You're listening to the The icoahcricket Podcast.
In this episode, Tim Dellor catches up with Iain
Brunnschweiler, once upon a time a player and coach
at Hampshire and UCB and still very much involved
in coaching. He works as a coach development
consultant. Much of his time is spent working
in football and with the Premier League at St
George's Park. But as he's been telling Tim,
the last few years have seen him dip into a wide
range of sports. And like all coaches, both Brunchie
and Tim drive lots of miles every week. So where
better to meet them? Cheveley Service Station.
What a wonderful spot to meet at Cheveley. Yeah,
lovely to see you, Tim. And yeah, like you say,
I haven't seen you for years, but obviously we
interacted quite a lot in the past. Yeah, well,
let's go back, shall we, a few years. Your journey
started at Hampshire, head of S &C there. That
was quite a long time ago then, wasn't that?
Yeah, gosh, that's many years ago. I've had many
lives since then. I played at Hampshire, had
five seasons as a pro, which was great fun. And
then, yeah, I did my uni degrees and coaching
badges, but I did a combined role of S &C and
coaching. So I started coaching the academy there,
as well as providing S &C to the professionals.
So that's probably, gosh, 2006, 2007. Really?
So we're cracking off at nearly 20 years since
you did that role. And you were one of the first,
I think, weren't you? Not every county had, and
I know you were saying about being an assistant
coach as well as S &C specific responsibilities,
but... quite new to that and leading the way
a little bit? Well, I don't know if I was leading
the way, but I was giving it a go. Yeah, I think
it was a time in the game where there was certainly
a desire for us to be more professionalised and
the athleticism in the game to be given a bit
of focus. So yeah, it wasn't always easy with
the squad. We had a few guys who had very high
skill level, but their lifestyle could have been
adapted slightly. You know, none of them the
late, late, great Shane Warne. Trying to get
him to do exercise wasn't easy. But yeah, it
was a great time. Lots of fab players, good coaching
team as well. So yeah, it was a really enjoyable
time. And just to zip forward 20 years, do you
think that's changed much? So you must look at
S &C coaches now, and I know that's not your
bag particularly, your specialism now, but do
you think it's easier for S &C specialists now?
Maybe it's more accepted in professional sport
that that is a part of it, whereas 20 years ago
it was all a bit new and funky, wasn't it? And
you did get a few. old school players who are
maybe a bit more resistant to it than you do
nowadays yeah 100 yeah i think in in the modern
game in all sports now we multi -disciplinary
teams we have sports scientists snc coaches you
know physios analysts it's very much a part of
the package these days um which is good it's
a good thing um and it's the way that sport has
progressed and we've learned a lot i'm sure in
the last 20 years i was going to say that i did
a sports science degree Oh, I can't know. It's
not 30 years ago, surely. Let's say 25 years
ago. And it's completely out of date. So when
I talk to sports scientists now, I don't really...
have much to bring to a conversation whereas
i don't know if it's the same in those specialist
roles you think oh yeah i mean the the level
and depth of knowledge in i'd say all of the
ologies now has grown hugely in the last 20 years
and yeah gosh i look at you know i'm lucky now
in my current space i interact with lots of different
sporting teams elite sporting teams and some
of the work that's going on from sports scientists
and ssc coaches is ridiculous you know i was
just trying to get the lads to run around the
park a bit and stop drinking five pints of Guinness
every night. So yeah, it's come on loads, I think
broadly for the best. I think the reality is
often coaches and S &C coaches can come to loggerheads.
