Hello and welcome to this episode of The icoachcricket
Podcast. Caroline Foster, when she was
Caroline Atkins, opened the batting for England
across all formats for a decade. Now she coaches
at Queen's College in Taunton and on the Chance
to Shine programme in Somerset. Caroline was
in the same Level 4 cohort as Tim Doller many
years ago, so they had plenty to catch up on.
Great to see you, because we did our Level 4
together many moons ago. I mean, it really was
quite a long time ago now. That was ten years
ago, because my son's ten and I got the Level
4 just in time to become a mother. Yeah, and
you've done a lot of coaching since then. Yeah,
it's been really good. I've been in independent
schools, education for term time, obviously.
I've been in the pathway with Western Storm and
the Development Centre and the Keir Super League.
And then more recently, I was with Birmingham
Phoenix for the 100, so... An array of experience,
I would say. Yeah, that's good. And I'm going
to ask the obvious question early, and people
will scream at their speaker when they hear me
asking the question. They'll say something like,
it's the same for dads, but for being a mum and
juggling your mother duties with your coaching
duties, how does that go? I reckon, I don't know
what it's like for dads, but people talk about
mum guilt, and that is definitely rife, yeah.
So, I mean, I coached Western Storm, and I love
the job, but I didn't... cope as well thinking
I was neglecting other roles in my life so I
think that was my start of my shift towards I'm
going to work in cricket in the development.
and then in schools, because it just fits with
lifestyle more. Yeah, so school term type. Your
little boy's busy at school, you're working,
and it all fits nice. You get holidays clear.
That's it. And actually, he's quite a little
left -handed batter. He can keep, and he bowls
a good base. Well, that was my next question.
He does both, doesn't he? He keeps out and bowls.
He does it all. He was approaching his trial,
and I said, what are you going to bowl? And I
said, I'll just ask them what they want me to
bowl. Okay, chip off the old block then. And
I hope you're letting him just find his own way.
You're pushing. your mum or are you just letting
him do it himself i tell you what i've noticed
and in school also like we we coach hockey as
well and what i notice when you don't know as
much about the sport is you are more let them
find and explore and it's it's easy but i've
also noticed in cricket when i'm coaching my
son i do let him go a lot easier i find it a
lot easier to let him go than others because
i think will he actually listen to me? Because
I'm his parent, not his coach. So I don't actually
tend to coach him much. I just serve the balls
up. Isn't that interesting? And you're like me,
I'm doing a bit of hockey coaching. You're probably
doing it at a much better level than I am, I
guess. But I do about four hours a week and exactly
the same experience. My coaching generally for
cricket, I think benefits from me doing hockey.
Because it suddenly makes me realise I'm just
overloading players with loads of technical information
or showing off about how much I know. Whereas
hockey, I have nothing to show off. I mean, I
don't know very much about the sport at all.
And it's really interesting, isn't it, when you
think you're immersed in one sport and then try
your hand at something else. It makes you really
concentrate on the purity of coaching and how
you're connecting with players and how you're
spotting their behaviours. I've got much wider
awareness of what's going on, I think, in terms
of the people that turn up. how they turned up
that day. Whereas in cricket, I can get a little
bit focused in the game and the skills and how
I want it or think it should look. Yeah, observation
skills, isn't it, I suppose, and your perhaps
preconceived ideas and you're looking out for
something particular in cricket, whereas hockey,
maybe you've got to watch a wider angle on it
all. It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, and we
were both saying... How dangerous is hockey,
by the way, as a sport? You'd rather be a batter,
wouldn't you? 100%. That ball's really hard and
they wear next to nothing like a gum shield and
that's it. So I do wince a little bit at the
game, but I do love the game as well. It's like
a team game and invasion. All the fun camaraderie
with it. Making it safe, you know, that old level
one, top nine. It suddenly becomes really important.
The original coaching bug comes back, yeah. But
it's a good game and I enjoy what it adds to
my coaching locker as well, actually. We all
talk about cricket, that's why we're here. I'm
guessing batting is still your speciality or
do you mix it up a bit more now? Yeah, I do like...
