Hello, and welcome to And You, How Did You Make
It, the podcast in which we explore each step
that has built a career path of various professionals
through the discovery of their habits, passions,
and interests over the last few decades. I'm
Yusra, your host, and today we meet Laurens. Laurens
is from Belgium and currently lives in London.
Laurens worked in tech and now for a hedge fund,
but he actually studied chemical engineering.
Intriguing, right? What is inspiring about Laurens'
path is his drive. Studying engineering is difficult?
Okay, I'll go for it. Need to find a job? Okay,
let me apply everywhere. Yes, everywhere. Even
if it requires a visa, let me try it. Laurens
does not only walk you through his journey, he
inspires you to follow his bold steps. Let's
learn from him. Hello, Laurens, and welcome to
the podcast. Tell us a little bit about you.
Thank you. Very happy to be here. I think we
were speaking before I mentioned I really enjoy
listening to podcasts, so it's really fun to
be on one. My name is Laurence. I am from Belgium.
Originally, I lived there for most of my life.
But as I started my first job, I moved to a different
country. While I was studying, I also did a year
abroad. My background is in engineering, but
I've done a little bit of everything in my professional
career. ranging from consulting to big tech and
now working at hedge funds. A few curveballs
there, but I've learned a lot along the road
and I hope to share some of that today. Thank
you, Laurent. And before starting talking about
your whole life, let's start with your definition
of success. It's a hard question to answer. It
will be a little bit different for everyone.
I think for me personally, it's been balancing
sort of short -term happiness with long -term
happiness. So I think people tend to veer one
way or the other where they either only care
about how they feel right now and they optimize
for the short term. And some people, they push
everything on the long term. They work very,
very long hours. They work very hard. And there
is merit in both of them. And it's trying to
balance those things. I think it's very difficult.
And it's something that I'm actively trying to
do where I try to... learn a lot. So I try to
do difficult things. But at the same time, I
am very aware that, you know, I am 30 at the
moment. I should also enjoy my life, right? So
can I balance a challenging career with also
being happy in the moment? I think for me, that
is sort of what I've been working towards the
past few years. And yeah, I think balancing that
well for me is a success. Life is a constant
challenge asking you, why do you want to prioritize?
Yeah, I think we were sort of told that When
you come out of college, you should just grind.
Like, especially if you choose a career in, let's
say, finance, something like investment banking
is known to have very excruciating hours. Oh,
you know, you're young, you have the energy,
you can just grind. And before you realize you're
40, you're old and you haven't enjoyed the last
20 years of your life. So I think there is a
merit in applying yourself. But I think, yeah,
balancing is not something people tell you to
do. So it's something that I try to do and I've
become more aware of over the past few years.
Let's now go back in time and discuss your early
teenage years, your middle school years. What
kind of student were you? What interests did
you have? Any passions? Any extracurricular activities?
What can you share with us? I think in middle
school, I was quite different from how I am now.
I think I lived off of my impulses a little bit.
much more, I think, as most kids do. And I was
very, very energetic. I really liked certain
subjects like maths, but I struggled to sort
of sit down and just listen to a teacher teach
classes much more so than I did later on in life.
So I think in middle school, it was a little
bit chaotic still. I think I was fortunate enough
to have sort of... a good way with maths and
sciences, which helped me along the way. But
it's something that trickled over into high school
as well, right up until the moment for me until
I reached university, which is a different animal
altogether, right? So I think what I enjoyed
was not so much the languages, but much more
actually logical thinking. I found myself, that's
one of the few courses where I could really,
yeah, get lost in. Do you remember why you were
more interested in math and logical classes rather
than others? It's hard to say why. I just, I
really like the aspect of finding, I guess it's
either true or false, right? It's binary, whereas
other things are a bit more, yeah, opaque, like
a little bit more murky. You don't know. Really,
what is the right answer for us? It's very straightforward
and it's logical. And I think that's something
I've always enjoyed, especially later down life
when I did engineering. It's something I really
enjoy doing. But yeah, we'll come back to that
later. What about your extracurricular activities?
What were you doing after school or on weekends?
Yeah, I think this is actually, that's a good
point. I did... a really, really wide range of
extracurriculars. I think every day I had almost
two hobbies. So I did football, tennis, judo,
drawing, scouts. And then on the weekends, I
would often do like tournaments as well. So I
came home from school and I was out all day after,
which really helped. I really think this is great
to just, I guess, one, just expose your brain
to different environments. And you don't have
to do it just when you're 12. I think. Having
these hobbies that sort of prickle like different
parts of your brain helps you at all stages.
