Hi everyone and welcome to the Norfolk Early
Years podcast Let's Talk series, a show that
helps early years practitioners and professionals
understand more about effectively supporting
children's speech, language and communication
development in the early years. I'm Ashley Cater
and I'm Jo Patterson. And we are Early Years
Communication and Language Development officers
within Norfolk County Council's Early Years team.
And today we are privileged to be joined by the
wonderful Anne O 'Connor, independent consultant,
trainer, author and co -founder of Primed for
Life, a venture which advocates for a wider understanding
of the body as a child's first place of learning.
In today's episode, we are going to be uncovering
the hidden links between children's physical
development and their communication development.
whilst exploring how practitioners can ensure
that they are offering the best opportunities
for physical play to their children. So, without
further ado, let's talk physical development.
Hi Anne, thanks for joining us for our first
episode today. How are you? I'm fine, thank you.
Very well. And you? I'm very well, thank you.
If it's okay with you, we're going to jump straight
into our conversation for today and we're going
to... start at the very beginning with a little
bit of background about yourself. So to quote
your book, Understanding Physical Development
in the Early Years, Linking Bodies and Minds,
it says, today's children may find their instinctive
biological drive for movement overruled by adults,
teachers, learning environments, programs and
policies, actively missing out on the key fundamental
developments for mind and body that can prime
them for life. So with this in mind, Anne, what
is the mission that you're on as an early year
specialist and how did you end up here? Ah, well,
perhaps it's worth saying, first of all, that
I've been around a very long time. I qualified
as a teacher way back last century in 1979. And
I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. Right
from first meeting my first reception teacher,
the lovely Miss Turner, who had a beehive. which
is a hairdo for those that won't remember, back
in the 60s. And she wore beautiful swishy skirts.
There was something so wonderfully sensory about
my first experiences in that reception class
with the chalk and the crayons and the paper
and the scissors and all these lovely things
that I couldn't wait to get my hands on. And
I... I also knew that I wanted to emulate that
safe, warm, encouraging and creative environment
that I'd known right from the beginning of my
early experience of school. It wasn't always
like that, but my reception class was. So I trained
as a teacher and I was trained in what was called
early years, which back then was from three -year
-olds to, wait for it, eight, all the way up
to eight. And then I worked over 24 years, mostly
in infant schools, but also primary schools in
the East End of London. I did the management
thing. I had two deputy headships and an extended
period as an acting head. And then I decided
to jump off that ladder as the national curriculum
took hold. And I felt increasingly uncomfortable
about the direction that education was going
in. So I followed my heart and I went to teach
a nursery class in a primary school. on the Isle
of Dogs, still in the East End. And then I had
the good fortune to be asked to create one of
the first all through early years units. So this
is even before the foundation stage. So we couldn't
even call them foundation stage units then. But
actually the important thing about this was it
was all through, where nursery and reception
were completely and totally integrated. Now,
during this time, I also became an adopted parent
to a child with a trauma history and a whole
alphabet of invisible disabilities. And eventually
I felt it was too much of a struggle for me juggling
his needs and a senior leadership role. So I
took the big decision to begin working from home,
building up my skills as a consultant, trainer
and a writer for Nursery World and other publications,
a lot of which I could do that in the midnight
hours. But it also kept me connected to the world
of early years. about which I became even more
passionate as my son taught me so much about
the importance of a child's earliest experiences,
mostly because of what he had missed out on.
So then you can fast forward a few years and
I had the good fortune to meet Anna Daly, with
whom I set up Primed for Life, when we discovered
a mutual passion and curiosity about the way
children's bodies often get left out of the equation.
when we're talking about progress and learning
and development, as though physical development
is something that just happens. And if you take
the physical development learning goals seriously,
it would seem that all physical development is
about is whether they can make their own way
to the toilet, holding a pair of scissors safely
without bumping into anyone. The incredible way
the body and the brain work together to achieve
a child's fullest potential. And this is right
from day one. Actually, no, it's from pre -birth.
So that's how Primed for Life was born and we've
been privileged to help raise awareness of the
importance of physical development as perhaps
we like to say the most prime of all the prime
areas because of the way it is essential for
both emotional health and for communication and
language development. But it does feel like it's
an ongoing struggle to fight for that awareness.
Do we have time for a little story here? Anna
and I were involved in a project where we're
visiting nurseries and a wonderful little movement
play scenario was developing with a group of
children where we were totally following their
lead. But there was this whole range of learning
and creativity and developmental movement happening
right up next to a door, actually, when all of
a sudden there was this children. And the staff
suddenly called all the children to attention
and told them to come away from the door so that
they could go and line up at the door to go into
another room for their movement session. And
this is not to blame the staff. OK, they were
doing it with the best of intentions. This was
part of their program day. It was part of their
structure. But the irony was not lost on us that
so often we have to interfere with the learning
in order to look like we're doing our jobs properly.
You know, when in fact the learning was taking
place there, the movement was happening there,
you know, right in front of us in an awkward
spot. Yes. And actually what the children, dare
I say, what the children got from being interrupted,
being made to line up. And these were three year
olds going into a different room and then doing
something to nursery rhymes. Perhaps was nothing
as powerful, like as powerful as what they were
doing when we were playing together. And that's
why it feels so important to us. And I think,
you know, we're thinking there particularly about
the work that Julie Fisher's been doing, interacting
or interfering. Yeah. Which really kind of, you
know, we've got a lot of connection with that.
