or around the individuals with 00:11:44.019 --> 00:11:46.600 this notion of mindset we're working with one 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.620 of the very well -known drivers abby pulling 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:51.059 she's on the path of becoming one of the first 00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:54.039 drivers who's a woman and she has a team of people 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.440 around her and wherever possible her coach the 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.820 S&C we've made sure that they understand the 00:11:58.820 --> 00:12:01.820 language and the concept of Red2Blue the framework 00:12:01.820 --> 00:12:05.340 such that it can be referenced in some of the 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:07.679 preparation and of course in some of the debriefs 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:10.059 and actually I think football coach they know 00:12:10.059 --> 00:12:12.019 it because they talk about it and if you ask 00:12:12.019 --> 00:12:14.000 what do you do they sort of imply what you just 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:15.960 said yeah well we're always talking about mindset 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:19.299 but are they deliberately extracting it and putting 00:12:19.299 --> 00:12:21.909 attention on it so that it's actually got its 00:12:21.909 --> 00:12:25.389 own flow and its own progress. Dropped in with 00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:27.809 every session they do and every drill they do 00:12:27.809 --> 00:12:30.029 and in every match day, they've got to be aware 00:12:30.029 --> 00:12:33.190 of that. And I'm sure a lot are. And you keep 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:35.809 mentioning this word mindset. So I'm thinking 00:12:35.809 --> 00:12:39.669 Carol Dweck and growth mindset and fixed mindset. 00:12:39.970 --> 00:12:41.730 There's a lot more to it than that, I'm sure. 00:12:41.789 --> 00:12:44.690 But my fairly shallow understanding of it, when 00:12:44.690 --> 00:12:47.049 you use the word mindset, are you talking about 00:12:47.049 --> 00:12:50.269 emotions or mental toughness or what are we talking 00:12:50.269 --> 00:12:52.580 about? Well first of all there's science and 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:54.899 neurology and the academic component of it quite 00:12:54.899 --> 00:12:56.679 rightly because there's quite a lot that can 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.679 go on in one's head and the more we understand 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:00.059 it the better off we're going to be and they 00:13:00.059 --> 00:13:01.600 say we're just scratching the surface of that. 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:03.980 I'm not a psychologist, we're not, our organisation 00:13:03.980 --> 00:13:07.580 isn't but actually when we started our founding 00:13:07.580 --> 00:13:11.559 partner with me Dr Kerry Evans came to our development 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.059 process with a really deep, good understanding 00:13:14.059 --> 00:13:16.740 of cognitive psychology, mentality and everything 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:19.679 that goes on in there. And, for example, the 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:22.139 Carol Dweck concept of growth mindset versus 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:24.179 fixed is really compelling. I mean, everyone 00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:26.639 goes, oh, yeah, I want a growth mindset. I don't 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:28.879 really want to be fixed. But they become outcomes. 00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:31.740 And really the next question should be, well, 00:13:31.779 --> 00:13:33.700 how do you go about doing that? How do you create? 00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:36.340 with an individual or a group or a whole organisation, 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:39.059 this notion of a growth mindset. What do they 00:13:39.059 --> 00:13:41.679 do? How do you enable them with the mental skills, 00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:44.200 in our word, to be able to do that? So we like 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.740 growth mindset, but it's how you get there that 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.679 fascinates you. Is that fair? I think it's the 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:53.279 acknowledgement, the fluidity of your mentality 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.840 is really what we need to come to terms with. 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:59.440 And the idea that rather than it being fixed... 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.759 as either someone is mentally strong or not or 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.379 someone has great mental skills or they don't. 00:14:05.379 --> 00:14:07.840 The idea that it's a skill that you can develop 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.259 and that we are as vulnerable to the things that 00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:13.080 we can't control as we are capable of building 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.159 the capacity, the resilience to recognise them, 00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:17.840 deal with them and move on. That's interesting 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:19.820 because that almost takes us to nature versus 00:14:19.820 --> 00:14:22.960 nurture, doesn't it? And people get pigeonholed 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.379 as to being a specific character and are they 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:28.000 mentally weak? In cricket you hear that all the 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.259 time about that. particularly say are they just 00:14:30.259 --> 00:14:32.899 not mentally tough enough or they're not resilient 00:14:32.899 --> 00:14:36.340 enough and what you're saying there is well they 00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:38.779 might not be but we can work on that and we can 