I actually still try to do new things at this
day and age. Something I did a little bit less
when I went to uni. I think that's normal, but
I'm trying to pick that back up. Do you remember
what you liked doing the most? And do you have
any takeaways from your school years? What do
you think stick with you during all those years?
Values, I'm not too... I think maybe the Scouts,
yes. I think it helps you. Yeah, I mean, you
have this concept of like patrouille. Patrouille,
I'm not sure how you say it in French. Maybe
it's very similar. But you get opportunities
to show leadership from a young age, right? So
you become responsible for your small team, even
at the young age of, let's say, 12 or 13. And
it's the first time you come in contact with
these concepts, whereas if you don't do that...
You would never, ever do this until you work.
So I think some stuff like that, also being in
nature and doing stuff hands -on, I think is
always a good balance with, I think, today, this
day and age. I mean, everything's very digital,
right? So I think balancing those things out
is always good. Yeah, in terms of values as well,
I think you meet people at the Scouts also from
all walks of life. So you're not really grouped
with just people from your neighborhoods. I mean,
like from your school doing the same courses
as you. I think it's a great way to just get
in touch with different people. Yes, and you
create a community for yourself, which could
be life -changing for teenagers who haven't managed
to find their communities within the school doors.
What about sports? I know at that age, you don't
think about takeaways and values you're learning.
And we both know how sports values can take you
far in life. Anything you can share with us?
That's a good point. I mean, I was always very
competitive. And I think one thing that's, I
mean, if you play tennis every week and you go
to competition, I think what you learn is this
again, this like you learn discipline, practicing
every week to have long -term benefits. And that's
something that comes back later as well. Unconsciously,
that's been built in that if you practice for
many years, you'll become better. You'll see
the results, but you need to put in hours. Yeah.
Learning discipline, consistency, and the idea
of progressing through a long period of time.
at such a young age is incredible. If you're
listening to us and you're not sure about signing
up to a new sport, just go for it. Just imagine
how you'll be preparing yourself for the new
challenges that life will bring you. And understanding
that nothing comes easy, but if you do put the
work, you do put the action, you will move closer
to where you want to be and where you want to
go. Can you tell us more about your late teenage
years, high school years? Were you still interested
in the same subjects? Yeah, my high school years,
I think, were similar to my middle school years.
To be honest, not too much changed. I think I
was exposed to more courses. I really liked history,
aside from maths and sciences. I, for a long
time, was considering studying history instead
of chemical engineering. The reason I didn't
is because I was thinking a little bit more logically
again. It was like, okay, well, I really enjoy
his tribute. Does that mean it has to be my career?
I think I landed on the ladder, right? It doesn't
need to be my career. I think it's also maybe
something people don't, people always say, follow
your dreams. I don't want to say don't, but I'm
also thinking just because you enjoy a subject
doesn't mean you want to do that as a career.
So you should really envisage like, okay. If
I like exercising, does that mean I would enjoy
being a PT or would that mean I would enjoy being
a fitness instructor? Not necessarily. So always
try to think one step further. And I think if
you can combine something you're really passionate
about with your job, that's perfect. But I think
you should always also try to lean into your
strengths because that often is things you like.
Like I like mathematical thinking. So I do a
job where I do that type of thinking. So I might
not care about the industry, but I care about...
how I'm thinking day to day. Yeah, I think other
than that, high school, again, I felt quite grateful
again. I wasn't too stressed out during my high
school years. I figured that I would probably
go into engineering, probably because I wanted
to prove something. It was known as a difficult.
difficult degree. And I think at that age, everyone's
a little bit insecure. So was I. And I wanted
to prove something to the world like I can do
it. I'm not saying that's the best way to go
about choosing your degree, but I'm quite happy
I did it because it was something hard. I tried
to do something hard and I shouldn't be afraid
to do that. You should always try. You can always
do something else after. So I think it was sort
of setting me up for that. I didn't really get
too many Too much advice on what to do. Maybe
a gentle message from my parents. But to be honest,
it was my own decision at the end of the day.
And I was simply going with what am I good at?
Should I do that? And I knew with engineering
afterwards, you can do many different things.
You don't have to be an engineer. So I think
maybe a risk -averse approach for myself, whereas
I pick something that later on I can still change
my mind. This is a very interesting approach.
Not thinking about the industry, but the work
you will be delivering, meaning what the job
will ask from you, what your manager will ask
from you. I know it's so far away from your reality,
but in your case, being able to use the logical
thinking exercise that you like. And you know
what? Nothing or no one will stop you from changing
your mind down the line. We actually are both
surrounded by people who are now part -time teachers
in school, university, or sport classes, actually.
