WEBVTT

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Hi, and welcome back to a new How Did You Make

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It, the podcast in which we explore each step

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that has built the career path of various individuals

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through the discovery of their habits, passions,

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and interests over the last few decades. I'm

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Yusra, your host, and today we welcome Ousmane.

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In this episode, Ousmane walks you through his

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path and life decisions in his home country,

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Pakistan, how it led him to Singapore, and now

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building a life in Ireland. During this episode,

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there are countless takeaways and learning from

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taking care of yourself, identifying a role model

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who can inspire you and beyond. But also discover

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how his family played a crucial role in empowering

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him and leading by example and showing the behavior

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to adopt and live by like curiosity and troubleshooting.

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but also how to find a balance between putting

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efforts and investing in yourself versus falling

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into excess in what today we can associate with

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burning out. So are you ready? Let's learn from

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him. Hi, Usman, and welcome to the broadcast.

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I'm very happy to host you today. So I'll just

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give you the floor and let you introduce yourself.

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Awesome. Thank you so much, Esra. I'm happy to

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be here. Brief introduction about me. My name

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is Usman. I am originally from Pakistan. I grew

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up in the city of Karachi, where I went to school

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and middle school and high school. I also went

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to university in Pakistan as well in another

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city called Lahore, after which I actually worked

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in another city in Pakistan called Islamabad.

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So I've been all over. And then after that, I've

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also worked in Singapore and now in Dublin, Ireland,

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where I work in Google as an analyst. So, yeah.

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That's just a bit about me. And I'm sure we'll

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speak a lot more about certain things. And I'm

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excited to talk about them. Thank you so much,

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Ousmane. I'm very much looking forward to sharing

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your experiences. But before that, can you share

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with us your definition of success? Yeah, great,

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great question. A great first question as well,

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I think, to kick it off. I think, for me, the

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definition of success has varied over the years

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as I've gotten... older and more advisor and

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more experienced I suppose when I was a bit younger

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in school high school etc it was to get into

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a good university that's what success meant to

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me when I was in university I think success just

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meant getting through my my bachelor's degree

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and getting through my courses and then towards

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the end of it it was just getting a good job

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but now that I've been working for almost 10

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years I think the definition of success has changed

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but ever so slightly as well. I think in the

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early parts of my career was to work hard, hustle,

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try to grow myself, grow my career as much as

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possible. It was just focused heavily on that,

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along with my wife as well, who I met in college.

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But I think at this stage of my life and my career,

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I'm at a point where success for me is a blend

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of both personal and professional lives. I want

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to be able to do the best work I can. and move

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ahead in my career. But at the same time, success

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for me also means being able to fund the lifestyle

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or have the experiences that I want with myself

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and my wife. And now I have a six -month -old

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son as well. So it's really now a blend of moving

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both these along and not really, I think. over

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-indexing on just one, because I think then that

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disrupts the balance. So right now, success for

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me is being able to manage my career in a way

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where I'm doing good work, learning new things,

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creating an impact, building a name for myself,

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while in my personal life, I'm trying to spend

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time with my wife and kid and have the experiences

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that we want to have together. So how did you

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make it there? So let's talk about... your teenage

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years and everything that you were doing, your

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habits, your interests, what kind of students

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you were, everything you can share with us today.

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Yeah, thanks for the question again. I think

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it's really important, like you said as well,

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to jump into the foundational years, I would

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say. And looking back now, everything seems so

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different and so far behind as well. But I do

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think there are certain things and principles

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or just certain behaviors that I perhaps learned

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during those early teenage days that stick with

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me today as well. And so I think the main thing

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that drove me was the fact that both my parents

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were working parents. So my father, he worked

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at a company for many years as a director, but

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in the last maybe 10, 15 years of his career,

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he had his own business. I think he had a factory

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of some sort in different areas of industry in

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Pakistan. And sometimes what would happen, unfortunately,

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is things wouldn't work out, but he would never

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quit. He would always pivot to another industry

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or figure things out and try hard and work hard.

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I've always, always seen him have that sort of

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approach and mindset. And even now, actually,

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funnily enough, I was in Pakistan visiting my

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family just last month. My dad's almost 65 now,

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but... He's still doing most of his, he's retired

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now, but he's doing most of his work himself.

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So if, for example, he needs to build a small

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shed, a small bird cage, he'll get the wood from

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the market. He'll get the tools. He'll make things

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himself. So very, very hands -on, but very much

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still hardworking and doing his own thing. My

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mother was a doctor. Again, she's retired as

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well now. But I remember her. So she used to

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work when we were younger as well. She'd work

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from 9 a .m. to 2 p .m. And that's because she

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had to pick us up from school. So I have three

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more siblings, so she had to pick all of us from

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school. And so I remember just her sending us

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to school in the morning and going to her work,

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her clinic, and leaving that to pick us up. then

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picking up basically four kids, taking us home,

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then making us lunch and then homework and everything.

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So I've always, always seen both my parents work

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really, really hard. I think that's one of the

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key, key development or foundational things that

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I think stuck with me and is my core right now

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as well. And what kind of students were you?

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In terms of what kind of student I was, honestly,

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I think there was two phases that I had. One

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was where I was a very good student and I'd kind

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of, you know, basically do my homework on time

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and do the right things basically in class. But

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I think towards the end of middle school, I met

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a few friends who I'm still friends with today,

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who I don't want to say were a bad influence,

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but this opened up a whole new other side. of

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myself that I wasn't aware of. And it's also

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just one thing I do want to add here as well.

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You meet all sorts of friends in middle school,

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right? And some of them will open up certain

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aspects of your personality, while others will

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open up other aspects. So I think in middle school,

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when I met those friends of mine, a whole new

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world of experience came about. I started being

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interested in the same sports they were interested

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in. football and these different volleyball etc

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um and even into video gaming as well so like

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counter strike and these different games dota

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etc so um just picked up a whole lot of different

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interest and then my grades dropped a little

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bit perhaps, but I was still a pretty smart kid,

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studious kid. My parents were heavily, heavily

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focused on making sure we were focused on our

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studies as well. And I know this is a bit of

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a long answer from what you asked, but my grandparents

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were very, very well educated as well from both

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sides. My maternal grandfather was a doctor,

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one of the first in the city of Hyderabad in

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Pakistan, which is a small city. My mom's siblings

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are all doctors as well. Very much focused on

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education. So this was a very, very core thing.

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So I do think I hover between good grades and

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medium grades. Never bad. But yeah, that was

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it. I was very interested in math, in chemistry.

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I think just physics. I was generally all around.

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pretty interested in what i was studying it was

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just um of course i mean when you're in school

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you also want to have fun so there was that but

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like um i didn't think any sub maybe social sciences

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or geography was boring you know a bit but i

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think generally speaking the rest were pretty

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interesting like math and and that sort of stuff

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physics was very interesting to me always but

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um yeah so that was that was some of the stuff

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i i i was involved in and do you remember why

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you were more interested in math physics chemistry

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I think you're asking some questions which I

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never really thought of before, but great questions.

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So I think perhaps one of the reasons I was always

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interested in physics and this sort of stuff

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as well. I mean, don't get me wrong. I was pretty

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good at English. So just for some context as

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well, I went to a private school in Pakistan.

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And luckily enough for me, it was one of the

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best institutions in Pakistan, one of the oldest

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as well. It was set up by the British in the

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1800s or something. But I was always good at

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English comprehension, reading, literature. I

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loved reading as well. I wish I had more time

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to read now, but I just loved reading. But I

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was always fascinated by physics and math and

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chemistry as well, just because my father was

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a mechanical engineer. And I think he did an

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MBA as a master's as well. So he had a really

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solid blend of knowing how things work. but also

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having a business mindset as well. And so I remember

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very early on, like in our house actually, if

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the fridge was broken, if the TV was broken,

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if the AC wasn't working, if my PlayStation wasn't

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working, if, you know, anything of that sort,

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my father would actually open it up and figure

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out what was wrong and fix it. And so if I remember

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correctly as well, even early on when I think

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I was 14, 15. When he was at work, sometimes

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I'd open up certain electronics myself using

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a screwdriver. I wouldn't always put them back

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together because I didn't know how to. I do remember

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there was a time where I'd fix my own PlayStation,

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basically. I knew what he would do. So I'd do

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that. I think that's also something I picked

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up. And now I kind of... Troubleshooting is what

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you call it in the modern day world, right? So

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I still have that sort of mindset. But I think

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just generally... seeing him that way always

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made me interested in how things work so like

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a weird thing to share but if you look at my

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youtube history now as well you might find really

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strange things like like totally random i'm like

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how does the root canal work what happens in

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the root canal you know i'm not a dentist but

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a root canal is a dental procedure that i was

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like hey how does it work um even like how do

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electrical batteries work so i have an electric

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vehicle and so when I have a charger for it and

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I was thinking okay how does this charger really

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work so even though I have nothing to do within

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my work or anything but it's just that I really

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love seeing how things work and I guess physics

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is a part of it but math also when it comes to

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numbers I guess maybe that's why I was interested

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in it also because I was good at it others encouraged

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me as well and so it was just maybe perhaps the

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natural thing when you're praised for something

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you like you like to do it more often as well

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uh but actually sorry one more thing i missed

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uh and i would do an ad i think that was also

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a time period where i became very interested

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in music so my friends in in in middle school

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um i mentioned they weren't all bad influenced

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introduced me to some positive things as well

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so football sports a lot of them um music was

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a big part as well i bought my first guitar in

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middle school as well um so yeah like just one

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thing i wanted to add there though So would you

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say that your family played a key role in helping

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you developing this curious mindset? 100%. I

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think I genuinely believe if they didn't instill

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the sort of values and the attitude and the mentality,

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just the hard work in me at that age, I am very

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sure I wouldn't be where I am today. And just

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to give an example as well, my sister is a dentist.

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She's in Pakistan. She has three kids. She's

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not practicing right now because she has three

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kids and she's just busy with them. But it was

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always something that all of us, all my siblings

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had. My older brother, he worked at L 'Oreal,

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which is a cosmetic company. It's a big company,

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right? So good position. My younger brother worked

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for one of the biggest e -commerce platforms

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in Pakistan. And so it was always a case of trying

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to push ourselves in a way where we'd... we we

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were very we were all very ambitious but i think

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one other thing as well they they did instill

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as well was um not not going to excess basically

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ambition is great but don't let it overcome your

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life if that makes sense you know don't let it

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be the sole purpose you exist for and so that's

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something that was always very important as well

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um i think there was a lot of family oriented

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values in terms of like family's important friends

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are important as well but like family is also

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important work hard just i guess i don't want

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to i don't want to use the word traditional old

00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:56.080
school but that is how i think most traditional

00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.980
old school families were so i think that that's

00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.100
one of the key factors i think that led me to

00:14:01.100 --> 00:14:03.759
where i am today were you realizing this when

00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.059
you were a teenager do you think you learned

00:14:06.059 --> 00:14:09.259
those values and those habits and this way of

00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:14.019
thinking by seeing them acting as such as leaving

00:14:14.019 --> 00:14:18.919
their values and showing you how it looked like

00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.500
to be determined, for example? Yeah, 100%. I

00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:26.039
think that was key for me to develop my habits.

00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.559
But like you said as well, I don't think I appreciated

00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:33.460
it or understood it when I was a teenager. I

00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:36.399
think I only started to understand these values

00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.299
when I went to university, which is another city,

00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.200
Lahore, like I mentioned. And that university

00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:45.100
as well, by the way, it's considered the best

00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:47.279
institution or the best university in Pakistan

00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.259
as well. And the program that I went to as well,

00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:51.860
and I'm sure we can speak about it a bit more,

00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:55.080
just for some context, the program was considered

00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.120
the most toughest undergraduate program apart

00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.399
from the engineering school, obviously, but in

00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.820
the business and social sciences and all of that

00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:06.279
world was considered the toughest. But I think

00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:09.659
that's when I went to university was when I actually

00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:14.820
realized. all of these values that I had developed,

00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:18.059
I guess, or I had seen and learned from them.

00:15:18.580 --> 00:15:21.240
But when I was a teenager and when I was in high

00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.679
school or middle school, I think at that time

00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.600
I wasn't able to appreciate it at all. At that

00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.600
time, I just wanted to have fun. When you're

00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.580
a teenager, you're also a bit rebellious as well,

00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.600
so it's a bit different then. But I think looking

00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.039
back when I went to university, I was able to

00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:40.059
spend some time on my own and reflect on my previous

00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:42.580
years. That's when I realized like, oh, wow,

00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:44.980
like those are some really important things that

00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:47.580
I learned from them. So, yeah. And looking back

00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:50.799
at your teenagers, are there any practical steps

00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.059
that the younger generation listening to us can

00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:58.139
take from your own experience? Were there any

00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.799
advice your parents were giving you? Any habits

00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.019
they invite you to have, you and your siblings?

