WEBVTT 00:00:03.069 --> 00:00:06.490 Welcome to The icoachcricket Podcast. The Ashes 00:00:06.490 --> 00:00:08.949 is just around the corner and it'll be all eyes 00:00:08.949 --> 00:00:11.509 on what's happening in Australia. The second 00:00:11.509 --> 00:00:13.970 test is in Brisbane, which is where coach Ian 00:00:13.970 --> 00:00:17.019 Renshaw is based. The Englishman, who's Australia 00:00:17.019 --> 00:00:19.519 and Somerset left -handed batter Matthew Renshaw's 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.219 dad, is a real authority on coaching, having 00:00:22.219 --> 00:00:25.140 spent a 40 -year career working as a PE teacher 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:28.239 and researching coaching at universities around 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:30.600 the world. He's just brought out a book, and 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:32.740 with the ashes happening in his backyard over 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:35.100 the next few months, it seemed a good time for 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:40.039 Tim to have a chat with him. what does liam plunkett's 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:42.560 former babysitter do out in brisbane how did 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:45.520 that all work out uh yeah that's that's an interesting 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.359 one liam played into the school that i i taught 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.500 at although i'd left by the time he arrived at 00:00:51.500 --> 00:00:54.700 the school but we knew the family alan was dad 00:00:54.700 --> 00:00:58.320 was a six foot four medium pacer really but he 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.859 just got me out for fun and we obviously knew 00:01:00.859 --> 00:01:03.640 the plunkets and they asked allison to to sort 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.540 of do some mass tutoring um for Liam's older 00:01:07.540 --> 00:01:10.519 sister and then when Liam came through he he 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:12.780 sponsored some maths tutoring as well I was actually 00:01:12.780 --> 00:01:16.760 doing a MSc in coaching studies up in Moray House 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.060 in Edinburgh at the time on a Monday used to 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:21.859 come so while I was away he'd come around he'd 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.519 come come on his bike with his cricket bat leave 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.560 the bike outside take the bat in and my son was 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:30.159 only a little at the time and he'd come looking 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.120 down the stairs see the cricket bat and all Liam 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.140 wanted to do was talk cricket which was you know 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:38.920 obviously his future. Matt captained Cricket 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:41.500 Australia 11 and it was a one dayer against Australia 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:44.760 and Liam was playing in the game and got Matthew 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:47.159 out and as he's walking off Johnny Bairstow said 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.500 fancy getting out to your babysitter you know 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:54.019 lovely lovely not sure quite some quite appreciated 00:01:54.019 --> 00:01:57.379 at the time Yeah, small world, isn't that? Small 00:01:57.379 --> 00:01:59.079 world. You never know how you're going to cross 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.560 paths with people in years to come. I've obviously 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:04.519 got your book in front of me, Dynamic Coaching, 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.319 a playbook for cricket coaches. Actually, it 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.020 must have been a bit of a labour of love, this, 00:02:09.020 --> 00:02:11.620 I guess. It reads like you've really enjoyed 00:02:11.620 --> 00:02:14.199 writing it and it's almost a cathartic experience 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:16.539 getting a lot off your chest, I reckon. Yeah, 00:02:16.539 --> 00:02:19.819 I've been involved in coaching since I was about 00:02:19.819 --> 00:02:22.539 18, really. I think when you, there weren't any 00:02:22.539 --> 00:02:24.860 coaches there in club cricket, was there? Well, 00:02:24.860 --> 00:02:26.719 there were if you played at the county and you 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.819 went for nets and trials and things. So I started 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:32.500 my journey at Nottinghamshire and Trent Bridge 00:02:32.500 --> 00:02:35.740 as a 15 year old. My English teacher took us 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:39.180 down. I got through the second trial, but wasn't 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:40.960 really playing much cricket at that time. And 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.860 then got massively hooked and then just decided 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:46.580 I wanted to learn everything I could about batting. 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:48.979 And I was a dreadful leg spin bowler or an off 00:02:48.979 --> 00:02:51.680 spin bowler, whatever, at that time. And eventually 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.900 got good enough to play. a couple of second 11 00:02:54.900 --> 00:02:57.919 games for knots played at trent bridge which 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.620 was lovely of course and then went to uni really 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:04.419 and wasn't wasn't good enough as a player so 00:03:04.419 --> 00:03:07.379 then started coaching did all my badges up at 00:03:07.379 --> 00:03:10.199 carnegie as it was then with the great ralph 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:12.979 middlebrook if people will know in coaching terms 00:03:12.979 --> 00:03:16.840 in in the northeast or up in yorkshire and then 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.919 went to teach in in middlesbrough i've always 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.169 coached When you have kids, of course, you end 00:03:23.169 --> 00:03:25.889 up coaching them. We were in New Zealand watching 00:03:25.889 --> 00:03:28.250 the Pairs cricket, the quick cricket in England, 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:31.250 wasn't it? Or Milo, I think, in New Zealand, 00:03:31.330 --> 00:03:33.909 working out that this wasn't really going to 00:03:33.909 --> 00:03:36.469 make anybody a good player. You get 12 balls 00:03:36.469 --> 00:03:39.770 to bat and bowl. And I always said, like, what 00:03:39.770 --> 00:03:41.629 did Matthew become good at during that? Well, 00:03:41.729 --> 00:03:44.389 cartwheeling, because in the field he was bored. 