This is The icoachcricket Podcast. John Abrahams
was captain of Lancashire before working for
many years in different roles at the ECB. He
was a national coach, manager of the under -19s
and has been involved in coach development for
more than 30 years. He was widely regarded as
a clever and skilful captain and his personable
style made him a very popular figure in coaching.
He's been talking to Tim Dellor about the art
of coaching captains. Right, look, the first
thing to do, and I don't want to immediately
age you here, AB, but you look at the face, you
look appalled by the suggestion. But captaincy,
yeah, and coaching captaincy. When you were about
to begin captaincy at Lancashire a few years
back, did you get a lot of help in learning the
skills? Because it's, I think, quite possible,
isn't it, to get to the top level as a player
and actually not really have done much captaincy
before. tutored and coached in the art of captaincy.
Years ago, in the days of black and white television,
that's when you're talking away. You've been
very polite, really, Tim. I'm trying to be polite.
You are, you are. Bless you. No, nothing at all.
Captained a couple of games in the second team,
and that did all right. People, whoever, obviously
recognise that there were one or two attributes
there that might help. When Clive Lloyd... Name
drop. First name drop, Tim. I'm sure of many,
I'm sure. When Clive wasn't available part of
the season, I was interim captain and then did
it well enough to be appointed full -time captain
the following year. But no, nothing at all from
either formally or informally as far as what's
to be expected and how people could help me and
point you in the right direction. None whatsoever.
So let me guess, those attributes that you mentioned
that people might have spotted. I'm thinking
your personality and perhaps your curiosity and
general interest in the game, do you think have
been top of people's list? No, absolutely. It's
not for me to say about personality, but curiosity,
definitely. I wouldn't go so far as to say I
was a student of the game, but I did watch the
game, I did listen to people, I did talk to people.
As an example, when I was first appointed interim
captain, even though I could... I have a room
on my own when we played the away games. I chose
to room with David Lloyd, who had captained Lancashire
First team, and very well too. I mean, he had
attributes, you know, from a tactical point of
view, knowledge of the game. And then it just
gave me the opportunity at the end of a day's
play just to talk about what had happened, how
he thought I had done, anything I could do differently
for whatever reason. And that was probably the
first informal... tutoring or teaching or learning
from me as a newly appointed captain and just
as an aside taking over from clive lloyd i mean
wow that must have been quite scary they didn't
come much bigger than that as legends in the
game he was captain the west indies captain of
Lancashire one of the world's greatest did
that A bit intimidating? It didn't, actually.
I didn't look on it as that. I mean, it was intimidating
enough that you were the captain of a first -class
county, let alone standing in for somebody, as
you quite rightly say, was a legend of the game,
and one of my heroes, literally one of my heroes
within the game. The way he captained was by
example. He was a great role model, and he did
everything right, and he gave his 100 % on the
field. He obviously affected matches for the
County first team. So if we wanted
to win a game, Clive would go in and score the
quick 40 or 50 or score the long 100 if that
was required. So he led in that way by example,
which is something that I couldn't do. I wasn't
Clive Lloyd as a player. It didn't intimidate
me, put it that way, about following in his footsteps.
I had enough to think about being captain of
the County Club. In a previous episode, I spoke
to Lottie Edwards about this. Something that
we could easily skip over and forget to mention
whilst we're chatting now is keeping your own
game in good order when you're captain. So, you
know, you very modestly, it's typically self
-deprecating. You say, well, I couldn't do that.
But, you know, you were probably opening the
batting and you must have been where you were.
I remember, I'm old enough to remember. You've
put in many a valuable performance as captain,
but that is quite a tough demand, isn't it? Where
you could get... Well, we've seen it time and
again. Captains appointed and their own game,
the numbers drop off. No, no, you're absolutely
right. And hopefully one of the messages to all...
future captains, always look after your own game.
Because if you do perform whatever contributions
you do make in a positive way to the team's performance,
it gives you greater credibility. It makes it
easier then for you to stand up at the end of
a day's play and say to people, listen, you know,
we didn't do that quite well enough, batting
or bowling or fielding or whatever. But yeah,
do look after your own game. You said self -deprecatingly.
