WEBVTT 00:00:02.710 --> 00:00:05.349 You're listening to the The icoahcricket Podcast. 00:00:05.950 --> 00:00:08.750 In this episode, Tim Dellor catches up with Iain 00:00:08.750 --> 00:00:11.490 Brunnschweiler, once upon a time a player and coach 00:00:11.490 --> 00:00:14.929 at Hampshire and UCB and still very much involved 00:00:14.929 --> 00:00:17.690 in coaching. He works as a coach development 00:00:17.690 --> 00:00:20.370 consultant. Much of his time is spent working 00:00:20.370 --> 00:00:22.530 in football and with the Premier League at St 00:00:22.530 --> 00:00:24.969 George's Park. But as he's been telling Tim, 00:00:25.129 --> 00:00:27.629 the last few years have seen him dip into a wide 00:00:27.629 --> 00:00:31.089 range of sports. And like all coaches, both Brunchie 00:00:31.089 --> 00:00:34.590 and Tim drive lots of miles every week. So where 00:00:34.590 --> 00:00:37.530 better to meet them? Cheveley Service Station. 00:00:37.909 --> 00:00:40.469 What a wonderful spot to meet at Cheveley. Yeah, 00:00:40.509 --> 00:00:42.130 lovely to see you, Tim. And yeah, like you say, 00:00:42.210 --> 00:00:43.810 I haven't seen you for years, but obviously we 00:00:43.810 --> 00:00:45.770 interacted quite a lot in the past. Yeah, well, 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:48.210 let's go back, shall we, a few years. Your journey 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:51.429 started at Hampshire, head of S &C there. That 00:00:51.429 --> 00:00:53.030 was quite a long time ago then, wasn't that? 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:55.960 Yeah, gosh, that's many years ago. I've had many 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.140 lives since then. I played at Hampshire, had 00:00:58.140 --> 00:01:01.259 five seasons as a pro, which was great fun. And 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:04.079 then, yeah, I did my uni degrees and coaching 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:07.000 badges, but I did a combined role of S &C and 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:09.879 coaching. So I started coaching the academy there, 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.659 as well as providing S &C to the professionals. 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:16.719 So that's probably, gosh, 2006, 2007. Really? 00:01:16.739 --> 00:01:18.659 So we're cracking off at nearly 20 years since 00:01:18.659 --> 00:01:20.239 you did that role. And you were one of the first, 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.719 I think, weren't you? Not every county had, and 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:24.439 I know you were saying about being an assistant 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:27.659 coach as well as S &C specific responsibilities, 00:01:27.819 --> 00:01:30.329 but... quite new to that and leading the way 00:01:30.329 --> 00:01:31.950 a little bit? Well, I don't know if I was leading 00:01:31.950 --> 00:01:33.969 the way, but I was giving it a go. Yeah, I think 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.170 it was a time in the game where there was certainly 00:01:37.170 --> 00:01:40.430 a desire for us to be more professionalised and 00:01:40.430 --> 00:01:42.890 the athleticism in the game to be given a bit 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:45.290 of focus. So yeah, it wasn't always easy with 00:01:45.290 --> 00:01:48.569 the squad. We had a few guys who had very high 00:01:48.569 --> 00:01:50.349 skill level, but their lifestyle could have been 00:01:50.349 --> 00:01:52.510 adapted slightly. You know, none of them the 00:01:52.510 --> 00:01:54.409 late, late, great Shane Warne. Trying to get 00:01:54.409 --> 00:01:57.530 him to do exercise wasn't easy. But yeah, it 00:01:57.530 --> 00:02:01.120 was a great time. Lots of fab players, good coaching 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:02.780 team as well. So yeah, it was a really enjoyable 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:05.319 time. And just to zip forward 20 years, do you 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:07.980 think that's changed much? So you must look at 00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:10.860 S &C coaches now, and I know that's not your 00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:13.560 bag particularly, your specialism now, but do 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:16.560 you think it's easier for S &C specialists now? 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:19.039 Maybe it's more accepted in professional sport 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:21.439 that that is a part of it, whereas 20 years ago 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.800 it was all a bit new and funky, wasn't it? And 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.759 you did get a few. old school players who are 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:28.360 maybe a bit more resistant to it than you do 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.500 nowadays yeah 100 yeah i think in in the modern 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:34.620 game in all sports now we multi -disciplinary 00:02:34.620 --> 00:02:38.319 teams we have sports scientists snc coaches you 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.599 know physios analysts it's very much a part of 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:43.639 the package these days um which is good it's 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.680 a good thing um and it's the way that sport has 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.199 progressed and we've learned a lot i'm sure in 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:50.960 the last 20 years i was going to say that i did 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.719 a sports science degree Oh, I can't know. It's 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.159 not 30 years ago, surely. Let's say 25 years 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:58.300 ago. And it's completely out of date. So when 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:00.500 I talk to sports scientists now, I don't really... 00:03:00.889 --> 00:03:02.830 have much to bring to a conversation whereas 00:03:02.830 --> 00:03:05.030 i don't know if it's the same in those specialist 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:08.169 roles you think oh yeah i mean the the level 00:03:08.169 --> 00:03:11.250 and depth of knowledge in i'd say all of the 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:14.030 ologies now has grown hugely in the last 20 years 00:03:14.030 --> 00:03:17.250 and yeah gosh i look at you know i'm lucky now 00:03:17.250 --> 00:03:19.710 in my current space i interact with lots of different 00:03:19.710 --> 00:03:22.969 sporting teams elite sporting teams and some 00:03:22.969 --> 00:03:25.669 of the work that's going on from sports scientists 00:03:25.669 --> 00:03:27.969 and ssc coaches is ridiculous you know i was 00:03:27.969 --> 00:03:29.250 just trying to get the lads to run around the 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:31.879 park a bit and stop drinking five pints of Guinness 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.460 every night. So yeah, it's come on loads, I think 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.939 broadly for the best. I think the reality is 00:03:37.939 --> 00:03:41.879 often coaches and S &C coaches can come to loggerheads. 