00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.440
Is there anything you can share with us that

00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.120
you remember from that time? Yeah, thank you

00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:10.980
for that. I think it's really important like

00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:13.159
you're doing. I mean, the whole idea of the podcast

00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:16.259
as well when I spoke to you was how we can inspire

00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:18.179
and help the younger generation as well. I think

00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:20.179
that's really important to focus on that. But

00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:24.100
I think when I was a bit earlier in my middle

00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:26.220
school years, I think my parents and I just had

00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:28.240
this habit that when we come home from school,

00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:31.720
we have lunch and then we get to our homework,

00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.000
you know, immediately. Because, I mean, It was

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:37.659
just something that they told me to do. But B,

00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:40.000
looking back at it now, it was a great habit

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.679
because you get your homework and your revision

00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.299
as quickly as possible out of the way, maybe

00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:47.379
an hour, an hour and a half. And then you have

00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:50.320
the rest of the evening fee to maybe go out and

00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:52.519
play with your friends or watch cartoons or whatever.

00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:55.879
So I think it's really important, the concept

00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.500
of revision, right? And I think I would always

00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:04.299
recommend to people that whatever concepts you

00:17:04.299 --> 00:17:07.880
learn in... in school or whatever you don't even

00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:09.559
learn like you think you know you're in school

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:11.119
you're not listening to half the things sometimes

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.400
I think even spending a good 15 -30 minutes at

00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.660
home just going through certain pages of what

00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:22.019
you did today can be a huge huge game changer

00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:26.279
in terms of refreshing your memory one other

00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.200
habit which I didn't have but I want people I

00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.559
think I really want younger generations to have

00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.519
and something I perhaps wanted my child as well

00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.319
as, and this is something based on years of research

00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.019
and I read it as an adult, actually, unfortunately,

00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.980
but which is sleep is a big, big consolidator

00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:48.339
of information. So sleep helps you, your brain

00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:51.960
store information and consolidate. So if you

00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:55.000
can think of it in a way, like whatever you've

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.799
learned in the day, it's all scattered in your

00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.880
brain, but when you sleep, it gets saved effectively.

00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:04.380
And so the idea is that. You need to be able

00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:08.619
to sleep enough hours during the night. That

00:18:08.619 --> 00:18:11.480
is required. I think at that age, maybe eight

00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:13.079
hours is required. I'm not even sure anymore.

00:18:13.220 --> 00:18:16.319
But one thing I always recommend, if you want

00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.799
to, and this is just my personal advice, if you

00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.099
want to learn things, if you want to progress,

00:18:21.259 --> 00:18:24.359
if you want to grow, if you want to develop yourself

00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.200
and your skill sets, it's so important for yourself

00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:31.200
to get good sleep. I don't know if kids are going

00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:32.690
to listen to it right now. whoever's listening

00:18:32.690 --> 00:18:34.809
to this but if you can if you can just sleep

00:18:34.809 --> 00:18:37.509
maybe 30 minutes more or 45 minutes more at night

00:18:37.509 --> 00:18:40.390
that's a great start so I think that's one thing

00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:43.089
that I didn't have I was a pretty bad sleeper

00:18:43.089 --> 00:18:46.630
and I do regret it now you know I wish I could

00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.109
change that so that's one thing I'd recommend

00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:51.809
but other habits than that was just like I think

00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:54.009
my parents were very strict they just make sure

00:18:54.009 --> 00:18:56.990
we revise they did our homework we have after

00:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.619
-school classes as well sometimes there were

00:18:59.619 --> 00:19:02.220
some tuitions so a big culture in Pakistan was

00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:04.660
going to tuition centers which they basically

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:06.900
revised concepts and help you understand and

00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:10.099
pick up things if you weren't able to in school

00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:12.880
so just I think the focus was heavily on revision

00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:17.019
revision but at the same time do go enjoy yourself

00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:19.839
like because I think if you're heavily focused

00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.400
on just revision then It might just suck the

00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:25.460
joy of everything that you're doing. I think

00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:29.059
being in high school, everything is about balance,

00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:31.940
like it is right now as well. So yeah, I think

00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:34.900
focus on the revision, but make sure you also

00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:38.960
enjoy yourself. Otherwise, you won't end up happy

00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.079
with either of those two things. Okay, so three

00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.700
takeaways, three learnings from... Usman, you

00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:47.960
are there. So first, you have to do your homework.

00:19:48.099 --> 00:19:50.500
You have to focus on your classes. You have to

00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:53.519
find ways to try to understand them. And it can

00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.220
be through after -hour classes supported by tutors,

00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:00.420
or it can be through watching YouTube videos,

00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:02.940
content online, reading books at the library,

00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:06.740
anything that you have available to you to help

00:20:06.740 --> 00:20:08.599
you understand better what you learned during

00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:11.400
the same day, during the same week. The second

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.430
thing is that to... Make sure you save those

00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:18.349
information to better your sleep hours. Sleeping

00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:20.809
will help you remember everything you just learned.

00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:23.529
And the third element that Usman shared with

00:20:23.529 --> 00:20:26.789
us is that you have to enjoy. You have to have

00:20:26.789 --> 00:20:30.309
activities outside of all those things which

00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:32.890
help you disconnect, which help you relax and

00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:35.509
help you have a great time with your friends

00:20:35.509 --> 00:20:38.549
or people outside of your school. And talking

00:20:38.549 --> 00:20:40.349
about this, Usman, can you tell us a little bit

00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:43.160
more about what you were doing? What do you think,

00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:46.400
looking back, all those extracurricular activities

00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.920
taught you? With my friends, we'd actually play

00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.099
twice a week football at each other's house.

00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.640
But also, I think with my neighborhood group

00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.700
of friends, because we're in the same proximity

00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:01.460
in terms of housing, we'd almost play every single

00:21:01.460 --> 00:21:03.920
day. And if we didn't play football every single

00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.099
day, we'd just get together and play board games

00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:11.720
in the park. We'd just like... talk or we just

00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.680
like play cricket or just run about play basketball

00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.539
if there was a net someone bought a net we play

00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:19.119
basketball um someone brings a volleyball we

00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.180
play volleyball it was just a case of whoever

00:21:21.180 --> 00:21:24.279
brings anything um sometimes we go to the houses

00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.660
and play playstation so i think those early years

00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:30.759
of um friendship with different groups really

00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.559
helps you um with your mental and emotional development

00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:37.720
but also like you learn how to foster and build

00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.349
relationships as well and again I know I'm talking

00:21:40.349 --> 00:21:43.109
about it like these are conscious things. At

00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:45.069
that time, you don't realize it, right? But I

00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:47.849
think whoever is doing it right now, I just advise

00:21:47.849 --> 00:21:49.490
to them, my advice to them is just keep going.

00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:54.130
10 years from now, you might think, oh, that

00:21:54.130 --> 00:21:57.250
really helped me. So studies are very important,

00:21:57.349 --> 00:22:00.349
obviously, to get ahead in life. having that

00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.369
sort of grit personality that sport or friendship

00:22:03.369 --> 00:22:05.410
teaches you because when you're friends with

00:22:05.410 --> 00:22:07.289
someone you will have fights you will have arguments

00:22:07.289 --> 00:22:10.970
um you will have discussions you will um you

00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:13.009
will win some you'll lose some you'll work in

00:22:13.009 --> 00:22:16.069
a team you'll work solo uh and those sort of

00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:18.309
experiences can never come about in a school

00:22:18.309 --> 00:22:20.890
setting or like education so i think those are

00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:23.940
so important for you to develop as a person Finding

00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:27.500
activities outside of your school walls is incredibly

00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:29.859
important. Life doesn't stop at school or high

00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:32.859
school. And you know what? Actually, some cities

00:22:32.859 --> 00:22:35.720
are offering activities with teenagers where

00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:37.640
they can practice different activities such as

00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:43.259
artistic ones or sports. And it will expand your

00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:45.859
view on your life and you'll get to discover

00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:49.619
what you're capable of. To wrap up on your teenage

00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:53.200
years. Do you have any advice, something you

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.640
wish you knew at the time? I'm glad you asked

00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.559
that because I was going to add, I have one last

00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.799
point to add. And I think it's so important to

00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:05.119
have good role models when you're younger in

00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.180
your teenage years. And so, for example, what

00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:09.700
I mean by that is when I was basically in middle

00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:12.640
school, high school, one of my biggest role models

00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:18.000
were sports personalities, right? And what they

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.269
teach you oftentimes... And now, obviously, you

00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:23.390
have access to social media where you can literally

00:23:23.390 --> 00:23:26.809
see exactly what these sports personalities are

00:23:26.809 --> 00:23:31.109
up to. And what you can do is be inspired by

00:23:31.109 --> 00:23:35.390
them to work hard or just have discipline in

00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:37.809
your life or just follow a certain direction.

00:23:38.109 --> 00:23:40.329
And the reason I mentioned sports personalities

00:23:40.329 --> 00:23:43.049
in particular is I think nowadays there's so

00:23:43.049 --> 00:23:46.769
many other non -sports role models as well, which

00:23:46.769 --> 00:23:49.680
is perfectly fine. But I do think that it's so

00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.259
important to have role models that show you the

00:23:52.259 --> 00:23:54.519
value of hard work and discipline. I think right

00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:57.660
now you have a lot of influencers which are doing

00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.859
great from a monetary perspective. They're making

00:23:59.859 --> 00:24:03.099
money, right? On YouTube or TikTok, etc. They're

00:24:03.099 --> 00:24:07.420
very famous. They're very popular as well. But

00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:11.640
they might not inspire you in a way which...

00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:15.190
allows you to push your limits. And that's something

00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:17.509
you really want to work towards if you have a

00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:20.069
role model as a teenager. I couldn't have said

00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:23.230
it better. Through this podcast, I want to show

00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:25.970
you how hard people have been working to make

00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:28.750
it through the countless challenges they are

00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:32.650
facing and that they are now sharing. But indeed,

00:24:32.789 --> 00:24:36.190
athletes are the role models you can learn so

00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:40.640
much from and it's so accessible. They are showing

00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.160
you how early they wake up. They are showing

00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.259
you how demanding their training they do every

00:24:47.259 --> 00:24:50.079
day is. They are showing you their ups and downs.

00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.380
They are showing you their failures, their successes,

00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:54.960
what it takes and how they make it through. Ed?

00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.059
Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say apologies

00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:59.599
for forgetting you. Having role models which

00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:02.359
can push you to your limits in a different way,

00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:05.210
like physical. emotionally, mentally, you know,

00:25:05.210 --> 00:25:08.690
who can kind of help you expand your horizons

00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:11.690
is probably best for you. Once you figure that

00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:13.750
out, you can go into whatever career you want.

00:25:13.829 --> 00:25:16.470
You can be a sports person. And I do think also

00:25:16.470 --> 00:25:18.970
like learn from their discipline, learn from

00:25:18.970 --> 00:25:22.690
their energy, learn from their positive attitude,

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:25.509
their never give up sort of behavior. And I'm

00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:31.250
not endorsing working from like 12 hours a day.

00:25:31.329 --> 00:25:33.880
I'm not endorsing that either. I'm just saying

00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.900
develop a personality where you are able to push

00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:40.640
yourself in a way that's healthy enough. Does

00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.119
that make sense? And sorry if I got you off there.

