Hi Kerrie, I'm so happy to have you in the podcast.
I'm not going to waste a single minute and just
give you the floor to let you introduce yourself.
Hi Keri, I'm so happy to have you in the podcast.
I'm not going to waste a single minute and just
give you the floor to let you introduce yourself.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so
excited we get to do this. It's such a novel
idea and nice to be able to talk to people from
different generations and hopefully help people
but my name is Kerrie Leonard. I have a couple
of titles maybe. I am a Paralympian. I've represented
Ireland at the Tokyo and Paris Paralympics and
my sport is archery and recently retired from
international archery this summer. And then beyond
that professionally, I've worked in US tech companies
for the last number of years. I have a master's
in marketing and I also was raised on a farm.
So that has a very distinct impact on your life.
If you know, you know. And I cannot wait for
us to deep dive. But right before that, can you
please share with us your definition of success?
That is a great question. And that is a really
big question. I know it is. I think we chase
success a lot. You know, we are constantly looking
outside of ourselves for validation of success.
There's that saying, comparison is the thief
of joy. And I really do believe that. For me,
success is more about contentment. I do set big
goals at the start of a year, but it's more guidelines
for myself rather than actual serious things
to stick to. I'm surrounded by a lot of... people
with high performance mentality. And if you're
trying to live up to the, that expectation of
success, you're never going to get there. You're
never going to be happy. I do not to be naive,
but I do have that mindset and I do have jealousy
of other people when they're succeeding. But
for me, I never want someone else not to receive
their success. So I think jealousy is a really
important emotion because it drives me to be
better. But for me, success is actually contentment.
And that's more of a feeling rather than a result.
Oh, you mentioned so many great points already.
I would love for you to just share a little bit
more about something you said. Most of us, a
lot of us are seeking external validation. How
does someone work on this, move away from waiting
for the external validation, for the external
recognition? I think that's come with age. I
don't think I'm that old, but it has come with
age. How do I sort of explain this? So my definition
of success, usually, or realization of success,
usually comes out of quite negative of things
so you know when I was a good example of this
when I did my master's I live in an area of Ireland
that if you don't leave the house at a certain
time of the day you will be stuck in the traffic
for hours on end so I would leave the house very
early in the morning to get into university I
do a few hours in the morning and then at the
end of the day, I would stay on for a number
of hours so that I could I wasn't sitting in
traffic and I wasn't wasting my time. And a couple
of months in, my stress level was rising and,
you know, it was getting to a bit of a breaking
point. And I realized, well. You arrive here
two hours before the day starts. You leave two
hours after the day ends. So this course is designed
to make you fail. And it's designed to put you
under pressure to get the best results out of
you. So when I realized that, it meant that.
At the end of the day, if my work wasn't completed,
I could be content with leaving it where it was
and picking it up the next morning and starting
again. And that took a lot of pressure off the
last six months of my master's degree. Similarly,
when I went to work US multinational firm during
COVID, you had a situation. where we're working
from home, work creeps into your personal time.
And I'm sure it's the same if you're in school,
you know, you, and you're coming into exams,
you never feel like there's enough time of the
day. And I certainly felt like I wanted to make
an impact. And I put myself under a lot of pressure
in that role. But again, a few months in, and
that anxiety was rising again. And I had to ask
myself the question, look, you start at 9am,
you finish at 6pm, you don't really take breaks,
but you're not succeeding in completing the work.
So your place can only be so full and you need
to be okay with it not being finished at the
end of the day. That's not necessarily what your
manager wants to hear or your directors or...
your teachers or whoever it is but there has
to come a certain point where you have to know
fundamentally know that you have done as much
as you can and any external pressure coming in
is not going to change that so I know it's a
really long way of answering it but I really
do stop myself I really have a very direct conversation
with myself in times of pressure. And I ask myself
directly, are you doing everything that you possibly
can here? Have you left any stone unturned? And
if the answer is yes, I'm doing everything I
can. I know there's nothing else I can do. Then
I have to be happy that that's where I am in
life. other pressure is just going to bring me
down and ultimately harm my mental health and
actually the quality of the work that I do. Let
me suggest you a four -step strategy, more or
less following what Kerry just advised you. So
here you are. You're facing a very difficult
situation, a challenging situation, you name
it. First, analyze it. This is what's happening.
My internal expectation or X, Y, Z. The external
expectation or X, Y, Z. The second thing is you
start strategizing. This is your time you have.
This is what you can do for learning and then
for training. This is what you can do. Then you
divide exactly what you need to do by block or
by steps. Whether you need to learn, whether
you need to train, whether you need to practice.
And then the third step is you looking back.
You're recognizing that you did everything you
could. That nothing else could have been done.
And then the last step would be practicing self
-talk. Telling yourself things like, I did my
best. I managed what was in my control. I'm ready.
We are sharing this with you, but it's incredibly
difficult. And so the idea here is that it's
not a solution that anyone can just adopt and
that's going to work. But here, we're just inviting
you to try it. And potentially from there, you'll
find better solutions that work for you. Okay,
now let's chat about... your early teenage life
can you tell us how you were your interests your
passions how you were doing in class your favorite
classes and least favorite one yeah of course
i probably am a little bit strange in that i
have a disability i'm in a wheelchair i a lot
of people i would say when they have their disability
they're born with their disability or they acquire
their disability And that's typically, I see
a lot of people in their older teens or early
twenties who acquire their disability. I acquired
my disability when I was six and from six to
about 12, you're learning all these lessons and
you're adapting to what life looks like. But
then when you hit 12 or 13, And I think earlier
nowadays, but at the time, I was probably a little
bit more insulated. But your peers start to notice
differences and they start to also create alliances
or they start to map out what the world looks
like and how they should behave in that world,
their role in that world. So I found my early
teens that I was bullied and then I isolated
myself. The friend groups that I thought I had
weren't really there, weren't really as strong
as I needed them to be. And rather than facing
it, I moved schools. I went to a different school
than my... people I went to primary school with.