I mean, there weren't many players as good as
Clive Lloyd or could do what Clive Lloyd did.
But in your own way, your contributions, what
you did, like sticking in, you'd lost three wickets
for 30 runs or whatever and you fought it out
and you got a valuable 40. If you like, that
was the sort of innings, that was the sort of
player that I was. Always, yeah, if you can do,
if you can do, do try and put aside some time.
to make sure that your game is in order. And
you justify your place, really, in the side as
a player. What about the role of coaches helping
captains? Because, again, it's such a crucial
link, isn't it? You've got to get a very tight
link and they've got to be, to some extent, singing
off the same song sheet, but also complimenting
each other. It's quite a difficult... a relationship
at times, I'd guess. What would you want from
a coach and how should coaches make sure their
captains get it as easy as possible? Listen,
and I'll use myself as an example. The time I
was captain of Lancashire First Team, we had
a first team coach and we had a manager who didn't
see eye to eye on occasions. I'll give you an
example. We played down at Birmingham against
Warwickshire and I had a meal with the coach
one evening and he told me or suggested to me,
this is how you should. play the game and this
is in the middle of a three -day game as it was
then and literally the following night in the
same restaurant more or less at the same table
the manager told me that this is what I think
you should do and they were totally the opposite
which puts you in an awkward situation a little
bit and you try and try and speak to both and
explain the situation and try and compromise
but then at the end of the day having listened
to advice from coach as it was then from manager
as it was then ultimately you've got to make
the decisions you know you're out there in the
middle you see the game unfolding and you've
got to make the decisions the point being that
you do need as a coach especially you do need
to support your captain you talk a lot you talk
about tactics you talk about dealing with with
different players but you've also got to give
the captain the leeway of making his or her own
decisions once they're out there in the middle.
And you can easily chat about it afterwards and
they will justify why they've made that decision.
It may not have been the decision that you would
make, but they will say, this is a thought process
that I went through and that's when I came to
that decision. And you've got to accept that
in cricket, which is why it's such a lovely game.
There are situations that arise where you could
make different decisions and that's what happens.
We're not all robots, we're not all automatons.
And all you can ask is that they've actually
gone through the process of thinking about it,
of weighing up the pros and cons and coming to
a decision. And that decision may be right. may
not be your decisions, you may not agree with
it, but ultimately you've got to respect the
process that they've gone through to reach that
decision. And the difficult thing as a coach
when you're reviewing decisions with a captain
is you never know, do you? So, okay, you've got
one view as a coach, I've done something different
as a captain, but it doesn't mean that your view,
if your decision as a coach had been taken, it
would have worked out any better. You'll never
know. Absolutely, no, no, you can't go back and
rewind, can you, and take two. So no, no, you're
absolutely right. And as I said, before all you
all you can ask is if you've helped the captain
in a way and give them some sort of process to
go through thinking about what they're doing
and why they've come to a decision that's all
you can do to help and once once they've made
that decision you've got to support that decision
as the players have to as well following the
captain out there in the middle that's all you
can ask or and or it takes energy doesn't it
as a coach to and time and you've got to build
that in You think about your fielding drills,
don't you? You think about your warm -ups, and
you think about your selections, and you think
about your batting order, and then you do all
your technical work in the winter. And then,
oh, crikey, it's the morning of the first game,
I haven't really spoken to the captain. Well,
it's easy to miss, isn't it? Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
And initially when I started coaching, there
was not a lot of thought, there was not a lot
of action devoted to developing the captain.
It really didn't. When England Under 19 started
playing in an ICC World Cup every two years and
you appointed a different captain effectively
every two years, you had to put some time aside
to develop that captain. Not just for stuff on
the field, because there were also responsibilities
off the field as well. So you had to prepare
the captain that way. And that's when myself,
other people in similar positions started giving
thought to, right, how are we going to help the
captain? How are we going to... give them the
tools, yeah, to operate under a little bit of
pressure. You know, some games were televised.
