Thank you. In this episode of The icoachcricket
Podcast, it's all about communication, the importance
of listening and observation skills. Martin Dighton
is a coach educator at UK Coaching and has worked
for the FA. He's still very involved in football
coaching up and down the development pathway.
He helps coaches sharpen their skills in a wide
range of different sports. He and Tim met up
at a non -sporting venue to talk coaching. And
we're bringing the average age down in a garden.
centre cafe which is a great venue to meet yeah
this is this is a real world venue isn't it we've
got the sun outside blue sky could be worse couldn't
it right the first question i was going to ask
you in your view of the world what makes a good
coach i'm glad you gave me a little heads up
thanks i've had a little bit of thinking time
the bit i came back to and this might be ironic
that i'm recording the podcast doing it in my
experience a good coach is someone who listens
more than they talk yes good so lots about questioning
lots about body language lots about being receptive
and trying to so yeah why is listening so important
because that is definitely a key part of it the
word i'd pick up what you just said there is
receptive i think the best coaches are responsive
receptive responsive to what they see in front
of them i think traditionally and certainly in
my experiences early on as a coach we're taught
have a session plan follow your plan at minute
six do this and at minute 25 do this all very
structured very very structured i think it took
me time to realize that's not coaching that's
not coaching that's just following plan coaching
is about reading the room reading the environment
reading the setup reading the players athletes
participate whatever they're called in your context
and realizing that it's me that does the flexing
i'm the one that does the adapting and i think
we can only do that if we really tune in to what's
going on and again in my experience so many coaches
are at the front and are leading and are the
ones making all the noise and the ones doing
all the telling but the best coaches don't do
that the best coaches are amongst the environment
they're part of the environment because they're
in tune with what's going on So what I'm hearing
there, you get that? Listening is actually very
broad, isn't it? So being receptive is more than
just hearing and listening to the words spoken.
And you talked about reading the room, which
is a real skill, isn't it? Pick up on mood, pick
up on unsaid things. It's noticing body language.
It's noticing, it's hard to put, it's almost
the feel. It's recognising when one of the players,
players in my context, players just isn't. quite
where they normally are so it's not quite there
or that could be higher or lower you know they
might be a little down a little quieter today
they might be a little louder and a bit higher
but if again if we're constantly the one doing
all the talking and doing all the one leading
we don't have capacity to notice these sort of
things and things are subtle as who they're sitting
next to in a changing room on the bus at lunch
what sort of mood they're in how they're dragging
their bag into the changing room at the start
if they're turning up late any number of things
can give you clues i suppose but it's very hard
so you're coach developer as well as a coach
is that innate there's a coach or do you over
time your antenna picks up more you can become
sharper with time experience i think there's
probably a couple of things i think there's a
wider bit around how we train coaches and what
good coaching is perceived to look like so if
you google cartoon coach you get a picture of
somebody with a whistle and a clipboard yeah
and i'm not sure that's what coaching is so i
think there's a there's a like almost like a
popular culture of what coaching is i think he's
challenging and the other bit is i think we've
just got to be realistic we're at a garden center
right so around the corner here there's a there's
a i imagine some sort of cook or chef right are
they following a recipe or are they creating
things i think there's an analogy that we can
take to coaching there when you're early on in
your coaching experience you want things to hold
on to you want a recipe you want a session plan
to follow i think it takes time to realize that
it's more than that but also just have the capacity
to go i'm going to put the session plan down
today and i'm just going to focus on the people
in front of me so i think that's hard i think
there's a couple of bits there's time that it
certainly takes and experience but also we need
to redefine what coaching is and great coaches
have presumably always done exactly what you've
just described there nothing's really changed
you go back let's talk in football terms and
Brian Clough is an obvious example, but South
Ramsey, and maybe even before that, presumably
they had all these skills tenfold. They must
have been really high -level operators in these
areas, but maybe now we're just better at defining
it and describing what they do. I don't know,
because I don't think we describe coaching in
those terms. 20 or 30 years ago, didn't we? When
I asked the question, what makes a good coach,
that would have been quite an unusual answer
in the 1990s, I suspect. I think if we went back
a few years, you'd get things like highly organised.
Yeah. Good level technical skills. Technical's
always in there. Tech -tech, whatever sport you
go to, it's the secret sauce. Especially cricket.