And then even at that, you know, I had been,
I'd been nervous about making connections. Then
when I did, I found that I was, they were weak
connections. So I found that I was losing them
and it just created this, this unfortunate environment
for me. to deal with. And I was different because
I was in a wheelchair. So a lot of different
emotions happening at the same time. So I decided
to treat school as a temporary situation. And
I decided to keep my head down and just try to
get through it as quickly as possible. Now, two
things happened. So when I was 16, I had an operation
and I received flowers and cards from the people
I had been in school with initially. And I looked
at the cards and I, you know, not that I was
conscious of any anger or anything towards these
children, but I remember receiving the cards
thinking, well, why is that person sending me
a card? Because they... Word particularly nice
to me when I was growing up. And I realized that
we all live in our own world and we all think
that we're the topic of conversation when actually
nobody cares about you in the nicest possible
way. But everyone's so worried about themselves.
No one cares about you. So when I was in hospital
and I was. processing these cards, I realized
actually the only person who's holding on to
these memories and the only person who's affected
by these memories is myself. And don't ask me
how, but my brain just had this epiphany to let
it go. So let the anger go, let the emotion go,
because the only person it was affecting was
me. Looking back, I personally don't know how
I made that decision. And I know as a teenager,
people hold on to a lot of anger. So I wouldn't
blame anyone else for rejecting that advice.
But for some reason, I had an epiphany and the
weight lifted off me. So that was kind of the
shedding that piece. And then when I was... 17,
I suddenly walked into school one day and there
was a surprise birthday for me, which was very
sweet and a little bit shocking because this
new group of people, I did not let them in at
all, which led to another epiphany, which was
people will either like you or hate you. And
there's nothing you can really do. But limiting
who you are to protect yourself and not being
your true self actually, again, only affects
you because there's haters and there's everybody
else. The haters are still going to hate you.
So just be yourself is kind of the 50 I had from
that experience. So they're just two. kind of
school stories that I think are relevant in this
conversation. Thank you so much for sharing,
Kerry. And if you're facing similar situations
wherever you are, let's learn from her own experience
now that she's looking back at it. So first,
I think her learnings are explaining you how
you don't have to carry that weight. It's inviting
you to let go. Because first, people only care
about themselves. So whatever you're doing, thinking
about what you said, how people are thinking
about it, just imagine that people are doing
the same thing with their own words. And the
second thing is also reminded about the things
that you can control and the things you can't
control. So when Kerrie was saying people will
either hate you or like you, those things you
can't control. So just be yourself. Again, this
is extremely difficult, but just try it. Kerry,
you did mention that you decided to leave the
school. Can you think about any other way for
someone who's facing similar challenges to make
it through that time when they have already tried
so many different ways? They've talked to teachers,
they've talked to anyone who's part of the structure,
who's technically supposed to help them. So there's
a couple of things. So it was easy for me to
recognize what was happening in terms of bullying.
Even if me understanding what was happening wasn't
a nice experience. But I was in a very small
school, very local school. There was 12 people
in my class. It was tiny. A religious school.
And so I witnessed two other people get bullied
before me. One person who was not the same religion.
And they left the school and then someone who
was on the larger side and they left the school.
So by the time it came to me, I realized, oh,
this is only happening because I physically have
a difference. So I understood why I was being
targeted as opposed to, you know, being completely
confused by that. Then the ability to change
schools was easy. because it was going into secondary
school or into high school, my parents would
not let me leave until I'd finished school completely.
So it was easier for me to move to a different
school. With hindsight, the only thing I can
say on getting through it was you have to just
get through, unfortunately. I realized when I
got to university that my differences and my
view on the world created a tribe because in
secondary school, we're all trying to fit in.
We all wear a uniform. We all are modeled to
be the same. people and if you are not then um
it's the weakest herd member so you're targeted
when you get to university then you do find that
group and I had this recently with um with a
family member of mine who had a difficult time
in secondary school moved into university and
was still struggling And I said, oh, you look,
I've been there. You will find your group of
weirdos in university. Just just believe you'll
be fine. And it took him, I would say, nine months.
But now he has a very strong friend group and
they're you know, they are together. as much
as possible so it does get better and it's so
cliched and it's like people who are having a
hard time the last thing they want to hear is
it gets better but it does you just have to You
just have to suck it up and get through it. And
I know we don't use that language nowadays. We
don't tell people to suck it up. It's not sensitive.
But the only way I can say this is to be as direct
as possible, that if you are someone who is going
through a hard time and you're really contemplating
what you do and whether your life is worth it,
The world is so much, has so much less color
in it when people choose to not be here anymore.
And so I would never want someone to feel like
they're never going to get through their situation.
Teenagers think the world is going to end on
the smallest issue that seems so big at the time
I know. But you look back and realize I got through
it and it made me tougher. And I think people
just need to know that. Just tough it out. It's
more important that you stay here with us than
choose to do something that we can't take back.
You are only getting stronger. It will take time.
but you'll make it through. Kerrie, do you have
any last advice on this? It depends on the context.
So if you are in school or in work and worked
on a project or you've made a decision and the
results or it's not what you expected and Or
you're worried that it's not going to be what
you expected and you're worried that everyone
is going to find out. People don't mind you making
mistakes as long as you don't continuously make
the same mistakes over and over again. So people
do forgive mistakes. That's the first thing.
Secondly, one day in the grand scheme of your
life is a very, very small percentage. So it's
just one day to get through and move on to the
next. But yeah, fundamentally, if you do something
like this, if you do a podcast with somebody,
most of the time people are not focusing on...
what anyone else is saying they're listening
back to hear their own voice and to think did
I answer that question correctly oh my god me
me me me me me me um so your to you your problems
are amplified 10 50 times but most people don't
even recognize the mistakes and most people aren't
actually paying attention to you because they're
also having the same thoughts as you about themselves.
