WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to And You, How Did You Make

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It, the podcast in which we explore each step

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that has built a career path of various professionals

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through the discovery of their habits, passions,

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and interests over the last few decades. I'm

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Yusra, your host, and today we meet Laurens. Laurens

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is from Belgium and currently lives in London.

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Laurens worked in tech and now for a hedge fund,

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but he actually studied chemical engineering.

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Intriguing, right? What is inspiring about Laurens'

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path is his drive. Studying engineering is difficult?

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Okay, I'll go for it. Need to find a job? Okay,

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let me apply everywhere. Yes, everywhere. Even

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if it requires a visa, let me try it. Laurens

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does not only walk you through his journey, he

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inspires you to follow his bold steps. Let's

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learn from him. Hello, Laurens, and welcome to

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the podcast. Tell us a little bit about you.

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Thank you. Very happy to be here. I think we

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were speaking before I mentioned I really enjoy

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listening to podcasts, so it's really fun to

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be on one. My name is Laurence. I am from Belgium.

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Originally, I lived there for most of my life.

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But as I started my first job, I moved to a different

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country. While I was studying, I also did a year

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abroad. My background is in engineering, but

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I've done a little bit of everything in my professional

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career. ranging from consulting to big tech and

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now working at hedge funds. A few curveballs

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there, but I've learned a lot along the road

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and I hope to share some of that today. Thank

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you, Laurent. And before starting talking about

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your whole life, let's start with your definition

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of success. It's a hard question to answer. It

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will be a little bit different for everyone.

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I think for me personally, it's been balancing

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sort of short -term happiness with long -term

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happiness. So I think people tend to veer one

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way or the other where they either only care

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about how they feel right now and they optimize

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for the short term. And some people, they push

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everything on the long term. They work very,

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very long hours. They work very hard. And there

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is merit in both of them. And it's trying to

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balance those things. I think it's very difficult.

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And it's something that I'm actively trying to

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do where I try to... learn a lot. So I try to

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do difficult things. But at the same time, I

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am very aware that, you know, I am 30 at the

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moment. I should also enjoy my life, right? So

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can I balance a challenging career with also

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being happy in the moment? I think for me, that

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is sort of what I've been working towards the

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past few years. And yeah, I think balancing that

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well for me is a success. Life is a constant

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challenge asking you, why do you want to prioritize?

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Yeah, I think we were sort of told that When

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you come out of college, you should just grind.

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Like, especially if you choose a career in, let's

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say, finance, something like investment banking

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is known to have very excruciating hours. Oh,

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you know, you're young, you have the energy,

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you can just grind. And before you realize you're

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40, you're old and you haven't enjoyed the last

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20 years of your life. So I think there is a

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merit in applying yourself. But I think, yeah,

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balancing is not something people tell you to

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do. So it's something that I try to do and I've

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become more aware of over the past few years.

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Let's now go back in time and discuss your early

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teenage years, your middle school years. What

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kind of student were you? What interests did

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you have? Any passions? Any extracurricular activities?

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What can you share with us? I think in middle

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school, I was quite different from how I am now.

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I think I lived off of my impulses a little bit.

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much more, I think, as most kids do. And I was

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very, very energetic. I really liked certain

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subjects like maths, but I struggled to sort

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of sit down and just listen to a teacher teach

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classes much more so than I did later on in life.

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So I think in middle school, it was a little

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bit chaotic still. I think I was fortunate enough

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to have sort of... a good way with maths and

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sciences, which helped me along the way. But

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it's something that trickled over into high school

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as well, right up until the moment for me until

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I reached university, which is a different animal

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altogether, right? So I think what I enjoyed

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was not so much the languages, but much more

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actually logical thinking. I found myself, that's

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one of the few courses where I could really,

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yeah, get lost in. Do you remember why you were

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more interested in math and logical classes rather

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than others? It's hard to say why. I just, I

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really like the aspect of finding, I guess it's

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either true or false, right? It's binary, whereas

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other things are a bit more, yeah, opaque, like

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a little bit more murky. You don't know. Really,

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what is the right answer for us? It's very straightforward

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and it's logical. And I think that's something

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I've always enjoyed, especially later down life

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when I did engineering. It's something I really

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enjoy doing. But yeah, we'll come back to that

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later. What about your extracurricular activities?

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What were you doing after school or on weekends?

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Yeah, I think this is actually, that's a good

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point. I did... a really, really wide range of

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extracurriculars. I think every day I had almost

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two hobbies. So I did football, tennis, judo,

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drawing, scouts. And then on the weekends, I

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would often do like tournaments as well. So I

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came home from school and I was out all day after,

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which really helped. I really think this is great

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to just, I guess, one, just expose your brain

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to different environments. And you don't have

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to do it just when you're 12. I think. Having

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these hobbies that sort of prickle like different

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parts of your brain helps you at all stages.

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I actually still try to do new things at this

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day and age. Something I did a little bit less

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when I went to uni. I think that's normal, but

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I'm trying to pick that back up. Do you remember

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what you liked doing the most? And do you have

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any takeaways from your school years? What do

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you think stick with you during all those years?

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Values, I'm not too... I think maybe the Scouts,

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yes. I think it helps you. Yeah, I mean, you

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have this concept of like patrouille. Patrouille,

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I'm not sure how you say it in French. Maybe

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it's very similar. But you get opportunities

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to show leadership from a young age, right? So

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you become responsible for your small team, even

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at the young age of, let's say, 12 or 13. And

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it's the first time you come in contact with

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these concepts, whereas if you don't do that...

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You would never, ever do this until you work.

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So I think some stuff like that, also being in

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nature and doing stuff hands -on, I think is

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always a good balance with, I think, today, this

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day and age. I mean, everything's very digital,

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right? So I think balancing those things out

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is always good. Yeah, in terms of values as well,

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I think you meet people at the Scouts also from

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all walks of life. So you're not really grouped

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with just people from your neighborhoods. I mean,

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like from your school doing the same courses

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as you. I think it's a great way to just get

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in touch with different people. Yes, and you

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create a community for yourself, which could

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be life -changing for teenagers who haven't managed

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to find their communities within the school doors.

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What about sports? I know at that age, you don't

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think about takeaways and values you're learning.

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And we both know how sports values can take you

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far in life. Anything you can share with us?

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That's a good point. I mean, I was always very

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competitive. And I think one thing that's, I

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mean, if you play tennis every week and you go

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to competition, I think what you learn is this

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again, this like you learn discipline, practicing

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every week to have long -term benefits. And that's

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something that comes back later as well. Unconsciously,

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that's been built in that if you practice for

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many years, you'll become better. You'll see

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the results, but you need to put in hours. Yeah.

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Learning discipline, consistency, and the idea

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of progressing through a long period of time.

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at such a young age is incredible. If you're

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listening to us and you're not sure about signing

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up to a new sport, just go for it. Just imagine

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how you'll be preparing yourself for the new

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challenges that life will bring you. And understanding

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that nothing comes easy, but if you do put the

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work, you do put the action, you will move closer

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to where you want to be and where you want to

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go. Can you tell us more about your late teenage

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years, high school years? Were you still interested

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in the same subjects? Yeah, my high school years,

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I think, were similar to my middle school years.

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To be honest, not too much changed. I think I

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was exposed to more courses. I really liked history,

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aside from maths and sciences. I, for a long

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time, was considering studying history instead

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of chemical engineering. The reason I didn't

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is because I was thinking a little bit more logically

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again. It was like, okay, well, I really enjoy

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his tribute. Does that mean it has to be my career?

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I think I landed on the ladder, right? It doesn't

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need to be my career. I think it's also maybe

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something people don't, people always say, follow

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your dreams. I don't want to say don't, but I'm

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also thinking just because you enjoy a subject

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doesn't mean you want to do that as a career.

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So you should really envisage like, okay. If

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I like exercising, does that mean I would enjoy

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being a PT or would that mean I would enjoy being

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a fitness instructor? Not necessarily. So always

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try to think one step further. And I think if

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you can combine something you're really passionate

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about with your job, that's perfect. But I think

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you should always also try to lean into your

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strengths because that often is things you like.

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Like I like mathematical thinking. So I do a

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job where I do that type of thinking. So I might

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not care about the industry, but I care about...

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how I'm thinking day to day. Yeah, I think other

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than that, high school, again, I felt quite grateful

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again. I wasn't too stressed out during my high

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school years. I figured that I would probably

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go into engineering, probably because I wanted

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to prove something. It was known as a difficult.

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difficult degree. And I think at that age, everyone's

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a little bit insecure. So was I. And I wanted

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to prove something to the world like I can do

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it. I'm not saying that's the best way to go

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about choosing your degree, but I'm quite happy

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I did it because it was something hard. I tried

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to do something hard and I shouldn't be afraid

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to do that. You should always try. You can always

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do something else after. So I think it was sort

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of setting me up for that. I didn't really get

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too many Too much advice on what to do. Maybe

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a gentle message from my parents. But to be honest,

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it was my own decision at the end of the day.

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And I was simply going with what am I good at?

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Should I do that? And I knew with engineering

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afterwards, you can do many different things.

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You don't have to be an engineer. So I think

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maybe a risk -averse approach for myself, whereas

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I pick something that later on I can still change

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my mind. This is a very interesting approach.