Yeah. But yeah, I think now we're starting to
recognise it's a relationship game. I mean, look
at where the research is going around this stuff.
Sophia Jowett's work, I'd happily quote, it's
a relationship that we're forming here. And you
don't get to build relationships if you don't
tune in to the other person. So whether you're
coaching one -to -one or whether you're coaching
a group, the skill set is still the same. There's
a Craig Morris, a canoe slalom coach, just come
back from the Olympics, and he talks about, I
don't plan sessions anymore. I prepare for sessions.
So I prepare, I go with possibilities. I consider
what might happen so that when things do, I'm
half ready to adapt, but I don't go with a plan.
I like that. That's quite nice, isn't it? Yeah,
so it's then going to be athlete -led and circumstance
-led and we'll be flexible enough to be entirely
appropriate for that moment. I love the bit around
athlete -led and it's something that's gained
a bit of traction recently and over the last
couple of years and I still don't think we've
really defined what we mean. Often athlete -led
simply means, oh, I gave them a choice. I asked
an open question. They offer the coach. Yeah,
like maybe we need to go person -led. They're
people, not athletes at first off. And actually,
it's about tuning in again. I'm going to use
that word over and over, tuning in to what they
want and need. What's their expectations of sport?
What do they want me to do? I'm called a coach,
but that might not be what they're after today.
They might want me to be a listener. They might
want me to play a parental -type role. That can
change all the time. But again, we only know
that. if we spend time listening and recognising
and noticing. Do you think that's often the stumbling
block, the fact that you are, we are called coaches
and there's a perception we just tried the cartoon
coach needing a clipboard and a whistle but in
our sport it's having a sidearm and a baseball
mitt now and I'm sure in football there's something
similar. You've got to have the gizmos and you've
got to be standing there looking active and actually
you're so often not doing that role traditionally
and also depending on what level you're at it's
a very different role coaching. beginners in
grassroots compared to an international side.
And some people would say much harder. Much harder,
yeah. So the bit you made me think about there
is the perception, again, of what good coaching
is. So I've had this with many coaches. I imagine
coaches that eventually listen to this will recognise
there is a perception of what other people think
coaching are. By other people, I often mean parents
or, I hate the word stakeholders, but, you know,
people around sport that have this perception
that, well, he or she has just been stood there
for five minutes. That's not what I'm paying
money for. Well, actually, that might be the
most powerful five minutes of the session because
that is where they are assessing, working out,
considering, right, where are we going to go
today? What's the right thing for this session?
What's my next interaction with this player going
to be? Am I going to go and help them with something?
Am I going to go and set them a problem? But
actually, they're just thinking and watching.
We should encourage that. But often coaches feel
that the perception is that's when they're not
coaching. That's when they're not doing it. Maybe
it's forecast like this, but we need to readdress
this idea that coaching is about observing, problem
solving, and then helping. And it's educating
the parents often, isn't it? And that's absolutely
right. Coaches do feel that they need to justify
their 20 quid an hour or their certificate or
their general status in a club by appearing to
be active, quite unnecessarily a lot of the time,
where actually if they just had 10 minutes standing
on the sideline watching it all crack on without
interference, they'd be... in a better place
doing a better job but you just get nervous you
have to take a lot of confidence to do that and
we've got to remember not everybody starts their
coaching journey confident you know for many
they are we're starting out um there's a colleague
of mine at uk coaching marianne davies she talks
about it's like learning to fly a plane in a
jumbo jet that's full of passengers. That's what
coaching is when we start out. We don't get a
playground or a sandpit to go and play in. Or
a simulator. Yeah, we don't. And maybe that will
come one day with AI and whatever. But at the
moment, you go and learn a bit about coaching,
so maybe a foundation course in the ECB. And
then you're thrust into it. It's then, go on
then. And a lot of it's luck about who you're
working alongside at that point, isn't it? And
which group you're working with, whether it's
appropriate players are the right sort of players
for you to be working with and how receptive
the parents are. And if you're unlucky, you could
not only damage the players you're working with,
but also you could be put off the whole experience,
couldn't you? Whereas if you get lucky and you
fall on your feet alongside someone who's nurturing
and developing, you're up and running, aren't
you? I'm biased, I guess, but I don't know if
it's lucky or unlucky. For two reasons. One,
I think if the coach can and we should help,
we being the system, coach education, coach development,
we can help coaches to go in with more of a way
of communicating what they're going to do and
why they're doing it the way they're doing. But
again, that takes confidence. Or it's around
what's the network around that coach. So a club
has just said, right, go on, go and do your foundation
course. When they come back, it shouldn't be,
right, here's some balls and bats, good luck.
