Hello, you're listening to The icoachcricket Podcast
Deep Dasgupta was a wicketkeeper batter
who captained India. Since finishing playing,
he spends half his time coaching and the other
half broadcasting. He's based between India,
where he's often found behind a microphone, and
Reading, where he's throwing at batters and keepers.
He set up a coaching academy with links to IPL
franchises and works with younger club players.
Tim Dellor's been speaking to Deep about his
approach to keeping coaching and his life nowadays.
Us cricketers, when we retire, we actually haven't
planned for our future, right? So I retired and
I was like, what am I supposed to do? So I coached
an IPL side. I ran an IPL side. I became the
chairman of selection in my first class side.
I did a lot of that. And then I stumbled upon
broadcast. And I was like, wow, this sounds right.
This sounds good. And that's... what I do right
now predominantly a sports broadcaster cricket
broadcaster and every now and then the coaching
still happens to be my passion so whenever I
have some time I try and you know coach as much
as possible and you're between Reading and India
now Reading I was born India I spent a bit of
time there quite different culturally aren't
they Quite different cricket -wise. It is, but
you know what? The language of cricket is the
same. The grammar is the same, right? You can
form those sentences a little differently, but
I guess the basic grammar doesn't change no matter
where you play the sport. The approach, again,
with T20 cricket and all of that, I think that
approach, which was kind of a little different,
is also aligning now all over the world. I do
travel quite a bit, obviously cover a lot of
cricket. Indian cricket and in India, do a little
bit of other stuff as well, traveling to other
countries. But yeah, I mean, like I said, I mean,
the basic grammar remains the same. And also
because of franchise cricket, Tim. What has happened
is the players have started to travel so much
that the thought process of starting to align
is a lot of exchange of ideas when you play for
different franchises. So the difference when
we were playing, when I went to Australia to
play, the way the Australians thought or when
I played against England, the way the English
players thought were a little different. But
now, because of franchise cricket, I think there's
a lot of synergy there in the thought process,
a lot of exchange of ideas. So it's not very
different now when players from different countries
play. Yeah, so it's not very different now across
the globe, but it's pretty different from when
you played. I'm not going to age you here, but
it's a few years since you retired as a player.
A few years. Got ahead of the curve a bit, didn't
you, by doing your coaching badges, I think whilst
you were still playing pretty much, which on
reflection was a... A good thing, wasn't it?
It was a brilliant thing, Tim, because my area
of expertise was wicketkeeping and batting. And
if you look back, say, early 2000s when I was
playing, there was a lot of coaching regarding,
let's say, batting and bowling and all, but not
to wicketkeeping. It was the same ideas, the
same technique, which I guess has been going
on for hundreds of years, right? So I was like,
I had a little bit of issues because when you're
keeping in first class cricket and suddenly you
play for India and you're keeping to Anil Kumble
and Harbhajan Singh on turning tracks, it's a
very different ballgame. So what I did was I
came over to England to play club cricket and
I finished my badges here while I was playing
club cricket one of the summers. And I said,
you know what, I'm going to coach myself. And
it made a huge difference. And I keep advocating.
I'm a big advocator of these young kids who are
still playing to actually go do their badges.
And then it helps them look at their game differently.
It helps them to coach themselves as well. And
I'm interested in the number of wicketkeepers
that then become really good coaches and why
that might be. So, I mean, I'm thinking in the
English first class game right now, we've got...
Paul Farbrace, Peter Moores obviously doing
really well. Well, Brendon McCullum, I suppose,
is an obvious example. David Ripley up at Northampton
until recently. There are loads of others. Don't
ask me now because I'm doing this off the top
of my head. I mean, listen, I'm in Fozzie. I'm
in Fozzie. I keep bumping into him. Yes, James
Foster, yeah. He's been using him now, right?
Exactly. And there's Adrian Shaw over at Glamorgan
and Chris Reid's doing really well. There's loads
of keepers. who are then becoming really good
coaches. Why do you think that is? What is it
about being a wicketkeeper that then perhaps
qualifies you and gives you that little edge
to become a decent coach? I guess, you know,
as keepers, you are anyways the fielding captain,
right? You are a leader any which way when the
team's on the field. So that you look at the
game very differently. So as a keeper, you bat
as well. So you know your batting technique.