I don't know how many S &C coaches will be listening
to this, but they're certainly, you know, in
terms of loading. Coaches want more and S &C
coaches want less, which can be a problem. But
I think when the sort of multidisciplinary teams
work well together, it can be brilliant for the
players. I won't talk too much about S &C because
that wasn't what was on my plan at all. But I
just remember you doing quite a lot of heart
rates of players. And you had this really cool
bit of research on it. I think it was a T20 game
and you had your Hampshire opening batters with
the heart rate monitors on. And you were showing
us how their heart rates, even before... face
of delivery just sky high and it was like a look
this is why you need to be fit because just for
the adrenaline that's coursing through your veins
this is This is the sort of stress that's on
a player. Yeah, well, that's a remarkable piece
of memory from you. Yeah, I remember it really
well. Yeah, I was fascinated at the time by the
human body and how it responded under pressure
and under the load of exercise. And yeah, so
the guys were great. They tolerated me as I sort
of wandered around trying to put heart rate straps
on them live in matches. So we had, you know,
proper live T20 games monitoring the heart rate,
which I think, yeah, you know, given that this
is 20 -odd. years ago that wasn't normal practice
so the results that came out were fascinating
and yeah the guys were up at nearly maximal heart
rate as they were ready to face the next delivery
so i was kind of doing it as a bit of a research
project and also just to validate the fitness
work that we were doing with them and we got
huge buy -in from the guys and in fact i wish
i'd had almost like a a team photo of them you
know with their shirts off before and after a
couple of years intervention because we went
from being you know with the greatest of respects
some sort of not particularly uh fit guys some
of the guys were unbelievably fit and you know
in really good shape and and actually this correlated
with Hampshire having a really successful period
particularly in the white ball game you know
we had a big emphasis on fielding and fitness
and athleticism I'm proud to have played a role
in that. It wasn't all about fitness. We had
some bloody good players, but, you know, I think
it did play a role. I wasn't expecting to talk
as long about S &C, but that was really interesting.
That took me back a bit, didn't it? And it's
fascinating how that particular genre has moved
on. Let's move on then to what you're doing now
and what you've done in between. So the last
15 years, your career, I think, has been really
interesting because you've meandered around,
haven't you, doing different roles where a lot
of people are a bit more linear. Yeah, gosh,
I'll try and summarise the last 15 years. Having
worked at Hampshire, I then was very privileged
to take a role with England Cricket, where I
initially started with the England under -17
development squad, so I was the head coach of
that, and then that expanded to me working with
the under -19s and 17s, so I had... Five or six
great years. I mean, pretty much a dream job,
charging around the world with the best players
in the country and us playing in India, South
Africa, Australia, etc. And did you... see a
few of them in those days and subsequently have
been completely unsurprised by their progress
to the dizzy heights yeah the likes of sam curran
ollie pope ben ducat saki mamoud you know all
lads who we worked with and toured with the under
19s the overton twins ben folks uh you know there's
loads of lads who uh we interacted with a good
long list equally oh there are a few that you
remember you don't need to name them obviously
but that you remember you thought they're gonna
be a gun and have basically fallen by the wayside
a bit and perhaps not met the potential expectation
you had with them yeah i mean i think some of
the guys i've just talked about would have probably
been some of the guys we highlighted with the
highest potential at the time but there's certainly
a few that we had really high hopes for who've
lots of them have played First class cricket,
when I look at the team photos, there's lots
of guys who've, you know, the majority have gone
on and played first class cricket. So that in
itself is a success. Yeah, 100%. And at the heart
of it, there's still a number of the guys who
I trade messages with or I send them a well done.
And I love seeing anyone I've coached who I see
doing well. It's just a brilliant feeling. I'm
sure every coach can empathise with that. That
when you see, especially young players, you know,
many of these young guys, we were interacting
with them as 15, 16 year olds. You know, they're
in that period of their lives when there's so
much evolution of them as a person. To see that
to them being fully fledged internationals or
first class players just gives you a sense of
pride. So, yeah, wonderful. Great time. So you
did that for a while. Yeah. And with some success
and then. But you're not doing that now. So tell
us a little bit about after that where your career
has taken you. Yeah, so I had a brief foray in
the Olympic sport world. So I was lucky enough
to lead a team of coach developers into a number
of Olympic sports. So that was a project funded
by UK Sport. It wasn't my ideal job because it
was very strategic and it was... Just too far
from the grass for me. It sounds really good.