00:03:44.750 --> 00:03:47.509 So we'd just go up and I'd make games up. So 00:03:47.509 --> 00:03:49.860 I'd make games up, we'd play. Loads and loads 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:51.860 of games would be there forever because he wanted 00:03:51.860 --> 00:03:53.800 to be, not because I was trying to push him or 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.360 anything. And the book sort of came out of that 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.319 and then coaching some club teams, some other 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:03.900 junior teams, grade teams. And it sort of emerged 00:04:03.900 --> 00:04:07.300 into this whole collection of games. The whole 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:10.099 approach to it was games because my day job was 00:04:10.099 --> 00:04:13.930 skill acquisition lecturer at university. I came 00:04:13.930 --> 00:04:16.870 across this new way of, it's still not been, 00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:19.389 still classed as a new way, but it's now 40 years 00:04:19.389 --> 00:04:22.529 old, a constraint -led approach through my mentor 00:04:22.529 --> 00:04:25.550 and Professor Keith Davids, who's still at Sheppard 00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:28.370 Hallam, incredibly influential in this area. 00:04:28.490 --> 00:04:30.810 And then started to mesh the two ideas together 00:04:30.810 --> 00:04:34.069 and then was fortunate enough to do my PhD in 00:04:34.069 --> 00:04:36.670 cricket, which was great fun, where we looked 00:04:36.670 --> 00:04:39.459 at... perception and action the importance of 00:04:39.459 --> 00:04:42.339 the perceptual information in determining the 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:45.319 action so we looked at bowling machines versus 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.579 bowlers and looked at what happened to the technique 00:04:47.579 --> 00:04:50.660 if you took all the the visual information away 00:04:50.660 --> 00:04:53.000 from the bowler and of course that changed technique 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.939 you get a bowling machine technique as you've 00:04:55.939 --> 00:04:58.620 probably seen as most people will have seen and 00:04:58.620 --> 00:05:01.879 then also some stuff around run -ups of what 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.379 happens if you take the umpire away i remember 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:08.029 collecting that data at north ants and peter 00:05:08.029 --> 00:05:10.990 willie was on the ground with his son david i 00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:13.490 think a real youngster at that time husk was 00:05:13.490 --> 00:05:17.230 playing as the overseas swanny was there so that 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:18.949 that's where i collected the data from that and 00:05:18.949 --> 00:05:21.810 again we just showed that if you take the umpire 00:05:21.810 --> 00:05:24.449 away it changes the run -ups it changes people's 00:05:24.449 --> 00:05:27.829 run -ups so yeah so so now drives me potty i've 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:30.949 seen people coaching or going in the nets without 00:05:30.949 --> 00:05:33.310 an umpire present and people are bowling no balls 00:05:33.310 --> 00:05:36.839 because the umpire gives them a visual reference 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:38.639 does it need to be an umpire or could it just 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.399 be a dustbin or something i think you know like 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:45.259 depends how like the dustbin is but some umpires 00:05:45.259 --> 00:05:48.040 are not not spelled are they but yeah ashley 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:51.220 ross is a friend um tells a story of going to 00:05:51.220 --> 00:05:54.079 india with a new zealand team and all their training 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.180 was with a camera place where the umpire wanted 00:05:57.180 --> 00:06:00.879 yeah a tripod and they wanted accountability 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:02.879 so they wanted to be able to record what was 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.459 doing and he talked about not having one no ball 00:06:05.459 --> 00:06:08.180 on the whole tour so you're probably right it 00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:09.899 doesn't have to be an umpire but it needs to 00:06:09.899 --> 00:06:12.660 be something it's interesting i was a dreadful 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:14.540 baller one year i was captain at middlesbrough 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:17.759 and we'd lost the game by a mile but they needed 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:20.060 20 odd off one over so i decided to have a ball 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.600 and bolt some dreadful leg spin and as i ran 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.779 into ball i found i couldn't get to the crease 00:06:25.779 --> 00:06:28.600 because the umpire was where i would have run 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.139 through on crikey i can't go there so it just 00:06:31.139 --> 00:06:34.399 shows the importance of designing the environments 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.519 that you that you work with so the theory sort 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:42.250 of meshed with the practice. And there's a lot 00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:44.970 of the games and the ideas in the book came out 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:47.910 of that joint meshing, basically. I'm going to 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:50.529 jump on the bowling machine issue as well, because 00:06:50.529 --> 00:06:52.490 there'll be people listening going, well, is 00:06:52.490 --> 00:06:55.009 there ever a place for a bowling machine? Because 00:06:55.009 --> 00:06:57.350 as you say, you can't pick up any of the signals, 00:06:57.589 --> 00:07:00.170 can you? You can't get any of the information 00:07:00.170 --> 00:07:02.870 that you would typically get when a bowler's 00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:05.970 releasing. But then there is an argument that 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:10.300 for grooving at certain times maybe it does help 00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:13.319 shaping a shot do you think there's ever a ever 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.339 a moment where a bowling machine's the answer 