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Not thinking about the industry, but the work

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you will be delivering, meaning what the job

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will ask from you, what your manager will ask

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from you. I know it's so far away from your reality,

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but in your case, being able to use the logical

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thinking exercise that you like. And you know

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what? Nothing or no one will stop you from changing

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your mind down the line. We actually are both

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surrounded by people who are now part -time teachers

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in school, university, or sport classes, actually.

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What we're missing growing up is to hear that

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you will be able to do different things if you're

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interested in different things. Lawrence, you

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were mentioning how you were insecure when you

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were younger. How do you build the confidence

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to still go for what is labeled as difficult

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studies? My grades were, I would say, decent.

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They weren't anything special. My grades in high

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school, the thing is, again, in Belgium, you

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don't need to have great grades to get into the

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top university. You can just enroll in it. And

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the way they do it is they make the exams quite

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hard. So at the end of the day, only half the

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people go through the second year, etc. So in

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high school, I never really had to apply myself

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too much. So my grades were decent, but I knew

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there was a lot more in there. But to be honest,

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I was not sure. I was a bit scared because everybody

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tells you, even teachers tell you, like, I'm

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not sure it's for you. And it sort of made me

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want to prove it even more. I wouldn't say I

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was super confident at all. I think confidence,

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for me at least, came from doing it and knowing

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like, okay, well, I studied hard for it and I

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was able to do it. But for me, it was a huge

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shock from high school to uni because I went

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from not studying or barely studying at all to

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like now having zero supervision and having to

00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:58.019
prove myself, right? So I don't recommend you

00:12:58.019 --> 00:13:00.000
do that. I think it's better to learn at a younger

00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.120
age, like some discipline, because motivation

00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.620
will come and go, right? You might be super motivated

00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:07.360
one day, but discipline is something that takes

00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.120
a long time to build. So I was definitely a bit

00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.350
caught out at first. I made it through. But I

00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:15.809
was not set up for success the same way as some

00:13:15.809 --> 00:13:18.990
of my peers were that had been like more regimented

00:13:18.990 --> 00:13:22.309
in high school. And that's something that I had

00:13:22.309 --> 00:13:26.090
to learn. But again, the confidence part is something

00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:29.429
I really built. I wouldn't feel bad if you're

00:13:29.429 --> 00:13:32.649
not confident. Let's say you're 17, 18. Nobody's

00:13:32.649 --> 00:13:35.389
really confident. People are faking or most people

00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.409
are faking at least. So confidence, you build

00:13:39.409 --> 00:13:41.870
it yourself and you need to also like allow yourself.

00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:44.620
to congratulate yourself and say like yeah i

00:13:44.620 --> 00:13:47.120
did it like let your confidence build over time

00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.279
just to pick up on something that you said you

00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.279
said that your peers had more discipline than

00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:54.159
you did but don't you think that your upbringing

00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:57.460
did prepare you for this don't you think you

00:13:57.460 --> 00:13:59.840
still have strong foundations your discipline

00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:04.259
was built thanks to all the sports and scouts

00:14:04.259 --> 00:14:06.159
and everything that you were doing when you were

00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.059
younger right Yeah, it's hard to say, I guess.

00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:12.059
I think the discipline was definitely there.

00:14:12.220 --> 00:14:17.159
I think the discipline for me was that I enjoyed

00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:20.000
doing hard things or at least trying to accomplish

00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.559
hard things. And so I didn't mind like if something

00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:26.659
is very difficult to spend a lot of time on it

00:14:26.659 --> 00:14:30.179
over and over and not knowing that it might not

00:14:30.179 --> 00:14:34.519
pay off. I think, yeah. I think trying many different

00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.860
things allows me to be a little bit more open

00:14:36.860 --> 00:14:41.320
to that. From a young age, if you do music, drawing,

00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:44.360
scouts, and different sports, it will be less

00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:46.519
scary to, again, do something new. It's maybe

00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:48.179
something that helped me as well down the line

00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:52.340
to move abroad. But that being said, you need

00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:55.399
to be, I guess, you just need to take the leap,

00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.179
I think, and shut off your brain and just go

00:14:58.179 --> 00:15:02.679
for it, I think. There is a million things telling

00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.000
you don't do it. Say, pick the safe option. But

00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:06.600
sometimes, especially if you're young, I think

00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.879
just do it. Like, just try hard stuff. That's

00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.820
one thing I would say. And like, you can always,

00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:16.139
you're not going to, I mean, it's not going to

00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:20.820
ruin your life, right? So I think that we over...

00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.120
you over index for like what could go what could

00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:27.960
happen if it doesn't work out rather than sorry

00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.799
for um failing instead of like well actually

00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:33.220
if it doesn't work out nothing really happens

00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:36.299
like it's fine so yeah i think that also helps

00:15:36.299 --> 00:15:39.340
with confidence also on the work floor knowing

00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:42.539
that the worst that can happen isn't that bad

00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.220
like it really really is and so just go for it

00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:48.940
couldn't agree more there are two takeaways here

00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:53.039
first Try new activities as soon as possible

00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:56.860
because then, as Lawrence, you would be able

00:15:56.860 --> 00:16:00.740
to just won't mind spending a lot of time working

00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:04.379
on hard things, even if it doesn't pay off, and

00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:09.139
accepting failures as learnings. And the second

00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:12.019
point is seeing everything as opportunities,

00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:17.019
not focusing on what could go wrong. And did

00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:19.519
you receive any crucial advice during your teenage

00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:23.000
years? Did you have any mentor at that time?

00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:26.379
I would say overall it's something I missed a

00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:30.279
little bit. I will say that having a mentor should

00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.039
be a two -way street. You should also actively

00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.299
look for it. But to be honest, I was not very

00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:37.039
proactive with it. I wasn't lucky enough to have

00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.919
someone that I was like, okay, this person is

00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.639
something that I can emulate myself after. I

00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.580
think that would have helped me a lot. So I think

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:48.379
it's an advice I would give to people. thinking

00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:50.980
of a mentor think about some people that are

00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:53.879
having a career or have a life that you aspire

00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.059
and just which you'd be surprised how willing

00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.279
people are to help i would be more than willing

00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.559
to help someone reach out to me so um i think

00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.820
that's one part there was one person i think

00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:05.680
that helped me decide on my degree and it's again

00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.900
someone who told me like oh he did engineering

00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:11.140
as well and he said just try it like honestly

00:17:11.140 --> 00:17:13.559
you'd be surprised how far you can make it and

00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.450
um He said also like, what's the worst that can

00:17:16.450 --> 00:17:18.150
happen? And that sort of gave me the final push

00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:21.450
to say like, okay, let's just go for it. And

00:17:21.450 --> 00:17:23.829
now you're asking yourself, how can I find a

00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:28.569
mentor? And that's the million euro question.

00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:31.849
I think it really depends on your situation.

00:17:33.170 --> 00:17:35.990
Sometimes you can find those people around you

00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:38.690
in a circle. It can be a family member, a fan

00:17:38.690 --> 00:17:41.730
of a family member, or it gets a little bit more

00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:44.410
challenging. But you can ask advice through teachers.

00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:48.910
And if they are not helpful for some reason,

00:17:49.130 --> 00:17:52.609
try to reach out to older students. And if you

00:17:52.609 --> 00:17:57.089
can't find someone, watching content online on

00:17:57.089 --> 00:18:00.670
YouTube, TikTok can help already. I do believe

00:18:00.670 --> 00:18:03.690
it's easier to find a mentor when you get to

00:18:03.690 --> 00:18:07.470
uni. There are more opportunities there. And

00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:10.170
let's deep dive into your uni years, Laurence.

00:18:11.450 --> 00:18:13.250
How did you make it to your engineering program?

00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:16.549
You said you didn't need to pass a test to get

00:18:16.549 --> 00:18:19.250
in, but the program is challenging enough to

00:18:19.250 --> 00:18:21.329
make its own selection throughout the years,

00:18:21.410 --> 00:18:25.750
right? You can kind of just rock up almost, but

00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:28.869
you can very quickly tell that university tries

00:18:28.869 --> 00:18:34.190
to, yeah, call almost the people who aren't serious

00:18:34.190 --> 00:18:36.750
or who are not going to be right for the course.

00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:39.880
So it had a really reputation of... Being like,

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:42.039
okay, it's going to be very hard to pass the

00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.160
exams, et cetera. So I think I showed up, it

00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:47.680
was a little bit of a shock because it was just

00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.680
pure like symbols. There was no text, right?

00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.779
It was very math heavy. And for me, it taught

00:18:53.779 --> 00:19:00.240
me to sort of sit on your own and just work through

00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.660
problems slowly on your own time. You can go

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:06.920
a long way and gave me a lot of confidence afterwards

00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.619
knowing that you can throw anything at me. I'll

00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:11.539
be able to make it through because I was able

00:19:11.539 --> 00:19:14.440
to do XYZ in engineering. And it really, really

00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.700
helped with my confidence levels, I think, being

00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:20.700
successful throughout that. But also, it's not

00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:24.440
for everyone. I think it was a very theoretical

00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.680
degree that I did. You also have more applied

00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.779
degrees. So a bunch of people did that as well,

00:19:28.900 --> 00:19:31.759
which I think is also the right way to do it.