They absolutely are. And consistently about anything
that happened throughout the day. Yes. And the
other thing, now that we're talking about this,
is I grew up in a time that I spent my childhood
without the internet, but I spent my teenage
years and my now adult life with the internet.
Which... you know, lasts forever. So I personally
like to do things that don't live on the internet.
So doing something just for myself or with other
people and not posting about it. So even if you,
you know, you said something entirely wrong or
did something entirely wrong, not that it will
come back to haunt you, but I know You just keep
replaying videos over and over again and go,
oh my God, why did I say that? Why did I do that?
Oh God, that's, whereas in the moments where
I just hang out with my friends and I just live
offline, I get to have fun and not have to worry
about things haunting me. We also just, the psychology
or the biology psychology of a teenager is you
feel things you know so intensely that when you
get a one piece of criticism it you know even
if you had 10 positive comments that one piece
of criticism cuts so deeply for people that they
can't they I we can't process it because it just
seems so targeted. It is extremely difficult.
So what would be your advice to help someone
manage those, to distance yourself from those
criticisms that hurt so much? I think my comparison
is going to be a bit strange here, but I have
a friend who is going through um a medical issue
at the moment a very hard time oh i'm so sorry
and they sent me a message today saying i googled
it oh god and they don't get results of their
diagnosis for three weeks and i want get off
the internet until your doctor rings you do not
do not look at anything because um you go to
the most, to the darkest places when that happens.
And if we compare it to somebody who is going
through a hard time online, feels like they're
being bullied, if you go on the internet in those
moments, that will validate that you are being
bullied as opposed to getting off the internet.
And going back to what I said earlier, which
is having a really direct conversation with yourself
and going, hang on, do I like me? Because that's
the only voice that matters. Do I like myself?
This is such a powerful question, Kerry. Thank
you so much. And I think it connects to self
-talk, which is something we'll talk about very,
very soon. And to wrap up on your teenage years,
can you tell us a little bit more about how your
classes went, how your grades went, how your
exams went? Yeah, so when I did my final exams,
my back or my leaving certificate in Ireland,
I had an operation just before on the back that
we were talking about. And so when it came to
sitting my final exams, I actually couldn't because
I was in so much pain. I hadn't actually taken
that into consideration. So I pushed myself to
do well, but it wasn't realistic because I wasn't
in a position to study. I wasn't taking it seriously.
But when I got the results of those exams, I
wasn't happy with them. And so I decided to repeat.
And so I did my final year again, which people,
when you're trying to make that decision, a lot
of people unhealthily criticize. Right. And say,
oh, I could never do that again. I couldn't go
through that again. Oh, you make this, or I made
this decision on my own with people telling me,
don't do that. Take another route, you know.
But I committed and I decided to redo the exams.
Then once you actually make that decision, the
number of people who came and said, oh, I also
did that. Where were you when I was trying to
make that decision? When I thought I was completely
on my own, could you not have been around to
maybe give me a thumbs up and say, yeah, you
know what, you're making the right decision.
Right. So I did that and I improved my exam results.
I did not want to go into university because
I was so exhausted by the exams. My grandmother
was having a panic attack because she... I mean
that figuratively, I should say. She... She didn't
have a formal education, so she wanted her grandchildren
to have a formal education. I'm also the firstborn
grandchild on both sides, so there is quite a
lot of pressure on me to do the right things
and make the right decisions. Sending strength
to all the eldest daughters out there. So I went
to university because she wanted me to do...
a degree um she has my degree because it was
not for me i handed it over to her and i said
enjoy um and then i when i graduated it was a
business degree with equine studies involved
because my family are involved in the equestrian
world and i thought let's study something that
i know and then i'm more likely to get by in
the exams but again the same lessons kept recurring
that happened in school um i got very high a's
in certain subjects and then passed other subjects
and when i graduated i decided to try and qualify
for the Rio Paralympics, which is a bit of a
leap because we haven't talked about that yet.
But it was the summer of 2015 and it just made
sense that I'm finishing university. I have this
opportunity to try and qualify for Rio. And if
it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, then I
can move on. It didn't happen and I couldn't
move on. decided to try again and qualify for
the games. And then at that stage, this gets
a little bit more complicated. So at that point
in 2016, at the end of 2016, when I realized
I hadn't qualified for Rio, I also realized that
I wasn't eligible for a lot of the graduate positions
because it had been over a year since I completed
university. That's actually a great call out.
If you've never heard of graduate programs, it's
your time to start looking into them. So they
are usually offered by large companies for recent
graduates. So as Kerry underlined here, your
graduation year needs to be under a year. You'll
have to look into that. But there are great opportunities
for three reasons. First, they're looking for
people who don't have a lot of experience. Second
thing is it's paid. And the third and most important
thing is it gives you opportunities to learn
about different roles within a company. So even
if you're completely lost as we speak, it gives
you the chance to build skills, discover jobs
you've never heard of sometime, and most importantly,
learn from people who are there. So asking questions,
getting to understand what their day -to -day
is and what they like about the job. So I went
into a work environment and I was there for a
year and a half. But it was a very slow progression.
It was somewhere that promotions came every decade.
Every decade? Very slow to get anywhere in the
company. And so I sat with this idea of, well,
how do I move? How do I move my life in a certain
way to... speed it up and i wasn't in the company
long enough to be able to prove to another company
to hire me um i just i knew all the roles that
i could apply for weren't going to get me anywhere
and i decided to then apply for a master's program
to reset the clock And make me a graduate again.
And that's what I chose to do. Before we deep
dive into your professional life, I just would
love to talk about repeating. Repeating years.
I'm quite biased. I'm definitely actually biased.
