WEBVTT 00:00:03.489 --> 00:00:06.190 Not many coaches spend their time working in 00:00:06.190 --> 00:00:09.429 Brazil, Rwanda and Nepal, but that's what Sarah 00:00:09.429 --> 00:00:12.689 Begg does. Sarah was a community coach at Middlesex 00:00:12.689 --> 00:00:15.050 but recently spent her time working for Coaching 00:00:15.050 --> 00:00:17.730 Without Boundaries around the world. Recently, 00:00:17.769 --> 00:00:20.149 she's been studying the impact cricket can have 00:00:20.149 --> 00:00:22.570 on lives and communities in far-flung places 00:00:22.570 --> 00:00:26.030 as part of her PhD. She's been telling Tim Dellor 00:00:26.030 --> 00:00:29.719 what Cricket Changemakers is all about. It's 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:33.179 actually my PhD research ultimately, but it was 00:00:33.179 --> 00:00:36.000 in Nepal and it's working with adolescent girls 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.200 and young women to basically reflect on how do 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:42.109 they want to change their... communities through 00:00:42.109 --> 00:00:45.490 cricket so we actually started off from a place 00:00:45.490 --> 00:00:48.729 of not assuming anything about how those girls 00:00:48.729 --> 00:00:50.969 wanted to use cricket so it comes from before 00:00:50.969 --> 00:00:53.070 that really, my involvement with cricket without 00:00:53.070 --> 00:00:55.549 boundaries which historically used cricket for 00:00:55.549 --> 00:00:58.450 HIV/AIDS education and awareness but has been 00:00:58.450 --> 00:01:00.429 moving towards lots of different topics according 00:01:00.429 --> 00:01:02.789 to the community needs and this is like right 00:01:02.789 --> 00:01:05.129 so how do we really start from the bottom and 00:01:05.129 --> 00:01:09.799 build up from there so we had about 10 teenage 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:13.379 girls in two different districts in Nepal and 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:15.680 we went, right, what are the challenges that 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.780 young girls in your community face? tell us about 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:20.780 them and we use games to facilitate that conversation 00:01:20.780 --> 00:01:22.379 and the big thing that they were talking about 00:01:22.379 --> 00:01:24.859 really was what we would call restrictive gender 00:01:24.859 --> 00:01:27.640 norms which sounds quite grand but actually it's 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:30.500 just I guess the stereotypes and discrimination 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:32.900 that girls face day to day that limit their opportunities 00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:36.180 to do things and it's stuff like the expectation 00:01:36.180 --> 00:01:40.099 that girls are staying at home and doing the 00:01:40.099 --> 00:01:42.060 cooking and cleaning rather than being allowed 00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:45.469 to go out. go to a after-school cricket session 00:01:45.469 --> 00:01:48.790 for example and their ultimate goal that they 00:01:48.790 --> 00:01:51.390 described from that was like we want girls to 00:01:51.390 --> 00:01:54.069 play cricket and the thing we need to change 00:01:54.069 --> 00:01:56.129 for that to happen is to change these restrictive 00:01:56.129 --> 00:02:00.489 gender norms and so they and I went out and spoke 00:02:00.489 --> 00:02:02.769 to lots of other teenagers tried to describe 00:02:02.769 --> 00:02:05.310 those in more detail and understand where do 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:07.390 they come from and then they designed these different 00:02:07.390 --> 00:02:10.490 activities to try and address it and really it 00:02:10.490 --> 00:02:13.610 was thinking this isn't just about changing individuals 00:02:13.610 --> 00:02:16.990 because you can't change a community level belief 00:02:16.990 --> 00:02:19.310 by just saying to a teenage girl oh you need 00:02:19.310 --> 00:02:21.610 to be more empowered because they're operating 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:23.909 in this whole system where people are saying 00:02:23.909 --> 00:02:27.750 cricket isn't for you the idea was that we would 00:02:27.750 --> 00:02:30.219 do stuff that targets the girls themselves and 00:02:30.219 --> 00:02:32.879 builds their confidence and their understanding 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:35.780 of gender norms and stereotypes and discrimination 00:02:35.780 --> 00:02:38.180 where they come from and their rights but then 00:02:38.180 --> 00:02:41.259 also work with teenage boys in their community 00:02:41.259 --> 00:02:43.659 coaches in their community teachers in their 00:02:43.659 --> 00:02:46.479 community engage with parents try and make cricket 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:49.979 more visible in public spaces so the wider community 00:02:49.979 --> 00:02:53.379 became more accepting of girls moving around 00:02:53.379 --> 00:02:55.539 in public space you know even walking to the 00:02:55.539 --> 00:02:58.060 ground was a bone of contention in some of the 00:02:58.060 --> 00:02:59.960 more rural areas that these girls were living 00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:03.139 in yeah we worked on that together they implemented 00:03:03.139 --> 00:03:06.199 those activities over about nine months really 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:10.560 and then evaluated and saw what had changed and 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.060 there was huge uptake in the amount of cricket 00:03:13.060 --> 00:03:15.939 that girls were playing in the area but then 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:19.960 it was also about changes in perceptions of the 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.219 wider community Boys were no longer really teasing 00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:26.740 girls at the ground and becoming much more supportive 00:03:26.740 --> 00:03:29.879 and giving advice to the girls from their school 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:31.740 how to win tournaments and things like that. 