Welcome to The icoachcricket Podcast. In this
episode, Tim Dellor's been to Millfield School
in Somerset, home to former England and Somerset
coach Mark Garaway. When he's not working with
the peoples there, he's busy with the ECB coach
development's prestigious Level 4 programme.
Tim and Garaway have worked together for many
years and got a bit nostalgic sitting at the
school during the off -season. Millfield, sprinklers
on if you listen really carefully. And what a
great spot. I've always enjoyed your office because
you've got this fantastic glass -fronted pavilion
and you can see Glastonbury Tour in the distance.
It's a great spot. Yeah, you've got the tree
here as well. We've seen every cricketer that's
ever played on this ground. It's got a bit of
them in the route system, I call it, but yeah,
it's the best view on campus and it's probably
the best view for a long way. Do I remember you
doing a picture every morning of the Glastonbury
Tour and how it changed over the seasons? I do
it from over there. So I take a picture and if
you can imagine, I've been here nearly 15 years
now. So I've seen all sorts of weather conditions.
Obviously, the trees lose their leaves and then
they come back and the sun comes from different
spots. And yeah, it's pretty cool. So on the
day that I leave, I'll do the top 100 pictures
from my time here. Let's hope that's a long way
away. You're not older than me, surely. Well,
I'm 52. Are you? I thought you were younger than
me. Yeah, yeah. I'm just youthful in the way
I go about stuff. You have an easier life than
me. Correct. Comfortable lifestyle down here.
Actually, I was going to go back because younger
listeners won't necessarily remember. your coaching
from it's 20 years ago 25 years ago when you
were first linked in with England and Hampshire
stuff and I mean it was 30 years ago so we've
just had I mean obviously it's 20 years since
ashes 2005 and whilst I wasn't really a huge
part of it there I was just dropping in and out
getting experience at that point and then very
quickly moved into a more permanent role because
I was still coaching Somerset at the time but
I got great insight into training days leading
up to all of those matches that became so iconic
and we've had a few dinners and get -togethers
recently to mark 20 years and it's been really
great to connect with the lads again. It was
an amazing time wasn't it? Not just for you but
for cricket I mean and for the England team particularly
and you had obviously that Ashes moment or summer
that you remember but you had that whole west
indies who hardened you with the million pound
game yeah i mean of course what a time well it
was a bizarre thing because I think that was
a reaction to the IPL wasn't it and England obviously
wanted to keep the players happy and came up
with this notion and you know it'd be fair to
say that maybe in hindsight it wasn't a great
union to have created but it was a remarkable
10 days I remember being over there and just
being subjected to some really odd type things
so for example Stanford had this group of advisors
which literally was the brilliant and great of
West Indies cricket down the years with Gary
Sobers and Kirtley and Courtney Walsh and Desmond
Haynes. I mean, it was literally, Viv was on
it. The who's who. And I remember being called
into a meeting where I was representing the England
cricket team around the floodlights because the
floodlights were capped because it was right
next to the airport. And every time a ball went
beyond it, nobody could see where the ball was.
So I'm in this discussion and I'm basically talking
with the greatest players that have ever played
the game. And they're asking me for advice about
what we should do. So eventually I said, look,
I think if it's... If there's any way for the
final, the big game, the million -dollar -a -man
game, that you can get the floodlights down,
take the caps off, negotiate with the airport
that there's no flights going in and out, then
we can play the game, because you never want
the last ball of a game. six to win the ball
going up in the air and somebody clanging it
over the fence because they couldn't see it I
mean that would be terrible and then I've got
all the absolute legends of the game just all
nodding their heads in appreciation and we got
that done but yeah crackers as a coach I mean
that was an amazing learning experience not the
Stanford series a little bit. What's happened
there? I don't know. I mean, it was a good story,
but I didn't really think it was that good. Getting
around on the floors and downstairs. Look, the
Stanford thing must have been an amazing experience,
but that whole time for you, you must have had
a lot of great learning, not necessarily about
how to hit a ball out of the park or how to bowl
a few yards quick. generally about management
and leadership and communication and all those
soft skills that have been so useful since? Oh,
without a shadow of a doubt. And I think probably
the biggest learner was going to Australia and
trying to defend the Ashes and just counteracting
such a hostile environment, not just on the field
because of the quality of the players that the
guys were going up against, but just everything
from the moment you get off the plane through
to the porter refusing to take your bags or...
making stuff awkward at customs or whatever.