My take on repeating is that it should not be
taboo. If a teacher, someone from the school
system. is strongly advising you, your children,
to repeat. Seize the opportunity. See it as an
opportunity. Why? The first reason is that the
people I know who repeated have actually never
been happier in terms of finding exactly who
they are, being extremely driven as soon as they
got into higher education and now now they are
actually are doing the jobs of their dreams in
locations of their dreams and today the class
they repeated they don't even think about it
they don't even think that they lost a year they
just remember that now everything was meant to
be and everything found them and you know what
When you repeat, you get a chance to discover
the classes one more time. You know exactly what
you like. You know exactly what you dislike.
So it probably is getting you closer to your
future interests. So parents, your children will
be fine. And the thing is, so we look at adults
and we think they have their shit. together i
don't know what the policy is i'm cursing here
sorry it's more than okay and then as teenagers
even if an adult so i don't know if i'm gonna
be listened to but even if an adult tells their
story um we don't listen as teenagers because
you you can't relate to me i have no idea what
you're talking about so we don't even listen
to their lessons really um but yet we want to
form this path of a plus b equals c um so we
don't really listen to what's going on we are
very much we see and we want what we see on tv
or in cinema or whatever it is and i just had
those realizations you know i i made the decision
myself to repeat and felt very alone and felt
like I was actually I'm going to be so far behind
that was the biggest issue that was the biggest
reason not to do it because I was going to be
behind and I was losing and I'm even in this
situation right now where I feel the same way
again um but I decided to repeat and then people
came out of the woodwork and said oh yeah we
did too then I finished my degree and I ran into
somebody from school and i said oh how are you
doing hadn't seen them in four or five years
and they said oh i'm good um i'm starting another
university degree because i dropped out so then
you realize oh they are now quote unquote restarting
five years later so in theory they're five years
behind I'm doing okay. And again, I'm starting
to compare myself to other people. But then I
take a journey where I, you know, face a setback
and it starts again. So everyone is on their
own journey. And the timeline is very different
for everybody. Absolutely. But we're all trying
to get to a place ultimately where we're happy.
And where we're content. And the biggest risk
is deciding to take the decision. But actually,
the sooner we make that decision, the quicker
we can get to our happy. That's what I've learned
over the years. And this is a fantastic takeaway.
Think about it. You're getting closer to where
you need to be. So trust the process. If you
need to repeat, you'll get to better days. You're
only getting smarter. You're only getting more
confident. Yeah. And the best is yet to come.
Absolutely. And I think, again, on that, even
something as simple as when you do your final
exams, your A -levels, your leaving certificate,
your BAC, your SATs, you've maybe have never
experienced that environment before, especially
if you were, maybe we're a little bit too late
now because COVID was five years ago, but even
being put into an exam hall and having to sit
and do these exams, you could have performance
anxiety and completely quote unquote fail the
exams. That was the thing for me, not the performance
anxiety piece, but there were options. I didn't
need to repeat. I could do a course before going
into university. These were all these options
that were available to me. And I knew as soon
as I opened my results that morning that I was
going to repeat because I wasn't happy with those
results in that environment. And I needed. to
redo them or i would regret that for many many
years so that's why i took that decision but
there again there are lots of options that people
don't want to do what i did you'll do fine you'll
be fine everything is going to be okay and if
one day you're thinking about being late running
late because everyone is moving to the next stage
in the next stage running late for what Do you
know exactly what you want to do? And if you
know, that's incredible. It means that you have
a direction. And if you don't, then you have
time. You have time to think about the things
you want. And again, a kind reminder, because
seeing the people around me who repeated themselves,
things found them. Because everything that is
meant for you will find you. Exactly. And we
talked about this before. interview but um that
irish saying of oh yes yes yes we absolutely
need what's for you won't pass you that is basically
wraps up exactly what you just said there everyone
should leave by that saying right on the wall
absolutely this is your takeaway you need to
get that framed somewhere oh and tell us now
about your higher education why you made that
choice why not another one What guided you? Yeah,
so I originally wanted to do film and broadcasting
with French. Oh, this is incredible. And there
were reasons I wanted to do that. So I had done
my final exams and I repeated my final exams
and I didn't want to be in a very academic course.
I wanted to do something that I loved and I loved
film. I love film. And I also really enjoy conversational
French. I'm not very good at it. So I did a year
of that actually in university and then I dropped
out. So we didn't talk about this, but to add
on to everything, I did drop out of university.
I'm one of those statistics. Which is absolutely
fine. So again, my grandmother was having, was
very stressed about me choosing to leave. So
while I was trying to make up my decision about
what I would do next was the summer of 2012 with
the Olympics in London. So I had dropped out
in October, I think, and I was trying to decide
what I would do next. So I applied for a role
with London 2012. I got the role. I went and
lived in London for a couple of months and I
really wanted to just continue working at large
events and go to the next games and the next
games and the next games. But the pressure from
my grandmother, I came home and went into my
business degree for a couple of reasons in Maynooth
University. And it was... National University
of Ireland, Maynooth at the time. They've changed
over to Maynooth University now. And I chose
to do that because it was a business degree.
A lot of the degrees in Maynooth are arts degrees.
And before our final exams in school, it's the
most ridiculous thing ever. But our head teacher,
brought us all into a hall into a room and told
us that we applied for an arts degree we were
failing our parents oh wow which is horrific
i do not endorse that message whatsoever i i'm
yeah it was very very bad um so it just stuck
with me so when i saw that the particular degree
that i did was a business degree that was my
reason for choosing it and then also the fact
that i knew something a lot about um equine um
so that helped um and then through the course
of that um again i'm a practical learner so I
applied that in real world situations and that
helped me a lot throughout that degree, which
was great. Then when I went back for my master's
program, one of the big reasons I chose to...
Oh, sorry, just to circle back. The big reason
I dropped out of the film studies was... And
it wasn't practical. It was academic. It was
very theoretical and very book heavy. And I wasn't
that strong. I didn't consume a lot of books.
