Welcome to The icoachcricket Podcast. The Ashes
is just around the corner and it'll be all eyes
on what's happening in Australia. The second
test is in Brisbane, which is where coach Ian
Renshaw is based. The Englishman, who's Australia
and Somerset left -handed batter Matthew Renshaw's
dad, is a real authority on coaching, having
spent a 40 -year career working as a PE teacher
and researching coaching at universities around
the world. He's just brought out a book, and
with the ashes happening in his backyard over
the next few months, it seemed a good time for
Tim to have a chat with him. what does liam plunkett's
former babysitter do out in brisbane how did
that all work out uh yeah that's that's an interesting
one liam played into the school that i i taught
at although i'd left by the time he arrived at
the school but we knew the family alan was dad
was a six foot four medium pacer really but he
just got me out for fun and we obviously knew
the plunkets and they asked allison to to sort
of do some mass tutoring um for Liam's older
sister and then when Liam came through he he
sponsored some maths tutoring as well I was actually
doing a MSc in coaching studies up in Moray House
in Edinburgh at the time on a Monday used to
come so while I was away he'd come around he'd
come come on his bike with his cricket bat leave
the bike outside take the bat in and my son was
only a little at the time and he'd come looking
down the stairs see the cricket bat and all Liam
wanted to do was talk cricket which was you know
obviously his future. Matt captained Cricket
Australia 11 and it was a one dayer against Australia
and Liam was playing in the game and got Matthew
out and as he's walking off Johnny Bairstow said
fancy getting out to your babysitter you know
lovely lovely not sure quite some quite appreciated
at the time Yeah, small world, isn't that? Small
world. You never know how you're going to cross
paths with people in years to come. I've obviously
got your book in front of me, Dynamic Coaching,
a playbook for cricket coaches. Actually, it
must have been a bit of a labour of love, this,
I guess. It reads like you've really enjoyed
writing it and it's almost a cathartic experience
getting a lot off your chest, I reckon. Yeah,
I've been involved in coaching since I was about
18, really. I think when you, there weren't any
coaches there in club cricket, was there? Well,
there were if you played at the county and you
went for nets and trials and things. So I started
my journey at Nottinghamshire and Trent Bridge
as a 15 year old. My English teacher took us
down. I got through the second trial, but wasn't
really playing much cricket at that time. And
then got massively hooked and then just decided
I wanted to learn everything I could about batting.
And I was a dreadful leg spin bowler or an off
spin bowler, whatever, at that time. And eventually
got good enough to play. a couple of second 11
games for knots played at trent bridge which
was lovely of course and then went to uni really
and wasn't wasn't good enough as a player so
then started coaching did all my badges up at
carnegie as it was then with the great ralph
middlebrook if people will know in coaching terms
in in the northeast or up in yorkshire and then
went to teach in in middlesbrough i've always
coached When you have kids, of course, you end
up coaching them. We were in New Zealand watching
the Pairs cricket, the quick cricket in England,
wasn't it? Or Milo, I think, in New Zealand,
working out that this wasn't really going to
make anybody a good player. You get 12 balls
to bat and bowl. And I always said, like, what
did Matthew become good at during that? Well,
cartwheeling, because in the field he was bored.
So we'd just go up and I'd make games up. So
I'd make games up, we'd play. Loads and loads
of games would be there forever because he wanted
to be, not because I was trying to push him or
anything. And the book sort of came out of that
and then coaching some club teams, some other
junior teams, grade teams. And it sort of emerged
into this whole collection of games. The whole
approach to it was games because my day job was
skill acquisition lecturer at university. I came
across this new way of, it's still not been,
still classed as a new way, but it's now 40 years
old, a constraint -led approach through my mentor
and Professor Keith Davids, who's still at Sheppard
Hallam, incredibly influential in this area.