00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:33.700
I think the theoretical aspect of it, I really

00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:36.660
enjoy it. I think it's just something that aligns

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:40.839
to my thinking. And I think overall, the engineering

00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.220
years, I think for me, it was setting me up down

00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:48.460
the line in terms of taking very big problems,

00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:50.140
breaking them down. It's something you often

00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:54.119
need to do for exams and just being hyper -logical

00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.619
in your reasoning. And that's something I use

00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.279
to this day. And it makes you not afraid to ask

00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:00.099
questions when you're tackling a project, et

00:20:00.099 --> 00:20:01.859
cetera, because you're just following a logical

00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:06.720
reasoning. It was not easy. But I'm very, very

00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.200
happy I did it. Even though I'm not an engineer

00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.140
today, I'm very happy I did it. So the first

00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:13.619
year and a half is general engineering. And then

00:20:13.619 --> 00:20:16.259
you can sort of choose your subjects after that.

00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:18.579
I kind of, again, went with the ones that I was

00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:20.759
getting the best grades in, which was chemistry.

00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:23.859
So I ended up doing chemical engineering. But

00:20:23.859 --> 00:20:26.299
I very quickly realized, although I really enjoyed

00:20:26.299 --> 00:20:30.539
studying it, I did a few projects with a chemical

00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:32.380
company, et cetera, that you have to do also

00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:34.920
in your master's program. What you do with some

00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:36.660
hands -on engineering projects, and I really

00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:39.240
didn't enjoy those. I think both the environment

00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:43.680
that you're in was a bit stuffy, not very innovative.

00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.119
Those companies do exist. I'm not saying they

00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.339
don't. But secondly, I think you're not, or you're

00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:52.519
often not, unless you're doing research or very

00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.680
highly technological pieces, you're not doing

00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.259
the stuff you're learning in the classroom. You're

00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:00.259
doing more basic stuff, at least the stuff that

00:21:00.259 --> 00:21:03.769
I was doing. So for me, it was not really a fit.

00:21:03.809 --> 00:21:07.089
I already knew that. But knowing that in engineering,

00:21:07.349 --> 00:21:09.230
I was like probably going to explore other stuff.

00:21:10.089 --> 00:21:14.450
So did you hear that? First, Laurens approaches

00:21:14.450 --> 00:21:18.430
very clear. He chose the path where he had the

00:21:18.430 --> 00:21:21.170
best grades. And secondly, he quickly realized,

00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:24.329
thanks to our hands -on experience, that it was

00:21:24.329 --> 00:21:27.569
not the thing that he enjoyed because of the

00:21:27.569 --> 00:21:30.839
specific experiences that he had. Lawrence, can

00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:35.359
you explain us your studying approach? How did

00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.180
you manage to have those grades? Were you studying

00:21:38.180 --> 00:21:41.900
hard after each day, week? What was your strategy?

00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:45.920
So what my strategy was is I didn't find the

00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.019
classes useful at all because the subject matter

00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:52.259
was often too dense to understand, especially

00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:54.000
engineering. And to be honest, the professors

00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.859
weren't great at explaining what they were doing.

00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:58.980
So I often, especially in the first year, skipped

00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:02.829
class. and would digest the material on my own.

00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:04.650
Now, I'm not saying I recommend that. I think

00:22:04.650 --> 00:22:06.609
a lot of, if you have a good professor, they

00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:09.150
can be very helpful. But it's just also what

00:22:09.150 --> 00:22:11.309
I learned I was good at, at just digesting materials

00:22:11.309 --> 00:22:15.890
on my own. So I would tend to backload a lot

00:22:15.890 --> 00:22:18.230
of the work until, like, we just have one exam

00:22:18.230 --> 00:22:20.829
per semester, that's it. So for the last two

00:22:20.829 --> 00:22:22.549
months, I would just lock myself up and just

00:22:22.549 --> 00:22:25.609
study from morning till evening. And just get

00:22:25.609 --> 00:22:27.589
through it. I did a little bit of work, obviously,

00:22:27.589 --> 00:22:30.849
throughout the year. But I would recommend to

00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:34.250
obviously spread it out more. But I would say

00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:36.970
just find out what works for you. Because for

00:22:36.970 --> 00:22:39.369
me, this worked. I really enjoyed doing this

00:22:39.369 --> 00:22:41.930
stuff on my own, working through the maths on

00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:45.130
my own. Other people might like the classrooms,

00:22:45.329 --> 00:22:47.349
the interactions with other people. Don't just

00:22:47.349 --> 00:22:49.970
conform to what most people do. Try to figure

00:22:49.970 --> 00:22:52.299
out, okay, this is... how I'm able to progress.

00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:54.819
I think my approach does not work for a lot of

00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:58.160
other people. I think it was also the university

00:22:58.160 --> 00:22:59.880
I went to, there was very little supervision.

00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:01.859
They just want you to show up for the exam and

00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:04.940
then you just get a grade. That's it. So that

00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:07.740
obviously works for some people, but doesn't

00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:11.220
for others, right? So yeah, that was my strategy,

00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:13.000
really. I think like leaning into what I enjoyed

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:16.539
and how I found that I was learning best. Two

00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.339
brilliant takeaways here. First, find your learning

00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:22.490
approach. Second, put the work after your classes.

00:23:22.990 --> 00:23:25.609
Something was not clear and you were not able

00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:29.150
to ask your teacher. Do your own research. You

00:23:29.150 --> 00:23:31.670
think you're not ready for the exam and the subject

00:23:31.670 --> 00:23:34.829
is super complex. Look for more opportunities

00:23:34.829 --> 00:23:38.049
to study through different materials and empower

00:23:38.049 --> 00:23:41.230
yourself to ace the exam. Don't give up. Yeah,

00:23:41.230 --> 00:23:43.269
sorry. The reason I mentioned it as well is because...

00:23:43.529 --> 00:23:46.490
People, they would go to class, barely pay attention,

00:23:46.670 --> 00:23:48.349
and then just in their back of their mind, they're

00:23:48.349 --> 00:23:50.009
like, okay, I went to class. Great. I'm like

00:23:50.009 --> 00:23:51.769
keeping up with everything. I was like, no, you're

00:23:51.769 --> 00:23:53.430
not. Probably didn't understand what the professor

00:23:53.430 --> 00:23:55.809
was saying because it's really, really difficult

00:23:55.809 --> 00:24:00.430
to understand. And I found for some class, it

00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:02.690
was better to just take an hour and look at it

00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:04.470
myself. And then you can ask questions to your

00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:07.170
friend groups afterwards. But it's like this

00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:09.569
taking exercise of just going to class, I would

00:24:09.569 --> 00:24:11.609
try to avoid falling into that trap because a

00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:14.720
lot of people do. Absolutely. I think a question

00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.859
you can ask yourself is, are you able to explain

00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:20.119
what the professor just taught you, in simple

00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:22.559
words, to someone who has never heard of that

00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:24.819
subject before, to a younger sibling or family

00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:27.579
member? And if the answer is no, you probably

00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:30.859
need to put that extra hour in to make sure that

00:24:30.859 --> 00:24:33.579
you will be ready for the exam. And you cannot

00:24:33.579 --> 00:24:36.059
blame the professor for not being clear or not

00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:39.240
liking his or her teaching style. And this advice

00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.400
is actually applicable to any major. Not only

00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:46.140
engineering. During your first years of uni,

00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:48.619
did you have to do an internship or anything

00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:53.059
similar to that? So I never really did like a

00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:54.720
chemical engineering internship outside of the

00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.319
built -in programs. I would say that's probably

00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.920
a side effect of me not really having a mentor

00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.599
or not really knowing what I wanted to do. I

00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.099
think at the time I was just thinking if I could

00:25:06.099 --> 00:25:09.150
get a degree in engineering. I'll be fine. That's

00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:11.390
sort of what people told me. So it was a bit

00:25:11.390 --> 00:25:13.269
of a shock to me. Like, I think I noticed this

00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:16.190
about two and a half years in, I went to this

00:25:16.190 --> 00:25:18.869
internship fair and I was speaking to a lot of

00:25:18.869 --> 00:25:21.029
people. And it was the first time that I was

00:25:21.029 --> 00:25:23.670
exposed to all these companies, like for instance,

00:25:23.750 --> 00:25:25.609
consultancy. I didn't even know what consultancy

00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:28.690
was, right? I was 20. You have people that know

00:25:28.690 --> 00:25:30.609
it at 12, they want to work at McKinsey, right?

00:25:30.690 --> 00:25:32.809
So for those who don't know, McKinsey is like

00:25:32.809 --> 00:25:35.210
a very well -known prestigious consulting firm.

00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:38.339
So for me, it was the first time coming in touch

00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:40.079
with this and I was thinking, oh my God, okay,

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:42.099
there's this whole world that I don't know. I

00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:45.420
need to start educating myself because no one

00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:47.759
was telling me really. And I felt like I was

00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.640
already way behind some of the other people.

00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:53.359
Again, I hadn't been proactive enough trying

00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.779
to figure this stuff out, being in the right

00:25:55.779 --> 00:25:58.700
types of student clubs, things like that. So

00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:00.940
I think for me, that was a sort of an eye -opener.