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.060 So it was a big piece of work that was really, 00:03:35.099 --> 00:03:37.560 from the bottom up, led by girls about how they 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.060 could make cricket a sport for them in a place 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:44.520 where it had been limited up to that point now 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.000 ahead of our conversation I hadn't read the whole 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:50.300 PhD not your whole thesis yeah but I did read 00:03:50.300 --> 00:03:52.840 a summary and what struck me whilst I was reading 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:55.680 that was if you keep cricket in perspective or 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.680 actually let's broaden it sport in perspective 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.319 it's sort of what sports meant to do isn't it 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:03.599 and it's yes it's entirely appropriate in Nepal 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.879 with women and girls and I completely get that 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:09.759 yeah but actually you could really zone in on 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.979 any community couldn't you it's the purpose of 00:04:12.979 --> 00:04:16.540 sport really is not to be Ben Stokes. It's to 00:04:16.540 --> 00:04:19.079 have your character enhanced and your position 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:22.240 in society, made more meaningful. Yes, exactly. 00:04:22.579 --> 00:04:25.319 And so it struck me that it was potentially quite 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:27.680 a broad piece of work rather than just specifically 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.300 women and girls. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:34.240 the key is like, it's about how can we really 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.800 make sport meaningful in a way that it's not 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:38.759 about the results. And if you think about even 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.240 the history of sport in this country, organised 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:44.759 sport, It's a lot about community building and 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.279 people moving. If you talk about cricket in the 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.019 area that I now live up in Yorkshire, you're 00:04:50.019 --> 00:04:52.519 moving from village to village to go and play 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:55.680 cricket because they're nearby to you. You've 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.579 got a newly new thing that is called the weekend, 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:03.180 but it's not necessarily about winning the Huddersfield 00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:04.540 Cricket League because that's not a thing at 00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:06.279 that time. It's like, how do you build connection 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.379 and community and empower people, I guess, to 00:05:09.379 --> 00:05:12.240 grow and... build something meaningful in their 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.579 lives so I completely agree I think it's not 00:05:15.579 --> 00:05:20.259 just about the the Nepali girls provide a life, 00:05:20.259 --> 00:05:22.759 shine a light on the opportunity I suppose yeah 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.000 exactly it's a great case study isn't it and 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:27.680 Nepal actually on this very day that we sit here 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.860 we had a bit of a fright in the T20 World Cup 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:33.379 so you maybe uh well either you'll be very welcome 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:35.740 back or maybe not so welcome back next time I 00:05:35.740 --> 00:05:38.000 felt a bit of split loyalty there really when 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.519 I was Running a coach education piece today up 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:45.060 in Coventry and like refreshing Cricinfo and 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:46.399 trying to get the results. When you say Split loyalty, 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:48.360 be honest, you were probably thinking come on 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.160 Nepal, weren't you? I think, yeah, in that 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.529 last over and it's the opportunity to... finish 00:05:54.529 --> 00:05:57.170 it in a single blow on the last ball. I was like, 00:05:57.230 --> 00:05:59.810 if this goes over... For the whole nation, it 00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:01.589 would have been an extraordinary moment. An extraordinary 00:06:01.589 --> 00:06:03.750 moment. And if you look at what's happening in 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:05.529 cricket in Nepal at the minute, for example, 00:06:05.709 --> 00:06:08.670 they beat the West Indies for the first time 00:06:08.670 --> 00:06:11.209 a few months ago. It's a country that's going 00:06:11.209 --> 00:06:12.790 through a bit of a weird political transition 00:06:12.790 --> 00:06:15.129 at the moment as well. And so the opportunity 00:06:15.129 --> 00:06:18.069 for cricket to unite a community and a country 00:06:18.069 --> 00:06:21.110 is hugely relevant in places like Nepal. It's 00:06:21.110 --> 00:06:23.509 a women's team keeping up do you think is 00:06:23.509 --> 00:06:25.230 that playing their part because there's a danger 00:06:25.230 --> 00:06:27.490 that yes we've talked about the men's team in 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:30.129 the t20 world cup yeah you've got to have a strong 00:06:30.129 --> 00:06:32.230 women's team nowadays to be considered a proper 00:06:32.230 --> 00:06:34.170 cricket nation yeah and I think that is still 00:06:34.170 --> 00:06:36.970 an interesting one in that There's definitely 00:06:36.970 --> 00:06:39.589 movement in a positive direction in Nepal, but 00:06:39.589 --> 00:06:42.750 for example, during the period of the PhD research 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:45.250 that I did, the Nepal women almost went a whole 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:47.209 year without playing a single international fixture. 