Hi, and welcome back to a new How Did You Make
It, the podcast in which we explore each step
that has built the career path of various individuals
through the discovery of their habits, passions,
and interests over the last few decades. I'm
Yusra, your host, and today we welcome Ousmane.
In this episode, Ousmane walks you through his
path and life decisions in his home country,
Pakistan, how it led him to Singapore, and now
building a life in Ireland. During this episode,
there are countless takeaways and learning from
taking care of yourself, identifying a role model
who can inspire you and beyond. But also discover
how his family played a crucial role in empowering
him and leading by example and showing the behavior
to adopt and live by like curiosity and troubleshooting.
but also how to find a balance between putting
efforts and investing in yourself versus falling
into excess in what today we can associate with
burning out. So are you ready? Let's learn from
him. Hi, Usman, and welcome to the broadcast.
I'm very happy to host you today. So I'll just
give you the floor and let you introduce yourself.
Awesome. Thank you so much, Esra. I'm happy to
be here. Brief introduction about me. My name
is Usman. I am originally from Pakistan. I grew
up in the city of Karachi, where I went to school
and middle school and high school. I also went
to university in Pakistan as well in another
city called Lahore, after which I actually worked
in another city in Pakistan called Islamabad.
So I've been all over. And then after that, I've
also worked in Singapore and now in Dublin, Ireland,
where I work in Google as an analyst. So, yeah.
That's just a bit about me. And I'm sure we'll
speak a lot more about certain things. And I'm
excited to talk about them. Thank you so much,
Ousmane. I'm very much looking forward to sharing
your experiences. But before that, can you share
with us your definition of success? Yeah, great,
great question. A great first question as well,
I think, to kick it off. I think, for me, the
definition of success has varied over the years
as I've gotten... older and more advisor and
more experienced I suppose when I was a bit younger
in school high school etc it was to get into
a good university that's what success meant to
me when I was in university I think success just
meant getting through my my bachelor's degree
and getting through my courses and then towards
the end of it it was just getting a good job
but now that I've been working for almost 10
years I think the definition of success has changed
but ever so slightly as well. I think in the
early parts of my career was to work hard, hustle,
try to grow myself, grow my career as much as
possible. It was just focused heavily on that,
along with my wife as well, who I met in college.
But I think at this stage of my life and my career,
I'm at a point where success for me is a blend
of both personal and professional lives. I want
to be able to do the best work I can. and move
ahead in my career. But at the same time, success
for me also means being able to fund the lifestyle
or have the experiences that I want with myself
and my wife. And now I have a six -month -old
son as well. So it's really now a blend of moving
both these along and not really, I think. over
-indexing on just one, because I think then that
disrupts the balance. So right now, success for
me is being able to manage my career in a way
where I'm doing good work, learning new things,
creating an impact, building a name for myself,
while in my personal life, I'm trying to spend
time with my wife and kid and have the experiences
that we want to have together. So how did you
make it there? So let's talk about... your teenage
years and everything that you were doing, your
habits, your interests, what kind of students
you were, everything you can share with us today.
Yeah, thanks for the question again. I think
it's really important, like you said as well,
to jump into the foundational years, I would
say. And looking back now, everything seems so
different and so far behind as well. But I do
think there are certain things and principles
or just certain behaviors that I perhaps learned
during those early teenage days that stick with
me today as well. And so I think the main thing
that drove me was the fact that both my parents
were working parents. So my father, he worked
at a company for many years as a director, but
in the last maybe 10, 15 years of his career,
he had his own business. I think he had a factory
of some sort in different areas of industry in
Pakistan. And sometimes what would happen, unfortunately,
is things wouldn't work out, but he would never
quit. He would always pivot to another industry
or figure things out and try hard and work hard.
I've always, always seen him have that sort of
approach and mindset. And even now, actually,
funnily enough, I was in Pakistan visiting my
family just last month. My dad's almost 65 now,
but... He's still doing most of his, he's retired
now, but he's doing most of his work himself.
So if, for example, he needs to build a small
shed, a small bird cage, he'll get the wood from
the market. He'll get the tools. He'll make things
himself. So very, very hands -on, but very much
still hardworking and doing his own thing. My
mother was a doctor. Again, she's retired as
well now. But I remember her. So she used to
work when we were younger as well. She'd work
from 9 a .m. to 2 p .m. And that's because she
had to pick us up from school. So I have three
more siblings, so she had to pick all of us from
school. And so I remember just her sending us
to school in the morning and going to her work,
her clinic, and leaving that to pick us up. then
picking up basically four kids, taking us home,
then making us lunch and then homework and everything.
So I've always, always seen both my parents work
really, really hard. I think that's one of the
key, key development or foundational things that
I think stuck with me and is my core right now
as well. And what kind of students were you?
In terms of what kind of student I was, honestly,
I think there was two phases that I had. One
was where I was a very good student and I'd kind
of, you know, basically do my homework on time
and do the right things basically in class. But
I think towards the end of middle school, I met
a few friends who I'm still friends with today,
who I don't want to say were a bad influence,
but this opened up a whole new other side. of
myself that I wasn't aware of. And it's also
just one thing I do want to add here as well.
You meet all sorts of friends in middle school,
right? And some of them will open up certain
aspects of your personality, while others will
open up other aspects. So I think in middle school,
when I met those friends of mine, a whole new
world of experience came about. I started being
interested in the same sports they were interested
in. football and these different volleyball etc
um and even into video gaming as well so like
counter strike and these different games dota
etc so um just picked up a whole lot of different
interest and then my grades dropped a little
bit perhaps, but I was still a pretty smart kid,
studious kid. My parents were heavily, heavily
focused on making sure we were focused on our
studies as well. And I know this is a bit of
a long answer from what you asked, but my grandparents
were very, very well educated as well from both
sides. My maternal grandfather was a doctor,
one of the first in the city of Hyderabad in
Pakistan, which is a small city. My mom's siblings
are all doctors as well. Very much focused on
education. So this was a very, very core thing.
So I do think I hover between good grades and
medium grades. Never bad. But yeah, that was
it. I was very interested in math, in chemistry.
I think just physics. I was generally all around.
pretty interested in what i was studying it was
just um of course i mean when you're in school
you also want to have fun so there was that but
like um i didn't think any sub maybe social sciences
or geography was boring you know a bit but i
think generally speaking the rest were pretty
interesting like math and and that sort of stuff
physics was very interesting to me always but
um yeah so that was that was some of the stuff
i i i was involved in and do you remember why
you were more interested in math physics chemistry
I think you're asking some questions which I
never really thought of before, but great questions.
So I think perhaps one of the reasons I was always
interested in physics and this sort of stuff
as well. I mean, don't get me wrong. I was pretty
good at English. So just for some context as
well, I went to a private school in Pakistan.