Coaching batting probably the best and I like
coaching individuals and teams. When I work with
individuals in other skill sets it's probably
not my strongest suit but then I think that that
also comes with advantages really because again
you kind of let them explore it and ask them
more about how it feels whereas If you go into,
like, textbook wanting it done a certain way,
you can get too rigid. You get a bit immersed
and too detailed and end up putting your own
views and ideas on them even if you're trying
not to. Yeah, absolutely, you can. And I try
not to drop that into conversation that often,
like when I played, because that was a long time
ago. Oh, it wasn't that long ago. You're younger
than me, I think. I'll tell you what, I was interested
in what you just said about coaching individuals
and coaching teams. It strikes me they are quite...
different skills or quite different demands on
a coach aren't they when you're working with
just one player on one skill as opposed to working
with a team they are really chalk and cheese
those skill sets for a coach i think like when
people say they're a specialist batting coach
or fielding bowling whatever they probably ought
to be a specialist individual coach or specialist
team coach because i agree with you i think they're
completely different and I have to do some individual
coaching in my week because I really crave that
time where you get just one -to -one with someone
and take their game forward. As much as I enjoy
team coaching as well, the player development
accelerates so much when you're one -to -one
with them. And cricket in itself, I mean, that's
probably why we all love the game. You're like
an individual in a team sport and coming together
with your own game plan is brilliant. Yeah, it
does lend itself to one -to -one. coaching perhaps
more than rugby or football or indeed hockey
or hockey maybe I don't know but it's very intense
isn't it I find it quite tiring in a team environment
you can have 10 minutes off and let them bounce
it off each other whereas when it's one -to -one
and you're the coach you're you have to be right
on it yeah yeah you're you're working really
hard every ball like knowing what to take the
session next and what you're spotting but I think
it helps when you go in like I did this morning
with a preconceived idea. Well, we worked on
the awareness of your aggression in your shots
last week, so we're going to step that up and
be really specific about what that looks like
on the back foot, for example, is what we did
this morning. I think we were getting somewhere
with a player who actually has a game model,
like the Somerset game model, has a range of
one or two risk shots, but then switches to four
or five. I don't know if you've seen the Somerset
game model, but I'm a big fan, and you're like
a surgeon. middle where you're quite balanced
about your risk and reward and you're almost
playing each ball on its merit really. I think
that's a bit of a gap that we can explore with
this player because you can go from blocking
it to smacking it without much in between. So
it's raising the player's self -awareness and
getting them to understand what they do and how
they do it at their best. Is that a synopsis?
That sounds really good Tim, you should have
been there this morning. I summarised it like
what sort of shots fit into that. that level
of risk how does your technique differ when you
are trying to seek more reward so that's going
to be different from player to player though
isn't it yeah sure but I think it is different
but I also think I start with an idea of what
I think and then and then I say right I think
if you're on the back foot you're probably removing
pace or using pace to be low risk and you're
going to be side on backing across and playing
with a really straight bat under your eyes. If
you're starting to accelerate the reward, and
the only reason why you kind of invite risk is
to get more reward. So I'm thinking now you're
looking to pierce the field. There's a saviour
mode where you're literally just trying to survive.
So that would be like leaving the ball. Have
you tried teaching that in school? Because that's
really... Well, I was going to say, is that quite
rare now? Because of the formats. I mean, when
we were kids, that was... almost a start point.
And now it's the last thing they learn, isn't
it? Just because everyone's watching T20, even
T10, and Red Bull skills are perhaps less...