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:44.780 I don't know how many S &C coaches will be listening 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:48.319 to this, but they're certainly, you know, in 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.139 terms of loading. Coaches want more and S &C 00:03:51.139 --> 00:03:53.439 coaches want less, which can be a problem. But 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.879 I think when the sort of multidisciplinary teams 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:58.340 work well together, it can be brilliant for the 00:03:58.340 --> 00:04:00.740 players. I won't talk too much about S &C because 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:02.840 that wasn't what was on my plan at all. But I 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:04.740 just remember you doing quite a lot of heart 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:07.620 rates of players. And you had this really cool 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:10.840 bit of research on it. I think it was a T20 game 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:13.319 and you had your Hampshire opening batters with 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.680 the heart rate monitors on. And you were showing 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.079 us how their heart rates, even before... face 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:22.439 of delivery just sky high and it was like a look 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:24.160 this is why you need to be fit because just for 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.279 the adrenaline that's coursing through your veins 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:29.040 this is This is the sort of stress that's on 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:31.100 a player. Yeah, well, that's a remarkable piece 00:04:31.100 --> 00:04:33.079 of memory from you. Yeah, I remember it really 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:35.939 well. Yeah, I was fascinated at the time by the 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:38.379 human body and how it responded under pressure 00:04:38.379 --> 00:04:41.199 and under the load of exercise. And yeah, so 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.019 the guys were great. They tolerated me as I sort 00:04:45.019 --> 00:04:46.920 of wandered around trying to put heart rate straps 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:49.600 on them live in matches. So we had, you know, 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:52.860 proper live T20 games monitoring the heart rate, 00:04:52.899 --> 00:04:55.459 which I think, yeah, you know, given that this 00:04:55.459 --> 00:04:59.040 is 20 -odd. years ago that wasn't normal practice 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.800 so the results that came out were fascinating 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:06.920 and yeah the guys were up at nearly maximal heart 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:09.459 rate as they were ready to face the next delivery 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:11.939 so i was kind of doing it as a bit of a research 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:13.899 project and also just to validate the fitness 00:05:13.899 --> 00:05:15.879 work that we were doing with them and we got 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:18.720 huge buy -in from the guys and in fact i wish 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.160 i'd had almost like a a team photo of them you 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.759 know with their shirts off before and after a 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:26.759 couple of years intervention because we went 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.560 from being you know with the greatest of respects 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:33.819 some sort of not particularly uh fit guys some 00:05:33.819 --> 00:05:36.180 of the guys were unbelievably fit and you know 00:05:36.180 --> 00:05:39.300 in really good shape and and actually this correlated 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:43.100 with Hampshire having a really successful period 00:05:43.100 --> 00:05:45.740 particularly in the white ball game you know 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:47.720 we had a big emphasis on fielding and fitness 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:50.990 and athleticism I'm proud to have played a role 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:53.069 in that. It wasn't all about fitness. We had 00:05:53.069 --> 00:05:54.910 some bloody good players, but, you know, I think 00:05:54.910 --> 00:05:57.050 it did play a role. I wasn't expecting to talk 00:05:57.050 --> 00:05:59.009 as long about S &C, but that was really interesting. 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:00.870 That took me back a bit, didn't it? And it's 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:03.189 fascinating how that particular genre has moved 00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:06.250 on. Let's move on then to what you're doing now 00:06:06.250 --> 00:06:08.170 and what you've done in between. So the last 00:06:08.170 --> 00:06:11.310 15 years, your career, I think, has been really 00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:13.389 interesting because you've meandered around, 00:06:13.569 --> 00:06:15.449 haven't you, doing different roles where a lot 00:06:15.449 --> 00:06:17.839 of people are a bit more linear. Yeah, gosh, 00:06:17.899 --> 00:06:20.839 I'll try and summarise the last 15 years. Having 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.860 worked at Hampshire, I then was very privileged 00:06:23.860 --> 00:06:26.060 to take a role with England Cricket, where I 00:06:26.060 --> 00:06:28.959 initially started with the England under -17 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.139 development squad, so I was the head coach of 00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:34.139 that, and then that expanded to me working with 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:37.709 the under -19s and 17s, so I had... Five or six 00:06:37.709 --> 00:06:40.370 great years. I mean, pretty much a dream job, 00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:42.730 charging around the world with the best players 00:06:42.730 --> 00:06:45.350 in the country and us playing in India, South 00:06:45.350 --> 00:06:49.420 Africa, Australia, etc. And did you... see a 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:52.139 few of them in those days and subsequently have 00:06:52.139 --> 00:06:55.439 been completely unsurprised by their progress 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:58.600 to the dizzy heights yeah the likes of sam curran 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:02.579 ollie pope ben ducat saki mamoud you know all 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:05.259 lads who we worked with and toured with the under 00:07:05.259 --> 00:07:10.019 19s the overton twins ben folks uh you know there's 