Because you look at the range of Olympic sports
that you have. One week you'd be trampolining
and then you'd be next week on the rowing lake
and then maybe a bit of fencing or equestrianism.
It sounds really good fun to have that range.
You must have got some learning out of that at
least. Oh, it was enormous learning for many,
many reasons. Yeah, I mean, I interacted with...
from british archery to british cycling the smaller
sorts to the biggest sports i learned absolutely
heaps firstly i didn't know anything about many
of the sports that could be an advantage can't
it i'm always slightly wary when you see people
coming into cricket who don't have cricket knowledge
but the clever operators they can really make
that a sort of super strength can't they and
i don't know whether you found that going in
and you just concentrate on the coaching skills
rather than get distracted with all the tactics
and the techniques and yeah i think and you I've
heard the phrase as sort of a naive expert recently,
and I think that's probably what I was. I had
a level of expertise in coaching, so I knew quite
a lot about coaching. I've been coaching a lot.
I knew nothing about archery or these sports.
However, I could talk about connecting with the
person and how to understand their motivation
and their strengths and their weaknesses. So
loads of transfer and loads of learning. As I
said, it didn't feel like the right job for me.
I was looking for a job that was UK -based at
the time because I'd had children by this stage
and my wife had mentioned that being out of the
country for months at a time wasn't her preference.
Yeah, I know that conversation. Yeah, I think
many of us would have had it. I've always been
a Southampton Football Club fan. I'm a born and
raised Saints fan. It's a bit tricky at the moment
to be a fan. However, I'd got some links with
the club and one of the senior guys at the club
contacted me and said, look, we've got a new
role coming up. As a coach developer with our
academy coaches, would you be interested in applying
for it? So I went and met them and ended up getting
the job. Is that normal for a football club to
have an entire branch of coach development? I
mean, cricket obviously has their coach development
department, but you don't have each county. having
their own coach developers is that usual in football
circles well it is now and the premier league
themselves funded this huge project with the
ambition of having a coach developer or head
of coaching at every single club and so this
southampton were actually ahead of the curve
as they often have been in these spaces so they'd
already had a head of coaching in place and who
had who'd started delivering in -house coach
development and then they they'd expanded that
so they wanted me to come I spent six seasons
at the club. I absolutely loved it. Anyone from
cricket who comes into football will know it's
a bit of a different game. So it certainly took
me a while. I was very aware. It's more volatile,
let's be honest. It's a more volatile sport.
Within the first year, I think we were on to
our third manager, second ownership group. second
director of football. Whereas if I compare that
to Hampshire, Giles White, who's a great mate.
Great stability. Great stability. Giles White
was the director of cricket when I left and he's
still the director of cricket now. So there's
a very different level of volatility. And I was
very aware that if I got this wrong, I could
just get booted out very quickly. You have played
football, Ed. decent level hadn't you yes I did
have to point this out to a few of the I had
been paid to play football so I had a certain
level of knowledge of the game I love football
love football and cricket if you're predominantly
a cricket guy I don't know if I can call you
that or whether you'd thank me for saying that
but I think of you as a first and foremost a
cricket guy going into work in other sports so
in your time working at uk sport and dipping
into your trampolining and your fencing i suppose
the key thing is being really authentic and honest
with what you know what more to the point what
you don't know whereas if you try and blag it
go in and tell people about their foils and FAs
and the fencing, they're probably going to go,
ooh. Yes, yeah, totally right. And I've managed,
I've been very fortunate and privileged to have
spent seven years now with two different Premier
League clubs. I don't see my role as challenging
the coaches on their tactical ability. I'm very
comfortable in that space, but I've tried to
make it my specialism to look at their coaching
skills. How do they interact with players? How
do they set up their coaching environment? Where
are they drawing information? When are they giving
information? And being a bit of a sounding board
for coaches. So, yeah, I mean, anyone who's got
deep knowledge in a sport and has coached a sport,
I think if you pause for a moment and think about
the transferable skills to another sport... Coaching
is coaching. I'm very lucky now to be coaching
not just people in sport, I coach people in business
as an executive coach, but the fundamentals are
exactly the same. Can you attend to the human
in front of you, find out what's going on for
them and help them consider what they might want
to go after next? If you're going to be a cricket
coach or a football coach or a tennis coach,
clearly to deliver to players you need to be
above the line in terms of your knowledge of
the game. However, I've found as a developer
of coaches, it's more around the learning around
learning and how do people learn and that's transferable
across sports. So actually it can be an advantage
to get away from that distraction of the technique
and the nuances because we're all badgers at
heart, aren't we? So if you're watching cricket,
you have your own view on... how the game's developing
tactically, you want input. But if you're...