And then started to mesh the two ideas together
and then was fortunate enough to do my PhD in
cricket, which was great fun, where we looked
at... perception and action the importance of
the perceptual information in determining the
action so we looked at bowling machines versus
bowlers and looked at what happened to the technique
if you took all the the visual information away
from the bowler and of course that changed technique
you get a bowling machine technique as you've
probably seen as most people will have seen and
then also some stuff around run -ups of what
happens if you take the umpire away i remember
collecting that data at north ants and peter
willie was on the ground with his son david i
think a real youngster at that time husk was
playing as the overseas swanny was there so that
that's where i collected the data from that and
again we just showed that if you take the umpire
away it changes the run -ups it changes people's
run -ups so yeah so so now drives me potty i've
seen people coaching or going in the nets without
an umpire present and people are bowling no balls
because the umpire gives them a visual reference
does it need to be an umpire or could it just
be a dustbin or something i think you know like
depends how like the dustbin is but some umpires
are not not spelled are they but yeah ashley
ross is a friend um tells a story of going to
india with a new zealand team and all their training
was with a camera place where the umpire wanted
yeah a tripod and they wanted accountability
so they wanted to be able to record what was
doing and he talked about not having one no ball
on the whole tour so you're probably right it
doesn't have to be an umpire but it needs to
be something it's interesting i was a dreadful
baller one year i was captain at middlesbrough
and we'd lost the game by a mile but they needed
20 odd off one over so i decided to have a ball
and bolt some dreadful leg spin and as i ran
into ball i found i couldn't get to the crease
because the umpire was where i would have run
through on crikey i can't go there so it just
shows the importance of designing the environments
that you that you work with so the theory sort
of meshed with the practice. And there's a lot
of the games and the ideas in the book came out
of that joint meshing, basically. I'm going to
jump on the bowling machine issue as well, because
there'll be people listening going, well, is
there ever a place for a bowling machine? Because
as you say, you can't pick up any of the signals,
can you? You can't get any of the information
that you would typically get when a bowler's
releasing. But then there is an argument that
for grooving at certain times maybe it does help
shaping a shot do you think there's ever a ever
a moment where a bowling machine's the answer
the short answer yes there is a place but it
has to be understanding what you're losing and
the purpose of doing it and that that idea of
trying to do the same skill over and over again
to perfect it is is a fallacy a lot of the research
has shown that if you do that it doesn't work
as well as mixing things up so i would say if
you're going to use a bowling machine slow it
down it's really important because it's faster
And when we did the study, which should make
it clear, we used a bowler bowling machine and
we adjusted the length so they didn't know what
length was coming. So when you don't know what
length is coming, you have to wait and see more
of the early ball flight before you can make
your decision to go back or forward. So that
shortens your time interval, which means that
people just plonk their front foot and throw
the bat forward. And that's what we showed in
the study. And you see that all the time. But
I say if you're going to use it, slow it down.
It's not for developing pace at all. and mix
up where you stand. If you haven't got a machine
where you can make adjustments, then change your
position on the crease each time. So if you're
working on drives, and I don't like to call them,
you know, off drive, on drive, cover drive, just
call them vertical bat shots. If you're working
on your vertical bat shots, just keep moving
yourself around. You know, you can do the whole
lot. pick off your toe you can do the extra cover
dry etc etc or similarly if you're off the back
foot but one of the things against short pitch
bowling i think they're very useful because it's
hard to simulate that bowlers you're just not
going to get bowlers who are going to be able
to do that so if you put it in with a short ball
it seems to mimic for me there's some eye tracking
studies that have been done in cricket which
show that on the short ball you your eyes move
to the bounce point of the ball and then you
track it after that so i think as soon as you
see the ball coming out at a steep angle and
you know it's short then it's a bit more like
it nobody's ever done that study so i can't prove
that I often use use that for back foot practice
but again don't just practice one shot or divide
the outfield into eight zones and you're going
to go I'm going to go fine I'm going to go behind
square I'm going to go in front of square I'm
going to go over mid wicket go up and over for
six then go down you know and mix it up that
way and then of course do the same on the other
side but one thing I would say is if you're working
on the short ball the key to that is one ball
out of every four five six must be a full ball
Because you've still got to be looking for the
full ball. Because that's the earliest point
of release. So if you're not looking for the
full ball, you're sat on the back foot just waiting.
You're not going to then replicate the coordinates
and the movement patterns that you're going to
get in a game. So watch Ponting when he pulls.
He's looking for the full ball. He pushes forward
and he pushes back and then goes bang. And the
top players all have that hovering of looking
for the full ball. And if you're working on drives,
occasionally one's got to go up your nose. as
well so just to keep them honest keep you honest
yeah actually reading your book the dynamic coaching
book quite a lot of the premise is about making
it real i don't know if that's almost the expression
to use it so game scenarios decision making a
lot of it is based on that and i suppose that
is with the boring machine is very much not real
a dog stick you know the side arms that's a step
in the right direction but ultimately it's a
bowler isn't it that's that's the most real yeah
I mean I haven't I've wanted to do that research
for on the dog stick for five six years doing
a level three for cricket Australia a few years
ago and we were talking about what would you
rate it in terms of some of the practice tasks
out of 10 and that's one of the tasks in the
book and we talked about the dog stick and Tim
Payne was in the Australian team, he talked to
Greg Chappell about using the dog stick. And
he said, and it felt as though his timing was
out and he was stuffing him up. And Greg said,
don't do it. Don't use it anymore. And he went
away from it. And that's when his batting just
took off. Now, obviously, whether that's coincidence
or not, the timing, the coordination from the
stick is not like a bowler again. So there's
an extra joint in there, isn't there? and then
the height is also different so i mean i i talk
about with youngsters he's trying rather than
doing throw downs like the old -fashioned throw
down from the crease do bowl downs so try and
link to bowl downs and you can do that off 18
yards or whatever or if you're on with real lit
ones do it off your knees but ralph middlebrook
was lucky enough to jump bump into Ralph Middlebrook
the day after my son was born and he said how
are you doing Ian I said oh I just had a boy
yesterday Ralph he said wonderful he said do
me a favor Ian I said what's that Ralph he said
bowl at him from day one he said he needs to
link that to that Theoretically, he's absolutely
right. So I've always tried to do bowl downs
as much as possible and practice in the middle.