It should be, yeah, here's someone we're going
to attach to you for six months, just as a...
an official mentoring role just to support you
to be on the end of the phone if you need it
and here's somebody who's going to coach with
you the first couple of weeks and they actually
start to wrap a network around them rather than
just go great you're qualified off you go um
which is looking across multiple sports in my
my role at uk coaching is what tends to happen
it's right you're qualified now good luck Yeah,
it is. It's so like that. And it's such a responsibility,
isn't it? Because you're working with players
and you don't know who the next big star might
be. They might be in your group. They might be
eight years old and be showing no real signs
of anything special at that stage. But if you
get it right as a coach, often just let them
crack on, then they'll develop and reach their
potential and love it. And if you get it wrong,
it's going to be the reverse of that and they
could be lost forever. And if you put it in those
black and white terms. It's quite a responsibility,
isn't it? It's a huge responsibility and I think
that probably taps into some of the confidence
stuff. People are stood in front of this group
of kids often. Normally when you just qualify,
you're working with kids and it's like, crikey,
what do I do now? Like all this responsibility.
But again, maybe I'd flip it slightly differently.
Yes, there might be the next England opener in
your group of kids. There also might be the next
coach at your club. There also might be the next
umpire, the next official. What about the next
sponsor? Because they're the important ones,
aren't they? Well, the people injecting the money.
I mean, that keeps the game ticking, doesn't
it? And you never know, they could be the biggest
non -player in the group, but they could be the
most influential in the game. I mean, my background's
mostly in football. Football's my home sport.
Please don't turn off at that point. I know the
stats for football. It's roughly 0 .0015 % of
kids who play kids football will play in the
Premier League. Is that right? Just say that
number again. 0 .0015%. That's a very small number.
And it's getting smaller, right? For loads of
reasons we don't need to go into. What percentage,
though, will go on to be a member of society
in the future? 100. Right, so actually, maybe
we need to flip our perspective. We're not to
find the next gem. We're to create an opportunity,
whereas if the next gem's in there... they'll
still be playing in 10, 15, 20 years time. They'll
still be around the sport. But also we can't
just define the next gem as the next England
opener. That could be, like we said, that could
be the next England coach. Who knows? So a holistic
approach, trying to develop a person rather than
an athlete, because you picked me up immediately
when I mentioned being athlete -led. So it's
trying to develop people, isn't it? And they
might end up having nothing to do with cricket,
but you'll still play your part. in developing
that person into being what they're being. Actually,
I work on a bunch of cricket and we've got quite
a good record of turning youth cricketers into
Reading footballers, London Irish when they existed,
rugby players. Quite a conveyor belt of our young
cricketers went off and... played at high level
in other sports. I always said to my fellow coaches,
you know, we should take some credit for this
because we're developing the sports person to
become what they are. And okay, they're not openly
batting for Berkshire or Middlesex, which is
probably what we'd all like them to be doing.
But for them, our Berkshire cricket input would
have had significant, hopefully, help to them
becoming their league sports person. I think
we're almost going full circle. We open this
by talking about listening. What message does
that send to a young person, whether they're
a child, a teenager, adolescence, whatever term
you want? I've got this adult in my life who
listens to me, who notices me, who cares about
me. We're instilling values that will last a
lifetime. If you look at teenagers, we know that,
and I'm sure some people will be out there going,
oh, teenagers. We look at teenagers, we know
they are in that time of their life where they
are establishing the values they're going to
live with for the rest of their life. Wouldn't
it be fantastic if they had a coach in front
of them, a human being in front of them, who
listened, who cared, who showed interest? But
I don't mean in the superficial way that we've
probably traditionally done in coaching forever.
Actually, truly notices. Because they even then
mirror that behaviour in their adult life, potentially.