00:06:47.569 --> 00:06:50.790 And so there is still a gap in investment and 00:06:50.790 --> 00:06:54.089 in recognition of the importance and value of 00:06:54.089 --> 00:06:58.170 women's cricket. What that means to be a Nepali 00:06:58.170 --> 00:07:01.449 as well, generating pride in the country is a 00:07:01.449 --> 00:07:04.149 huge thing that cricket can offer, which was 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:07.060 again a key part of the work that... we did was 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:08.779 like actually parents feeling proud for your 00:07:08.779 --> 00:07:10.759 daughter is a reason to get them to be involved 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:13.319 in cricket well scale that to a national level 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.839 if you can get people to be proud of the women 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.079 who are playing cricket then maybe they might 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:21.000 let their girls play as well Things aren't perfect 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:23.040 here, by any means, when it comes to women and 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:24.759 girls. I mean, we're really good, obviously, 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:26.980 and it's a whole lot better than when you and 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:30.600 I first met, or ten years ago. It's boomed, hasn't 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.060 it? It's gone in the right direction, but I wouldn't 00:07:33.060 --> 00:07:35.939 say it's perfect yet. So, spending time in Nepal, 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.740 did it make you grateful that we've at least 00:07:38.740 --> 00:07:41.829 progressed things as far as we have? And when 00:07:41.829 --> 00:07:43.269 I say about things not being perfect, when I 00:07:43.269 --> 00:07:45.649 was ordering your diet coke just now, and paying 00:07:45.649 --> 00:07:48.949 for it by the way, we talked about still relatively, 00:07:49.389 --> 00:07:52.149 there's a bit of a dearth of women's coaches, 00:07:52.189 --> 00:07:54.529 for instance, in the game. It's funny because 00:07:54.529 --> 00:07:58.470 it felt in some ways like I was joining myself, 00:07:58.610 --> 00:08:01.589 not quite to the extremes of the limitations 00:08:01.589 --> 00:08:03.629 that girls there face, but it was like stepping 00:08:03.629 --> 00:08:06.149 back in time to that context where there was 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:09.339 so little women and girls cricket around. Yeah, 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:12.939 it also meant that when I came home, I'd do six 00:08:12.939 --> 00:08:14.540 months away and then come back for six months 00:08:14.540 --> 00:08:17.079 for the summer. And I was surrounded by loads 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:19.920 of women's softball cricket in the area that 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.399 I'm living in now, which has gone from four teams 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:25.480 three years ago to 36 teams this coming year. 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.740 I mean, presumably they're numbers that Nepal 00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:29.620 can only dream of. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:31.879 those are numbers that you're not going to get 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.259 to overnight. I mean, this is over the course 00:08:35.259 --> 00:08:37.279 of 10 years. And like you say, like the growth 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:40.350 is... has been substantial but it has been over 00:08:40.350 --> 00:08:42.950 a period of time but it also meant that I was 00:08:42.950 --> 00:08:45.750 able to relate to the experience that these girls 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:47.289 were going through like being the only girls 00:08:47.289 --> 00:08:48.970 who were in the ground because that's where i 00:08:48.970 --> 00:08:50.509 started you know turned up at finchley cricket 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:53.129 club had a great time was really welcomed but 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:56.409 it was me my sister and 60 boys I think there's 00:08:56.409 --> 00:08:58.230 a big solidarity piece actually in women and 00:08:58.230 --> 00:09:00.649 girls cricket which is really nice is that we've 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:03.129 all been on that journey and it's still a very 00:09:03.129 --> 00:09:06.759 live journey of like creating space for ourselves 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.519 in the game and so it means that when you meet 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:11.820 people who are maybe a little earlier on in that 00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:14.299 journey there's a bit of like solidarity and 00:09:14.299 --> 00:09:17.879 how can I help you and how can I share my experiences 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.299 to help you yeah make progress and I think you're 00:09:20.299 --> 00:09:22.940 right the coach head is the last bit of the puzzle 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:25.379 and to an extent I think that's a that's like 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:28.159 a time lag piece if we want people to have the 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.139 opportunity to get into the game and to play 00:09:30.139 --> 00:09:32.240 the game and to learn about the game it's going 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.600 to then take a while for coaches to fall out 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:38.440 the end of that. So maybe in 10 years' time, 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.679 if we sit down together at some point, we won't 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.740 be reflecting on, or we've still got a quarter 00:09:45.740 --> 00:09:49.159 of our advanced coaches are women at the minute. 