00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:41.240 develop that and we can make them into a beast 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.659 that is different to where they are at the moment 00:14:43.659 --> 00:14:45.620 you can develop that side of them in the same 00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:48.080 way as you can develop their their strength I 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.200 think it's lazy coaching I do I just think it's 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.299 lazy I think that actually if we acknowledge 00:14:53.179 --> 00:14:55.220 that physicality is a thing, of course we're 00:14:55.220 --> 00:14:56.940 going to work on the physical skills that matter 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:58.899 for whatever the sport is or whatever the activity 00:14:58.899 --> 00:15:00.720 is that you're involved in. I think if there's 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.360 technical elements to it, you know yourself, 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.279 you work hard on the technical aspects and as 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.580 the level goes up, which is exactly what happens 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:09.840 as athletes go through the pathway, the level 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.860 increases, the level of skill expected increases. 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.100 Same thing with tactical awareness and understanding 00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:17.000 the decisions you make and the nature of the 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.779 pressure on them. Well, the same thing's true 00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:21.259 of your mentality. So what our job is to give 00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:23.450 people just a simple framework. And I think that 00:15:23.450 --> 00:15:27.149 probably the overwhelmingly exciting thing for 00:15:27.149 --> 00:15:28.750 a lot of people who learn more about it is that 00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:31.350 they own their mindset. The role of the coach 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:33.570 and the organisation is to create a framework 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:36.049 and a language and the opportunity to learn more 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:38.789 and practice it. But they own the mindset. You 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:40.950 own your response to the situations that you 00:15:40.950 --> 00:15:43.730 experience. Yeah, which is really good to grasp, 00:15:43.889 --> 00:15:46.529 isn't it? And something that fascinates me, this 00:15:46.529 --> 00:15:48.690 is a bit of a random tangent, by the way, is... 00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:51.409 how important your formative years are and your 00:15:51.409 --> 00:15:54.669 experience as a youngster in setting you up to 00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:57.190 be able to perform at an elite level. So traditionally, 00:15:57.529 --> 00:16:00.570 there's the notion that people who are brought 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:03.909 up in very cosy, comfortable environments, they 00:16:03.909 --> 00:16:05.649 don't have to really fight for very much and 00:16:05.649 --> 00:16:07.649 it all comes fairly easily and naturally to them, 00:16:07.730 --> 00:16:10.129 maybe won't be as well equipped when they reach 00:16:10.129 --> 00:16:12.990 the... top level and they're really tested and 00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:15.169 challenged and they perhaps fail and they don't 00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:17.350 know how to respond to that as opposed to somebody 00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:20.090 who's had to rough it a bit and has had a tougher 00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:22.750 upbringing I don't know if you in your experience 00:16:22.750 --> 00:16:24.929 of working with lots of elite performers across 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:28.129 different fields you you can see that and you 00:16:28.129 --> 00:16:30.129 perhaps you're starting in a different place 00:16:30.129 --> 00:16:32.509 depending on their background I I think that's 00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:34.590 a I mean that's why the nature nurture conversation 00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:37.440 is kind of kind of current and prevalent is that 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.700 we are a product of our upbringing, we're a product 00:16:39.700 --> 00:16:42.740 of our experiences and therefore what has formed 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:46.460 our capacity to respond to situations, to cope 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:48.500 with pressure, to deal with some of the discomfort 00:16:48.500 --> 00:16:51.039 is what we've experienced to that point. So I 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.379 think that's true and it would be fair to say 00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:56.679 that as people experience more and more discomfort, 00:16:56.940 --> 00:16:58.980 more and more disappointment, more and more sadness, 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:02.220 it probably does increase their capacity just 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:03.799 because they realise at some point you're going 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:05.500 to come across it and then you... have to work 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:08.279 out a way to move past it move through it move 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.019 on and that's not suggesting that coaches should 00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:14.519 somehow create trauma no but but there is a commonality 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.039 I think I might say you'll know more than this 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.369 than me of course but the kids who have had trauma 00:17:19.369 --> 00:17:22.109 or but bereavement actually is an