I'm better now. Again, I've realized that about
myself. Particular interests, I will eat them.
But at the time, the idea of just sitting down
and reading thick volumes of books just stressed
me out. So that's the reason I left, because
it was too academic for me. At the time, I was
very burnt out. And so when I was making my decision
about my master's program, it was working, it
was applying the theory in practice. So we worked
directly with major companies, multinational
projects, and were commissioned. to work with
those companies. So it was a far more practical
approach. And also there was a lot of guardrails.
So I had to be in at 9am. I wasn't allowed to
leave until 5pm. You had to study, like work
your ass off versus being in three days a week
and doing, you know, a few hours and then be
expected to go off and study on your own. I don't
have that discipline. I think no one would have
believed that a national champion and Paralympian
would share this kind of statements, right? But
we're all humans after all. We do need structure.
I shouldn't put this on tape, but if I have a
deadline, I'm great. But if you want me to go
off and just to study, I struggle with that a
little bit. So that was the best of both worlds.
I was able to... get a degree, a master's, work
with brands, apply the theory in the real world,
and then ultimately get into a better job than
the one I had been in when I left, when I made
the decision to leave. So it all worked out.
Thank you so much for sharing, Kerry. And I think
you shared something incredibly important. You
know, you said that you dropped out. of your
first choice because everything was too academic
and that you're more practical person if you're
listening and you don't know if you're more academic
or practical if you're still looking into it
and now you have to choose where you need to
go and you don't know anyone studying what you
want to study you have two options so the first
thing you can do is simply Email or call the
university, the head of the programs, teachers
in that program. What you can ask is, you can
ask about the structure of the classes. If it's
not clear enough on their website, you can try
to understand and ask them if it's going to be
more academic, more practical, so that the expectations
are clearer for you. Because then you will know
if you're going to succeed there if you're going
to enjoy the program itself. And the second option
you have is to go on LinkedIn and start looking
into the people who have studied within that
program and ask them what they did, how they
felt, what they loved, what they disliked, and
anything else you would love to know. And trust
me, most of them are going to be super happy
to answer your questions. And don't be scared
about getting ghosted. It's okay. If they don't
answer, go to the next person, go to the next
person. There are hundreds of them. Just to add
on is you could ask universities if you can sit
in on some classes too. So then you have an insight,
actually, what do those classes look like? And
then the other practical advice I would give,
not... in terms of what your extracurricular
activities are in university but if you know
the timetable if you only have one class on a
certain day the like the likelihood that you'll
go in for that one class if you are that is the
first thing in the morning or last thing in the
evening is very low so just again from a practical
point of view try to build out your classes so
that you can make the most out of the day oh
this is such a brilliant advice if you can go
on campus and try to get into one of those classes
just imagine it i think it will be incredible
because it would give you even more drive even
more purpose if you're currently struggling in
high school struggling within the classes and
seeing what the future holds can give you this
tiny push Everyone has probably been listening
because of how excited they are to learn about
your journey, your Paralympian National Athlete
journey. So I'll just give you the floor to tell
us everything about it, how it started, when
it started and everything else from there. So
I started maybe around the same time as I was
leaving primary school. My uncle knew somebody
who was in a wheelchair. who did archery and
asked me if I wanted to meet them. So I did.
And I, you know, I learned to do archery as a
six week course. And then I went to boarding
school. So I stopped doing archery. And I didn't
return until university, really. There were some
moments of maybe coming back, maybe not. not
realistically and I returned only because I went
to a clubs and societies day in university and
somebody I knew from that very first archery
encounter recognized me and asked me to sign
up to the club so that the more names that they
had signed up the more funding they got from
the university and that was the only reason that
they asked me to sign up and because they knew
me they could kind of track me so that was absolutely
fine when i dropped out of university i had didn't
really have any social outlet because i hadn't
built those social structures we talked about
the secondary school stuff i hadn't actually
built up a base of friend group at that point
and I had done a year in university where I was
not settling in very well so I didn't really
have a social um outlet so I decided to just
continue going to the archery club because it
was a way to stay connected with people and a
way to have accountability that I would have
to show up to to the club every week and while
this was happening um the coach of the national
team heard that I was actually training. And
archers in Ireland are a very small bunch of
people. We don't have a lot of them. So he approached
me with an opportunity to go to a competition
in the UK. And that was in 2012, actually, just
before the London Games. So it was just an invitation
for countries to be acclimatized before London,
but it was an open competition. So because everything
was paid for, I didn't really have an excuse.
And I said, yeah, I'll go. No problem. And when
I got there, it was the first time I'd seen that
number of people with disabilities before. I
grew up on a farm. I don't know a lot of people
with disabilities. which was a little bit jarring
to see so many people with disabilities, but
quite interesting. And a lot of time when you're
on your own at home, whatever you're doing in
your bubble, you think that you're not good enough
to aspire to international or, you know, to be
the top of whatever you're doing. So when I went
to this competition and I didn't, performed particularly
well but I realized oh I could actually get good
at this or at least be competitive at this and
so um that kind of lit something in me and I
went when I finished the competition then I went
to London to work for the Olympics and Paralympics
and I didn't have any ambitions at that stage
to do the Paralympics But we did joke in the
office about wouldn't it be funny that you're
working at the London Olympics and Paralympics
if you were in Rio? Wouldn't that be just a real
full circle moment? Interesting. I dismissed
it for sure. It wasn't really something that
I had considered. But like I said, I was invited
to go. Or asked to go to the European Championships
in 2014. And I wanted to try again at an international
competition. And it was terrible. My results
were so bad. Just really, really bad. There were
things outside of my control, I will say. There
was a lot of rule changes that I wasn't aware
of. And so I had to change everything at that
competition. So it was a disaster. And I was
really embarrassed. And again, similar to my
leaving certificate results, I didn't want that
to be my legacy or whatever you want to call
it. Yeah, of course. So because I was so embarrassed
by my results, I wanted to go to the world championships
the next year, which was when I was graduating
from university. And I didn't have any ambition
because... It was so bad at the Europeans that
I thought, just do a better score and be happy
with it. And while I was at that competition,
the qualifying position for Rio was eighth and
I finished ninth. No way. So suddenly I go, oh
my God, I could have qualified for the Rio Paralympics.