00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:12.560 loads of lads who uh we interacted with a good 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:14.879 long list equally oh there are a few that you 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:16.079 remember you don't need to name them obviously 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.259 but that you remember you thought they're gonna 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.540 be a gun and have basically fallen by the wayside 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:24.879 a bit and perhaps not met the potential expectation 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.779 you had with them yeah i mean i think some of 00:07:27.779 --> 00:07:29.980 the guys i've just talked about would have probably 00:07:29.980 --> 00:07:32.300 been some of the guys we highlighted with the 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:35.740 highest potential at the time but there's certainly 00:07:35.740 --> 00:07:37.819 a few that we had really high hopes for who've 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:40.899 lots of them have played First class cricket, 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.220 when I look at the team photos, there's lots 00:07:43.220 --> 00:07:45.000 of guys who've, you know, the majority have gone 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.079 on and played first class cricket. So that in 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.139 itself is a success. Yeah, 100%. And at the heart 00:07:51.139 --> 00:07:53.459 of it, there's still a number of the guys who 00:07:53.459 --> 00:07:56.220 I trade messages with or I send them a well done. 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:00.399 And I love seeing anyone I've coached who I see 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.079 doing well. It's just a brilliant feeling. I'm 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:05.579 sure every coach can empathise with that. That 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:08.360 when you see, especially young players, you know, 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.060 many of these young guys, we were interacting 00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:13.399 with them as 15, 16 year olds. You know, they're 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.319 in that period of their lives when there's so 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:18.060 much evolution of them as a person. To see that 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:20.740 to them being fully fledged internationals or 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:23.199 first class players just gives you a sense of 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.040 pride. So, yeah, wonderful. Great time. So you 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.040 did that for a while. Yeah. And with some success 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.529 and then. But you're not doing that now. So tell 00:08:31.529 --> 00:08:33.850 us a little bit about after that where your career 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:37.129 has taken you. Yeah, so I had a brief foray in 00:08:37.129 --> 00:08:40.309 the Olympic sport world. So I was lucky enough 00:08:40.309 --> 00:08:43.789 to lead a team of coach developers into a number 00:08:43.789 --> 00:08:46.090 of Olympic sports. So that was a project funded 00:08:46.090 --> 00:08:49.610 by UK Sport. It wasn't my ideal job because it 00:08:49.610 --> 00:08:52.429 was very strategic and it was... Just too far 00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:54.049 from the grass for me. It sounds really good. 00:08:54.210 --> 00:08:56.809 Because you look at the range of Olympic sports 00:08:56.809 --> 00:08:58.789 that you have. One week you'd be trampolining 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:01.009 and then you'd be next week on the rowing lake 00:09:01.009 --> 00:09:03.789 and then maybe a bit of fencing or equestrianism. 00:09:03.830 --> 00:09:06.629 It sounds really good fun to have that range. 00:09:07.929 --> 00:09:09.909 You must have got some learning out of that at 00:09:09.909 --> 00:09:12.350 least. Oh, it was enormous learning for many, 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:14.409 many reasons. Yeah, I mean, I interacted with... 00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:17.769 from british archery to british cycling the smaller 00:09:17.769 --> 00:09:20.309 sorts to the biggest sports i learned absolutely 00:09:20.309 --> 00:09:23.210 heaps firstly i didn't know anything about many 00:09:23.210 --> 00:09:25.669 of the sports that could be an advantage can't 00:09:25.669 --> 00:09:28.350 it i'm always slightly wary when you see people 00:09:28.350 --> 00:09:31.429 coming into cricket who don't have cricket knowledge 00:09:31.429 --> 00:09:34.049 but the clever operators they can really make 00:09:34.049 --> 00:09:36.149 that a sort of super strength can't they and 00:09:36.149 --> 00:09:37.929 i don't know whether you found that going in 00:09:37.929 --> 00:09:39.509 and you just concentrate on the coaching skills 00:09:39.509 --> 00:09:41.389 rather than get distracted with all the tactics 00:09:41.389 --> 00:09:44.039 and the techniques and yeah i think and you I've 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:46.799 heard the phrase as sort of a naive expert recently, 00:09:47.059 --> 00:09:49.679 and I think that's probably what I was. I had 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.940 a level of expertise in coaching, so I knew quite 00:09:51.940 --> 00:09:53.759 a lot about coaching. I've been coaching a lot. 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.200 I knew nothing about archery or these sports. 00:09:57.299 --> 00:10:00.419 However, I could talk about connecting with the 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:03.679 person and how to understand their motivation 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:05.460 and their strengths and their weaknesses. So 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:10.789 loads of transfer and loads of learning. As I 00:10:10.789 --> 00:10:12.990 said, it didn't feel like the right job for me. 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.240 I was looking for a job that was UK -based at 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.899 the time because I'd had children by this stage 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:20.980 and my wife had mentioned that being out of the 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:23.580 country for months at a time wasn't her preference. 