I completely agree with you. And it's really
interesting to watch. I mean, they probably just
duck away and don't want me to come in their
net when I come in with a little challenge. And
it's like, you can't get out. But I think it's
really important for players to realise that
there are different ways to play. Bearing in
mind, I'm working at the grassroots. So, you
know, just to understand that I stand here to
face this ball, I've got an idea before the ball
comes that I've got to be... more defensive or
more attacking those are things that don't not
everyone thinks about before so we have a big
discussion normally about our awareness before
what what feeds into our awareness before we
plan something and then we execute it and then
we might this this all stands for apex so at
the end it's like our x factor is like how we
reflect and how we review what went well and
what could be better. So were we not aware that
it was turning that much or did we plan to hit
straight when it was turning loads or was the
plan really good and we've got on a nice turning
wicket and we're a strong sweeper and we're going
to sweep it. We got four but we just didn't execute
the ball right or maybe in our execution before
that we've not judged the line of length but
you can pick things apart. I'm quite... a fan
of structure so i'll look for a framework to
to sort of apply to the game that's my challenge
when i work with an individual who's a little
bit more well we did our mbti didn't we it was
we did i think it's still a thing mbti istj for
what it's worth what were you i'm an if my j
was a very deadline driven j so i am a little
bit p but j for structure yeah so you haven't
done mbti you're gonna think what on earth are
they talking about but introvert sensing feeling
feeling i was thinking that's because you're
male and i'm female that's really 75 of the population
that are female are feelers and 75 of the population
that are male are thinkers so i need to get a
bit more in touch with my feminine side yeah
and i probably so like i like and routine, but
I also will leave things to the last minute.
And do you think that's changed over the years?
I mean, now you're a mum and now you're a coach
full -time and now you're not a player and now
you're a little older than you were, like all
of us. That's nicely put. Well, Graham Fowler
always said to me that batting is an extension
of your personality. Yes, I've heard that as
well. Which I liked until I thought about my
batting. I thought it was a bit boring. Well,
Andrew Strauss always said he could sit and watch
a batter who he'd never met before. for half
an hour, and then he could give you an idea of
what they're like as a person and a character.
I remember him telling me that. I believe him.
He was coached by Graham Fowler at Durham, wasn't
he? He might have been the same story from two
different people. Fair enough, yeah. I think
personalities are big in the way you play and
the way you can be coached as well. And just
staying on the one -to -one and the team coaching
differences, one of the things with one -to -one
coaching is you have to do all the feeding. So
are you a thrower or a side -armer or a ball
machine, putter -inner? What do you do? I reckon
I've got the range, actually. What I struggle
with is I prefer to sidearm. That's my favourite
thing to do. I will throw, but I'm blessed in
a school environment where you don't get that
many hours in a row to do cricket anyway. So
I'll only ever do like three hours and then I'll
probably be on to something else or switching
it up. So your shoulder's all right? Yeah, so
my shoulder's survived so far. But I do think...
We do get the machines out because the kids like
it, but we're pretty slow to do that, really.
And it's a volume thing as well, isn't it? I
mean, you can get through a lot more deliveries
in a short space of time on a machine. Even compared
to side -arming, you can clock through massive
volume, can't you, on a machine? Yeah, that's
true, but your step count on the sidearm... Oh,
yeah, it's not good for your own fitness, no,
but it's... Yeah, the sidearm is really good
for you, isn't it? You can do a week of that,
you feel like a business. Are you still doing
your two and a half hours a week? Yeah, well,
funny enough, when we were younger and we used
to hang out on this Level 4 course, and you remember,
obviously, that two and a half hours of exercise
each week was my... And I didn't ever miss it,
really, when I was that age. I mean, to be honest,
I've had a shocking five years, but I'm getting
back into it now. So actually, the last two or
three weeks, I've been adhering to that. So it
doesn't look like it, but I am. I think you're
looking very well, Tim. Thank you. We did run
together as well, didn't we? We used to run quite
regularly, yeah. I remember running various venues
around the country. Yeah, exactly. My running
now takes me up Cotlake Hill, for those that
are in Torson. Well, how important do you think
it is to be fit? to coach so this is something
I've not talked about on this series before but
in my view for what it's worth it is a classic
by the way communication isn't it of asking a
question then answering yourself and then giving
your person you're talking to an opportunity
to answer and hopefully they'll agree as well
but isn't it interesting about that whole coaches
needing to be physically fit and To what extent
that's the case. Because I used to be a big believer
in that. Because it's hard, isn't it? Especially
coaching batting. I look at the bowling coaches
quite enviously because they can stand up with
a cup of coffee and say, get your front arm up.