example I think 00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:24.950 isn't it you say if you're from a family where 00:17:24.950 --> 00:17:27.289 there's been a significant bereavement in your 00:17:27.289 --> 00:17:29.349 life you can see there's some sort of correlation 00:17:29.349 --> 00:17:31.970 between how far they they go on to become an 00:17:31.970 --> 00:17:34.210 elite performer yeah you're right and and actually 00:17:34.210 --> 00:17:36.630 it's the recognition of the discomfort and what 00:17:36.630 --> 00:17:39.089 you learn from it and how quickly you're able 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:41.190 to reset and so one of the there's a few myths 00:17:41.190 --> 00:17:44.319 around largely populated by various media, social 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.180 media and things like that nowadays. It's always 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:48.859 the media's fault. Perfectly happy to blame you. 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.819 But the idea that people should find a way to 00:17:52.819 --> 00:17:54.980 going through their life without discomfort or 00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:57.460 without the disappointment that comes with sometimes 00:17:57.460 --> 00:18:01.000 the pressure being too much is just flawed. It's 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:04.210 a myth. life involves disappointment involves 00:18:04.210 --> 00:18:06.630 upset and actually it's one of the great teachers 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:09.769 because if you take sport as an example or exams 00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:12.390 or things that you care about you are going to 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:14.390 come across times when you don't quite get what 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:16.799 you wanted or the situation is not what quite 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.599 what you experienced. And that is going to generate 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.299 a discomfort, a feeling of sadness or anger or 00:18:22.299 --> 00:18:24.420 upset, whatever it might be. And in the end, 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:26.720 you have to work out, which is what we do, we 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.000 have to move on. That's why bereavement is not 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.240 a bad example, because in the end, the sadness 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.420 that goes with it is perfectly human. But in 00:18:34.420 --> 00:18:37.859 the end, we work out a pathway back to our lives 00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:40.700 and the way we need to carry that up. Well, that 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:43.240 in isolation, and I'm not suggesting that losing 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:46.380 your wicket or dropping a catch is. the same 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:49.240 as bereavement that would be ridiculous but actually 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.319 the disappointment that comes and the natural 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.759 human response the feelings associated with that 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.000 are human rather than fight those feelings or 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.119 somehow suggest that they shouldn't exist or 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.700 go of course they happen it's perfectly human 00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:04.579 you accept them you recognize them you accept 00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:06.599 them and the next step is then to choose what 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.240 you do next and that's the skill yeah I suppose 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.039 the other element is a sense of perspective as 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.619 well so for some people who get too consumed 00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:17.160 in whatever sport it might be, if you have had 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:18.940 something far more significant go on in your 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:21.339 life, you're more capable of keeping things in 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:24.140 perspective, which is a sort of byproduct. So 00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:26.549 let's talk about opening bowlers. I mean, you've 00:19:26.549 --> 00:19:28.130 probably come across a few opening bowlers who 00:19:28.130 --> 00:19:30.329 get quite upset when, you know, someone shells 00:19:30.329 --> 00:19:32.609 a catch in the slips. Or an LBW decision turned 00:19:32.609 --> 00:19:34.730 down. Well, LBW doesn't go their way. You can 00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:37.829 see a natural, instinctive, emotionally heated 00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:40.390 response in that moment. And what we would say 00:19:40.390 --> 00:19:42.470 with the coaching we provide is, of course, that 00:19:42.470 --> 00:19:46.529 is a normal human response. The question they 00:19:46.529 --> 00:19:49.150 have to face, and their captain and the player 00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:51.670 leaders have to face, is at what point does that 00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:54.609 emotional response become unhelpful? And it means 00:19:54.609 --> 00:19:57.220 unhelpful today. individual in terms of either 00:19:57.220 --> 00:19:59.279 the next ball or the next over or the next spell 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.980 or for the rest of the team in terms of their 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:04.460 performance and how it goes so that that's the 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.680 question that you face and that's the question 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:08.480 that you look to build on with the coach and 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.329 the team to build that capacity to Not remove 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:14.289 the disappointment because the disappointment 00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:17.029 comes as an emotional connection to what you're 00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:19.609 doing, which is why we do it with intensity. 