00:09:49.299 --> 00:09:52.019 Maybe we might get to the point where it's closer 00:09:52.019 --> 00:09:55.659 to 30 or 40%. So I think there's a degree of 00:09:55.659 --> 00:09:58.139 patience, but we can't take the foot off the 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:01.220 pedal. We've got to keep pushing forward to allow 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:05.120 that full realisation of... the gender equality 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.700 i guess in the game to happen which is the playing 00:10:07.700 --> 00:10:10.500 and then the coaching and then there's like the 00:10:10.500 --> 00:10:13.559 governance piece as well which often people come 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:15.559 into right at the end of their sort of time in 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.700 cricket and so how do we make sure that that 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:22.100 gender pathway continues all the way through 00:10:22.100 --> 00:10:23.840 yeah actually and you talk about the governance 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.019 and actually in the little bit of reading I did 00:10:27.019 --> 00:10:31.210 you talked about setting up programs not for 00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:34.830 the girls, but with the girls, them creating 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:38.129 the programmes for themselves, which struck as 00:10:38.129 --> 00:10:40.970 good common sense, really, because quite a lot 00:10:40.970 --> 00:10:43.490 of these programmes are drawn up by people who 00:10:43.490 --> 00:10:46.769 aren't living what you're aiming for. Yeah, it's 00:10:46.769 --> 00:10:50.769 not super complicated to get youth voice into 00:10:50.769 --> 00:10:55.149 things, as long as you assume and believe that 00:10:55.149 --> 00:10:58.480 young people have... their own minds are experts 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.639 in their own experiences they are the people 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.379 who are living it so they know the most about 00:11:02.379 --> 00:11:03.879 it and you're asking the right questions and 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:05.779 you ask the right questions in the right way 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:08.720 yeah exactly and are willing to listen and maybe 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.960 have your assumptions challenged but to do that 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.700 doesn't really take that much We don't need fancy 00:11:15.700 --> 00:11:18.720 systems or structures to do it. You just need 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.980 to invite people into the party. It can be a 00:11:20.980 --> 00:11:22.799 bit unnerving and you lose control, don't you? 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.360 And so all of us coaches, let's be honest, we 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.500 like having things well organised. Yeah, and 00:11:27.500 --> 00:11:29.919 a plan. And how we think it should be done, don't 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.259 we? So that throws that all out the window. It 00:11:32.259 --> 00:11:35.139 really does. And it's funny because we had just 00:11:35.139 --> 00:11:38.580 had that experience at my cricket club. last 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:41.620 week in that we've just had a new set of captains 00:11:41.620 --> 00:11:44.200 elected up to now we had a softball captain and 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.519 a hardball captain which was fine but we've now 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.279 got two softball teams two hardball teams I needed 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:51.779 captains I needed vice captains so we had a put 00:11:51.779 --> 00:11:54.840 yourself forward get voted in kind of process 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.100 and one of the vice captains of our hardball 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:02.279 second team is 15 years old 16 years old and 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.879 the vice captain of our softball second team 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:08.100 is 13 so we've got a group there now who's sitting 00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:11.000 around a table discussing plans for the season 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.279 ahead there's been a new rule introduced into 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.700 the league which is that you must wear a thigh 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:18.440 guard and you must wear cricket trousers so you 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.419 can't wear leggings and the 13 year old pipes 00:12:21.419 --> 00:12:25.320 up well why why does it matter the main point 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.279 of the thigh guard is to protect you it doesn't 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:29.980 matter if it's in the inside on the outside and 00:12:30.789 --> 00:12:32.809 That's like an assumption that me, having grown 00:12:32.809 --> 00:12:34.889 up in a cricketing world where it's like, tuck 00:12:34.889 --> 00:12:37.389 your shirt in, your thigh guard goes on the inside, 00:12:37.669 --> 00:12:39.809 all of this stuff. It's a good sense check for 00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:42.850 me to be like, OK, that's a really fair point. 