And luckily enough for me, it was one of the
best institutions in Pakistan, one of the oldest
as well. It was set up by the British in the
1800s or something. But I was always good at
English comprehension, reading, literature. I
loved reading as well. I wish I had more time
to read now, but I just loved reading. But I
was always fascinated by physics and math and
chemistry as well, just because my father was
a mechanical engineer. And I think he did an
MBA as a master's as well. So he had a really
solid blend of knowing how things work. but also
having a business mindset as well. And so I remember
very early on, like in our house actually, if
the fridge was broken, if the TV was broken,
if the AC wasn't working, if my PlayStation wasn't
working, if, you know, anything of that sort,
my father would actually open it up and figure
out what was wrong and fix it. And so if I remember
correctly as well, even early on when I think
I was 14, 15. When he was at work, sometimes
I'd open up certain electronics myself using
a screwdriver. I wouldn't always put them back
together because I didn't know how to. I do remember
there was a time where I'd fix my own PlayStation,
basically. I knew what he would do. So I'd do
that. I think that's also something I picked
up. And now I kind of... Troubleshooting is what
you call it in the modern day world, right? So
I still have that sort of mindset. But I think
just generally... seeing him that way always
made me interested in how things work so like
a weird thing to share but if you look at my
youtube history now as well you might find really
strange things like like totally random i'm like
how does the root canal work what happens in
the root canal you know i'm not a dentist but
a root canal is a dental procedure that i was
like hey how does it work um even like how do
electrical batteries work so i have an electric
vehicle and so when I have a charger for it and
I was thinking okay how does this charger really
work so even though I have nothing to do within
my work or anything but it's just that I really
love seeing how things work and I guess physics
is a part of it but math also when it comes to
numbers I guess maybe that's why I was interested
in it also because I was good at it others encouraged
me as well and so it was just maybe perhaps the
natural thing when you're praised for something
you like you like to do it more often as well
uh but actually sorry one more thing i missed
uh and i would do an ad i think that was also
a time period where i became very interested
in music so my friends in in in middle school
um i mentioned they weren't all bad influenced
introduced me to some positive things as well
so football sports a lot of them um music was
a big part as well i bought my first guitar in
middle school as well um so yeah like just one
thing i wanted to add there though So would you
say that your family played a key role in helping
you developing this curious mindset? 100%. I
think I genuinely believe if they didn't instill
the sort of values and the attitude and the mentality,
just the hard work in me at that age, I am very
sure I wouldn't be where I am today. And just
to give an example as well, my sister is a dentist.
She's in Pakistan. She has three kids. She's
not practicing right now because she has three
kids and she's just busy with them. But it was
always something that all of us, all my siblings
had. My older brother, he worked at L 'Oreal,
which is a cosmetic company. It's a big company,
right? So good position. My younger brother worked
for one of the biggest e -commerce platforms
in Pakistan. And so it was always a case of trying
to push ourselves in a way where we'd... we we
were very we were all very ambitious but i think
one other thing as well they they did instill
as well was um not not going to excess basically
ambition is great but don't let it overcome your
life if that makes sense you know don't let it
be the sole purpose you exist for and so that's
something that was always very important as well
um i think there was a lot of family oriented
values in terms of like family's important friends
are important as well but like family is also
important work hard just i guess i don't want
to i don't want to use the word traditional old
school but that is how i think most traditional
old school families were so i think that that's
one of the key factors i think that led me to
where i am today were you realizing this when
you were a teenager do you think you learned
those values and those habits and this way of
thinking by seeing them acting as such as leaving
their values and showing you how it looked like
to be determined, for example? Yeah, 100%. I
think that was key for me to develop my habits.
But like you said as well, I don't think I appreciated
it or understood it when I was a teenager. I
think I only started to understand these values
when I went to university, which is another city,
Lahore, like I mentioned. And that university
as well, by the way, it's considered the best
institution or the best university in Pakistan
as well. And the program that I went to as well,
and I'm sure we can speak about it a bit more,
just for some context, the program was considered
the most toughest undergraduate program apart
from the engineering school, obviously, but in
the business and social sciences and all of that
world was considered the toughest. But I think
that's when I went to university was when I actually
realized. all of these values that I had developed,
I guess, or I had seen and learned from them.
But when I was a teenager and when I was in high
school or middle school, I think at that time
I wasn't able to appreciate it at all. At that
time, I just wanted to have fun. When you're
a teenager, you're also a bit rebellious as well,
so it's a bit different then. But I think looking
back when I went to university, I was able to
spend some time on my own and reflect on my previous
years. That's when I realized like, oh, wow,
like those are some really important things that
I learned from them. So, yeah. And looking back
at your teenagers, are there any practical steps
that the younger generation listening to us can
take from your own experience? Were there any
advice your parents were giving you? Any habits
they invite you to have, you and your siblings?
Is there anything you can share with us that
you remember from that time? Yeah, thank you
for that. I think it's really important like
you're doing. I mean, the whole idea of the podcast
as well when I spoke to you was how we can inspire
and help the younger generation as well. I think
that's really important to focus on that. But
I think when I was a bit earlier in my middle
school years, I think my parents and I just had
this habit that when we come home from school,
we have lunch and then we get to our homework,
you know, immediately. Because, I mean, It was
just something that they told me to do. But B,
looking back at it now, it was a great habit
because you get your homework and your revision
as quickly as possible out of the way, maybe
an hour, an hour and a half. And then you have
the rest of the evening fee to maybe go out and
play with your friends or watch cartoons or whatever.
So I think it's really important, the concept
of revision, right? And I think I would always
recommend to people that whatever concepts you
learn in... in school or whatever you don't even
learn like you think you know you're in school
you're not listening to half the things sometimes
I think even spending a good 15 -30 minutes at
home just going through certain pages of what
you did today can be a huge huge game changer
in terms of refreshing your memory one other
habit which I didn't have but I want people I
think I really want younger generations to have
and something I perhaps wanted my child as well
as, and this is something based on years of research
and I read it as an adult, actually, unfortunately,
but which is sleep is a big, big consolidator
of information. So sleep helps you, your brain
store information and consolidate. So if you
can think of it in a way, like whatever you've
learned in the day, it's all scattered in your
brain, but when you sleep, it gets saved effectively.
And so the idea is that. You need to be able
to sleep enough hours during the night. That
is required. I think at that age, maybe eight
hours is required. I'm not even sure anymore.
But one thing I always recommend, if you want
to, and this is just my personal advice, if you
want to learn things, if you want to progress,
if you want to grow, if you want to develop yourself
and your skill sets, it's so important for yourself
to get good sleep. I don't know if kids are going
to listen to it right now. whoever's listening
to this but if you can if you can just sleep
maybe 30 minutes more or 45 minutes more at night
that's a great start so I think that's one thing
that I didn't have I was a pretty bad sleeper
and I do regret it now you know I wish I could
change that so that's one thing I'd recommend
but other habits than that was just like I think
my parents were very strict they just make sure
we revise they did our homework we have after
-school classes as well sometimes there were
some tuitions so a big culture in Pakistan was
going to tuition centers which they basically
revised concepts and help you understand and
pick up things if you weren't able to in school
so just I think the focus was heavily on revision
revision but at the same time do go enjoy yourself
like because I think if you're heavily focused
on just revision then It might just suck the
joy of everything that you're doing. I think
being in high school, everything is about balance,
like it is right now as well. So yeah, I think
focus on the revision, but make sure you also
enjoy yourself. Otherwise, you won't end up happy
with either of those two things. Okay, so three
takeaways, three learnings from... Usman, you
are there. So first, you have to do your homework.
You have to focus on your classes. You have to
find ways to try to understand them. And it can
be through after -hour classes supported by tutors,
or it can be through watching YouTube videos,
content online, reading books at the library,
anything that you have available to you to help
you understand better what you learned during
the same day, during the same week. The second
thing is that to... Make sure you save those
information to better your sleep hours. Sleeping
will help you remember everything you just learned.