Yeah, it'll stick because they've had somebody
that they look up to, that they value, that they
trust, who's shown them a way. And we know of
all the challenges that are in the country at
the moment growing up. And I still think there
is huge power, whether it's in a... a grassroots
community based or in some sort of performance
pathway it's still the same thing these are children
learning to find their way in the world and they
could have a really positive valuable role model
if we just tuned in a bit more and this is where
the skills from grassroots to top end do overlap
completely don't they maybe they're more noticed
and measured and valued at the very top level
because they are effectively international coaches
they hardly get any contact time with the players
for a start do they so they're like mentor figures
and they are organizers and very much managers
whereas a club youth coach is doing a much broader
range of skills but those skills that we've been
talking about are just as important so perhaps
that's why Sometimes that's not the answer you
get at the start of this conversation. They're
listening because there are so many other skills
required. Absolutely. I coach an under -16 team
and we talk in there. If you're not sure what
to do with your career, go and learn how to be
a coach. Look at all the skills you have to develop,
the qualities that you'll need to be a coach.
So yeah, I don't want to be sat here thinking,
oh yeah, coaching's easy. It's not. I want to
be really clear, coaching's not easy. But again,
I'm adamant, it's easier when we spend more time
listening and noticing. Is there a big difference
between coaching and teaching then, for instance?
I mean, obviously your skills overlap, clearly.
But I don't know how we would define teaching
as opposed to coaching. That's a good question.
I've had many debates around this. It's probably
not for me, although my wife is a teacher. You're
actually very careful here. It's not for me to
define what a teacher is or does, I suppose.
I guess there's some difference in that teachers
are often working to some sort of point, whether
that's an exam, a test, a grade that they've
got to work to. Curriculum driven. Yeah, more
curriculum driven. I suppose with a coach, you
tend to have more opportunity to diversify what
you're working on and ideally to individualise
that. But I sound like a broken record, but I
keep coming back. You can only individualise
your coaching if you know what the person in
front of you needs. And you only get to do that
by stopping, listening, watching, thinking. We're
back to that again. Yeah, ultimately, both occupations
are to help people get better at something. So
there are similarities. So a couple of other
things I wanted to pick up on here about being
fully committed and the commitment it is to be
a decent level coach in terms of time but energy
as well and developing yourself as a coach so
developing your skills and trying to get better
and the other thing I wanted to pick up on was
just an enjoyment factor not just for the players
you're working with but also for you and your
coaching team because really you're only going
to be good at all this if you're actually enjoying
it. It's going to be quite a tough existence
if you're not really wholehearted or enjoying
it and fully committed. You're just not really
any good at it, are you? Completely. He reminded
me of a coach that I worked with a few years
ago who said, when we lost at the weekend, it
ruined my week. And I just sort of had to play
that back to him and go, are you sure? You're
not going to be doing this for very long if losing
at the weekend with your kids' team ruins your
week. So we started to unpick, what else is in
it? What do you look for other than whether we
win or lose? Because ultimately, we don't get
to choose that. But we do get to choose how we
interact with the people in front of us. We do
get to choose whether we notice the little developments
they make. With a seven -year -old, that might
be learning to tie their shoelaces. With a 16
-year -old, that might be choosing a different
word to describe an experience. There's loads
of little mini wins. But I think sometimes as
a coach, we get caught up in all the... losses
and all the frustrations and all the challenges
we miss the mini wins i think sometimes each
coach just needs somebody that helps them to
spot those whether that's a coach developer whether
that's just a friend a co -coach you know to
someone that says well actually if we look back
a year these players are in a completely different
place a year later we just don't notice there
aren't many levels where winning becomes significant
important everything really if you're maybe the
last day of an ashes test match and you need
to hold out for a draw to win the series that
i get that maybe but below that they're very
rare isn't it where actually you need to attach
your whole weekend's joy or grief to the result
i suppose football fan mentality that really
isn't it rather than coach mentality and they're
quite different things i think there's a there's
a whole society thing in there you know you could
chuck in social media i need to put on social
media that my under 12s team won at the weekend
like is that really what we need and football
coaches are managed particularly have to look
crestfallen if they lose and joyous if they win
to keep the fans on side so that perhaps spreads
around coaching circles as well and i suppose
it's what we're exposed to what we see on the
tv and i find it really interesting in the cricket
world the coach tends to just sit up on the balcony
big sunglasses on so no one can see big hat normally
as well so yeah there's perceptions again we're
back into that idea of what is a coach and my
experiences of cricket which aren't huge but
it seems to be a coach is perceived slightly
different to some other sports maybe there's
an opportunity there actually we can do all the
things we're talking about today about properly
tune in and listen and because Maybe that perception
of some of the top coaches in cricket will really
do some of that stuff. I don't know how much
coaching experience you have or you've observed
in different cultures, but that's a spanner in
the works, isn't it? So some of our coaches are
travelling out to work in the IPL now or working
abroad, and I think that's got to be a good thing
to go and dip your toe in the water outside of
the comfort of the UK. But then that really tests
your skills, doesn't it, when you're dealing
in different cultures? and that listening. I
did some coaching out in Canada a few years ago
and the perceptions was there that the coach
is the font of all knowledge. I'll do what you
tell me because you know better than me. And
when I turned up and went, so what do you think?