00:20:19.769 --> 00:20:22.390 Because you care. Because you care. It's just 00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:23.890 that when it doesn't go the way you want it, 00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:26.210 that human response is normal. It's just that 00:20:26.210 --> 00:20:29.380 you get to choose how long it lasts. So ability 00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:31.500 to manage your emotions, I suppose, and that's 00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:33.640 what we're trying to help players with. And it 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.359 perfectly leads me on to mental toughness, which 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.319 is something we hear bandied around a lot as 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.339 an expression, but there are a lot of, in cricket, 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:43.500 we've, I think, got it down to seven components 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:46.339 of mental toughness. That might be beyond cricket, 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.660 I don't know, but I've only known it through 00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:50.759 a cricket environment. So things like resilience 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.519 and inner belief, you know, real proper self 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:54.940 -belief in what you're doing and the ability 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:59.289 to concentrate and focus and fight. that so many 00:20:59.289 --> 00:21:02.230 elements to mental toughness and what you've 00:21:02.230 --> 00:21:04.609 just outlined there is basically a key component 00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:06.490 of it isn't it when when the chips are down you 00:21:06.490 --> 00:21:09.250 can still come back yep our way of saying it 00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:10.950 is the first acknowledgement I'll go back to 00:21:10.950 --> 00:21:12.730 what I said is that our view is it's as a skill 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:15.390 because once people are okay with mentality being 00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:18.049 a skill to develop then all of the doors are 00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:20.509 opened into preparing yourself for these moments 00:21:20.509 --> 00:21:22.890 that are going to come in whatever pursuit it 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:24.589 is you're doing. We've worked with a mountain 00:21:24.589 --> 00:21:27.410 climber, for example, and the pursuit of climbing 00:21:27.410 --> 00:21:30.009 high mountains, she broke several records. She's 00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:32.009 done the top 14 mountains, starting with Everest 00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:34.549 when she was 19. She's from Teddington, with 00:21:34.549 --> 00:21:37.210 not many mountains in Teddington, but Adriana 00:21:37.210 --> 00:21:39.670 Brownlee. And she knew in the preparing that 00:21:39.670 --> 00:21:41.410 she was, that she was going to come across those 00:21:41.410 --> 00:21:44.380 disappointments at times. Because conditions 00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:47.039 change, things happen outside your control. And 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.720 the resilience comes, first of all, to prepare 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:51.579 yourself for the discomfort that you know is 00:21:51.579 --> 00:21:53.759 coming. And also sometimes the disappointment 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.279 when you're not able to carry on with what you 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.660 do. And that skill is both developable, it's 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:03.779 contextual. The variability of our capacity to 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:05.960 cope is a little bit to do with our experiences 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.440 that we've had over time, but also the preparation 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.319 that we have gone through. Whilst you're on mountain 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.039 climbers, I think so courage is a key thing we 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.200 talk about. And I'm not necessarily talking about 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.140 the physical courage of facing a 90 mile an hour 00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:22.500 bowler, although that is clearly an element 00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:24.819 of courage. But I'm thinking a lot about bravery 00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:27.519 to run up and reproduce what you've practiced 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.740 in training in front of 60 ,000 people in a T20 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:34.700 World Cup final. Is that sort of a different 00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:38.809 mental courage? is so sought after amongst players. 00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:42.529 And again, that takes a lot of training, doesn't 00:22:42.529 --> 00:22:45.529 it, to get players equipped to cope on that stage. 00:22:45.670 --> 00:22:48.289 So we would say it comes with preparation and 00:22:48.289 --> 00:22:50.970 it comes with a predictable recognition that 00:22:50.970 --> 00:22:53.269 the pressure is going to come at that moment. 00:22:53.369 --> 00:22:55.970 So just with Erica, to use her as an example, 00:22:55.970 --> 00:22:58.309 when we were 12, I said to her, what would you 00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:00.009 like to do? She said, I want to play in the World 00:23:00.009 --> 00:23:02.880 Cup for England. I said, well, that's good. It's 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.940 a good ambition and an aspiration, but it's going 00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:07.660 to take some work. And so from a mindset perspective, 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:09.660 I'm not a technical coach when it comes to football. 