It was just a really hostile place. And to see
young players, people like Alistair Cook, for
example, on his first Ashes tour, occasionally
stand up within the heat of that battle, you
know, it gave you a real insight into what he
was going to do, futuristic captain and breaking
all the records and all of that sort of malarkey.
It was really great to see people stand up in
those really tough environments. And I certainly
grew as a coach because I got to see what, probably
the best cricket that's ever been played looked
like, and what underpins that in terms of humanistic
stuff so I could support players going forward.
You mentioned the IPL, but another thing is you
were quite lucky with the timing because it was
when modern cricket was being born. Is that fair?
Because if it had been 10 years before that,
I reckon a lot of those experiences would have
been quite irrelevant. But because of, well,
Stanford and IPL, for instance, or the now hostility
between Australia and England, which you could
argue. existed during the 80s and 90s as well
but it's reached a whole new level and social
media coming in and television the way they deal
with it was the start of the modern era really
wasn't it completely and it's completely changed
the game you know when you look back actually
at 05 and all the great cricket that was played
you know just to see the physical shape of people
has changed the things that people do on the
cricket pitch the expectations are very different
and obviously we've got the way that England
play even test cricket now is is very different
and demands on the on the mind on the body are
vastly different to those that we used to prepare
people to go into battle back in those days and
social media is brilliant because you know i
work with players between the ages of sort of
12 and 18 here well a lot of the learning now
isn't through my knowledge that it would have
been back in the day, you know, when I was coaching.
Yeah, absolutely. When I was coaching Geoff Butler
when he was 12, 13, it would have been very much
me giving information. And now it's using different
resources to open up people's learning. Because
most of the kids, you know, you can fire through
a bit of footage or they fire through a bit that
they've seen and they admire and they want to
go after. And it's a very different way of working.
But it's, yeah, you've just got to be agile with
it as a coach and go with it and embrace it.
Well, let me turn the tables then, because you
do loads for coach development. now at the ECB
and I reckon you've probably asked this question
loads of times to vivas or vivas I've never known
which and various interview moments but how would
you describe yourself as a coach now after all
these experiences that you've gained on the circuit
well I think actually I'm sort of more of a consultant
and facilitator now largely than a coach yeah
all what people would seem to be a coach but
I take you back to Duncan Fletcher who was my
first head coach with England He called us all
consultants back in the day. And Bob Warmer was
similar to that. And I was lucky enough to be
coached by Bob Warmer a bit in South Africa.
And I knew him throughout the last stages of
his life. And he would deem himself to be a consultant.
So I don't think we're any further away from
that. I think what that looks like on a day -to
-day basis has shifted because of the resources
and our understanding of how people learn, which
has shifted significantly. It was very generic,
wasn't it, learning? You pick your back up like
that, you step forward like that. understand
that people do things differently and that's
the benefit of having you know we can watch every
test match in the world on our televisions now
whereas we used to get six months where we would
see test matches and then we'd have to listen
to it on the radio so that all of that stimulus
has changed the way that people take on learning
and also is influencing the way as coaches we
have to interact with learning styles and differences
to get the best out of players. Being a coach
and a title of a coach, what you might do with
an under -12 group is so different to what Brendan
McCullum's doing or Charlotte Edwards is doing
with their teams. It doesn't seem right that
they're called the same thing because your role's
totally different, isn't it? So that's interesting
that you've picked up and you're almost redefining
what the guys working at the top end are actually
doing. But there still needs to be a connection,
doesn't there? Yeah. I think. And so that's the
art, I reckon, is looking at every group. you
got and you know my dad who was a brilliant coach
in his own right always used to say the most
important person you'll ever coach is the person
that's standing next to you or in front of you
in that moment yeah that stayed with me and that's
always been with me it's one of that event the
cricket club yeah yeah absolutely correct yeah
back back in the day but he he taught me that
and i think that still stands up so that under
12 group it could be a different under 12 group
from last year's and that's the exciting bit
of working in this space now is that each cohort
has its own nuance and its own difference and
its own previous level of experience. So you're
never coaching the same team. Because always
three or four people go out the end of it because
they graduate and go into university or go into
men's professional cricket or just go off on
their travels or whatever the case may be. So
you're always constantly reinventing yourself
to be able to interact with the people that they're
faced with. And I think that was, you know, where
we look back at great leaders and great managers
and coaches. One of Sir Alex Ferguson's greatest
attributes was his agility to be able to shift
and change, even though probably his values and
his beliefs never changed at all. quite deliberately.