And the third element that Usman shared with
us is that you have to enjoy. You have to have
activities outside of all those things which
help you disconnect, which help you relax and
help you have a great time with your friends
or people outside of your school. And talking
about this, Usman, can you tell us a little bit
more about what you were doing? What do you think,
looking back, all those extracurricular activities
taught you? With my friends, we'd actually play
twice a week football at each other's house.
But also, I think with my neighborhood group
of friends, because we're in the same proximity
in terms of housing, we'd almost play every single
day. And if we didn't play football every single
day, we'd just get together and play board games
in the park. We'd just like... talk or we just
like play cricket or just run about play basketball
if there was a net someone bought a net we play
basketball um someone brings a volleyball we
play volleyball it was just a case of whoever
brings anything um sometimes we go to the houses
and play playstation so i think those early years
of um friendship with different groups really
helps you um with your mental and emotional development
but also like you learn how to foster and build
relationships as well and again I know I'm talking
about it like these are conscious things. At
that time, you don't realize it, right? But I
think whoever is doing it right now, I just advise
to them, my advice to them is just keep going.
10 years from now, you might think, oh, that
really helped me. So studies are very important,
obviously, to get ahead in life. having that
sort of grit personality that sport or friendship
teaches you because when you're friends with
someone you will have fights you will have arguments
um you will have discussions you will um you
will win some you'll lose some you'll work in
a team you'll work solo uh and those sort of
experiences can never come about in a school
setting or like education so i think those are
so important for you to develop as a person Finding
activities outside of your school walls is incredibly
important. Life doesn't stop at school or high
school. And you know what? Actually, some cities
are offering activities with teenagers where
they can practice different activities such as
artistic ones or sports. And it will expand your
view on your life and you'll get to discover
what you're capable of. To wrap up on your teenage
years. Do you have any advice, something you
wish you knew at the time? I'm glad you asked
that because I was going to add, I have one last
point to add. And I think it's so important to
have good role models when you're younger in
your teenage years. And so, for example, what
I mean by that is when I was basically in middle
school, high school, one of my biggest role models
were sports personalities, right? And what they
teach you oftentimes... And now, obviously, you
have access to social media where you can literally
see exactly what these sports personalities are
up to. And what you can do is be inspired by
them to work hard or just have discipline in
your life or just follow a certain direction.
And the reason I mentioned sports personalities
in particular is I think nowadays there's so
many other non -sports role models as well, which
is perfectly fine. But I do think that it's so
important to have role models that show you the
value of hard work and discipline. I think right
now you have a lot of influencers which are doing
great from a monetary perspective. They're making
money, right? On YouTube or TikTok, etc. They're
very famous. They're very popular as well. But
they might not inspire you in a way which...
allows you to push your limits. And that's something
you really want to work towards if you have a
role model as a teenager. I couldn't have said
it better. Through this podcast, I want to show
you how hard people have been working to make
it through the countless challenges they are
facing and that they are now sharing. But indeed,
athletes are the role models you can learn so
much from and it's so accessible. They are showing
you how early they wake up. They are showing
you how demanding their training they do every
day is. They are showing you their ups and downs.
They are showing you their failures, their successes,
what it takes and how they make it through. Ed?
Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say apologies
for forgetting you. Having role models which
can push you to your limits in a different way,
like physical. emotionally, mentally, you know,
who can kind of help you expand your horizons
is probably best for you. Once you figure that
out, you can go into whatever career you want.
You can be a sports person. And I do think also
like learn from their discipline, learn from
their energy, learn from their positive attitude,
their never give up sort of behavior. And I'm
not endorsing working from like 12 hours a day.
I'm not endorsing that either. I'm just saying
develop a personality where you are able to push
yourself in a way that's healthy enough. Does
that make sense? And sorry if I got you off there.
You're absolutely fine. So what do we mean by
everything we just shared? That if you don't
have a role model at home or outside, finding
athletes you can follow and learn from may change
your view on how much you can make it through
your own challenges in high school or later in
life. What athletes are doing is they are showing
you the mindset and behaviors that can help you
face those challenges to move further in your
learnings, in your ambitions, in your failures,
in everything that comes your way. They show
you that you need to be disciplined, you need
to be focused, you need to be practicing positive
self -talk and you will eventually need to wake
up early and you will eventually need to push
your limits and believe in yourself. And you
know what? If you need someone who looks like
you, who is from the same background, someone
who's from the same country, someone you can
identify to, look for Olympians. How to find
them? The Olympics page gathers the competing
athletes. So if, like Usman, you're from Pakistan,
go look for someone. We actually have a javelin
thrower who's a gold medalist or a silver medalist
in the Olympics. So literally, we have someone
from the Olympics. You know what's... I know
where you wanted to move on to the next question
but it's exactly like what you said after he
won and he became popular in terms of his media
presence and you know watching Olympics and Asian
Games etc there's so many Pakistanis now who
are trying like javelin even in the remotest
village there's videos they don't have the equipment
they're just doing it in a field but they're
just throwing you know, like a jabbing sort of
stick and they're trying it out. So I mean, that's
the importance of having such figures in your
own country or someone who looks like you as
well. So looking into your higher education,
Usman, can you tell us about your choice? Why
did you choose that university? How did you build
the confidence to move to a brand new town? Well,
that university was considered the best university
of Pakistan as well. And the program that I applied
to was accounting and finance. And I was always
good at accounting in school. So there was a
subject that we had accounting. And I think the
primary reason why I went for it, to be honest,
was just because it was the most difficult major
in the undergraduate sphere in that university
from like a non -engineering perspective. So
we had obviously computer engineering, electrical
engineering in the university. everything apart
from that this was supposed to be the toughest
major and i just wanted to put myself i don't
know why but i just wanted to put myself to one
of the toughest things i could do you know you
know what i'm i'm capable and i can do it so
i you know i'll do it and so i applied to that
major um i've never worked a day in accounting
and finance apart from internships but um Just
kind of wanted to go through, I guess, the process
of being in Switzerland. But I think the first
question you asked, what gave me the confidence?
I think one thing that maybe perhaps helped was
most of my friends were going abroad to the US,
UK for university as well. I would say maybe
90 % of them. And then I think from the remaining
10%, I would say seven, I mean, random numbers,
six, seven, 5%. We're also applying to the same
university that I was applying to as well in
the other city, Lahore. And the university's
name was Lahore University of Management Sciences,
which is called LUMS for short. And so I was
like, you know what? They're going as well. They're
applying as well. Why not? But I think what gave
me the confidence, and again, this is in hindsight
that I look back now, I've always wanted to explore
places and be in new places. Expanding my horizon
has been one of my... were my things which i
never really realized until today um but don't
get me wrong i was i was very scared when i first
moved um to that city of the university so i
was staying in the hostel you know they had student
accommodation in the university uh my dad came
to drop me to the other city he was there with
me for the first day and i was i was so scared
those two nights the night before i went and
the night when i was there alone for the first
time I mean, I'm saying alone, but like my friends
were there, but I meant like with no family because
before that I was always with family. But I think
every time I've moved, it's been tough. But I
think by now I know obviously that it's helped
me develop myself as a person and the experiences
that I've gained have been unparalleled. So I
honestly don't know how I built the confidence
and the courage. But I guess my friends moving
helped. But I was very, very scared. So I think
it's just something perhaps the younger listeners
who are listening to right now as well should
know that it's okay. You can be scared. It's
a very normal thing. I was from a very closed
-in family. My older sister and brother went
to university in the same city as we lived in.