00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:45.859
You're absolutely fine. So what do we mean by

00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:48.799
everything we just shared? That if you don't

00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.660
have a role model at home or outside, finding

00:25:52.660 --> 00:25:56.099
athletes you can follow and learn from may change

00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.700
your view on how much you can make it through

00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:01.680
your own challenges in high school or later in

00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:06.180
life. What athletes are doing is they are showing

00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:10.420
you the mindset and behaviors that can help you

00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:13.619
face those challenges to move further in your

00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:15.779
learnings, in your ambitions, in your failures,

00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.099
in everything that comes your way. They show

00:26:19.099 --> 00:26:20.900
you that you need to be disciplined, you need

00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:24.140
to be focused, you need to be practicing positive

00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:26.960
self -talk and you will eventually need to wake

00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.180
up early and you will eventually need to push

00:26:29.180 --> 00:26:33.130
your limits and believe in yourself. And you

00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:35.150
know what? If you need someone who looks like

00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:37.490
you, who is from the same background, someone

00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:39.410
who's from the same country, someone you can

00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:43.589
identify to, look for Olympians. How to find

00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:46.329
them? The Olympics page gathers the competing

00:26:46.329 --> 00:26:49.529
athletes. So if, like Usman, you're from Pakistan,

00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:53.849
go look for someone. We actually have a javelin

00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:56.750
thrower who's a gold medalist or a silver medalist

00:26:56.750 --> 00:26:59.049
in the Olympics. So literally, we have someone

00:26:59.049 --> 00:27:02.960
from the Olympics. You know what's... I know

00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:04.619
where you wanted to move on to the next question

00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:08.200
but it's exactly like what you said after he

00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.880
won and he became popular in terms of his media

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.660
presence and you know watching Olympics and Asian

00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:17.920
Games etc there's so many Pakistanis now who

00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:22.599
are trying like javelin even in the remotest

00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.640
village there's videos they don't have the equipment

00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.740
they're just doing it in a field but they're

00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:30.019
just throwing you know, like a jabbing sort of

00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:31.759
stick and they're trying it out. So I mean, that's

00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.960
the importance of having such figures in your

00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.980
own country or someone who looks like you as

00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:40.420
well. So looking into your higher education,

00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:43.559
Usman, can you tell us about your choice? Why

00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:46.380
did you choose that university? How did you build

00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:49.140
the confidence to move to a brand new town? Well,

00:27:49.220 --> 00:27:51.559
that university was considered the best university

00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.519
of Pakistan as well. And the program that I applied

00:27:55.519 --> 00:28:00.450
to was accounting and finance. And I was always

00:28:00.450 --> 00:28:03.130
good at accounting in school. So there was a

00:28:03.130 --> 00:28:07.529
subject that we had accounting. And I think the

00:28:07.529 --> 00:28:10.369
primary reason why I went for it, to be honest,

00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:14.650
was just because it was the most difficult major

00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:19.269
in the undergraduate sphere in that university

00:28:19.269 --> 00:28:22.569
from like a non -engineering perspective. So

00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:24.690
we had obviously computer engineering, electrical

00:28:24.690 --> 00:28:27.960
engineering in the university. everything apart

00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:29.519
from that this was supposed to be the toughest

00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:33.279
major and i just wanted to put myself i don't

00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.220
know why but i just wanted to put myself to one

00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:37.759
of the toughest things i could do you know you

00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.779
know what i'm i'm capable and i can do it so

00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:43.259
i you know i'll do it and so i applied to that

00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:46.619
major um i've never worked a day in accounting

00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:50.410
and finance apart from internships but um Just

00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:53.269
kind of wanted to go through, I guess, the process

00:28:53.269 --> 00:28:55.710
of being in Switzerland. But I think the first

00:28:55.710 --> 00:28:57.670
question you asked, what gave me the confidence?

00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:01.109
I think one thing that maybe perhaps helped was

00:29:01.109 --> 00:29:04.170
most of my friends were going abroad to the US,

00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:07.130
UK for university as well. I would say maybe

00:29:07.130 --> 00:29:12.650
90 % of them. And then I think from the remaining

00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:17.009
10%, I would say seven, I mean, random numbers,

00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:19.799
six, seven, 5%. We're also applying to the same

00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:21.960
university that I was applying to as well in

00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.160
the other city, Lahore. And the university's

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.180
name was Lahore University of Management Sciences,

00:29:28.460 --> 00:29:31.799
which is called LUMS for short. And so I was

00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:32.920
like, you know what? They're going as well. They're

00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:35.099
applying as well. Why not? But I think what gave

00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:38.279
me the confidence, and again, this is in hindsight

00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.960
that I look back now, I've always wanted to explore

00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:46.000
places and be in new places. Expanding my horizon

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.220
has been one of my... were my things which i

00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:52.859
never really realized until today um but don't

00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:55.380
get me wrong i was i was very scared when i first

00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:59.640
moved um to that city of the university so i

00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.099
was staying in the hostel you know they had student

00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:05.380
accommodation in the university uh my dad came

00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:07.640
to drop me to the other city he was there with

00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.059
me for the first day and i was i was so scared

00:30:11.059 --> 00:30:13.640
those two nights the night before i went and

00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:15.460
the night when i was there alone for the first

00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:19.339
time I mean, I'm saying alone, but like my friends

00:30:19.339 --> 00:30:21.900
were there, but I meant like with no family because

00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.079
before that I was always with family. But I think

00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.420
every time I've moved, it's been tough. But I

00:30:29.420 --> 00:30:34.720
think by now I know obviously that it's helped

00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.799
me develop myself as a person and the experiences

00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.519
that I've gained have been unparalleled. So I

00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.240
honestly don't know how I built the confidence

00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.609
and the courage. But I guess my friends moving

00:30:46.609 --> 00:30:50.910
helped. But I was very, very scared. So I think

00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:52.829
it's just something perhaps the younger listeners

00:30:52.829 --> 00:30:55.069
who are listening to right now as well should

00:30:55.069 --> 00:30:58.829
know that it's okay. You can be scared. It's

00:30:58.829 --> 00:31:03.430
a very normal thing. I was from a very closed

00:31:03.430 --> 00:31:07.730
-in family. My older sister and brother went

00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:10.269
to university in the same city as we lived in.

00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:14.849
So they never got a chance to do that. I did,

00:31:14.910 --> 00:31:17.369
and I think I was very nervous and scared, but

00:31:17.369 --> 00:31:21.309
it's okay. You learn from it and you grow from

00:31:21.309 --> 00:31:24.210
it. So I hope I answered the question. You did,

00:31:24.269 --> 00:31:27.329
you did. And I do want to highlight two things

00:31:27.329 --> 00:31:29.549
that you said. First, you said that you wanted

00:31:29.549 --> 00:31:32.869
to go towards the most difficult major. And the

00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:34.630
second thing you said is that you were telling

00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:38.130
yourself that you were capable. Those are strong

00:31:38.130 --> 00:31:43.000
statements. You trusted yourself. How? How did

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.539
you build the confidence there? How can someone

00:31:45.539 --> 00:31:49.079
proceed as you did and not put barriers to themselves,

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.759
limits to their decisions? Yeah, I think, honestly,

00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:57.000
I would give the credit to my parents and my

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.759
family. I think they always had me or instilled

00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.380
in me the belief that I could achieve whatever

00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:06.839
I wanted to. if I put in the hard work and the

00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:10.579
effort. And they always told me I was capable

00:32:10.579 --> 00:32:12.980
of doing whatever I wanted, basically. And so

00:32:12.980 --> 00:32:16.079
I think I would largely put it down to them.

00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.599
They gave me the confidence that I can do it.

00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:22.460
My father would always encourage me to do whatever

00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:26.769
I wanted as well. Luckily... I think, unfortunately,

00:32:27.289 --> 00:32:29.549
I know a lot of parents, even today, especially

00:32:29.549 --> 00:32:32.230
from Asia, South Asia, I'm from Pakistan, South

00:32:32.230 --> 00:32:35.450
Asia, a lot of parents put a lot of undue pressure

00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:39.829
on children to go through a certain career path,

00:32:39.970 --> 00:32:43.069
like doctors, engineers, whatever. And truth

00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:45.710
be told, when I was younger, I myself wanted

00:32:45.710 --> 00:32:47.650
to be an engineer like my dad. There's literally

00:32:47.650 --> 00:32:51.000
a video of me when I was four years old. and

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.480
I've seen it and that's how I know it where someone's

00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:54.859
asking what do I want to be when I grow up and

00:32:54.859 --> 00:32:56.519
I say I want to be an engineer like my dad you

00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.980
know so but eventually I didn't end up becoming

00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:00.759
an engineer but just goes to show that there

00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:02.900
was never any pressure so I think it's really

00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:06.180
important to have a good support system a good

00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:10.160
family system where your siblings and your parents

00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.759
and everyone around you can support you to do

00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:13.839
what you want and they can instill in you the

00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.660
belief that you can achieve those things I think

00:33:18.179 --> 00:33:20.559
the perfect example of that as well is and like

00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.339
like i was always just telling myself i can do

00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:25.539
it i can do it i think in the end of the second

00:33:25.539 --> 00:33:29.500
year i i had i had some doubts not about myself

00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:31.400
but like just tell me like is this something

00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:33.259
i really want to pursue or whatever you know

00:33:33.259 --> 00:33:36.460
and so i actually spoke to my father and to this

00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:38.640
day i call my father when i want to make a major

00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.259
life decision as well just to get his advice

00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.380
um sometimes i won't agree what he's saying but

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:45.910
i'll still get his advice nonetheless but at

00:33:45.910 --> 00:33:49.630
the end of my second sophomore year, I called

00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:51.269
him and I was like, I'm thinking of changing

00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:55.750
my major from accounting and finance. It's just

00:33:55.750 --> 00:33:59.170
that it is tough, but I know I can manage it.

00:33:59.230 --> 00:34:02.190
But it's just perhaps something I'm not too fond

00:34:02.190 --> 00:34:06.309
of. Maybe I'm not sure. And so I honestly thought

00:34:06.309 --> 00:34:09.369
he would have said, you've spent two years. Why

00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:11.610
waste a year or whatever? Just go finish it off.

00:34:12.369 --> 00:34:15.170
But he actually said, you know like if that's

00:34:15.170 --> 00:34:17.829
what you want to do like change it like figure

00:34:17.829 --> 00:34:19.829
it out you know you can you can ask the university

00:34:19.829 --> 00:34:22.309
how to how to change it it's your decision you

00:34:22.309 --> 00:34:23.949
have to live with it so whatever you want to

00:34:23.949 --> 00:34:27.969
do um and that sort of autonomy which was very

00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:30.809
rare my father wouldn't give that autonomy often

00:34:30.809 --> 00:34:34.309
um it made me reflect a bit and I realized you

00:34:34.309 --> 00:34:37.909
know what I'm just giving up at the first sign

00:34:37.909 --> 00:34:40.829
of a bit of difficulty and I know I can do it

00:34:40.829 --> 00:34:43.289
you know this isn't rocket science I just have

00:34:43.289 --> 00:34:46.130
to apply myself and I'm not saying I was I got

00:34:46.130 --> 00:34:49.130
like 4 .0 GPA which is basically the grading

00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:53.230
system throughout college but I was a pretty

00:34:53.230 --> 00:34:55.469
decent student I wasn't maybe at the higher end

00:34:55.469 --> 00:34:57.670
of the row end but like because it was tough

00:34:57.670 --> 00:35:02.289
to be honest but it just made me or gave me the

00:35:02.289 --> 00:35:05.789
belief that you know what I am I am free to decide

00:35:05.789 --> 00:35:08.590
what I want to do and I am able to make the decisions

00:35:08.590 --> 00:35:12.219
I want to make and I can do it so That's just

00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:13.780
something that stuck with me. Like even today,

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.079
I always think of this example where he could

00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:17.639
have easily told me to kind of switch majors

00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:19.820
and that would have been the end of it. But because

00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:21.800
he's always the sort of person who wouldn't want

00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.280
me to give up, like you don't think about it

00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:27.019
and do what makes sense for you, which made me

00:35:27.019 --> 00:35:28.860
go back and reflect. So I don't know if that's

00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:30.119
answered the question that you're looking for,

00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:32.420
but I think that's the kind of confidence and

00:35:32.420 --> 00:35:35.480
belief that he always gave me. Yeah. And indirectly,

00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:39.360
I think he was kind of coaching. And I know you

00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:41.519
said we'll speak about my coaching element a

00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.000
bit later as well. And I feel like you mentioned

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:45.940
having a loving family, right? Like a supportive

00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:49.360
family, right? I think more than that, I still

00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.239
look to him, which is a bit of a, I'm not saying

00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.739
that he's been a coach my entire life, but in

00:35:54.739 --> 00:35:56.900
a way he's been coaching me my entire life as

00:35:56.900 --> 00:35:59.099
well, you know? And that's kind of helped me

00:35:59.099 --> 00:36:02.059
develop the mindset and personality to help do

00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:04.980
the same thing for others who don't perhaps have

00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:07.019
that sort of support. But yeah, I'm sure we can

00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.289
get into it a bit later. Yes, absolutely. We'll

00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:12.650
be talking about your coaching on the side very,

00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:15.809
very soon in details. And if you don't have that

00:36:15.809 --> 00:36:18.769
ecosystem to help you think it through, asking

00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:22.170
questions and everything else, just sit with

00:36:22.170 --> 00:36:25.469
yourself. Try to ask yourself what makes sense.

00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:28.789
Do you need to push through? Do you need to continue

00:36:28.789 --> 00:36:32.869
towards that path? Or should you pursue a different

00:36:32.869 --> 00:36:37.289
path which makes more sense for you? And going

00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:40.269
back to your decision to move abroad, did you

00:36:40.269 --> 00:36:43.869
have any doubts, any concerns, or were you absolutely

00:36:43.869 --> 00:36:47.050
eager and looking forward to that move? I honestly

00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:50.750
never doubted my decision to move. Perhaps the

00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:53.050
first two nights, like I mentioned, when I was

00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:56.110
scared, I doubted my move. I was maybe secretly

00:36:56.110 --> 00:37:00.170
wishing I'd just stayed home. And also the interesting

00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:02.590
thing as well is both my brothers and the university

00:37:02.590 --> 00:37:04.980
that they went to in their home city, That's

00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:06.619
considered the second best university in Pakistan

00:37:06.619 --> 00:37:08.760
as well. So there's always a good option in terms

00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.619
of even if I had to take the next sort of basically.

00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.519
But I do think I never doubted that decision.