I was really, really close. So going from having
no ambition whatsoever to suddenly, hang on,
the timing is really good here because I graduated.
I don't have a job. I don't have demands on me
to go back to something. Let's focus on qualifying
for the Games. So then I went to the European
Championships and I needed to finish first and
I finished second. No. And then I went to the
final qualifier and I needed to finish top three
and I finished seventh. So all very, very close.
So close. And it was a little bit devastating
not getting there. And then realizing, well,
I don't have Rio. I don't have a job. I have
no plan. I don't know what's happening. And asking
myself the question, will I try again? Should
I try again? And I thought about it for the summer
because it was so close. But because it was so
close, it was so hard as well to pick myself
up again. But the question I always ask myself
is, is this going to be harder to try again versus
will I regret in 50 years time? if I didn't try
and the regret would have been bigger than trying
so then I decided okay we are going to qualify
for Tokyo we're going to make it happen um and
I became comfortable with that decision and then
I had to watch Rio on the television and relive
the devastation again of not being there and
then I went to a competition the following year
and my competitors were all sitting around the
table and they said Kerry do you remember in
Rio when x y and z happened and I said well no
I don't because I wasn't there and they go no
no you definitely remember remember we were doing
this and I go I'm gonna have to stop you again
because I wasn't there as much as you would like
to think I was I I definitely wasn't um which
you know is you just have to kind of laugh at
it at that stage and just put your head down
and then I yeah I decided to qualify for Tokyo
while also doing my master's so that I actually
again talking about being prepared or knowing
what's happening with university courses I actually
made the decision to do that master's thinking
it would only be three days a week and I'll be
able to train for the rest of the week. When
I actually got on the course and realized it
was a five day a week program, nine to six, then
I realized, ah, that's. that's not going to work
quite as easily as I would like it to. But then
I discovered psychology and it actually was a
good balance. So not being able to physically
train meant that I, my psychology work became
a lot stronger and resiliency kind of tools were
a lot easier to create by doing that. Where do
we get up to? I won't even go into COVID because
that's just not very stressful because it did
delay Tokyo by a year. So I could get, I could
go into a lot of detail, but we're not going
to do that. But I ultimately qualified for the
Tokyo Paralympics and I finished ninth at the
Tokyo Paralympics. I cannot wait to talk about
the psychology piece. I'll just take a step back
and talk about the clubs you were joined. You
who are listening, please do consider joining
a club, whatever it is. If you have an interest
in anything and you discover there is a club
about it, that there is a club created to gather
people who like it, just imagine joining those
people who have similar interests in you. You're
going to build your little community of like
-minded humans. It's actually a segue to my question
to you, Kerry. You mentioned the 2012 opportunity
to go to the UK. I know that some people tend
to be a little bit more... cautious about taking
risks how can we empower people to take a little
bit more risk to be more willing to seize those
opportunity when it's outside of their comfort
zone how can they make the most of things yes
i can give you the my answer and then i can give
you the psychology answer too so for me i do
it for the plush this is amazing absolutely unexpected
I say yes because what's the worst that could
happen? And also I'll get a really cool story
out of it potentially or a disaster and then
I can spin it into a cool story. So for me, I've
done the personality tests and all those kind
of things over in different environments. And
I am someone who feels the fear and does it anyway.
It's just, it's how I'm hardwired. But I have
a good psychology answer for this too, for people
who are having that debate. So I was in my last
role and I was interviewing for a company and
I didn't, they were a startup company and I was
very burnt out. And I knew if I went into a startup,
i would not have any time to breathe at all and
also their solution really wasn't something i
thought would succeed so people were saying well
you know it's not going to succeed but just take
the money just go and work until it it fails
so no i don't really want to um i don't want
i don't want to burn myself out even further
so i'd made up this in my mind and i went to
see my psychologist for just a casual conversation
it wasn't a session and i was telling her this
um and she said i think you should go for the
job i think i think you should go for the job
right explain that one to me please give me a
bit more detail because your brain is put is
doing fight or flight on you so it's creating
all of these disaster scenarios to make you think
it's a wrong opportunity and make you flee. So
rather than staying and picking that job, you
are choosing to run away from it because you're
creating all of these disaster scenarios. It's
like, okay, yeah, I can see that goes. You just
are afraid to say yes and lean into the opportunity.
So I went away from that conversation and I thought,
OK, actually, that's a good way of looking at
things. So look at every decision you make. And
when you're leaning one direction or the other,
yes or no, add an extra question to that, which
is. Are you planning for a disaster? Are you
creating problems that don't exist? Because,
again, it's another saying, but the devil you
know is better than the devil you don't. So it's
easier to stay in one bad situation rather than
going into a new opportunity that you don't know.
So it creates all of these. scenarios and makes
you think oh I can't do that because it's going
to be a disaster now ultimately I took that question
and applied it to that opportunity and I said
okay am I doing this here am I creating a scenario
that is not as bad as I think it is and I really
did make it a logical decision and said, actually,
no, there are enough clearly, logically wrong
things about this decision for me to say no.
But I'm going to take that piece of advice and
apply it to every opportunity going forward to
say, is this a real tsunami or a little flood?