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:25.539 Yeah, I know that conversation. Yeah, I think 00:10:25.539 --> 00:10:27.899 many of us would have had it. I've always been 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:30.139 a Southampton Football Club fan. I'm a born and 00:10:30.139 --> 00:10:32.580 raised Saints fan. It's a bit tricky at the moment 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:35.519 to be a fan. However, I'd got some links with 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.159 the club and one of the senior guys at the club 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.600 contacted me and said, look, we've got a new 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:43.970 role coming up. As a coach developer with our 00:10:43.970 --> 00:10:46.330 academy coaches, would you be interested in applying 00:10:46.330 --> 00:10:48.870 for it? So I went and met them and ended up getting 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:51.549 the job. Is that normal for a football club to 00:10:51.549 --> 00:10:55.289 have an entire branch of coach development? I 00:10:55.289 --> 00:10:56.850 mean, cricket obviously has their coach development 00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:59.809 department, but you don't have each county. having 00:10:59.809 --> 00:11:03.009 their own coach developers is that usual in football 00:11:03.009 --> 00:11:06.389 circles well it is now and the premier league 00:11:06.389 --> 00:11:10.070 themselves funded this huge project with the 00:11:10.070 --> 00:11:12.429 ambition of having a coach developer or head 00:11:12.429 --> 00:11:14.929 of coaching at every single club and so this 00:11:14.929 --> 00:11:16.649 southampton were actually ahead of the curve 00:11:16.649 --> 00:11:19.509 as they often have been in these spaces so they'd 00:11:19.509 --> 00:11:22.870 already had a head of coaching in place and who 00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:25.009 had who'd started delivering in -house coach 00:11:25.009 --> 00:11:27.090 development and then they they'd expanded that 00:11:27.090 --> 00:11:30.419 so they wanted me to come I spent six seasons 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:33.500 at the club. I absolutely loved it. Anyone from 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:36.799 cricket who comes into football will know it's 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:39.740 a bit of a different game. So it certainly took 00:11:39.740 --> 00:11:42.360 me a while. I was very aware. It's more volatile, 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:44.659 let's be honest. It's a more volatile sport. 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.460 Within the first year, I think we were on to 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:52.340 our third manager, second ownership group. second 00:11:52.340 --> 00:11:54.480 director of football. Whereas if I compare that 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.600 to Hampshire, Giles White, who's a great mate. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.019 Great stability. Great stability. Giles White 00:11:59.019 --> 00:12:01.340 was the director of cricket when I left and he's 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:02.580 still the director of cricket now. So there's 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:05.299 a very different level of volatility. And I was 00:12:05.299 --> 00:12:07.600 very aware that if I got this wrong, I could 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.139 just get booted out very quickly. You have played 00:12:11.139 --> 00:12:14.289 football, Ed. decent level hadn't you yes I did 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:16.289 have to point this out to a few of the I had 00:12:16.289 --> 00:12:18.149 been paid to play football so I had a certain 00:12:18.149 --> 00:12:21.210 level of knowledge of the game I love football 00:12:21.210 --> 00:12:23.610 love football and cricket if you're predominantly 00:12:23.610 --> 00:12:26.269 a cricket guy I don't know if I can call you 00:12:26.269 --> 00:12:28.070 that or whether you'd thank me for saying that 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:30.620 but I think of you as a first and foremost a 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:33.220 cricket guy going into work in other sports so 00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:35.980 in your time working at uk sport and dipping 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.379 into your trampolining and your fencing i suppose 00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:41.279 the key thing is being really authentic and honest 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.200 with what you know what more to the point what 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.500 you don't know whereas if you try and blag it 00:12:46.090 --> 00:12:48.110 go in and tell people about their foils and FAs 00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:49.730 and the fencing, they're probably going to go, 00:12:49.850 --> 00:12:53.330 ooh. Yes, yeah, totally right. And I've managed, 00:12:53.450 --> 00:12:55.450 I've been very fortunate and privileged to have 00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:58.190 spent seven years now with two different Premier 00:12:58.190 --> 00:13:02.769 League clubs. I don't see my role as challenging 00:13:02.769 --> 00:13:07.710 the coaches on their tactical ability. I'm very 00:13:07.710 --> 00:13:10.429 comfortable in that space, but I've tried to 00:13:10.429 --> 00:13:12.669 make it my specialism to look at their coaching 00:13:12.669 --> 00:13:15.370 skills. How do they interact with players? How 00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:17.929 do they set up their coaching environment? Where 00:13:17.929 --> 00:13:19.669 are they drawing information? When are they giving 00:13:19.669 --> 00:13:22.970 information? And being a bit of a sounding board 00:13:22.970 --> 00:13:26.669 for coaches. So, yeah, I mean, anyone who's got 00:13:26.669 --> 00:13:30.070 deep knowledge in a sport and has coached a sport, 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:32.850 I think if you pause for a moment and think about 00:13:32.850 --> 00:13:35.980 the transferable skills to another sport... Coaching 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:38.840 is coaching. I'm very lucky now to be coaching 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.519 not just people in sport, I coach people in business 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.500 as an executive coach, but the fundamentals are 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.120 exactly the same. Can you attend to the human 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.379 in front of you, find out what's going on for 00:13:49.379 --> 00:13:51.659 them and help them consider what they might want 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.120 to go after next? If you're going to be a cricket 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.399 coach or a football coach or a tennis coach, 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.159 clearly to deliver to players you need to be 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.659 above the line in terms of your knowledge of 00:14:02.659 --> 00:14:06.009 the game. However, I've found as a developer 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:10.950 of coaches, it's more around the learning around 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:15.429 learning and how do people learn and that's transferable 00:14:15.429 --> 00:14:18.490 across sports. So actually it can be an advantage 00:14:18.490 --> 00:14:21.149 to get away from that distraction of the technique 00:14:21.149 --> 00:14:24.029 and the nuances because we're all badgers at 00:14:24.029 --> 00:14:26.190 heart, aren't we? So if you're watching cricket, 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:29.000 you have your own view on... how the game's developing 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.879 tactically, you want input. But if you're... 