Stop your dropping away with your head. And that's
it. Whereas for batting coaches, you're toiling
away. Well, I was sat with Dean Headley a couple
of weeks ago and he said we're undervaluing...
the art of coaching by being the ones that throw
the balls, pick the balls up, sidearm and hit
balls out and mitt and do all these things that
are physically demanding. And I do agree we have
to be fit enough to do those things. But if you're
not, I guess you then start paying attention
to just what value you can add. by the conversations,
which is the true point. It's a core skill, isn't
it? It's the point of coaching, really. And actually,
if you think about the pay grade of all your
coaches around the country, you could probably
hire someone a lot cheaper who could just be
your sidearm jucker. Brendan McCullum, apparently,
is never seen on the tools. Oh, he's not? He
doesn't do any sidearm? I've read that in a magazine.
I think it was Cricketer. Do you think that helps
you... get a relationship with the batter so
if you're doing a one -to -one and your side
army you can think i'll just drop this one back
of a length because i want to see that this out
or the other or this one they're going to bang
in the toes to see if they can react you're also
coaching and making decisions And that affects
your feeding, doesn't it? And you get a rapport
with the player whilst you're doing it. Whereas
if you leave it to someone else, it becomes a
bit standoff. Yeah, I agree with you. I just
haven't seen the other side of it. So I've never
really stood in a net and not picked up a ball
and started throwing and started getting involved.
It'd be interesting to see what that feels and
looks like. But touch wood, I don't have to do
it because at the moment I'm fit enough to do
it. Yeah, I know at some point. Yeah, I'm really
interested in that. So what's your answer? I
didn't really ever give you a chance to answer.
Do coaches need to be physically fit? Yeah, like
physically and mentally, you've got to be ready
to go and raring to go, I think, because that
obviously sets the tone, especially in school.
I think that's why I'm where I probably should
be in terms of... So it's role modelling to a
point. Yeah, and bringing the energy because
let's all be grateful for where we are and let's
all be purposeful in the time we've got. I mean,
you play for England, so you've always got that.
in the locker as an elite player I didn't didn't
even get close to it and so I always thought
that actually physical fitness was something
that anyone could do you can all reach a decent
level of physical fitness as a role model and
to keep up with the kids or work with the players
that you're working with we can't all hit the
ball out of the park every ball rockets every
delivery yeah that's true I do notice that as
a as a coach that When I was with the Phoenix,
for example, I would often gravitate towards
the ring fielding because I wouldn't want to
be the one that hits the ball from the far end
and nail it exactly to the boundary rope because
that wasn't a thing that I found that easy. But
you can get credibility anyway, can't you, by
being physically able and being... I mean, I
think there's almost a role now for a specialist
hitters, knickers, mitters. Side armers. Yeah,
and I noticed actually when I jumped on to a
keeping session how Jonesy came in and she wanted
the feed to be a certain way and I was like,
oh, this is embarrassing because it's taken me
like 10 minutes to get this right. Yeah. And
I had to hit the ball onto the ramp and, no,
I had to side arm the ball onto the ramp. Underarm.
And I've never used my side arm underarm. No,
I wouldn't have done that. So it was a good drill
once I got it, but she had to be pretty patient.
I mean, basically what we're saying is actually...
invest time to practice these things before the
players get into the net. This is random, but
I've started side -arming left -handed for my
dog. You know the dog chuckers? Because I thought,
well, if I get enough repetitions, maybe one
day I'll be able to land this fairly consistently.