00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:04.099
And what I did from there on out is I had drawn

00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:06.079
loads, if I had maybe overkill a little bit,

00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:07.880
I had drawn loads of student organizations where

00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.359
I did student consulting with companies. I did

00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.859
courses on like business, et cetera, to sort

00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:17.599
of add to my purely engineering degree. I was

00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:19.160
like, yeah, I need to be, I need to practice

00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:21.240
some soft skills. So I did loads of those as

00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:23.579
well. Student organization called Academics for

00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:25.480
Companies. And that was, I really, really enjoyed

00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:27.480
that because it was for me the first time I've

00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.279
found some other like -minded people. And they

00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.660
knew a lot more about just companies in general

00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:36.900
and what the options are for your career and

00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.099
the importance of like sort of building your

00:26:39.099 --> 00:26:41.880
story. So for me, I would say, even if you don't

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.180
like it, it's worth exploring and joining a few

00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:46.859
student organizations and just seeing what comes

00:26:46.859 --> 00:26:49.400
out of it. And you can always switch, try different

00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:51.559
ones out, but try not to just isolate yourself

00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:53.660
to the degree. Like the degree is important,

00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:57.160
obviously, but it's only half the story. And

00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.319
I feel like I realized that. way too late. I

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:02.799
couldn't agree more. Joining student associations

00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.019
could change your career path down the line.

00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.559
For the students who have part -time jobs and

00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:11.279
are already swamped between classes and those

00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.400
part -time jobs, I still want to advise you to

00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.119
try to find half an hour, an hour per week, where

00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.420
you could still join those student associations.

00:27:21.019 --> 00:27:23.339
I know I'm asking you to go above and beyond,

00:27:23.420 --> 00:27:26.019
but just imagine that you will get to understand

00:27:26.019 --> 00:27:29.150
also what the jobs are out there. And as Laurence

00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:32.269
just said, you could meet some like -minded people

00:27:32.269 --> 00:27:35.670
who can support you today and in the future.

00:27:36.190 --> 00:27:38.329
Yeah, I think finding a few people there that

00:27:38.329 --> 00:27:40.309
are maybe a little bit older than you that you

00:27:40.309 --> 00:27:42.609
can speak to, I think the first step is exploring

00:27:42.609 --> 00:27:45.950
what even exists. And then if there's a few things

00:27:45.950 --> 00:27:48.450
that interest you, then you can start strategizing

00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.789
about what you need to do to get there. But don't

00:27:50.789 --> 00:27:52.990
skip ahead of that first step where people, they

00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:54.789
join on something in consulting, it's like, okay,

00:27:54.789 --> 00:27:57.750
I'm going to become a consultant. There's more

00:27:57.750 --> 00:28:01.230
things out there. So yeah, explore a lot, I would

00:28:01.230 --> 00:28:03.349
say. Speak to people who've been through it.

00:28:03.569 --> 00:28:06.230
Build your story around you as well. What interests

00:28:06.230 --> 00:28:08.789
you? How does that shine outside of your grades?

00:28:09.150 --> 00:28:10.789
What are some things where you've shown leadership?

00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:13.089
Things like that. These questions come up in

00:28:13.089 --> 00:28:15.450
interviews all the time. And if you haven't had

00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:18.089
a first job yet, all the attention goes to your

00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:20.269
extracurriculars. Like you're not going to talk

00:28:20.269 --> 00:28:22.329
in an interview about your grades, right? So

00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:24.630
you need to have something to talk about in your

00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:26.940
interview. So make sure that you... beef that

00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:30.279
up a little bit, basically. Exactly. And something

00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:32.700
I would like to add as well, actually two points.

00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:36.180
First, those extracurricular activities will

00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:39.059
help you understand what you like doing or not,

00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:42.099
which is connected to my second point, is that

00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:44.920
you will learn from the experiences of graduates,

00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:50.039
professionals. Those associations go beyond the

00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.059
uni doors. They give you insights on what is

00:28:53.059 --> 00:28:55.900
out there. You can also discover jobs you've

00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:59.700
never heard of. Laurens, can you tell us a little

00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:01.619
bit more about your master's program and your

00:29:01.619 --> 00:29:04.839
experience there? Yeah, so once you go into your

00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:07.460
master's program, you even do this, I think,

00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:09.160
in your third bachelor year, if I'm not mistaken.

00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.259
You get a certain amount of study points and

00:29:11.259 --> 00:29:13.660
you spend with a team. You go with a company,

00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:15.400
and these are fairly big companies, to be honest,

00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:17.420
like it's a great opportunity, and you solve

00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:20.640
a problem for them. And it depends on what the

00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.460
problem is, but you would often use some simulation

00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:26.500
tools or whatnot, and you would have a problem

00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:30.180
statement. You do some research, you do some

00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:32.460
problem solving, and then you present it back

00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:35.079
in front of the classroom and people will ask

00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:37.779
you questions. So I think it's a great way to

00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:39.359
explore what it's like to work at one of those

00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.720
companies. It can also skew your view a little

00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.339
bit. I think most industries are very wide. So

00:29:45.339 --> 00:29:49.029
I would say don't be... scared off by one bad

00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:51.210
experience. You can find innovative companies

00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.670
in each industry. But the way they structured

00:29:53.670 --> 00:29:56.230
is, yeah, I would say the very, very bulk of

00:29:56.230 --> 00:29:58.269
the degree is very heavy theoretical courses.

00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:01.029
And then in the later years, especially the master

00:30:01.029 --> 00:30:04.289
program, you do a lot more hands -on stuff, which

00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:07.190
was fun on one hand, but I really didn't enjoy

00:30:07.190 --> 00:30:09.789
it that much personally. And then my final year,

00:30:09.930 --> 00:30:12.890
I did a study abroad program for one year in

00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:16.650
America. And that for me was half a year pure

00:30:16.650 --> 00:30:18.829
lab work and thesis and half a year of courses.

00:30:19.390 --> 00:30:22.670
So that gave me some insight into what research

00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:25.250
would be like. And then I was offered a sort

00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:28.190
of a doctorate position there, but I really didn't

00:30:28.190 --> 00:30:31.930
enjoy the research bits. So yes, that's politely

00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:34.809
no to that. And that went on. So even if you

00:30:34.809 --> 00:30:37.490
didn't like it much, you still were very good

00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:39.710
at it. Can you tell us why you didn't like it?

00:30:40.109 --> 00:30:43.359
I think it... The part that I enjoyed about it

00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.500
was, again, I really enjoyed the research part

00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:49.119
of it, like the thinking, setting up the experiments,

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.759
but what I really don't like is you were very

00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:55.039
much at the mercy of your results and results

00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:57.180
can go wrong for any number of reasons. I was

00:30:57.180 --> 00:31:00.059
doing research on something called block copolymer

00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.440
micelles, which are nano -sized drug delivery

00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.779
vehicles. So they are like little capsules for

00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:09.019
nano -sized drugs and they can enter tumors,

00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:11.509
so they can be used for. for treating cancers.

00:31:12.089 --> 00:31:15.130
So because they're very small, if one dust particle

00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:17.930
gets into your vial, the whole thing's ruined.

00:31:18.009 --> 00:31:20.490
So six months of hard work and you just go to

00:31:20.490 --> 00:31:22.769
waste. And I really, really didn't enjoy that

00:31:22.769 --> 00:31:25.529
constant stress, hard work that doesn't always

00:31:25.529 --> 00:31:27.710
pay off. I think, yeah, I think I showed like

00:31:27.710 --> 00:31:30.670
the right attitude and I was very disciplined.

00:31:30.829 --> 00:31:33.450
I think I was good at what I was doing, but I

00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:35.730
mean, I very quickly realized. So for me, and

00:31:35.730 --> 00:31:39.710
also in the US, the industry around doctoral

00:31:39.710 --> 00:31:43.490
research is very intense. You get paid very little.

00:31:44.329 --> 00:31:48.470
Professors are very highly demanding. Let's just

00:31:48.470 --> 00:31:51.710
say that. And so I think the combination of that,

00:31:51.769 --> 00:31:55.029
for me, meant that it was not right for me. Thank

00:31:55.029 --> 00:31:57.589
you for sharing. And I do have a question on

00:31:57.589 --> 00:32:00.849
your move to the US. How do you build the confidence

00:32:00.849 --> 00:32:06.130
to move? You don't. I think I was so unbelievably

00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:09.490
nervous. Especially there is in Europe, you have

00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:12.069
this thing called Erasmus. So it's very common

00:32:12.069 --> 00:32:14.829
for people to move to a different country in

00:32:14.829 --> 00:32:19.049
Europe and for a semester or a year. And you

00:32:19.049 --> 00:32:21.210
usually have a whole group that's going and there's

00:32:21.210 --> 00:32:23.450
international vibes, right? So it's quite nice.

00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:26.190
But the student exchange program I was doing

00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:28.950
wasn't under that. So it was me and one other

00:32:28.950 --> 00:32:31.490
person from Belgium I didn't know, but we just

00:32:31.490 --> 00:32:34.309
went there and there was no program. So I was

00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:38.470
very nervous about it. I lived in the same city

00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:42.150
my whole life. And I was like, okay, I should

00:32:42.150 --> 00:32:45.390
really just try this. Why don't I just, I mean,

00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:47.130
it's one year. What's the worst that can happen?

00:32:47.230 --> 00:32:50.390
I really wanted to move abroad for some time.

00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:53.309
And I was always talking about it. And I was

00:32:53.309 --> 00:32:54.890
like, you know what? I'm all talk. Let's just

00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:58.109
try it. So I did it. And the first week was,

00:32:58.190 --> 00:33:01.130
like the first three days, we were horrible because

00:33:01.130 --> 00:33:03.569
I was so nervous. I didn't have a cell phone,

00:33:03.609 --> 00:33:06.400
not a bank account, anything. My roommates were,

00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:10.380
it was a bit weird. But a week in, I would say

00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:14.079
all of that had already vanished. So I think

00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.619
you need to accept that no one's really confident

00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:18.700
when they do this thing. You just have to try

00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:21.420
hard stuff and do it. And it is the most rewarding.