So they never got a chance to do that. I did,
and I think I was very nervous and scared, but
it's okay. You learn from it and you grow from
it. So I hope I answered the question. You did,
you did. And I do want to highlight two things
that you said. First, you said that you wanted
to go towards the most difficult major. And the
second thing you said is that you were telling
yourself that you were capable. Those are strong
statements. You trusted yourself. How? How did
you build the confidence there? How can someone
proceed as you did and not put barriers to themselves,
limits to their decisions? Yeah, I think, honestly,
I would give the credit to my parents and my
family. I think they always had me or instilled
in me the belief that I could achieve whatever
I wanted to. if I put in the hard work and the
effort. And they always told me I was capable
of doing whatever I wanted, basically. And so
I think I would largely put it down to them.
They gave me the confidence that I can do it.
My father would always encourage me to do whatever
I wanted as well. Luckily... I think, unfortunately,
I know a lot of parents, even today, especially
from Asia, South Asia, I'm from Pakistan, South
Asia, a lot of parents put a lot of undue pressure
on children to go through a certain career path,
like doctors, engineers, whatever. And truth
be told, when I was younger, I myself wanted
to be an engineer like my dad. There's literally
a video of me when I was four years old. and
I've seen it and that's how I know it where someone's
asking what do I want to be when I grow up and
I say I want to be an engineer like my dad you
know so but eventually I didn't end up becoming
an engineer but just goes to show that there
was never any pressure so I think it's really
important to have a good support system a good
family system where your siblings and your parents
and everyone around you can support you to do
what you want and they can instill in you the
belief that you can achieve those things I think
the perfect example of that as well is and like
like i was always just telling myself i can do
it i can do it i think in the end of the second
year i i had i had some doubts not about myself
but like just tell me like is this something
i really want to pursue or whatever you know
and so i actually spoke to my father and to this
day i call my father when i want to make a major
life decision as well just to get his advice
um sometimes i won't agree what he's saying but
i'll still get his advice nonetheless but at
the end of my second sophomore year, I called
him and I was like, I'm thinking of changing
my major from accounting and finance. It's just
that it is tough, but I know I can manage it.
But it's just perhaps something I'm not too fond
of. Maybe I'm not sure. And so I honestly thought
he would have said, you've spent two years. Why
waste a year or whatever? Just go finish it off.
But he actually said, you know like if that's
what you want to do like change it like figure
it out you know you can you can ask the university
how to how to change it it's your decision you
have to live with it so whatever you want to
do um and that sort of autonomy which was very
rare my father wouldn't give that autonomy often
um it made me reflect a bit and I realized you
know what I'm just giving up at the first sign
of a bit of difficulty and I know I can do it
you know this isn't rocket science I just have
to apply myself and I'm not saying I was I got
like 4 .0 GPA which is basically the grading
system throughout college but I was a pretty
decent student I wasn't maybe at the higher end
of the row end but like because it was tough
to be honest but it just made me or gave me the
belief that you know what I am I am free to decide
what I want to do and I am able to make the decisions
I want to make and I can do it so That's just
something that stuck with me. Like even today,
I always think of this example where he could
have easily told me to kind of switch majors
and that would have been the end of it. But because
he's always the sort of person who wouldn't want
me to give up, like you don't think about it
and do what makes sense for you, which made me
go back and reflect. So I don't know if that's
answered the question that you're looking for,
but I think that's the kind of confidence and
belief that he always gave me. Yeah. And indirectly,
I think he was kind of coaching. And I know you
said we'll speak about my coaching element a
bit later as well. And I feel like you mentioned
having a loving family, right? Like a supportive
family, right? I think more than that, I still
look to him, which is a bit of a, I'm not saying
that he's been a coach my entire life, but in
a way he's been coaching me my entire life as
well, you know? And that's kind of helped me
develop the mindset and personality to help do
the same thing for others who don't perhaps have
that sort of support. But yeah, I'm sure we can
get into it a bit later. Yes, absolutely. We'll
be talking about your coaching on the side very,
very soon in details. And if you don't have that
ecosystem to help you think it through, asking
questions and everything else, just sit with
yourself. Try to ask yourself what makes sense.
Do you need to push through? Do you need to continue
towards that path? Or should you pursue a different
path which makes more sense for you? And going
back to your decision to move abroad, did you
have any doubts, any concerns, or were you absolutely
eager and looking forward to that move? I honestly
never doubted my decision to move. Perhaps the
first two nights, like I mentioned, when I was
scared, I doubted my move. I was maybe secretly
wishing I'd just stayed home. And also the interesting
thing as well is both my brothers and the university
that they went to in their home city, That's
considered the second best university in Pakistan
as well. So there's always a good option in terms
of even if I had to take the next sort of basically.
But I do think I never doubted that decision.
I think it was just something that I was driven
by the quality perhaps. But I think I was also
driven heavily by the experience and the learnings
that I might have, which I wouldn't have ever
had had I been like... going to the university
in my same city. And how are you great at the
time? Were you 100 % sure that you will get in?
Most private high schools in Pakistan have the
GCSE system, which is the British system, which
is the O and A levels system. I'm not sure which
countries have that right now, but I think Ireland
has a similar. Leaving third system, junior third
system, but it's the bitter system. But basically,
my grades, they're determined whether I got into
the university or not. And I did have really
good grades in my GCSEs, which is what it's called.
So I had like nine A's and one B out of 10 subjects,
which I have to be honest, I was very surprised
by myself. I think, honestly, so what happened,
again, just for some context, there's O levels,
ordinary levels, which is, and if anyone's read
Harry Potter, the book, they know that the system
that's mentioned in their books has been derived
from the British system because the author is
also British as well. So the ordinary level is
basically 9th, 10th, and 11th grade of schooling.
And your grades, they're kind of... are what's
used partially for college applications. And
the advanced level is usually two years. Sometimes
it's one year. And that's basically like 12 and
13. But some countries don't have 13 years of
high school education. They have images as well.
So most universities give you admission based
on your O -levels and your first year of advanced
levels, not the second year. And so my O -level
grades are fantastic. nine A's one B which is
basically A was the highest now they have A star
as well which is the new category but at that
time it was the highest and then my A levels
first year was I would say pretty decent pretty
good not the best but like two A's and two B's
so pretty decent and those are the grades that
I used to apply for university and with those
grades and the school that I went to high school
like I mentioned it's considered the best in
Pakistan There was very little doubt. I would
say anyone who had a decent level of grades from
my school got into the university because all
universities are also looking for bringing certain
profile of students as well from different schools.
But then there was a conditional offer that I
can't get any Ds in my overall. So basically
when I eventually gave my advanced level second
year exams, all I needed to do was avoid any
Ds. because they had given me a condition offer.
And so I think that year I spent, because it
was one of the last years before all my friends
went to college and university and myself as
well. I barely studied that year and I ended
up with a B and three Cs or three Bs and a C.
So I barely made the cut, but that's also an
advice I want to give to younger generation as
well. Please, please, please do make sure that
if we get a conditional offer from anywhere,
do not take it easy, do not be complacent. I
know someone, by the way, who actually did really
well in their advanced levels year one. And they
were just sitting in year two like me, but they
got one D. And the university I went to, they
don't even require that you, they only require
grades from three subjects, right? But they don't
allow any student with a D. And so this person
that I know of gave four subjects exams. And
the fourth one was a D. So they're like, it's
fine. But then the university said no. And so
actually their offer was rescinded and they had
to go to a different university for one year,
give those exams again. And then they came back
because it's considered one of the best universities.