I thought I'd be more impressed with my foils
and epee reference, by the way. I don't know
anything about fencing. Neither do I. But if
you are trying to get too engrossed in that,
clearly that's not going to go well. So, yeah,
it could be a serious advantage being an outsider
and seeing it from outside. I think so. And I
guess you're making me think now, when I came
into Southampton, I think one of the reasons
it worked was that when I interviewed... interviewed
with the technical director and one of the senior
guys at the academy and they knew that my background
was not as a football coach and they were very
comfortable with that and they didn't put me
under any pressure to go and joust in terms of
my football knowledge with you know the under
21s coaches at the time. were two guys, one who'd
played over 100 international games of football
and the other had played something like 400 pro
games, 200 in the Premier League. So if I'd wandered
over to them and tried to move their mannequins
out of the way... You want to head it like this.
Yeah, I think that wasn't my role. My role was
to develop a relationship with them and to start...
talking to them about how they were going about
their coaching and I've learned that and this
is the same with players as it is with when you're
trying to coach coaches like some things feel
great after one conversation some things take
20. or 50 conversations and that taking your
time with the person in front of you you're trying
to work with is is vital because again if i tried
to go in and got in two -footed to use some footballing
parlance you know i i'd have got sent off you
know to carry on that really analogy and whereas
When I went in there, probably the guys who were
coaching the under 10s and 11s, they were happy
to interact with me straight away and to talk
football coaching. Those more experienced guys
who were probably a little bit more wary, naturally,
I had to take my time with them. And it's the
same with players, isn't it? Exactly the same
with players. I remember talking to batting coaches
over the years who have been at the ECB, saying
they've had experiences of going on England tours
and standing there videoing stuff and doing throwdowns
and the batter's not engaging at all. seemingly
wanting any advice and you just have to wait
your time. build up that trust and that relationship
before you can start to make any interventions
and it is a long process isn't it with some players
some players you just click straight away and
off you go but some you just have to bide your
time yeah and a very simple phrase of connect
before you correct i think is valid here in its
but just because you've had one conversation
doesn't mean you've connected i think that's
the real you know coaching is it's human skills
ultimately you know it's about the human creating
that connection some people It's like that. I'm
clicking my fingers. This is a podcast. Some
people, it happens straight away, and you can
feel and sense that connection. And with others,
you've got to take more time. Those that it doesn't
click with straight away, but I think you're
right. If you bide your time, you can make it
work with anybody. But do you think that's your
personality, the player's personality, the situation
and environment? I mean, what is it that means
that some people you connect with straight away
and others it takes ages and ages? What is the
difference? Yeah, wow, gosh. If I had a PhD in
neuroscience, I'd be able to give you an answer.
My experience is there's lots of variables. People
are constantly evaluating each other and they're
looking for... I heard this term... serve and
return so that you know in tennis as a person
we're serving stuff out to the person we're talking
to and that can be body language actual language
verbal cues non -verbal cues and then we're receiving
something back and there's something going on
between humans that will give us an indication
of whether the person in front of us is connecting
or not now i can't tell you what that is but
i think you just get a sense of Those who are
aware and are open to it will be able to get
a sense of what's going on in front of them.