What we're missing growing up is to hear that
you will be able to do different things if you're
interested in different things. Lawrence, you
were mentioning how you were insecure when you
were younger. How do you build the confidence
to still go for what is labeled as difficult
studies? My grades were, I would say, decent.
They weren't anything special. My grades in high
school, the thing is, again, in Belgium, you
don't need to have great grades to get into the
top university. You can just enroll in it. And
the way they do it is they make the exams quite
hard. So at the end of the day, only half the
people go through the second year, etc. So in
high school, I never really had to apply myself
too much. So my grades were decent, but I knew
there was a lot more in there. But to be honest,
I was not sure. I was a bit scared because everybody
tells you, even teachers tell you, like, I'm
not sure it's for you. And it sort of made me
want to prove it even more. I wouldn't say I
was super confident at all. I think confidence,
for me at least, came from doing it and knowing
like, okay, well, I studied hard for it and I
was able to do it. But for me, it was a huge
shock from high school to uni because I went
from not studying or barely studying at all to
like now having zero supervision and having to
prove myself, right? So I don't recommend you
do that. I think it's better to learn at a younger
age, like some discipline, because motivation
will come and go, right? You might be super motivated
one day, but discipline is something that takes
a long time to build. So I was definitely a bit
caught out at first. I made it through. But I
was not set up for success the same way as some
of my peers were that had been like more regimented
in high school. And that's something that I had
to learn. But again, the confidence part is something
I really built. I wouldn't feel bad if you're
not confident. Let's say you're 17, 18. Nobody's
really confident. People are faking or most people
are faking at least. So confidence, you build
it yourself and you need to also like allow yourself.
to congratulate yourself and say like yeah i
did it like let your confidence build over time
just to pick up on something that you said you
said that your peers had more discipline than
you did but don't you think that your upbringing
did prepare you for this don't you think you
still have strong foundations your discipline
was built thanks to all the sports and scouts
and everything that you were doing when you were
younger right Yeah, it's hard to say, I guess.
I think the discipline was definitely there.
I think the discipline for me was that I enjoyed
doing hard things or at least trying to accomplish
hard things. And so I didn't mind like if something
is very difficult to spend a lot of time on it
over and over and not knowing that it might not
pay off. I think, yeah. I think trying many different
things allows me to be a little bit more open
to that. From a young age, if you do music, drawing,
scouts, and different sports, it will be less
scary to, again, do something new. It's maybe
something that helped me as well down the line
to move abroad. But that being said, you need
to be, I guess, you just need to take the leap,
I think, and shut off your brain and just go
for it, I think. There is a million things telling
you don't do it. Say, pick the safe option. But
sometimes, especially if you're young, I think
just do it. Like, just try hard stuff. That's
one thing I would say. And like, you can always,
you're not going to, I mean, it's not going to
ruin your life, right? So I think that we over...
you over index for like what could go what could
happen if it doesn't work out rather than sorry
for um failing instead of like well actually
if it doesn't work out nothing really happens
like it's fine so yeah i think that also helps
with confidence also on the work floor knowing
that the worst that can happen isn't that bad
like it really really is and so just go for it
couldn't agree more there are two takeaways here
first Try new activities as soon as possible
because then, as Lawrence, you would be able
to just won't mind spending a lot of time working
on hard things, even if it doesn't pay off, and
accepting failures as learnings. And the second
point is seeing everything as opportunities,
not focusing on what could go wrong. And did
you receive any crucial advice during your teenage
years? Did you have any mentor at that time?
I would say overall it's something I missed a
little bit. I will say that having a mentor should
be a two -way street. You should also actively
look for it. But to be honest, I was not very
proactive with it. I wasn't lucky enough to have
someone that I was like, okay, this person is
something that I can emulate myself after. I
think that would have helped me a lot. So I think
it's an advice I would give to people. thinking
of a mentor think about some people that are
having a career or have a life that you aspire
and just which you'd be surprised how willing
people are to help i would be more than willing
to help someone reach out to me so um i think
that's one part there was one person i think
that helped me decide on my degree and it's again
someone who told me like oh he did engineering
as well and he said just try it like honestly
you'd be surprised how far you can make it and
um He said also like, what's the worst that can
happen? And that sort of gave me the final push
to say like, okay, let's just go for it. And
now you're asking yourself, how can I find a
mentor? And that's the million euro question.
I think it really depends on your situation.
Sometimes you can find those people around you
in a circle. It can be a family member, a fan
of a family member, or it gets a little bit more
challenging. But you can ask advice through teachers.