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:18.740 the short answer yes there is a place but it 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:22.079 has to be understanding what you're losing and 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:24.500 the purpose of doing it and that that idea of 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.439 trying to do the same skill over and over again 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:32.180 to perfect it is is a fallacy a lot of the research 00:07:32.180 --> 00:07:34.660 has shown that if you do that it doesn't work 00:07:34.660 --> 00:07:36.980 as well as mixing things up so i would say if 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:38.579 you're going to use a bowling machine slow it 00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.959 down it's really important because it's faster 00:07:42.990 --> 00:07:44.810 And when we did the study, which should make 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:47.209 it clear, we used a bowler bowling machine and 00:07:47.209 --> 00:07:49.790 we adjusted the length so they didn't know what 00:07:49.790 --> 00:07:51.290 length was coming. So when you don't know what 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:53.970 length is coming, you have to wait and see more 00:07:53.970 --> 00:07:55.930 of the early ball flight before you can make 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:58.889 your decision to go back or forward. So that 00:07:58.889 --> 00:08:01.149 shortens your time interval, which means that 00:08:01.149 --> 00:08:02.990 people just plonk their front foot and throw 00:08:02.990 --> 00:08:05.389 the bat forward. And that's what we showed in 00:08:05.389 --> 00:08:07.990 the study. And you see that all the time. But 00:08:07.990 --> 00:08:09.810 I say if you're going to use it, slow it down. 00:08:09.910 --> 00:08:13.120 It's not for developing pace at all. and mix 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.620 up where you stand. If you haven't got a machine 00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:18.660 where you can make adjustments, then change your 00:08:18.660 --> 00:08:20.720 position on the crease each time. So if you're 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.660 working on drives, and I don't like to call them, 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.860 you know, off drive, on drive, cover drive, just 00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:28.060 call them vertical bat shots. If you're working 00:08:28.060 --> 00:08:30.579 on your vertical bat shots, just keep moving 00:08:30.579 --> 00:08:32.860 yourself around. You know, you can do the whole 00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:35.889 lot. pick off your toe you can do the extra cover 00:08:35.889 --> 00:08:38.590 dry etc etc or similarly if you're off the back 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:41.710 foot but one of the things against short pitch 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:44.570 bowling i think they're very useful because it's 00:08:44.570 --> 00:08:46.950 hard to simulate that bowlers you're just not 00:08:46.950 --> 00:08:48.929 going to get bowlers who are going to be able 00:08:48.929 --> 00:08:52.639 to do that so if you put it in with a short ball 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.639 it seems to mimic for me there's some eye tracking 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:57.820 studies that have been done in cricket which 00:08:57.820 --> 00:09:00.399 show that on the short ball you your eyes move 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.200 to the bounce point of the ball and then you 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.100 track it after that so i think as soon as you 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:07.159 see the ball coming out at a steep angle and 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.259 you know it's short then it's a bit more like 00:09:09.259 --> 00:09:11.419 it nobody's ever done that study so i can't prove 00:09:11.419 --> 00:09:15.409 that I often use use that for back foot practice 00:09:15.409 --> 00:09:18.830 but again don't just practice one shot or divide 00:09:18.830 --> 00:09:21.409 the outfield into eight zones and you're going 00:09:21.409 --> 00:09:23.330 to go I'm going to go fine I'm going to go behind 00:09:23.330 --> 00:09:24.970 square I'm going to go in front of square I'm 00:09:24.970 --> 00:09:27.350 going to go over mid wicket go up and over for 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:29.730 six then go down you know and mix it up that 00:09:29.730 --> 00:09:31.429 way and then of course do the same on the other 00:09:31.429 --> 00:09:34.330 side but one thing I would say is if you're working 00:09:34.330 --> 00:09:36.889 on the short ball the key to that is one ball 00:09:36.889 --> 00:09:39.730 out of every four five six must be a full ball 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:42.480 Because you've still got to be looking for the 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:44.559 full ball. Because that's the earliest point 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.720 of release. So if you're not looking for the 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.600 full ball, you're sat on the back foot just waiting. 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:51.620 You're not going to then replicate the coordinates 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:53.440 and the movement patterns that you're going to 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:55.960 get in a game. So watch Ponting when he pulls. 00:09:56.139 --> 00:09:58.179 He's looking for the full ball. He pushes forward 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:00.379 and he pushes back and then goes bang. And the 00:10:00.379 --> 00:10:03.259 top players all have that hovering of looking 00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:05.779 for the full ball. And if you're working on drives, 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.240 occasionally one's got to go up your nose. as 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:12.080 well so just to keep them honest keep you honest 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:15.500 yeah actually reading your book the dynamic coaching 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:18.899 book quite a lot of the premise is about making 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:21.539 it real i don't know if that's almost the expression 00:10:21.539 --> 00:10:24.440 to use it so game scenarios decision making a 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.659 lot of it is based on that and i suppose that 00:10:27.659 --> 00:10:31.000 is with the boring machine is very much not real 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:34.159 a dog stick you know the side arms that's a step 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.879 