And I have to say, it is improving, but I haven't
really tested it in the net yet. That's good
skills. And to date us, because we keep banging
on about, or I do, about our Level 4 experience
all these years ago. But that was when side -arms
were first coming in. And do you remember, we
all had to line up. and have a go in front of
the rest of the group, and most of us have never
touched one at that stage. And you have to get
used to them, don't you? And you have to get
used to that one as well, because I've bought
about six different sidearms now, and some of
them I can't use very well, and some of them
are really easy. But on that biomechanics module,
do you remember the uproar when he said you should
be able to throw right and left -handed? He was
from golf, wasn't he? And it caused absolute
carnage in the room, didn't it, when he was saying
that we should get our fielders to invest time
so that they can... execute run outs in i think
he was talking about in the feeling in the ring
on one wasn't he everyone should be able to operate
left and right hand equally have you done that
since no no no i haven't but i do think as a
coach Wouldn't it be brilliant to be able to
turn the ball both ways? You know, like spin
it into the bat, spin it away from the bat. And
the only way I'm ever going to do that, because
I've tried leg spin, is to throw left arm. I
think my left arm's got a lot more future in
it than a right arm. And nicking left -handed
as well. So the classic, isn't it, for slip -catching
cordons. You set them up for a right -hander.
You being a right -handed batter, that's what
you'd do. and then nobody ever practices the
angles of coming off a left -hander batter. Well,
we're lucky we've got a left -hander in our ranks,
actually, so I'd borrow him, I think. It's attention
to detail to a point, isn't it? But it's also
personal standards to make sure that... And without
it, when you go into a new environment, so when
you're at Western Storm, if you rock up and you
couldn't do throw -downs or... operate a sidearm
or catch everything with a mitt, your credibility
plummets very quickly, doesn't it? Yeah, it would
for me, definitely. And I pride myself on being
energetic and useful. So that gives me confidence
when I go in and feel like I think I'm the right
sort of pace for the sidearm for a professional
women's game. I struggle when I have to... If
I'm slowing it down for someone to first get
used to it in school, I find it harder to be
accurate. And then you worry about putting them
off a sidearm because you're not putting it where
they're expecting it. Which leads me on to optimal
paces of training in the women's game. So I was
working with a decent player who's playing pretty
much top level now. Women's game, she's only
17. And she said, look... And I wasn't... trying
to be clever, but she said, look, you need to
slow it down because actually it's bouncing too
much and it's quicker than I'd ever face in a
women's game. I wasn't particularly back into
it, but that is something to bear in mind, isn't
it? Because what's the point in them practising
something that they're never going to have to
deal with in competition? She coped with it absolutely
fine, but that wasn't the point. Yeah, I guess
there's a range, isn't there? You could justify
going out of your comfort zone and seeing what...
what's going to be good enough for the next level
up, but spend some time practising how you're
going to be competing. And I notice that a lot
of guys tend to go for the shorter sidearms,
don't they? Because their release point would
be ridiculous otherwise. It's that train hard,
play easy thing as well, isn't it? So trying
to work out what is the best use of time and
how far you should be challenging and stretching
players. I think... To see their response to
that is really interesting. However you cultivate
a session where they're out of their comfort
zone, it's really interesting to see their response.
I think a lot of people have become very aware
of their preferences and how they think things
should be met where they are. And I know that's
a big thing in coaching, you should meet them
where they're at. I think it's a real place for
disturbing people and making it uncomfortable
and just upsetting their rhythm to see how they
respond because there's going to be times in
the game that it does that to them. I love talking
about... how you responded and what your strategy
would be next time. But it's easier in the professional
game, I think, to talk in that sort of detail.
That's so interesting. So introducing an element
of chaos to just try and upset them and their
equilibrium. England hockey came out thinking
Thursdays, didn't they? Yes, do you remember
that? Was it Danny Kerry? Oh, I don't. He did
thinking Thursdays. So on my hockey session last
night, one of the girls who played... it was
thursday actually one of the girls who did the
session quite emotional And if decisions go against
her, she sort of goes into meltdown quite a lot.
I deliberately umpired the game badly last night
at the end. So to see how she'd react without
telling her, that's what I intended to do. And
it was really interesting watching her and then
explaining at the end why I'd done what I'd done.
And that's what you're saying really, isn't it?