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.869 If you have the talent. If you have the opportunity, 00:23:13.009 --> 00:23:14.690 the next bit is the work you put in to develop 00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:17.109 all of those areas to make it possible. But for 00:23:17.109 --> 00:23:19.549 sure, you won't be playing in front of 80 ,000 00:23:19.549 --> 00:23:23.789 people at the age of 12. So at what point does 00:23:23.789 --> 00:23:27.549 the pressure increase and at what point do you 00:23:27.549 --> 00:23:30.789 start to work on your readiness for going out 00:23:30.789 --> 00:23:32.509 in front of those people and the pressure that 00:23:32.509 --> 00:23:34.750 comes with that? That for us is all part of the 00:23:34.750 --> 00:23:37.690 development phase of building mental skills to 00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:39.369 prepare you for the moments that matter. And 00:23:39.369 --> 00:23:41.250 is there a stage you can throw somebody into that? 00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:43.920 Too quickly, do you think? Because you could 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.660 presumably undo a player's mental setup if you 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:51.160 put them into that hostile environment too soon. 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.859 I think the danger is you put people in unprepared. 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:59.680 That's the risk. I mean, there's a 14 -year -old 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:02.529 in... in the IPL. Well, that was exactly who 00:24:02.529 --> 00:24:04.049 I was thinking about whilst we were talking here. 00:24:04.089 --> 00:24:05.910 He's extraordinary, isn't he? He doesn't seem 00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:08.609 too phased, does he? Unphased, yeah. Now, that 00:24:08.609 --> 00:24:10.630 will tell you, and this is what you know this 00:24:10.630 --> 00:24:12.289 because you've already started with the diamond, 00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:15.859 is that performance under pressure. and elite 00:24:15.859 --> 00:24:18.319 sustainable high performance will not only be 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:20.579 about one thing and some people don't like that 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.720 answer but the truth is there's a combination 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.400 of talent the physical preparation the game understanding 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.380 and the mental skills and even then it'll be 00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:31.319 contextual because it'll depend upon where you're 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.740 asked to do so it is a combination of factors 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:36.400 but being mentally ready to be able to take on 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.000 that pressure and be ready for that and deal 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.720 with the disappointments that might well come 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.420 when you face them is part of that journey. As 00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:44.819 coaches supporting them through that inevitable 00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:47.140 experience, because they're all going to fail 00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:48.559 at some point. In fact, cricket's one of those 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.339 sports where you fail more often than you succeed, 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.839 don't you? As a batter, you go out, even if you're 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:56.019 Joe Root, you're not scoring 50 or 100 every 00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:58.900 time, but once in three if you're Joe Root and 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:01.400 you're lucky. And I think jockeys say they... 00:25:01.869 --> 00:25:03.990 Do they fall one every seven in national hunting 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:06.569 racing and then perhaps win one every ten if 00:25:06.569 --> 00:25:09.970 you're Ryan Moore or O'Sheen Murphy? A lot of 00:25:09.970 --> 00:25:12.009 sport is about failure. When you get to the top 00:25:12.009 --> 00:25:14.069 level, it's no different. Yeah, which is why 00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:16.430 the notion that it's all about winning is flawed 00:25:16.430 --> 00:25:19.589 because of course we prepare to win and of course 00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.470 we want to be successful because that's why we 00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:25.100 do what we do. We want to be successful. And 00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:27.700 we remember the moments when we do, but we equally 00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:29.460 remember the moments that we don't. And those 00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:31.079 are the ones that we need to be ready for. So 00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:33.700 when parents introduce me to their young son 00:25:33.700 --> 00:25:35.099 or daughter and they say, I want you to teach 00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:37.819 him or her to be, you know, the next Wimbledon 00:25:37.819 --> 00:25:40.740 or them. Now you go, well, maybe. And I want 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:42.880 you to teach them to win and understand what 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:44.559 it's like. I go, I bet you don't. What you really 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:47.380 need them to know is what it takes to lose. That's 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.140 more important, isn't it? It's how you cope with 00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:51.279 bouncing back from losing. That's really what 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:52.980 we're trying to coach players. Roger Federer 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.059 has it right. And I think in his well -known 00:25:55.059 --> 00:25:58.480 speech now, 54 % of the points he played in the 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.720 major matches he's competed in, he lost. Is that 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.539 right? I love that. And it's a great speech because 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:07.359 that's saying, he's saying students in a university 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.119 in the US. That's what you need to be ready for. 