But as a keeper, you're also... You're the best
guide to the bowler, to your captain. You know
your fielding angles, the field placements, what
the bowler is trying to do and how the bowler
should bowl, which line, which pace. As a keeper,
you look at the game from a 360 degrees, right?
So when you're a batter on a bowler, there's
a chance that you look at the game from... from
one dimension what you do what is your area of
expertise if you're a batter looking at from
a batter's point of view if you're a bowler from
that point of view but I think I mean naturally
keepers are leaders is what I think they look
at it you know the centre of the ground they
have a 360 degree view and that's how they look
at the game as well and hence they can relate
to everyone else as well in the side whether
you're a bowler or a batter you can relate to
them And another part of it is often you have
to look after yourself or traditionally, not
so much now maybe, but when you... I suspect
a lot of the time it was all deep, pop the gloves
on and help out with his fielding practice. And
we haven't got a meter today, so do you mind
just doing some glove work whilst the bowlers
are warming up? You're having to look after your
little department and to the benefit of the team,
whereas others, if you're a seam bowler, you've
got your masseur there and you've got your fast
bowling coach there and the head coach chips
in and you've probably got a statistician there.
You've got everybody piling in, whereas keepers,
you have to look after yourself a bit more. One
is that, Tim, and well, you'll guess my age.
I mean, people are listening. First half of my
career, didn't have any specialist coaches or
a video analyst. The first time I saw a video
analyst was when I played for India in 2001,
2002. And in first class cricket, we didn't have
one until 2006, 2007. So you actually doubled
up, like you said, as a fielding coach as well.
Because, you know, if the main coach, and you
used to have only one coach, right? So when the
main coach was... you know, with the batter or
the bowler, you would be helping somebody out
with fielding. Same when a bowler needed, he's
not in rhythm, you would do single wicket. I
don't know what it's called nowadays, but we
would do single wicket, bowler bowling to the
wicket keeper with just one stump. You have the
interaction with the bowler. Naturally, again,
like you rightly said, we didn't have a lot of
these coaches or analysts. So the keeper had
to do a lot of those jobs as well. So I think
you start looking after yourself. You start looking
after your mates as well. For example, slip fielding.
I still remember there was a season where our
slippers first couple of games started dropping
a few catches. So I took it upon myself to make
sure, you know, we do slip catching post-practice
every day. Make sure, you know, the slippers,
the assigned slippers are there and we take 25,
30 catches before the end of practice. Now we
do have some specialist wicketkeeping coaches
around. And I just want to have a deep dive into,
an area which, for a lot of us general coaches,
it can be a bit murky, because if you've actually
had the experience of keeping, you've got a better
idea. The rest of us, they're the guys who stop
the ball and sometimes catch it, and that's about
it, whereas you spend a lot of your life thinking
about it. And I just generally work as a start
point, as a principles: head, hands, feet. That's
very shallow, I suspect. Tell us, what do you
look at when you're first working with or looking
at a young keeper? Where do you go first? First
thing that I see is hand. how how nice are your
hands I mean how you catch the ball I mean that
is the basic right irrespective whether your
body's body have gone your feet have taken you
to the ball or not if you have good hands you'll
catch it even if you're not in balance and right
alignment and all of that jazz so I think for
me how one catches is the most important thing.
You know, the basic catching technique. Some
guys have naturally good hands. So that's number
one. Second is the balance with. I think if you
have the balance and you have the, I mean, you
have good hands, everything else can be coached.
And in fact, you know, even the balance can be
coached. But if you have balance and hands, hands
for me is the most important thing. If you have
those two things. I guess everything can be worked
upon because at times, you know, Tim, we also
tend to overcomplicate the sport a little bit.