And if they are not helpful for some reason,
try to reach out to older students. And if you
can't find someone, watching content online on
YouTube, TikTok can help already. I do believe
it's easier to find a mentor when you get to
uni. There are more opportunities there. And
let's deep dive into your uni years, Laurence.
How did you make it to your engineering program?
You said you didn't need to pass a test to get
in, but the program is challenging enough to
make its own selection throughout the years,
right? You can kind of just rock up almost, but
you can very quickly tell that university tries
to, yeah, call almost the people who aren't serious
or who are not going to be right for the course.
So it had a really reputation of... Being like,
okay, it's going to be very hard to pass the
exams, et cetera. So I think I showed up, it
was a little bit of a shock because it was just
pure like symbols. There was no text, right?
It was very math heavy. And for me, it taught
me to sort of sit on your own and just work through
problems slowly on your own time. You can go
a long way and gave me a lot of confidence afterwards
knowing that you can throw anything at me. I'll
be able to make it through because I was able
to do XYZ in engineering. And it really, really
helped with my confidence levels, I think, being
successful throughout that. But also, it's not
for everyone. I think it was a very theoretical
degree that I did. You also have more applied
degrees. So a bunch of people did that as well,
which I think is also the right way to do it.
I think the theoretical aspect of it, I really
enjoy it. I think it's just something that aligns
to my thinking. And I think overall, the engineering
years, I think for me, it was setting me up down
the line in terms of taking very big problems,
breaking them down. It's something you often
need to do for exams and just being hyper -logical
in your reasoning. And that's something I use
to this day. And it makes you not afraid to ask
questions when you're tackling a project, et
cetera, because you're just following a logical
reasoning. It was not easy. But I'm very, very
happy I did it. Even though I'm not an engineer
today, I'm very happy I did it. So the first
year and a half is general engineering. And then
you can sort of choose your subjects after that.
I kind of, again, went with the ones that I was
getting the best grades in, which was chemistry.
So I ended up doing chemical engineering. But
I very quickly realized, although I really enjoyed
studying it, I did a few projects with a chemical
company, et cetera, that you have to do also
in your master's program. What you do with some
hands -on engineering projects, and I really
didn't enjoy those. I think both the environment
that you're in was a bit stuffy, not very innovative.
Those companies do exist. I'm not saying they
don't. But secondly, I think you're not, or you're
often not, unless you're doing research or very
highly technological pieces, you're not doing
the stuff you're learning in the classroom. You're
doing more basic stuff, at least the stuff that
I was doing. So for me, it was not really a fit.
I already knew that. But knowing that in engineering,
I was like probably going to explore other stuff.
So did you hear that? First, Laurens approaches
very clear. He chose the path where he had the
best grades. And secondly, he quickly realized,
thanks to our hands -on experience, that it was
not the thing that he enjoyed because of the
specific experiences that he had. Lawrence, can
you explain us your studying approach? How did
you manage to have those grades? Were you studying
hard after each day, week? What was your strategy?
So what my strategy was is I didn't find the
classes useful at all because the subject matter
was often too dense to understand, especially
engineering. And to be honest, the professors
weren't great at explaining what they were doing.
So I often, especially in the first year, skipped
class. and would digest the material on my own.
Now, I'm not saying I recommend that. I think
a lot of, if you have a good professor, they
can be very helpful. But it's just also what
I learned I was good at, at just digesting materials
on my own. So I would tend to backload a lot
of the work until, like, we just have one exam
per semester, that's it. So for the last two
months, I would just lock myself up and just
study from morning till evening. And just get
through it. I did a little bit of work, obviously,
throughout the year. But I would recommend to
obviously spread it out more. But I would say
just find out what works for you. Because for
me, this worked. I really enjoyed doing this
stuff on my own, working through the maths on
my own. Other people might like the classrooms,
the interactions with other people. Don't just
conform to what most people do. Try to figure
out, okay, this is... how I'm able to progress.
I think my approach does not work for a lot of
other people. I think it was also the university
I went to, there was very little supervision.
They just want you to show up for the exam and
then you just get a grade. That's it. So that
obviously works for some people, but doesn't
for others, right? So yeah, that was my strategy,
really. I think like leaning into what I enjoyed
and how I found that I was learning best. Two
brilliant takeaways here. First, find your learning
approach. Second, put the work after your classes.
Something was not clear and you were not able
to ask your teacher. Do your own research. You
think you're not ready for the exam and the subject
is super complex. Look for more opportunities
to study through different materials and empower
yourself to ace the exam. Don't give up. Yeah,
sorry. The reason I mentioned it as well is because...