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:46.070 To what extent do I put value on how we look 00:12:46.070 --> 00:12:49.549 versus how comfortable people are? And so then 00:12:49.549 --> 00:12:50.889 we could have a conversation about, well, which 00:12:50.889 --> 00:12:52.590 teams are we going to apply this rule to and 00:12:52.590 --> 00:12:54.990 which teams we... If the league says we have 00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:56.830 to be wearing that in the top division, that's 00:12:56.830 --> 00:12:59.389 fine. But do we need to apply that into the division 00:12:59.389 --> 00:13:03.029 below that? Or can we say, we're happy for you 00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:06.269 to wear whatever you want to wear, as long as 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:08.370 it fits in the rules of the league. And then, 00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:10.350 should we be feeding up to the league that the 00:13:10.350 --> 00:13:13.070 13 -year -olds are saying, we're not so keen 00:13:13.070 --> 00:13:15.649 on the idea of wearing cricket trousers when 00:13:15.649 --> 00:13:18.610 we're comfortable in leggings. So, yeah, it's 00:13:18.610 --> 00:13:20.879 not hard to do, but it will... challenge your 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.799 assumptions and your beliefs maybe about the 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:25.659 game, which is a good thing. That particular 00:13:25.659 --> 00:13:27.860 conversation sounds like a complete minefield. 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:29.820 I'm very glad I'm not going to get dragged into 00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:33.960 that one. Just on your own coaching journey, 00:13:34.100 --> 00:13:37.200 do you count yourself quite lucky, fortunate 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.019 to have been at Middlesex at a time where you 00:13:41.019 --> 00:13:43.600 had, actually it's not that many, but I don't 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.080 know, half a dozen good female... Not just coaches, 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.139 but players, administrators around you. And I 00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:53.519 think back to that time in Middlesex, it was 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:55.860 quite unusual, wasn't it? To have a stable of 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:59.220 about four, five, six of you who were pushing 00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:03.299 things along. Exactly. And I think until I actually 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:06.480 went and did my Level 3... Good course that was, 00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:08.320 wasn't it? Yeah, great course. Really, really 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.039 well organised. You're the only diet coke now, 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.039 by the way. And my coach developer training, 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:15.620 which was sort of at the same time. Because I'd 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:17.200 been in this context where we had Katie Berry 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.820 as the big boss, we had Danny around, we had 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:24.360 Danny Warren, yeah. Also people like Phil Knappett 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.539 and Josh Knappett who were very egalitarian in 00:14:27.539 --> 00:14:29.860 their beliefs about the game. So we had these 00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:32.500 male allies as well as great female role models. 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:36.240 I'd never actually had any belief that... cricket 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.200 wasn't maybe a place for me because i'd been 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.240 working in a system where women were there and 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.059 it was kind of normal but you were probably lucky 00:14:43.059 --> 00:14:44.500 with that yeah you could have been somewhere 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:47.320 else absolutely and then you go on to these more 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.039 national courses because i've been in the middle 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.919 sex ecosystem essentially through that whole 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.539 period and then go into these other courses and 00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:57.200 settings and the things that you hear from people 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.600 in those settings and I guess maybe like internalized 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.559 narratives that people have inevitably create 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.879 when they're facing resistance all the time in 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:10.500 their context I was like blimey the people that 00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:13.039 you see around you and the systems that you're 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.559 you're born into if you if you could put it that 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:17.960 way because I did I was born in North London 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:19.360 and therefore I played cricket for Middlesex 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.259 but I could have easily have been born two boroughs 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.080 over yeah and ended up on the tracks yeah exactly 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.620 and have a different set of beliefs about who 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.320 cricket was for and who coaching was for and 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.720 who cricket governance was for. So I think you're 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.240 completely right. the right support of people 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.580 but just the normalization of it as well just 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:41.899 the visibility of it where's the whole gotta 00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:44.779 see it to be it is that the expression with your 00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:46.679 role models and having people around who you 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.539 can bounce ideas off yeah and it does sound so 00:15:49.539 --> 00:15:51.740 trite when you say you know you can't be what 00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:53.379 you can't see but I genuinely believe that's 00:15:53.379 --> 00:15:56.700 a really huge thing of like visibility is is 00:15:56.700 --> 