WEBVTT 00:00:08.650 --> 00:00:11.449 Hi everyone and welcome to the Norfolk Early 00:00:11.449 --> 00:00:14.830 Years podcast Let's Talk series, a show that 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:16.890 helps early years practitioners and professionals 00:00:16.890 --> 00:00:19.510 understand more about effectively supporting 00:00:19.510 --> 00:00:21.570 children's speech, language and communication 00:00:21.570 --> 00:00:25.250 development in the early years. I'm Ashley Cater 00:00:25.250 --> 00:00:28.120 and I'm Jo Patterson. And we are Early Years 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:29.960 Communication and Language Development officers 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:32.399 within Norfolk County Council's Early Years team. 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.179 And today we are privileged to be joined by the 00:00:35.179 --> 00:00:37.719 wonderful Anne O 'Connor, independent consultant, 00:00:38.179 --> 00:00:41.560 trainer, author and co -founder of Primed for 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:44.780 Life, a venture which advocates for a wider understanding 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:47.740 of the body as a child's first place of learning. 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.100 In today's episode, we are going to be uncovering 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:52.899 the hidden links between children's physical 00:00:52.899 --> 00:00:55.320 development and their communication development. 00:00:56.060 --> 00:00:58.299 whilst exploring how practitioners can ensure 00:00:58.299 --> 00:01:00.159 that they are offering the best opportunities 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.960 for physical play to their children. So, without 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.239 further ado, let's talk physical development. 00:01:09.980 --> 00:01:12.439 Hi Anne, thanks for joining us for our first 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.879 episode today. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:19.260 Very well. And you? I'm very well, thank you. 00:01:19.739 --> 00:01:22.159 If it's okay with you, we're going to jump straight 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:24.900 into our conversation for today and we're going 00:01:24.900 --> 00:01:28.019 to... start at the very beginning with a little 00:01:28.019 --> 00:01:30.939 bit of background about yourself. So to quote 00:01:30.939 --> 00:01:33.319 your book, Understanding Physical Development 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.879 in the Early Years, Linking Bodies and Minds, 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:40.180 it says, today's children may find their instinctive 00:01:40.180 --> 00:01:43.560 biological drive for movement overruled by adults, 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.879 teachers, learning environments, programs and 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:50.099 policies, actively missing out on the key fundamental 00:01:50.099 --> 00:01:52.640 developments for mind and body that can prime 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.409 them for life. So with this in mind, Anne, what 00:01:55.409 --> 00:01:57.269 is the mission that you're on as an early year 00:01:57.269 --> 00:02:01.790 specialist and how did you end up here? Ah, well, 00:02:02.049 --> 00:02:07.069 perhaps it's worth saying, first of all, that 00:02:07.069 --> 00:02:10.710 I've been around a very long time. I qualified 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:15.500 as a teacher way back last century in 1979. And 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:18.520 I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. Right 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:22.039 from first meeting my first reception teacher, 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:25.699 the lovely Miss Turner, who had a beehive. which 00:02:25.699 --> 00:02:28.800 is a hairdo for those that won't remember, back 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:31.979 in the 60s. And she wore beautiful swishy skirts. 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.159 There was something so wonderfully sensory about 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.939 my first experiences in that reception class 00:02:37.939 --> 00:02:41.199 with the chalk and the crayons and the paper 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:43.400 and the scissors and all these lovely things 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:47.199 that I couldn't wait to get my hands on. And 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:51.009 I... I also knew that I wanted to emulate that 00:02:51.009 --> 00:02:54.009 safe, warm, encouraging and creative environment 00:02:54.009 --> 00:02:56.949 that I'd known right from the beginning of my 00:02:56.949 --> 00:02:59.069 early experience of school. It wasn't always 00:02:59.069 --> 00:03:04.949 like that, but my reception class was. So I trained 00:03:04.949 --> 00:03:07.389 as a teacher and I was trained in what was called 00:03:07.389 --> 00:03:10.689 early years, which back then was from three -year 00:03:10.689 --> 00:03:13.810 -olds to, wait for it, eight, all the way up 00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:17.780 to eight. And then I worked over 24 years, mostly 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:20.340 in infant schools, but also primary schools in 00:03:20.340 --> 00:03:23.419 the East End of London. I did the management 00:03:23.419 --> 00:03:27.120 thing. I had two deputy headships and an extended 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.099 period as an acting head. And then I decided 00:03:30.099 --> 00:03:32.439 to jump off that ladder as the national curriculum 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.259 took hold. And I felt increasingly uncomfortable 00:03:35.259 --> 00:03:38.000 about the direction that education was going 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:41.280 in. So I followed my heart and I went to teach 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.360 a nursery class in a primary school. on the Isle 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:47.080 of Dogs, still in the East End. And then I had 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.259 the good fortune to be asked to create one of 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:52.740 the first all through early years units. So this 00:03:52.740 --> 00:03:55.900 is even before the foundation stage. So we couldn't 00:03:55.900 --> 00:03:58.439 even call them foundation stage units then. But 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:00.259 actually the important thing about this was it 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:03.199 was all through, where nursery and reception 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.599 were completely and totally integrated. Now, 00:04:06.620 --> 00:04:09.060 during this time, I also became an adopted parent 00:04:09.060 --> 00:04:11.979 to a child with a trauma history and a whole 00:04:11.979 --> 00:04:15.780 alphabet of invisible disabilities. And eventually 00:04:15.780 --> 00:04:18.579 I felt it was too much of a struggle for me juggling 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:21.420 his needs and a senior leadership role. So I 00:04:21.420 --> 00:04:23.500 took the big decision to begin working from home, 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:25.939 building up my skills as a consultant, trainer 00:04:25.939 --> 00:04:28.519 and a writer for Nursery World and other publications, 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.579 a lot of which I could do that in the midnight 00:04:31.579 --> 00:04:34.579 hours. But it also kept me connected to the world 00:04:34.579 --> 00:04:37.500 of early years. about which I became even more 00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:40.819 passionate as my son taught me so much about 00:04:40.819 --> 00:04:43.579 the importance of a child's earliest experiences, 00:04:44.019 --> 00:04:47.279 mostly because of what he had missed out on. 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.459 So then you can fast forward a few years and 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:52.959 I had the good fortune to meet Anna Daly, with 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.339 whom I set up Primed for Life, when we discovered 00:04:55.339 --> 00:04:58.420 a mutual passion and curiosity about the way 00:04:58.420 --> 00:05:01.439 children's bodies often get left out of the equation. 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.459 when we're talking about progress and learning 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:06.939 and development, as though physical development 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:09.600 is something that just happens. And if you take 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.740 the physical development learning goals seriously, 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.579 it would seem that all physical development is 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:17.079 about is whether they can make their own way 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.199 to the toilet, holding a pair of scissors safely 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.339 without bumping into anyone. The incredible way 00:05:22.339 --> 00:05:25.360 the body and the brain work together to achieve 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.100 a child's fullest potential. And this is right 00:05:28.100 --> 00:05:30.819 from day one. Actually, no, it's from pre -birth. 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:34.160 So that's how Primed for Life was born and we've 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.540 been privileged to help raise awareness of the 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:39.079 importance of physical development as perhaps 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.959 we like to say the most prime of all the prime 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.000 areas because of the way it is essential for 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.420 both emotional health and for communication and 00:05:47.420 --> 00:05:50.600 language development. But it does feel like it's 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:53.920 an ongoing struggle to fight for that awareness. 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:58.139 Do we have time for a little story here? Anna 00:05:58.139 --> 00:06:01.220 and I were involved in a project where we're 00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:05.819 visiting nurseries and a wonderful little movement 00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:09.160 play scenario was developing with a group of 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.139 children where we were totally following their 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:15.180 lead. But there was this whole range of learning 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:17.480 and creativity and developmental movement happening 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:22.620 right up next to a door, actually, when all of 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:27.220 a sudden there was this children. And the staff 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:29.399 suddenly called all the children to attention 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:33.759 and told them to come away from the door so that 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.720 they could go and line up at the door to go into 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.680 another room for their movement session. And 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.339 this is not to blame the staff. OK, they were 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:44.279 doing it with the best of intentions. This was 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.240 part of their program day. It was part of their 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.579 structure. But the irony was not lost on us that 00:06:49.579 --> 00:06:52.779 so often we have to interfere with the learning 00:06:52.779 --> 00:06:55.500 in order to look like we're doing our jobs properly. 