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:34.019 I thought I'd be more impressed with my foils 00:14:34.019 --> 00:14:37.320 and epee reference, by the way. I don't know 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.399 anything about fencing. Neither do I. But if 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.000 you are trying to get too engrossed in that, 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.259 clearly that's not going to go well. So, yeah, 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:46.899 it could be a serious advantage being an outsider 00:14:46.899 --> 00:14:49.659 and seeing it from outside. I think so. And I 00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:52.179 guess you're making me think now, when I came 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.700 into Southampton, I think one of the reasons 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:57.399 it worked was that when I interviewed... interviewed 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.840 with the technical director and one of the senior 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:03.340 guys at the academy and they knew that my background 00:15:03.340 --> 00:15:05.820 was not as a football coach and they were very 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:07.580 comfortable with that and they didn't put me 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:11.240 under any pressure to go and joust in terms of 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.159 my football knowledge with you know the under 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.960 21s coaches at the time. were two guys, one who'd 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.840 played over 100 international games of football 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.620 and the other had played something like 400 pro 00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:25.840 games, 200 in the Premier League. So if I'd wandered 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.840 over to them and tried to move their mannequins 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:30.039 out of the way... You want to head it like this. 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.820 Yeah, I think that wasn't my role. My role was 00:15:33.820 --> 00:15:36.899 to develop a relationship with them and to start... 00:15:37.129 --> 00:15:39.009 talking to them about how they were going about 00:15:39.009 --> 00:15:42.570 their coaching and I've learned that and this 00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:44.269 is the same with players as it is with when you're 00:15:44.269 --> 00:15:46.850 trying to coach coaches like some things feel 00:15:46.850 --> 00:15:49.730 great after one conversation some things take 00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:53.799 20. or 50 conversations and that taking your 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:55.740 time with the person in front of you you're trying 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:59.779 to work with is is vital because again if i tried 00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:03.279 to go in and got in two -footed to use some footballing 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.960 parlance you know i i'd have got sent off you 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.919 know to carry on that really analogy and whereas 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.440 When I went in there, probably the guys who were 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.360 coaching the under 10s and 11s, they were happy 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.559 to interact with me straight away and to talk 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.820 football coaching. Those more experienced guys 00:16:22.820 --> 00:16:24.899 who were probably a little bit more wary, naturally, 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:26.580 I had to take my time with them. And it's the 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:28.539 same with players, isn't it? Exactly the same 00:16:28.539 --> 00:16:30.960 with players. I remember talking to batting coaches 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.019 over the years who have been at the ECB, saying 00:16:33.019 --> 00:16:35.679 they've had experiences of going on England tours 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.840 and standing there videoing stuff and doing throwdowns 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.190 and the batter's not engaging at all. seemingly 00:16:42.190 --> 00:16:44.190 wanting any advice and you just have to wait 00:16:44.190 --> 00:16:46.809 your time. build up that trust and that relationship 00:16:46.809 --> 00:16:50.070 before you can start to make any interventions 00:16:50.070 --> 00:16:52.990 and it is a long process isn't it with some players 00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:54.629 some players you just click straight away and 00:16:54.629 --> 00:16:56.490 off you go but some you just have to bide your 00:16:56.490 --> 00:16:59.909 time yeah and a very simple phrase of connect 00:16:59.909 --> 00:17:02.870 before you correct i think is valid here in its 00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:04.589 but just because you've had one conversation 00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:06.829 doesn't mean you've connected i think that's 00:17:06.829 --> 00:17:09.849 the real you know coaching is it's human skills 00:17:09.849 --> 00:17:12.769 ultimately you know it's about the human creating 00:17:12.769 --> 00:17:15.750 that connection some people It's like that. I'm 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:18.750 clicking my fingers. This is a podcast. Some 00:17:18.750 --> 00:17:20.210 people, it happens straight away, and you can 00:17:20.210 --> 00:17:22.569 feel and sense that connection. And with others, 00:17:22.650 --> 00:17:24.829 you've got to take more time. Those that it doesn't 00:17:24.829 --> 00:17:26.930 click with straight away, but I think you're 00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:29.390 right. If you bide your time, you can make it 00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:31.150 work with anybody. But do you think that's your 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:35.190 personality, the player's personality, the situation 00:17:35.190 --> 00:17:37.950 and environment? I mean, what is it that means 00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:40.410 that some people you connect with straight away 00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:42.869 and others it takes ages and ages? What is the 00:17:42.869 --> 00:17:46.930 difference? Yeah, wow, gosh. If I had a PhD in 00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:48.750 neuroscience, I'd be able to give you an answer. 