People saw the England Under 19s in the recent
World Cup were playing in a final against India
under -19s as it was. And you've got to try and
help prepare that player. And you can do stuff
during the winter. You genuinely can do stuff
that will help them. Yeah, and it's interesting
you talk about identifying the captain and working
with them. could easily I think I remember reading
something about Alistair Cook going all the way
through playing obviously very high level cricket
often playing years above as he was in the pathway
and then probably jumped from county second team
to county first team extremely quickly at Essex
I'm imagining and then before he knew it he was
whisked off to the international scene and actually
because you're always playing up there's somebody
else captaining and you can get to suddenly be
appointed as England captain having not really
done the job very much previously. Is that something
that happens? It does happen. Alistair captained
England Under 19s. He was brought in as captain
to replace somebody else who we demoted for various
reasons. And he was absolutely brilliant. And
when I talked before about Clive Lloyd being
a role model, Alistair was exactly that. We went
to Malaysia pre -Christmas to go to Bangladesh
post -Christmas for the World Cup. And we went
on a practice tour because... World Cups tend
to be out of season for England, as you can imagine,
with the only, apart from American Canada coming
in, with the only Northern Hemisphere cricket
-playing countries. And he would do something
at the end of every day's practice that he felt
he needed to. So, for example, he would do some
sprints on his own. He would find a place, he
would do some sprints, running between the wickets.
He would ask somebody to throw deliveries at
him that were... chest high full tosses so he
could play that shot but he found something he
did something every day that he felt would improve
his game as a player and what happened was by
the end of that tour other players were following
his example and doing exactly the same they were
joining him running around the field another
five times before they finished for the day it
was probably one of the best decisions that that
we've made involved with England under 19s to
make him captain of that side and we were i was
going to say we were unlucky we lost the westerners
in the semi -final through no fault of his we
could have and should have won really and probably
gone on to the final but he was a really good
example of somebody who as it happened, belatedly
was appointed captain of the team. Yeah, and
then that must have been a vital experience for
him because I'm guessing that would have been
pretty much the only captaincy experience he
had when they called him in to do the full England
game. Yeah, no, I'm guessing so. As you quite
rightly point out, he shifted fairly quickly
through the gears. Well, what does he do? You
know, you have to, don't you, to get to that
level. Absolutely, and if you've got that special
talent as well and you keep proving yourself
at the next level, you will go through. Essex
under -19s, Essex second team, Essex first team,
and then into the England setup. So what I'm
getting at is, should we be, as well as our indoor
sessions, hitting front -foot drives, tennis
balls, and talking to bowlers about their actions
and their options in a white -ball game and all
this sort of stuff, should we be actually putting
on captaincy sessions for not just the captain,
but maybe five, six, seven? who show any sort
of inclination and interest because it might
be them that ends up having to do the job no
no absolutely great idea and i would suggest
at the younger ages that's absolutely brilliant
so i'll say up to under 15s if you have four
or five six players you who you think could potentially
be captains we developed a system where We appointed
co -captains for the day and gave people that
responsibility. You used fielding drills as an
example before, and that's what they would do.
They would be responsible for the fielding drills,
make sure they were run properly, make sure the
equipment was set out properly, make sure the
equipment was put away. And you got a picture,
you got an idea of how people take on responsibility.
So the co -captains was a great idea, and you
appoint different people on a daily basis. And
we also developed, and this came from... Duncan
Fletcher, he pointed what was called, he called
it the leadership group, which was the buffer
between the players and management, coaching
staff and that. And again, you saw people who
took on the responsibility of representing the
other players when talking to, when reporting
back to management staff. And if you're on a
tour, then the under -19s would go on five, six
weeks tours. That is absolutely crucial. You
know, you would meet every three or four days.
And if there were any concerns that had been
reported to the leadership group, that got back
to the management group. So that was really good.
And again, you know, it gave you an idea of people
who took on responsibility, who enjoyed that
responsibility, and that would contribute to
potentially who could become captain. Yeah, which
is a great way for them to dip their toe in the
water, isn't it? Get a little bit of a feel for
leadership. And it's such a tough job, isn't
it? Because we've already talked about... the
personality side of it, but then the tactical
understanding and to marry those two, you get
the natural leaders and social personalities,
don't you? But the chance of a 14 -year -old
having that and having any sort of tactical nous,
it's really tough, isn't it, with youngsters?