So that's our mission, really, to skill everyone
up so that they can fight for children's right
to allow their brains and their bodies to work
together. And that so much of what practitioners
do or would do instinctively when they really
know their children, those things are way more
valid and valuable. the many of the programs
that people end up telling them they have to
buy into. That sounds like an extremely admirable
mission that you're on, Anne. Well, you know,
it's turned my hair grey, but, you know, it feels
worthwhile. And it's fun along the way, I have
to say, you know. Absolutely. What other job
gives you the opportunity to play as much as
ours does? Definitely. Thank you so much for
that, Anne. It was really interesting to hear
about. You know, your experiences, where you
started from and your passion for physical developments
really just come through there. So if we can
take a bit of a focus on physical development,
can you just explain exactly what we mean when
we say physical development and help us to understand
what's happening in that child's brain when they
engage in that physical play? Well, have you
got all day? OK, trying to capture that in a
snapshot. I suppose it's fair to say that physical
development probably includes everything you
think it includes. And when we ask people, we
usually hear things like muscles and joints and
health and exercise and gross and fine motor
skills and nutrition. But then multiply it, maybe
to include a million other things like sensory
development and the nervous system. And then
we can throw in words like interoception and
proprioception and the vestibular system, sensory
integration, and stuff that sounds very sciencey
and a bit scary, perhaps. So maybe it would be
better if we had a better word for it, maybe
something like neurophysiological development.
Though I'm not even sure if that's the right
term here, because I'm not a brain scientist.
I wouldn't even call myself any kind of a scientist.
But actually... That is exactly what we and all
of us who work with babies and young children,
that's what we are. We are in the business of
growing children's brains and their bodies. So
actually having a little bit of neuroscience
under our belts gives us the words and the signs
to be able to advocate for our children. And
that is all part of physical development. Because
typically the brain needs the body and the body
needs the brain for them to grow to the best
of the child's capability. and this might be
in ways that we understand as typical development
or it might even be atypical in which case it's
even more important that we understand things
like sensory integration so we can understand
why some children might be sensitive to things
like touch or sound and why some children can't
seem to get enough sensory sensation so they'll
go seeking sensations in ways that might get
them into trouble and that often get classified
as challenging behavior. So the more we understand
this stuff, the better we are able to understand
our children and our partners and our friends
and our work colleagues. And you know what? We
actually understand ourselves better too. So
to unpick some of those things very simplistically,
gross motor skills are the big motor movements
that we do involving major parts or maybe even
all of our bodies. And here's the thing, these
typically need to come first before the fine
motor skills. So if you take handwriting, for
example, that's a fine motor skill. But without
lots of experience of moving and feeling control
of our trunk, both the front and the back, so
that's our upper body, and in particular our
shoulder and the whole of our arms, and all of
that takes a good few years of movement experience,
and especially... We need playful, self -motivated
experience like climbing, swinging, hanging,
throwing, carrying, pushing, dragging, sweeping.
All of that needs to be taking place whilst all
the fine bones and the joints and the tendons
in those little hands and fingers and wrists
are taking their own time to develop. For the
fine motor skills to develop well and efficiently
so that then handwriting and all those other
fine motor skills can develop with ease and confidence.
So, you know, the watchword is gross motor skills
before fine motor skills. And then filling in
the gaps. If we're seeing children who we perhaps
think should have acquired all of those gross
motor skills and are ready for handwriting and
fine motor skills, and then actually looking
at them, being able to observe their play and
discovering that, in fact, there are some gaps
there. But having said all of that, it is important
to stress too that physical development isn't
just something that happens on the big stuff
out in the playground or outdoors. Children are
and should be constantly on the move. And a lot
of really important developmental movement play
can happen indoors and as part of your continuous
provision and not just in a programmed session
for it. And the same is true of the other word
I threw in before, the vestibular system, which
is a weird word for the sensory system that is
responsible for all our balance and ultimately
our ability to be still. It's linked to our vision
and it's connected to our inner ear and it's
hugely important. And I could take a whole day
just to bang on about that one. But it's something
that when it's working, we take it for granted
and we don't really know it's there. And when
it's not, we really do know about it. So if you've
ever had vertigo or been travel sick, then it's
been your vestibular system that's been out of
whack. And if we had another day to talk about
the link between the vestibular system and emotional
well -being and actually the part it plays in
feeling grounded and secure. And, you know, we
use the words, I'm having a wobble, meaning I'm
not feeling quite right. That's directly linked
to the way our vestibular system and our sense
of balance and being secure on the ground is
linked to our emotional and personal sense of
ourselves. If we imagine that I'm two or three
years old, for example, and I'm doing lots of
play in my setting that's developing my gross
motor skills and then my fine motor skills and
it's stimulating my vestibular system. How in
turn are all of those activities simultaneously
supporting my speech and language development?
Okay. So the first thing is to be aware that
for speech articulation, of course, there's a
difference between, you know, the two aspects
of communications, speech and language. But in
terms of speech, we need all of these muscles
and tiny little things, movements to be well
integrated enough to be able to articulate speech.
So there's movement going on there. And that
movement and the integration of that movement
is also linked to the brain in the way that the
brain can manage to kind of traffic control all
these different things that are going on in our
bodies at the same time. That's very simplistic,
but it's one aspect. There's also another few
theories about this as well. So if I say put
yourself on a roller coaster, whether or not
you like it, what's likely to happen when you
come down? You know, the big one. If it's me,
I'd be screaming my head off. Jo, do you enjoy
them? I don't. Can you remember enjoying them?