As coaches, it is important because it is a tough
one. It is a complicated sport. But I think as
coaches and good coaches, our job is to simplify
a difficult job. That's what a job of a good
coach is. If a coach also complicates complicated
things, then it's... I mean it does not help
anyone right so when I listen to a lot of people
I watch a lot of people they talk about angles
and this all those are important but you can't
tell a 12 year old about angles and stuff right
you just have to bring it down to the basics
and say you know what just work on one or two
things everything else we'll see you know with
time we'll work on them but hands and balance
are two very very important things We might come
back to simplifying the sport in a moment, but
just go in a little bit more detail with the
hands. Do keepers generally have a stronger hand
and a catching hand? So I'm trying to demonstrate,
which doesn't work very well on a radio podcast,
but I've got my hands sort of webbed together
here. And I mean, are you a right-handed keeper,
a left-handed keeper, or do you try and catch
the ball in the joint or the fingers point down
or up? Big catching area I hear about. Strong
hands is something rather than soft hands, which
can... I'll do a bit misleading. So the word
I use is firm hands. It can't be too strong.
It's going to pop out. It can't be too soft either.
So the word that I use is firm. So that's somewhere
in between when it's not too soft, not too strong
either. Yes, join your little fingers. So your
little fingers are together. And thumbs are wide
apart. So that's how you create that space that
you just spoke about. So little fingers together,
thumbs apart. And the important thing is, and
post-MS Dhoni, I think a lot of keeping has
changed post -MS Dhoni. Because I think he just
took the whole playbook and chucked it out of
the window. The whole coaching, wicket-keeping
coaching book. And that's actually one of the
things also I started thinking about it is, he's
so good. But he's so unorthodox. Obviously, he's
doing something right. That's when I started
looking deeper into wicket keeping and technique
and all. And what I thought, there are certain
things which are non-negotiable. Hands which
are nice and firm, but on the softer side, good
wide balance. Because earlier on, we were told,
okay, the width of your legs would be shoulder
width. But then, that's not really, you're not
in balance, right? Now we've started advising
kids to go or suggesting kids to go wider, stronger
base, wider base. And then your feet don't move.
Because when I was growing up, my coach would
always say, oh, you don't need to dive. If you're
a good keeper, you don't need to dive. Your feet
will take you there. I'm sure you heard that
as well. But that couldn't be further from the
truth, right? Listen, the more you move, more
your head moves. So more moving parts means more
things to, you know, take care of. So those things
have changed so much now in the last few years.
And like I said with MS, the other thing is a
lot of keepers, we keep talking about giving,
even normal fielding-wise, right? When you catch,
you give. But MS never had a give. He would just
grab the ball and take off the bails from there.
And you see a lot of kids want to do that, which
is fine. But I keep telling them, he has big
hands and padded hands. It's nice and soft and
padded, those hands. And massive. He can't afford
to do that. But someone like me, I've got bony
hands. I don't have pads at all. If I start doing
that, every ball is going to pop out of my hand.
Not that I caught too many. But then, you know,
if I try and do that, I'm going to not catch
any of those. So those things, you've got to
be really careful because kids obviously want
to emulate their heroes or emulate what they
see on television. But those things, you've got
to be careful. and the head in line and the body
behind? Or do you try and catch it inside of
your body or outside of your body? Because I
think that can vary depending on conditions,
perhaps. In Australia, they catch it more in
line, but there's less movement in the air, perhaps.
Whereas you do that on a cloudy day at Old Trafford
and you get found out. Yeah. So there was this
big concept of... against the fast bowlers, right?
And I spent a lot of time with Rodney Marsh.
And he would always say, you know, take the ball
inside your body against the seamer. You know,
so it gives you half a yard extra for the edges
and all of that. I started doing that. And in
India, in Australia, that's fine because you're
standing 20 yards behind. You know, places like
even England and India, the ball swings around,
but it doesn't carry as much as Australia, right?
So you're like standing 10 yards from the stumps.
You don't have time. If you actually move that
much, you're late. So you've got to be careful.
So that's what I figured out. And then I went
to South Africa. South Africa, very much like
England, right? It starts swinging around even
after it's gone past the batter. And I was moving
and the ball started moving the other way. So
I still remember Dave Richardson, South African
keeper. He came over. He's like, you know what?
Don't do that in South Africa. Don't do that.
Just stand in one position. Just watch the ball
into your hands. Make sure your head goes behind.