00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:22.700
For me, it was the most rewarding experience

00:33:22.700 --> 00:33:24.859
ever. It was like completely life -changing for

00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:27.819
me. I think it really opened my eyes to be like,

00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:29.980
okay, wow, the world is bigger than where I'm

00:33:29.980 --> 00:33:32.759
from. I really liked living in Belgium, but this

00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:36.109
really opened my eyes. And what I learned was,

00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:38.630
I mean, you become a lot more self -sufficient.

00:33:39.250 --> 00:33:41.809
You learn to be on your own, to be honest, take

00:33:41.809 --> 00:33:43.829
care of yourself. It's a great learning curve.

00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:45.930
You learn a lot about yourself. I mean, there

00:33:45.930 --> 00:33:47.829
will be lonely days, obviously, right? So you're

00:33:47.829 --> 00:33:50.109
moving to no country, like you don't have your

00:33:50.109 --> 00:33:52.690
friends there. So you have to accept that it's

00:33:52.690 --> 00:33:54.470
not always going to be easy. There will be lonely

00:33:54.470 --> 00:33:57.160
times, but that's okay. You'll get through that.

00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.259
And not everyone enjoys this, but then at least

00:34:00.259 --> 00:34:01.799
you will never be wondering like, oh, what if

00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:03.400
I moved to America? I would have loved it. Yeah,

00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:04.720
I would have at the time of my life, but I never

00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.559
tried, right? At least you'll know like, yeah,

00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.920
it wasn't for me. Didn't really work out. That's

00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:11.599
okay. That's completely fine. We really have

00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.440
this thing where we think like, oh, if it doesn't

00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:15.199
work out, it'll be horrible. Like, no, it really,

00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:17.679
really isn't. I have said it before, but that's

00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.219
if there's one message I can give is to just

00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:24.079
try hard stuff. I think it was a super positive

00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:25.900
experience. And that's also when I came back.

00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:28.170
to Belgium after, I was like, okay, I need to

00:34:28.170 --> 00:34:29.869
apply for a job abroad because I want to do this

00:34:29.869 --> 00:34:33.090
again. I want to explore new spaces. And I think

00:34:33.090 --> 00:34:37.190
I would recommend everyone to at least move abroad

00:34:37.190 --> 00:34:39.989
for like six months of your life just to see

00:34:39.989 --> 00:34:42.690
what's out there. There's nothing to lose. There's

00:34:42.690 --> 00:34:44.809
everything to gain, I would say. Couldn't agree

00:34:44.809 --> 00:34:48.349
more. And we are very lucky in Europe. There

00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:51.289
are so many opportunities to move abroad. And

00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:53.289
if you're thinking, how am I going to finance

00:34:53.289 --> 00:34:55.969
it? There are so many scholarships you can apply

00:34:55.969 --> 00:34:58.869
for. They might be challenging to get, but you

00:34:58.869 --> 00:35:02.710
can get some. You also have paid programs. Keep

00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:04.750
in mind that some of them are based on your motivation,

00:35:04.789 --> 00:35:07.550
but others, like scholarships, are based on your

00:35:07.550 --> 00:35:09.750
grades as well. I would recommend you to reach

00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:13.570
out to anyone in your uni who is in charge of

00:35:13.570 --> 00:35:15.650
those programs, of connecting you, of giving

00:35:15.650 --> 00:35:18.789
you information about those. And if you can't

00:35:18.789 --> 00:35:20.530
find anyone, just start with your professors

00:35:20.530 --> 00:35:25.289
and look into Erasmus programs. And again, don't

00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:28.710
give up. Don't be discouraged by the work it

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:31.610
can require from you to get those. The cliche

00:35:31.610 --> 00:35:33.769
thing you hear all the time, but I'm going to

00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:35.909
say it anyway, is like when they ask people on

00:35:35.909 --> 00:35:38.250
their deathbed, their regrets are never the things

00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:40.050
they did. It's the things they didn't do. So

00:35:40.050 --> 00:35:46.070
there you go. A little quote. That's a great

00:35:46.070 --> 00:35:48.710
quote. Keep that in mind if you're hesitating

00:35:48.710 --> 00:35:53.309
about anything in life. During your study years,

00:35:53.469 --> 00:35:56.610
what would you have done differently? I would

00:35:56.610 --> 00:35:58.929
probably study the same thing. I'm happy I did.

00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:04.449
I would have liked to have known earlier the

00:36:04.449 --> 00:36:06.989
importance of doing things besides studying.

00:36:07.650 --> 00:36:10.829
It didn't hinder me too much in the end. Or maybe

00:36:10.829 --> 00:36:13.210
it did, I don't know. But I would have loved

00:36:13.210 --> 00:36:14.920
to have... Been involved in all those things

00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:17.260
earlier. Not just to build my story. I really

00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:19.019
did enjoy it. And I really enjoyed the people

00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:21.539
I met there. Build this very strong network to

00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:24.260
this day. But I just was simply not aware that

00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:26.219
this is something you need to do. I think there's

00:36:26.219 --> 00:36:27.519
many people who are not aware. I mean, maybe

00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.079
there's a bit more know -how around this now.

00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:34.119
But when I started uni, I honestly had no clue.

00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:36.559
So I think that's probably one thing. The other

00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.059
part would be I would have liked to have been

00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:41.460
more proactive in finding maybe a mentor. Someone

00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:42.920
who's a couple of years older who can like...

00:36:43.210 --> 00:36:45.130
Explain to me how these things work, where to

00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:47.630
apply, how to prepare for those things as well.

00:36:47.809 --> 00:36:49.610
But I think in the student organizations, you

00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:53.489
can usually find people like that. Thank you,

00:36:53.489 --> 00:36:56.710
Lawrence. So now let's jump into your career.

00:36:56.929 --> 00:36:59.530
Can you tell us how you started? What did you

00:36:59.530 --> 00:37:02.889
do? When I came back to, I finished my degree

00:37:02.889 --> 00:37:08.510
in the US and I came back and I had no clue what

00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:11.070
I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to do something

00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:14.039
with technology. Because I was thinking I enjoy

00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.039
it, but I also think it's the future. I mean,

00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:17.960
it didn't have to be a genius back then to think

00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.380
that. But I wanted something fast -paced. I wanted

00:37:21.380 --> 00:37:24.099
something that's a company that had a lot of

00:37:24.099 --> 00:37:26.440
young people as well that felt dynamic. And maybe

00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:28.219
a knee -jerk reaction to some of the projects

00:37:28.219 --> 00:37:31.460
I did at the chemical companies, right? And the

00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:33.820
second part is I wanted to move abroad. So when

00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:36.340
I came back to Belgium, I took like two or three

00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:38.599
months traveling. I visited my friend in Taiwan.

00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.260
He was studying there. I lived there for a month

00:37:41.260 --> 00:37:43.099
and a half with him. It was really fun. Came

00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:45.659
back home, had literally zero money left in my

00:37:45.659 --> 00:37:47.800
bank account. So I was like, okay, I got to find

00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:49.519
a job. My parents were also like, look, we're

00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:51.320
not going to just keep supporting you. You need

00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.280
to find a job, right? So I started thinking about,

00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.820
okay, what do I want to do? And I just applied

00:37:55.820 --> 00:37:59.340
for jobs all over the world. Mostly in Europe,

00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:01.639
I would say. I applied a lot to London and Paris,

00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.639
actually. So in another life, I could have moved

00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.119
to Paris. Well, some of my friends did. Maybe

00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:11.579
my French would be decent. But anyway, so I applied

00:38:11.579 --> 00:38:14.420
to a lot of jobs all over Europe. I applied to

00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:18.019
some jobs in Australia even. It was pretty like

00:38:18.019 --> 00:38:22.320
spray and pray. But I had identified that I wanted

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.380
to do a little bit more in the business area

00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:26.440
and at the intersection of business and tech.

00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:30.539
So at the end, after a few months, I interviewed

00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:33.579
with IBM and with Microsoft at the time. Those

00:38:33.579 --> 00:38:35.340
were the first two that reached out, which were

00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:40.340
both in London or surrounding areas. And I really

00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:42.800
liked the people I met at IBM. It was a lot of

00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.300
young, interesting, smart people. It seemed very

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:49.500
varied in the type of work that they were doing.

00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.260
It was in the middle of London. And I was like,

00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:52.900
okay, this is really cool. It was like right

00:38:52.900 --> 00:38:54.619
by the London Eye. I was like, oh my God, you

00:38:54.619 --> 00:38:56.420
know, big city. I also come from a very small

00:38:56.420 --> 00:38:59.260
town. So I was like, oh my God, you know. I mean,

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.039
we all have that dream very young. And I mean,

00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:03.739
it went really well. I got the job offer. They

00:39:03.739 --> 00:39:05.820
were the first ones to give me a job offer. Microsoft

00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:07.880
was... I think they also realized I wasn't sure

00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:09.360
what I wanted to do. So they were like, oh, come

00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:11.199
back in six months to apply for a sales role.

00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:14.099
But I was not really that interested in it. So

00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:16.000
I ended up going for IBM right after they offered

00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.539
it to me. Just took the leap of faith, to be

00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:21.960
honest. And I honestly didn't have a great opinion

00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:23.840
of London at first. I was like, I'm not sure

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:25.500
how I feel about London, but it's a city where

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:27.179
the longer you live, the more you like it. And

00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:31.320
yeah, my mentality going into it was, I'll go

00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:34.340
there. For a year or two, see if I like it. And

00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:37.119
if it sucks, then I can just come home, right?