And also then you talked about the leeway, giving
players a leeway, but as a coach, the temptation
to try and... make interventions and direct from
the sidelines and become a football manager.
It's just overwhelming, isn't it? Or a parent.
No, absolutely. With coaching, whether it's technique
or tactical, they will become more aware, they
will learn more quickly, the lessons will stay
longer with them. if they go through that, if
they do it themselves. Absolutely. And come through
the other end. They will have ownership of the
journey and they will remember it longer. And
it may not be the next game. It may be when the
captain in their county second team later on.
Oh yeah, that situation arose then. I did it
this way. We talked about it and it was just
like we're doing another. Absolutely brilliant.
That's what experience is, isn't it? I suppose
if you're directing it, you're experiencing rather
than the captain. They may take those lessons
on board. I'm not saying they won't do it. They
may take those lessons on board, but they will
be better equipped if they experience it and
go through it and come out the other side. The
other thing that we started doing, and you alluded
to it a little bit, nets during the winter, is
to have the captain at the back of a net with
you, watching your bowlers, albeit bowling to
your batters. and talking through what they see
at the other end the strengths and weaknesses
of the batter where you would as a captain suggest
your bowlers to bowl or not to bowl you also
have opportunity to talk to your bowlers as to
for this batter what field would you set Where
would you have your extra fielder? You always
have an extra fielder that you've got to, between
you, you've got to make a decision about. Where
would you have your extra fielder? What line
and length would you bowl to this batter? And
you also then start to get a feeling and understanding
of what your bowlers are trying to do. In a non
-pressure situation, in a fairly relaxed situation,
and with you asking them questions, it makes
it easier then when you do translate it to a
game situation. If you're at mid -off... and
you go again through the same process, you've
done it, you know, you've rehearsed it, you've
practised it, you've been through it. I found
that really useful. You don't interfere too much
in that scenario, you just let the captain do
it, and then if he wants to, if she wants to,
just to come back to you and say, yeah, they
said this, he's trying to do that. I said, oh,
brilliant, that's really good. Bit of a review
at the end, go through the factors, see whether
they've considered everything. And it's such
a difficult job now, and I don't, I'm not, in
any way suggesting it was a stroll in the park
in the 80s when you were playing lots of three
-day county games and a Sunday League 40 -over
game. But I don't know, it just strikes me it
was perhaps a bit more formulaic in those days
and you could make a bit of a statement by doing
something different more easily than now. There's
so much cricket played, different formats, that
actually being different and standout is quite...
difficult isn't it as a captain nowadays yeah
yeah and you know they talk about a lot of top
teams now have different coaches for different
formats of the game they have different captains
for different formats of the game totally understandable
but I think From a young captain's point of view,
and as I said before, every two years there'd
be another 19s World Cup, which was a 50 -over
competition. We didn't ignore other formats of
the game leading up to that. When it became closer
to the tournament itself, we did actually focus
on 50 -over cricket, which made sense, not just
from the captain's point of view, but from the
team's point and the players' point of view as
well. But yeah, in the 80s, we had different
competitions. We had the three-day game. What
was the Gillette Cup? 60 over. We had the Benson
Hedges, which is 55 over. And we also had the
Sunday League, which was 40 over. Albeit all
red ball, all white clothing and that sort. Which
was the one that you won Man of the Match at
Lords? Did I? You did. Yeah, he did. Was it?
Yeah. In the 1980s, Peter May. Peter May, bless
him, who I thought was a really good judge of
a cricketer. He was chairman of the England selectors
at the time. My brothers blessed them. questioned
it because I don't know if you do remember, if
you do look back, he kept selecting, I've nothing
against this bloke, he kept selecting Derek Pringle
as the new Ian Botham. And bless Derek, I mean,
no, there weren't many who came up to Ian Botham's
standards, to be fair. So that was the one fly
in the ointment as far as judgment of a cricketer
was concerned. But it was, it was the Benson
Hedges Final 84. Even though I played 17 years
of county cricket, that's the one thing that
people remember. Yeah, it's nice to remember
something. Yeah, yeah, I suppose so, yeah. They
could have been worse, couldn't they? A lot worse.