So we were fortunate in New Zealand. And then
when we came to Brisbane, there was an artificial
pitch at the club, the junior club that we played
at. And we'd just go down there. I'd set up pop
-up goals. I'd set up games. And we could see
where the ball had gone then. And so in the nets,
you don't know where it's gone. So you don't
have feedback of how well you've hit it or whether
you've missed the field or anything. So we just
used to play hours and hours of games. I'd have
about 70 balls. We'd hit all the balls in games,
you know, create little games. Then we'd collect
them and we'd go again. So, you know, you're
getting a lot of quality practice, which is that
does it look and feel like the real thing? The
little mantra that I have. for coaches to talk
about and if it doesn't look and feel like the
real thing why are we doing it in the terms of
like the rowers used to talk will it make the
boat go faster the awesome foursome here used
to say we're not doing it unless it makes the
boat go faster so for me it's like will it lead
to a score in more runs will it lead us to taking
more wickets if it's not going to do that why
are we doing it ben hunt davis will be very pleased
with the plug of will it make the boat go faster
that was the sydney 2000 GB mandate the big Australians
as I remember it you talk about a player -centered
I mean you've mentioned it or alluded to it already
here and certainly that's one of the key strands
in the book as well I mean player -centered is
something that's being talked a lot about isn't
it now and just sort of run us through where
you think we are with that because Back when
you did your advanced course at Lillishall in
the 1990s, I would argue, I don't think people
would have even understood what player -centred
was. Actually, it wasn't really an expression
out there, was it? And we've reached a point
now where most coaches understand it, some apply
it. But have we got to the perfect point, do
you think? Or is there still a long way to go
generally in cricket with a player -centred approach?
I think some of the coaches are really on board
with this idea that you need to individualise.
first of all the practice and you know what a
player needs is different and unique for each
player But also how to connect, how to build
that relationship with them is unique as well.
My co -author on the book is a guy called Stephen
Rolnick, who's based down in Cardiff. I was fortunate
enough through a mutual friend to connect with
him at a T20 in Bristol. And he said to me, I
love your work, but I think you've got a problem.
Oh, yeah. OK, what is it? He said, it's translating
some of the dense theory into language that coaches
can do. And I went, OK, yeah, I agree. it is
a problem and he said i think i can help you
So I went away and looked him up. I didn't know
Steve. Ridiculously, I didn't know who Steve
was. And he's obviously the world leader in motivational
interviewing. And this idea of you put the person
first before the player. And it also came out
of health psychology and psychotherapies where
you're trying to help people with addictions,
with mental health issues. And this idea of telling
people was not working. It just doesn't work.