And that's it. Don't take your body behind. Just
stay there and stay still. And many keepers have
come to grief. when the ball doesn't bounce so
much. So sometimes in India, definitely in West
Indies, that's been the graveyard of a few very
good keepers, hasn't it? And I think the key
is to try and catch it between knee and hip height.
Is that what you generally try and do? So you're
standing back far enough. So in places like England,
Australia, South Africa, more so in Australia,
you can afford to do that, say knee to hip. But
even in England, there are pitches which don't
carry as much. Old Trafford would carry. Leeds
would carry. But let's say Oval, you know, day
three, day four, it won't carry as much. So there
is a chance that you're really close because
you also have to be wary of outside edges. How
much reaction time would you have? According
to that, you're just yourself. Then according
to the batter as well, if the batter is a defensive
batter, you know those edges won't carry. So
you can get half a step or a step forward. But
if a batter was throwing the bat at the ball,
you know those edges would carry and they would
carry quickly to you. So you don't go forward
then. So there are a few things that you have
to worry about. Then if it's a day game and you
have a slip in place, if you've gone forward,
you make sure your first slip is closer to you.
because you won't be able to cover that much
area. So I think there is a combination of a
few things, but ideally speaking, rule of thumb
would be knee, knee anywhere around shin to knee.
Yeah, so that's more a tactical thing. We talked
a lot about technique, and what I've been thinking
whilst you and I have been chatting here is that
we talk about Malinga being unorthodox as a bowler.
We talk about Smith being unorthodox as a batter.
MS Dhoni perhaps is the best example, is he a
keeper recently who's... flouted the classic
rule book and is unorthodox. And I suppose for
keeping coaching, we need to keep in mind as
much as when we're coaching our balls and our
batters that people will have a uniqueness, won't
they? They'll have their own way of doing it.
But as long as they catch the thing, it doesn't
really matter. Absolutely. Like I said, I mean,
for me, it's very simple. If you're catching
the ball and generally you have a decent balance.
I think everything else will take care of itself.
I don't know whether you remember or not, there
was a West Indian wicket keeper called Ridley
Jacobs. I do, yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if
you remember him keeping. He was all over the
place. He was falling all over the place and
all, but he would catch everything. So we were
playing West Indies and one of the evenings after
the game, I was like, how do you manage to do
that? He's like, you know, my job is to catch
the ball. How I catch it is my business. I don't
worry about anything else. As long as I'm catching
the balls, it's fine. I say, yeah, fair point.
Can't argue with that. I can't argue with that.
So I guess that's what it is. You can overcomplicate
things by getting into the details and stuff
and all of that, which is fair enough. It works
for some people. But for me, I'd rather keep
it very, very simple. I don't mind doing about
30 squats in a gym session. twice a week that's
about that's about where I'm at okay you guys
are absolute monsters aren't you when it comes
to squatting and the physical side I think I
remember that stat about Alec Stewart do you
remember who was involved in every delivery in
a test match I think it was in Barbados because
he opened the batting twice carried his bat or
was not out and then was keeping in those conditions
I just I find that one of the most incredible
cricket statistics of a test match and the keeping
physical side you've got to be very strong in
the legs haven't you to be able to in long format
especially absolutely yes there's no two ways
about I think fast bowlers and wicket keepers
got to be the fittest in the side There's absolutely
no two ways about it. In fact, there was a test
match against England. I got the 100. I think
apart from one session, maybe one and a half
session, I was on the field for all five days.
Four and a half or something. It is what it is.
I mean, you've got to love this as well. This
side of wicket keeping, which is such an integral
part. Something that has actually helped or does
help keeper nowadays. Because earlier on, we
were asked to squat all the way down. Now, obviously,
what we advise is staying in that power position,
which is roughly around that 90 degrees where
your hips are higher than your knees and stuff
like that. So you don't have to go all the way
down. So I just think about it now and I can't
fathom how I would do it. I mean, just go down
all the way and then it's like a proper full
squat. Now it's half squat. But yeah, I mean,
that's the aspect which people don't see. But
it is a very, very important because chances
are, you know, if you're dropping catches. let's
say in the third session of the day post-tea
or even let's say the 48th over and all it's
not because you're not concentrating a lot of
courses oh you focus and concentrate but chances
are your body is not fit enough because your
body is not fit enough your mind is not fit enough
either so once your body is fit you can squat
so many times let's say 50 over game which is
what 300 times maybe 310 a few wide balls
if you can do that comfortably I think all the
other things take care of itself yeah and Alec
Stewart we didn't mention him did we when we're
talking about good keepers Very good coaches.