They know how they think and they have an element
of emotional control. But when you chuck in some
curveballs, it's quite fun to watch how they
react to that. Yeah, and I guess the obvious
one that happens all the time in cricket is when
you... don't bat in the position you're used
to batting, I suppose, or you bowl in different
phases of the game. On the hockey pitch, it's
playing out position, and I think that's really
good for them to do. Or get bad decisions, I
mean, in both sports, and how you cope with that.
Yeah, absolutely. And just framing it as, if
you were looking at the world's best, how would
they have responded to that? I've heard stories
about... In preparations in World Cup games,
where they played two games on the same day in
a T20 World Cup, if you're in the second game,
you haven't had access to the ground until...
about 45 minutes before the start of your game.
So you can't even get into the dressing room
and you certainly can't have any hits in the
net because the other teams are still playing.
And that's the sort of thing that you just need
to be able to cope with that, don't you, as a
player nowadays? Because who knows what's going
to be thrown at you if you're in the IPL. Yeah,
that's totally fair. You do have to adapt. The
game's about adapting, but also your preparation
as well. I did notice that... In the 100, where
we would often go out to the net at Edgbaston
and have hits before the game. And obviously
individuals have various amounts of hits. Some
don't hit at all and some... And some of it's
superstition, isn't it? Yeah, Beth Mooney I don't
think. I think she's one that doesn't hit at
all. It's like, I've hit yesterday, so why would
I need another hit now? I mean, it takes some
serious mental belief to do that, doesn't it?
I'd follow what I'd copy the best, you know?
But I also know... is the guys never went to
the grass nets because as you can imagine every
groundsman in the country with all these growing
number of matches is struggling to keep the surfaces
as true as they can be and not everyone's got
hybrid nets all the way through and they get
tired so the boys just go indoors So they're
just getting ready. Completely different pace
surface. Yeah, they're probably facing the machine
even, just smashing balls on a skiddy nice surface
just to feel good and then go out and do something.
For their confidence, that's great. But in terms
of actually what they're going to be doing in
a few minutes' time out in the middle is... Pretty
irrelevant, isn't it? It's the holy grail of
cricket, isn't it? How can we make our training
the same as what we train and what we compete?
Yeah, we need to work that out before April because
we've got quite a long time, haven't we, to deal
with exactly that. A lot of the routine is verging
on superstition, isn't it? So you talk about
players who are completely relaxed enough to
not even have a hit, but then others, I'll have
two overs from left arm over and then I need
my three overs from right arm over and I need
to face... 24 deliveries of spin and then I'll
be ready to go. It's the one more brigade that
you can't get rid of. It's like, no, you're ready.
Yeah, no, you are ready. Did you have superstitions
when you were a player? No, I don't think I did.
Genuinely. Lydia Grimo always used to, at the
end, so say if she backed up and then if she'd
run a single from the non -strikers or she found
herself in the middle of the wicket, she'd always
have to go and run her back. in where she started
the over from or that ball from before changing
over. But I can't remember too many. Just routines.
I prefer to call them pre -performance routines.
But it's a fine... You know where I'm going with
this. It's a fine line, isn't it, between pre
-performance routines and superstitions. And
some of them do definitely go across that boundary.
Yeah, if you're fixated and you can't adapt with
anything. And also if it's like a specific number,
like you say. I've got a player who twiddles
his bat and it stresses me out how late he does
that. the ball is coming in and I feel like you're
still twiddling your bat. But if it's your thing,
you're comfortable, aren't you? Yeah, just as
long as it doesn't have any detrimental effect
on your own performance. That's difficult, isn't
it, as a coach to step in and strip away a superstition.
Yeah, that would be tough. Well, great to catch
up with you, Caroline. I've enjoyed that. A bit
of a natter about old times and keep on throwing.
That sounds good. Keep on running and keep on
juggling as well. Keep on juggling all those
roles in life. Thanks very much. Thanks for coming
to see me, Tim. Caroline Foster on the latest
episode of The icoachcricket Podcast. Thanks
for listening.