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:12.319 You prepare hard, you do everything you can do 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.500 to be successful in every moment and in everything 00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:16.799 that you do, but you have to know the fact that 00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.119 you will not be. And the question and the mental 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:20.759 resilience, if you want to call it that, the 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.500 challenge that we face from a mindset perspective 00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:25.640 is how quickly we recognise our response, how 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.779 quickly we accept the fact that it's us and not 00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:32.019 VAR or the umpire or the exam or whoever we would 00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:34.400 like to blame outside that, and then how quickly 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.440 we are to choose the next step. And it's that. 00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:39.440 helpful choice that links to the ability to be 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:41.779 resilient I suppose that control the controllables 00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:44.380 which is a pretty ugly old expression that's 00:26:44.380 --> 00:26:46.019 been kicking around for a long time I think it's 00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:48.380 got a lot of pitfalls in that expression all 00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:51.279 weeks but what you've just said there is one 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.079 element that you can control is is how you react 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:56.619 to these situations yeah you're right to raise 00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:58.359 there are flaws there are pitfalls in it and 00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.359 it's it's lazily used again by coaches who say 00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:03.960 yep just and the media and the media they're 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:05.579 controlling the controllables because it's us 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:08.319 because it's a cool saying but actually say to 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.799 them what do you mean by that Just exactly what 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.599 do you mean by that? And what they're trying 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.099 to say is we're going to focus on the things 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:15.940 that we can control and not worry about the stuff 00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:18.220 we can't control. And then say to somebody, right, 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:19.900 when something happens that you really don't 00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:21.599 want to happen, that makes you feel distinctly 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.559 unhappy, sad, angry, what do you do to allow 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:27.980 you to forget about that, which is the coaching, 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:30.240 and only focus on the things you can control? 00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:32.579 And as a human being, it's like saying to somebody, 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:34.819 don't think of pink elephants. Because in your 00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:37.160 head is how you feel about what you can't control. 00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:39.640 And the skill is to be able to recognise it, 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.240 quickly and shift your attention in the moments 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.359 that matter two more then first of all it strikes 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.799 me that coaches who are on duty with teams in 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.599 intense environments so if you're a cricket coach 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:54.740 on a tour and that can be your club under 13s 00:27:55.099 --> 00:27:57.259 on a tour of the Channel Islands or down in Devon 00:27:57.259 --> 00:27:59.759 or wherever it might be, or if you're looking 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:02.599 after an IPL side or an international side, you're 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.720 in contact so much with the players, aren't you? 00:28:05.779 --> 00:28:08.539 Is it fair that you have to be not on your guard, 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:10.279 you've got to be authentic, but you need to be 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:13.759 aware that in every little exchange, you can 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.519 shift a player's mindset with what you say or 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.160 what you do or how you behave. And actually, 00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:22.559 if you've got that... as a coach, then you've 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.819 basically got to live it 24 -7. You can't be 00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:27.440 sort of erratic. You're thinking, right now we're 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:29.640 training, so now we'll do the psychology bit. 