00:15:59.179 crucial again not to bang on about nepal but 00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:01.080 that's what's one of our key things in nepal 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:04.960 was You can't play girls' cricket in a closed 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.019 environment behind high walls and expect community 00:16:08.019 --> 00:16:10.980 beliefs about who cricket's for to change because 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:12.899 they're not going to see it. So people have to 00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:16.179 see stuff for the norm to change because norms 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:21.519 are what's normal. I'm doing air quotes for the 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:23.220 listener at home. It doesn't work at all in an 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:28.500 audio format. But if a norm is about what's normal, 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:32.139 then... Normal is what you see day to day. Or 00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:36.360 don't see. Or don't see, exactly. And so you 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.480 can't be what you can't see because if you can't 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.399 see it, it's not normal. Right, you're off to 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:41.779 Brazil, aren't you? I am. I think I've caught 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:43.779 you just in time. You were in Coventry this weekend 00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:45.820 and the next weekend you were in Brazil. There's 00:16:45.820 --> 00:16:48.639 a change. I like to see every facet of the world. 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.580 Yeah, we're off to Brazil. So Cricket Without 00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:53.960 Boundaries and the NCC Foundation are working 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.690 with Cricket Brazil. to do a piece of work really 00:16:57.690 --> 00:17:00.690 around growing their community -based delivery 00:17:00.690 --> 00:17:04.150 and helping them develop their performance pathways 00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:06.609 as well. And so we'll be doing a bunch of coach 00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:09.130 education and development with their development 00:17:09.130 --> 00:17:12.049 officers. I'll be building. So we did a bit of 00:17:12.049 --> 00:17:14.529 cricket changemakers work with their youth leaders 00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:18.150 about six months ago. And one of the big themes 00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:20.990 that surfaced there was around gang violence, 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:25.750 drugs. It's the narratives that we're used to 00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:28.509 hearing about Brazil, unfortunately. It's the 00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:29.869 reality of a lot of the young people who are 00:17:29.869 --> 00:17:32.109 involved in cricket there. The conversation we've 00:17:32.109 --> 00:17:34.009 then been having is, right, so what does cricket 00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:36.690 for life look like in Brazil? Cricket para a 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:39.009 vida. Very good. I know, it sounds great. The 00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:41.509 accent wasn't bad either. Thank you. You know, 00:17:41.529 --> 00:17:43.769 what does positive self -identity basically mean? 00:17:44.269 --> 00:17:46.630 And that community piece that you were talking 00:17:46.630 --> 00:17:49.170 about earlier, it's like, it's the same thing, 00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:53.299 just with a different focus. of how can you make 00:17:53.299 --> 00:17:57.180 cricket a more appealing thing than a gang and 00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:00.660 how can you develop the life skills that will 00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:05.339 help you be a successful, engaged member of the 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:10.079 community through cricket rather than ending 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.519 up. on the wrong side of the tracks again. Are 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.700 you competing against a broken community or are 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:18.259 you competing against football? Because you think 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:20.599 of Brazil, you think of Pelé, you think of they've 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.680 got a great football culture and heritage there. 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:26.940 but not necessarily cricket. You don't think 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:28.839 of Brazil and cricket in the same breath, do 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:31.859 you? No. But do you find... Because probably, 00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:34.079 I'm guessing, it doesn't bother you too much. 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.140 If they go off and play football, then great. 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.480 It doesn't matter, does it, if it's cricket or 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:40.819 football? That's not incidental. For me, it doesn't 00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:42.359 matter. For Cricket Brazil, I'm pretty sure they 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.559 want them to play cricket. But I think there's 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.259 an interesting thing... Well, there's two interesting 00:18:47.259 --> 00:18:49.480 things about cricket in Brazil. The first is, 00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:54.359 when cricket isn't known... in the country, you 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:56.599 have a blank slate to reimagine what cricket 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.539 means. So, for example, gender equality, who's 00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:02.759 cricket for? If you look at somewhere like Rwanda, 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.319 cricket was introduced to Rwanda post -genocide. 