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.439 You know, when in fact the learning was taking 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.680 place there, the movement was happening there, 00:07:01.819 --> 00:07:04.240 you know, right in front of us in an awkward 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.720 spot. Yes. And actually what the children, dare 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:10.759 I say, what the children got from being interrupted, 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:13.319 being made to line up. And these were three year 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.259 olds going into a different room and then doing 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:19.579 something to nursery rhymes. Perhaps was nothing 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:21.860 as powerful, like as powerful as what they were 00:07:21.860 --> 00:07:25.290 doing when we were playing together. And that's 00:07:25.290 --> 00:07:27.569 why it feels so important to us. And I think, 00:07:27.569 --> 00:07:29.430 you know, we're thinking there particularly about 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:31.389 the work that Julie Fisher's been doing, interacting 00:07:31.389 --> 00:07:34.129 or interfering. Yeah. Which really kind of, you 00:07:34.129 --> 00:07:36.230 know, we've got a lot of connection with that. 00:07:36.430 --> 00:07:38.670 So that's our mission, really, to skill everyone 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:41.389 up so that they can fight for children's right 00:07:41.389 --> 00:07:44.029 to allow their brains and their bodies to work 00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:46.769 together. And that so much of what practitioners 00:07:46.769 --> 00:07:50.529 do or would do instinctively when they really 00:07:50.529 --> 00:07:53.069 know their children, those things are way more 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:55.589 valid and valuable. the many of the programs 00:07:55.589 --> 00:07:57.689 that people end up telling them they have to 00:07:57.689 --> 00:08:01.350 buy into. That sounds like an extremely admirable 00:08:01.350 --> 00:08:03.910 mission that you're on, Anne. Well, you know, 00:08:03.990 --> 00:08:06.889 it's turned my hair grey, but, you know, it feels 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:09.689 worthwhile. And it's fun along the way, I have 00:08:09.689 --> 00:08:12.290 to say, you know. Absolutely. What other job 00:08:12.290 --> 00:08:14.689 gives you the opportunity to play as much as 00:08:14.689 --> 00:08:18.389 ours does? Definitely. Thank you so much for 00:08:18.389 --> 00:08:20.170 that, Anne. It was really interesting to hear 00:08:20.170 --> 00:08:22.920 about. You know, your experiences, where you 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.040 started from and your passion for physical developments 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.279 really just come through there. So if we can 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.200 take a bit of a focus on physical development, 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:37.120 can you just explain exactly what we mean when 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.379 we say physical development and help us to understand 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:43.580 what's happening in that child's brain when they 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:47.799 engage in that physical play? Well, have you 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:52.980 got all day? OK, trying to capture that in a 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:56.639 snapshot. I suppose it's fair to say that physical 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.559 development probably includes everything you 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.240 think it includes. And when we ask people, we 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.899 usually hear things like muscles and joints and 00:09:05.899 --> 00:09:08.500 health and exercise and gross and fine motor 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:14.039 skills and nutrition. But then multiply it, maybe 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:16.820 to include a million other things like sensory 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:19.759 development and the nervous system. And then 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.000 we can throw in words like interoception and 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.840 proprioception and the vestibular system, sensory 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.100 integration, and stuff that sounds very sciencey 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:31.860 and a bit scary, perhaps. So maybe it would be 00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:33.580 better if we had a better word for it, maybe 00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:35.960 something like neurophysiological development. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.720 Though I'm not even sure if that's the right 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.740 term here, because I'm not a brain scientist. 00:09:41.980 --> 00:09:45.059 I wouldn't even call myself any kind of a scientist. 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:49.330 But actually... That is exactly what we and all 00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:51.970 of us who work with babies and young children, 00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:54.330 that's what we are. We are in the business of 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:57.750 growing children's brains and their bodies. So 00:09:57.750 --> 00:09:59.590 actually having a little bit of neuroscience 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:02.750 under our belts gives us the words and the signs 00:10:02.750 --> 00:10:05.350 to be able to advocate for our children. And 00:10:05.350 --> 00:10:08.450 that is all part of physical development. Because 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:11.830 typically the brain needs the body and the body 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:14.330 needs the brain for them to grow to the best 00:10:14.330 --> 00:10:17.029 of the child's capability. and this might be 00:10:17.029 --> 00:10:19.370 in ways that we understand as typical development 00:10:19.370 --> 00:10:23.490 or it might even be atypical in which case it's 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:25.649 even more important that we understand things 00:10:25.649 --> 00:10:28.769 like sensory integration so we can understand 00:10:28.769 --> 00:10:31.029 why some children might be sensitive to things 00:10:31.029 --> 00:10:34.090 like touch or sound and why some children can't 00:10:34.090 --> 00:10:37.029 seem to get enough sensory sensation so they'll 00:10:37.029 --> 00:10:39.649 go seeking sensations in ways that might get 00:10:39.649 --> 00:10:42.330 them into trouble and that often get classified 00:10:42.330 --> 00:10:45.440 as challenging behavior. So the more we understand 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.679 this stuff, the better we are able to understand 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:52.500 our children and our partners and our friends 00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:54.840 and our work colleagues. And you know what? We 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.639 actually understand ourselves better too. So 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.600 to unpick some of those things very simplistically, 00:11:00.899 --> 00:11:04.000 gross motor skills are the big motor movements 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:07.039 that we do involving major parts or maybe even 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.080 all of our bodies. And here's the thing, these 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:13.480 typically need to come first before the fine 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.480 motor skills. So if you take handwriting, for 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.440 example, that's a fine motor skill. But without 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:22.299 lots of experience of moving and feeling control 00:11:22.299 --> 00:11:25.080 of our trunk, both the front and the back, so 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.879 that's our upper body, and in particular our 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:30.720 shoulder and the whole of our arms, and all of 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.840 that takes a good few years of movement experience, 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.639 and especially... We need playful, self -motivated 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.320 experience like climbing, swinging, hanging, 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:43.879 throwing, carrying, pushing, dragging, sweeping. 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.600 All of that needs to be taking place whilst all 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.379 the fine bones and the joints and the tendons 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:53.179 in those little hands and fingers and wrists 00:11:53.179 --> 00:11:56.500 are taking their own time to develop. For the 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:58.799 fine motor skills to develop well and efficiently 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.960 so that then handwriting and all those other 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.919 fine motor skills can develop with ease and confidence. 00:12:05.299 --> 00:12:09.000 So, you know, the watchword is gross motor skills 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.960 before fine motor skills. And then filling in 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.820 the gaps. If we're seeing children who we perhaps 00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:17.860 think should have acquired all of those gross 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:20.980 motor skills and are ready for handwriting and 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:22.799 fine motor skills, and then actually looking 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.320 at them, being able to observe their play and 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.399 discovering that, in fact, there are some gaps 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.100 there. But having said all of that, it is important 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:33.019 to stress too that physical development isn't 00:12:33.019 --> 00:12:34.840 just something that happens on the big stuff 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:38.299 out in the playground or outdoors. Children are 00:12:38.299 --> 00:12:42.000 and should be constantly on the move. And a lot 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.399 of really important developmental movement play 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.440 can happen indoors and as part of your continuous 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:51.539 provision and not just in a programmed session 00:12:51.539 --> 00:12:54.029 for it. And the same is true of the other word 00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:56.649 I threw in before, the vestibular system, which 00:12:56.649 --> 00:12:59.169 is a weird word for the sensory system that is 00:12:59.169 --> 00:13:02.029 responsible for all our balance and ultimately 00:13:02.029 --> 00:13:05.789 our ability to be still. It's linked to our vision 00:13:05.789 --> 00:13:09.110 and it's connected to our inner ear and it's 00:13:09.110 --> 00:13:11.269 hugely important. And I could take a whole day 00:13:11.269 --> 00:13:14.029 just to bang on about that one. But it's something 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:16.129 that when it's working, we take it for granted 00:13:16.129 --> 00:13:18.340 and we don't really know it's there. And when 00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:21.299 it's not, we really do know about it. So if you've 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:24.279 ever had vertigo or been travel sick, then it's 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.620 been your vestibular system that's been out of 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:28.860 whack. And if we had another day to talk about 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:30.980 the link between the vestibular system and emotional 00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:34.820 well -being and actually the part it plays in 00:13:34.820 --> 00:13:39.320 feeling grounded and secure. And, you know, we 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:42.500 use the words, I'm having a wobble, meaning I'm 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.220 not feeling quite right. That's directly linked 00:13:45.220 --> 00:13:47.279 to the way our vestibular system and our sense 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.480 of balance and being secure on the ground is 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.240 linked to our emotional and personal sense of 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.100 ourselves. If we imagine that I'm two or three 00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:58.960 years old, for example, and I'm doing lots of 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.019 play in my setting that's developing my gross 00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:03.960 motor skills and then my fine motor skills and 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:08.610 it's stimulating my vestibular system. How in 00:14:08.610 --> 00:14:11.129 turn are all of those activities simultaneously 00:14:11.129 --> 00:14:13.509 supporting my speech and language development? 00:14:14.289 --> 00:14:18.929 Okay. So the first thing is to be aware that 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:21.590 for speech articulation, of course, there's a 00:14:21.590 --> 00:14:24.210 difference between, you know, the two aspects 00:14:24.210 --> 00:14:27.429 of communications, speech and language. But in 00:14:27.429 --> 00:14:30.110 terms of speech, we need all of these muscles 00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:32.809 and tiny little things, movements to be well 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:35.110 integrated enough to be able to articulate speech. 