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:32.680 And those tours, I don't know how coaches do 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.980 it really, because you're on duty the whole time, 00:28:35.019 --> 00:28:37.160 aren't you? So I'll give you two examples, which 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:39.700 are different ends. So I think it's a lovely 00:28:39.700 --> 00:28:42.150 example. You've got 15... young young people 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:44.329 and they're on a tour and they don't care they 00:28:44.329 --> 00:28:46.549 want to be but by the way perspective will tell 00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:49.190 you that this is not an elite tour with the whole 00:28:49.190 --> 00:28:51.789 world watching this is a group of under 13s or 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:54.230 under 14s or on a tour somewhere they want to 00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:56.069 enjoy what they're doing they want to learn a 00:28:56.069 --> 00:28:57.990 little bit about playing that sport at that level 00:28:57.990 --> 00:28:59.549 in a different place and they want to learn all 00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:02.519 the time and as you do that as a coach you are 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:04.440 going to be impacting the mentality of those 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.200 players individually and collectively all the 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.079 way through it. If you said to me, where would 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.400 we put the attention and the energy in terms 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:13.359 of development of mental skills? I'd say coaches 00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:15.039 will be the ones that you really spend because 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.819 they have that capacity to unhelpfully be detrimental 00:29:18.819 --> 00:29:21.640 in the mental skill, the mentality of the players 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:22.859 that they're with and the young people they're 00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:24.779 with. But equally, they could create the environment 00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:27.099 where it genuinely contributes to the positive 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:28.740 development, the helpful development of those 00:29:28.740 --> 00:29:32.390 mental skills. There's one. Now go all the way 00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:34.970 to the elite level and ask yourself, did the 00:29:34.970 --> 00:29:37.589 coaches responsible, were they ready mentally 00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:41.750 for the experience? And was the work done to 00:29:41.750 --> 00:29:44.470 prepare them for everything that was likely to 00:29:44.470 --> 00:29:48.650 occur and the pressures that were entirely predictable 00:29:48.650 --> 00:29:51.789 and the likely outcomes? You prepare to win, 00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:54.170 but you know that you won't. Were we ready mentally? 00:29:54.549 --> 00:29:56.890 Parents, I suppose, is the other element because 00:29:56.890 --> 00:29:59.630 they can, I've often seen excellent sessions. 00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:02.900 delivered by coaches to younger kids and you 00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:04.519 just know that the parents are going to undo 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:06.440 all the good work in the drive on the way home 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:08.500 by things they say or their attitude towards 00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:10.680 it so that that's another one isn't it that we 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.220 could probably talk about just um you'll do you'll 00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:15.799 deal with that as well because you just know 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:18.599 that and listen parents i've got young my daughters 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:20.980 are 23 and 21 you want them to do well in whatever 00:30:20.980 --> 00:30:23.380 they do of course you do and you want to help 00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:26.359 them do well in all that you do. And so the notion 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:28.400 that you should sometimes take a step backwards, 00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:31.880 just pause for a moment. It is so difficult to 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.539 do. But that's what coaches need you to do. And 00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:36.880 some sports credit, they don't let parents into 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:39.319 the swimming pool or into the gymnastics center 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:40.680 or wherever it might be because they know the 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:43.119 impact they can have. But you can't let... parents 00:30:43.119 --> 00:30:45.039 not watch the football, but you know the impact 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:47.700 they'll have. So the notion that parenting is 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:49.680 well done shouting louder and louder to tell 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.740 your son or daughter to score more is probably 00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:55.720 not the most helpful. Educating the parents as 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.200 much as anything. I agree. I think it's a huge 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.640 opportunity to take this framework that we've 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:02.880 created because we're asked to now in businesses 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.960 and say, could we take this home for our family? 