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.539 So that's 35 years ago now, which is, you know, 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.339 cricket's been growing for a long time in the 00:19:10.339 --> 00:19:13.140 country, but it was introduced as a gender-neutral 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:16.539 sport. It's not a men's sport. It's a sport for 00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:19.079 anybody. And as a result, their women's team 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.599 do a lot better than their men's team. I think 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.880 the same is true in Brazil. You don't have to 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:28.980 have a belief about what class of people cricket's 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:32.259 for or what gender cricket is designed for. And 00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:34.559 you see that actually in how cricket's played 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.460 in Brazil in that it's fine to walk behind the 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:40.740 bowler's arm in Brazil. That's not a cultural 00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:44.359 taboo. We'll be playing loud music in our games 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.000 in Brazil. It's a reflection of Brazilian culture. 00:19:47.980 --> 00:19:50.380 but in the game of cricket and I think that's 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:52.720 really cool opportunity is that you can then 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.240 shape the sport to be whatever you want it to 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.940 be so yes I think Maybe you might be competing 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:01.680 against football if you're Cricket Brazil, but 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.380 you also have an amazing opportunity to build 00:20:03.380 --> 00:20:05.119 something from scratch. The other interesting 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.420 fun fact about cricket in Brazil is that there's 00:20:07.420 --> 00:20:10.779 a street game called taco, which involves two 00:20:10.779 --> 00:20:13.759 sticks, somebody throwing something towards you, 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:15.519 one person hitting it and you switching ends 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.740 with your partner. So it's essentially... And 00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:19.599 is this an older sport? Yeah. It's been around 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.759 before cricket? Well, I think the understanding 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:25.240 is that tacos originated from cricket a very 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.559 long time ago, became reimagined to tacos. But 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.539 70 -something percent of Brazilians have played 00:20:31.539 --> 00:20:34.559 taco in their lifetime. So if you're from cricket 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:36.079 Brazil, you can say, well, we're going to play 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.299 taco, but these are your sticks, cricket bats, 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.819 and you're going to throw the ball with a straight 00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:45.220 arm. That's the difficult part. And don't walk 00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:48.140 behind the sight screen. Do what you want. We're 00:20:48.140 --> 00:20:51.519 going to have a party. Samba. Exactly. There's 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.519 some interesting things there, which is often 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:56.339 there are, in lots of places, there are bat and 00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:58.599 ball games. So you just go, well, it's the same 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:01.119 thing, but here's our special bat. And yeah, 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:02.900 keep your arms straight, which is always the 00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:04.460 hardest thing to get your head around. It is, 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:06.019 isn't it? Because it's such a false movement, 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.220 the bowling action. So you have to spend hours 00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:10.599 in playgrounds trying to get it to throw and 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:13.160 then bowl and get a straight arm going. So you've 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.099 mentioned Rwanda. You've mentioned Nepal, 00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:18.000 obviously, a lot. You're off to Brazil. You're 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.839 quite global, aren't you? You're quite an international 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.470 jet set. Yeah, I'm very lucky in that respect. 00:21:22.789 --> 00:21:24.809 I think the thing I feel privileged to be able 00:21:24.809 --> 00:21:27.549 to do is I keep coming back to it, like build 00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:31.690 communities across communities. So have the opportunity 00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:35.410 to share ideas from Brazil with our colleagues 00:21:35.410 --> 00:21:38.950 in Rwanda or Rwanda. Link it all up. Your experiences 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:41.069 in one country help you move on to another country. 