But if you work with them and you put them at
the center of the process, You individualise
it. It helps them change. The ideas have to be
there. They own those ideas then. So we talk
a lot about co -creating with players. So to
give you a perfect example, Joe Root's brother
Billy came out and stayed with us for a couple
of seasons to play club cricket. And I'd go to
work, I'd get home, and Bill goes, I've got a
game. I've got a game. Come on, let's go. So
we'd go down the ground and we'd make another
game. Some of the little games in the book were
designed by the players. not me necessarily or
you know he would come up with it and then we
go oh you can do that what about this so you
you're working with the player to help them to
work on what they need to work on and the point
of that is then it's also we try to be strengths
based and build on what you can do not what you
can't do so and there's a beautiful piece of
anybody on linkedin and follows andrew strauss
talking about that about how he was he got found
out in test cricket after 18 months so they were
getting him out driving so he went away work
talked to his coach yes we need to work on improving
your drives spent three months hitting millions
of balls and then got out more hitting drives
because he had to show that all that work was
worthwhile and he just said actually if i don't
play it as much if i don't play it it doesn't
matter i can make a career based on my strengths
which were his cut and his pull you know and
and this is the the great thing mark borden who
was the england sports psychologist around that
time was very much into the strengths -based
approach i love the idea of you are a servant
coach you're there for the player you are a resource
to help the player get better and that in the
end it's you put your ego away we work with the
player to help them become better and everything's
forward looking not backward looking really you
mentioned steven and being a whiz kid when it
comes to language framed correctly getting the
making sure the message lands correctly and it
is interesting that in the book you've there's
quite a bit about language and open questions
which obviously lots of coaches are familiar
with but affirmation rather than praise was something
that caught my eye and and how to have these
conversations you talk about how to have the
tough conversations you've obviously gone quite
deep into making sure that communication is is
addressed It's an essential part of coaching,
the building the relationship. If you can't build
a relationship with people, then no matter what
approach you use to developing skill, it's not
going to land. And I came across a paper by Sophia
Jowett, who's at Loughborough Uni, done a lot
on the coach -athlete relationship. And she did
this remarkable paper that showed that the stronger
the coach -player relationship, the more batters
middle the ball. It's a remarkable study. You're
going, oh, what a finding. Everybody said, oh,
support people, they play better. Oh, yeah, of
course they do. But where's your evidence? Here's
the evidence. We found a similar thing with bowling.
So the bowlers who felt more psychological safety
played better. So this way you have conversations
with people is absolutely crucial. And in the
book, we try and give some examples of that.
They're all genuine stories of players that we
work with. And then we model the conversation
that the coach might have with them just to try
and give people an idea. And then obviously later
on in the book, we give some of the nuts and
bolts around motivational interviewing or around
that support. But I mean, the tough conversation
is one that drives me potty. Coaches... don't
like dropping people understandable we're here
to help people we find it incredibly hard a lot
of coaches find it incredibly hard to drop somebody
i know it was fortunate when we're in dubai with
england lions that mo babat who was heavily involved
at that time talked through the process that
they've got when they do drop somebody you know
they leave them out it's a follow -up they go
he goes to see them he meets them he talks to
them and that's obviously good practice that's
what should happen but the number of stories
that you hear anecdotally where a player finds
out he's been dropped through the media or through
a text or the captain of his club team saying
and are you playing tomorrow oh no no I'm going
away with x team no you're not I mean, it is
hard, but it shouldn't be hard. And I think processes
have to be put in place to make sure that happens
as well. It's making it a priority, isn't it?
And making sure that it's done in a good way
and investing the time, I suppose. In the end,
you don't want to be seen as a commodity, do
you? You want to be seen as something that's
somebody who's valued and have an avenue to like,
what can I do to put this right? not just giving,
oh, go away, score more runs, or go away, take
more wickets. Okay, tell me more. And actually,
in this day and age, when so much is talked about
with mental health and wellness and well -being,
which you also touch on, and dealing with bumps
is another part of the book, it does all tie
into that, doesn't it? Because there's no great
player in the world who's gone through a career
without being dropped, so you've got to get that
bit right. Yeah, and Stephen's... obviously the
world expert on that he's he works with glamorgan
he's just the wellness stuff around the morgan
so that's you know a passion he's a he's a passionate
cricket fan he it's in his you know world of
working where he wants to work um but yeah i
mean every player gets dropped so what can we
do to try and help you get back is the problem
but but also that ethical issue around playing
injured And that old idea of you need to be mentally
tough in inverted commas and play through injuries
or somebody else will take your place. And that's
still around, I think, in some respects. One
other thing I wanted to touch on was being a
parent and being a coach. And I'm fascinated
by this, partly because my kids are now 13, 16,
and I'm just at a stage where I probably need
to. get other coaches working with them more
and me stepping away a bit but on the circuit
it seems that you're quite often the very worst
person to be formally coaching but then ultimately
It's parents that produce players, not coaches,
is another expression that I sort of live and
die by a bit. So just so people are aware of
Matt Wrench or your son, the Australian left
-hand batter who a lot of people will be familiar
with. So you've obviously got this right, but
it's not an easy one, is it? How do you stand
on... whether everything in dynamic coaching
should be applied by a parent or whether it's
a completely different relationship. I mean,
in the end, the advantage you've got as a parent
is that you will go and bowl at him for two hours,
three times a week or four times a week, and
you take him to all the games. If you don't have
somebody who can do that. you're going to be
limited in terms of how good you can be i think
unless you you're playing a lot of games all
the time and the days of kids going out and playing
with their mates and playing on the park or in
the street seem to have gone and that was one
of our calls in the in the book is the spirit
of the whole dynamic coaching is the backyard
game i was in bangladesh last week working with
a bangladeshi cricket board and the guy running
the course sharia His son's 18 now. And his first
question to Ash Ross, whose son Alex plays Big
Bash well, was, how do you coach your son? How
do you coach your son? Certainly not easy at
times. It's interesting around your question
around affirmation and praise. I used to get
told off by my wife by not giving enough praise.