People sort of looked at me as though I had three
heads. Wrong foot. It was like, what do you mean?
What do I think? And it's then they knew. You're
the most important person in this. You're the
player. So what do you think? What do you want?
Does there come a point where you need to demonstrate
your knowledge and your worth? I think there's
been some research into professional teams, particularly
where athletes do, at times, want to just be
told what to do. I know I really get the limitations
from a development point of view of that, but
there are moments, aren't there, where perhaps
time is a restriction. whatever it might be that
a coach just go actually this is it this is what
we're doing. I think we're in danger of and this
is really typical but we're in danger of going
black or white there's nuance in this so if I
come back to kind of the key theme of listening,
noticing, tuning in, reading the room. Well,
one of the things you might notice from the group
is they need me to lead at the moment. They need
me to drive because that's where we're at. So
I've come into a team that are struggling. They've
lost the last 10 games. They probably need me
to stand at the front and give some direction.
But again, you can only do that if you tune in
and read the room. And back to again, the best
coaches are responsive. They'll read the situation.
So whilst, yes, I was in Canada and I tried to
get the players to take more ownership and more
responsibility, if I'd have tried that for the
whole week, they'd have stopped coming. So I
had to realise, right, this needs to be a negotiation
now. We need to work and find some middle. And
over time, I'll help shift them towards being
more in charge of their own learning, taking
more responsibility and more ownership. But at
the moment, they're not ready for it. But it's
only because I listen that I find that out. And
I think typically as coaches, we tend to assume,
I did this last time, I'll do this again. But
human beings are unique. It's always different.
Whether you're abroad, whether you're at different
levels, it will always be different. And you
talked earlier on about... We use the example
of the slalom canoeing coach. Yes, prepare, don't
plan. Yes, so not planning isn't a shortcut to
less work, is it? In fact, it's more work, isn't
it? Be prepared for a whole series of eventualities.
We're not saying the coach just rock up and see
how it goes. You still need all that knowledge
and you still need all the ideas and you still
need all the communication skills. you're going
there with a bigger fuller tool bag than a than
if you had a super planned session which could
only go one way i suppose i think that yes it
is harder to coach in this hard to describe that
you get it you well you don't get to switch off
you don't get to stop you don't get to go on
autopilot and follow the plan because you're
constantly switched on there's a phrase that
bounces around some sports i don't know if in
cricket that the game is the teacher yes we've
done that no the game is not the teacher you're
the teacher or coach back to our earlier conversation
teacher or coach you're the coach the game helps
you to do that but once again you can only do
that if you're really in tune with what's going
on around you so yes it is harder it is far more
effortful to be responsive and react to what
happens in front of you and what individuals
need. But ultimately, that's what they deserve.
But that whole idea of, we've talked about letting
the practice do the teaching and that they learn
from the creation. There's still some validity
in that, isn't there? A well -set -up practice
obviously educates a young player more than a...
We can almost look at layers here. So we're talking
about a coach, the coach layer, being in tune,
recognising the environment, reading the room,
all that sort of stuff. We want players doing
that too. So we don't want players that constantly
go, ah, I don't know what to do, I'll ask my
coach. We want players that go, I'm in a situation
here and I need to adapt accordingly. So we've
lost early wickets, how do I play now? What's
changed? So yes, the coach can create opportunities
to practice that. But again, that's recognising
where the players are, what they need, the mood
they're in today and how we'll adapt with it.