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:37.929 So there's movement going on there. And that 00:14:37.929 --> 00:14:39.950 movement and the integration of that movement 00:14:39.950 --> 00:14:42.929 is also linked to the brain in the way that the 00:14:42.929 --> 00:14:48.549 brain can manage to kind of traffic control all 00:14:48.549 --> 00:14:50.230 these different things that are going on in our 00:14:50.230 --> 00:14:52.649 bodies at the same time. That's very simplistic, 00:14:52.789 --> 00:14:55.909 but it's one aspect. There's also another few 00:14:55.909 --> 00:14:59.029 theories about this as well. So if I say put 00:14:59.029 --> 00:15:02.690 yourself on a roller coaster, whether or not 00:15:02.690 --> 00:15:05.590 you like it, what's likely to happen when you 00:15:05.590 --> 00:15:08.179 come down? You know, the big one. If it's me, 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.220 I'd be screaming my head off. Jo, do you enjoy 00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:15.799 them? I don't. Can you remember enjoying them? 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:17.980 We're not the best people to take to a theme 00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:20.000 park, are we really, between us? That's fine. 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.019 That's fine. Because actually the reality is 00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:26.220 that whether or not you're scared of them, you're 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:28.240 probably still going to scream. And one of you 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.519 might be screaming in distress, but actually 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.299 the majority of people who choose to go on roller 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:38.600 coasters will be screaming. with joy and exhilaration, 00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:42.440 and not deliberately. They don't go on and go, 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:45.580 I'm going to scream. That scream comes out. That's 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:47.759 the whole point. You slide down a slide, you 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:53.360 go, whee! It would seem that our vestibular system 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.419 is being very stimulated by those actions, and 00:15:57.419 --> 00:15:59.960 that seems to be what makes us involuntarily 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:03.879 make sounds as well. to have the urge to vocalize, 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:07.120 even though it's a drive. We're not deliberately 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.559 thinking about it. The urge to do it is there. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.220 So quite a few years ago now, Dr. A. Jean Ayres, 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:15.879 who is somebody I would definitely recommend 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.399 you reading if you're interested to find out 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:21.639 more about sensory integration, she suggested 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:25.000 that it might be the case that children who haven't, 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.960 for whatever reason, had enough vestibular experience. 00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:32.039 in their earliest years, might not have that 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.200 same stimulation to vocalize. And that's actually 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.860 starting off with babbling as a baby. Now, it's 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.960 just a theory, but it often gets noted by speech 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:44.419 therapists that with some of their children, 00:16:44.539 --> 00:16:47.460 their speech and language increases if they include 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:50.220 vestibular activities into their sessions, like 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:53.879 swinging on a swing first. And OTs, occupational 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.320 therapists, who are working with children with 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.259 balance issues, have often found that speech 00:16:59.259 --> 00:17:02.000 and language have improved when the child's balance 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.039 improves. So there's definitely something in 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.680 there to take note of, isn't there? That's really 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.039 interesting. Do you think that taking everything 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.980 that you've said into account, it's important 00:17:12.980 --> 00:17:15.339 for our practitioners to be offering opportunities 00:17:15.339 --> 00:17:18.500 for vestibular stimulation as early as possible? 00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:21.900 Well, how about if I say that the likelihood 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:25.319 that in every baby room these things are going 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:30.059 on from the minute... A parent hands over a baby 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:34.180 who's perhaps a little distressed and that practitioner 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:38.259 is jiggling the baby up, down and rocking them 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:41.799 slightly to soothe and comfort them. That's vestibular 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:44.720 stimulation. That's what's so wonderful about 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.339 the way adults are instinctively driven to help 00:17:49.339 --> 00:17:52.559 children develop their sensory systems. And that 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.859 is one of the most important ways that that happens. 00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.450 We rock. and sway with babies to soothe them 00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:01.349 we jiggle them up and on on our knees and bounce 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:02.990 them up and down and even throw them up in the 00:18:02.990 --> 00:18:05.130 air and that will be happening in baby rooms 00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:07.890 too you know you don't need the equipment you 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:10.269 don't need the activity it doesn't need to be 00:18:10.269 --> 00:18:13.450 in a lesson plan you know this is something that 00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:17.089 instinctively adults are we have the urge to 00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:19.710 do that and i think what we need to do there 00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:22.009 is to be able to first of all recognize that 00:18:22.009 --> 00:18:26.859 give validation for it you know A baby room in 00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:30.160 general is a wonderfully stimulating place for 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.460 the vestibular system. You know, whether or not 00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:34.359 you've got any fancy equipment, you know, it 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:37.099 will be. Because if you've got a practitioner's 00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:40.900 arms and that practitioner knows that child well 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:43.579 enough to be able to think, actually, I think 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:45.980 what they might like to do is to be hung upside 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:48.519 down. I won't say hung upside down, but you know 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.559 what I mean? The sort of games that you can play. 00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:53.309 with babies and young children where you let 00:18:53.309 --> 00:18:56.430 them experience that wonderful tipping feeling 00:18:56.430 --> 00:18:59.869 or falling through your knees as Humpty Dumpty, 00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:03.710 all being done in a safe way with a practitioner 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.450 who knows the child well enough to know this 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:09.349 is what they're ready for. And actually is also 00:19:09.349 --> 00:19:11.349 because it's really, really important at whatever 00:19:11.349 --> 00:19:14.210 age, because sometimes children will tell us, 00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:16.549 no, I didn't like that. Don't do it again. Stop. 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.289 Sometimes they will say, stop, stop. And they 00:19:19.289 --> 00:19:21.660 mean do it again. We also know that one, don't 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:24.380 we? But equally, we need to be able to read what 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.880 a child is telling us with their body. You know, 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:30.960 stiffening or tension or just not feeling comfortable 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.539 because some child might not feel confident enough 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:36.380 to say, no, don't do that to the ground. But 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:38.220 actually, we can read it in their bodies. And 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:40.500 it's that connection that we have physically 00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:43.500 that means that we're able to do that. And then 00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:46.279 you've got all those wonderful shared experiences 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:49.660 that will be supporting the vestibular system. 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.390 And that will go on to include slides and, you 00:19:53.390 --> 00:19:55.549 know, making your own slides of just the right 00:19:55.549 --> 00:20:00.329 hike for a child, wobble boards and gym balls 00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:03.529 that you can bounce on and swing back, playing 00:20:03.529 --> 00:20:07.630 row, row, row the boat. There's a whole raft 00:20:07.630 --> 00:20:10.990 of things that practitioners will be doing instinctively. 00:20:11.369 --> 00:20:13.630 And actually, if they just, you know, if you 00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:15.970 just take a little bit of time to think, what 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:19.079 do I do during the day? where I'm actually involved 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.359 in swaying and rocking and bouncing and jiggling 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:26.940 and all of that and going, that is vestibular 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:29.759 development. And look at me, I'm building that 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.140 child's brain, you know, and don't let anybody 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:34.940 diminish how important all of that playful stuff 00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:38.680 is. Absolutely. As you were talking, you were 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:42.180 making me think about some of our nonverbal children 00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:45.619 that are in our settings. And I was particularly 00:20:45.619 --> 00:20:47.240 thinking about what you said about the roller 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.420 coaster example and those opportunities for involuntary 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:55.339 noises and screams and laughs. Would it be fair 00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:58.640 to say that those kind of activities are useful 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.740 to encourage speech sounds from nonverbal children? 00:21:03.589 --> 00:21:05.509 Is there a link there at all that, you know, 00:21:05.529 --> 00:21:07.769 that play can be helpful for them to develop 00:21:07.769 --> 00:21:10.769 that sense of voice? I think it's definitely 00:21:10.769 --> 00:21:14.970 worth remembering that if our learning environments 00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:17.529 are places for sitting still and not moving a 00:21:17.529 --> 00:21:20.990 great deal, then, you know, regardless of how 00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:23.990 much we offer, we're actually not providing the 00:21:23.990 --> 00:21:26.829 base level of movement that these children will 00:21:26.829 --> 00:21:29.670 need. And then if we recognise that some of our 00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:31.849 children aren't getting the natural base level 00:21:31.849 --> 00:21:35.269 anyway. you know, for whatever reason at home. 00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:37.990 And we need to be aware, I mean, we've got children 00:21:37.990 --> 00:21:40.630 coming into settings now who were COVID babies, 00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:45.230 who may not have been as exposed to toddler groups 00:21:45.230 --> 00:21:48.750 or, you know, soft play areas and all, just even 00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:52.289 being out as much as in general we would have 00:21:52.289 --> 00:21:57.200 hoped. So any kind of limitation. on those natural 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.519 instinctive movements is going to have a part 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.519 to play. So then if you then find yourself in 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.240 a learning environment that is very static and 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.799 quite restrictive, you're completely missing 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:11.799 out on the opportunity to fill in those gaps. 00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:15.180 So it's the free movement that children are getting 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:17.539 and should be having in nursery environments 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:20.299 and in reception classes too that are actually 00:22:20.299 --> 00:22:22.779 allowing them to make decisions for themselves. 