Or a little bit of rain. And I think that's been
really helpful to apply to my decision making
over the last couple of years. Okay. Listen to
this again. Are you creating a scenario that
is not as bad as you think it is? And you know
what? This is such an important question to ask
yourself. You're first, obviously, empowering
yourself. The thing is, it prevents you from
going to different people and asking them what
they think. You know what? They will think first
potentially different things, but also some of
them will be highly, highly influenced by their
own ongoing lives. Some of them will tell you
what makes sense. because of what they've lived,
what they are living, or their fears. Your growth
has been incredibly inspiring, Kerry, and I have
a big question for you. As you were getting closer
and closer to the podiums, you gradually built
this confidence within you to tell yourself,
oh, I can get there. I can represent my country.
So my question to you here is, how do you work
on that? How do you tell yourself, yes, I can
represent my country? It's probably harder for
females than it is for men, I would say. You
need someone in your corner that tells you you
can a lot of the times. lack the confidence we
need someone else to tell us we can or hold us
accountable for for doing it as well um i think
a lot of times we have i've been doing a lot
of work in women in sports leadership over the
last couple of years and we tend to find the
best people to help us our male allies so you
have men who bring women along on the journey
and you know give them that confidence or not
even give them the confidence but give them the
space so they open doors to let you in um that's
very helpful and certainly i've had male coaches
so that's been they're the people who have told
me i can do it I think now we do need women to
also be those allies too. Not that they're not,
but again, even when women get into spaces, they're
worried about losing the space. So they keep
quiet and try to keep to themselves, not even
thinking about it. But that's one thing. I've
had external people who've said, you can do this,
you know? and have helped me to map out what
that looks like. But I think the real answer,
give you lots of big answers, but the real answer
is I failed at it. So I know how to do it because
I failed at it. I know, I knew the steps I needed
to take. Because I didn't take the right steps
the first time. And it does take, you don't have
to bounce back straight away, but you do have
to be resilient enough to try again. And yeah,
so it seems like I got to the games. I did get
to the games, but it's only because I failed
at getting to the games. So when it came again,
I knew who to speak to. I knew what the deadlines
were. I knew what I needed to do in order to
qualify. You talked about being more resilient
and trying things again. How does someone become
more resilient? Oh, that's a very big question.
Yeah, it's hard. You know, people look to sports
people a lot to talk about resiliency and not
every day is going to be a walk in the park.
I think I also, you know, I have a disability,
so I have a disability, which in itself is challenging.
And then you do a sport, which is also challenging.
So for me, you fail big the first time and then
you fail. kind of smaller and smaller the key
though is not to get okay no I'll tell I'll tell
the story first before I get into that but I
once had a talk um gave a talk very intimate
talk like we're having talking about resiliency
and the interviewer said to me you know the first
time that she had failed she was 27 or 28 And
really failed. And she couldn't get out of bed
for two weeks or however long it was. She just
was so devastated by a failure because she had
never built out those tools to begin with. Which
was extremely interesting to have this conversation
with someone who, you know, envied. resiliency
while I'm listening to her empathizing with her
and thinking you don't you you personally do
not want other people to build up those those
tools for resiliency because it means they went
through a really really hard time but in doing
that and making yourself uncomfortable and challenging
yourself the rewards are that much sweeter, colorful,
nicer. So again, failing or not living up to
your expectations, reframing that as, okay, when
I eventually, and you'll hear this from a lot
of sports people, but when I get that medal or
when, I finished that race or when I do that,
I'll know I've earned it. And you can build those
skills out in your daily life and just go, you
know, every step I'm taking on this journey to
get to where I want to go is important and might
be hard, but it will teach me those lessons along
the way. And so the crux of what I'm saying is
fail. Fail again. And not to carry shame about
that failure, because you're building up your
survival instincts. And the more you do that
in small ways, when... a big disaster happens
you'll be able to cope with it not that we want
any big disasters to happen we don't but who
knows what the future holds so seize opportunities
to fail seize opportunities to learn when you
told us about the competition when you started
that you almost got selected that you almost
got there that you touched it but also that they
were difficult moments how do you pick yourself
up i think again not to get too spiritual in
the universe but going back it probably is what
we talked about earlier so i have this saying
that I carry with me. It's not a famous saying.
I think I, I created it myself, but I see, I
do have some depression and I do deal with a
lot of hardships. And my way of describing it
to other people is that it's like standing on
the coastline in the middle of a storm and these
way, and you can't move, but these waves are,
kind of flowing over you and pounding you and
pounding you and pounding you. And if you wait
long enough, the storm breaks and everything
is calm again, if you just wait long enough.
So when I dropped out of university and I didn't
know what I was going to do, and it was really
a very scary time of my life. no idea how to
pick myself up and move on. And archery was just
something to sort of tide me over mentally. But
once I got the job in London at the Games, so
I went to the competition, I did okay, but I
could see myself. doing well in that environment
and then I went to London and I've been feeling
so worthless about myself because I repeated
my final year I dropped out of university I now
had to start again and I hadn't worked in hadn't
been in university or worked in nine months you
know all these things were happening and I really
was being battered by this storm. And then I
went to the London Games and it was the best
work experience of my life. The people I was
surrounded with were amazing. The event itself,
everyone working together to achieve something
and the adrenaline of that, and the validation
I got from doing a really good job in that environment.
put my confidence very, very high for maybe eight
or nine months afterwards. So even though I returned
into an environment that was the same as I'd
left, my attitude was different and the momentum
of the games carried me through. And that's happened
on multiple occasions. When I feel my lowest,
something comes along. The other thing that happens
when I repeated my final exams, when I failed
to qualify for games, when I came back to do
my final exams again, when I came back to try
and qualify for Tokyo. People from the most unlikely
places come to help you because they recognize
you are trying your best. They recognize how
much work you're putting in and you need help.
People like to help people who try. And if it
looks like you're trying, people inherently want
to help. And you won't know where that help is
going to come from. But the universe or people
step in and show up for you. And that's not very
practical to tell someone in their teens. But
don't ask me why. There's something spiritual
in the world. And when I have been at my breaking
point or when I've made the decision. Usually
it's not when I'm trying to make the decision.