Got new groups through, didn't he? So that he
could recycle and reinvent it. And he changed
the coaching groups that were around him to create
different stimuluses all the time. And in response
to the way that football was developing at that
time, and more foreign players were coming in
and everything that did. So I think we're in
the same space with cricket, is that we've got
so many different influences now. And you've
got to be agile and go with that. You mentioned
your dad there. Was he a big influence on you
and your coaching and what you do now? I think,
yeah, definitely. I mean, he was my first version
of what a coach looked like. And typically, as
any son and father, I probably listened to him
less than anybody else. So the likes of Danny
Briggs would have listened much more to my dad
than I ever did. And as a consequence, ended
up being a significantly better cricketer as
a consequence. But certainly, the way that he
went around coaching, the simplistic way he went
around it, I thought was great. And that came
from his teaching background and his head teaching
background. So things like, you know, he used
to say the three W's. And he was three W's. are
obviously the great West Indians, but also is
watch it, wait for it and whack it, which is
a lovely simplistic thing. And it still stands
true, doesn't it? 100%. It probably stands true
even more now because of the nature of cricket.
You're more whacking it. Yeah, there's more whacking
going on. So if you can take complex things and
make them simple to the person that's in front
of you, then that's only going to help learning
to happen quicker. And do you think as a coach,
one of the skills that we perhaps don't talk
about enough is the ability to recall stuff?
I mean, you're talking about it. like it was
yesterday, churning out little expressions and
catchphrases, and that was when you were a kid,
but also from 20 years ago in your coaching.
I get the impression the more I speak to different
coaches, the best are able to transport themselves
back quite a long way and really recall how they
felt and what they learned from those experiences,
whereas others maybe breeze through life a bit
too quickly and can't reflect and get all the
learning out. I mean, you obviously can. You
can quite easily take yourself back years and
years. Yeah, I've always been amazed by the power
of storytelling in terms of learning. So I had
an incredibly... I was rubbish at school. I got
four GCSEs, but I got an A in history, and I
did quite well in my history A level. And the
main reason for that was the stories that Paul
Thatcher used to tell me in class. And he used
to make everything come to life. and make everything
relevant because the stories would land. And
that was very impactful on me as a learner back
in the day because that was the only lesson I
actually properly learnt within. And I suppose
I've taken it into my coaching. Maybe some of
those stories are a bit long -winded and boring
at times, but occasionally they land with the
person that I'm working with. So technically,
I'm not really one that says, you know, get your
elbow here and get your foot here. But there's
some unbelievable stories about the different
players I've either coached or been around or
read about. So that's quite deliberate because
you do. Now I think about it, you absolutely
are a storyteller when you coach and coach development
as well. I've heard you. It's not because I like
the sound of my own voice too. No, I wasn't suggesting
that, Gareth. But it's a sort of proper method
to try and get the message across. Yeah, so you
look at something. An American sport is really
white. So you look at even going back to people
like John Wooden. you know incredible storyteller
the use of analogies to to make something land
is really is really powerful um so many belichick
on rick charlesworth unbelievable coach you know
across multiple different sports i don't know
if you read his whole book about shakespeare
and what it teaches coaching and that's a great
example of using completely so those sort of
things i think uh you know really really relevant
yeah the best coaches tend to do that But it's
a bit like being a player, isn't it? Underpinning
that, you've got to have technical knowledge.
Even though the game has gone in the direction
it has, you still need to have those fundamentals
in place. So I think the more you understand
about the game, the better you can design practices
to do the heavy lifting and the better you can
integrate your stories to galvanise learning.
Especially nowadays, because kids and players
are curious because they're watching one -minute
segments of cricket that's inspiring or creating
some sort of... curiosity so they can bring it
to you as well so I was going to ask you if you're
a fan of that I suppose it's a stupid question
because it doesn't matter if you're a fan or
not you can't fight it that is how kids operate
now isn't it well it helps to condense and you
know the world's a busy place think back to when
we were younger the amount of options that we
had to occupy our time were limited so sitting
on the side of a cricket ground and watching
six hours of play with your scorebook was part
and parcel of growing up because there was very
little else that could take my time up whereas
now it's a about one minute segments because
everybody is so busy. So again, embracing that
is really important. Can you condense six hours
into one minute video and get the flavor and
the nuance of a whole day? Of course you can't.
But that's where we come in. And we're sitting
here at Millfield, and this is very much home
for you now, but you're still up and down the
country, you spend a lot of time on the motorways.