in the right direction but ultimately it's a 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:39.620 bowler isn't it that's that's the most real yeah 00:10:39.620 --> 00:10:42.320 I mean I haven't I've wanted to do that research 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:46.000 for on the dog stick for five six years doing 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.840 a level three for cricket Australia a few years 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:51.139 ago and we were talking about what would you 00:10:51.139 --> 00:10:53.299 rate it in terms of some of the practice tasks 00:10:53.299 --> 00:10:55.440 out of 10 and that's one of the tasks in the 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.700 book and we talked about the dog stick and Tim 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:02.450 Payne was in the Australian team, he talked to 00:11:02.450 --> 00:11:05.750 Greg Chappell about using the dog stick. And 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:07.649 he said, and it felt as though his timing was 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:09.529 out and he was stuffing him up. And Greg said, 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:12.090 don't do it. Don't use it anymore. And he went 00:11:12.090 --> 00:11:14.230 away from it. And that's when his batting just 00:11:14.230 --> 00:11:16.570 took off. Now, obviously, whether that's coincidence 00:11:16.570 --> 00:11:20.269 or not, the timing, the coordination from the 00:11:20.269 --> 00:11:23.250 stick is not like a bowler again. So there's 00:11:23.250 --> 00:11:26.600 an extra joint in there, isn't there? and then 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:29.600 the height is also different so i mean i i talk 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.159 about with youngsters he's trying rather than 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.659 doing throw downs like the old -fashioned throw 00:11:34.659 --> 00:11:38.519 down from the crease do bowl downs so try and 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.259 link to bowl downs and you can do that off 18 00:11:41.259 --> 00:11:43.299 yards or whatever or if you're on with real lit 00:11:43.299 --> 00:11:46.059 ones do it off your knees but ralph middlebrook 00:11:46.059 --> 00:11:49.049 was lucky enough to jump bump into Ralph Middlebrook 00:11:49.049 --> 00:11:51.789 the day after my son was born and he said how 00:11:51.789 --> 00:11:53.289 are you doing Ian I said oh I just had a boy 00:11:53.289 --> 00:11:55.629 yesterday Ralph he said wonderful he said do 00:11:55.629 --> 00:11:57.690 me a favor Ian I said what's that Ralph he said 00:11:57.690 --> 00:12:01.029 bowl at him from day one he said he needs to 00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:05.980 link that to that Theoretically, he's absolutely 00:12:05.980 --> 00:12:08.960 right. So I've always tried to do bowl downs 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.799 as much as possible and practice in the middle. 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.759 So we were fortunate in New Zealand. And then 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.539 when we came to Brisbane, there was an artificial 00:12:17.539 --> 00:12:20.840 pitch at the club, the junior club that we played 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.559 at. And we'd just go down there. I'd set up pop 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:26.580 -up goals. I'd set up games. And we could see 00:12:26.580 --> 00:12:29.669 where the ball had gone then. And so in the nets, 00:12:29.769 --> 00:12:31.669 you don't know where it's gone. So you don't 00:12:31.669 --> 00:12:33.830 have feedback of how well you've hit it or whether 00:12:33.830 --> 00:12:36.149 you've missed the field or anything. So we just 00:12:36.149 --> 00:12:38.850 used to play hours and hours of games. I'd have 00:12:38.850 --> 00:12:43.450 about 70 balls. We'd hit all the balls in games, 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:45.110 you know, create little games. Then we'd collect 00:12:45.110 --> 00:12:47.409 them and we'd go again. So, you know, you're 00:12:47.409 --> 00:12:49.830 getting a lot of quality practice, which is that 00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:52.490 does it look and feel like the real thing? The 00:12:52.490 --> 00:12:55.309 little mantra that I have. for coaches to talk 00:12:55.309 --> 00:12:58.129 about and if it doesn't look and feel like the 00:12:58.129 --> 00:13:00.309 real thing why are we doing it in the terms of 00:13:00.309 --> 00:13:02.450 like the rowers used to talk will it make the 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:05.110 boat go faster the awesome foursome here used 00:13:05.110 --> 00:13:07.669 to say we're not doing it unless it makes the 00:13:07.669 --> 00:13:10.629 boat go faster so for me it's like will it lead 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:13.129 to a score in more runs will it lead us to taking 00:13:13.129 --> 00:13:14.889 more wickets if it's not going to do that why 00:13:14.889 --> 00:13:17.450 are we doing it ben hunt davis will be very pleased 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:19.470 with the plug of will it make the boat go faster 00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:24.009 that was the sydney 2000 GB mandate the big Australians 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:26.889 as I remember it you talk about a player -centered 00:13:26.889 --> 00:13:30.169 I mean you've mentioned it or alluded to it already 00:13:30.169 --> 00:13:32.970 here and certainly that's one of the key strands 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:35.669 in the book as well I mean player -centered is 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:38.690 something that's being talked a lot about isn't 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:41.409 it now and just sort of run us through where 00:13:41.409 --> 00:13:44.169 you think we are with that because Back when 00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.590 you did your advanced course at Lillishall in 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:49.690 the 1990s, I would argue, I don't think people 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:50.990 would have even understood what player -centred 00:13:50.990 --> 00:13:52.330 was. Actually, it wasn't really an expression 00:13:52.330 --> 00:13:54.549 out there, was it? And we've reached a point 00:13:54.549 --> 00:13:57.909 now where most coaches understand it, some apply 00:13:57.909 --> 00:14:00.950 it. But have we got to the perfect point, do 00:14:00.950 --> 00:14:02.610 you think? Or is there still a long way to go 00:14:02.610 --> 00:14:05.470 generally in cricket with a player -centred approach? 00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:08.809 I think some of the coaches are really on board 00:14:08.809 --> 00:14:11.570 with this idea that you need to individualise. 