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:26.099 And to be able to join in and to be encouraged 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.839 because some children will not necessarily be 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.480 seeking those activities and will need a little 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:34.839 bit of encouragement to do that. So for some 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.059 of them, it might be like going back to the babyhood 00:22:37.059 --> 00:22:39.519 of being rocked and playing Humpty Dumpty and 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.779 those kinds of things. Matching their developmental 00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:46.039 stage rather than their chronological age, as 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.900 it were. And then there will be some children 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:52.079 who are desperately seeking it. and will be going 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.000 out of their way to get as much of that experience 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.099 as they can. And if they're finding themselves 00:22:57.099 --> 00:22:59.180 sat cross -legged on the carpet for a very long 00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:01.700 time, their bodies and their brains together 00:23:01.700 --> 00:23:04.839 will be saying, you need to move, mate. And so 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.039 they might set up their own rocking or their 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.240 own swaying or their own spinning around on their 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.099 bottom in that little space that they're allowed 00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:13.900 to sit on. So actually, you know, children will 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:16.480 have that drive to do it for themselves. And 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:19.099 it's about us recognising, actually, this child 00:23:19.099 --> 00:23:22.400 is telling me. It needs to move more. Yeah. So, 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:26.019 yeah, I mean, physical development, we talk about 00:23:26.019 --> 00:23:28.859 it being the prime of the prime areas. There's 00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:30.859 lots of debate about that. Actually, there's 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.400 none of them come first. But our explanation 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.680 of it is, and again, I want to do something visual 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:43.299 here, but basically thinking of they're not a 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:46.480 list, one, two, three. They're not a pyramid 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.599 with something at the top. They're actually an 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.839 inverted pyramid with physical development at 00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.900 the base, holding up emotional on the one hand 00:23:57.900 --> 00:23:59.720 and communication and language on the other. 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.460 You know, it is, it's the pinnacle. That's an 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:03.819 interesting way to think about it though. That 00:24:03.819 --> 00:24:06.099 is a good visual. So like an upside down triangle 00:24:06.099 --> 00:24:08.839 with physical development at the bottom. And 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:10.579 if you take away the physical development, well, 00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:14.579 the other two will just go, you know. Yeah. They're 00:24:14.579 --> 00:24:16.440 very mutually supportive, aren't they? They're, 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.259 like you said, very interlinked. You almost couldn't 00:24:18.259 --> 00:24:20.279 separate them in some aspects. Mutually dependent. 00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:23.740 And that's the problem, is that if we don't give 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:25.920 the recognition to one of them, we're actually 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:39.380 impacting on the other two as well. So, Anne, 00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:41.680 I have a daughter, Isla, who is coming up for 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:46.230 two now. She'll be two in April. And I've really 00:24:46.230 --> 00:24:48.230 noticed that over the last couple of months, 00:24:48.369 --> 00:24:51.450 she has a real fascination with spinning. For 00:24:51.450 --> 00:24:53.470 example, she loves spinning around on her own, 00:24:53.509 --> 00:24:55.869 but she also enjoys spinning around on play equipment 00:24:55.869 --> 00:24:59.869 or just being spun around in our arms. And in 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:02.730 addition to that, she also really loves hiding 00:25:02.730 --> 00:25:06.670 too. So hiding in things, behind things, under 00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:09.990 things, etc. There's a lot of hide and seek going 00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:13.319 on at our house at the moment. So I was wondering, 00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:16.740 developmentally, are there specific ages and 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:20.200 stages where children tend to exhibit a preference 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:24.839 for certain types of movement or play? Yes. I 00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:27.359 mean, it's loose, obviously, in the way that 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.039 all children's development is. You know, they 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:33.279 don't all get up and walk on the same day. So, 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:35.859 you know, all of this does take its own time 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:40.740 scale. But yeah, definitely spinning. And I think 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:43.119 you would know now. why she's doing that spinning, 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:47.359 you know, what's going on in there. But also 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.240 she's discovering it feels good. And we all, 00:25:51.299 --> 00:25:54.319 if we find a little movement that feels good, 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:57.460 we like to repeat it. And we repeat it because 00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:01.019 of the feel good payback that we get. And let's 00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:03.339 face it, the brain and the body are working together 00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:06.380 there to give us that feel good payback in order 00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:09.240 for us to develop and refine that movement. Because 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:11.940 if it's good for us. The body and the brain want 00:26:11.940 --> 00:26:14.440 us to do more of it so that we get better at 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.660 it. And it isn't always about getting better 00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:21.039 at something. Sometimes it's about embedding 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:25.059 it. So a lot of that spinning stuff, we don't 00:26:25.059 --> 00:26:27.940 need to get better at spinning. What we do is 00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:29.980 that it gets embedded in the brain and the brain 00:26:29.980 --> 00:26:31.680 is going, yeah, okay, I'm getting enough of this 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.480 stuff now to be able to kind of go, yeah, the 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.000 vestibular system is developing. And we think, 00:26:37.180 --> 00:26:39.359 certainly with the vestibular system, like a 00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.089 lot of things. up until at least the age of seven 00:26:42.089 --> 00:26:45.269 before it's, you know, it's firmly embedded. 00:26:45.970 --> 00:26:49.630 So, yeah, you know, these things, they might 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:51.829 rise to a height and they're obsessed with spinning 00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:54.430 and then it might fade away and then it might, 00:26:54.490 --> 00:26:57.509 you know, it might bob up again. And hiding, 00:26:57.690 --> 00:27:02.210 oh, hiding is such a fun one because that's where 00:27:02.210 --> 00:27:05.369 I get to talk about proprioception. Proprioception 00:27:05.369 --> 00:27:08.170 is another one of those lovely sensory things. 00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:12.779 It's a sensory system and it's all about having 00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.740 a sense of our inner body. You know what? It's 00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:19.299 like having like having eyes on the inside and 00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:24.140 a whole set of maps. It's I think it's Jill Connell 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:27.299 and Cheryl McCarthy refer to it as proprioception 00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:33.440 as our inner GPS satellite sat nav. Yeah. And 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:36.200 they refer to the vestibular system as our inner 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.559 spirit level. So, you know, both of those things. 00:27:39.619 --> 00:27:43.460 Yeah. So proprioception really is something that 00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:47.400 has to be constantly being tested and stretched 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.519 because we are constantly stretching as babies. 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:53.240 You know what? The cardboard box you could fit 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:56.680 into easily last week. Well, maybe next week 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.640 you don't fit into quite so easily because of 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:01.980 that massive growth that's taking place all the 00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:04.579 time. And babies are learning about where they 00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:08.019 start and where they end. You know, I can fit 00:28:08.019 --> 00:28:10.440 into this space. I can't fit into this space. 00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:13.319 And it's proprioception ultimately as adults 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.039 that enables us to walk through an open doorway 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:19.680 without bumping into the doorframe. Importantly. 00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:23.799 Yes, absolutely. It's what allows us to be able 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.440 to sit down on a chair without first having to 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:29.200 turn around and look at our bottoms as we're 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.640 lowering it onto the chair seat. It's about how 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.180 we can fasten the strings of an apron. behind 00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:39.839 our back or how we can, you know, plait our hair 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.579 without seeing, you know, you might look in a 00:28:42.579 --> 00:28:43.940 mirror, but you can't see what's going on behind 00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:46.900 you. That's proprioception that enables us to 00:28:46.900 --> 00:28:50.279 do that. So if you think of a toddler whose proprioception 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.920 is still very much developing, they're walking, 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.200 they kind of need to look at their hands to see 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:58.319 what their hands are doing. They need to look 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:01.519 at where their feet are going. Everything is 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:05.380 a sort of a much more... I won't say slower, 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:08.640 but it's a much more complex process as a toddler. 