A lot worse final. That's good. Lancashire won
it, didn't they? Yeah. God, yes, I do remember
you playing. You were useless, weren't you? You
could have been that. So, yeah, yeah, we did.
And you said before about it being formulaic,
and it honestly was. You know, we identified
the strengths of the team. Best example would
be we were really good at chasing. We batted
down to number 11. So we were really good at
chasing. We were a really good containing bowling
attack. So, you know, we put pressure on the
opposition by restricting the runs and we felt
that whatever the opposition scored, we could
chase it down. But you had to win the toss? Not
always, because opposition sometimes say, oh,
we'll bat first, no, we'll bat first. So, oh,
yeah, thanks very much. But we did have to win
the toss, yeah. You're absolutely right. And
on that day, I did. And Bob Willis, bless him,
the opposition captain, and he tried to con this
young man from Lancashire. having been captain
of England and on the way out, he said, shall
we toss up to see who's going to toss up? And
he said, shall we do best of three? And I won
everyone. So I'm sorry, Bob, you're going to
have to have a bat, mate. But bless him. No,
no, it was a good day. It's nice to be remembered
for something fairly positive. So for people
who don't know the story, basically, you got
man of the match, but you hadn't really done
it with the bat or the ball, but your captaincy
was... Absolutely spot on, wasn't it? And that's
what impressed Peter May. I'm glad you said that,
really. You're right, I got a duck, caught down
the leg side, four deliveries. Mum was really
upset in the crowd, bless her, she came down
to watch the final. Didn't bowl, didn't bowl
at that stage, took a very, very simple catch.
And people will go through this. If you're a
captain, you'll go through this. Every little
decision that you make came off. Do you know
what I mean? Bowling change you make, the bowler
takes a wicket. You move a fielder. A couple
of yards to the right and then there goes the
catch. Absolutely, yeah. They either stop and
save four or they get a catch. And I look back
and it was difficult at the time because everything's
happening around you. You can't take it all in.
So I've watched the highlights on a daily basis.
No, not daily basis. I watched the highlights
a few times after that. And it was good. It was
intense, honestly. There are pictures of how,
you know, frowns on my face, which was... It
was just so deep in thought. Absolutely. Mind
in overdrive. I know, yeah, very, very. And you
don't realise. It's like an exam, I suppose.
I mean, you must come off the pitch exhausted
just from decision -making. Yeah. So that's probably
why I got naughty. Thanks for that, mate. So,
yeah. So, yeah. But anyway, yeah, it was just
one of those days where things went right. And
Peter May, bless him. If you recognise that or
not, I don't know, but he nominated me as player
of the match. At that time, the PA system at
Lord's just went out onto the ground. So you
did it on the second floor balcony or whatever,
where you got the trophy. And he was giving his
speech and you couldn't hear properly because
there was a lot of noise, a lot of drunken Lancastrians
there celebrating the victory and you couldn't
hear. And so I nominate as man of the match.
People sort of looking round, who is it? And
Steve O'Shaughnessy, bless him, pushed me forward.
And I nearly whacked him. I thought, what are
you doing pushing me forward? And he'd heard
that Peter May had nominated me as Man of the
Match for my leadership qualities. So, yeah,
which was... I'll tell you what, I've not given
the medal back, mate. I've still got it. Hang
on to that. It's fantastic. It's still in the
display cabinet. I don't know if it would happen
nowadays, but it's just brilliant. I love that.
And actually, in all seriousness... The transition
from being a captain to being a coach is perhaps
quite a natural one, isn't it? Because you're
a bit more exposed to everything else that's
going on. So I'm sure you know lots of very good
captains who have become really excellent coaches.
Probably an over -representation of that, isn't
it? As opposed to other elements of the game.