I have to do that hard work myself. But when
I've made the decision, people come along and
go, oh yeah, we know you're trying. We want to
help you. People do want to help people who are
trying their best. And it goes back to what we
told you earlier. If you're interested in a bachelor's
degree, master's program, ask questions to people
who did those programs. They will be so happy
to answer your questions. And talking about programs
and master's degree, you had so many things at
the same time. How did you juggle everything?
I don't know. That's the only thing I can say.
I don't know. Yeah, so, you know, the first qualifier
was in 2019. I really did focus on the psychology
and visualization side of things. And whenever
I had the opportunity to train, I did. And then
I graduated. I went to the World Championships
and I came home, graduated. And then I had planned
to take that year following graduation and qualify
for Tokyo. COVID happened. Everything was delayed.
I had been accepted onto a graduate program.
So I had to start it. So I was working full time
from home and doing archery. But the problem,
actually, so that was fine because I find myself
spiraling again with the amount of work and stress.
But I went back to the lesson from my master's
program and said, no, I am being paid from this
hour to this hour. I'm entitled to a break here.
Thankfully for me, I have all of my equipment
at home. So I was able to just go out the door
and train. But I had to be really, really clear
with people what my boundaries were because I
was going to the games. When I came home from
Tokyo, that kind of got a bit, that got a bit
out of control because I allowed those boundaries
to be crossed because I wasn't doing archery
at the time. I took a break. So work just crept
into those spaces. And then when I started again
for Paris, I didn't know what I was doing for
about a month because how have I lost time? I
used to be able to do all of this and I'm not
able to. What's happening here? And I had to
remind myself, OK, you need to go back to your
boundaries again. Because you do have time, but
people are just stealing it from you. And not
that they're stealing it, you've given it to
them. So you need to suck it up and put that
back in place. And then, yeah, I burnt the candle
at both ends for seven years? No, longer. Oh,
wow. No, I think it was eight years maybe because
of the way that everything worked with COVID.
So yeah, it wasn't pretty, but I knew the sacrifice
and I didn't want to regret it again if I came
to the end of Tokyo and I hadn't qualified. Wow.
I'm quite speechless, honestly. Congratulations
for making it happen, Kerrie. And you mentioned
some tools, visualization. Can you tell us a
little bit more about how you've practiced it
and how can we adopt them? Yeah. So for me, I
box breathe. So you inhale for a certain count
and then you hold the breath and then you exhale
that breath. And I'll do that while my eyes are
closed. I'll just go through the process of breathing.
And then... I will visualize the entire shot
sequence. So I'll imagine I'm holding the bow.
I'll imagine the weight of the bow. I can imagine
it in my hands. And then I go through the process
of drawing back the arrow, letting it go. You
visualize the arrow and you visualize the arrow
hitting the very center of the target. Because
when you visualize You want to visualize all
the positives so that your mind automatically
makes your body execute those things. And yeah,
you do that over and over again. And then other
tools, which is not relevant, maybe, well, actually,
maybe it is for everyone listening, but turning
off my phone, my work phone. As soon as the workday
was over, it was put in a drawer and put away.
For people here who are in exams or in that stage
of their life, sleep hygiene is really important.
So not having your phone in the bedroom with
you, having an alarm clock, a traditional analog
alarm clock. and being able to switch off because
our minds just keep running and running and running
and running and you want your mind and your body
in the best position it can be. Okay, so give
it a try. Use those tools whenever you need them
because they're all backed with research. Even
the breathing exercise, right? Yeah, you can
find so much research doing it. It just shuts
out. the world and it also for me my brain is
like a hamster on a wheel um but by giving it
a structure and a process um it can focus on
that process and it has a roadmap to do that
rather than sitting in a room and just breathing
in and out and closing your eyes because the
mind will just wander off Sometimes that's very
healthy to do that and just let the brain do
what it wants to do. But in my case, I was doing
a specific breathing and visualization exercise.
Thank you, Kerrie. And we're almost concluding
this episode. And when you had to prepare for
Paris 2024, you had to get back to juggling all
of your responsibilities there. How did it go?
Yes, I did have to do that. That became a lot
harder to manage as the world returned to normal,
I would say. But again, I had a lot of external
help from people who knew what my challenges
were and worked with me. So they opened up facilities
the first thing in the morning while it was still
dark outside. or last thing in the evening to
help me achieve what I needed to achieve because
I laid out what my challenges were and we worked
together to find a solution. But again, that
was, I put my hand up, I need help and people
came to help. This is an amazing reminder because
you do need to ask for help. We told you quite
often. We at least told you twice, but keep it
in mind. And if you don't have people around
you that can help you directly, go look for information.
Help yourself until people can help you. Kerry,
can you share last pieces of advice you have?
Maybe two or three takeaways? Oh, good question.
I don't think that any decision is final. I think
you can make a decision, have the experience,
take the life lesson and make another decision.
I think the biggest takeaway though is to make
a decision. Indecision stops us and makes us
freeze. It's okay to try and to fail. That is
a lesson you'll learn and you can take it to
the next decision you make. So first is make
a decision, whether it's right or wrong, just
make the decision. Um, the second is again, really
you are the center of your universe and everyone
else is the center of their universes. So You
can prioritize, one, prioritize your own happiness
because it's your world. But secondly, you don't
have to be caught up on how you fit in anybody
else's world because it won't make any difference
to anyone else and it won't ultimately make you
happy. So that's a big deal. Nobody. really is
paying attention to what you're doing in the
nicest possible way. And thirdly, you can always
reinvent yourself. Thank you so much, so, so
much for everything you shared with us today.
I learned so much and I have so many notes on
the side. It was a brilliant episode. Thank you.
You're welcome. And thank you, thank you for
joining us today. I really hope you took as many
notes as I did. And I'll see you next week. And
in the meantime, don't forget to subscribe, to
follow, to share, to make this podcast grow.
See you next week.