00:37:16.699 --> 00:37:21.639
I think it was just something that I was driven

00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:24.599
by the quality perhaps. But I think I was also

00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:28.559
driven heavily by the experience and the learnings

00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.320
that I might have, which I wouldn't have ever

00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:35.199
had had I been like... going to the university

00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.840
in my same city. And how are you great at the

00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.780
time? Were you 100 % sure that you will get in?

00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:44.719
Most private high schools in Pakistan have the

00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.840
GCSE system, which is the British system, which

00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.420
is the O and A levels system. I'm not sure which

00:37:52.420 --> 00:37:55.199
countries have that right now, but I think Ireland

00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.280
has a similar. Leaving third system, junior third

00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.639
system, but it's the bitter system. But basically,

00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:04.480
my grades, they're determined whether I got into

00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:09.559
the university or not. And I did have really

00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:14.000
good grades in my GCSEs, which is what it's called.

00:38:14.219 --> 00:38:18.360
So I had like nine A's and one B out of 10 subjects,

00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:21.340
which I have to be honest, I was very surprised

00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:28.519
by myself. I think, honestly, so what happened,

00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:30.780
again, just for some context, there's O levels,

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:33.539
ordinary levels, which is, and if anyone's read

00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:37.940
Harry Potter, the book, they know that the system

00:38:37.940 --> 00:38:41.820
that's mentioned in their books has been derived

00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:44.519
from the British system because the author is

00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.260
also British as well. So the ordinary level is

00:38:47.260 --> 00:38:50.780
basically 9th, 10th, and 11th grade of schooling.

00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.860
And your grades, they're kind of... are what's

00:38:54.860 --> 00:38:57.900
used partially for college applications. And

00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:00.980
the advanced level is usually two years. Sometimes

00:39:00.980 --> 00:39:05.440
it's one year. And that's basically like 12 and

00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:10.099
13. But some countries don't have 13 years of

00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:11.940
high school education. They have images as well.

00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.280
So most universities give you admission based

00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.260
on your O -levels and your first year of advanced

00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:22.280
levels, not the second year. And so my O -level

00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:27.920
grades are fantastic. nine A's one B which is

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.179
basically A was the highest now they have A star

00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:32.119
as well which is the new category but at that

00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:33.599
time it was the highest and then my A levels

00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.840
first year was I would say pretty decent pretty

00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:39.539
good not the best but like two A's and two B's

00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:42.159
so pretty decent and those are the grades that

00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:44.579
I used to apply for university and with those

00:39:44.579 --> 00:39:46.599
grades and the school that I went to high school

00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:48.960
like I mentioned it's considered the best in

00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:53.460
Pakistan There was very little doubt. I would

00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:55.940
say anyone who had a decent level of grades from

00:39:55.940 --> 00:39:58.119
my school got into the university because all

00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:00.619
universities are also looking for bringing certain

00:40:00.619 --> 00:40:03.639
profile of students as well from different schools.

00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.619
But then there was a conditional offer that I

00:40:07.619 --> 00:40:10.800
can't get any Ds in my overall. So basically

00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:13.139
when I eventually gave my advanced level second

00:40:13.139 --> 00:40:17.940
year exams, all I needed to do was avoid any

00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:20.300
Ds. because they had given me a condition offer.

00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:23.579
And so I think that year I spent, because it

00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:25.460
was one of the last years before all my friends

00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:27.380
went to college and university and myself as

00:40:27.380 --> 00:40:30.119
well. I barely studied that year and I ended

00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:33.219
up with a B and three Cs or three Bs and a C.

00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.800
So I barely made the cut, but that's also an

00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:40.059
advice I want to give to younger generation as

00:40:40.059 --> 00:40:42.619
well. Please, please, please do make sure that

00:40:42.619 --> 00:40:44.219
if we get a conditional offer from anywhere,

00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:48.059
do not take it easy, do not be complacent. I

00:40:48.059 --> 00:40:52.739
know someone, by the way, who actually did really

00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:56.719
well in their advanced levels year one. And they

00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:59.039
were just sitting in year two like me, but they

00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:03.880
got one D. And the university I went to, they

00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:06.219
don't even require that you, they only require

00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:10.139
grades from three subjects, right? But they don't

00:41:10.139 --> 00:41:13.440
allow any student with a D. And so this person

00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.489
that I know of gave four subjects exams. And

00:41:16.489 --> 00:41:18.610
the fourth one was a D. So they're like, it's

00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:22.230
fine. But then the university said no. And so

00:41:22.230 --> 00:41:26.070
actually their offer was rescinded and they had

00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:27.989
to go to a different university for one year,

00:41:28.090 --> 00:41:31.429
give those exams again. And then they came back

00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:34.570
because it's considered one of the best universities.

00:41:34.769 --> 00:41:37.369
So I'm just saying no. I'm not trying to scare

00:41:37.369 --> 00:41:39.769
anyone listening to this podcast, but please,

00:41:39.869 --> 00:41:42.719
please, please make sure that you don't. Just,

00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.920
you know, ghost about or get complacent. Make

00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:48.880
sure you get the minimum required for any conditional

00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.539
offers. But just some advice I thought I'd share.

00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.059
And again, this is the ambition of this podcast.

00:41:54.440 --> 00:41:57.119
To remind you that the decision and the investments

00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:01.179
you're making in yourself in high school are

00:42:01.179 --> 00:42:05.219
so important. If you decide to give it all, once

00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:08.239
you decide where you want to go and where do

00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:10.340
you want to study, what do you want to study?

00:42:10.989 --> 00:42:15.010
Your grades will open the doors for you. Yeah,

00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.590
yeah, 100%. I think it's so important, like,

00:42:17.610 --> 00:42:21.130
just to hammer it home, 100%. Like, my parents

00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.469
always said, oh, this is the most important year

00:42:23.469 --> 00:42:26.809
of your education. And I always thought, do you

00:42:26.809 --> 00:42:28.869
say that every year? I'm sure it's not true.

00:42:29.130 --> 00:42:32.409
But I genuinely believe it's true. It is. If

00:42:32.409 --> 00:42:36.599
you don't get good enough grades in school. you

00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.940
won't get into a good university, more often

00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:42.199
than not. And if you don't get into a good university,

00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:46.000
more often than not, you might not be able to

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.400
get the jobs that you want. Because it is a thing,

00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:52.159
it is a sad reality of the world that good school

00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.079
will get you into a good college, good university.

00:42:54.980 --> 00:42:58.780
I sometimes use college and university interchangeably,

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.280
but I mean the same thing. But a good university

00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:04.860
can sometimes help you land a good job. Unfortunately,

00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:08.139
very, very sad. But if you mess up early on in

00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:10.619
your school, then the whole chain kind of breaks

00:43:10.619 --> 00:43:14.980
apart. So I do want to emphasize to people, your

00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:16.559
parents might be telling you this and you might

00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.079
think it's all false, but take it from someone

00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:24.219
who's seen their friends fall off. So it's really

00:43:24.219 --> 00:43:29.579
important. Usman, you said that you chose accounting.

00:43:30.619 --> 00:43:34.599
By default, kind of, or you don't have a particular

00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:38.059
attachment to that field. But what did it teach

00:43:38.059 --> 00:43:42.039
you? Do you have any takeaways from that curriculum

00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:46.460
that still is impacting your life today? Work

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:51.320
life, personal life? Yeah, yeah, no. So I don't

00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:53.320
think I use anything to do with accounting and

00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:56.179
finance now. I will admit knowing a bit of finance

00:43:56.179 --> 00:43:58.579
helps me with basic concepts when it comes to

00:43:58.579 --> 00:44:01.320
literally like giving my life. you know like

00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:03.539
knowing a bit of finance is important from that

00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:05.679
perspective when you live your life you live

00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.039
in a house or apartment whatever i mean you live

00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.280
on your own you have a family those concepts

00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:12.800
are important there but like generally in terms

00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.019
of education i don't think i use much of what

00:44:15.019 --> 00:44:17.900
i learned but what i what it did teach me and

00:44:17.900 --> 00:44:21.079
i think sometimes universities what did the purpose

00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.219
of university i feel like is not just to instill

00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.480
a new knowledge about a certain major in some

00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:27.940
courses it's to build a personality and build

00:44:27.940 --> 00:44:30.869
experiences to make you into a person ready for

00:44:30.869 --> 00:44:33.969
the real practical world right so i think accounting

00:44:33.969 --> 00:44:38.010
and finance the major taught me um that very

00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:41.369
honestly without sugarcoating it taught me that

00:44:41.369 --> 00:44:43.630
if you don't work hard enough or if you don't

00:44:43.630 --> 00:44:47.170
pull your socks up and and and um you know just

00:44:47.170 --> 00:44:50.130
just have the right sort of mindset and attitude

00:44:50.130 --> 00:44:52.809
you will be left behind and you might fail and

00:44:52.809 --> 00:44:56.150
so just an example um my course was my major

00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:58.800
was the only one in undergraduate degrees That

00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.880
if you don't, if you missed, not even missed

00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:05.000
actually, if you were late more than 10 minutes

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:08.880
or missed a class, four times in the whole semester,

00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:12.940
you'll get a straight F, like a fail. So there

00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:17.019
was basically no, I mean, I know I said miss

00:45:17.019 --> 00:45:18.840
earlier, but even if you were more than 10 minutes

00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:21.239
late, that's considered like a missed class.

00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:26.599
And so our major was modeled on the MBA format.

00:45:27.289 --> 00:45:29.869
which is the master's degree right so um class

00:45:29.869 --> 00:45:31.869
for participation where you have to speak up

00:45:31.869 --> 00:45:34.969
in class had like 20 percent of our 15 percent

00:45:34.969 --> 00:45:37.730
of our grade so it was just a very very rigorous

00:45:37.730 --> 00:45:40.929
major where i had to work hard no matter what

00:45:40.929 --> 00:45:43.210
like and there's so many nights i can't even

00:45:43.210 --> 00:45:46.690
tell you and all it is my friend's room next

00:45:46.690 --> 00:45:49.010
by next to me i could hear everything the whole

00:45:49.010 --> 00:45:50.789
night they were chilling because they weren't

00:45:50.789 --> 00:45:52.909
in the major in a different major where there

00:45:52.909 --> 00:45:54.670
was no attendance and none of this class participation

00:45:54.670 --> 00:45:58.329
stuff and i was in the room studying And so it

00:45:58.329 --> 00:46:00.750
was tough. Like, I'll be honest, it wasn't easy.

00:46:01.210 --> 00:46:05.170
Some people who thought like me, who had the

00:46:05.170 --> 00:46:07.929
same issues as me, we became close, we supported

00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:09.769
each other. You know, you find your support group

00:46:09.769 --> 00:46:12.690
there. But just honestly, it just really gave

00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:16.110
me a very strong sense of work ethic. And like,

00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:19.750
another thing I'd link it to is one of my favorite

00:46:19.750 --> 00:46:24.670
footballers who isn't very talented, but is very

00:46:24.670 --> 00:46:29.219
famous. It's called Guy Neville. And he's a Manchester

00:46:29.219 --> 00:46:31.360
United player, which is the club I support as

00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:34.219
a football fan. He used to always say that his

00:46:34.219 --> 00:46:38.719
mindset was always to attack the day. And so

00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:42.059
his thing was, if you, for example, also, if

00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:45.500
you cut a yard in your training, over the course

00:46:45.500 --> 00:46:48.260
of the whole year, you've cut 365 yards in your

00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:52.280
training, you know. And it adds up. And the same

00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:53.800
thing, like Kobe Bryant, for example, used to

00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:56.769
say, if you train one person extra, every single

00:46:56.769 --> 00:47:00.010
day that other that's nothing but over the course

00:47:00.010 --> 00:47:02.389
of the year better than everyone else and so

00:47:02.389 --> 00:47:04.530
i think that's kind of what accounting and finance

00:47:04.530 --> 00:47:07.650
sort of not taught me but it led me to that direction

00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:11.349
and so i look to these sports personalities as

00:47:11.349 --> 00:47:13.610
hey like you know what they told me they're the

00:47:13.610 --> 00:47:15.909
they're doing this thing in their domain maybe

00:47:15.909 --> 00:47:19.309
i if i just work a little bit harder um i might

00:47:19.309 --> 00:47:21.949
be set apart so uh that's something that i wanted

00:47:21.949 --> 00:47:24.349
to share as well Great point, Ousmane. And it's

00:47:24.349 --> 00:47:28.010
the idea of showing up every day. Everyone is

00:47:28.010 --> 00:47:30.610
struggling. Everyone struggled in the past. And

00:47:30.610 --> 00:47:33.269
a lot of people will still struggle moving forward.

00:47:33.670 --> 00:47:37.190
So again, it's about showing up every day. It's

00:47:37.190 --> 00:47:40.090
about consistency and accepting the challenge

00:47:40.090 --> 00:47:42.849
and everything that comes your way. And it's

00:47:42.849 --> 00:47:45.269
all about using it as a learning opportunity.