00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:40.159
It's only a Eurostar away. And yeah, I'm still

00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:43.079
here. So I would say a success story. That's

00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.940
how I decided to land with IBM. My experience

00:39:46.940 --> 00:39:51.900
there was, I would say overall, quite good. I

00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:54.719
think the cool aspect of it was... They were

00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:56.920
hiring a lot of graduates. So it was almost like

00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:58.760
you're back at university. Every month there

00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.139
was like 20 new people joining and you join with

00:40:01.139 --> 00:40:04.119
your cohort. You go for three weeks to do like

00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.559
the onboarding from really close bonds. For me,

00:40:06.579 --> 00:40:07.880
it was great to meet, to make friends because

00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:09.840
I, when I moved to London, I know zero people.

00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:12.380
So again, a little bit scary because I knew it's

00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:14.900
harder to make friends in a big city if you're

00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:16.980
not studying. That was, that was really fun.

00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:19.099
I met lots of fun people, mostly British people.

00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:20.619
It wasn't as international as I thought it would

00:40:20.619 --> 00:40:23.429
be. The work itself, I stayed for about three

00:40:23.429 --> 00:40:26.730
years and I think I did a new project every,

00:40:26.849 --> 00:40:30.010
let's say, four to six months or so. So it's

00:40:30.010 --> 00:40:32.710
kind of like not having a new job, but not too

00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:35.010
far from it, every six months. New team, new

00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:37.929
people, new clients, new destination. I was traveling

00:40:37.929 --> 00:40:41.650
a lot within the UK to stay in a hotel to go

00:40:41.650 --> 00:40:43.969
visit the clients and work on a problem with

00:40:43.969 --> 00:40:48.750
them. Pausing here. This is where not putting

00:40:48.750 --> 00:40:52.949
a limit to yourself can lead to. If you didn't

00:40:52.949 --> 00:40:55.949
catch how Lawrence started sharing his experience,

00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:59.949
it's that he sat down and applied everywhere.

00:41:00.969 --> 00:41:03.869
If you are remotely okay with moving abroad or

00:41:03.869 --> 00:41:08.210
want to take that leap, visa or no visa, just

00:41:08.210 --> 00:41:11.610
try. Something can work out and you can end up

00:41:11.610 --> 00:41:14.750
having the experience you want and need. Yeah,

00:41:14.829 --> 00:41:17.650
I'm happy I did it. I think I came back from

00:41:17.650 --> 00:41:19.590
America and I was dreaming. My head was in the

00:41:19.590 --> 00:41:21.389
clouds, right? So I was like, the sky's the limit.

00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:24.110
Just apply everywhere. Obviously, it made it

00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:25.630
easier in Europe because of the visa situation.

00:41:25.829 --> 00:41:29.409
But nonetheless, you'd be surprised. Some companies

00:41:29.409 --> 00:41:31.170
are willing to sponsor the rights if you have

00:41:31.170 --> 00:41:33.829
the right skill set. So don't let that take away

00:41:33.829 --> 00:41:36.530
from it either. My experience working at IBM,

00:41:36.849 --> 00:41:39.929
I think this is sort of a theme in my career.

00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:43.289
My degree was very technical. I wanted to do

00:41:43.289 --> 00:41:44.920
some... a little bit more business. And then

00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:46.760
once I started doing more business stuff, I was

00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:48.480
like, do I miss the technical bits? Like the

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.420
classic is the grass is always greener, that

00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:53.119
thing, right? So I've always done like that bit

00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:54.800
of both where I wanted to combine technical,

00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.059
non -technical work. It ended up being mostly

00:41:58.059 --> 00:42:00.599
non -technical, I would say. I learned a lot.

00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:03.199
I think consulting is a, I mean, it's a very

00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.699
popular first job, but I really, and maybe I

00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:07.280
drank the Kool -Aid. I think it's a great first

00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.360
job to have because you just get thrown into

00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.239
so many situations. You learn so much. You get

00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.679
exposed to so many industries. It's not the same

00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:18.619
as working in each of those industries, but it

00:42:18.619 --> 00:42:20.920
really, really is a very steep learning curve.

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.320
You'll get lots of experiences. And yeah, you

00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:26.300
can leave after two years. If you already know

00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:27.400
what you want to do, obviously you don't have

00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:29.079
to do that. But for me, it was perfect because,

00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.059
I mean, to this day, I'm not 100 % sure what

00:42:32.059 --> 00:42:34.699
I want to do for the rest of my life. So it was

00:42:34.699 --> 00:42:37.440
a great way to meet lots of young, interesting,

00:42:37.500 --> 00:42:40.300
smart people. Try different things, different

00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:43.019
types of work, different industries, like very,

00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:46.739
very broad. I was aligned to mostly because of

00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:49.059
my engineering background in energy and utilities

00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:51.980
and oil and gas. And the type of work I did was

00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:56.000
a bit of a mix of, I would say, some delivery,

00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.760
agile delivery, a little bit of product management,

00:42:59.019 --> 00:43:02.820
a little bit of project management, and more

00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:04.699
towards the latter part of my career, a little

00:43:04.699 --> 00:43:07.409
bit in data. That's when I started to think more

00:43:07.409 --> 00:43:08.969
about, maybe I want to do something a bit more

00:43:08.969 --> 00:43:11.130
technical again. And that sort of also led me

00:43:11.130 --> 00:43:15.050
to leave IBM as well. I spent a lot of time in

00:43:15.050 --> 00:43:16.929
hotels across the country, which is fun in the

00:43:16.929 --> 00:43:18.849
first week and then get part of it because you

00:43:18.849 --> 00:43:20.750
want to be in London with your friends. So I

00:43:20.750 --> 00:43:23.309
think overall, it was a great experience. Very

00:43:23.309 --> 00:43:25.309
happy I did it. And I still, some of my best

00:43:25.309 --> 00:43:27.570
friends from IBM, I still meet with them. So

00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:29.369
I think your first job usually is quite special.

00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:32.389
So I can highly recommend doing something similar,

00:43:32.489 --> 00:43:36.070
a graduate scheme. at a larger corporation that

00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:39.429
can give you many different opportunities equally.

00:43:39.550 --> 00:43:41.190
I think working for a startup could be really

00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:43.969
cool, but this is my personal experience. Great

00:43:43.969 --> 00:43:47.809
insights. I've never been a consultant, but I

00:43:47.809 --> 00:43:51.349
did hear two things. First, that it's quite intense,

00:43:51.570 --> 00:43:55.190
but that if you are remotely lost and you don't

00:43:55.190 --> 00:43:58.849
know what to do, you will be learning so much

00:43:58.849 --> 00:44:02.489
about so many different industries, as Laurence

00:44:02.489 --> 00:44:06.389
mentioned. Another takeaway we have from Lawrence

00:44:06.389 --> 00:44:09.849
here is that he was able to juggle and change

00:44:09.849 --> 00:44:13.570
his mind on what he wanted to do at a specific

00:44:13.570 --> 00:44:16.570
time of his life. So at some point, he wanted

00:44:16.570 --> 00:44:19.050
to do something more businesslike and then technical.

00:44:20.309 --> 00:44:23.969
So if I can share advice here is to study something

00:44:23.969 --> 00:44:28.369
technical, to have this freedom to change from

00:44:28.369 --> 00:44:32.360
one and the other. As you can see. from the experience

00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.000
Lawrence shared is that he did something related

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.860
to project management, project management, all

00:44:37.860 --> 00:44:41.320
those things he learned on the ground. And I

00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:43.820
think you can too. But if you want to do something

00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:47.199
technical, then you'll have to start from the

00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:49.179
ground up, meaning that you will have to either

00:44:49.179 --> 00:44:53.199
self -study or do a whole degree, meaning that

00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.099
it will be challenging to just seize that technical

00:44:56.099 --> 00:45:00.420
opportunity. I'm sure some of you can learn on

00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:04.320
the go, but getting that opportunity with a new

00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:08.920
job to be trusted to work on technical things

00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:11.960
when you have no background in that might be

00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:15.920
difficult. What do you think? It's interesting

00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.619
you say that. When I was picking my degree, either

00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:22.340
it was like the classical engineering or you

00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:23.579
have this thing called business engineering,

00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:25.380
which is like mostly business with a few maths,

00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:28.719
whatever. The person who... who advised me was

00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:31.340
like, look, you can just do engineering and you

00:45:31.340 --> 00:45:33.820
can learn the business after pretty quickly.

00:45:33.940 --> 00:45:37.119
But it's very hard to go the opposite way. So

00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.280
I agree. I think university is a great place

00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.880
to learn hard skills. Again, not everyone is

00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.280
akin to hard skills, right? So if that's not

00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:48.039
your thing, then obviously not. But if you're

00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:49.920
doubting about, if you're doubting between those,

00:45:50.059 --> 00:45:52.079
I think I would lean towards learning hard skills.

00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:54.300
You can even do some student organization. It's

00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:56.000
just what I did to pick up soft skills, how to

00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:58.099
do presenting, how to do a PowerPoint, right?