We're not the best people to take to a theme
park, are we really, between us? That's fine.
That's fine. Because actually the reality is
that whether or not you're scared of them, you're
probably still going to scream. And one of you
might be screaming in distress, but actually
the majority of people who choose to go on roller
coasters will be screaming. with joy and exhilaration,
and not deliberately. They don't go on and go,
I'm going to scream. That scream comes out. That's
the whole point. You slide down a slide, you
go, whee! It would seem that our vestibular system
is being very stimulated by those actions, and
that seems to be what makes us involuntarily
make sounds as well. to have the urge to vocalize,
even though it's a drive. We're not deliberately
thinking about it. The urge to do it is there.
So quite a few years ago now, Dr. A. Jean Ayres,
who is somebody I would definitely recommend
you reading if you're interested to find out
more about sensory integration, she suggested
that it might be the case that children who haven't,
for whatever reason, had enough vestibular experience.
in their earliest years, might not have that
same stimulation to vocalize. And that's actually
starting off with babbling as a baby. Now, it's
just a theory, but it often gets noted by speech
therapists that with some of their children,
their speech and language increases if they include
vestibular activities into their sessions, like
swinging on a swing first. And OTs, occupational
therapists, who are working with children with
balance issues, have often found that speech
and language have improved when the child's balance
improves. So there's definitely something in
there to take note of, isn't there? That's really
interesting. Do you think that taking everything
that you've said into account, it's important
for our practitioners to be offering opportunities
for vestibular stimulation as early as possible?
Well, how about if I say that the likelihood
that in every baby room these things are going
on from the minute... A parent hands over a baby
who's perhaps a little distressed and that practitioner
is jiggling the baby up, down and rocking them
slightly to soothe and comfort them. That's vestibular
stimulation. That's what's so wonderful about
the way adults are instinctively driven to help
children develop their sensory systems. And that
is one of the most important ways that that happens.
We rock. and sway with babies to soothe them
we jiggle them up and on on our knees and bounce
them up and down and even throw them up in the
air and that will be happening in baby rooms
too you know you don't need the equipment you
don't need the activity it doesn't need to be
in a lesson plan you know this is something that
instinctively adults are we have the urge to
do that and i think what we need to do there
is to be able to first of all recognize that
give validation for it you know A baby room in
general is a wonderfully stimulating place for
the vestibular system. You know, whether or not
you've got any fancy equipment, you know, it
will be. Because if you've got a practitioner's
arms and that practitioner knows that child well
enough to be able to think, actually, I think
what they might like to do is to be hung upside
down. I won't say hung upside down, but you know
what I mean? The sort of games that you can play.
with babies and young children where you let
them experience that wonderful tipping feeling
or falling through your knees as Humpty Dumpty,
all being done in a safe way with a practitioner
who knows the child well enough to know this
is what they're ready for. And actually is also
because it's really, really important at whatever
age, because sometimes children will tell us,
no, I didn't like that. Don't do it again. Stop.
Sometimes they will say, stop, stop. And they
mean do it again. We also know that one, don't
we? But equally, we need to be able to read what
a child is telling us with their body. You know,
stiffening or tension or just not feeling comfortable
because some child might not feel confident enough
to say, no, don't do that to the ground. But
actually, we can read it in their bodies. And
it's that connection that we have physically
that means that we're able to do that. And then
you've got all those wonderful shared experiences
that will be supporting the vestibular system.
And that will go on to include slides and, you
know, making your own slides of just the right
hike for a child, wobble boards and gym balls
that you can bounce on and swing back, playing
row, row, row the boat. There's a whole raft
of things that practitioners will be doing instinctively.
And actually, if they just, you know, if you
just take a little bit of time to think, what
do I do during the day? where I'm actually involved
in swaying and rocking and bouncing and jiggling
and all of that and going, that is vestibular
development. And look at me, I'm building that
child's brain, you know, and don't let anybody
diminish how important all of that playful stuff
is. Absolutely. As you were talking, you were
making me think about some of our nonverbal children
that are in our settings. And I was particularly
thinking about what you said about the roller
coaster example and those opportunities for involuntary
noises and screams and laughs. Would it be fair
to say that those kind of activities are useful
to encourage speech sounds from nonverbal children?
Is there a link there at all that, you know,
that play can be helpful for them to develop
that sense of voice? I think it's definitely
worth remembering that if our learning environments
are places for sitting still and not moving a
great deal, then, you know, regardless of how
much we offer, we're actually not providing the
base level of movement that these children will
need. And then if we recognise that some of our
children aren't getting the natural base level
anyway. you know, for whatever reason at home.
And we need to be aware, I mean, we've got children
coming into settings now who were COVID babies,
who may not have been as exposed to toddler groups
or, you know, soft play areas and all, just even
being out as much as in general we would have
hoped. So any kind of limitation. on those natural
instinctive movements is going to have a part
to play. So then if you then find yourself in
a learning environment that is very static and
quite restrictive, you're completely missing
out on the opportunity to fill in those gaps.
So it's the free movement that children are getting
and should be having in nursery environments
and in reception classes too that are actually
allowing them to make decisions for themselves.