But crikey, yeah, how we design practices is
hugely important as a coach. But we then need
to spend time observing to see what actually
happens. ITCs, we used to call them, independent
thinking cricketers. So yeah, ITCs is what we
were always after as coaches. We don't use that
expression so much now, but back in the day,
that's what we talked about. Last thing I wanted
to ask you about is energy, because you've obviously
got bundled with it, just from your body language
and the way you talk. And that is quite a handy
thing to have, isn't it, as a quality, as a coach.
It is demanding. It's hard work and it does need
energy. You need to be physically... able to
inject that energy to sessions and players it's
i'm energetic because it's something i'm really
interested in um if we were talking about chess
i might be less gardening yeah same um so lovely
box heading over there those geraniums so i think
if um because that's your point earlier like
if you're if you're tapping into something you
really enjoy doing if you're getting value out
of what you're doing the energy tends to flow
anyway so I think coaches need to look at what
do I want from this the classic in a grassroots
community space is we need a new coach and everybody
stepped back and you didn't step back quick enough
well actually look at it what can you get from
this it's going to going to fulfill you that
you're going to enjoy from you know when you
see the smile on the kid's face who's just played
a ramp shot like Joe Root for the first time
that's amazing that's incredible so we've got
to try and we've got to ride those waves a little
bit but um yes we do need energy But again, I'd
counter that with, we need to be able to flex
and respond. So there are times with my team,
I need to provide the energy. I need to bring
the energy. I need to be bouncy and lively and
loud and full of life. But there's other times
where I need to shut up and I just need to...
withdraw a little bit and let them go now that
might be when they're in a practice and we're
trying i'm getting them to struggle a little
bit and getting them to work some stuff out well
that might just be they're sick of me like my
under 16s have just had their gcse results the
last thing they want on a wednesday night is
me telling them what to do most of us find one
or the other easier don't we so i suspect look
we've only been talking half an hour but you
probably find it quite easy to inject the energy
and be upbeat and I have to work hard to dial
it down. And then to step back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think I'll probably be similar in truth.
But most people have one or the other, don't
they? It's their default. And they don't have
to be quite consciously making an effort to do
the other. So in my coach development work, if
I go and work with a coach, we'll mic them up.
I dare the coaches listening to this. Find the
Dictaphone app on your phone. You've all got
one. We've all got a smartphone. Hit record and
go coaching. and afterwards listen back to it
and see if you can notice almost like the peaks
and troughs in the way you've interacted the
energy you're bringing because it shouldn't be
constant this should be flex you should be adapting
music like a song crescendo yes so yeah that's
what good coaching looks and feels like and and
there isn't oh you should do you should go high
or you should go low it all depends on how you
felt in the moment so a lot of my conversations
with coaches will be listening to the audio going
well you went high there what was you thinking
what made you go high what did you notice in
in the environment that said you need to bring
some energy and vice versa and that's the skill
of coaching the skill of coaching is adapting
on the fly because you're prepared enough because
we talk a lot about videoing your own coaching
performance but actually you're right on voice
note isn't it on my phone all i need to do is
whack it on that and then listen back afterwards
i may not like i won't actually i always think
people who like to sound their own voice that's
a bit weird i hate listening to myself But you'd
learn a lot about your coaching and the pace
of the delivery and the energy levels. So that's
my takeaway. I'm going to do that. Even if it's
not for the whole session, five minutes. Just
do your debrief at the end or your team talk
in the change room beforehand. Just test it.
Just try it. But you're right. Nobody likes their
own voice. I'm going to have to fight through
listening to this podcast back because I don't
like my own voice either. but it's the most powerful
thing. And it means you've got a coach developer
in your pocket. That's really good. Thank you
so much. Great to meet you. Now, you can go and
do your gardening shopping in this cafe. You
can nip outside. Look at all those lovely plants
waiting for you to be... Find my wife some flowers,
maybe. After that comment about teachers earlier,
you might need to. No, I've loved it. Thank you
for the interview. I will happily talk coaching
all day long. I hope for any coaches that are
listening, there might be something in there
that they're willing to just think differently.
Because that's the point. Nobody's got the answer.
But we've all got some ideas that ultimately
blend together in our coaching practice. Thanks
to Martin Dighton for his thought -provoking
ideas there. Tim's off to listen back to his
interviewing technique now. Enjoy listening to
your coaching style. And it's never been more
appropriate to finish as we normally do by thanking
you for listening.