00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:12.019 But once proprioception is well enough developed, 00:29:12.140 --> 00:29:14.220 like vestibular, it's something you're not aware 00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:17.200 of. You're no longer aware of it. And that's 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:20.680 when you get physical automatic mastery, which 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.440 means that you can walk down the stairs without, 00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:25.700 you know, carrying a bundle of washing and not 00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:27.319 have to look where your feet are going. It's 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:29.259 how you can get in and out of a car. Does that 00:29:29.259 --> 00:29:33.160 also contribute to your speech, language and 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:35.220 communication development in the same way that 00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:38.259 the vestibular system does? It's certainly in 00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:42.420 the mix. And it's in the mix because, and again, 00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:46.359 this is not an area totally of expertise on my 00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:50.200 part, but it's in the mix because proprioception, 00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:53.220 this whole idea of physical mastery, to be able 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:56.309 to move those muscles around your mouth. involves 00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:59.269 physical automatic mastery not having to think 00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:01.829 about it but you know how you have to think about 00:30:01.829 --> 00:30:05.950 a word that's complicated or a new word in order 00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:08.230 to be able to move the right bits of your mouth 00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:11.029 and your tongue and all the rest of it um so 00:30:11.029 --> 00:30:13.930 it's in the mix definitely and it's it's about 00:30:13.930 --> 00:30:18.369 that that's much i think um you could parcel 00:30:18.369 --> 00:30:21.130 up in the whole sensory integration element of 00:30:21.130 --> 00:30:23.289 it which is you know quite a big thing to talk 00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:27.430 about and i don't feel um totally qualified to 00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:30.089 give you um chapter and verse on that one uh 00:30:30.089 --> 00:30:33.069 it's fascinating and i'm still learning a lot 00:30:33.069 --> 00:30:36.130 about that it's really interesting to hear what 00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:39.769 you say about the way the brain and the body 00:30:39.769 --> 00:30:43.210 how it all melds together doing stuff that we 00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:47.819 automatically just do Whereas, yes, when you're 00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:50.140 a small child, you're having to really sort of 00:30:50.140 --> 00:30:52.779 think about it till you get into that mastery 00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:55.980 sense of doing those things. And it is really 00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:59.079 developing children's own sense of being, isn't 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.849 it? So they're really. understanding themselves, 00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:05.250 which I guess will then help with their speech 00:31:05.250 --> 00:31:07.650 and language, but it will also help with all 00:31:07.650 --> 00:31:11.150 those other areas of social development, emotional 00:31:11.150 --> 00:31:13.849 development. So it really sort of, like you said 00:31:13.849 --> 00:31:17.089 earlier on with your inverted pyramid, it really 00:31:17.089 --> 00:31:21.190 is sort of underpinning a lot of what children 00:31:21.190 --> 00:31:24.549 are learning and developing. Yeah. And that's 00:31:24.549 --> 00:31:27.329 even before we talk about interoception, which 00:31:27.329 --> 00:31:31.339 is another sensory system. And that actually 00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:35.259 enables us to understand our feelings and what 00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:39.200 our body is telling us about how we feel and 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.700 how well our body is functioning. That's a whole 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:55.380 other system as well. Have I told you the story 00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:59.019 about the little boy? for whom English wasn't 00:31:59.019 --> 00:32:01.880 his first language, who was very, very anxious 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:06.960 arriving into nursery. So I observed this situation 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.519 and we were working with this nursery, but this 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.000 happened to be something that happened alongside. 00:32:13.539 --> 00:32:16.519 And again, I'm kind of using the term continuous 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:19.599 provision because it's about the daily life of 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.359 a setting. It's not about a timetabled thing. 00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:26.789 And it's about, in this instance, about... a 00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:30.849 practitioner being brave enough to try something 00:32:30.849 --> 00:32:34.390 that was a bit freaky, to be honest. So I was 00:32:34.390 --> 00:32:36.710 kind of holding her hand by the side while she 00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:39.730 attempted this. So this little lad arrived at 00:32:39.730 --> 00:32:43.690 nursery. I don't think he was quite three. And 00:32:43.690 --> 00:32:46.829 in fact, at this stage, nobody was quite sure 00:32:46.829 --> 00:32:48.990 what his first language was, which I did pick 00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:50.930 them up on. And actually, they needed to go and 00:32:50.930 --> 00:32:53.140 find out what his first language was. But there 00:32:53.140 --> 00:32:55.640 had been some confusion over his arrival and 00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:00.099 his settling. And dad would bring him to nursery. 00:33:00.220 --> 00:33:04.359 And as far as this child was concerned, he was 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.019 extremely miffed. You know, this was not a place 00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:08.900 he wanted to be. And he certainly did not see 00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:12.579 why his dad had to leave him there. And he had 00:33:12.579 --> 00:33:15.940 really only one choice, which was to scream very 00:33:15.940 --> 00:33:18.960 loudly and to shout and to cry. A little bit 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.440 of feet stamping, but mostly he was just extremely 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.670 distressed. I suggested that this practitioner 00:33:24.670 --> 00:33:27.190 who was trying to engage him and trying to distract 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:30.990 him. And she knew he liked the small world animals. 00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:33.630 So she had these out and he was having none of 00:33:33.630 --> 00:33:38.089 it really. And she was talking, you know, constantly, 00:33:38.289 --> 00:33:40.650 you know, encouraging him and comforting and 00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:43.150 all the rest of it. And I just kind of went, 00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:47.710 you know, stop talking. Sorry, I'll say that 00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:49.950 again a bit louder. Stop talking was what I said, 00:33:49.950 --> 00:33:52.609 but I whispered it to her. And she looked at 00:33:52.609 --> 00:33:57.190 me, you know, cut the gabble. And we had talked 00:33:57.190 --> 00:34:01.450 about this a little bit beforehand. And bless 00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:04.869 her, she tried. And it was difficult. You could 00:34:04.869 --> 00:34:07.450 see it was really difficult. And of course it 00:34:07.450 --> 00:34:11.389 is. As practitioners, we are encouraged to talk 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:14.809 constantly at children, to grow their vocabulary, 00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:18.230 to be constantly engaging them in language and 00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:20.670 discussion and questions and all the rest of 00:34:20.670 --> 00:34:23.139 it. So it's really difficult to suddenly go, 00:34:23.219 --> 00:34:24.760 actually stop talking. And it's really quite 00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:27.360 difficult to stop talking to a child who is distressed 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.780 as well. But as my child once said to me when 00:34:30.780 --> 00:34:32.599 I was saying, it's OK, it's OK, when it's not 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.340 OK. And I thought, yeah, you're right, actually. 00:34:35.539 --> 00:34:38.039 And so we have to think very carefully about, 00:34:38.179 --> 00:34:41.159 you know, it's OK to shush, you know, use comforting 00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.659 sounds. But actually, sometimes the talk is just 00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:48.860 too much. In this instance, once she got used 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.739 to the idea of not talking. And she began to 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:56.800 play with the animals. And then again, I suggested 00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:59.940 then that she mirror what he was doing with the 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:04.860 animals. So not to play with him, not to lead 00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:08.199 the play, not to take the play anywhere, but 00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:10.000 just to mirror. And again, she found this quite 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:13.199 difficult to begin with because we are so used, 00:35:13.300 --> 00:35:15.340 aren't we, to thinking we must take it further 00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:18.840 forward. We must move it on. You know, oh, it's 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:21.099 the giraffe lying down. Okay, so she'd learned 00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:23.559 not to say anything, but then she was manipulating 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:26.099 the giraffe to try and communicate something 00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.039 to the child. I was like, no, just do exactly 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:31.699 what the child is doing. Mirror the child's movements. 00:35:31.820 --> 00:35:34.840 And these were very tiny movements, a lot of 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:36.960 fine motor control to manipulate this little 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.539 giraffe. And it was almost as if the child was 00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:43.980 attempting to distract himself. He was still 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:48.699 crying quietly to himself. And anyway, at some 00:35:48.699 --> 00:35:52.429 point, The magic happened. And it did feel like 00:35:52.429 --> 00:35:55.469 magic, I have to say, to observe it. But the 00:35:55.469 --> 00:36:00.389 practitioner really got it. And she began to 00:36:00.389 --> 00:36:02.969 mirror the tiny little movements that the child 00:36:02.969 --> 00:36:05.489 was making with his giraffe with her animal. 00:36:06.349 --> 00:36:10.090 And at some point where the magic really happened 00:36:10.090 --> 00:36:13.389 was when the child noticed this. And he noticed 00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:16.610 that she had noticed him and that she was really 00:36:16.610 --> 00:36:21.099 paying attention to him. And very slowly, gradually, 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:26.840 the crying stopped. His breathing slowed down, 00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.599 and so did her breathing slow down. The tension 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.440 in his body dissipated. The tension in her body 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:38.079 dissipated. And the two of them spent ages just 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.800 moving these animals around. And eventually, 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.380 a little bit of connection. The animals were 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:49.949 connecting, yeah? Now, the next day, I wasn't 00:36:49.949 --> 00:36:53.050 there, but I was told that the child came in. 00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:55.570 Yes, he was distressed and he went straight for 00:36:55.570 --> 00:36:58.409 this practitioner. She was the one he was now 00:36:58.409 --> 00:37:02.190 prepared to allow to comfort him. The following 00:37:02.190 --> 00:37:04.690 week, he would still make for her every morning, 00:37:04.730 --> 00:37:07.329 but he was actually coming into nursery a lot 00:37:07.329 --> 00:37:10.610 happier. So, you know, the happy ever after story, 00:37:10.670 --> 00:37:14.789 the happy ending. But for me, that was evidence 00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:17.849 of a practitioner's bravery. to try something 00:37:17.849 --> 00:37:20.309 out of their comfort zone, which sounds easy. 00:37:20.469 --> 00:37:22.730 And in fact, to somebody observing, looks like 00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:24.630 they're not even doing their job properly. It 00:37:24.630 --> 00:37:27.349 was quite the opposite. And the connection was 00:37:27.349 --> 00:37:29.269 what made all the difference to that child. And 00:37:29.269 --> 00:37:32.250 that, I think, is what it's all about. It is. 00:37:32.250 --> 00:37:34.849 And it's that child having somebody coming into 00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:37.610 their world, isn't it? That adult has stepped 00:37:37.610 --> 00:37:40.630 into their world. They can see where that child 00:37:40.630 --> 00:37:43.230 is, where that child's coming from. And I think... 