00:17:49.210 --> 00:17:53.609 My experience is there's lots of variables. People 00:17:53.609 --> 00:17:56.650 are constantly evaluating each other and they're 00:17:56.650 --> 00:18:00.019 looking for... I heard this term... serve and 00:18:00.019 --> 00:18:03.059 return so that you know in tennis as a person 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:05.539 we're serving stuff out to the person we're talking 00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:08.180 to and that can be body language actual language 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:10.920 verbal cues non -verbal cues and then we're receiving 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.400 something back and there's something going on 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.240 between humans that will give us an indication 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.720 of whether the person in front of us is connecting 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.640 or not now i can't tell you what that is but 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.670 i think you just get a sense of Those who are 00:18:24.670 --> 00:18:27.029 aware and are open to it will be able to get 00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:28.849 a sense of what's going on in front of them. 00:18:29.410 --> 00:18:33.190 I think as a coach, whether under 15 in the nets 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:35.730 at the local club or whether you're Brendan McCullum 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:38.849 working with one of the England guys, when you're 00:18:38.849 --> 00:18:42.269 literally there one -on -one with someone, there's 00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:44.430 an opportunity to be aware of what's coming back 00:18:44.430 --> 00:18:47.549 at you. And I think one of my biggest learnings 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:51.190 as a coach is around my ability to listen. And 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:53.950 when I say listen, it's not just the words, it's 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:56.369 almost listening with all my senses. Yeah, and 00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:59.849 tenor up, so understanding and just actually 00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:01.869 it's noticing stuff, isn't it? It's noticing. 00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:03.990 It's no more technical than that, just seeing 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:06.170 everything that's going on and understanding 00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:09.359 the player. what mood they're in yeah how they're 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.579 feeling that particular day and how that opens 00:19:11.579 --> 00:19:13.859 communication there yeah absolutely and it's 00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:16.460 great that's a great word it's noticing it's 00:19:16.460 --> 00:19:19.099 noticing and as a coach it's and and i think 00:19:19.099 --> 00:19:21.559 we can help ourselves we can help train ourselves 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.799 to notice better yeah because i think uh one 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.720 of if i reflect on myself as a more novice coach 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:33.980 i was desperate to tell what I knew about cricket. 00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:37.279 That's human nature. I think it is. I think that's 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.000 almost like the development curve, isn't it? 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:41.079 I think I've got some stuff I want to tell you. 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:42.880 There's a bit of insecurity there as well, isn't 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.500 there? So you're trying to constantly prove yourself, 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.759 whereas when you're more confident, you can sit 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.420 back and let things take natural course. Yeah, 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:52.880 I agree. I agree, definitely. And you're trying 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:54.980 to prove to yourself and others that you know 00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:58.019 some stuff about the game. So I think if there 00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:01.720 was some sort of a graph of myself as a... coach 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.420 20 years ago versus myself as a coach now one 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:07.220 of the simple things that would have shifted 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:10.839 would have been the amount I was speaking in 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.940 any interaction versus the amount I was listening 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:15.220 which is ironic because I'm talking a lot for 00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:17.339 this for the purpose of this but yeah I think 00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:20.900 if you were to map my coaching sessions then 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:24.460 to now I would I would hope in any coaching interaction 00:20:24.460 --> 00:20:28.940 now I'm listening significantly more than I'm 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.900 talking one of the golden things about communicating 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:34.779 is asking questions and not having a preconceived 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:36.980 answer in your mind and i am now going to be 00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:39.460 incredibly hypocritical and go back to the question 00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:42.299 i asked a couple ago about what's the difference 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:44.940 between players who you click with straight away 00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:47.079 and players who it takes a while with and i'm 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.240 just going to throw into the melting pot the 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.200 idea that maybe just as characters you're more 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.240 compatible with some players to others perhaps 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.720 more similar experiences or from similar backgrounds 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.200 or whatever and the other point I was going to 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.740 make is it depends a little bit in the environment 00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:04.700 in which you're working and the way the sessions 00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:07.519 have been set up so in your sort of power base 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:09.839 as a coach and your it can be very different 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.839 how that relationship then develops yeah absolutely 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.579 it's really complex it really is and then there's 00:21:15.579 --> 00:21:17.819 loads of power like you say power dynamics going 00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:20.140 on if you're a coach who's also selecting the 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:22.480 team what you know