00:21:41.150 --> 00:21:43.950 Exactly. And share examples. So, you know, in 00:21:43.950 --> 00:21:46.930 Nepal. part of the stuff that came out of the 00:21:46.930 --> 00:21:49.730 cricket change makers piece was we developed 00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:52.930 a curriculum basically of games where we were 00:21:52.930 --> 00:21:55.210 also talking about life skills so how can you 00:21:55.210 --> 00:21:56.990 build connection through cricket and how can 00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.109 you build confidence through cricket and how 00:21:59.109 --> 00:22:01.829 can you support people to be more caring for 00:22:01.829 --> 00:22:04.750 others through cricket well those are all things 00:22:04.750 --> 00:22:06.549 that are relevant to young people anywhere in 00:22:06.549 --> 00:22:08.589 the world so we're now taking that curriculum 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.440 to every place that we go to. And then when we 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.180 were in Brazil recently, they showed us a really 00:22:13.180 --> 00:22:16.920 cool warm -up that was based on a football warm 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.400 -up, but they'd cricketified, and then I'm taking 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.559 that to India to share with people who were doing 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:25.779 a bit of work in India. So that's a real privilege 00:22:25.779 --> 00:22:28.279 and an opportunity that I get, which is to be 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:30.799 a little bit of a cricketing cultural bridge, 00:22:30.859 --> 00:22:33.380 taking stuff to different parts of the world. 00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:35.299 Very good. Is there anywhere in the world that 00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:37.039 you've got your eye on that you think would be... 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.359 quite fun quite that intrepid to go and visit 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.819 and then take cricket too we always talk about 00:22:45.819 --> 00:22:49.140 the democratic republic of the congo so my journey 00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:51.259 in this sort of international cricket development 00:22:51.259 --> 00:22:55.980 thing started in uganda and there's something 00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:58.819 i really enjoy about the way cricket is often 00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:02.319 played in certainly in east africa which is a 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:05.420 flat bit of ground and we'll get on with it There's 00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:07.440 not that much pretension in terms of what the 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.259 facilities need to look like and things like 00:23:09.259 --> 00:23:11.759 that, which is a bit of contrast to Nepal where, 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:15.380 because it's more, I guess, culturally similar 00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:17.779 to what cricket looks like in India and places 00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:19.099 like that. There's some nice grounds there, haven't 00:23:19.099 --> 00:23:20.380 there? There's some lovely grounds, yeah, absolutely. 00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:23.180 There's maybe a slightly less, let's say, fair 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:26.220 attitude to what constitutes a place to play 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.700 cricket. Somewhere a bit more raw. Yeah, I enjoy 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.720 that kind of, we'll make it happen. I think that 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.940 comes a little bit from, like, my first jobs 00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:35.069 in cricket were... You know, you're going to 00:23:35.069 --> 00:23:37.329 go to a playground in Tower Hamlets. There's 00:23:37.329 --> 00:23:40.170 half a... Yeah, two chairs and a car park. Yeah, 00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:42.910 exactly. Like, get on with it. And I enjoy the 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:45.990 puzzle and challenge of that kind of... cricket 00:23:45.990 --> 00:23:48.750 coaching environment keeps you on your toes i 00:23:48.750 --> 00:23:51.710 get that i'm very much the same mindset so being 00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:53.809 resourceful yeah exactly being organized and 00:23:53.809 --> 00:23:55.630 being creative yeah what are the opportunities 00:23:55.630 --> 00:23:59.190 here rather than what are the limitations I really 00:23:59.190 --> 00:24:02.849 love doing that so I think yeah DRC or maybe 00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:06.589 heading out I split the world up into ICC regions 00:24:06.589 --> 00:24:10.000 so east Asia pacific I don't know, Fiji or somewhere 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.460 like that. That would be a pretty cool one. PNG. 00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:15.099 There's some really interesting work that's done 00:24:15.099 --> 00:24:18.599 by the Australians. Whisper it quietly. In the 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:20.539 space of Sport for Development, I'd love to go 00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:22.920 and do some bits over there. Well, look, happy 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:25.180 travelling, safe travelling. And it's been fascinating 00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:27.299 talking to you. I should read the whole PhD, 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.440 really, rather than just the synopsis. I should 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.980 do my research properly in the future. But look, 00:24:32.059 --> 00:24:33.619 good luck with the work. It's a really interesting 00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:36.519 area. Thank you very much for talking to us. 00:24:36.619 --> 00:24:38.980 Thanks for having me. Really enjoyed it. Good 00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:41.539 luck to Sarah Begg on her work out in Brazil. 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:43.700 A really interesting look at grassroots cricket 00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:45.900 and the positive impact the game can have in 00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:48.359 locations around the world. Thanks for listening.