And to be able to join in and to be encouraged
because some children will not necessarily be
seeking those activities and will need a little
bit of encouragement to do that. So for some
of them, it might be like going back to the babyhood
of being rocked and playing Humpty Dumpty and
those kinds of things. Matching their developmental
stage rather than their chronological age, as
it were. And then there will be some children
who are desperately seeking it. and will be going
out of their way to get as much of that experience
as they can. And if they're finding themselves
sat cross -legged on the carpet for a very long
time, their bodies and their brains together
will be saying, you need to move, mate. And so
they might set up their own rocking or their
own swaying or their own spinning around on their
bottom in that little space that they're allowed
to sit on. So actually, you know, children will
have that drive to do it for themselves. And
it's about us recognising, actually, this child
is telling me. It needs to move more. Yeah. So,
yeah, I mean, physical development, we talk about
it being the prime of the prime areas. There's
lots of debate about that. Actually, there's
none of them come first. But our explanation
of it is, and again, I want to do something visual
here, but basically thinking of they're not a
list, one, two, three. They're not a pyramid
with something at the top. They're actually an
inverted pyramid with physical development at
the base, holding up emotional on the one hand
and communication and language on the other.
You know, it is, it's the pinnacle. That's an
interesting way to think about it though. That
is a good visual. So like an upside down triangle
with physical development at the bottom. And
if you take away the physical development, well,
the other two will just go, you know. Yeah. They're
very mutually supportive, aren't they? They're,
like you said, very interlinked. You almost couldn't
separate them in some aspects. Mutually dependent.
And that's the problem, is that if we don't give
the recognition to one of them, we're actually
impacting on the other two as well. So, Anne,
I have a daughter, Isla, who is coming up for
two now. She'll be two in April. And I've really
noticed that over the last couple of months,
she has a real fascination with spinning. For
example, she loves spinning around on her own,
but she also enjoys spinning around on play equipment
or just being spun around in our arms. And in
addition to that, she also really loves hiding
too. So hiding in things, behind things, under
things, etc. There's a lot of hide and seek going
on at our house at the moment. So I was wondering,
developmentally, are there specific ages and
stages where children tend to exhibit a preference
for certain types of movement or play? Yes. I
mean, it's loose, obviously, in the way that
all children's development is. You know, they
don't all get up and walk on the same day. So,
you know, all of this does take its own time
scale. But yeah, definitely spinning. And I think
you would know now. why she's doing that spinning,
you know, what's going on in there. But also
she's discovering it feels good. And we all,
if we find a little movement that feels good,
we like to repeat it. And we repeat it because
of the feel good payback that we get. And let's
face it, the brain and the body are working together
there to give us that feel good payback in order
for us to develop and refine that movement. Because
if it's good for us. The body and the brain want
us to do more of it so that we get better at
it. And it isn't always about getting better
at something. Sometimes it's about embedding
it. So a lot of that spinning stuff, we don't
need to get better at spinning. What we do is
that it gets embedded in the brain and the brain
is going, yeah, okay, I'm getting enough of this
stuff now to be able to kind of go, yeah, the
vestibular system is developing. And we think,
certainly with the vestibular system, like a
lot of things. up until at least the age of seven
before it's, you know, it's firmly embedded.
So, yeah, you know, these things, they might
rise to a height and they're obsessed with spinning
and then it might fade away and then it might,
you know, it might bob up again. And hiding,
oh, hiding is such a fun one because that's where
I get to talk about proprioception. Proprioception
is another one of those lovely sensory things.
It's a sensory system and it's all about having
a sense of our inner body. You know what? It's
like having like having eyes on the inside and
a whole set of maps. It's I think it's Jill Connell
and Cheryl McCarthy refer to it as proprioception
as our inner GPS satellite sat nav. Yeah. And
they refer to the vestibular system as our inner
spirit level. So, you know, both of those things.
Yeah. So proprioception really is something that
has to be constantly being tested and stretched
because we are constantly stretching as babies.
You know what? The cardboard box you could fit
into easily last week. Well, maybe next week
you don't fit into quite so easily because of
that massive growth that's taking place all the
time. And babies are learning about where they
start and where they end. You know, I can fit
into this space. I can't fit into this space.
And it's proprioception ultimately as adults
that enables us to walk through an open doorway
without bumping into the doorframe. Importantly.
Yes, absolutely. It's what allows us to be able
to sit down on a chair without first having to
turn around and look at our bottoms as we're
lowering it onto the chair seat. It's about how
we can fasten the strings of an apron. behind
our back or how we can, you know, plait our hair
without seeing, you know, you might look in a
mirror, but you can't see what's going on behind
you. That's proprioception that enables us to
do that. So if you think of a toddler whose proprioception
is still very much developing, they're walking,
they kind of need to look at their hands to see
what their hands are doing. They need to look
at where their feet are going. Everything is
a sort of a much more... I won't say slower,
but it's a much more complex process as a toddler.