what impact does that have 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.200 you know i i actually used to love being the 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.660 assistant coach you're the go -between exactly 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:30.220 yeah and and you've got that wonderful position 00:21:30.509 --> 00:21:32.930 where you can pretty much say to the players, 00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:34.769 well, I'm not picking the team, so I'm just here 00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:38.029 to help. And that's a really nice place. Coaching 00:21:38.029 --> 00:21:41.210 is grounded, I think, in trust. If you can develop 00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:44.109 trust with a player, then everything opens up. 00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:47.650 But to your point, what is it that... takes us 00:21:47.650 --> 00:21:50.049 to that place and it could be familiarity with 00:21:50.049 --> 00:21:53.890 the person could be that you've got some some 00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:56.390 things in common or it might just be that as 00:21:56.390 --> 00:21:58.950 a coach you're able to find out about the player 00:21:58.950 --> 00:22:00.630 and acknowledge and validate what they're what 00:22:00.630 --> 00:22:02.130 they're saying to you you've got a trait that 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:04.650 they really value or on the contrary you've got 00:22:04.650 --> 00:22:06.190 something about your personality they really 00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:09.390 yeah take objection to and that i'm just going 00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:12.430 to pick you up on that assistant coach role and 00:22:12.430 --> 00:22:14.470 i always think it's a bit of a shame that In 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:16.869 the coaching world, there seems to be a natural 00:22:16.869 --> 00:22:20.150 progression and eagerness to become the head 00:22:20.150 --> 00:22:22.710 coach. And actually, some people are much better 00:22:22.710 --> 00:22:24.529 off staying as an assistant coach because it 00:22:24.529 --> 00:22:26.390 suits them better, but also they're really good 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:28.869 at it. And it's quite a different role, as you 00:22:28.869 --> 00:22:30.730 say, different set of responsibilities as soon 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:32.309 as you become the head coach. I'm always fascinated 00:22:32.309 --> 00:22:35.470 in the differences in those two. Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:39.109 And the modern day head coach, certainly in the 00:22:39.109 --> 00:22:41.509 professional game and in professional academies, 00:22:41.509 --> 00:22:44.799 for example, a lot of what... is required is 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:47.839 managing others so there's less actual coaching 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.819 of players whereas an assistant if you become 00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:53.420 the head coach yes sorry so as a head coach you 00:22:53.420 --> 00:22:56.359 you often now having to manage this multi -disciplinary 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:58.720 team so you are doing some coaching but you're 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.579 probably doing an even split of coaching and 00:23:00.579 --> 00:23:03.319 managing others recruitment and budgets and all 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.019 sorts of sports whereas whereas an assistant 00:23:06.019 --> 00:23:09.619 coach one would expect your pretty much just 00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:11.759 coaching so for me that sounds more desirable 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.720 yeah it's a lot more fun potentially it's just 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.140 a shame isn't it that so many people sometimes 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:19.519 skip through that assistant coach role yeah quickly 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:22.829 and then end up getting immersed in head coach 00:23:22.829 --> 00:23:24.369 right I suppose it's a bit like a teacher and 00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:26.089 a head teacher isn't it you become a head teacher 00:23:26.089 --> 00:23:28.210 at a school you're suddenly a head business person 00:23:28.210 --> 00:23:31.509 rather than a head teacher and this is not necessarily 00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:34.630 the the same as the kind of car best car salesman 00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:36.990 becomes a car sales manager and then it's not 00:23:36.990 --> 00:23:38.630 about selling cars it's about managing others 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:42.369 but there is a danger that actually someone who's 00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:44.150 really good at coaching becomes the head coach, 00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:45.789 and that actually takes them away from the thing 00:23:45.789 --> 00:23:47.609 they're really good at. But yeah, no, it's a 00:23:47.609 --> 00:23:51.789 fascinating dynamic, for sure. Actually, we haven't 00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:53.650 even touched on what you're currently doing now. 00:23:53.710 --> 00:23:55.230 So you finished at Southampton a couple of years 00:23:55.230 --> 00:23:59.099 back, and now? Set up my own... consultancy business 00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.400 i'm a performance consultant these days apparently 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:05.480 yeah and i'm really lucky that i now have a i 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:08.460 guess a client base so i work i do quite a lot 00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:12.279 of work in football still so i work with a premier 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:14.480 league club and i work with the premier league 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:16.420 as a body working across a range of their coach 00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:19.480 development programs and then also i'm doing 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.279 some work with england cricket at the moment 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.960 supporting some some coaches and then i work 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.660 in the corporate space as well doing team coaching 00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:28.779 and executive coaching so it's a lot it's still 00:24:28.779 --> 00:24:31.240 grounded everything i do is grounded in coaching 00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:34.599 I'm just incredibly lucky to work across a variety 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:36.619 of different environments. It sounds great because 00:24:36.619 --> 00:24:38.599 it keeps it interesting then, doesn't it? So 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:40.740 you don't get bogged down doing months and months 00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:43.019 on end churning out the