Does that help? Because you see lots of different
coaches, lots of different environments, lots
of different cultures. I've always been uncomfortable
with being the oracle, you know, being the main
guy in anyone's space. The go -to guy. Yeah,
I find that a very difficult place to be. And
whilst, you know, in cricket in terms, I'm...
I'm the most senior one here. I never want to
be stuck in my way. So through stuff that I've
done and invitations that I've had, an increasing
amount of invitations to go into different spaces
and observe people in other sports, other domains,
just being really top drawer at what they do
and having some real idea about why they do the
things that they do is fascinating and inspirational.
And I definitely keep bringing back better things
that I can be doing and my team more importantly.
they can be doing around us. My ECB role is I
lead up a few modules in the level four. I have
done the ECB Level 3 fielding and wicket -keeping.
Very memorably. Very memorably. I used to regularly
answer your phone. You're the only person I had
in my phone. That's why I asked you. I think
it was just because I could be there for the
day and it saved money. You were very cheap.
But I love the Level 4 stuff and the insight
that that gives me and the opportunity to knock
about with some incredible people. That's it,
and you learn from all the coaches that go through.
Yeah, so you've got the coaches that go through,
but also the people that you bring onto your
courses. So knocking around with Danny Newcomb,
who's just the most incredible coaching mind
that you can have that challenges your own thinking
and the way that you design practice is great.
I've got a guy called Martin Rothwell that I
work with in the same space around skill acquisition
now, which is constantly challenging my view.
Ian Brunchweiler, who was my understudy at Hampshire,
I gleam so much from him. Paul Felton from biomechanics.
All of these guys that you're knocking around
with, it's incredible. And that's no surprise.
It's because they're all really good at what
they do and they've got reputations. But do you
sometimes find, and I'm speaking from my own
experience really, you get surprised sometimes
by where and from whom you learn stuff. So it
can be, it almost takes you off guard. You can
get learning in the most bizarre circumstances
that is relevant to coaching. And that's why
these courses are great because these courses
bring people from different walks of life and
different levels of the game. But they bring
in some incredible experiences. And I always,
I love to watch the professional. that goes on
to a level three or a level four. Sits next to
a teacher. Sits next to a teacher or somebody
manages their own business as well as doing some
coaching on a Friday night. And they, by a few
days in, they're going, crikey, you know, I'm
learning so much from those experiences because
they've been coached themselves, but they haven't
necessarily done that. They've been managed themselves,
but they've not had a lot of opportunity to manage
other people. And they pick up so much. So I
think that's so relevant. Straussie and myself
used to go out to St Lucia and do some coaching
over there and every year we'd have parents would
come in and bring their kids over for a week
of cricket coaching with us and being on holiday
it was great absolutely awesome and one day this
guy came up to me and he said oh Gary it's lovely
to meet you I've listened to loads of things
that you've done and been to some conferences
just let you know I'm a level two coach so if
you want a hand at any stage over the course
of a week I'd love to I said come on board Jim
come on board absolutely brilliant, no problem
at all, come in and do what you want. He was
awesome. He was absolutely awesome. And then
over the week, I'm thinking, I wonder what Jim
does, because, you know, it'd be fascinating
to find out what he does. So I said, oh, what
do you do? He said, oh, well, basically, I do
jobs that I can do for like 45, 50 hours a week,
which creates time for me to go and be a football
coach in the winter. and a cricket coach in the
summer. And I said, that's wonderful. I said,
do you manage many people because you've got
a great way? He said, yeah, we've got X hundred
of people working in the organisation. And as
it transpired, he was the managing director of
Costa Coffee. And I learnt so much through that,
even before I knew that he was managing at that
level and doing such an incredible thing in Europe
with such a big company. It was obvious that
he was a high performer in his own right. The
value these people have to the game, even if
they are able to just drop in for three hours
of a club night once a week in the summer is
invaluable, isn't it? It is. And so I get inspired
by those types of people because you can learn
so much. And I see on the courses that we run
that the same curiosity and interest I have is
also replicated across the cohort. Do you remember
talking of people you learn a lot from? Keith
Tomlins, obviously, we both worked with for a
long time. And there was an occasion where we
were both... I think it was in Antigua, wasn't
it? Did we go out to Antigua to do a level three
course? And Tomo got flown out just to do the
psychology session. And he had a problem with
his laptop connecting it to the screen. So you
and I offered to help because we were like the
young ones who had IT knowledge. And he had a
lovely 34 PowerPoint slides all set up and he
spent all the flight going across to get it all
set up. And this is the only reason he was going
over to Antigua. And between us, we managed to
wipe the whole presentation. He lost the whole
thing, which wasn't particularly helpful to him.