00:47:45.849 --> 00:47:48.730
Because yes, it's tough. It's very challenging.

00:47:48.949 --> 00:47:52.139
It's nerve -breaking. Everything you can think

00:47:52.139 --> 00:47:56.079
of. Yeah. But don't you think it's even more

00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:59.739
challenging or tougher to not be able to choose

00:47:59.739 --> 00:48:02.019
what you want to do after your studies? You will

00:48:02.019 --> 00:48:05.099
discover it very soon, but Usman decided to not

00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:07.960
stay in finance, accounting, and he moved towards

00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:10.880
something else. Thanks to his behaviors, thanks

00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:14.900
to his work, everything led him there because

00:48:14.900 --> 00:48:18.460
he empowered himself. Great point as well. It's

00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:20.059
allowing me to choose what I want to choose.

00:48:21.110 --> 00:48:23.210
It's a good student, not accounting and finance,

00:48:23.289 --> 00:48:26.050
but generally overall for any major, any university.

00:48:27.329 --> 00:48:28.989
And that's something I wanted to touch upon as

00:48:28.989 --> 00:48:31.329
well, is just having different extracurriculars

00:48:31.329 --> 00:48:35.130
at university as well. Just as I was in the music

00:48:35.130 --> 00:48:38.230
society in my university, so a lot of playing

00:48:38.230 --> 00:48:40.989
music, organizing music events, just having the

00:48:40.989 --> 00:48:43.909
camaraderie, just having an organization, like

00:48:43.909 --> 00:48:46.170
a structure, there's a general secretary and

00:48:46.170 --> 00:48:49.079
everything is working through the year. seeing

00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:51.219
different people do different things we had like

00:48:51.219 --> 00:48:53.800
a entrepreneurial society in our university like

00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:56.579
i would always recommend people we did a bit

00:48:56.579 --> 00:48:59.519
of voluntary work in a few schools in the city

00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:02.860
as well i think just generally a good university

00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:05.480
student is one who who does go through his education

00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:07.960
regardless of the major has the right mindset

00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.039
but also takes part in these different experiences

00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.219
as well because it builds your personality as

00:49:13.219 --> 00:49:14.860
a whole i know that's not the question you asked

00:49:14.860 --> 00:49:18.760
but that is That is the answer I wanted to give.

00:49:19.019 --> 00:49:21.519
It's completely fine. So what can you tell us

00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:24.079
about your own experiences? What did you learn

00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:26.719
at the time? What are the takeaways you have

00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:29.579
looking back at them? And the other aspect of

00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:31.400
the extracurriculars I mentioned, like I was

00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:34.760
in the music society and I was a general member

00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:36.840
and then I eventually rose to the ranks in my

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.739
final year to become the general secretary of

00:49:39.739 --> 00:49:41.719
the society, which is like the president and

00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:44.460
the vice president and then myself. And at that

00:49:44.460 --> 00:49:47.469
time, we'd organize the largest music event of

00:49:47.469 --> 00:49:50.829
Pakistan. Not just in university, but generally

00:49:50.829 --> 00:49:56.150
as well, you know. And so I think just before

00:49:56.150 --> 00:49:58.369
you get a, I mean, obviously in universities,

00:49:58.369 --> 00:49:59.750
you do have internships and different things

00:49:59.750 --> 00:50:02.309
as well, part -time jobs, et cetera. But like,

00:50:02.329 --> 00:50:06.170
I think just doing this sort of work throughout

00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:08.909
the year as well, kind of helps build some sort

00:50:08.909 --> 00:50:13.050
of experience, perhaps that's the word I might

00:50:13.050 --> 00:50:16.190
use. that kind of potentially can help you when

00:50:16.190 --> 00:50:17.849
you're applying for jobs as well in the future,

00:50:17.909 --> 00:50:21.349
I think. It helps you understand structure, hierarchy,

00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:26.110
decision -making, how to go about doing certain

00:50:26.110 --> 00:50:30.030
things, which will all help you in your work

00:50:30.030 --> 00:50:32.590
life, whether it's a business or a job, whatever

00:50:32.590 --> 00:50:35.110
it is. And I think also, at the end of the day,

00:50:35.150 --> 00:50:36.909
it helps you have fun as well. Like, you know,

00:50:36.929 --> 00:50:39.349
I played music on a stage in front of a thousand

00:50:39.349 --> 00:50:41.369
people as well. I think when you're in university,

00:50:41.530 --> 00:50:43.150
I would recommend that you immerse yourself in

00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:45.750
it. And if you have a part -time job and you

00:50:45.750 --> 00:50:49.190
feel like you cannot find the time to join a

00:50:49.190 --> 00:50:52.489
society, sometimes you just need an hour a week.

00:50:52.630 --> 00:50:56.210
I know it seems like it can take way too much

00:50:56.210 --> 00:51:00.809
time, but think about it like this. If you give

00:51:00.809 --> 00:51:04.449
one hour of your time each week to a different

00:51:04.449 --> 00:51:07.909
position in different societies, you will discover

00:51:07.909 --> 00:51:12.539
what you like and don't like doing. And it will

00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:16.860
help you so much direct your next steps, your

00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:21.280
studies and further programs you want to do or

00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:25.900
join. Yeah, I think a lot of these things, like

00:51:25.900 --> 00:51:27.699
you said, taught me what I liked and didn't like.

00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:31.940
So it's really important. Can you tell us about

00:51:31.940 --> 00:51:35.320
your internship, your other experiences that

00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:38.099
you had during your studies? I did, I think,

00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:41.909
an eight -week internship. in pwc which is an

00:51:41.909 --> 00:51:46.269
accounting firm doing audit audit work basically

00:51:46.269 --> 00:51:49.070
like for those who don't know what audit work

00:51:49.070 --> 00:51:54.130
might be it's basically just assessing potential

00:51:54.130 --> 00:51:58.590
frauds to put it simply like scams in a person's

00:51:58.590 --> 00:52:01.730
you know in a business's finances and stuff you

00:52:01.730 --> 00:52:05.030
know money but honestly just the attitude and

00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:07.760
the kind of work that they were doing didn't

00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:09.800
really appeal to me at all. It sounded really

00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:12.760
interesting in theory when I was studying it.

00:52:12.980 --> 00:52:14.739
But when I did it in person, I was like, hey,

00:52:14.820 --> 00:52:18.539
this doesn't really look like it's fun. And so

00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:20.420
I think it's really important to do internships,

00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:23.599
like society experiences, extracurriculars, because

00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:25.119
it will help you figure out what you like and

00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:26.800
what you don't like. Because my second internship

00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:30.219
the next year was in Coca -Cola, you know, the

00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:33.960
beverage company. And in that company, I did

00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:37.829
like a seven -week stint. where it was in different

00:52:37.829 --> 00:52:41.550
departments like the sales sales operation hr

00:52:41.550 --> 00:52:45.070
um and different sort of projects so that kind

00:52:45.070 --> 00:52:47.349
of gave me a different experience and made me

00:52:47.349 --> 00:52:49.150
think okay this is what it is what it looks like

00:52:49.150 --> 00:52:52.369
so i think it's really important to to use that

00:52:52.369 --> 00:52:54.670
university time period like you have four years

00:52:54.670 --> 00:52:56.670
of undergraduate or three years or five years

00:52:56.670 --> 00:53:00.139
whatever to help you figure out A few things

00:53:00.139 --> 00:53:01.760
before you make it to the practical world, you

00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.239
know. So make sure you kind of maximize that

00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:06.519
time period doing things that might help you.

00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:11.719
So wrapping up on your student life, what can

00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:14.480
you share with us on what choice did you make?

00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.019
What after uni, what job did you decide to do

00:53:18.019 --> 00:53:21.860
and why? So interestingly, because I was in a

00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:24.480
business major, accounting and finance, everyone

00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:29.610
was just running after the first. corporate job

00:53:29.610 --> 00:53:34.150
I was very disillusioned and I joined actually

00:53:34.150 --> 00:53:39.530
NGO or not -for -profit organization with the

00:53:39.530 --> 00:53:44.050
government and it was a public health firm which

00:53:44.050 --> 00:53:47.889
basically does honestly just to summarize what

00:53:47.889 --> 00:53:52.050
it does is it it runs programs or like just helps

00:53:52.050 --> 00:53:57.769
people figure out health solutions for free The

00:53:57.769 --> 00:54:00.989
underprivileged people. And it does research

00:54:00.989 --> 00:54:02.789
in terms of what medicines work, what doesn't

00:54:02.789 --> 00:54:05.289
work, what methods work for treatment, what doesn't

00:54:05.289 --> 00:54:07.449
work. So basically like public health research

00:54:07.449 --> 00:54:10.389
firm. And I joined as a project manager. So I

00:54:10.389 --> 00:54:12.269
was responsible for tuberculosis. Believe it

00:54:12.269 --> 00:54:15.210
or not, I was responsible for a project for tuberculosis,

00:54:15.489 --> 00:54:18.809
which is a disease which not many countries have

00:54:18.809 --> 00:54:20.829
in the world. But Pakistan does. It's a very

00:54:20.829 --> 00:54:24.510
deadly disease. And I had never, I never, like

00:54:24.510 --> 00:54:27.699
my mother was a doctor. But I had never explored

00:54:27.699 --> 00:54:30.679
this in my life, you know. But what it did allow

00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:34.420
me actually to do and learn, A, was empathy because

00:54:34.420 --> 00:54:37.260
we wouldn't interact with patients who were suffering

00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:39.920
from or could potentially be a deadly disease,

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:42.800
right? So it was scary a bit as well, but it

00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:44.800
was also very, it made me more empathetic in

00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.699
terms of being more privileged, etc. But also

00:54:48.699 --> 00:54:52.510
it was a very good exposure to... Project management,

00:54:52.650 --> 00:54:55.469
which is the word that I was doing. So figuring

00:54:55.469 --> 00:54:59.070
out how to set up a plan for a project, how to

00:54:59.070 --> 00:55:03.869
define milestones, how to just set timelines,

00:55:03.989 --> 00:55:06.329
work with limited resources and that sort of

00:55:06.329 --> 00:55:10.010
stuff. So good experience. I think a very meaningful

00:55:10.010 --> 00:55:14.989
job where like a very fulfilling job as well

00:55:14.989 --> 00:55:19.119
in terms of social value. But yeah, that was

00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:23.000
my first job. I was very disillusioned. It also

00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:25.380
didn't pay that much money. And so eventually

00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:27.960
I had to move on because I wanted to make some

00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:30.980
money as well. But it's a sad truth. Sometimes

00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:35.920
the jobs which provide social value have provided

00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:39.699
less money than other jobs. But yeah. Yes, unfortunately

00:55:39.699 --> 00:55:44.309
in most of the NGOs. The pay is not that great,

00:55:44.429 --> 00:55:47.929
meaning that you could face a lot of challenges.

00:55:48.510 --> 00:55:51.250
But it takes me back to what I've mentioned in

00:55:51.250 --> 00:55:54.670
previous episodes, is that you can have your

00:55:54.670 --> 00:55:59.110
full -time job in another structure, or you can

00:55:59.110 --> 00:56:03.010
be an entrepreneur and volunteer. Volunteer your

00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:06.150
time as much as you can for any kind of missions

00:56:06.150 --> 00:56:09.329
that align with your purpose, what drives you,

00:56:09.469 --> 00:56:14.519
those conversations. our reminder that you don't

00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:18.500
have to you don't have to put yourself in a challenging

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:23.519
financial environment because you need purpose

00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:27.460
the purpose can be found beyond the doors of

00:56:27.460 --> 00:56:29.719
your work yeah and i do want to add though i

00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.480
think this is i'm a bit older now obviously and

00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:36.460
this is all the way back in 2015 i do think that

00:56:36.460 --> 00:56:40.250
nowadays there are more and more ways where you

00:56:40.250 --> 00:56:42.110
can create social impact, like you're saying.

00:56:42.489 --> 00:56:46.949
And now I think a lot of these, whatever, NGOs,

00:56:47.170 --> 00:56:49.869
companies, whatever it was, I think they also

00:56:49.869 --> 00:56:52.449
improved their pay structure as well. So I think

00:56:52.449 --> 00:56:57.130
in today's world, it's easier to work for these

00:56:57.130 --> 00:57:02.369
sort of cases and build that great social value

00:57:02.369 --> 00:57:05.489
and impact, but also not lose out, for example,

00:57:05.489 --> 00:57:09.130
on a good paycheck as well. Which is a good,

00:57:09.230 --> 00:57:11.289
which is an important thing people consider when

00:57:11.289 --> 00:57:14.369
they want to look for a job as well. And just

00:57:14.369 --> 00:57:17.989
an example, there's like, there's a few consultancies

00:57:17.989 --> 00:57:21.050
that I know like globally, which kind of help

00:57:21.050 --> 00:57:25.530
focus on developmental projects, right? I know,

00:57:25.530 --> 00:57:27.550
I know so many friends that work with the United

00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:31.909
Nations Development Agency as well. A lot of

00:57:31.909 --> 00:57:36.519
companies who work with like, I know so many

00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.320
of my friends worked in consultancies and companies

00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:42.219
which help build more schools and hospitals in

00:57:42.219 --> 00:57:48.000
Pakistan. And so there's way more ways now. And

00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:50.699
I would always encourage people, I think if you

00:57:50.699 --> 00:57:53.760
can, if you can volunteer, obviously that's one

00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:55.619
thing. If you can work there for a short while.