But once proprioception is well enough developed,
like vestibular, it's something you're not aware
of. You're no longer aware of it. And that's
when you get physical automatic mastery, which
means that you can walk down the stairs without,
you know, carrying a bundle of washing and not
have to look where your feet are going. It's
how you can get in and out of a car. Does that
also contribute to your speech, language and
communication development in the same way that
the vestibular system does? It's certainly in
the mix. And it's in the mix because, and again,
this is not an area totally of expertise on my
part, but it's in the mix because proprioception,
this whole idea of physical mastery, to be able
to move those muscles around your mouth. involves
physical automatic mastery not having to think
about it but you know how you have to think about
a word that's complicated or a new word in order
to be able to move the right bits of your mouth
and your tongue and all the rest of it um so
it's in the mix definitely and it's it's about
that that's much i think um you could parcel
up in the whole sensory integration element of
it which is you know quite a big thing to talk
about and i don't feel um totally qualified to
give you um chapter and verse on that one uh
it's fascinating and i'm still learning a lot
about that it's really interesting to hear what
you say about the way the brain and the body
how it all melds together doing stuff that we
automatically just do Whereas, yes, when you're
a small child, you're having to really sort of
think about it till you get into that mastery
sense of doing those things. And it is really
developing children's own sense of being, isn't
it? So they're really. understanding themselves,
which I guess will then help with their speech
and language, but it will also help with all
those other areas of social development, emotional
development. So it really sort of, like you said
earlier on with your inverted pyramid, it really
is sort of underpinning a lot of what children
are learning and developing. Yeah. And that's
even before we talk about interoception, which
is another sensory system. And that actually
enables us to understand our feelings and what
our body is telling us about how we feel and
how well our body is functioning. That's a whole
other system as well. Have I told you the story
about the little boy? for whom English wasn't
his first language, who was very, very anxious
arriving into nursery. So I observed this situation
and we were working with this nursery, but this
happened to be something that happened alongside.
And again, I'm kind of using the term continuous
provision because it's about the daily life of
a setting. It's not about a timetabled thing.
And it's about, in this instance, about... a
practitioner being brave enough to try something
that was a bit freaky, to be honest. So I was
kind of holding her hand by the side while she
attempted this. So this little lad arrived at
nursery. I don't think he was quite three. And
in fact, at this stage, nobody was quite sure
what his first language was, which I did pick
them up on. And actually, they needed to go and
find out what his first language was. But there
had been some confusion over his arrival and
his settling. And dad would bring him to nursery.
And as far as this child was concerned, he was
extremely miffed. You know, this was not a place
he wanted to be. And he certainly did not see
why his dad had to leave him there. And he had
really only one choice, which was to scream very
loudly and to shout and to cry. A little bit
of feet stamping, but mostly he was just extremely
distressed. I suggested that this practitioner
who was trying to engage him and trying to distract
him. And she knew he liked the small world animals.
So she had these out and he was having none of
it really. And she was talking, you know, constantly,
you know, encouraging him and comforting and
all the rest of it. And I just kind of went,
you know, stop talking. Sorry, I'll say that
again a bit louder. Stop talking was what I said,
but I whispered it to her. And she looked at
me, you know, cut the gabble. And we had talked
about this a little bit beforehand. And bless
her, she tried. And it was difficult. You could
see it was really difficult. And of course it
is. As practitioners, we are encouraged to talk
constantly at children, to grow their vocabulary,
to be constantly engaging them in language and
discussion and questions and all the rest of
it. So it's really difficult to suddenly go,
actually stop talking. And it's really quite
difficult to stop talking to a child who is distressed
as well. But as my child once said to me when
I was saying, it's OK, it's OK, when it's not
OK. And I thought, yeah, you're right, actually.
And so we have to think very carefully about,
you know, it's OK to shush, you know, use comforting
sounds. But actually, sometimes the talk is just
too much. In this instance, once she got used
to the idea of not talking. And she began to
play with the animals. And then again, I suggested
then that she mirror what he was doing with the
animals. So not to play with him, not to lead
the play, not to take the play anywhere, but
just to mirror. And again, she found this quite
difficult to begin with because we are so used,
aren't we, to thinking we must take it further
forward. We must move it on. You know, oh, it's
the giraffe lying down. Okay, so she'd learned
not to say anything, but then she was manipulating
the giraffe to try and communicate something
to the child. I was like, no, just do exactly
what the child is doing. Mirror the child's movements.
And these were very tiny movements, a lot of
fine motor control to manipulate this little
giraffe. And it was almost as if the child was
attempting to distract himself. He was still
crying quietly to himself. And anyway, at some
point, The magic happened. And it did feel like
magic, I have to say, to observe it. But the
practitioner really got it. And she began to
mirror the tiny little movements that the child
was making with his giraffe with her animal.
And at some point where the magic really happened
was when the child noticed this. And he noticed
that she had noticed him and that she was really
paying attention to him. And very slowly, gradually,
the crying stopped. His breathing slowed down,
and so did her breathing slow down. The tension
in his body dissipated. The tension in her body
dissipated. And the two of them spent ages just
moving these animals around. And eventually,
a little bit of connection. The animals were
connecting, yeah? Now, the next day, I wasn't
there, but I was told that the child came in.
Yes, he was distressed and he went straight for
this practitioner. She was the one he was now
prepared to allow to comfort him. The following
week, he would still make for her every morning,
but he was actually coming into nursery a lot
happier. So, you know, the happy ever after story,
the happy ending. But for me, that was evidence
of a practitioner's bravery. to try something
out of their comfort zone, which sounds easy.
And in fact, to somebody observing, looks like
they're not even doing their job properly. It
was quite the opposite. And the connection was
what made all the difference to that child. And
that, I think, is what it's all about. It is.
And it's that child having somebody coming into
their world, isn't it? That adult has stepped
into their world. They can see where that child
is, where that child's coming from. And I think...