00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:01.519
But also you learn those on the job. Like employers

00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:03.500
don't really care for a graduate that you're

00:46:03.500 --> 00:46:05.239
great at presenting. This is something that they

00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.880
know you can learn, pick up. So yeah, I agree

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.960
wholeheartedly with them. And if you're asking

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.380
yourself, are technical roles something that

00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.400
I'm interested in? All the tech companies have

00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:19.559
been sharing free courses online. And also you

00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:23.139
have so many resources from YouTube to TikTok

00:46:23.139 --> 00:46:27.260
to any kind of platforms. So it's never too late.

00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.900
We just want to raise awareness if you're debating

00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:34.420
between the two like Lawrence was. I did it recently

00:46:34.420 --> 00:46:37.940
as well when I was at Meta, which is the next

00:46:37.940 --> 00:46:41.679
company. In the last year or so, I really got

00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:43.239
the urge. I want to do more technical stuff.

00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.840
I took a bunch of courses. I did a lot of side

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.000
projects on machine learning and analytics, which

00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.559
then massively helped also with my current role.

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.800
It did help that I had some of it in engineering,

00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.480
but it's never too late to take these things

00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.860
up. I work with colleagues now. Some of them

00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.559
studied history and are now like the smartest

00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.719
engineers I know. So yeah. Perfect example. So

00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.480
here we go. So go for those skills if you're

00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.659
interested in them. I'm curious, Lawrence, how

00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:14.000
much were you paid when you started at IBM? Graduate

00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.619
salaries in London have always been really poor.

00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:20.539
I started on, this is pounds, 30 ,000, which

00:47:20.539 --> 00:47:22.880
in London is very difficult to live off of. So

00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:24.780
I was basically paycheck to paycheck for the

00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:27.460
first year and a half, I would say. I don't think

00:47:27.460 --> 00:47:30.440
that's changed. I think maybe this is typical

00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:32.579
for London is like the beginning is hard, but

00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:34.440
the more senior positions make it worth it. So

00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:36.300
you're going to have to stick with it. But obviously

00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:38.340
it doesn't really help when you're still junior.

00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:42.010
So I started on 30, then after a year. I made

00:47:42.010 --> 00:47:44.469
my first promotion and you go to 38, I think

00:47:44.469 --> 00:47:46.710
it was. And then a year later, I went to 55.

00:47:46.869 --> 00:47:48.889
So you can see in two years, it doubles already.

00:47:48.969 --> 00:47:52.389
And that trajectory can easily keep going like

00:47:52.389 --> 00:47:57.449
that. So I really would say don't worry too much

00:47:57.449 --> 00:48:00.150
about your salary in your first few years. So

00:48:00.150 --> 00:48:02.590
think more about your long -term career trajectory

00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:05.570
and what the long -term financial benefits could

00:48:05.570 --> 00:48:08.070
be. You should never base your decisions based

00:48:08.070 --> 00:48:11.039
on that. So, yeah, I think that this was seven

00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:14.079
years ago. I'm sure it's probably still the same

00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:15.820
salary, to be honest. And inflation has been

00:48:15.820 --> 00:48:18.059
crazy. So I think these days graduates have it

00:48:18.059 --> 00:48:20.159
even harder. So don't feel bad if you have a

00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:22.139
graduate salary and you're like, have you started

00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:25.360
to make ends meet? It's super normal. I wasn't

00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:27.840
too stressed at the time because I knew. I knew

00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:29.960
it would get better, but it can be a bit stressful

00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.800
from time to time, right? Like if you only have

00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:35.519
one paycheck left, that's also, it teaches you

00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:37.920
to handle money, right? So there's a learning

00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:40.980
in everything. Always. So what did you want to

00:48:40.980 --> 00:48:43.199
do next? I want to try something else. I want

00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:46.179
to work not in the services industry, so not

00:48:46.179 --> 00:48:48.800
in consulting anymore. So I wanted to work for

00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.570
tech companies, either... I would say like late

00:48:52.570 --> 00:48:55.690
-stage scale -ups, something like Deliveroo or

00:48:55.690 --> 00:49:00.110
big tech companies like Meta. So I applied to

00:49:00.110 --> 00:49:02.969
a bunch of companies. I was interviewing with

00:49:02.969 --> 00:49:07.130
TikTok as well when I got the job. Well, no,

00:49:07.230 --> 00:49:08.989
it was right before I got the job with Meta.

00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:12.489
So I think also that for me personally, I think

00:49:12.489 --> 00:49:13.949
this is very common. The brand name really was

00:49:13.949 --> 00:49:16.369
really alluring. I'm not ashamed to admit that.

00:49:16.389 --> 00:49:17.989
I think it's very common, right? Especially early

00:49:17.989 --> 00:49:20.170
in your career, I was very... much thinking,

00:49:20.289 --> 00:49:21.710
okay, I need to get some brand names so that

00:49:21.710 --> 00:49:24.489
afterwards I can take some risks and I can fall

00:49:24.489 --> 00:49:26.329
back on those. Yeah, I'm not saying that's the

00:49:26.329 --> 00:49:28.849
best approach, but this A approach, it's maybe

00:49:28.849 --> 00:49:31.550
a little bit more risk averse, but still quite

00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:35.849
happy I did it. The biggest art of Meta was that

00:49:35.849 --> 00:49:39.030
I had to move to Ireland, but I knew that I could

00:49:39.030 --> 00:49:40.710
move back to London. They kind of told me in

00:49:40.710 --> 00:49:42.409
an interview, like, we're going to allow you

00:49:42.409 --> 00:49:44.849
to move back, et cetera. And for me, it was like

00:49:44.849 --> 00:49:47.369
just another leap, to be honest. I really wanted

00:49:47.369 --> 00:49:50.239
to leave IBM. I spoke to a few people before

00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:51.699
I joined Meta. I had a message sent on LinkedIn

00:49:51.699 --> 00:49:55.239
who had done the role before, especially in my

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:58.480
team. They all were like, yeah, they had a great

00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.559
time and they did it. And they said that they

00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:03.860
had quite a lot of freedom to do projects that

00:50:03.860 --> 00:50:06.400
they enjoyed. So I was like, okay, perfect, fine.

00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:08.960
I wanted to do technical work and I was doing

00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.519
a lot of non -technical work and I was doing

00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:14.420
both. But I was thinking, okay. I was doing all

00:50:14.420 --> 00:50:16.199
these courses on the side of machine learning

00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.179
and analytics. And I was thinking, okay, well,

00:50:18.219 --> 00:50:22.420
why do I keep dipping my toes in? Why don't I

00:50:22.420 --> 00:50:27.360
just try it like an actual technical role? So

00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.679
that was on my mind, I think, for the last year

00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.139
or so when I was at Meta and I was doing these

00:50:31.139 --> 00:50:34.059
courses. And to be honest, it ended up being

00:50:34.059 --> 00:50:36.480
that a company reached out to me whilst I was

00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:40.219
also applying for some startups. So that sort

00:50:40.219 --> 00:50:41.880
of was a natural progression for me from IBM.

00:50:42.590 --> 00:50:46.550
trying to go in -house to Meta in Ireland and

00:50:46.550 --> 00:50:48.969
then back in London. And then sort of thinking,

00:50:49.110 --> 00:50:51.090
okay, well, I've been thinking about going into

00:50:51.090 --> 00:50:52.710
a more technical route for so long. Why don't

00:50:52.710 --> 00:50:55.630
I just give it a go? And so my career does look

00:50:55.630 --> 00:50:58.170
like it's like flipping from side to side, but

00:50:58.170 --> 00:51:02.010
I do not regret that. I think I am also still

00:51:02.010 --> 00:51:03.989
young. The opportunity is the lowest it will

00:51:03.989 --> 00:51:07.809
be for me now. And the benefit of finding out

00:51:07.809 --> 00:51:09.989
what you like is much more, it's much better

00:51:09.989 --> 00:51:11.900
than... I think some people, they pick a career

00:51:11.900 --> 00:51:13.179
and stick with it for the rest of their lives

00:51:13.179 --> 00:51:16.219
for no reason. Like, okay, I ended up somehow

00:51:16.219 --> 00:51:18.159
in insurance, nothing wrong with insurance, but

00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:19.659
then they're like, yeah, well, I know insurance

00:51:19.659 --> 00:51:20.800
and they stayed there for the rest of their lives.

00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:24.840
I really don't like that. So I think fail fast

00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:28.260
is also, I think one of Meta's move fast or whatever

00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:30.559
it is, yeah, or fail fast. I think that's a great

00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:32.420
way to approach things. Reflecting a little bit

00:51:32.420 --> 00:51:34.699
more on my time at Meta, I think joining was

00:51:34.699 --> 00:51:37.559
difficult because it was COVID. So it was difficult

00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:39.539
to meet people. Maybe it's joining the same,

00:51:39.659 --> 00:51:42.780
yeah. So the first two months were like really

00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:44.320
dreadful because you're just sitting in your

00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:46.019
hotel room. You're new to the city. You didn't

00:51:46.019 --> 00:51:48.380
know anyone. And I think once the office opened,

00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:50.179
I really enjoyed it. Really liked the team I

00:51:50.179 --> 00:51:51.820
worked with. It was really, really good vibes.

00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.500
And I really enjoyed it. It was much more international

00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:57.880
than I had at IBM, which I was craving a little

00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:02.079
bit. It was really cool. That's sort of my time

00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:05.260
at Meta. Agreed on what you say about failure.

00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:09.159
I think failing fast. We should kind of live

00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:12.099
by just because failing means you're learning.