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.080 first of all the practice and you know what a 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.600 player needs is different and unique for each 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.730 player But also how to connect, how to build 00:14:19.730 --> 00:14:21.950 that relationship with them is unique as well. 00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:24.690 My co -author on the book is a guy called Stephen 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:28.289 Rolnick, who's based down in Cardiff. I was fortunate 00:14:28.289 --> 00:14:30.490 enough through a mutual friend to connect with 00:14:30.490 --> 00:14:34.570 him at a T20 in Bristol. And he said to me, I 00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:36.490 love your work, but I think you've got a problem. 00:14:36.629 --> 00:14:40.210 Oh, yeah. OK, what is it? He said, it's translating 00:14:40.210 --> 00:14:43.870 some of the dense theory into language that coaches 00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:47.789 can do. And I went, OK, yeah, I agree. it is 00:14:47.789 --> 00:14:49.769 a problem and he said i think i can help you 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:52.100 So I went away and looked him up. I didn't know 00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.460 Steve. Ridiculously, I didn't know who Steve 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:57.080 was. And he's obviously the world leader in motivational 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:59.940 interviewing. And this idea of you put the person 00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:03.100 first before the player. And it also came out 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:05.840 of health psychology and psychotherapies where 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.059 you're trying to help people with addictions, 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:12.159 with mental health issues. And this idea of telling 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.720 people was not working. It just doesn't work. 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.720 But if you work with them and you put them at 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.519 the center of the process, You individualise 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.919 it. It helps them change. The ideas have to be 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.679 there. They own those ideas then. So we talk 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.019 a lot about co -creating with players. So to 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:32.440 give you a perfect example, Joe Root's brother 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:34.799 Billy came out and stayed with us for a couple 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:37.360 of seasons to play club cricket. And I'd go to 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.779 work, I'd get home, and Bill goes, I've got a 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:42.340 game. I've got a game. Come on, let's go. So 00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:44.440 we'd go down the ground and we'd make another 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.259 game. Some of the little games in the book were 00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:50.200 designed by the players. not me necessarily or 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:51.980 you know he would come up with it and then we 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.580 go oh you can do that what about this so you 00:15:54.580 --> 00:15:57.580 you're working with the player to help them to 00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:00.639 work on what they need to work on and the point 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.919 of that is then it's also we try to be strengths 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.039 based and build on what you can do not what you 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.259 can't do so and there's a beautiful piece of 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.600 anybody on linkedin and follows andrew strauss 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.029 talking about that about how he was he got found 00:16:16.029 --> 00:16:18.710 out in test cricket after 18 months so they were 00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:21.549 getting him out driving so he went away work 00:16:21.549 --> 00:16:24.250 talked to his coach yes we need to work on improving 00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:27.309 your drives spent three months hitting millions 00:16:27.309 --> 00:16:30.190 of balls and then got out more hitting drives 00:16:30.190 --> 00:16:32.289 because he had to show that all that work was 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.629 worthwhile and he just said actually if i don't 00:16:35.629 --> 00:16:38.799 play it as much if i don't play it it doesn't 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.480 matter i can make a career based on my strengths 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.159 which were his cut and his pull you know and 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.039 and this is the the great thing mark borden who 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.240 was the england sports psychologist around that 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:51.820 time was very much into the strengths -based 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:56.259 approach i love the idea of you are a servant 00:16:56.259 --> 00:16:58.879 coach you're there for the player you are a resource 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.279 to help the player get better and that in the 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.920 end it's you put your ego away we work with the 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.480 player to help them become better and everything's 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.259 forward looking not backward looking really you 00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:13.440 mentioned steven and being a whiz kid when it 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.079 comes to language framed correctly getting the 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.819 making sure the message lands correctly and it 00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:21.119 is interesting that in the book you've there's 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.500 quite a bit about language and open questions 00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:25.720 which obviously lots of coaches are familiar 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.880 with but affirmation rather than praise was something 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.019 