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.500 It's really nice that you've touched on that 00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:49.099 because actually, you know, we do have a lot 00:37:49.099 --> 00:37:50.800 of English as an additional language children 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.139 in Norfolk and actually it's reminding staff 00:37:54.139 --> 00:37:57.960 that actually, like you said, we went through 00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.360 that whole bit about questioning, questioning, 00:38:00.739 --> 00:38:04.840 now it's commenting and one question and actually 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.340 it's having that bravery as a practitioner to 00:38:07.340 --> 00:38:11.619 step back. And be able to just observe the child 00:38:11.619 --> 00:38:14.159 and just see what they're doing and how you can 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.380 mirror that. And that's a really, like you said, 00:38:17.420 --> 00:38:20.639 it's a difficult thing to do. But once you're 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.039 able to do it, it means so much to that child. 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:27.280 And it's having that non -verbal communication 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.460 with that child. It's still a form of communication, 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:33.059 but you're communicating in their way. So it's 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:36.250 really good to hear that that's happening. And 00:38:36.250 --> 00:38:39.389 it becomes another thing in your kit bag, your 00:38:39.389 --> 00:38:41.969 toolbox of things. So it's not that you never 00:38:41.969 --> 00:38:45.170 talk again to a child. It's not that you never 00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:47.570 lead the play again. It's another thing that 00:38:47.570 --> 00:38:50.010 you've got in your tool bag to be able to draw 00:38:50.010 --> 00:38:53.369 on when it seems appropriate. And it's so much 00:38:53.369 --> 00:38:55.949 about observing and knowing that child. And it 00:38:55.949 --> 00:39:00.650 allows you to observe them better. And it's good 00:39:00.650 --> 00:39:04.679 for all our children. And what it does, certainly 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.179 for a child with EAL or a child with SEND or 00:39:07.179 --> 00:39:12.960 a shy child, it takes the burden of talk off 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.000 them. You know, children know that they're expected 00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:19.179 to reply, to answer questions, to engage with 00:39:19.179 --> 00:39:21.980 us. And for some children, you take away that 00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:25.860 burden, that obligation. Actually, you remove 00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:28.360 a whole load of stress from them. You take away 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.559 children's stress. You're actually able to get. 00:39:30.889 --> 00:39:35.110 You know, the child is going to is going to wallow 00:39:35.110 --> 00:39:38.309 in that stress free environment or stress less 00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:41.230 environment and actually be able to move forward. 00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:45.349 And I wanted to jump topic slightly, if that's 00:39:45.349 --> 00:39:49.309 OK with you. And I wanted to talk about that. 00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:52.360 kind of age -old concern really that physical 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.460 play particularly that rough and tumble play 00:39:55.460 --> 00:39:58.960 and the big gross motor skill play like climbing 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.539 and balancing and hanging upside down and jumping 00:40:01.539 --> 00:40:05.300 off things could result in someone getting hurt 00:40:05.300 --> 00:40:08.059 I think that can be a bit of a worry for practitioners 00:40:08.059 --> 00:40:12.019 sometimes so I was wondering what you would say 00:40:12.019 --> 00:40:14.300 to those practitioners who are worried about 00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:17.909 injuries and who have perhaps become a little 00:40:17.909 --> 00:40:20.570 bit more risk averse in their choices of activities? 00:40:21.750 --> 00:40:24.650 And yeah, of course people are worried about 00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:28.750 it. We've become a risk averse society. And there's 00:40:28.750 --> 00:40:30.909 also very good reasons why we have health and 00:40:30.909 --> 00:40:32.869 safety policies. You know, there are children 00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:34.829 who are alive today because of health and safety 00:40:34.829 --> 00:40:37.369 policies. And then we have to work out, now hang 00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:39.650 on a minute, what is, what are the principles? 00:40:39.889 --> 00:40:42.030 What are the non -negotiables here? And the non 00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:45.139 -negotiable for me... is that children need to 00:40:45.139 --> 00:40:47.500 grow to learn how to do their own risk assessment. 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:53.099 And they will only do that by being exposed to 00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:55.880 challenge, let's call it challenge in this context, 00:40:56.199 --> 00:41:00.300 that enables them to find out how to manage and 00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:02.800 also how to make decisions for themselves about 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:06.219 what's a real risk, what's a danger, what they're 00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:08.500 prepared to have a go at, what they're not quite 00:41:08.500 --> 00:41:12.349 ready for yet. So if all your life you've only 00:41:12.349 --> 00:41:15.210 ever experienced falling off something onto rubber 00:41:15.210 --> 00:41:18.320 crumb, you don't know what it feels like. to 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:21.960 land on concrete or a paving slab or grass or 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:25.139 a muddy puddle. You actually have to feel those 00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:27.480 experiences to learn how to manage your body. 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.559 And particularly with regards to proprioception 00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:32.139 and the fact that our bodies are constantly changing 00:41:32.139 --> 00:41:36.039 as you get older and the body matures, you need 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.159 to be able to know how to manage that risk. You 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.719 need to be able to weigh up something and go, 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:45.039 yeah, I'm ready to give that a go. Or say... 00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:46.980 Please, can you help me? I'm stuck at the top 00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:49.300 of the climbing frame and I don't think I can 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:52.639 get down by myself. And then that comes down 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.400 to us being able to go, OK, how am I going to 00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:58.960 help this child in a way that actually takes 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.739 them to where, you know, it's classic Vygotsky 00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:05.539 scaffolding zone of proximal development. You've 00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:06.980 got a child stuck at the top of the climbing 00:42:06.980 --> 00:42:08.840 frame, you know, like the kitten up the chimney. 00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:11.019 They managed to get there, but they can't find 00:42:11.019 --> 00:42:14.780 their way down. The simplest thing is to lift 00:42:14.780 --> 00:42:17.280 them off and put them down. And if they're terrified 00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.079 and they need to be down straight away, well, 00:42:19.099 --> 00:42:22.099 of course you'll do that. But actually, if this 00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:24.679 is a learning moment and it feels the right time, 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.320 you're going to stand close behind that child. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.039 You're going to help them slide their hands up 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:34.320 to be able to grip, but to slide their hands 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.119 slowly down if it's a ladder or whatever. To 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.360 be able to stretch out one leg and one toe and 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.719 one foot. You might even help them find the next 00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:46.599 run of the ladder. But you're there, you're behind 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:50.019 them. They know it's safe. And if their bodies 00:42:50.019 --> 00:42:51.940 will be telling you, as well as their voices 00:42:51.940 --> 00:42:54.579 maybe, yeah, I'm prepared to give this a go. 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:57.880 It's scary, but I know I'll be OK. Do you think 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.760 it's almost inevitable that risk has to go hand 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.519 in hand with physical play? Yes, I suppose. Because 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:07.760 actually, the minute you get up off the floor, 00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:11.380 you're taking a risk, aren't you? Yeah. Just 00:43:11.380 --> 00:43:14.980 think of what it, perhaps it's just as well that 00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.719 we don't think, but, you know, a baby who has 00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:22.420 just learned to walk, what risks are they taking, 00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:26.280 you know, just to get across the floor, you know, 00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:29.400 risking that thump as they land on their bottoms, 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.619 usually covered in a nappy, so it's a little 00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:33.800 bit softer. And yeah, they haven't got that far 00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:36.119 to go, but it's a, you know, it's a shock. And 00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:40.420 actually, some children. learn to to enjoy that 00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:43.659 experience of putting themselves at risk you 00:43:43.659 --> 00:43:45.880 know i watched my little great niece recently 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:48.719 i bought her a wobble board for christmas i don't 00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:50.239 know if you know what i mean so it looks like 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.019 a little a wooden arch yeah i don't know what 00:43:53.019 --> 00:43:55.119 you mean yeah and you can stand on it and wobble 00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.639 actually what she likes to do is to turn it over 00:43:57.639 --> 00:43:59.920 because they're multi -purpose these things and 00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:02.599 she likes to stand at the top and then slide 00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:06.360 down and inevitably falls down and lands on her 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.380 bottom and she does that over and over again 00:44:08.380 --> 00:44:12.800 because falling actually the fear and the management 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:17.000 of it feels good so actually the feel good is 00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:18.679 giving her the payback that says i'm going to 00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:21.559 do this so that eventually actually it won't 00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:24.119 be a risk for her because she can manage it very 00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:28.139 well um but also the emotional sense of i you 00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:33.599 know i know what i can do now um so I think we 00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.699 have to find ways of being able to do that. It 00:44:36.699 --> 00:44:39.360 doesn't mean we absolve ourselves of all responsibility 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:41.820 because we still have to look out for hazards. 