00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:14.559
So if you're failing fast, you're learning fast

00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:17.280
as well. Yeah, it's the same thing as like moving

00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.300
abroad. It's scary what's going to happen. I

00:52:19.300 --> 00:52:21.059
think that's even more, people feel that even

00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:24.239
more in their career. And I do feel that to an

00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:28.519
extent as well. But again, in the grand scheme

00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:30.400
of things, we're going to be working quite for

00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.659
quite a long time, most of us, right? So spending

00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:36.239
two years at trying something out is, I would

00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:38.460
say. Definitely worth it. Especially if you've

00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.940
already got some experience under your belt.

00:52:41.219 --> 00:52:43.840
Don't be scared to try new stuff. Try different

00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.099
career paths. The last thing you want is to do

00:52:46.099 --> 00:52:47.920
a career for 40 years that you don't like. It

00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.500
doesn't have to be that way. Can you explain

00:52:51.500 --> 00:52:54.260
us what you're doing now? Yes. So I currently

00:52:54.260 --> 00:52:57.119
work in the analytics team. Analytics is a term

00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.380
which is essentially leveraging data for insights,

00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:03.980
I would say. So the role I do is very hands -on.

00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:07.550
I spend, I would say... 80 % of my time coding

00:53:07.550 --> 00:53:09.630
at the moment, which is very different from what

00:53:09.630 --> 00:53:12.130
I was doing before and presenting data analysis

00:53:12.130 --> 00:53:14.730
insights, et cetera. So we work very closely

00:53:14.730 --> 00:53:17.409
with the leadership team. So if they have a problem

00:53:17.409 --> 00:53:21.289
that needs solving, let's say they are thinking,

00:53:21.429 --> 00:53:23.110
oh, should we buy this? Should we expand there?

00:53:23.630 --> 00:53:27.590
We take that problem, dissect it, and we find

00:53:27.590 --> 00:53:30.449
the right data. We do some analysis, some fitting,

00:53:30.630 --> 00:53:32.230
et cetera. Most of it is quite math related.

00:53:32.730 --> 00:53:34.960
And then you present those. back to the stakeholders.

00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.699
So there are some skills I've learned from consulting

00:53:37.699 --> 00:53:41.840
and meta that are always present because you

00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.000
have to present to senior leadership, but it

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.900
combines the technical element as well. So it's

00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:49.199
moving a lot more back into the direction of

00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:51.719
individual contributor work, which is something

00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:54.420
I wanted to do for a while, just really get back

00:53:54.420 --> 00:53:56.820
into the meat of things. I would say that that

00:53:56.820 --> 00:53:58.539
is not just coding. There's many tools you can

00:53:58.539 --> 00:54:01.280
use for that. There is more visualization tools,

00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:03.119
such as you probably heard of Tableau or Power

00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:05.800
BI. But then there's a lot of that happens in

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.440
the backend. So staging data, doing more detailed

00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:11.780
analysis, doing maybe regressions or fittings,

00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.219
things like that. That is then more akin to the

00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:17.800
development part of it. And do I want to do this

00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:19.260
for the rest of my life? I don't know. I'm really

00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:22.119
enjoying it at the moment, right? So yeah, that's

00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:24.119
great. The industry is also quite different.

00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:27.050
automated trading. So in the stock market, which

00:54:27.050 --> 00:54:29.050
I knew nothing about. So the learning curve was

00:54:29.050 --> 00:54:31.309
very steep, but I don't think it really matters

00:54:31.309 --> 00:54:33.210
what industry you do. I really try to think,

00:54:33.329 --> 00:54:35.630
okay, what type of job am I going to do? What

00:54:35.630 --> 00:54:38.550
type of thinking am I going to do? And do I like

00:54:38.550 --> 00:54:40.550
the environment around me? And I think the last

00:54:40.550 --> 00:54:43.349
part is like, I really, really love my colleagues.

00:54:43.449 --> 00:54:45.550
They're very smart. They're very hardworking,

00:54:45.670 --> 00:54:47.969
but the hours are not crazy. So I have the really

00:54:47.969 --> 00:54:49.389
good balance where you're doing interesting,

00:54:49.510 --> 00:54:51.670
challenging work that doesn't require you to

00:54:51.670 --> 00:54:53.710
work 80 hours per week. And I think that's...

00:54:54.139 --> 00:54:56.800
For me, it's a perfect fit at least because it

00:54:56.800 --> 00:54:59.179
does tend to happen where you pick very challenging

00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:02.619
jobs, require you to almost give up your life

00:55:02.619 --> 00:55:06.260
to just stand to that. Full circle moment where

00:55:06.260 --> 00:55:07.860
we're going back to your definition of success,

00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:10.239
right? That's very important for me. I really,

00:55:10.260 --> 00:55:13.820
really do try to apply that in my... It can sometimes

00:55:13.820 --> 00:55:17.179
be hard. Not to, for instance, I had an interview

00:55:17.179 --> 00:55:20.469
and I knew that... the work hours were very intense.

00:55:20.690 --> 00:55:22.670
I knew I would love, really like the job, but

00:55:22.670 --> 00:55:26.269
it didn't marry with my version of success. And

00:55:26.269 --> 00:55:28.889
I knew that in the end, I would not be happy.

00:55:29.030 --> 00:55:30.909
And I'm not saying you should never do this.

00:55:30.949 --> 00:55:33.030
Like if you're hungry and young, it's okay to

00:55:33.030 --> 00:55:34.769
do this for a year or two, but I'm saying you

00:55:34.769 --> 00:55:37.230
don't have to, and you don't fall on the strap

00:55:37.230 --> 00:55:38.690
of doing this continuously because there will

00:55:38.690 --> 00:55:42.170
always be a very exciting, challenging opportunity,

00:55:42.309 --> 00:55:44.809
right? There will always be there. So really

00:55:44.809 --> 00:55:47.980
try to balance the two. And if you do want to

00:55:47.980 --> 00:55:49.619
do that, I would say, yeah, maybe do it earlier

00:55:49.619 --> 00:55:52.460
in your career rather than later. We live in

00:55:52.460 --> 00:55:54.340
a society where, especially lately, like this

00:55:54.340 --> 00:55:57.199
hustle culture is becoming very prevalent. And

00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:59.719
these things need to be looked at into perspective.

00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:01.800
At the end of the day, it's about your happiness,

00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:03.400
right? So how can you make yourself happy now

00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:07.340
and tomorrow? So try to accomplish both. Thank

00:56:07.340 --> 00:56:09.880
you for this brilliant advice, Lawrence. And

00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:12.300
again, it goes back to, are you sharing the same

00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:14.739
version of success than Lawrence? And if you

00:56:14.739 --> 00:56:18.550
are... Think about it before seizing this new

00:56:18.550 --> 00:56:22.309
opportunity. Try to understand what's the work

00:56:22.309 --> 00:56:24.550
culture within the company you're applying for.

00:56:24.769 --> 00:56:26.909
Reach out to the people working there. Reach

00:56:26.909 --> 00:56:30.210
out to the people who left the company. Ask the

00:56:30.210 --> 00:56:33.869
questions to allow you to make the best decision

00:56:33.869 --> 00:56:37.610
for yourself. And to highlight something else

00:56:37.610 --> 00:56:40.510
that Lauren said, don't stick to one industry.

00:56:41.309 --> 00:56:45.110
If you have transferable skills, Go for that

00:56:45.110 --> 00:56:49.389
new opportunity. That might match your new version

00:56:49.389 --> 00:56:52.170
of success at a different age, different stage

00:56:52.170 --> 00:56:55.170
of your life. Yeah, completely agree. Here we

00:56:55.170 --> 00:56:58.010
go. Last question. What is your last piece of

00:56:58.010 --> 00:57:00.469
advice for the people listening to us? I think,

00:57:00.489 --> 00:57:02.710
I mean, I've said this many times. My one advice

00:57:02.710 --> 00:57:06.070
is do hard things, like try hard things. Especially,

00:57:06.190 --> 00:57:09.469
it's something that's given me the most results.

00:57:09.710 --> 00:57:12.400
That doesn't mean you have to succeed. But like

00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:14.420
coming to London as well, it was hard. But I

00:57:14.420 --> 00:57:16.480
was just saying yes to everything. My first job

00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.539
was saying yes to everything. And it does give

00:57:19.539 --> 00:57:21.800
a lot back. So I would say try to do hard things.

00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:24.980
It is usually rewarding. It will give you a sense

00:57:24.980 --> 00:57:27.579
of satisfaction and will help you out in the

00:57:27.579 --> 00:57:29.880
long term. And secondly, look after yourself

00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:33.079
today as well. And don't just think about tomorrow.

00:57:33.980 --> 00:57:36.559
Yeah, that's it really. I know we touched on

00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:39.659
it a few times. Do take care of yourself. We'll

00:57:39.659 --> 00:57:42.389
never say it enough. Thank you so much, Lawrence,

00:57:42.510 --> 00:57:44.289
for everything that you shared with us today.

00:57:44.550 --> 00:57:46.809
No, happy to be here. And I'm curious to listen

00:57:46.809 --> 00:57:50.809
to the episode. Thank you for listening. And

00:57:50.809 --> 00:57:53.230
I cannot wait to hear your thoughts about this

00:57:53.230 --> 00:57:56.750
new episode. And I cannot wait to share the recap

00:57:56.750 --> 00:57:58.449
next week. So I'll see you soon.