But I'm going, he knows whether he's done it
right or not. You can see because our games tell
you whether you've got it right or not. So I
didn't. I probably should have praised more,
but I got told off anyway. But I just made it
very clear to him, like a 12 -year -old, he had
some talent. It was clearly he had some talent.
And I just said, well, he played for Queensland,
primary school's team, came back, said, what
do you want to do? What do you want to do with
your cricket? He said, I want to play international
cricket. I said, OK, well, if that's your goal.
we'll go for it you know i'll help you go for
it at any point in time you don't want to just
stop just tell me we won't go and times i'd go
down to training and i'd take a look at him and
go come on we're going home you're not mentally
here there's no point going through with this
again wasn't often but you know you've got to
you know him better than most people i find it
very hard because i could see what he would do
in games in training and then when he didn't
do that in a game i'm going But you can do. So
I had to learn to take a step back. And obviously,
I think the interesting thing when he got to
play first class cricket, when he got picked
up for Queensland at 18, debuted at 18, I think
he hit less balls when he got onto the Queensland
stuff than he did with me. And I think that was
a challenge. So how do you keep hitting? number
of quality balls when they've got to look after
20 people or whatever there's still a place for
it they're in control when as long as they see
value in you helping then great if they don't
step away let the pros take over as it were interesting
area because with the coaching hat on you wonder
whether sometimes the work you do during a session
gets unpicked in a conversation in the car on
the way home from the session with the parents.
And equally as a parent, you wonder whether you
should be stepping away and leaving it to the
pros, as you say. I'm sure it does. I mean, a
friend of mine is a guy called Brian Hain, who
is the director of sport at Southport School,
where Sam Hain went to school. So Sam's a year
above Matthew. And he said he watched Sam once.
He played a game and then they finished the game.
The coach got around and talked to them for 20
minutes. minutes and you can see the kids you
know gone off with this and then he got in the
car and said what did he say then he said no
idea I had a really interesting conversation
with Matthew about this actually when we were
talking about do you need to be told what you're
doing wrong to put it right and I'm going I could
watch what you needed to work on from watching
you in the game and then I would design the game
or design the activity to help you overcome that
the next during the next week or whatever so
i never told you what you were doing wrong you
went no you didn't but i designed the activity
to rather make an explicit as well so because
we want people to play without getting all of
them up on their own paralysis by analysis or
whatever you want to call it you need to give
them that freedom to explore and to find solutions
and that's the whole key behind the approach
in the in the book is discover and explore which
is again that individualization is there isn't
one perfect cover drive there isn't one perfect
outswing it each player will find their way of
solving this problem and your job as a coach
is to be a problem creator rather than a problem
solver for the player i listened to a beautiful
podcast the other day so i'd never i think it
was rusty and shaw and danny new coming out on
a podcast so i don't want to steal your struggle
i thought what a beautiful idea but it doesn't
mean that doesn't mean create trauma That really
isn't what it's about. You know, people, as you
say, people go through enough failure in cricket
that they don't need to be, we don't need trauma
to be promoted. You don't need another layer
from the coach, that's for sure. Well, look,
it's been fascinating talking to you. And are
you out in Brisbane for the next few months?
We'll be eyes on the Gabba, obviously, at the
start of December. Yeah, we'll be here all summer,
following England or Australia. Yeah, that's
your allegiance to England, is it? Anybody listening?
I won't push you on that one. That's probably
the most difficult question I've asked you in
the last half hour. Yeah, a day -night test at
the start of December will be interesting out
in Brisbane. I hope that will be enjoyable. Might
not be five days. We'll wait and see on that
one. Thank you so much, Ian. Good luck with all
your various projects and your coaching. It's
been fascinating. So, dynamic coaching, a playbook
for cricket coaches, yourself, Ian Renshaw, Stephen
Rollnick as well, and well worth a read. because
it does cover so much of what we're all about.
Thank you, Ian. Great to catch up and enjoy the
spring and summer out in Brisbane. Thank you,
Tim. Thanks for having me on. Coaching guru Ian
Renshaw. Thanks to him for sharing his thoughts
with The icoachcricket Podcast. I hope you enjoyed
the episode and thanks for listening.