It's really nice that you've touched on that
because actually, you know, we do have a lot
of English as an additional language children
in Norfolk and actually it's reminding staff
that actually, like you said, we went through
that whole bit about questioning, questioning,
now it's commenting and one question and actually
it's having that bravery as a practitioner to
step back. And be able to just observe the child
and just see what they're doing and how you can
mirror that. And that's a really, like you said,
it's a difficult thing to do. But once you're
able to do it, it means so much to that child.
And it's having that non -verbal communication
with that child. It's still a form of communication,
but you're communicating in their way. So it's
really good to hear that that's happening. And
it becomes another thing in your kit bag, your
toolbox of things. So it's not that you never
talk again to a child. It's not that you never
lead the play again. It's another thing that
you've got in your tool bag to be able to draw
on when it seems appropriate. And it's so much
about observing and knowing that child. And it
allows you to observe them better. And it's good
for all our children. And what it does, certainly
for a child with EAL or a child with SEND or
a shy child, it takes the burden of talk off
them. You know, children know that they're expected
to reply, to answer questions, to engage with
us. And for some children, you take away that
burden, that obligation. Actually, you remove
a whole load of stress from them. You take away
children's stress. You're actually able to get.
You know, the child is going to is going to wallow
in that stress free environment or stress less
environment and actually be able to move forward.
And I wanted to jump topic slightly, if that's
OK with you. And I wanted to talk about that.
kind of age -old concern really that physical
play particularly that rough and tumble play
and the big gross motor skill play like climbing
and balancing and hanging upside down and jumping
off things could result in someone getting hurt
I think that can be a bit of a worry for practitioners
sometimes so I was wondering what you would say
to those practitioners who are worried about
injuries and who have perhaps become a little
bit more risk averse in their choices of activities?
And yeah, of course people are worried about
it. We've become a risk averse society. And there's
also very good reasons why we have health and
safety policies. You know, there are children
who are alive today because of health and safety
policies. And then we have to work out, now hang
on a minute, what is, what are the principles?
What are the non -negotiables here? And the non
-negotiable for me... is that children need to
grow to learn how to do their own risk assessment.
And they will only do that by being exposed to
challenge, let's call it challenge in this context,
that enables them to find out how to manage and
also how to make decisions for themselves about
what's a real risk, what's a danger, what they're
prepared to have a go at, what they're not quite
ready for yet. So if all your life you've only
ever experienced falling off something onto rubber
crumb, you don't know what it feels like. to
land on concrete or a paving slab or grass or
a muddy puddle. You actually have to feel those
experiences to learn how to manage your body.
And particularly with regards to proprioception
and the fact that our bodies are constantly changing
as you get older and the body matures, you need
to be able to know how to manage that risk. You
need to be able to weigh up something and go,
yeah, I'm ready to give that a go. Or say...
Please, can you help me? I'm stuck at the top
of the climbing frame and I don't think I can
get down by myself. And then that comes down
to us being able to go, OK, how am I going to
help this child in a way that actually takes
them to where, you know, it's classic Vygotsky
scaffolding zone of proximal development. You've
got a child stuck at the top of the climbing
frame, you know, like the kitten up the chimney.
They managed to get there, but they can't find
their way down. The simplest thing is to lift
them off and put them down. And if they're terrified
and they need to be down straight away, well,
of course you'll do that. But actually, if this
is a learning moment and it feels the right time,
you're going to stand close behind that child.
You're going to help them slide their hands up
to be able to grip, but to slide their hands
slowly down if it's a ladder or whatever. To
be able to stretch out one leg and one toe and
one foot. You might even help them find the next
run of the ladder. But you're there, you're behind
them. They know it's safe. And if their bodies
will be telling you, as well as their voices
maybe, yeah, I'm prepared to give this a go.
It's scary, but I know I'll be OK. Do you think
it's almost inevitable that risk has to go hand
in hand with physical play? Yes, I suppose. Because
actually, the minute you get up off the floor,
you're taking a risk, aren't you? Yeah. Just
think of what it, perhaps it's just as well that
we don't think, but, you know, a baby who has
just learned to walk, what risks are they taking,
you know, just to get across the floor, you know,
risking that thump as they land on their bottoms,
usually covered in a nappy, so it's a little
bit softer. And yeah, they haven't got that far
to go, but it's a, you know, it's a shock. And
actually, some children. learn to to enjoy that
experience of putting themselves at risk you
know i watched my little great niece recently
i bought her a wobble board for christmas i don't
know if you know what i mean so it looks like
a little a wooden arch yeah i don't know what
you mean yeah and you can stand on it and wobble
actually what she likes to do is to turn it over
because they're multi -purpose these things and
she likes to stand at the top and then slide
down and inevitably falls down and lands on her
bottom and she does that over and over again
because falling actually the fear and the management
of it feels good so actually the feel good is
giving her the payback that says i'm going to
do this so that eventually actually it won't
be a risk for her because she can manage it very
well um but also the emotional sense of i you
know i know what i can do now um so I think we
have to find ways of being able to do that. It
doesn't mean we absolve ourselves of all responsibility
because we still have to look out for hazards.
And it's about knowing the difference between
a hazard and a risk. And a hazard is something
that gets in the way of us being safe to do what
we need to do. It shouldn't be there effectively.