I think as a coach, whether under 15 in the nets
at the local club or whether you're Brendan McCullum
working with one of the England guys, when you're
literally there one -on -one with someone, there's
an opportunity to be aware of what's coming back
at you. And I think one of my biggest learnings
as a coach is around my ability to listen. And
when I say listen, it's not just the words, it's
almost listening with all my senses. Yeah, and
tenor up, so understanding and just actually
it's noticing stuff, isn't it? It's noticing.
It's no more technical than that, just seeing
everything that's going on and understanding
the player. what mood they're in yeah how they're
feeling that particular day and how that opens
communication there yeah absolutely and it's
great that's a great word it's noticing it's
noticing and as a coach it's and and i think
we can help ourselves we can help train ourselves
to notice better yeah because i think uh one
of if i reflect on myself as a more novice coach
i was desperate to tell what I knew about cricket.
That's human nature. I think it is. I think that's
almost like the development curve, isn't it?
I think I've got some stuff I want to tell you.
There's a bit of insecurity there as well, isn't
there? So you're trying to constantly prove yourself,
whereas when you're more confident, you can sit
back and let things take natural course. Yeah,
I agree. I agree, definitely. And you're trying
to prove to yourself and others that you know
some stuff about the game. So I think if there
was some sort of a graph of myself as a... coach
20 years ago versus myself as a coach now one
of the simple things that would have shifted
would have been the amount I was speaking in
any interaction versus the amount I was listening
which is ironic because I'm talking a lot for
this for the purpose of this but yeah I think
if you were to map my coaching sessions then
to now I would I would hope in any coaching interaction
now I'm listening significantly more than I'm
talking one of the golden things about communicating
is asking questions and not having a preconceived
answer in your mind and i am now going to be
incredibly hypocritical and go back to the question
i asked a couple ago about what's the difference
between players who you click with straight away
and players who it takes a while with and i'm
just going to throw into the melting pot the
idea that maybe just as characters you're more
compatible with some players to others perhaps
more similar experiences or from similar backgrounds
or whatever and the other point I was going to
make is it depends a little bit in the environment
in which you're working and the way the sessions
have been set up so in your sort of power base
as a coach and your it can be very different
how that relationship then develops yeah absolutely
it's really complex it really is and then there's
loads of power like you say power dynamics going
on if you're a coach who's also selecting the
team what you know what impact does that have
you know i i actually used to love being the
assistant coach you're the go -between exactly
yeah and and you've got that wonderful position
where you can pretty much say to the players,
well, I'm not picking the team, so I'm just here
to help. And that's a really nice place. Coaching
is grounded, I think, in trust. If you can develop
trust with a player, then everything opens up.
But to your point, what is it that... takes us
to that place and it could be familiarity with
the person could be that you've got some some
things in common or it might just be that as
a coach you're able to find out about the player
and acknowledge and validate what they're what
they're saying to you you've got a trait that
they really value or on the contrary you've got
something about your personality they really
yeah take objection to and that i'm just going
to pick you up on that assistant coach role and
i always think it's a bit of a shame that In
the coaching world, there seems to be a natural
progression and eagerness to become the head
coach. And actually, some people are much better
off staying as an assistant coach because it
suits them better, but also they're really good
at it. And it's quite a different role, as you
say, different set of responsibilities as soon
as you become the head coach. I'm always fascinated
in the differences in those two. Yeah, absolutely.
And the modern day head coach, certainly in the
professional game and in professional academies,
for example, a lot of what... is required is
managing others so there's less actual coaching
of players whereas an assistant if you become
the head coach yes sorry so as a head coach you
you often now having to manage this multi -disciplinary
team so you are doing some coaching but you're
probably doing an even split of coaching and
managing others recruitment and budgets and all
sorts of sports whereas whereas an assistant
coach one would expect your pretty much just
coaching so for me that sounds more desirable
yeah it's a lot more fun potentially it's just
a shame isn't it that so many people sometimes
skip through that assistant coach role yeah quickly
and then end up getting immersed in head coach
right I suppose it's a bit like a teacher and
a head teacher isn't it you become a head teacher
at a school you're suddenly a head business person
rather than a head teacher and this is not necessarily
the the same as the kind of car best car salesman
becomes a car sales manager and then it's not
about selling cars it's about managing others
but there is a danger that actually someone who's
really good at coaching becomes the head coach,
and that actually takes them away from the thing
they're really good at. But yeah, no, it's a
fascinating dynamic, for sure. Actually, we haven't
even touched on what you're currently doing now.