same course to the same 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:45.859 group. You're mixing around and there must be 00:24:45.859 --> 00:24:48.519 a good variety there. Absolutely. I'm absolutely 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.990 loving this current state of life. it partly 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:53.809 it felt like the right thing at the right time 00:24:53.809 --> 00:24:56.670 also my kids are an age where i would like a 00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:58.890 little bit more autonomy over my schedule so 00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:00.569 it's nice to have the give myself the occasional 00:25:00.569 --> 00:25:04.089 day off but you're absolutely right tim the the 00:25:04.089 --> 00:25:07.849 variety i think also stimulates so much thinking 00:25:07.849 --> 00:25:11.250 in me you know a week ago i was working with 00:25:11.250 --> 00:25:13.670 the legal team of a pharmaceutical company and 00:25:13.670 --> 00:25:15.900 then Earlier today, I've been working with a 00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:18.779 group of Premier League academy coaches on their 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:21.519 coaching. The difference of their environments 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.079 creates thinking in me. I have to be on my feet 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:27.859 and agile. Yet at the heart of it, it's grounded 00:25:27.859 --> 00:25:29.859 in similar principles. So it's great. I love 00:25:29.859 --> 00:25:32.099 the variety. And the best coaches are thieves, 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:34.140 as I always say. Yeah, they are. I love that. 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.180 So you just nick ideas from all over. Never give 00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.039 anyone any credit, but just take, I thought of 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:40.640 this this morning. Yeah, they are. And that's 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.900 what I've consistently done. I've been really 00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:46.220 lucky. And I would encourage anyone to get out 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.119 of their own environment periodically and go 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.759 and observe other environments, whether that's 00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:54.799 in other sports or other businesses, because 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:56.720 you'll see things and you'll be able to take 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.380 them and put them back into your environment. 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.660 Yeah, but I've been so lucky. I just wander around 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:02.859 stealing ideas off people and then claiming them 00:26:02.859 --> 00:26:04.559 as my own. Yeah, that's what we all have to do. 00:26:04.619 --> 00:26:06.759 And actually, that's why it's great to have so 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.200 many volunteer coaches in cricket, but also a 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.740 lot of coaches who do a day or two a week. and 00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.640 have a whole different professional world, and 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.480 they can bring some of the skills into that cricket. 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.059 And I always think with coaches as well, some 00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:23.599 coaches are very fortunate, aren't they, to work 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.819 in a sports hall alongside different really good 00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:28.779 people, and then you can learn a lot, whereas 00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:32.539 if you're in your own little silo, nicking ideas 00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:34.880 becomes impossible, doesn't it? It does, and 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.130 again, any coaches who are... working in isolation 00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:40.289 I'd really and you know we'll always say this 00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:42.589 on the coaching courses won't we which is a great 00:26:42.589 --> 00:26:45.430 breeding ground for this create some sort of 00:26:45.430 --> 00:26:48.190 a network around you of of other coaches that 00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:49.869 you get on with that you can just reach out to 00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:53.450 and chat about coaching because the danger is 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:56.450 you just continue to deliver the same thing you 00:26:56.450 --> 00:26:58.430 know I've always thought of myself as a practitioner 00:26:58.430 --> 00:27:01.109 that each year I want to look back and think 00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:03.069 what I was doing the previous year wasn't as 00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:05.690 good as I'm doing now like I constantly want 00:27:05.690 --> 00:27:08.109 to get better at things and i constantly want 00:27:08.109 --> 00:27:11.690 to be stimulated by people or information so 00:27:11.690 --> 00:27:14.680 yeah Any stimulus you can get from other people 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.759 is really helpful. Great. Well, it's been brilliant 00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.059 catching up with you. I've thoroughly enjoyed 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:19.680 that. We've covered some areas that I wasn't 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.480 planning to at all, but that's the joy of this, 00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:23.180 isn't it? We can go off in any direction we like. 00:27:23.420 --> 00:27:26.019 And it sounded like the coffee cups are being 00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:27.960 sorted out. We're in this lovely service station 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:31.180 just off the M4, and I think it's time we got 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:33.339 back on the motorway. So, Brunchy, thank you 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:34.880 very much for your time. Really appreciate it. 00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:36.500 It's an absolute pleasure. Great to speak to 00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:38.960 you again, Tim. Iain Brunnschweiler. Thanks to him 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.779 for stopping off at the service station to have 00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:43.039 a chat with Tim. All the glamorous locations 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:45.720 and no expense spared for The icoachcricket 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.380 Podcast. Tim will be at another exciting location 00:27:48.380 --> 00:27:51.039 in the next episode. But for now, thanks for 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:51.359 listening.