So, you know, a rucked up carpet or a nail sticking
out of something. That's not a risk. That's a
hazard. It's our responsibility to check our
outdoor spaces every morning to make sure there
are no new hazards there. A risk is something
that can be part of our play. And it's something
that we can bring into our play. You know, someone
else can put it there, but very often it's when
a child brings that risk in themselves, they
are actually stretching themselves. And sometimes
they will say, I want to do this, but I need
you to help me with it. Yeah. That's our role
there. I think it's really interesting what you
were saying there about the child bringing in
the risk sometimes, that kind of risk element
that it's almost like they are much more risk
tolerant than us as adults and they want to explore
and they want to try new things, even if that
does mean, you know, falling off and bumping
their knee, cracking their head, you know, whatever
that might be. And it got me thinking a little
bit about those behaviours that we sometimes
see in settings that... at first glance you might
think look challenged like like a challenging
behavior something that's unwanted that we'd
rather they weren't doing but actually from the
child's perspective they're just playing and
they're just exploring and wanting to to learn
and to try new things um And I think very closely
related to that is that repetitive schematic
play, isn't it? Like I was talking about my own
experiences with my daughter earlier, you know,
the constant spinning, the constant climbing
as well and hiding, those kind of things. If
I was a practitioner experiencing perhaps within
my setting, lots of different schematic play
going on. that is more easy to, I want to say,
manage with air quotes, but also some that is
more challenging when you've only got maybe one
or two pairs of hands and children wanting to
jump from different objects and do all of those
things. What kind of advice would you give them
really for, I guess, a... identifying schematic
behaviour and perhaps you could tell us a little
bit more about that and you know why that's so
developmentally important but also how practitioners
can channel that in a safe and positive way.
Yeah good question. My kind of understanding
of schemas and I might this isn't an in -depth
understanding by the way but simplistically is
that children use schemas to make sense of the
world, really. And because it's giving them more
and more information about the wider world and
how they might connect these schemas to the wider
world, they are getting information from it.
And so they're going to want to keep doing it.
And and sometimes that is about refining it,
you know, repeating an action in order to refine,
to get better at doing something. And sometimes
it is just because it's giving them more and
more information about themselves and about the
way the world works. And obviously, there are
lots of, you know, classifications of schemas.
And, you know, it can be it can be really interesting
to be plotting those and to be recognizing them.
I think the tie -in there for me with children's
physical behaviours that may be linked to their
schema, they may be linked to their biological
drive that they have to develop and refine something
or to gain automatic mastery or for a sensory
stimulation, is about the child's recognising
that there's a drive there. In the first instance,
the child is not doing this in order to annoy
us. It will feel sometimes like they're doing
it to annoy us, but actually that's not what
it's about. And that's our work is to do that
thing for ourselves which goes, okay, this isn't
about me. This isn't about that child being annoying.
I'm recognizing that because you probably already
told them twice, three times, four times not
to do it, they're still doing it. Okay, that
is telling you something. You know, that drive,
that urge is there. Then you're trying to work
out why. And very rarely is it in order to annoy
us. Very, very, very rarely is it for that. If
ever, I would say. But that's a whole other discussion.
Part of that awareness and understanding is actually
about skilling ourselves up in things like physical
development. Being able to recognize the kinds
of behaviors that children do in order to build
their proprioception, to build their vestibular
system. So that actually to be able to recognize,
as you said, your little one spinning, okay,
you know where that's coming from now. And actually
in that context, you can then use it and you
can use it in helpful ways for the child. Now,
that still doesn't take into account when a child
is doing something that actually is great for
them, but maybe isn't great for everybody else.
Sometimes we also have to kind of go well actually
is it just because when I'm reading a story it's
easier on my brain and my eyes and my general
stress levels if everyone is sitting still with
their legs crossed. Sometimes we also need to
go well actually is sitting still on the floor
with our legs crossed the only way to really
listen to a story and actually have I got some
work to do here about how I can manage to tell
a story and how maybe I use more of my body than
I have done previously. in order to be able to
respond and mirror what the children are giving
me when they're moving. Because very often, children
are driven by a story to want to move. You know,
they're already acting it out, aren't they? But
also, some children will be thinking, well, actually,
if I hung upside down off the sofa to listen
to this story, my brain feels a lot calmer. And
that actually feels quite good. Of course, you
can't have 15 children all hanging upside down
off the sofa, can you? I get that. But it's also
about recognizing, well, that if it's okay to
let one person get comfortable in the way that
suits them, you can actually let everyone get
comfortable. So maybe some people prefer to lie
on their tummies. Some people prefer to kneel
up. Some children will need to move every three
seconds because their bodies, you know, actually
that's how, you know, that's... linked to their
development of proprioception and the muscles
of the tendons because actually the body is triggered
and stimulated to move every few seconds in a
child that that is science you know once we start
to look at things a little bit differently we
reframe things we have a little bit of a mind
shift i'm not saying that every story has to
be a free -for -all i'm just saying we open up
to that but also if what we're seeing are children
who are clearly sensory seeking by these actions,
then maybe we need to find ways of filling up
their sensory cup in advance of things like a
story time, perhaps. So that means that a child
who is always spinning or twizzling when it's
carpet time, what are we doing for them outdoors
where it's much safer for them to engage in the
kind of risky or energetic or vigorous kind of
behavior they seem to be telling us they need?
If we think of the senses, everybody has these
cups, you know, and you've got a certain amount
of sensory stimulation has to be in there. And
for some children, there's a leak in the bottom.