00:57:55.780 --> 00:57:57.980
But I would always recommend someone in their

00:57:57.980 --> 00:57:59.679
career that should spend some time working for

00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:02.360
these sort of cases. Just because it's important

00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:06.530
to give back as well. Agreed. And if you look

00:58:06.530 --> 00:58:08.230
at it, like, let's pretend that you're an accountant.

00:58:09.030 --> 00:58:12.489
You can give them time and you can share your

00:58:12.489 --> 00:58:16.230
skills with them. Sometimes these companies or

00:58:16.230 --> 00:58:18.789
these organizations, they need support in different

00:58:18.789 --> 00:58:21.670
ways. So you're 100 % right. You can volunteer

00:58:21.670 --> 00:58:25.070
as well. But even if it's an hour a week or hour

00:58:25.070 --> 00:58:26.769
every two weeks, you know, it's important time

00:58:26.769 --> 00:58:30.829
to them. So what did you do after that experience?

00:58:31.710 --> 00:58:35.190
Yeah, so after that experience, I joined this

00:58:35.190 --> 00:58:38.989
company called Telenor Pakistan. And Telenor

00:58:38.989 --> 00:58:43.550
is a telecommunications company. That's actually

00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:46.369
a Norwegian company. So it's basically Telecom

00:58:46.369 --> 00:58:52.550
Norway, which is Telenor. But it's a government

00:58:52.550 --> 00:58:55.889
telecom company in Norway. But in South Asia,

00:58:56.010 --> 00:58:58.989
so Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, and a couple

00:58:58.989 --> 00:59:01.530
of other places. They had a huge presence at

00:59:01.530 --> 00:59:04.969
that time. Not so much anymore, but at that time.

00:59:05.750 --> 00:59:08.530
The only drawback was, not a drawback, but one

00:59:08.530 --> 00:59:11.309
of the things was that their head office was

00:59:11.309 --> 00:59:14.070
in a different city to one where I was. So after,

00:59:14.110 --> 00:59:16.690
just for some context as well, after university,

00:59:16.949 --> 00:59:19.849
which was in Lahore, I went back and I worked

00:59:19.849 --> 00:59:22.369
in Karachi, which is my hometown. And I was at

00:59:22.369 --> 00:59:25.349
home with my family, right? But this company

00:59:25.349 --> 00:59:27.449
that I'm talking about, their head office was

00:59:27.449 --> 00:59:30.449
in another city called Islamabad. which is two

00:59:30.449 --> 00:59:33.889
hours by flight and by train, like 15 hours or

00:59:33.889 --> 00:59:39.010
whatever. And so the reason I switched there,

00:59:39.050 --> 00:59:41.329
to be honest, was, again, always wanted to push

00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:44.429
myself, right? And always wanted to kind of have

00:59:44.429 --> 00:59:47.289
the belief in myself. This was considered the

00:59:47.289 --> 00:59:50.550
best employer in Pakistan for three or four years

00:59:50.550 --> 00:59:54.369
running. And so I was like, you know what? If

00:59:54.369 --> 00:59:56.010
this is considered one of the best employers

00:59:56.010 --> 00:59:58.250
in Pakistan, and if I want to join the corporate

00:59:58.250 --> 01:00:00.349
world, This is where I want to start off with,

01:00:00.449 --> 01:00:04.349
you know. And so I applied. I had interviews

01:00:04.349 --> 01:00:06.349
for one role. Didn't work out. But then I had

01:00:06.349 --> 01:00:08.969
interviews for another role. It worked out. And

01:00:08.969 --> 01:00:13.110
so I actually ended up moving cities again. And

01:00:13.110 --> 01:00:15.769
I moved to Islamabad. And I'll tell you honestly

01:00:15.769 --> 01:00:18.329
again, when I moved, the first two, three nights

01:00:18.329 --> 01:00:22.010
were so tough. Because at least for university,

01:00:22.030 --> 01:00:24.829
my father came and dropped me. But for this one,

01:00:24.889 --> 01:00:29.409
I went alone. And Islamabad, the city that I'm

01:00:29.409 --> 01:00:32.130
talking about, is considered very much a dead

01:00:32.130 --> 01:00:34.809
city in terms of its night sort of life. So like

01:00:34.809 --> 01:00:38.110
9, 10 p .m., the whole city is sleeping. Whereas

01:00:38.110 --> 01:00:41.869
the city that I'm from, Karachi, 9, 10 p .m.

01:00:41.869 --> 01:00:45.210
is when the city comes alive. The city is dead

01:00:45.210 --> 01:00:48.150
at like 2 a .m. in Karachi. So very different

01:00:48.150 --> 01:00:51.650
change for me as well. Almost wanted to just

01:00:51.650 --> 01:00:56.090
quit and take a flight back. I think one thing

01:00:56.090 --> 01:00:57.550
I always tell everyone, the first two or three

01:00:57.550 --> 01:00:59.230
nights are the toughest. If you can just get

01:00:59.230 --> 01:01:01.610
through those, you'll be fine. But I joined there

01:01:01.610 --> 01:01:05.409
as a digital marketing officer. But the truth

01:01:05.409 --> 01:01:07.130
be told, just to summarize what I was doing,

01:01:07.309 --> 01:01:11.909
I was responsible for the company's website and

01:01:11.909 --> 01:01:14.889
app, mobile app. And so everything to do with

01:01:14.889 --> 01:01:16.829
the website and the app, which is basically any

01:01:16.829 --> 01:01:20.750
analytics, how we can grow the app, get more

01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:23.710
users, get more views, get more people to use

01:01:23.710 --> 01:01:28.440
the app. I'm sure everyone who's hearing this

01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.500
has a mobile phone package with their provider,

01:01:31.780 --> 01:01:34.000
whether it's Vodafone, Virgin Media, whatever.

01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:37.920
And so our goal was to bring more people into

01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:40.199
the e -commerce channel versus the traditional

01:01:40.199 --> 01:01:44.260
ways of subscribing. And just like the marketing

01:01:44.260 --> 01:01:47.980
as well, how can we improve our online marketing?

01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:51.980
And so everything was part of the work that I

01:01:51.980 --> 01:01:54.420
was doing with a few other people. which was

01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:57.500
my first exposure to tech. But yeah, that's the

01:01:57.500 --> 01:01:59.119
reason I wanted to move. It was considered the

01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:00.920
best employer. Like, you know what? I need to

01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:03.880
do it. You said something very interesting. So

01:02:03.880 --> 01:02:06.360
you said that first you apply, it didn't work.

01:02:06.500 --> 01:02:10.059
You applied a second time and it worked. What

01:02:10.059 --> 01:02:13.099
was your first reaction to that first rejection?

01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.559
So even till today, whenever I get any rejection,

01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:21.380
the first hour or the first 30 minutes, I'm really

01:02:21.380 --> 01:02:25.260
sad and upset. But then after that, I learned

01:02:25.260 --> 01:02:27.559
to move on really quickly. I think I've just

01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.539
built a lot of resilience in my personality.

01:02:30.860 --> 01:02:34.679
And I think it goes back to just some context.

01:02:35.179 --> 01:02:37.380
I had an older brother. I have an older brother,

01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:39.739
right? He would always tease me when we were

01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:43.460
younger. When we were in our teenage years or

01:02:43.460 --> 01:02:46.940
just school, he'd always tease me. And I think

01:02:46.940 --> 01:02:49.579
I just learned to build up that resilience over

01:02:49.579 --> 01:02:53.230
the years. Also, like... rejection is from interviews

01:02:53.230 --> 01:02:56.289
etc is something that when you then it happens

01:02:56.289 --> 01:02:59.690
a few times you realize it's just part and parcel

01:02:59.690 --> 01:03:02.829
of the process so the first hour or so pretty

01:03:02.829 --> 01:03:07.809
sad uh like you know thought i i had i had cleared

01:03:07.809 --> 01:03:10.889
it but didn't work uh but the second one worked

01:03:10.889 --> 01:03:13.510
so kind of i i've always had this mindset you

01:03:13.510 --> 01:03:14.989
know what this is just another learning experience

01:03:14.989 --> 01:03:18.659
if it didn't work out I learned something new.

01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:20.579
I at least learned what kind of questions they

01:03:20.579 --> 01:03:24.139
can ask, right? I learned that I can maybe improve

01:03:24.139 --> 01:03:27.480
some of my answers. So I always now take it as

01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.920
a learning curve. Rejection is a part of it.

01:03:31.860 --> 01:03:34.300
And I'm going to speak more about it, I think,

01:03:34.300 --> 01:03:36.840
with some of the other jobs as well. Because

01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:42.019
I do believe that those who try will have more

01:03:42.019 --> 01:03:44.920
rejections than acceptances. But those who don't

01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:47.579
try... We'll never know what they can achieve,

01:03:47.679 --> 01:03:50.860
right? So I think it's just that rejection is

01:03:50.860 --> 01:03:52.619
a part of the whole trying thing and succeeding

01:03:52.619 --> 01:03:55.800
thing. So two takeaways from what Usman just

01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:59.400
shared with us. First, you have to move on and

01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:02.059
you have to move on fast. It was not meant for

01:04:02.059 --> 01:04:05.840
you. You cannot just stay and blame the situation.

01:04:06.139 --> 01:04:08.760
You're just wasting your time. And the second

01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:10.820
thing is that this is a learning experience.

01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:14.119
Maybe you did not structure your question well.

01:04:14.539 --> 01:04:17.010
Maybe... Something was missing for the person

01:04:17.010 --> 01:04:20.590
to understand how a great fit you are. But it's

01:04:20.590 --> 01:04:23.530
fine. But it's fine. You're learning. Take notes

01:04:23.530 --> 01:04:26.010
from the question you were asked from your answers

01:04:26.010 --> 01:04:29.550
and think about how you can improve them before

01:04:29.550 --> 01:04:32.289
your next interview for your next job. Yeah,

01:04:32.329 --> 01:04:37.530
100%. And if I can point the listeners to something

01:04:37.530 --> 01:04:40.860
that really, really resonates with me. Roger

01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:43.539
Federer, who is a legendary tennis player, right?

01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:46.760
He gave a commencement speech a few years ago.

01:04:47.179 --> 01:04:51.000
I'd recommend people go watch it. He speaks about

01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:55.639
very similar concepts of how he lost, I think,

01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:59.440
40 % of the points in his career, but he won

01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:01.940
60 -70 % of the matches, right? And the whole

01:05:01.940 --> 01:05:06.840
idea is that you'll have to learn to move on

01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:11.460
quickly from losses or... points loss or rejections

01:05:11.460 --> 01:05:13.559
because the next thing matters then you know

01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:15.820
so i recommend folks listen to that it's really

01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:18.420
really inspiring again goes back to the importance

01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:20.800
of having these sort of sports personalities

01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.440
that's been a big part of my my life i do think

01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:26.280
that these sort of personalities can have a very

01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:29.500
positive impact thank you for sharing i'm sure

01:05:29.500 --> 01:05:31.980
there are countless learning from that speech

01:05:31.980 --> 01:05:35.349
and it's the perfect example It has to move to

01:05:35.349 --> 01:05:37.429
the next set and the next set and the next set.

01:05:37.550 --> 01:05:40.630
And if you lose continuously or if you have to

01:05:40.630 --> 01:05:43.250
step up your game, you don't have time. You don't

01:05:43.250 --> 01:05:45.750
have time to waste, to blame the situation, to

01:05:45.750 --> 01:05:49.230
pity yourself for all of this. You have to process

01:05:49.230 --> 01:05:53.710
it, obviously. But you have to go back for more.