00:44:42.139 --> 00:44:43.960 And it's about knowing the difference between 00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.000 a hazard and a risk. And a hazard is something 00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.659 that gets in the way of us being safe to do what 00:44:50.659 --> 00:44:53.119 we need to do. It shouldn't be there effectively. 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:57.840 So, you know, a rucked up carpet or a nail sticking 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:01.019 out of something. That's not a risk. That's a 00:45:01.019 --> 00:45:04.230 hazard. It's our responsibility to check our 00:45:04.230 --> 00:45:07.389 outdoor spaces every morning to make sure there 00:45:07.389 --> 00:45:10.809 are no new hazards there. A risk is something 00:45:10.809 --> 00:45:16.429 that can be part of our play. And it's something 00:45:16.429 --> 00:45:19.550 that we can bring into our play. You know, someone 00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:21.889 else can put it there, but very often it's when 00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:24.489 a child brings that risk in themselves, they 00:45:24.489 --> 00:45:26.730 are actually stretching themselves. And sometimes 00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:29.230 they will say, I want to do this, but I need 00:45:29.230 --> 00:45:32.110 you to help me with it. Yeah. That's our role 00:45:32.110 --> 00:45:35.650 there. I think it's really interesting what you 00:45:35.650 --> 00:45:37.489 were saying there about the child bringing in 00:45:37.489 --> 00:45:39.650 the risk sometimes, that kind of risk element 00:45:39.650 --> 00:45:42.329 that it's almost like they are much more risk 00:45:42.329 --> 00:45:45.190 tolerant than us as adults and they want to explore 00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:47.969 and they want to try new things, even if that 00:45:47.969 --> 00:45:50.110 does mean, you know, falling off and bumping 00:45:50.110 --> 00:45:52.210 their knee, cracking their head, you know, whatever 00:45:52.210 --> 00:45:55.170 that might be. And it got me thinking a little 00:45:55.170 --> 00:45:57.769 bit about those behaviours that we sometimes 00:45:57.769 --> 00:46:01.099 see in settings that... at first glance you might 00:46:01.099 --> 00:46:03.440 think look challenged like like a challenging 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.440 behavior something that's unwanted that we'd 00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:08.619 rather they weren't doing but actually from the 00:46:08.619 --> 00:46:10.519 child's perspective they're just playing and 00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.199 they're just exploring and wanting to to learn 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:17.610 and to try new things um And I think very closely 00:46:17.610 --> 00:46:19.590 related to that is that repetitive schematic 00:46:19.590 --> 00:46:22.510 play, isn't it? Like I was talking about my own 00:46:22.510 --> 00:46:24.610 experiences with my daughter earlier, you know, 00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:27.630 the constant spinning, the constant climbing 00:46:27.630 --> 00:46:30.710 as well and hiding, those kind of things. If 00:46:30.710 --> 00:46:33.449 I was a practitioner experiencing perhaps within 00:46:33.449 --> 00:46:35.570 my setting, lots of different schematic play 00:46:35.570 --> 00:46:39.159 going on. that is more easy to, I want to say, 00:46:39.179 --> 00:46:41.820 manage with air quotes, but also some that is 00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:43.679 more challenging when you've only got maybe one 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.780 or two pairs of hands and children wanting to 00:46:45.780 --> 00:46:48.599 jump from different objects and do all of those 00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:53.260 things. What kind of advice would you give them 00:46:53.260 --> 00:46:57.039 really for, I guess, a... identifying schematic 00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:59.239 behaviour and perhaps you could tell us a little 00:46:59.239 --> 00:47:02.059 bit more about that and you know why that's so 00:47:02.059 --> 00:47:05.800 developmentally important but also how practitioners 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.739 can channel that in a safe and positive way. 00:47:09.059 --> 00:47:14.400 Yeah good question. My kind of understanding 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.699 of schemas and I might this isn't an in -depth 00:47:17.699 --> 00:47:22.500 understanding by the way but simplistically is 00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:27.000 that children use schemas to make sense of the 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:31.820 world, really. And because it's giving them more 00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:34.820 and more information about the wider world and 00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:38.119 how they might connect these schemas to the wider 00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:39.780 world, they are getting information from it. 00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.679 And so they're going to want to keep doing it. 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.960 And and sometimes that is about refining it, 00:47:48.139 --> 00:47:51.679 you know, repeating an action in order to refine, 00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:54.380 to get better at doing something. And sometimes 00:47:54.380 --> 00:47:56.340 it is just because it's giving them more and 00:47:56.340 --> 00:47:59.159 more information about themselves and about the 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.719 way the world works. And obviously, there are 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:04.679 lots of, you know, classifications of schemas. 00:48:04.900 --> 00:48:08.940 And, you know, it can be it can be really interesting 00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:12.340 to be plotting those and to be recognizing them. 00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:15.739 I think the tie -in there for me with children's 00:48:15.739 --> 00:48:19.760 physical behaviours that may be linked to their 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:23.139 schema, they may be linked to their biological 00:48:23.139 --> 00:48:26.739 drive that they have to develop and refine something 00:48:26.739 --> 00:48:30.480 or to gain automatic mastery or for a sensory 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:37.679 stimulation, is about the child's recognising 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:41.309 that there's a drive there. In the first instance, 00:48:41.429 --> 00:48:43.489 the child is not doing this in order to annoy 00:48:43.489 --> 00:48:46.710 us. It will feel sometimes like they're doing 00:48:46.710 --> 00:48:49.050 it to annoy us, but actually that's not what 00:48:49.050 --> 00:48:53.110 it's about. And that's our work is to do that 00:48:53.110 --> 00:48:55.610 thing for ourselves which goes, okay, this isn't 00:48:55.610 --> 00:48:58.130 about me. This isn't about that child being annoying. 00:48:58.489 --> 00:49:00.710 I'm recognizing that because you probably already 00:49:00.710 --> 00:49:03.130 told them twice, three times, four times not 00:49:03.130 --> 00:49:05.449 to do it, they're still doing it. Okay, that 00:49:05.449 --> 00:49:07.429 is telling you something. You know, that drive, 00:49:07.550 --> 00:49:09.800 that urge is there. Then you're trying to work 00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:13.320 out why. And very rarely is it in order to annoy 00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.920 us. Very, very, very rarely is it for that. If 00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.179 ever, I would say. But that's a whole other discussion. 00:49:21.139 --> 00:49:24.880 Part of that awareness and understanding is actually 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.460 about skilling ourselves up in things like physical 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:30.559 development. Being able to recognize the kinds 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.659 of behaviors that children do in order to build 00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.179 their proprioception, to build their vestibular 00:49:36.179 --> 00:49:39.320 system. So that actually to be able to recognize, 00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:41.780 as you said, your little one spinning, okay, 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.340 you know where that's coming from now. And actually 00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:49.579 in that context, you can then use it and you 00:49:49.579 --> 00:49:53.019 can use it in helpful ways for the child. Now, 00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:57.139 that still doesn't take into account when a child 00:49:57.139 --> 00:49:59.480 is doing something that actually is great for 00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:01.820 them, but maybe isn't great for everybody else. 00:50:02.699 --> 00:50:05.219 Sometimes we also have to kind of go well actually 00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:08.559 is it just because when I'm reading a story it's 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:11.860 easier on my brain and my eyes and my general 00:50:11.860 --> 00:50:14.300 stress levels if everyone is sitting still with 00:50:14.300 --> 00:50:17.079 their legs crossed. Sometimes we also need to 00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:19.340 go well actually is sitting still on the floor 00:50:19.340 --> 00:50:21.500 with our legs crossed the only way to really 00:50:21.500 --> 00:50:24.699 listen to a story and actually have I got some 00:50:24.699 --> 00:50:27.719 work to do here about how I can manage to tell 00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:30.980 a story and how maybe I use more of my body than 00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:33.679 I have done previously. in order to be able to 00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:36.440 respond and mirror what the children are giving 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.260 me when they're moving. Because very often, children 00:50:39.260 --> 00:50:42.239 are driven by a story to want to move. You know, 00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:45.460 they're already acting it out, aren't they? But 00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:47.940 also, some children will be thinking, well, actually, 00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:51.519 if I hung upside down off the sofa to listen 00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:55.219 to this story, my brain feels a lot calmer. And 00:50:55.219 --> 00:50:57.929 that actually feels quite good. Of course, you 00:50:57.929 --> 00:51:00.469 can't have 15 children all hanging upside down 00:51:00.469 --> 00:51:03.909 off the sofa, can you? I get that. But it's also 00:51:03.909 --> 00:51:06.889 about recognizing, well, that if it's okay to 00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:09.409 let one person get comfortable in the way that 00:51:09.409 --> 00:51:11.949 suits them, you can actually let everyone get 00:51:11.949 --> 00:51:14.670 comfortable. So maybe some people prefer to lie 00:51:14.670 --> 00:51:17.150 on their tummies. Some people prefer to kneel 00:51:17.150 --> 00:51:20.329 up. Some children will need to move every three 00:51:20.329 --> 00:51:22.949 seconds because their bodies, you know, actually 00:51:22.949 --> 00:51:25.760 that's how, you know, that's... linked to their 00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:27.480 development of proprioception and the muscles 00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:30.039 of the tendons because actually the body is triggered 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.920 and stimulated to move every few seconds in a 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.260 child that that is science you know once we start 00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:38.039 to look at things a little bit differently we 00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:40.119 reframe things we have a little bit of a mind 00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:42.800 shift i'm not saying that every story has to 00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:45.480 be a free -for -all i'm just saying we open up 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:50.500 to that but also if what we're seeing are children 00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:55.199 who are clearly sensory seeking by these actions, 00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.260 then maybe we need to find ways of filling up 00:51:59.260 --> 00:52:02.420 their sensory cup in advance of things like a 00:52:02.420 --> 00:52:05.480 story time, perhaps. So that means that a child 00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:08.659 who is always spinning or twizzling when it's 00:52:08.659 --> 00:52:12.360 carpet time, what are we doing for them outdoors 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:15.420 where it's much safer for them to engage in the 00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:21.519 kind of risky or energetic or vigorous kind of 00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:23.400 behavior they seem to be telling us they need? 00:52:23.789 --> 00:52:25.809 If we think of the senses, everybody has these 00:52:25.809 --> 00:52:29.309 cups, you know, and you've got a certain amount 00:52:29.309 --> 00:52:32.409 of sensory stimulation has to be in there. And 00:52:32.409 --> 00:52:34.369 for some children, there's a leak in the bottom. 