So their cup never gets filled. And some children,
there's only a little bit of a dripping tap and,
you know, the whole thing overflows. So it's
about finding ways of proactively responding
to those sensory needs so that other times children
won't have. that same drive that same urge won't
overwhelm everything else does that sort of make
sense i think it's really interesting what you
said about being reflective of your own practice
as well and actually thinking about why are you
asking the children to do what you're asking
them to do is there real purpose behind that
or is it actually just as you said that's what
everyone thinks we're supposed to do Exactly.
Yeah. You know, and I think when you've probably
been in your profession for a long time, you
just probably do get used to doing the things
in a certain way because that's how they've always
been done. But there's certainly room for wider
thinking a lot of the time. And that's a really
useful point for practitioners to take away,
I think. And that is to say, you know, I totally
understand the limitations and the difficulties
of, you know. lots of children and not enough
staff and not enough space and not enough time
and all of those things I totally get it you
know I yeah I have been there I have worn that
t -shirt but I know it's even worse now and I
know there are so many things that are weighing
heavily on practitioners so you know my hat goes
off to you all you know and and again you know
Always thanks for how you kept the world going
during COVID. And, you know, I will hark back
on that, but you did, guys. So I think that's
really important. Definitely. Wow. Well, thank
you so much, Anne. We're almost at the end of
our podcast. We've talked about such a wide variety
of things, such a lot of positive things. And
we really appreciate you joining us today on
our first episode of Let's Talk series. And I
know I have thoroughly enjoyed learning more
about how physical development is so sort of
interconnected and intertwined with all those
other. areas of development as well and it's
been really interesting to listen to so thank
you once again and we really hope that everyone
listening to the podcast at home has enjoyed
this conversation and that they've learned something
new or gained a new insight that they can then
share with their colleagues but before we round
off this podcast we'd really like to start a
closing tradition whereby we ask our guest speaker
to leave three questions or to pose three questions
to our Norfolk Early Years practitioners to think
about between now and our follow -up face -to
-face meetings that we'll have for the communication
hubs. And these questions are designed to initiate
some really reflective conversations between
peers and promote some really meaningful discussions
at the face -to -face meetings. So, Anne. What
three questions would you like to encourage our
early years providers to think about? Oh, what
a lovely idea. So the first one would be, how
do you feel about talking gobbledygook with children?
gobbledygook being shorthand for babbling or
making sounds that aren't necessarily words,
but are hugely important in the development of
speech and language and how you can link those
with movement. So, say, for example, I think
we've kind of touched on some of these things,
but, you know, you're lifting a little one up
off the floor and you go, and then you put them
down on the floor and you go. So, actually using
sounds and babbles and all of those important
things that are part of that whole process of
beginning language, integrating them with movement,
particularly with babies, but not exclusively,
actually, because I think three and four -year
-olds love to play with sounds. And, you know,
we even could spend a lot of time talking about
phonics and all the rest of it, but actually
playing with sound. is a really, for me, a vital
part of how we learn what we can do with our
voices. And bearing in mind that many of our
children will have sounds in their languages
that aren't necessarily in yours. So, you know,
play around with that as well. What other languages
can you find out about and the sounds that you
can experiment and play with and link it with
movement? The second one would be... How do you
feel about dizzy play? And actually, I do mean,
how do you feel? How does it make you feel physically?
Is it something that when you watch children
engaging in dizzy play, and I would hope now
you'd see why they do it and how it fits in terms
of physical development. What is your instinct?
Do you feel that you need to tell them to be
careful or to stop because they're going to make
themselves dizzy? Point of. information here.
That's why they're doing it. And that's why they
need to do it. But it's fair to ask yourself
first how you feel about it, because it is okay
if it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's not,
you know, it's not that you mustn't acknowledge
how it makes you feel. If it makes you feel uncomfortable,
it might make you feel queasy. It might make
you feel as though you see an accident just about
to happen. Have it reflect on how it makes you
feel. and then have a reflection. Now you know
there's a whole lot more to dizzy play, and that's
just one way of describing it. There's lots of
other more technical ways we could describe it.
Now you know how important it is. How are you
going to manage how you feel about it? And that
might be a very justifiable and valid feeling,
and how you're actually going to encourage it
in your setting. And the final one would be,
how do you feel about buttoning your lip now
and again? Not all the time. Just now and again,
how does it feel when you actually get yourself
to not talk and to think about the quantity of
talk as well as the quality of talk that you
have? Sometimes two good words are better than
a whole paragraph of chatter. See how you feel
about that. Oh, wow. Perfect, Dan. brilliant
questions and I really think they're going to
give our practitioners a real food for thought
and really make them think and you know they
can have those discussions in their staff meetings
back at their settings but it's also going to
be really great to revisit those questions at
our face -to -face communication hub meetings
and I think we're going to hear some interesting
comments coming from our practitioners when they
talk about those three questions. Well, I think
that draws us nicely to a close. So thank you
again, Anne, for joining us. It was a really
enlightening conversation. So, you know, thank
you again. We really enjoyed that. And hopefully
our practitioners will too. Yes. Hello to everybody
in Norfolk and good luck with your podcast. Thank
you. Thank you. Thank you, Anne. We'd like to
remind everybody that as part of our new Communication
Hub format, this podcast will be followed up
with a face -to -face session in your local area.
And these start from March the 18th. If you have
any questions or any feedback on this podcast
that you'd like to let us know about, please
contact myself or Ashley on communicationandlanguageey
at norfolk .gov .uk.