01:05:54.369 --> 01:05:57.809
There's no time to dwell on any point lost. And

01:05:57.809 --> 01:06:01.150
you're telling me that, but we know how difficult

01:06:01.150 --> 01:06:04.150
it is to just move on. trying to process after

01:06:04.150 --> 01:06:08.170
you put so much work on the preparation on getting

01:06:08.170 --> 01:06:10.630
to understand the expectation of the interview

01:06:10.630 --> 01:06:13.670
getting to understand what the goal of the company

01:06:13.670 --> 01:06:19.769
was etc etc i know we both know how much work

01:06:19.769 --> 01:06:22.829
you put into this but we also know that as soon

01:06:22.829 --> 01:06:25.670
as you process it you have to go to the next

01:06:25.670 --> 01:06:29.750
one because if you didn't get that job it doesn't

01:06:30.219 --> 01:06:33.119
reflect on any of your capacities it reflects

01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:37.260
on probably your preparation or just that that

01:06:37.260 --> 01:06:40.400
the interviewer was not looking for someone with

01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:44.380
that set of skills at that time but maybe later

01:06:44.380 --> 01:06:48.739
on Guzman can you tell us about your next experience

01:06:48.739 --> 01:06:53.699
you joined Kareem right yep that's correct and

01:06:53.699 --> 01:06:57.940
so Kareem actually same reason I moved to Kareem

01:06:57.940 --> 01:07:00.599
as well Kareem Again, for those who don't know,

01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:03.400
it's a ride -hailing company from the Middle

01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:08.760
East, which was recently acquired by Uber a couple

01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:11.940
of years ago. And it's the first unicorn startup,

01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:14.420
which means it's the first billion -dollar startup

01:07:14.420 --> 01:07:15.960
in the Middle East, which is a big thing, right?

01:07:16.179 --> 01:07:19.599
But Kareem was massive in Pakistan. It was the

01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:23.119
first big, actually, just probably the first

01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:26.840
e -commerce platform, apart from maybe food delivery

01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:30.079
services. to really change or disrupt the Pakistani

01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:33.380
market, right? And so, interestingly enough,

01:07:33.539 --> 01:07:36.880
even though Karim was more present or longer,

01:07:37.019 --> 01:07:39.860
had been present longer in some Arab countries

01:07:39.860 --> 01:07:44.039
and the Middle East, North Africa before, the

01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:48.079
highest number of rides were in Pakistan, right?

01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:51.340
And so, it had taken Pakistan by storm, literally.

01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:56.449
And it opened up so much. for so much possibilities

01:07:56.449 --> 01:08:00.949
for women who found it unsafe to travel and that

01:08:00.949 --> 01:08:04.610
sort of stuff. But like, I wanted to test myself

01:08:04.610 --> 01:08:08.429
in a completely new environment, a startup environment.

01:08:08.769 --> 01:08:11.250
And I wanted to be a part of the Kareem journey,

01:08:11.469 --> 01:08:14.949
which is basically like revolutionizing Pakistan's

01:08:14.949 --> 01:08:18.609
transport side. So that was literally my primary

01:08:18.609 --> 01:08:21.189
motivation. You know what, Kareem is... getting

01:08:21.189 --> 01:08:23.850
bigger and bigger. It's impacting Pakistanis

01:08:23.850 --> 01:08:26.430
more and more. I need to be a part of this journey

01:08:26.430 --> 01:08:29.829
and push myself. That's how I joined Kareem.

01:08:29.949 --> 01:08:33.770
I joined Kareem as a sort of a growth hacker,

01:08:34.210 --> 01:08:37.770
digital marketing expert, demand growth person.

01:08:37.909 --> 01:08:42.189
So just to summarize what work that was, my job

01:08:42.189 --> 01:08:44.770
was to increase the revenue, to increase the

01:08:44.770 --> 01:08:49.500
number of rides. and make sure our marketing

01:08:49.500 --> 01:08:52.079
is done in a way that attracts more customers

01:08:52.079 --> 01:08:54.880
for the app, obviously, and for the ride. So

01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:58.300
just generally seeing the whole process in the

01:08:58.300 --> 01:09:02.500
app and marketing and how we can kind of find

01:09:02.500 --> 01:09:05.939
the right balance between the available riders

01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:09.539
and the available drivers, for example. So a

01:09:09.539 --> 01:09:13.000
lot of that stuff. It was a startup. I was only

01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:15.079
there three months, but it felt like a year.

01:09:15.529 --> 01:09:18.109
Because I probably worked like 12 hours every

01:09:18.109 --> 01:09:22.430
day. And they almost worked seven days a week.

01:09:23.569 --> 01:09:26.829
Luckily for me, I was very strict on working

01:09:26.829 --> 01:09:29.329
seven days a week. I said, you know what? There's

01:09:29.329 --> 01:09:35.470
no way I'm working on the seventh day. And that

01:09:35.470 --> 01:09:37.810
was a bit of an issue. But I held my boundaries.

01:09:38.329 --> 01:09:41.689
But yeah, that was Kareem. That was Kareem for

01:09:41.689 --> 01:09:45.590
me. Oh, that sounds quite intense. So you decided

01:09:45.590 --> 01:09:48.109
to move companies, right? Yeah, so actually I

01:09:48.109 --> 01:09:50.529
wasn't planning on it as such, but then I actually

01:09:50.529 --> 01:09:53.510
got a call from Meta slash Facebook. It was known

01:09:53.510 --> 01:09:58.569
as Facebook at the time. And that was for a role

01:09:58.569 --> 01:10:02.010
in Singapore. And I was in Karachi at this point.

01:10:02.109 --> 01:10:03.909
So I had actually come back from Islamabad to

01:10:03.909 --> 01:10:07.430
Karachi again. I had moved cities. After Tel

01:10:07.430 --> 01:10:09.750
Nor, I came to Karim. So Karim was in Karachi.

01:10:11.069 --> 01:10:14.109
Yet another city I moved in a year's time as

01:10:14.109 --> 01:10:17.810
well, a year and a half. And I was only literally

01:10:17.810 --> 01:10:20.829
in Karachi for four months. And now I'd said

01:10:20.829 --> 01:10:23.189
to myself, I'm not going to move again. I had

01:10:23.189 --> 01:10:25.390
moved way too much from Karachi to Lahore for

01:10:25.390 --> 01:10:28.010
university and every summer packing up everything

01:10:28.010 --> 01:10:29.890
and coming back because our student accommodation

01:10:29.890 --> 01:10:32.329
would change every year. So every year, every

01:10:32.329 --> 01:10:34.229
summer I had to pack up everything, come back

01:10:34.229 --> 01:10:37.090
to Karachi and take everything back for the new

01:10:37.090 --> 01:10:40.430
semester. Then I came after university, I came

01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:42.989
back to Karachi for my first job. Then I went

01:10:42.989 --> 01:10:45.949
to Islamabad for my tenor job. Then I came to

01:10:45.949 --> 01:10:48.510
Karachi for this job. And so when I come back

01:10:48.510 --> 01:10:50.609
to Kerala, you know, that's it. I'm done. I'm

01:10:50.609 --> 01:10:53.069
going to move. But then Facebook obviously called

01:10:53.069 --> 01:10:58.550
from Singapore. And at that time, I had no confidence.

01:10:59.130 --> 01:11:00.789
This was the first time in my life where I didn't

01:11:00.789 --> 01:11:02.149
have much confidence that I think I will succeed,

01:11:02.210 --> 01:11:05.229
by the way. Because it was very unheard of at

01:11:05.229 --> 01:11:08.590
that time for a Pakistani. to be hired directly

01:11:08.590 --> 01:11:11.810
from Pakistan with no foreign education. I had

01:11:11.810 --> 01:11:13.750
no foreign education. It was just Pakistan. Or

01:11:13.750 --> 01:11:16.090
no foreign experience. I'd only ever worked in

01:11:16.090 --> 01:11:20.470
Pakistan. And so it was very, very, very unheard

01:11:20.470 --> 01:11:21.989
of for a Pakistani to get the job like that.

01:11:22.310 --> 01:11:25.649
And so even though I had local confidence, I

01:11:25.649 --> 01:11:28.050
remember a conversation my dad and I had at the

01:11:28.050 --> 01:11:30.850
dinner table where we were like, let's just go

01:11:30.850 --> 01:11:33.689
ahead with the process. You know, it'll never

01:11:33.689 --> 01:11:37.449
work out, but I learned something new. But it

01:11:37.449 --> 01:11:39.329
did work out, obviously. And so I did move to

01:11:39.329 --> 01:11:45.109
Facebook and I moved to Singapore in 2017. And

01:11:45.109 --> 01:11:48.350
I also, so actually, the first night then was

01:11:48.350 --> 01:11:50.949
also difficult, even though I had to move to

01:11:50.949 --> 01:11:53.770
a new, and it was the most nervous I had also

01:11:53.770 --> 01:11:55.189
been because it was a new country altogether.

01:11:55.869 --> 01:11:59.409
But Singapore is amazing. Facebook as a company

01:11:59.409 --> 01:12:01.630
was amazing. The kind of support they provided

01:12:01.630 --> 01:12:05.079
me was amazing. So it made it much easier. If

01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:06.659
you want to know more about the role, I was there

01:12:06.659 --> 01:12:10.880
for four and a half years. I was in Singapore

01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:13.319
for three years. And then I moved to Dublin,

01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:15.659
Ireland, which is another country change for

01:12:15.659 --> 01:12:20.140
me. But I was still with Facebook in Dublin as

01:12:20.140 --> 01:12:23.420
well. But yeah, it's so much work, different

01:12:23.420 --> 01:12:25.939
type of thing. Like I did vendor management.

01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:30.239
I did like data analyst work. I did like program

01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:33.100
management work. I did a lot of mentorship, strategy

01:12:33.100 --> 01:12:39.050
work. process optimization, process creation,

01:12:39.489 --> 01:12:41.550
a lot of learning. I don't think I've ever learned

01:12:41.550 --> 01:12:44.989
more than that in that time period as well. After

01:12:44.989 --> 01:12:47.930
changing role and scope within that company,

01:12:48.069 --> 01:12:51.750
you moved to another tech company. Yeah, so right

01:12:51.750 --> 01:12:54.369
now I'm actually at Google. And so I mentioned

01:12:54.369 --> 01:12:58.630
from, I switched countries from Singapore to

01:12:58.630 --> 01:13:03.659
Dublin. Actually, I switched during COVID. So

01:13:03.659 --> 01:13:09.539
I moved to Dublin in 2020 with Facebook. And

01:13:09.539 --> 01:13:12.220
interestingly enough, at that time, by the way,

01:13:12.279 --> 01:13:15.060
I had changed roles as well. So I joined a new

01:13:15.060 --> 01:13:17.659
role in Dublin. And so I remember speaking to

01:13:17.659 --> 01:13:19.880
someone at that time who said there are three

01:13:19.880 --> 01:13:22.039
things you should never do together. You should

01:13:22.039 --> 01:13:23.739
never change safety of your country together.

01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:28.060
You should never change your role. And you should

01:13:28.060 --> 01:13:30.920
never change... I can't remember the third one

01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:33.369
actually, but it's a skip. having trouble remembering

01:13:33.369 --> 01:13:36.750
that but like the idea was keep constant or some

01:13:36.750 --> 01:13:39.949
some things constant so uh not everything gets

01:13:39.949 --> 01:13:43.430
you in the same time and so i remember i i changed

01:13:43.430 --> 01:13:46.170
countries and i changed jobs and like in the

01:13:46.170 --> 01:13:49.189
same company um into covering your team and it

01:13:49.189 --> 01:13:51.789
was so challenging moving to dublin with meta

01:13:51.789 --> 01:13:54.750
as a but obviously we got through it but um i

01:13:54.750 --> 01:13:57.470
was in dublin with meta or facebook for one and

01:13:57.470 --> 01:13:59.850
a half years and then i joined google in 2022

01:14:00.590 --> 01:14:03.729
And so I'm actually at Google right now. And

01:14:03.729 --> 01:14:06.449
my role right now is like a program manager in

01:14:06.449 --> 01:14:09.689
the regulation space. So there's this regulation

01:14:09.689 --> 01:14:11.890
called the DSA, which is the Digital Services

01:14:11.890 --> 01:14:16.470
Act in the European Union. And there's obviously

01:14:16.470 --> 01:14:18.670
different regulations in the world, like there's

01:14:18.670 --> 01:14:21.310
UK Online Safety Act, Australian regulations.

01:14:22.149 --> 01:14:26.770
So my team basically helps Google. My team helps.

01:14:27.770 --> 01:14:30.729
other teams prepare for these regulations to

01:14:30.729 --> 01:14:32.630
make sure they're following all the rules and

01:14:32.630 --> 01:14:36.229
regulations, that they have the right processes

01:14:36.229 --> 01:14:40.329
in place or the right ways to showcase compliance.

01:14:40.770 --> 01:14:43.130
Because if you don't follow the regulations,

01:14:43.329 --> 01:14:45.689
it's obviously a very, very major compliance

01:14:45.689 --> 01:14:48.489
issue. There'll be defiance, there'll be legal

01:14:48.489 --> 01:14:50.750
cases, et cetera. So I work in this team right

01:14:50.750 --> 01:14:53.229
now. So that's the kind of work that I'm doing.

01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:58.460
Usman, can you tell us why you chose those roles?

01:14:58.659 --> 01:15:01.840
What were your drivers to move from one company

01:15:01.840 --> 01:15:05.520
to another, from one area to another? I think

01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:08.300
you have 10 years of figuring out what kind of

01:15:08.300 --> 01:15:09.920
work you like and the things you want to do.