So you finished at Southampton a couple of years
back, and now? Set up my own... consultancy business
i'm a performance consultant these days apparently
yeah and i'm really lucky that i now have a i
guess a client base so i work i do quite a lot
of work in football still so i work with a premier
league club and i work with the premier league
as a body working across a range of their coach
development programs and then also i'm doing
some work with england cricket at the moment
supporting some some coaches and then i work
in the corporate space as well doing team coaching
and executive coaching so it's a lot it's still
grounded everything i do is grounded in coaching
I'm just incredibly lucky to work across a variety
of different environments. It sounds great because
it keeps it interesting then, doesn't it? So
you don't get bogged down doing months and months
on end churning out the same course to the same
group. You're mixing around and there must be
a good variety there. Absolutely. I'm absolutely
loving this current state of life. it partly
it felt like the right thing at the right time
also my kids are an age where i would like a
little bit more autonomy over my schedule so
it's nice to have the give myself the occasional
day off but you're absolutely right tim the the
variety i think also stimulates so much thinking
in me you know a week ago i was working with
the legal team of a pharmaceutical company and
then Earlier today, I've been working with a
group of Premier League academy coaches on their
coaching. The difference of their environments
creates thinking in me. I have to be on my feet
and agile. Yet at the heart of it, it's grounded
in similar principles. So it's great. I love
the variety. And the best coaches are thieves,
as I always say. Yeah, they are. I love that.
So you just nick ideas from all over. Never give
anyone any credit, but just take, I thought of
this this morning. Yeah, they are. And that's
what I've consistently done. I've been really
lucky. And I would encourage anyone to get out
of their own environment periodically and go
and observe other environments, whether that's
in other sports or other businesses, because
you'll see things and you'll be able to take
them and put them back into your environment.
Yeah, but I've been so lucky. I just wander around
stealing ideas off people and then claiming them
as my own. Yeah, that's what we all have to do.
And actually, that's why it's great to have so
many volunteer coaches in cricket, but also a
lot of coaches who do a day or two a week. and
have a whole different professional world, and
they can bring some of the skills into that cricket.
And I always think with coaches as well, some
coaches are very fortunate, aren't they, to work
in a sports hall alongside different really good
people, and then you can learn a lot, whereas
if you're in your own little silo, nicking ideas
becomes impossible, doesn't it? It does, and
again, any coaches who are... working in isolation
I'd really and you know we'll always say this
on the coaching courses won't we which is a great
breeding ground for this create some sort of
a network around you of of other coaches that
you get on with that you can just reach out to
and chat about coaching because the danger is
you just continue to deliver the same thing you
know I've always thought of myself as a practitioner
that each year I want to look back and think
what I was doing the previous year wasn't as
good as I'm doing now like I constantly want
to get better at things and i constantly want
to be stimulated by people or information so
yeah Any stimulus you can get from other people
is really helpful. Great. Well, it's been brilliant
catching up with you. I've thoroughly enjoyed
that. We've covered some areas that I wasn't
planning to at all, but that's the joy of this,
isn't it? We can go off in any direction we like.
And it sounded like the coffee cups are being
sorted out. We're in this lovely service station
just off the M4, and I think it's time we got
back on the motorway. So, Brunchy, thank you
very much for your time. Really appreciate it.
It's an absolute pleasure. Great to speak to
you again, Tim. Iain Brunnschweiler. Thanks to him
for stopping off at the service station to have
a chat with Tim. All the glamorous locations
and no expense spared for The icoachcricket
Podcast. Tim will be at another exciting location
in the next episode. But for now, thanks for
listening.