that caught my eye and and how to have these 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.000 conversations you talk about how to have the 00:17:34.089 --> 00:17:36.089 tough conversations you've obviously gone quite 00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:39.809 deep into making sure that communication is is 00:17:39.809 --> 00:17:42.890 addressed It's an essential part of coaching, 00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:45.670 the building the relationship. If you can't build 00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:48.650 a relationship with people, then no matter what 00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:51.069 approach you use to developing skill, it's not 00:17:51.069 --> 00:17:54.150 going to land. And I came across a paper by Sophia 00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:57.289 Jowett, who's at Loughborough Uni, done a lot 00:17:57.289 --> 00:18:00.490 on the coach -athlete relationship. And she did 00:18:00.490 --> 00:18:03.470 this remarkable paper that showed that the stronger 00:18:03.470 --> 00:18:07.390 the coach -player relationship, the more batters 00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:10.809 middle the ball. It's a remarkable study. You're 00:18:10.809 --> 00:18:15.210 going, oh, what a finding. Everybody said, oh, 00:18:15.210 --> 00:18:17.809 support people, they play better. Oh, yeah, of 00:18:17.809 --> 00:18:19.549 course they do. But where's your evidence? Here's 00:18:19.549 --> 00:18:22.009 the evidence. We found a similar thing with bowling. 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:25.430 So the bowlers who felt more psychological safety 00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:29.019 played better. So this way you have conversations 00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:32.180 with people is absolutely crucial. And in the 00:18:32.180 --> 00:18:34.480 book, we try and give some examples of that. 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:37.599 They're all genuine stories of players that we 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.380 work with. And then we model the conversation 00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:42.640 that the coach might have with them just to try 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:45.200 and give people an idea. And then obviously later 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:46.980 on in the book, we give some of the nuts and 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:49.440 bolts around motivational interviewing or around 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.119 that support. But I mean, the tough conversation 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.279 is one that drives me potty. Coaches... don't 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.480 like dropping people understandable we're here 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.779 to help people we find it incredibly hard a lot 00:19:02.779 --> 00:19:05.099 of coaches find it incredibly hard to drop somebody 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:07.759 i know it was fortunate when we're in dubai with 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.980 england lions that mo babat who was heavily involved 00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:13.700 at that time talked through the process that 00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:16.180 they've got when they do drop somebody you know 00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:18.240 they leave them out it's a follow -up they go 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.539 he goes to see them he meets them he talks to 00:19:20.539 --> 00:19:24.240 them and that's obviously good practice that's 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.220 what should happen but the number of stories 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:29.460 that you hear anecdotally where a player finds 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.200 out he's been dropped through the media or through 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:38.140 a text or the captain of his club team saying 00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:41.240 and are you playing tomorrow oh no no I'm going 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:47.519 away with x team no you're not I mean, it is 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.779 hard, but it shouldn't be hard. And I think processes 00:19:50.779 --> 00:19:53.559 have to be put in place to make sure that happens 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:55.660 as well. It's making it a priority, isn't it? 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.059 And making sure that it's done in a good way 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:01.000 and investing the time, I suppose. In the end, 00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:03.079 you don't want to be seen as a commodity, do 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:04.660 you? You want to be seen as something that's 00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:08.319 somebody who's valued and have an avenue to like, 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.779 what can I do to put this right? not just giving, 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.079 oh, go away, score more runs, or go away, take 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.940 more wickets. Okay, tell me more. And actually, 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.839 in this day and age, when so much is talked about 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.619 with mental health and wellness and well -being, 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.000 which you also touch on, and dealing with bumps 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.579 is another part of the book, it does all tie 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:29.259 into that, doesn't it? Because there's no great 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:32.019 player in the world who's gone through a career 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:34.339 without being dropped, so you've got to get that 00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:37.829 bit right. Yeah, and Stephen's... obviously the 00:20:37.829 --> 00:20:40.269 world expert on that he's he works with glamorgan 00:20:40.269 --> 00:20:43.529 he's just the wellness stuff around the morgan 00:20:43.529 --> 00:20:47.049 so that's you know a passion he's a he's a passionate 00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:50.289 cricket fan he it's in his you know world of 00:20:50.289 --> 00:20:53.569 working where he wants to work um but yeah i 00:20:53.569 --> 00:20:55.609 mean every player gets dropped so what can we 00:20:55.609 --> 00:20:58.309 do to try and help you get back is the problem 