01:15:10.140 --> 01:15:12.680
And so I feel like I've spent these last 10 years,

01:15:12.699 --> 01:15:17.060
almost 10 years, figuring out what things I like

01:15:17.060 --> 01:15:20.500
to do and what I'm good at, what I enjoy doing,

01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:24.170
but also at the same time pushing myself. in

01:15:24.170 --> 01:15:27.369
ways that i know is possible perhaps in these

01:15:27.369 --> 01:15:30.310
first 10 12 13 years of my career because beyond

01:15:30.310 --> 01:15:33.529
that you start building a specialized route more

01:15:33.529 --> 01:15:37.090
often than not right and so i think for me um

01:15:37.090 --> 01:15:40.550
the big driver has been just pushing myself learning

01:15:40.550 --> 01:15:44.229
growing um trying different things as well um

01:15:44.229 --> 01:15:49.029
and just from digital marketing to like you know

01:15:49.029 --> 01:15:51.689
like that from from to this it was always a case

01:15:51.689 --> 01:15:55.050
of Can I do more or can I do something different?

01:15:55.130 --> 01:15:57.569
And what do I enjoy doing? So even though right

01:15:57.569 --> 01:16:01.189
now, perhaps I do still love my digital marketing

01:16:01.189 --> 01:16:04.470
experience and I really enjoyed that. Now I know

01:16:04.470 --> 01:16:06.390
maybe I want to build my career in something

01:16:06.390 --> 01:16:09.689
that's a bit different, you know. So sometimes

01:16:09.689 --> 01:16:11.609
it's a case of building your career and your

01:16:11.609 --> 01:16:14.270
skill set in something that you love to do. Sometimes

01:16:14.270 --> 01:16:16.149
it's something you built in something you like

01:16:16.149 --> 01:16:20.770
to do. In life, unfortunately, you don't always

01:16:20.770 --> 01:16:23.649
get to do what you love to do. But you also have

01:16:23.649 --> 01:16:25.529
the option sometimes, like you said, to choose

01:16:25.529 --> 01:16:28.670
from, because you've built that foundation, to

01:16:28.670 --> 01:16:30.270
choose between different things you might like

01:16:30.270 --> 01:16:34.310
doing. And now can you tell us a little bit more

01:16:34.310 --> 01:16:37.250
about your passion projects that you're doing

01:16:37.250 --> 01:16:41.369
on the side? So you're developing some mentoring

01:16:41.369 --> 01:16:44.210
and coaching. Can you tell us more about it?

01:16:44.449 --> 01:16:46.890
Thank you. So like I said, like right now, actually,

01:16:47.449 --> 01:16:50.310
I'm, apart from my work at Google, I'm trying

01:16:50.310 --> 01:16:54.390
to explore a new path for myself on the sides,

01:16:54.449 --> 01:16:57.310
which is in my core work, which is mentoring

01:16:57.310 --> 01:17:00.710
and career coaching and mentoring. And so I think

01:17:00.710 --> 01:17:06.770
it primarily is driven from the fact that I had

01:17:06.770 --> 01:17:09.470
one or two coaches and mentors throughout my

01:17:09.470 --> 01:17:12.699
life. I think the first one being my parents,

01:17:12.779 --> 01:17:14.800
like first two being my parents, particularly

01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:17.119
my dad from like a career perspective, but generally

01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:19.239
from a coaching perspective, both my parents

01:17:19.239 --> 01:17:22.979
as well. Like I mentioned before, even now I

01:17:22.979 --> 01:17:25.000
give him a call to ask him certain things, right?

01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:27.960
Just get his advice on certain things. And just

01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:30.640
even university as well, that was the first person

01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:32.779
I called when I wanted to maybe switch majors

01:17:32.779 --> 01:17:35.739
and he gave me advice there as well. Being in

01:17:35.739 --> 01:17:38.100
university as well and in my jobs as well, I

01:17:38.100 --> 01:17:43.520
realized that there's a lack of options for the

01:17:43.520 --> 01:17:46.260
younger generation to be able to stick to Sakhaman,

01:17:46.399 --> 01:17:49.279
who is perhaps relatable, who has gone through

01:17:49.279 --> 01:17:53.619
the journey or gone through the hard work. And

01:17:53.619 --> 01:17:56.899
when you don't have anyone to take advice from

01:17:56.899 --> 01:18:00.020
or mentorship or coaching from, sometimes, not

01:18:00.020 --> 01:18:02.779
always, you can end up making decisions that

01:18:02.779 --> 01:18:05.199
aren't very beneficial for you. Like I said,

01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:08.100
not always, sometimes. But if you have that person

01:18:08.100 --> 01:18:11.819
in your career or your early university days

01:18:11.819 --> 01:18:13.899
as well, they can guide you in a more meaningful

01:18:13.899 --> 01:18:16.659
way and maybe make your choices better for the

01:18:16.659 --> 01:18:20.060
future. And so I don't think I had that much

01:18:20.060 --> 01:18:25.659
of that sort of coach apart from my parents and

01:18:25.659 --> 01:18:28.159
then one manager that I had who's been really

01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:32.380
fantastic. One or two managers. But I realized

01:18:32.380 --> 01:18:34.779
it's so much more important for people to get

01:18:34.779 --> 01:18:39.119
like a consistent guidance in these sort of elements.

01:18:39.159 --> 01:18:41.680
So that's the kind of gap that I wanted to focus

01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:43.699
on, particularly in Pakistan. But I know for

01:18:43.699 --> 01:18:47.119
a fact that in a lot of countries which are coming

01:18:47.119 --> 01:18:52.300
up in the world, this is a key gap. And so just

01:18:52.300 --> 01:18:54.380
for some context as well, I work with two or

01:18:54.380 --> 01:18:56.560
three people directly in one -on -one capacity,

01:18:56.859 --> 01:18:59.739
helping them with maybe the career search, career

01:18:59.739 --> 01:19:03.100
journey. helping them kind of land the jobs they

01:19:03.100 --> 01:19:05.300
want. Right now, I'm working with a group of

01:19:05.300 --> 01:19:10.500
seven, sorry, young professionals as well in

01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:12.859
a group coaching format where I'm trying to guide

01:19:12.859 --> 01:19:15.920
them and work with them. I've also collaborated

01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:18.539
with two, like actually collaborated with my

01:19:18.539 --> 01:19:22.239
university loves, which we have given two sessions

01:19:22.239 --> 01:19:26.260
there as well to 100 plus audiences. I'm now

01:19:26.260 --> 01:19:29.300
trying to expand that. I'm actually... in touch

01:19:29.300 --> 01:19:32.760
with five more universities in Pakistan. I've

01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:36.739
also recently, and that's why, by the way, I

01:19:36.739 --> 01:19:39.020
don't know, people might be listening to this

01:19:39.020 --> 01:19:41.199
podcast for the first time and thinking, this

01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:43.260
is the first time I've spoken, but we've been

01:19:43.260 --> 01:19:45.680
speaking for a while now about the ideas that

01:19:45.680 --> 01:19:49.220
Yotra has had and just generally. And one of

01:19:49.220 --> 01:19:50.819
the things I'm exploring now as well is speaking

01:19:50.819 --> 01:19:53.600
at schools as well, high schools. Because I feel

01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:56.460
like, like you said before as well, a lot of

01:19:56.460 --> 01:19:59.800
the foundation starts very early. I'm not saying

01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:02.439
you look for a job that early, but what happens

01:20:02.439 --> 01:20:05.000
is sometimes you build that foundation and there's

01:20:05.000 --> 01:20:06.920
certain ideas that you have about your career

01:20:06.920 --> 01:20:10.720
or certain myths that you might have that a certain

01:20:10.720 --> 01:20:13.260
inspiration that you might need that might be

01:20:13.260 --> 01:20:15.000
possible at the school level as well, high school

01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:17.119
level. So right now, I'm actually trying to collaborate

01:20:17.119 --> 01:20:21.100
with high schools in Pakistan, trying to go speak

01:20:21.100 --> 01:20:24.060
with the students there, have some virtual sessions

01:20:24.060 --> 01:20:26.979
and maybe in -person sessions. Yeah, that's the

01:20:26.979 --> 01:20:29.380
focus that I've been having, kind of help or

01:20:29.380 --> 01:20:34.439
guide more people and more students, more early

01:20:34.439 --> 01:20:37.960
young professionals as well, just in a way where

01:20:37.960 --> 01:20:41.279
if they have certain ambitions or even if they're

01:20:41.279 --> 01:20:45.520
so early in their journey in school where they

01:20:45.520 --> 01:20:47.260
don't have any ambition because they're just

01:20:47.260 --> 01:20:49.500
so young, I'm trying to instill that sort of

01:20:49.500 --> 01:20:52.720
ambition in them as well. But I don't know if

01:20:52.720 --> 01:20:55.720
anyone's interested, but if your school or university...

01:20:56.159 --> 01:20:58.899
or you might be interested, feel free to go to

01:20:58.899 --> 01:21:01.699
my LinkedIn and go to, you know, send me a request,

01:21:01.840 --> 01:21:05.380
view my services there. I'd love to expand and

01:21:05.380 --> 01:21:08.920
speak with schools all over the world if I can,

01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:10.840
you know, wherever there's a need. But yeah,

01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:14.020
that's what I've been doing. I will share Usman's

01:21:14.020 --> 01:21:16.380
contacts within the description of this podcast

01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:19.279
and within social media so that you can find

01:21:19.279 --> 01:21:23.239
and reach out to him. mentors and coaches can

01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:26.279
change your path, making you understand your

01:21:26.279 --> 01:21:29.619
capabilities, making you understand what's out

01:21:29.619 --> 01:21:33.300
there, the opportunities out there, and how it

01:21:33.300 --> 01:21:35.779
could be an opportunity for you. So if you're

01:21:35.779 --> 01:21:37.920
just slightly curious, please don't hesitate

01:21:37.920 --> 01:21:41.380
to reach out to Usman. Thank you. You shared

01:21:41.380 --> 01:21:44.319
countless advice, but do you have any last advice

01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:47.079
for our listeners? No, yeah, no, great conversation

01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:49.260
as well. Thank you so much. I think, like you

01:21:49.260 --> 01:21:51.340
mentioned, I've been throwing out advice in the

01:21:51.340 --> 01:21:53.960
whole session, the whole podcast, but I think

01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:57.600
one last advice that I want to give to the listeners

01:21:57.600 --> 01:22:02.979
is to trust yourself, have the belief in yourself.

01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:10.079
If, unfortunately, no one else has the confidence

01:22:10.079 --> 01:22:14.960
in you, you should trust yourself. I genuinely

01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:18.300
believe every one of us has that sort of capacity

01:22:18.300 --> 01:22:23.380
or that sort of talent or attitude. And I'm not

01:22:23.380 --> 01:22:25.359
saying everyone has to have the same exact sort

01:22:25.359 --> 01:22:28.579
of route in their career or mindset, but whatever

01:22:28.579 --> 01:22:30.380
it is that you're interested in. I have a friend

01:22:30.380 --> 01:22:34.159
who's a chef, right? And they found their calling,

01:22:34.239 --> 01:22:38.199
but I'm just saying that you need to be able

01:22:38.199 --> 01:22:43.079
to have that self -belief. But self -belief also

01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:48.859
does not mean that you build an ego. Self -belief

01:22:48.859 --> 01:22:52.479
is more of a case where you try and push yourself

01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:55.039
as much as you can in certain areas that you're

01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:57.960
interested in and learning new things. But at

01:22:57.960 --> 01:23:01.020
the same time, you are able to reflect on your

01:23:01.020 --> 01:23:03.600
strengths and weaknesses and know what's good

01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:05.279
for you and what's bad for you. And so I think

01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:08.039
anyone listening right now, you are good enough.

01:23:08.180 --> 01:23:11.750
You have the capabilities. You have the... You

01:23:11.750 --> 01:23:15.329
can have the drive within you. Just learn to

01:23:15.329 --> 01:23:17.670
understand what's good for you, bad for you,

01:23:17.689 --> 01:23:20.430
what your strengths and weaknesses are. And if

01:23:20.430 --> 01:23:21.750
no one's believing in you, believe in yourself.

01:23:21.989 --> 01:23:25.829
So that's my last advice to people. You are able

01:23:25.829 --> 01:23:28.890
to make things happen for yourself. Thank you

01:23:28.890 --> 01:23:31.029
so much, Usman. Thank you for all the advice

01:23:31.029 --> 01:23:33.310
you shared with us today. Awesome. Thank you

01:23:33.310 --> 01:23:38.909
so much. And thank you for joining us today.

01:23:39.029 --> 01:23:41.710
And don't forget to share your feedback wherever

01:23:41.710 --> 01:23:45.289
you can and follow us wherever you can as well.

01:23:45.449 --> 01:23:46.409
See you next week.