He should be in our list, definitely. You mentioned,
I can't imagine you ever dropped a catch deep,
but maybe a long time ago. Sorry, you nearly
choked on your water there when you were drinking.
Yeah, I almost choked on it. I dropped, yeah,
I dropped my catch deep. Maybe, maybe, I don't
remember that. But just say you did. That must
have been when your mental strength was most
tested, your resilience, because the natural
place to go is into your shell and hope you don't
get another one. But I suppose the real winners
when it comes to wicketkeeping, they want another
nick to come their way in the next over. That
is so true, Tim, because I've been through both
sides of that spectrum where I've dropped the
catch. And I was scared and I hoped and I prayed
I don't get another nick. I've been through
those moments as well. And I've been through
moments where I've dropped and I said, it's all
right. I'm ready for the next one. And that is
a very, very important part because it is a thankless
job. It is a thankless job. You will drop. So
the best day for a wicketkeeper in a game is
when he's not mentioned at all. If your name
is not mentioned, you know you've done a fabulous
job. That's how thankless the job is. And so
you've got to get used to it. I still remember
one of my favourite wicketkeepers all time is
Ian Healy. And some of you will remember, and
you would, that series against West Indies. He
dropped and Australia lost that series because
of one catch. So I was like, listen, if Ian Healy
can drop a catch and Australia loses a series,
anyone can. So it's fine. I mean, you will drop
catches. But like you said, how you bounce is
important. And that's what I keep telling kids
as well. Have a routine in place because it will
happen. I'm not saying you're preparing yourself
to drop catches, but it will happen. You prepare
yourself how to react when something like that
happens. So like batting, we keep talking about
having routines, right? Before you play a ball,
you have your routines. Before a match starts,
you have a routine and all. For bowlers as well.
So for keepers too, you should have routines
before a ball and after a ball or whatever between
balls. even for keeping as well, you should have
routines. You should prepare yourself for those
moments as well. Yeah, I remember talking to
one coach who talked about fielding rather than
wicketkeeping specifically, but I thought it
was a particularly brilliant point they made
about how as long as you've done the drills that
you've been seen to be doing the practices and
you've put the work in, then really nobody can
be too critical, can they? Because you've done
everything right and you will drop a catch. But
I suppose the only time you leave yourself open
to any accusations is if you've been... taken
shortcuts in the warm -ups and in the training.
I've heard this before as well and I keep saying
this as well you know as long as you've put in
your 100 % you can't possibly do anything more
it's good to say all of that but as a player
when you let's say you're playing a test match
or you're playing a whatever an international
game and you drop someone who goes on to win
the game for his team you know you've put in
the work but then still and it's not your teammates.
you know the chances are it's not the outside
voice chances are what bothers you is the voice
inside you and hence that routine becomes very
important how you handle the conversation in
your head is a lot more important than what the
outside world is saying Yeah, it's so interesting,
isn't it? That psychological side of the game.
Well, it's great to catch up with you, Deep.
I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I'm
sorry I made you splatter on your water a bit
earlier on. That was a real highlight of this
series, I've got to say. So what does the next
few months look like for you? You're in India
for a bit and then back in the UK for a bit,
back in lovely Reading. yes three weeks off between
world cup and IPL back home again and maybe some
coaching then for the IPL and then finally uh
summer back home doing nothing but coaching Great.
Well, thanks so much for your time, Deep. It's
been great catching up with you. Thoroughly enjoyed
it and we will catch up properly when you're
back in the UK. Thank you. Thank you for your
time as well. It was lovely to be on air with
you, Tim. Thank you so much. Deep Dasgupta speaking
to Tim from India. Thanks to him for taking time
out from his busy coaching and broadcasting commitments.
We'll have another icoachcricket Podcast for
you to download soon. Thanks for listening.