People, they would go to class, barely pay attention,
and then just in their back of their mind, they're
like, okay, I went to class. Great. I'm like
keeping up with everything. I was like, no, you're
not. Probably didn't understand what the professor
was saying because it's really, really difficult
to understand. And I found for some class, it
was better to just take an hour and look at it
myself. And then you can ask questions to your
friend groups afterwards. But it's like this
taking exercise of just going to class, I would
try to avoid falling into that trap because a
lot of people do. Absolutely. I think a question
you can ask yourself is, are you able to explain
what the professor just taught you, in simple
words, to someone who has never heard of that
subject before, to a younger sibling or family
member? And if the answer is no, you probably
need to put that extra hour in to make sure that
you will be ready for the exam. And you cannot
blame the professor for not being clear or not
liking his or her teaching style. And this advice
is actually applicable to any major. Not only
engineering. During your first years of uni,
did you have to do an internship or anything
similar to that? So I never really did like a
chemical engineering internship outside of the
built -in programs. I would say that's probably
a side effect of me not really having a mentor
or not really knowing what I wanted to do. I
think at the time I was just thinking if I could
get a degree in engineering. I'll be fine. That's
sort of what people told me. So it was a bit
of a shock to me. Like, I think I noticed this
about two and a half years in, I went to this
internship fair and I was speaking to a lot of
people. And it was the first time that I was
exposed to all these companies, like for instance,
consultancy. I didn't even know what consultancy
was, right? I was 20. You have people that know
it at 12, they want to work at McKinsey, right?
So for those who don't know, McKinsey is like
a very well -known prestigious consulting firm.
So for me, it was the first time coming in touch
with this and I was thinking, oh my God, okay,
there's this whole world that I don't know. I
need to start educating myself because no one
was telling me really. And I felt like I was
already way behind some of the other people.
Again, I hadn't been proactive enough trying
to figure this stuff out, being in the right
types of student clubs, things like that. So
I think for me, that was a sort of an eye -opener.
And what I did from there on out is I had drawn
loads, if I had maybe overkill a little bit,
I had drawn loads of student organizations where
I did student consulting with companies. I did
courses on like business, et cetera, to sort
of add to my purely engineering degree. I was
like, yeah, I need to be, I need to practice
some soft skills. So I did loads of those as
well. Student organization called Academics for
Companies. And that was, I really, really enjoyed
that because it was for me the first time I've
found some other like -minded people. And they
knew a lot more about just companies in general
and what the options are for your career and
the importance of like sort of building your
story. So for me, I would say, even if you don't
like it, it's worth exploring and joining a few
student organizations and just seeing what comes
out of it. And you can always switch, try different
ones out, but try not to just isolate yourself
to the degree. Like the degree is important,
obviously, but it's only half the story. And
I feel like I realized that. way too late. I
couldn't agree more. Joining student associations
could change your career path down the line.
For the students who have part -time jobs and
are already swamped between classes and those
part -time jobs, I still want to advise you to
try to find half an hour, an hour per week, where
you could still join those student associations.
I know I'm asking you to go above and beyond,
but just imagine that you will get to understand
also what the jobs are out there. And as Laurence
just said, you could meet some like -minded people
who can support you today and in the future.
Yeah, I think finding a few people there that
are maybe a little bit older than you that you
can speak to, I think the first step is exploring
what even exists. And then if there's a few things
that interest you, then you can start strategizing
about what you need to do to get there. But don't
skip ahead of that first step where people, they
join on something in consulting, it's like, okay,
I'm going to become a consultant. There's more
things out there. So yeah, explore a lot, I would
say. Speak to people who've been through it.
Build your story around you as well. What interests
you? How does that shine outside of your grades?
What are some things where you've shown leadership?
Things like that. These questions come up in
interviews all the time. And if you haven't had
a first job yet, all the attention goes to your
extracurriculars. Like you're not going to talk
in an interview about your grades, right? So
you need to have something to talk about in your
interview. So make sure that you... beef that
up a little bit, basically. Exactly. And something
I would like to add as well, actually two points.
First, those extracurricular activities will
help you understand what you like doing or not,
which is connected to my second point, is that
you will learn from the experiences of graduates,
professionals. Those associations go beyond the
uni doors. They give you insights on what is
out there. You can also discover jobs you've
never heard of. Laurens, can you tell us a little
bit more about your master's program and your
experience there? Yeah, so once you go into your
master's program, you even do this, I think,
in your third bachelor year, if I'm not mistaken.