00:20:58.309 --> 00:21:01.470 but but also that ethical issue around playing 00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:04.750 injured And that old idea of you need to be mentally 00:21:04.750 --> 00:21:08.150 tough in inverted commas and play through injuries 00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:10.809 or somebody else will take your place. And that's 00:21:10.809 --> 00:21:13.890 still around, I think, in some respects. One 00:21:13.890 --> 00:21:15.509 other thing I wanted to touch on was being a 00:21:15.509 --> 00:21:18.190 parent and being a coach. And I'm fascinated 00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:21.009 by this, partly because my kids are now 13, 16, 00:21:21.130 --> 00:21:23.869 and I'm just at a stage where I probably need 00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:26.400 to. get other coaches working with them more 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.519 and me stepping away a bit but on the circuit 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:31.980 it seems that you're quite often the very worst 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.720 person to be formally coaching but then ultimately 00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:38.150 It's parents that produce players, not coaches, 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:40.849 is another expression that I sort of live and 00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:43.750 die by a bit. So just so people are aware of 00:21:43.750 --> 00:21:46.329 Matt Wrench or your son, the Australian left 00:21:46.329 --> 00:21:48.250 -hand batter who a lot of people will be familiar 00:21:48.250 --> 00:21:51.650 with. So you've obviously got this right, but 00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:54.509 it's not an easy one, is it? How do you stand 00:21:54.509 --> 00:21:57.369 on... whether everything in dynamic coaching 00:21:57.369 --> 00:21:59.869 should be applied by a parent or whether it's 00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:02.009 a completely different relationship. I mean, 00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:04.650 in the end, the advantage you've got as a parent 00:22:04.650 --> 00:22:07.670 is that you will go and bowl at him for two hours, 00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:10.470 three times a week or four times a week, and 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:13.009 you take him to all the games. If you don't have 00:22:13.009 --> 00:22:15.619 somebody who can do that. you're going to be 00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:17.880 limited in terms of how good you can be i think 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:21.240 unless you you're playing a lot of games all 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.440 the time and the days of kids going out and playing 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.859 with their mates and playing on the park or in 00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:28.980 the street seem to have gone and that was one 00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:31.680 of our calls in the in the book is the spirit 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:34.539 of the whole dynamic coaching is the backyard 00:22:34.539 --> 00:22:37.119 game i was in bangladesh last week working with 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:39.259 a bangladeshi cricket board and the guy running 00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:42.549 the course sharia His son's 18 now. And his first 00:22:42.549 --> 00:22:45.730 question to Ash Ross, whose son Alex plays Big 00:22:45.730 --> 00:22:49.190 Bash well, was, how do you coach your son? How 00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:51.730 do you coach your son? Certainly not easy at 00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:53.829 times. It's interesting around your question 00:22:53.829 --> 00:22:56.710 around affirmation and praise. I used to get 00:22:56.710 --> 00:22:58.910 told off by my wife by not giving enough praise. 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:01.049 But I'm going, he knows whether he's done it 00:23:01.049 --> 00:23:03.369 right or not. You can see because our games tell 00:23:03.369 --> 00:23:05.809 you whether you've got it right or not. So I 00:23:05.809 --> 00:23:07.490 didn't. I probably should have praised more, 00:23:07.650 --> 00:23:12.750 but I got told off anyway. But I just made it 00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:15.829 very clear to him, like a 12 -year -old, he had 00:23:15.829 --> 00:23:18.509 some talent. It was clearly he had some talent. 00:23:19.009 --> 00:23:21.170 And I just said, well, he played for Queensland, 00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:24.970 primary school's team, came back, said, what 00:23:24.970 --> 00:23:26.789 do you want to do? What do you want to do with 00:23:26.789 --> 00:23:28.150 your cricket? He said, I want to play international 00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:31.410 cricket. I said, OK, well, if that's your goal. 00:23:31.769 --> 00:23:33.970 we'll go for it you know i'll help you go for 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:36.569 it at any point in time you don't want to just 00:23:36.569 --> 00:23:39.690 stop just tell me we won't go and times i'd go 00:23:39.690 --> 00:23:41.950 down to training and i'd take a look at him and 00:23:41.950 --> 00:23:44.269 go come on we're going home you're not mentally 00:23:44.269 --> 00:23:46.069 here there's no point going through with this 00:23:46.069 --> 00:23:48.869 again wasn't often but you know you've got to 00:23:48.869 --> 00:23:51.589 you know him better than most people i find it 00:23:51.589 --> 00:23:53.369 very hard because i could see what he would do 00:23:53.369 --> 00:23:56.329 in games in training and then when he didn't 00:23:56.329 --> 00:24:00.940 do that in a game i'm going But you can do. So 00:24:00.940 --> 00:24:03.519 I had to learn to take a step back. And obviously, 00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:05.519 I think the interesting thing when he got to 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.500 play first class cricket, when he got picked 00:24:08.500 --> 00:24:12.279 up for Queensland at 18, debuted at 18, I think 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.380 he hit less balls when he got onto the Queensland 00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:18.200 stuff than he did with me. And I think that was 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.700 a challenge. So how do you keep hitting? number 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:24.960 of quality balls when they've got to look after 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.579 20 people or whatever there's still a place for 00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:32.119 it they're in control when as long as they see 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.519 value in you helping then great if they don't 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:39.640 step away let the pros take over as it were interesting 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:43.279 area because with the coaching hat on you wonder 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:46.240 whether sometimes the work you do during a session 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.670 gets unpicked in a conversation in the car on 00:24:49.670 --> 00:24:51.490 the way home from the session with the parents. 