So I'm just saying no. I'm not trying to scare
anyone listening to this podcast, but please,
please, please make sure that you don't. Just,
you know, ghost about or get complacent. Make
sure you get the minimum required for any conditional
offers. But just some advice I thought I'd share.
And again, this is the ambition of this podcast.
To remind you that the decision and the investments
you're making in yourself in high school are
so important. If you decide to give it all, once
you decide where you want to go and where do
you want to study, what do you want to study?
Your grades will open the doors for you. Yeah,
yeah, 100%. I think it's so important, like,
just to hammer it home, 100%. Like, my parents
always said, oh, this is the most important year
of your education. And I always thought, do you
say that every year? I'm sure it's not true.
But I genuinely believe it's true. It is. If
you don't get good enough grades in school. you
won't get into a good university, more often
than not. And if you don't get into a good university,
more often than not, you might not be able to
get the jobs that you want. Because it is a thing,
it is a sad reality of the world that good school
will get you into a good college, good university.
I sometimes use college and university interchangeably,
but I mean the same thing. But a good university
can sometimes help you land a good job. Unfortunately,
very, very sad. But if you mess up early on in
your school, then the whole chain kind of breaks
apart. So I do want to emphasize to people, your
parents might be telling you this and you might
think it's all false, but take it from someone
who's seen their friends fall off. So it's really
important. Usman, you said that you chose accounting.
By default, kind of, or you don't have a particular
attachment to that field. But what did it teach
you? Do you have any takeaways from that curriculum
that still is impacting your life today? Work
life, personal life? Yeah, yeah, no. So I don't
think I use anything to do with accounting and
finance now. I will admit knowing a bit of finance
helps me with basic concepts when it comes to
literally like giving my life. you know like
knowing a bit of finance is important from that
perspective when you live your life you live
in a house or apartment whatever i mean you live
on your own you have a family those concepts
are important there but like generally in terms
of education i don't think i use much of what
i learned but what i what it did teach me and
i think sometimes universities what did the purpose
of university i feel like is not just to instill
a new knowledge about a certain major in some
courses it's to build a personality and build
experiences to make you into a person ready for
the real practical world right so i think accounting
and finance the major taught me um that very
honestly without sugarcoating it taught me that
if you don't work hard enough or if you don't
pull your socks up and and and um you know just
just have the right sort of mindset and attitude
you will be left behind and you might fail and
so just an example um my course was my major
was the only one in undergraduate degrees That
if you don't, if you missed, not even missed
actually, if you were late more than 10 minutes
or missed a class, four times in the whole semester,
you'll get a straight F, like a fail. So there
was basically no, I mean, I know I said miss
earlier, but even if you were more than 10 minutes
late, that's considered like a missed class.
And so our major was modeled on the MBA format.
which is the master's degree right so um class
for participation where you have to speak up
in class had like 20 percent of our 15 percent
of our grade so it was just a very very rigorous
major where i had to work hard no matter what
like and there's so many nights i can't even
tell you and all it is my friend's room next
by next to me i could hear everything the whole
night they were chilling because they weren't
in the major in a different major where there
was no attendance and none of this class participation
stuff and i was in the room studying And so it
was tough. Like, I'll be honest, it wasn't easy.
Some people who thought like me, who had the
same issues as me, we became close, we supported
each other. You know, you find your support group
there. But just honestly, it just really gave
me a very strong sense of work ethic. And like,
another thing I'd link it to is one of my favorite
footballers who isn't very talented, but is very
famous. It's called Guy Neville. And he's a Manchester
United player, which is the club I support as
a football fan. He used to always say that his
mindset was always to attack the day. And so
his thing was, if you, for example, also, if
you cut a yard in your training, over the course
of the whole year, you've cut 365 yards in your
training, you know. And it adds up. And the same
thing, like Kobe Bryant, for example, used to
say, if you train one person extra, every single
day that other that's nothing but over the course
of the year better than everyone else and so
i think that's kind of what accounting and finance
sort of not taught me but it led me to that direction
and so i look to these sports personalities as
hey like you know what they told me they're the
they're doing this thing in their domain maybe
i if i just work a little bit harder um i might
be set apart so uh that's something that i wanted
to share as well Great point, Ousmane. And it's
the idea of showing up every day. Everyone is
struggling. Everyone struggled in the past. And
a lot of people will still struggle moving forward.
So again, it's about showing up every day. It's
about consistency and accepting the challenge
and everything that comes your way. And it's
all about using it as a learning opportunity.
Because yes, it's tough. It's very challenging.
It's nerve -breaking. Everything you can think
of. Yeah. But don't you think it's even more
challenging or tougher to not be able to choose
what you want to do after your studies? You will
discover it very soon, but Usman decided to not
stay in finance, accounting, and he moved towards
something else. Thanks to his behaviors, thanks
to his work, everything led him there because
he empowered himself. Great point as well. It's
allowing me to choose what I want to choose.
It's a good student, not accounting and finance,
but generally overall for any major, any university.
And that's something I wanted to touch upon as
well, is just having different extracurriculars
at university as well. Just as I was in the music
society in my university, so a lot of playing
music, organizing music events, just having the
camaraderie, just having an organization, like
a structure, there's a general secretary and
everything is working through the year. seeing
different people do different things we had like
a entrepreneurial society in our university like
i would always recommend people we did a bit
of voluntary work in a few schools in the city
as well i think just generally a good university
student is one who who does go through his education
regardless of the major has the right mindset
but also takes part in these different experiences
as well because it builds your personality as
a whole i know that's not the question you asked
but that is That is the answer I wanted to give.
It's completely fine. So what can you tell us
about your own experiences? What did you learn
at the time? What are the takeaways you have
looking back at them? And the other aspect of
the extracurriculars I mentioned, like I was
in the music society and I was a general member
and then I eventually rose to the ranks in my
final year to become the general secretary of
the society, which is like the president and
the vice president and then myself. And at that
time, we'd organize the largest music event of
Pakistan. Not just in university, but generally
as well, you know. And so I think just before
you get a, I mean, obviously in universities,
you do have internships and different things
as well, part -time jobs, et cetera. But like,
I think just doing this sort of work throughout
the year as well, kind of helps build some sort
of experience, perhaps that's the word I might
use. that kind of potentially can help you when
you're applying for jobs as well in the future,
I think. It helps you understand structure, hierarchy,
decision -making, how to go about doing certain
things, which will all help you in your work
life, whether it's a business or a job, whatever
it is. And I think also, at the end of the day,
it helps you have fun as well. Like, you know,
I played music on a stage in front of a thousand
people as well. I think when you're in university,
I would recommend that you immerse yourself in
it. And if you have a part -time job and you
feel like you cannot find the time to join a
society, sometimes you just need an hour a week.
I know it seems like it can take way too much
time, but think about it like this. If you give
one hour of your time each week to a different
position in different societies, you will discover
what you like and don't like doing. And it will
help you so much direct your next steps, your
studies and further programs you want to do or
join. Yeah, I think a lot of these things, like
you said, taught me what I liked and didn't like.