You get a certain amount of study points and
you spend with a team. You go with a company,
and these are fairly big companies, to be honest,
like it's a great opportunity, and you solve
a problem for them. And it depends on what the
problem is, but you would often use some simulation
tools or whatnot, and you would have a problem
statement. You do some research, you do some
problem solving, and then you present it back
in front of the classroom and people will ask
you questions. So I think it's a great way to
explore what it's like to work at one of those
companies. It can also skew your view a little
bit. I think most industries are very wide. So
I would say don't be... scared off by one bad
experience. You can find innovative companies
in each industry. But the way they structured
is, yeah, I would say the very, very bulk of
the degree is very heavy theoretical courses.
And then in the later years, especially the master
program, you do a lot more hands -on stuff, which
was fun on one hand, but I really didn't enjoy
it that much personally. And then my final year,
I did a study abroad program for one year in
America. And that for me was half a year pure
lab work and thesis and half a year of courses.
So that gave me some insight into what research
would be like. And then I was offered a sort
of a doctorate position there, but I really didn't
enjoy the research bits. So yes, that's politely
no to that. And that went on. So even if you
didn't like it much, you still were very good
at it. Can you tell us why you didn't like it?
I think it... The part that I enjoyed about it
was, again, I really enjoyed the research part
of it, like the thinking, setting up the experiments,
but what I really don't like is you were very
much at the mercy of your results and results
can go wrong for any number of reasons. I was
doing research on something called block copolymer
micelles, which are nano -sized drug delivery
vehicles. So they are like little capsules for
nano -sized drugs and they can enter tumors,
so they can be used for. for treating cancers.
So because they're very small, if one dust particle
gets into your vial, the whole thing's ruined.
So six months of hard work and you just go to
waste. And I really, really didn't enjoy that
constant stress, hard work that doesn't always
pay off. I think, yeah, I think I showed like
the right attitude and I was very disciplined.
I think I was good at what I was doing, but I
mean, I very quickly realized. So for me, and
also in the US, the industry around doctoral
research is very intense. You get paid very little.
Professors are very highly demanding. Let's just
say that. And so I think the combination of that,
for me, meant that it was not right for me. Thank
you for sharing. And I do have a question on
your move to the US. How do you build the confidence
to move? You don't. I think I was so unbelievably
nervous. Especially there is in Europe, you have
this thing called Erasmus. So it's very common
for people to move to a different country in
Europe and for a semester or a year. And you
usually have a whole group that's going and there's
international vibes, right? So it's quite nice.
But the student exchange program I was doing
wasn't under that. So it was me and one other
person from Belgium I didn't know, but we just
went there and there was no program. So I was
very nervous about it. I lived in the same city
my whole life. And I was like, okay, I should
really just try this. Why don't I just, I mean,
it's one year. What's the worst that can happen?
I really wanted to move abroad for some time.
And I was always talking about it. And I was
like, you know what? I'm all talk. Let's just
try it. So I did it. And the first week was,
like the first three days, we were horrible because
I was so nervous. I didn't have a cell phone,
not a bank account, anything. My roommates were,
it was a bit weird. But a week in, I would say
all of that had already vanished. So I think
you need to accept that no one's really confident
when they do this thing. You just have to try
hard stuff and do it. And it is the most rewarding.
For me, it was the most rewarding experience
ever. It was like completely life -changing for
me. I think it really opened my eyes to be like,
okay, wow, the world is bigger than where I'm
from. I really liked living in Belgium, but this
really opened my eyes. And what I learned was,
I mean, you become a lot more self -sufficient.
You learn to be on your own, to be honest, take
care of yourself. It's a great learning curve.
You learn a lot about yourself. I mean, there
will be lonely days, obviously, right? So you're
moving to no country, like you don't have your
friends there. So you have to accept that it's
not always going to be easy. There will be lonely
times, but that's okay. You'll get through that.
And not everyone enjoys this, but then at least
you will never be wondering like, oh, what if
I moved to America? I would have loved it. Yeah,
I would have at the time of my life, but I never
tried, right? At least you'll know like, yeah,
it wasn't for me. Didn't really work out. That's
okay. That's completely fine. We really have
this thing where we think like, oh, if it doesn't
work out, it'll be horrible. Like, no, it really,
really isn't. I have said it before, but that's
if there's one message I can give is to just
try hard stuff. I think it was a super positive
experience. And that's also when I came back.