00:31:06.099 --> 00:31:08.279 And we go, absolutely you could because it starts 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.680 human first, family first. employee or business 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.420 leader second and the last thing I was going 00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:14.799 to admit because I think this struck a chord 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.599 with you and we mentioned it a few minutes ago 00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:19.539 was the media's part in this and when you're 00:31:19.539 --> 00:31:22.839 making judgments on players mental setups from 00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.200 afar so I'm guilty of this because half my job 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.599 is doing sports commentary and I'm always casting 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.259 dispersions about footballers or rowers or jockeys 00:31:33.259 --> 00:31:35.660 i'm fully aware that some people will listen 00:31:35.660 --> 00:31:37.940 to this girl what a hypocrite but it's a real 00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.200 danger isn't there that we without even speaking 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.119 to a player you make some sort of comment or 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.359 make a judgment on someone's psychology and really 00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:48.579 and this goes back to one of our fundamental 00:31:48.579 --> 00:31:50.539 coaching points you've got to know the individual 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:53.960 so well how many as a person their life they're 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.380 away from the sport in the sport before you can 00:31:57.380 --> 00:31:59.700 make any valid judgment on someone's psychological 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:03.680 makeup. Yeah, I think you're right to call out 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.720 the media and actually call out coaches and leaders 00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.960 and generally and teachers even probably. We 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:11.259 know that mentality is a thing. It's traditionally 00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:13.000 difficult to measure. We've done a lot of work 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:14.940 in the military. So we worked with the British 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:16.940 Army, with the Gurkhas, and we've also now got 00:32:16.940 --> 00:32:18.700 a contract with Joint Special Operations in the 00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:20.720 US. They're busy at the moment, but same thing. 00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:24.940 understanding the part that mentality plays and 00:32:24.940 --> 00:32:28.700 being able to recognise and ask the question, 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.519 what role did our mindset play in the decision 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:34.279 that was made or the action that was taken, is 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.980 a fair question. And having a simple framework 00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:39.299 to help you do that would be much easier. So 00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:42.839 I think it is okay to raise the question mentally, 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.890 were they prepared? were they ready in the moment 00:32:45.890 --> 00:32:48.210 and what's going to be done to reflect on what 00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:50.950 part that played it just requires a second level 00:32:50.950 --> 00:32:54.450 question to ask about mindset and we've provided 00:32:54.450 --> 00:32:57.269 a simple framework that is used from the top 00:32:57.269 --> 00:32:58.869 of the mountain to the new zealand all blacks 00:32:58.869 --> 00:33:01.309 to the military to blue light services to businesses 00:33:01.309 --> 00:33:03.710 to schools that just says look there is a simple 00:33:03.710 --> 00:33:05.630 way of talking about it did it come from the 00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:08.440 red Was your attention diverted, distracted, 00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:11.059 or was it a decision that was made with clarity 00:33:11.059 --> 00:33:13.700 of thought, a real perspective and an ability 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:15.799 to focus in on the job at hand? Martin, I've 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:17.160 really enjoyed our chat. I said at the start 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:19.480 we could easily talk for five or six days. And 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:21.799 we nearly have. But it's been great. And thank 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.240 you so much for covering such a broad area of 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.240 this. It's been great catching up. Thank you. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.579 And thoroughly enjoyed it. It is a fabulous topic. 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:30.539 It's a current topic nowadays because of the 00:33:30.539 --> 00:33:32.839 mental health challenge that we're facing. So 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:35.220 we shouldn't duck our responsibility as a society 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:37.680 in that area and all the casualties of that. But 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.079 what an unbelievably empowering way to open up 00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:42.960 a conversation about building mental skills and 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.480 giving people the capacity to own not only their 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.299 response when things go well, but also their 00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:48.200 response when they don't.