So it's really important. Can you tell us about
your internship, your other experiences that
you had during your studies? I did, I think,
an eight -week internship. in pwc which is an
accounting firm doing audit audit work basically
like for those who don't know what audit work
might be it's basically just assessing potential
frauds to put it simply like scams in a person's
you know in a business's finances and stuff you
know money but honestly just the attitude and
the kind of work that they were doing didn't
really appeal to me at all. It sounded really
interesting in theory when I was studying it.
But when I did it in person, I was like, hey,
this doesn't really look like it's fun. And so
I think it's really important to do internships,
like society experiences, extracurriculars, because
it will help you figure out what you like and
what you don't like. Because my second internship
the next year was in Coca -Cola, you know, the
beverage company. And in that company, I did
like a seven -week stint. where it was in different
departments like the sales sales operation hr
um and different sort of projects so that kind
of gave me a different experience and made me
think okay this is what it is what it looks like
so i think it's really important to to use that
university time period like you have four years
of undergraduate or three years or five years
whatever to help you figure out A few things
before you make it to the practical world, you
know. So make sure you kind of maximize that
time period doing things that might help you.
So wrapping up on your student life, what can
you share with us on what choice did you make?
What after uni, what job did you decide to do
and why? So interestingly, because I was in a
business major, accounting and finance, everyone
was just running after the first. corporate job
I was very disillusioned and I joined actually
NGO or not -for -profit organization with the
government and it was a public health firm which
basically does honestly just to summarize what
it does is it it runs programs or like just helps
people figure out health solutions for free The
underprivileged people. And it does research
in terms of what medicines work, what doesn't
work, what methods work for treatment, what doesn't
work. So basically like public health research
firm. And I joined as a project manager. So I
was responsible for tuberculosis. Believe it
or not, I was responsible for a project for tuberculosis,
which is a disease which not many countries have
in the world. But Pakistan does. It's a very
deadly disease. And I had never, I never, like
my mother was a doctor. But I had never explored
this in my life, you know. But what it did allow
me actually to do and learn, A, was empathy because
we wouldn't interact with patients who were suffering
from or could potentially be a deadly disease,
right? So it was scary a bit as well, but it
was also very, it made me more empathetic in
terms of being more privileged, etc. But also
it was a very good exposure to... Project management,
which is the word that I was doing. So figuring
out how to set up a plan for a project, how to
define milestones, how to just set timelines,
work with limited resources and that sort of
stuff. So good experience. I think a very meaningful
job where like a very fulfilling job as well
in terms of social value. But yeah, that was
my first job. I was very disillusioned. It also
didn't pay that much money. And so eventually
I had to move on because I wanted to make some
money as well. But it's a sad truth. Sometimes
the jobs which provide social value have provided
less money than other jobs. But yeah. Yes, unfortunately
in most of the NGOs. The pay is not that great,
meaning that you could face a lot of challenges.
But it takes me back to what I've mentioned in
previous episodes, is that you can have your
full -time job in another structure, or you can
be an entrepreneur and volunteer. Volunteer your
time as much as you can for any kind of missions
that align with your purpose, what drives you,
those conversations. our reminder that you don't
have to you don't have to put yourself in a challenging
financial environment because you need purpose
the purpose can be found beyond the doors of
your work yeah and i do want to add though i
think this is i'm a bit older now obviously and
this is all the way back in 2015 i do think that
nowadays there are more and more ways where you
can create social impact, like you're saying.
And now I think a lot of these, whatever, NGOs,
companies, whatever it was, I think they also
improved their pay structure as well. So I think
in today's world, it's easier to work for these
sort of cases and build that great social value
and impact, but also not lose out, for example,
on a good paycheck as well. Which is a good,
which is an important thing people consider when
they want to look for a job as well. And just
an example, there's like, there's a few consultancies
that I know like globally, which kind of help
focus on developmental projects, right? I know,
I know so many friends that work with the United
Nations Development Agency as well. A lot of
companies who work with like, I know so many
of my friends worked in consultancies and companies
which help build more schools and hospitals in
Pakistan. And so there's way more ways now. And
I would always encourage people, I think if you
can, if you can volunteer, obviously that's one
thing. If you can work there for a short while.
But I would always recommend someone in their
career that should spend some time working for
these sort of cases. Just because it's important
to give back as well. Agreed. And if you look
at it, like, let's pretend that you're an accountant.
You can give them time and you can share your
skills with them. Sometimes these companies or
these organizations, they need support in different
ways. So you're 100 % right. You can volunteer
as well. But even if it's an hour a week or hour
every two weeks, you know, it's important time
to them. So what did you do after that experience?
Yeah, so after that experience, I joined this
company called Telenor Pakistan. And Telenor
is a telecommunications company. That's actually
a Norwegian company. So it's basically Telecom
Norway, which is Telenor. But it's a government
telecom company in Norway. But in South Asia,
so Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, and a couple
of other places. They had a huge presence at
that time. Not so much anymore, but at that time.
The only drawback was, not a drawback, but one
of the things was that their head office was
in a different city to one where I was. So after,
just for some context as well, after university,
which was in Lahore, I went back and I worked
in Karachi, which is my hometown. And I was at
home with my family, right? But this company
that I'm talking about, their head office was
in another city called Islamabad. which is two
hours by flight and by train, like 15 hours or
whatever. And so the reason I switched there,
to be honest, was, again, always wanted to push
myself, right? And always wanted to kind of have
the belief in myself. This was considered the
best employer in Pakistan for three or four years
running. And so I was like, you know what? If
this is considered one of the best employers
in Pakistan, and if I want to join the corporate
world, This is where I want to start off with,
you know. And so I applied. I had interviews
for one role. Didn't work out. But then I had
interviews for another role. It worked out. And
so I actually ended up moving cities again. And
I moved to Islamabad. And I'll tell you honestly
again, when I moved, the first two, three nights
were so tough. Because at least for university,
my father came and dropped me. But for this one,
I went alone. And Islamabad, the city that I'm
talking about, is considered very much a dead
city in terms of its night sort of life. So like
9, 10 p .m., the whole city is sleeping. Whereas
the city that I'm from, Karachi, 9, 10 p .m.
is when the city comes alive. The city is dead
at like 2 a .m. in Karachi. So very different
change for me as well. Almost wanted to just
quit and take a flight back. I think one thing
I always tell everyone, the first two or three
nights are the toughest. If you can just get
through those, you'll be fine. But I joined there
as a digital marketing officer. But the truth
be told, just to summarize what I was doing,
I was responsible for the company's website and
app, mobile app. And so everything to do with
the website and the app, which is basically any
analytics, how we can grow the app, get more
users, get more views, get more people to use
the app. I'm sure everyone who's hearing this
has a mobile phone package with their provider,
whether it's Vodafone, Virgin Media, whatever.
And so our goal was to bring more people into
the e -commerce channel versus the traditional
ways of subscribing. And just like the marketing
as well, how can we improve our online marketing?
And so everything was part of the work that I
was doing with a few other people. which was
my first exposure to tech. But yeah, that's the
reason I wanted to move. It was considered the
best employer. Like, you know what? I need to
do it. You said something very interesting. So
you said that first you apply, it didn't work.
You applied a second time and it worked. What
was your first reaction to that first rejection?
So even till today, whenever I get any rejection,
the first hour or the first 30 minutes, I'm really
sad and upset. But then after that, I learned
to move on really quickly. I think I've just
built a lot of resilience in my personality.
And I think it goes back to just some context.