to Belgium after, I was like, okay, I need to
apply for a job abroad because I want to do this
again. I want to explore new spaces. And I think
I would recommend everyone to at least move abroad
for like six months of your life just to see
what's out there. There's nothing to lose. There's
everything to gain, I would say. Couldn't agree
more. And we are very lucky in Europe. There
are so many opportunities to move abroad. And
if you're thinking, how am I going to finance
it? There are so many scholarships you can apply
for. They might be challenging to get, but you
can get some. You also have paid programs. Keep
in mind that some of them are based on your motivation,
but others, like scholarships, are based on your
grades as well. I would recommend you to reach
out to anyone in your uni who is in charge of
those programs, of connecting you, of giving
you information about those. And if you can't
find anyone, just start with your professors
and look into Erasmus programs. And again, don't
give up. Don't be discouraged by the work it
can require from you to get those. The cliche
thing you hear all the time, but I'm going to
say it anyway, is like when they ask people on
their deathbed, their regrets are never the things
they did. It's the things they didn't do. So
there you go. A little quote. That's a great
quote. Keep that in mind if you're hesitating
about anything in life. During your study years,
what would you have done differently? I would
probably study the same thing. I'm happy I did.
I would have liked to have known earlier the
importance of doing things besides studying.
It didn't hinder me too much in the end. Or maybe
it did, I don't know. But I would have loved
to have... Been involved in all those things
earlier. Not just to build my story. I really
did enjoy it. And I really enjoyed the people
I met there. Build this very strong network to
this day. But I just was simply not aware that
this is something you need to do. I think there's
many people who are not aware. I mean, maybe
there's a bit more know -how around this now.
But when I started uni, I honestly had no clue.
So I think that's probably one thing. The other
part would be I would have liked to have been
more proactive in finding maybe a mentor. Someone
who's a couple of years older who can like...
Explain to me how these things work, where to
apply, how to prepare for those things as well.
But I think in the student organizations, you
can usually find people like that. Thank you,
Lawrence. So now let's jump into your career.
Can you tell us how you started? What did you
do? When I came back to, I finished my degree
in the US and I came back and I had no clue what
I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to do something
with technology. Because I was thinking I enjoy
it, but I also think it's the future. I mean,
it didn't have to be a genius back then to think
that. But I wanted something fast -paced. I wanted
something that's a company that had a lot of
young people as well that felt dynamic. And maybe
a knee -jerk reaction to some of the projects
I did at the chemical companies, right? And the
second part is I wanted to move abroad. So when
I came back to Belgium, I took like two or three
months traveling. I visited my friend in Taiwan.
He was studying there. I lived there for a month
and a half with him. It was really fun. Came
back home, had literally zero money left in my
bank account. So I was like, okay, I got to find
a job. My parents were also like, look, we're
not going to just keep supporting you. You need
to find a job, right? So I started thinking about,
okay, what do I want to do? And I just applied
for jobs all over the world. Mostly in Europe,
I would say. I applied a lot to London and Paris,
actually. So in another life, I could have moved
to Paris. Well, some of my friends did. Maybe
my French would be decent. But anyway, so I applied
to a lot of jobs all over Europe. I applied to
some jobs in Australia even. It was pretty like
spray and pray. But I had identified that I wanted
to do a little bit more in the business area
and at the intersection of business and tech.
So at the end, after a few months, I interviewed
with IBM and with Microsoft at the time. Those
were the first two that reached out, which were
both in London or surrounding areas. And I really
liked the people I met at IBM. It was a lot of
young, interesting, smart people. It seemed very
varied in the type of work that they were doing.
It was in the middle of London. And I was like,
okay, this is really cool. It was like right
by the London Eye. I was like, oh my God, you
know, big city. I also come from a very small
town. So I was like, oh my God, you know. I mean,
we all have that dream very young. And I mean,
it went really well. I got the job offer. They
were the first ones to give me a job offer. Microsoft
was... I think they also realized I wasn't sure
what I wanted to do. So they were like, oh, come
back in six months to apply for a sales role.
But I was not really that interested in it. So
I ended up going for IBM right after they offered
it to me. Just took the leap of faith, to be
honest. And I honestly didn't have a great opinion
of London at first. I was like, I'm not sure
how I feel about London, but it's a city where
the longer you live, the more you like it. And
yeah, my mentality going into it was, I'll go
there. For a year or two, see if I like it. And
if it sucks, then I can just come home, right?
It's only a Eurostar away. And yeah, I'm still
here. So I would say a success story. That's
how I decided to land with IBM. My experience
there was, I would say overall, quite good. I
think the cool aspect of it was... They were
hiring a lot of graduates. So it was almost like
you're back at university. Every month there
was like 20 new people joining and you join with
your cohort. You go for three weeks to do like
the onboarding from really close bonds. For me,
it was great to meet, to make friends because
I, when I moved to London, I know zero people.
So again, a little bit scary because I knew it's
harder to make friends in a big city if you're
not studying. That was, that was really fun.
I met lots of fun people, mostly British people.