Yeah, it's quite obvious. But as a captain, you
have to consider at least 10 other people, possibly
four or five other people who are not. who are
not in the team, who've not been selected. You've
got to consider how they are as people. You've
got to consider how they are as cricketers, how
they're going to fit into the team that you feel
is going to be successful. And then, as you quite
rightly point out, when you're going to be a
coach, that's exactly what you have to do. You're
on the way with the skin, aren't you? And actually,
as a sports person, one of the things I see,
and I cover, obviously, going to football and
horse racing and rowing. Quite a bit of cricket
as well. And one thing that the really top sports
performers have, they have to have an element
of real selfishness. I mean, just totally, compared
to the average human being, I would say they
spend a lot of, a high percentage of time thinking
about themselves and their own game. And that's
almost the reverse of what you want from a coach,
isn't it? You've got to spend your whole life
thinking about other people's performance. And
the captain, you're sort of in a step in that
direction. The strange thing about cricket, it's
still an individual sport within a team context.
So you're absolutely right. There are still some
people who are totally selfish, basically. Brilliant
for it. Yeah, absolutely. And batters probably
more so. If they do well for themselves, they
do well for the team. Unless they score 30 off
100 deliveries when the team want to score a
run-a-ball then. You'll see me back. And me,
you and me both. But no, you do. You do have
to. Going back to Peter May, and Paul Allott
played for England during that period, and as
I said, he was chairman of selectors. Paul came
back and said, one of the things that he did...
was he recognized at least one positive thing
that you did on that cricket field contributing
to your team and he came and talked to you about
that one thing which obviously as a player made
you feel absolutely brilliant yeah so you know
if you're talking about the little small psychological
advantages that you can implement yeah he did
that and i tried and i tried to do that and the
other thing i tried to do a captain and as coach
was to put myself in that player's position.
What does he genuinely want from this? He just
wants to be a part of this team. He wants to
be a part of this team. He enjoys being a part
of this team. He wants to be the kingpin in this
team. He wants to be the batter that scores most
runs in this team. So you recognise that and
you try and accommodate that without being to
the detriment of the other members of the team.
That's the sort of thing that you look at. People
may know his name. Coaches definitely know his
name. It's Adi Birrell. I was lucky enough to
work with Adi for a couple of seasons. Down
at Hampshire until last year. Yeah, until last
year, yeah. South African, successful coach with
Ireland. Absolutely brilliant in the World Cup
that they played in the West Indies. But he was
very similar. He always looked for the positives
and he always looked for something that somebody
had done well. Unlike, and I've just mentioned
this to coaches as a cautionary note, Don't look
for the negatives so you can justify your position,
your existence. Do look for the positives. And
if it can help with the negatives, then absolutely
brilliant. But don't just look for the negatives
just to justify your position as a coach. Yeah,
that's a great key message to finish with. Adam
Holliday did something very similar. I remember
when I talked to him about the Surrey set -up
and the captain, he was always on the lookout
to not necessarily praise the guy who's taken
five-for, but... Get into the ear of the guy who's
run up the hill against the wind at the other
end and got nothing but has been crucial to it.
What did he get given by the Hampshire players
when he left it? Was it an ox? Because he's a
farmer down in South Africa, isn't he? And he
was given some quite serious bit of wildlife
for his farm when he retired from Hampshire.
No, he has a wildlife reserve. Absolutely, yes.
So you can go and see. Lions, tigers, giraffes
and that. It might have been something more exciting
than an ox, but I was amazed the Hampshire players
had clubbed together. Maybe they were wildebeest
or something. If they did, he would have loved
that. That would have been absolutely brilliant
and just right for him. But he enjoyed his time
at Hampshire. And if the Hampshire players...
Gave him that. There's nothing more appropriate
for him. Yeah, well, rather random way to finish.
But it's been great to catch up. These messages
are so relevant still, aren't they? So, you know,
we were talking about cricket in the 80s and
90s a bit. 1980s and 90s, all right. But they
are still absolutely nailed on necessities, aren't
they? Non -negotiables for what goes on now.
So it's been great. Thanks, AB, for sharing your
time and really good to catch up. Tim, listen,
mate, it was a call. out the blue to come and
come and do this i'm so glad that you did i know
it's your third series i know you've had 42 other
people before me at least that's not true 41
then sorry but i do i do appreciate the fact
that that you thought that i could contribute
in some way and it's been really enjoyable you
know it's always just having a conversation about
cricket with somebody who cares as much about
the game as I do. So, yeah, it's been good, mate.
Great to hear from John Abrahams. That's it for
this episode of The icoachcricket Podcast. Thanks
for listening.