I had an older brother. I have an older brother,
right? He would always tease me when we were
younger. When we were in our teenage years or
just school, he'd always tease me. And I think
I just learned to build up that resilience over
the years. Also, like... rejection is from interviews
etc is something that when you then it happens
a few times you realize it's just part and parcel
of the process so the first hour or so pretty
sad uh like you know thought i i had i had cleared
it but didn't work uh but the second one worked
so kind of i i've always had this mindset you
know what this is just another learning experience
if it didn't work out I learned something new.
I at least learned what kind of questions they
can ask, right? I learned that I can maybe improve
some of my answers. So I always now take it as
a learning curve. Rejection is a part of it.
And I'm going to speak more about it, I think,
with some of the other jobs as well. Because
I do believe that those who try will have more
rejections than acceptances. But those who don't
try... We'll never know what they can achieve,
right? So I think it's just that rejection is
a part of the whole trying thing and succeeding
thing. So two takeaways from what Usman just
shared with us. First, you have to move on and
you have to move on fast. It was not meant for
you. You cannot just stay and blame the situation.
You're just wasting your time. And the second
thing is that this is a learning experience.
Maybe you did not structure your question well.
Maybe... Something was missing for the person
to understand how a great fit you are. But it's
fine. But it's fine. You're learning. Take notes
from the question you were asked from your answers
and think about how you can improve them before
your next interview for your next job. Yeah,
100%. And if I can point the listeners to something
that really, really resonates with me. Roger
Federer, who is a legendary tennis player, right?
He gave a commencement speech a few years ago.
I'd recommend people go watch it. He speaks about
very similar concepts of how he lost, I think,
40 % of the points in his career, but he won
60 -70 % of the matches, right? And the whole
idea is that you'll have to learn to move on
quickly from losses or... points loss or rejections
because the next thing matters then you know
so i recommend folks listen to that it's really
really inspiring again goes back to the importance
of having these sort of sports personalities
that's been a big part of my my life i do think
that these sort of personalities can have a very
positive impact thank you for sharing i'm sure
there are countless learning from that speech
and it's the perfect example It has to move to
the next set and the next set and the next set.
And if you lose continuously or if you have to
step up your game, you don't have time. You don't
have time to waste, to blame the situation, to
pity yourself for all of this. You have to process
it, obviously. But you have to go back for more.
There's no time to dwell on any point lost. And
you're telling me that, but we know how difficult
it is to just move on. trying to process after
you put so much work on the preparation on getting
to understand the expectation of the interview
getting to understand what the goal of the company
was etc etc i know we both know how much work
you put into this but we also know that as soon
as you process it you have to go to the next
one because if you didn't get that job it doesn't
reflect on any of your capacities it reflects
on probably your preparation or just that that
the interviewer was not looking for someone with
that set of skills at that time but maybe later
on Guzman can you tell us about your next experience
you joined Kareem right yep that's correct and
so Kareem actually same reason I moved to Kareem
as well Kareem Again, for those who don't know,
it's a ride -hailing company from the Middle
East, which was recently acquired by Uber a couple
of years ago. And it's the first unicorn startup,
which means it's the first billion -dollar startup
in the Middle East, which is a big thing, right?
But Kareem was massive in Pakistan. It was the
first big, actually, just probably the first
e -commerce platform, apart from maybe food delivery
services. to really change or disrupt the Pakistani
market, right? And so, interestingly enough,
even though Karim was more present or longer,
had been present longer in some Arab countries
and the Middle East, North Africa before, the
highest number of rides were in Pakistan, right?
And so, it had taken Pakistan by storm, literally.
And it opened up so much. for so much possibilities
for women who found it unsafe to travel and that
sort of stuff. But like, I wanted to test myself
in a completely new environment, a startup environment.
And I wanted to be a part of the Kareem journey,
which is basically like revolutionizing Pakistan's
transport side. So that was literally my primary
motivation. You know what, Kareem is... getting
bigger and bigger. It's impacting Pakistanis
more and more. I need to be a part of this journey
and push myself. That's how I joined Kareem.
I joined Kareem as a sort of a growth hacker,
digital marketing expert, demand growth person.
So just to summarize what work that was, my job
was to increase the revenue, to increase the
number of rides. and make sure our marketing
is done in a way that attracts more customers
for the app, obviously, and for the ride. So
just generally seeing the whole process in the
app and marketing and how we can kind of find
the right balance between the available riders
and the available drivers, for example. So a
lot of that stuff. It was a startup. I was only
there three months, but it felt like a year.
Because I probably worked like 12 hours every
day. And they almost worked seven days a week.
Luckily for me, I was very strict on working
seven days a week. I said, you know what? There's
no way I'm working on the seventh day. And that
was a bit of an issue. But I held my boundaries.
But yeah, that was Kareem. That was Kareem for
me. Oh, that sounds quite intense. So you decided
to move companies, right? Yeah, so actually I
wasn't planning on it as such, but then I actually
got a call from Meta slash Facebook. It was known
as Facebook at the time. And that was for a role
in Singapore. And I was in Karachi at this point.
So I had actually come back from Islamabad to
Karachi again. I had moved cities. After Tel
Nor, I came to Karim. So Karim was in Karachi.
Yet another city I moved in a year's time as
well, a year and a half. And I was only literally
in Karachi for four months. And now I'd said
to myself, I'm not going to move again. I had
moved way too much from Karachi to Lahore for
university and every summer packing up everything
and coming back because our student accommodation
would change every year. So every year, every
summer I had to pack up everything, come back
to Karachi and take everything back for the new
semester. Then I came after university, I came
back to Karachi for my first job. Then I went
to Islamabad for my tenor job. Then I came to
Karachi for this job. And so when I come back
to Kerala, you know, that's it. I'm done. I'm
going to move. But then Facebook obviously called
from Singapore. And at that time, I had no confidence.
This was the first time in my life where I didn't
have much confidence that I think I will succeed,
by the way. Because it was very unheard of at
that time for a Pakistani. to be hired directly
from Pakistan with no foreign education. I had
no foreign education. It was just Pakistan. Or
no foreign experience. I'd only ever worked in
Pakistan. And so it was very, very, very unheard
of for a Pakistani to get the job like that.
And so even though I had local confidence, I
remember a conversation my dad and I had at the
dinner table where we were like, let's just go
ahead with the process. You know, it'll never
work out, but I learned something new. But it
did work out, obviously. And so I did move to
Facebook and I moved to Singapore in 2017. And
I also, so actually, the first night then was
also difficult, even though I had to move to
a new, and it was the most nervous I had also
been because it was a new country altogether.
But Singapore is amazing. Facebook as a company
was amazing. The kind of support they provided
me was amazing. So it made it much easier. If
you want to know more about the role, I was there
for four and a half years. I was in Singapore
for three years. And then I moved to Dublin,
Ireland, which is another country change for
me. But I was still with Facebook in Dublin as
well. But yeah, it's so much work, different
type of thing. Like I did vendor management.
I did like data analyst work. I did like program
management work. I did a lot of mentorship, strategy
work. process optimization, process creation,
a lot of learning. I don't think I've ever learned
more than that in that time period as well. After
changing role and scope within that company,
you moved to another tech company. Yeah, so right
now I'm actually at Google. And so I mentioned
from, I switched countries from Singapore to
Dublin. Actually, I switched during COVID. So
I moved to Dublin in 2020 with Facebook. And
interestingly enough, at that time, by the way,
I had changed roles as well. So I joined a new
role in Dublin. And so I remember speaking to
someone at that time who said there are three
things you should never do together. You should
never change safety of your country together.