00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:55.049 And equally as a parent, you wonder whether you 00:24:55.049 --> 00:24:56.990 should be stepping away and leaving it to the 00:24:56.990 --> 00:24:59.710 pros, as you say. I'm sure it does. I mean, a 00:24:59.710 --> 00:25:03.309 friend of mine is a guy called Brian Hain, who 00:25:03.309 --> 00:25:06.210 is the director of sport at Southport School, 00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:09.569 where Sam Hain went to school. So Sam's a year 00:25:09.569 --> 00:25:12.150 above Matthew. And he said he watched Sam once. 00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:15.009 He played a game and then they finished the game. 00:25:15.089 --> 00:25:17.410 The coach got around and talked to them for 20 00:25:17.410 --> 00:25:19.690 minutes. minutes and you can see the kids you 00:25:19.690 --> 00:25:22.769 know gone off with this and then he got in the 00:25:22.769 --> 00:25:24.869 car and said what did he say then he said no 00:25:24.869 --> 00:25:28.769 idea I had a really interesting conversation 00:25:28.769 --> 00:25:31.250 with Matthew about this actually when we were 00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:33.009 talking about do you need to be told what you're 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:36.990 doing wrong to put it right and I'm going I could 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:39.450 watch what you needed to work on from watching 00:25:39.450 --> 00:25:42.609 you in the game and then I would design the game 00:25:42.609 --> 00:25:45.289 or design the activity to help you overcome that 00:25:45.819 --> 00:25:48.180 the next during the next week or whatever so 00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:49.940 i never told you what you were doing wrong you 00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:53.079 went no you didn't but i designed the activity 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:56.039 to rather make an explicit as well so because 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:58.849 we want people to play without getting all of 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:01.650 them up on their own paralysis by analysis or 00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:03.730 whatever you want to call it you need to give 00:26:03.730 --> 00:26:06.970 them that freedom to explore and to find solutions 00:26:06.970 --> 00:26:09.210 and that's the whole key behind the approach 00:26:09.210 --> 00:26:12.349 in the in the book is discover and explore which 00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:15.589 is again that individualization is there isn't 00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:18.250 one perfect cover drive there isn't one perfect 00:26:18.250 --> 00:26:21.849 outswing it each player will find their way of 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:25.029 solving this problem and your job as a coach 00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:28.140 is to be a problem creator rather than a problem 00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:31.000 solver for the player i listened to a beautiful 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.579 podcast the other day so i'd never i think it 00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:36.240 was rusty and shaw and danny new coming out on 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:39.619 a podcast so i don't want to steal your struggle 00:26:39.619 --> 00:26:43.220 i thought what a beautiful idea but it doesn't 00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:46.119 mean that doesn't mean create trauma That really 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:48.900 isn't what it's about. You know, people, as you 00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:51.240 say, people go through enough failure in cricket 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:54.460 that they don't need to be, we don't need trauma 00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:57.700 to be promoted. You don't need another layer 00:26:57.700 --> 00:26:59.740 from the coach, that's for sure. Well, look, 00:26:59.779 --> 00:27:01.460 it's been fascinating talking to you. And are 00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:03.640 you out in Brisbane for the next few months? 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:06.500 We'll be eyes on the Gabba, obviously, at the 00:27:06.500 --> 00:27:09.740 start of December. Yeah, we'll be here all summer, 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:13.970 following England or Australia. Yeah, that's 00:27:13.970 --> 00:27:18.500 your allegiance to England, is it? Anybody listening? 00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.279 I won't push you on that one. That's probably 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:23.759 the most difficult question I've asked you in 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:26.259 the last half hour. Yeah, a day -night test at 00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:28.099 the start of December will be interesting out 00:27:28.099 --> 00:27:31.400 in Brisbane. I hope that will be enjoyable. Might 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:33.420 not be five days. We'll wait and see on that 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:35.680 one. Thank you so much, Ian. Good luck with all 00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:37.920 your various projects and your coaching. It's 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.220 been fascinating. So, dynamic coaching, a playbook 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:43.059 for cricket coaches, yourself, Ian Renshaw, Stephen 00:27:43.059 --> 00:27:45.809 Rollnick as well, and well worth a read. because 00:27:45.809 --> 00:27:48.230 it does cover so much of what we're all about. 00:27:48.329 --> 00:27:51.430 Thank you, Ian. Great to catch up and enjoy the 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:53.990 spring and summer out in Brisbane. Thank you, 00:27:53.990 --> 00:27:56.869 Tim. Thanks for having me on. Coaching guru Ian 00:27:56.869 --> 00:27:59.289 Renshaw. Thanks to him for sharing his thoughts 00:27:59.289 --> 00:28:01.910 with The icoachcricket Podcast. I hope you enjoyed 00:28:01.910 --> 00:28:03.589 the episode and thanks for listening.