He was brilliant there, wasn't he? The way he
dealt with it. Talk about a man under pressure.
You've got Kirtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh
in the group, and he just went for a lap of the
boundary and then came in and did a barnstorming
three hours. Yeah, but then that goes back to
that experience that you talked about, that he'd
accumulated over time. And, you know, there's
no doubt that he'd have been absolutely rocking
when we gave him the news that we'd completely
undermined what he was about to do. But, again,
that's a great example of how you manage yourself.
He took himself. off for a walk he got himself
back together he probably said right this is
a situation now you've got to deal with it and
then afterwards I remember him saying actually
he felt the session was better because he hadn't
got the powerpoint as a crutch which is again
learning for all of us which I think which I
think we do anyway don't we I did a session yesterday
with Molly so I went in with the most outstanding
plan wrote it all down it was looking absolutely
fabulous we got about half a bucket in it was
obvious that wasn't the right time for that session
so we adapted it completely i got a message from
her mum and dad this morning saying that she
was absolutely buzzing when she came home last
night and we've got a session actually this afternoon
where we're going to build on what we did yesterday
but plans are great and it's a bit like the when
we went to Sandhurst all those years ago and
did some stuff up there. It's great to have a
plan, but it only lasts until the contact with
the opposition for the first time. And that was
no different to yesterday. And whenever that
happens, you've got the choice, haven't you,
to brute force application, this plan is going
to work. Or am I going to adapt to what's in
front of me? And certainly that Sandhurst experience
has helped me to coach Molly yesterday. And that
psychology in Antigua with Tom, for example,
was a great example of someone who had the skill
to... flex but I thought the audacity of you
afterwards to say no I did it deliberately because
I knew it was frightening I'm not sure I think
we might have had a beer before I said that um
yeah so look you've got busy your winter ahead
no doubt you're going to be charging around coach
development stuff here yeah so we're always busy
here we just started last week actually we give
them a bit of time off transition wise yeah how
important is that by the way because I've been
talking to other coaches about that giving them
a bit of time to just freshen up mentally and
get away from cricket even if it's just for a
month or two well I think if you look at even
the top players in the world that they they do
that well they do they they create them some
years you have to build them in you have to build
them in yeah you have to build them in because
if you don't then it's gonna have a trade -off
against your ability to be able to play so 100
% believer of that and when I first got here
my first day years ago we started straight away
and I'm like what are we doing in September yeah
I'm like what are we doing And they said, well,
we've got to justify our positions. I said, no,
no, no, no, no. We're stopping that right now.
Because if you have five years of 12 months a
year cricket, that's 60 months consecutive cricket.
Well, I think there's a good chance you're going
to end up in a mental asylum if you did that.
Sick of the game. Yeah, so we don't want that.
We want the complete opposite, don't we? We want
people to leave school, whether they've played
lots of cricket and Colts cricket. and still
feel compelled that they want to go down to a
cricket club on a Wednesday and a Saturday and
play cricket. You want their kids in the future
to be living off of the positive experience that
their parents had through cricket. And of course,
parents now, even more so, and will be in the
future, is the mum and the dad because of the
way that the girls' game's grown. And it's just
wonderful. So be confident enough to have a bit
of time out, let the players have a bit of time
out. Don't feel like you've got to continually
justify your existence as a coach. It'd be crackers
to do that. So we give them a bit of space. We
do some planning for what the first phase is
going to look like in their one -to -one sessions.
And then we gradually get them back into just
into some of the routines. So last week was our
first week back and they come back refreshed
and they come back ready. And in fact, we've
got two or three that aren't coming back until
a couple of weeks time because they had national
finals that went on into the back end of September.
So they have their transition period now. Great.
Well, look, go well, Gareth. Great to catch up,
a few stories. But it's interesting, I really
enjoyed that whole piece about storytelling as
a vehicle for coaching, as a tool for coaching.
That was great. And go well. Nice to see you,
Gareth. Thanks very much. Good to see you, mate.
Great to hear from Mark Garaway. And yes, that's
just the edited version of a very long chat with
far too many stories from years gone by. Thanks
for listening to this episode of The icoachcricket
Podcast.