00:52:34.389 --> 00:52:37.610 So their cup never gets filled. And some children, 00:52:37.670 --> 00:52:39.949 there's only a little bit of a dripping tap and, 00:52:39.969 --> 00:52:43.010 you know, the whole thing overflows. So it's 00:52:43.010 --> 00:52:47.210 about finding ways of proactively responding 00:52:47.210 --> 00:52:51.809 to those sensory needs so that other times children 00:52:51.809 --> 00:52:55.190 won't have. that same drive that same urge won't 00:52:55.190 --> 00:52:59.010 overwhelm everything else does that sort of make 00:52:59.010 --> 00:53:01.630 sense i think it's really interesting what you 00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:03.849 said about being reflective of your own practice 00:53:03.849 --> 00:53:06.809 as well and actually thinking about why are you 00:53:06.809 --> 00:53:09.170 asking the children to do what you're asking 00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:11.349 them to do is there real purpose behind that 00:53:11.349 --> 00:53:13.789 or is it actually just as you said that's what 00:53:13.789 --> 00:53:16.159 everyone thinks we're supposed to do Exactly. 00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:18.079 Yeah. You know, and I think when you've probably 00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:20.900 been in your profession for a long time, you 00:53:20.900 --> 00:53:23.360 just probably do get used to doing the things 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:25.739 in a certain way because that's how they've always 00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:28.139 been done. But there's certainly room for wider 00:53:28.139 --> 00:53:30.320 thinking a lot of the time. And that's a really 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:32.300 useful point for practitioners to take away, 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:35.039 I think. And that is to say, you know, I totally 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.440 understand the limitations and the difficulties 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:42.980 of, you know. lots of children and not enough 00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:45.960 staff and not enough space and not enough time 00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:48.840 and all of those things I totally get it you 00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:51.219 know I yeah I have been there I have worn that 00:53:51.219 --> 00:53:54.619 t -shirt but I know it's even worse now and I 00:53:54.619 --> 00:53:56.500 know there are so many things that are weighing 00:53:56.500 --> 00:53:59.500 heavily on practitioners so you know my hat goes 00:53:59.500 --> 00:54:01.679 off to you all you know and and again you know 00:54:02.259 --> 00:54:04.659 Always thanks for how you kept the world going 00:54:04.659 --> 00:54:07.000 during COVID. And, you know, I will hark back 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.239 on that, but you did, guys. So I think that's 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.599 really important. Definitely. Wow. Well, thank 00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:17.460 you so much, Anne. We're almost at the end of 00:54:17.460 --> 00:54:21.940 our podcast. We've talked about such a wide variety 00:54:21.940 --> 00:54:26.480 of things, such a lot of positive things. And 00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.820 we really appreciate you joining us today on 00:54:28.820 --> 00:54:32.269 our first episode of Let's Talk series. And I 00:54:32.269 --> 00:54:35.110 know I have thoroughly enjoyed learning more 00:54:35.110 --> 00:54:38.889 about how physical development is so sort of 00:54:38.889 --> 00:54:41.949 interconnected and intertwined with all those 00:54:41.949 --> 00:54:44.949 other. areas of development as well and it's 00:54:44.949 --> 00:54:47.590 been really interesting to listen to so thank 00:54:47.590 --> 00:54:49.989 you once again and we really hope that everyone 00:54:49.989 --> 00:54:52.190 listening to the podcast at home has enjoyed 00:54:52.190 --> 00:54:55.090 this conversation and that they've learned something 00:54:55.090 --> 00:54:57.769 new or gained a new insight that they can then 00:54:57.769 --> 00:55:00.769 share with their colleagues but before we round 00:55:00.769 --> 00:55:03.449 off this podcast we'd really like to start a 00:55:03.449 --> 00:55:06.739 closing tradition whereby we ask our guest speaker 00:55:06.739 --> 00:55:10.199 to leave three questions or to pose three questions 00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:13.420 to our Norfolk Early Years practitioners to think 00:55:13.420 --> 00:55:15.860 about between now and our follow -up face -to 00:55:15.860 --> 00:55:17.980 -face meetings that we'll have for the communication 00:55:17.980 --> 00:55:22.639 hubs. And these questions are designed to initiate 00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:25.619 some really reflective conversations between 00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.719 peers and promote some really meaningful discussions 00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:32.239 at the face -to -face meetings. So, Anne. What 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:34.880 three questions would you like to encourage our 00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:38.059 early years providers to think about? Oh, what 00:55:38.059 --> 00:55:42.480 a lovely idea. So the first one would be, how 00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:46.840 do you feel about talking gobbledygook with children? 00:55:48.079 --> 00:55:51.619 gobbledygook being shorthand for babbling or 00:55:51.619 --> 00:55:55.239 making sounds that aren't necessarily words, 00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:59.380 but are hugely important in the development of 00:55:59.380 --> 00:56:03.880 speech and language and how you can link those 00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:07.500 with movement. So, say, for example, I think 00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:09.019 we've kind of touched on some of these things, 00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:11.820 but, you know, you're lifting a little one up 00:56:11.820 --> 00:56:16.340 off the floor and you go, and then you put them 00:56:16.340 --> 00:56:20.739 down on the floor and you go. So, actually using 00:56:20.739 --> 00:56:25.320 sounds and babbles and all of those important 00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:28.679 things that are part of that whole process of 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:32.159 beginning language, integrating them with movement, 00:56:32.219 --> 00:56:34.300 particularly with babies, but not exclusively, 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:36.719 actually, because I think three and four -year 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:39.219 -olds love to play with sounds. And, you know, 00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:41.039 we even could spend a lot of time talking about 00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:43.079 phonics and all the rest of it, but actually 00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:47.280 playing with sound. is a really, for me, a vital 00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:50.860 part of how we learn what we can do with our 00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:54.000 voices. And bearing in mind that many of our 00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.280 children will have sounds in their languages 00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:01.019 that aren't necessarily in yours. So, you know, 00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:03.260 play around with that as well. What other languages 00:57:03.260 --> 00:57:06.139 can you find out about and the sounds that you 00:57:06.139 --> 00:57:09.199 can experiment and play with and link it with 00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:15.519 movement? The second one would be... How do you 00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:18.900 feel about dizzy play? And actually, I do mean, 00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:21.500 how do you feel? How does it make you feel physically? 00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:25.579 Is it something that when you watch children 00:57:25.579 --> 00:57:27.539 engaging in dizzy play, and I would hope now 00:57:27.539 --> 00:57:31.219 you'd see why they do it and how it fits in terms 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:34.760 of physical development. What is your instinct? 00:57:35.619 --> 00:57:37.820 Do you feel that you need to tell them to be 00:57:37.820 --> 00:57:40.179 careful or to stop because they're going to make 00:57:40.179 --> 00:57:43.530 themselves dizzy? Point of. information here. 00:57:43.610 --> 00:57:46.230 That's why they're doing it. And that's why they 00:57:46.230 --> 00:57:50.170 need to do it. But it's fair to ask yourself 00:57:50.170 --> 00:57:54.590 first how you feel about it, because it is okay 00:57:54.590 --> 00:57:57.230 if it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's not, 00:57:57.250 --> 00:58:00.690 you know, it's not that you mustn't acknowledge 00:58:00.690 --> 00:58:03.170 how it makes you feel. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, 00:58:03.409 --> 00:58:06.090 it might make you feel queasy. It might make 00:58:06.090 --> 00:58:08.170 you feel as though you see an accident just about 00:58:08.170 --> 00:58:11.349 to happen. Have it reflect on how it makes you 00:58:11.349 --> 00:58:14.530 feel. and then have a reflection. Now you know 00:58:14.530 --> 00:58:17.230 there's a whole lot more to dizzy play, and that's 00:58:17.230 --> 00:58:19.030 just one way of describing it. There's lots of 00:58:19.030 --> 00:58:21.130 other more technical ways we could describe it. 00:58:21.969 --> 00:58:24.710 Now you know how important it is. How are you 00:58:24.710 --> 00:58:27.130 going to manage how you feel about it? And that 00:58:27.130 --> 00:58:30.190 might be a very justifiable and valid feeling, 00:58:30.329 --> 00:58:32.949 and how you're actually going to encourage it 00:58:32.949 --> 00:58:35.710 in your setting. And the final one would be, 00:58:35.809 --> 00:58:38.809 how do you feel about buttoning your lip now 00:58:38.809 --> 00:58:42.340 and again? Not all the time. Just now and again, 00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.519 how does it feel when you actually get yourself 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:50.360 to not talk and to think about the quantity of 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:53.760 talk as well as the quality of talk that you 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:57.500 have? Sometimes two good words are better than 00:58:57.500 --> 00:59:01.960 a whole paragraph of chatter. See how you feel 00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:06.929 about that. Oh, wow. Perfect, Dan. brilliant 00:59:06.929 --> 00:59:09.090 questions and I really think they're going to 00:59:09.090 --> 00:59:11.349 give our practitioners a real food for thought 00:59:11.349 --> 00:59:14.170 and really make them think and you know they 00:59:14.170 --> 00:59:16.369 can have those discussions in their staff meetings 00:59:16.369 --> 00:59:18.550 back at their settings but it's also going to 00:59:18.550 --> 00:59:20.909 be really great to revisit those questions at 00:59:20.909 --> 00:59:23.050 our face -to -face communication hub meetings 00:59:23.050 --> 00:59:25.030 and I think we're going to hear some interesting 00:59:25.030 --> 00:59:27.769 comments coming from our practitioners when they 00:59:27.769 --> 00:59:30.349 talk about those three questions. Well, I think 00:59:30.349 --> 00:59:32.769 that draws us nicely to a close. So thank you 00:59:32.769 --> 00:59:34.610 again, Anne, for joining us. It was a really 00:59:34.610 --> 00:59:37.389 enlightening conversation. So, you know, thank 00:59:37.389 --> 00:59:40.090 you again. We really enjoyed that. And hopefully 00:59:40.090 --> 00:59:42.750 our practitioners will too. Yes. Hello to everybody 00:59:42.750 --> 00:59:46.349 in Norfolk and good luck with your podcast. Thank 00:59:46.349 --> 00:59:49.179 you. Thank you. Thank you, Anne. We'd like to 00:59:49.179 --> 00:59:51.719 remind everybody that as part of our new Communication 00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:54.960 Hub format, this podcast will be followed up 00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:57.539 with a face -to -face session in your local area. 00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:01.340 And these start from March the 18th. If you have 01:00:01.340 --> 01:00:04.840 any questions or any feedback on this podcast 01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.119 that you'd like to let us know about, please 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:12.159 contact myself or Ashley on communicationandlanguageey 01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:14.699 at norfolk .gov .uk.