You should never change your role. And you should
never change... I can't remember the third one
actually, but it's a skip. having trouble remembering
that but like the idea was keep constant or some
some things constant so uh not everything gets
you in the same time and so i remember i i changed
countries and i changed jobs and like in the
same company um into covering your team and it
was so challenging moving to dublin with meta
as a but obviously we got through it but um i
was in dublin with meta or facebook for one and
a half years and then i joined google in 2022
And so I'm actually at Google right now. And
my role right now is like a program manager in
the regulation space. So there's this regulation
called the DSA, which is the Digital Services
Act in the European Union. And there's obviously
different regulations in the world, like there's
UK Online Safety Act, Australian regulations.
So my team basically helps Google. My team helps.
other teams prepare for these regulations to
make sure they're following all the rules and
regulations, that they have the right processes
in place or the right ways to showcase compliance.
Because if you don't follow the regulations,
it's obviously a very, very major compliance
issue. There'll be defiance, there'll be legal
cases, et cetera. So I work in this team right
now. So that's the kind of work that I'm doing.
Usman, can you tell us why you chose those roles?
What were your drivers to move from one company
to another, from one area to another? I think
you have 10 years of figuring out what kind of
work you like and the things you want to do.
And so I feel like I've spent these last 10 years,
almost 10 years, figuring out what things I like
to do and what I'm good at, what I enjoy doing,
but also at the same time pushing myself. in
ways that i know is possible perhaps in these
first 10 12 13 years of my career because beyond
that you start building a specialized route more
often than not right and so i think for me um
the big driver has been just pushing myself learning
growing um trying different things as well um
and just from digital marketing to like you know
like that from from to this it was always a case
of Can I do more or can I do something different?
And what do I enjoy doing? So even though right
now, perhaps I do still love my digital marketing
experience and I really enjoyed that. Now I know
maybe I want to build my career in something
that's a bit different, you know. So sometimes
it's a case of building your career and your
skill set in something that you love to do. Sometimes
it's something you built in something you like
to do. In life, unfortunately, you don't always
get to do what you love to do. But you also have
the option sometimes, like you said, to choose
from, because you've built that foundation, to
choose between different things you might like
doing. And now can you tell us a little bit more
about your passion projects that you're doing
on the side? So you're developing some mentoring
and coaching. Can you tell us more about it?
Thank you. So like I said, like right now, actually,
I'm, apart from my work at Google, I'm trying
to explore a new path for myself on the sides,
which is in my core work, which is mentoring
and career coaching and mentoring. And so I think
it primarily is driven from the fact that I had
one or two coaches and mentors throughout my
life. I think the first one being my parents,
like first two being my parents, particularly
my dad from like a career perspective, but generally
from a coaching perspective, both my parents
as well. Like I mentioned before, even now I
give him a call to ask him certain things, right?
Just get his advice on certain things. And just
even university as well, that was the first person
I called when I wanted to maybe switch majors
and he gave me advice there as well. Being in
university as well and in my jobs as well, I
realized that there's a lack of options for the
younger generation to be able to stick to Sakhaman,
who is perhaps relatable, who has gone through
the journey or gone through the hard work. And
when you don't have anyone to take advice from
or mentorship or coaching from, sometimes, not
always, you can end up making decisions that
aren't very beneficial for you. Like I said,
not always, sometimes. But if you have that person
in your career or your early university days
as well, they can guide you in a more meaningful
way and maybe make your choices better for the
future. And so I don't think I had that much
of that sort of coach apart from my parents and
then one manager that I had who's been really
fantastic. One or two managers. But I realized
it's so much more important for people to get
like a consistent guidance in these sort of elements.
So that's the kind of gap that I wanted to focus
on, particularly in Pakistan. But I know for
a fact that in a lot of countries which are coming
up in the world, this is a key gap. And so just
for some context as well, I work with two or
three people directly in one -on -one capacity,
helping them with maybe the career search, career
journey. helping them kind of land the jobs they
want. Right now, I'm working with a group of
seven, sorry, young professionals as well in
a group coaching format where I'm trying to guide
them and work with them. I've also collaborated
with two, like actually collaborated with my
university loves, which we have given two sessions
there as well to 100 plus audiences. I'm now
trying to expand that. I'm actually... in touch
with five more universities in Pakistan. I've
also recently, and that's why, by the way, I
don't know, people might be listening to this
podcast for the first time and thinking, this
is the first time I've spoken, but we've been
speaking for a while now about the ideas that
Yotra has had and just generally. And one of
the things I'm exploring now as well is speaking
at schools as well, high schools. Because I feel
like, like you said before as well, a lot of
the foundation starts very early. I'm not saying
you look for a job that early, but what happens
is sometimes you build that foundation and there's
certain ideas that you have about your career
or certain myths that you might have that a certain
inspiration that you might need that might be
possible at the school level as well, high school
level. So right now, I'm actually trying to collaborate
with high schools in Pakistan, trying to go speak
with the students there, have some virtual sessions
and maybe in -person sessions. Yeah, that's the
focus that I've been having, kind of help or
guide more people and more students, more early
young professionals as well, just in a way where
if they have certain ambitions or even if they're
so early in their journey in school where they
don't have any ambition because they're just
so young, I'm trying to instill that sort of
ambition in them as well. But I don't know if
anyone's interested, but if your school or university...
or you might be interested, feel free to go to
my LinkedIn and go to, you know, send me a request,
view my services there. I'd love to expand and
speak with schools all over the world if I can,
you know, wherever there's a need. But yeah,
that's what I've been doing. I will share Usman's
contacts within the description of this podcast
and within social media so that you can find
and reach out to him. mentors and coaches can
change your path, making you understand your
capabilities, making you understand what's out
there, the opportunities out there, and how it
could be an opportunity for you. So if you're
just slightly curious, please don't hesitate
to reach out to Usman. Thank you. You shared
countless advice, but do you have any last advice
for our listeners? No, yeah, no, great conversation
as well. Thank you so much. I think, like you
mentioned, I've been throwing out advice in the
whole session, the whole podcast, but I think
one last advice that I want to give to the listeners
is to trust yourself, have the belief in yourself.
If, unfortunately, no one else has the confidence
in you, you should trust yourself. I genuinely
believe every one of us has that sort of capacity
or that sort of talent or attitude. And I'm not
saying everyone has to have the same exact sort
of route in their career or mindset, but whatever
it is that you're interested in. I have a friend
who's a chef, right? And they found their calling,
but I'm just saying that you need to be able
to have that self -belief. But self -belief also
does not mean that you build an ego. Self -belief
is more of a case where you try and push yourself
as much as you can in certain areas that you're
interested in and learning new things. But at
the same time, you are able to reflect on your
strengths and weaknesses and know what's good
for you and what's bad for you. And so I think
anyone listening right now, you are good enough.
You have the capabilities. You have the... You
can have the drive within you. Just learn to
understand what's good for you, bad for you,
what your strengths and weaknesses are. And if
no one's believing in you, believe in yourself.
So that's my last advice to people. You are able
to make things happen for yourself. Thank you
so much, Usman. Thank you for all the advice
you shared with us today. Awesome. Thank you
so much. And thank you for joining us today.
And don't forget to share your feedback wherever
you can and follow us wherever you can as well.
See you next week.