It wasn't as international as I thought it would
be. The work itself, I stayed for about three
years and I think I did a new project every,
let's say, four to six months or so. So it's
kind of like not having a new job, but not too
far from it, every six months. New team, new
people, new clients, new destination. I was traveling
a lot within the UK to stay in a hotel to go
visit the clients and work on a problem with
them. Pausing here. This is where not putting
a limit to yourself can lead to. If you didn't
catch how Lawrence started sharing his experience,
it's that he sat down and applied everywhere.
If you are remotely okay with moving abroad or
want to take that leap, visa or no visa, just
try. Something can work out and you can end up
having the experience you want and need. Yeah,
I'm happy I did it. I think I came back from
America and I was dreaming. My head was in the
clouds, right? So I was like, the sky's the limit.
Just apply everywhere. Obviously, it made it
easier in Europe because of the visa situation.
But nonetheless, you'd be surprised. Some companies
are willing to sponsor the rights if you have
the right skill set. So don't let that take away
from it either. My experience working at IBM,
I think this is sort of a theme in my career.
My degree was very technical. I wanted to do
some... a little bit more business. And then
once I started doing more business stuff, I was
like, do I miss the technical bits? Like the
classic is the grass is always greener, that
thing, right? So I've always done like that bit
of both where I wanted to combine technical,
non -technical work. It ended up being mostly
non -technical, I would say. I learned a lot.
I think consulting is a, I mean, it's a very
popular first job, but I really, and maybe I
drank the Kool -Aid. I think it's a great first
job to have because you just get thrown into
so many situations. You learn so much. You get
exposed to so many industries. It's not the same
as working in each of those industries, but it
really, really is a very steep learning curve.
You'll get lots of experiences. And yeah, you
can leave after two years. If you already know
what you want to do, obviously you don't have
to do that. But for me, it was perfect because,
I mean, to this day, I'm not 100 % sure what
I want to do for the rest of my life. So it was
a great way to meet lots of young, interesting,
smart people. Try different things, different
types of work, different industries, like very,
very broad. I was aligned to mostly because of
my engineering background in energy and utilities
and oil and gas. And the type of work I did was
a bit of a mix of, I would say, some delivery,
agile delivery, a little bit of product management,
a little bit of project management, and more
towards the latter part of my career, a little
bit in data. That's when I started to think more
about, maybe I want to do something a bit more
technical again. And that sort of also led me
to leave IBM as well. I spent a lot of time in
hotels across the country, which is fun in the
first week and then get part of it because you
want to be in London with your friends. So I
think overall, it was a great experience. Very
happy I did it. And I still, some of my best
friends from IBM, I still meet with them. So
I think your first job usually is quite special.
So I can highly recommend doing something similar,
a graduate scheme. at a larger corporation that
can give you many different opportunities equally.
I think working for a startup could be really
cool, but this is my personal experience. Great
insights. I've never been a consultant, but I
did hear two things. First, that it's quite intense,
but that if you are remotely lost and you don't
know what to do, you will be learning so much
about so many different industries, as Laurence
mentioned. Another takeaway we have from Lawrence
here is that he was able to juggle and change
his mind on what he wanted to do at a specific
time of his life. So at some point, he wanted
to do something more businesslike and then technical.
So if I can share advice here is to study something
technical, to have this freedom to change from
one and the other. As you can see. from the experience
Lawrence shared is that he did something related
to project management, project management, all
those things he learned on the ground. And I
think you can too. But if you want to do something
technical, then you'll have to start from the
ground up, meaning that you will have to either
self -study or do a whole degree, meaning that
it will be challenging to just seize that technical
opportunity. I'm sure some of you can learn on
the go, but getting that opportunity with a new
job to be trusted to work on technical things
when you have no background in that might be
difficult. What do you think? It's interesting
you say that. When I was picking my degree, either
it was like the classical engineering or you
have this thing called business engineering,
which is like mostly business with a few maths,
whatever. The person who... who advised me was
like, look, you can just do engineering and you
can learn the business after pretty quickly.
But it's very hard to go the opposite way. So
I agree. I think university is a great place
to learn hard skills. Again, not everyone is
akin to hard skills, right? So if that's not
your thing, then obviously not. But if you're
doubting about, if you're doubting between those,
I think I would lean towards learning hard skills.
You can even do some student organization. It's
just what I did to pick up soft skills, how to
do presenting, how to do a PowerPoint, right?
But also you learn those on the job. Like employers
don't really care for a graduate that you're
great at presenting. This is something that they
know you can learn, pick up. So yeah, I agree
wholeheartedly with them. And if you're asking
yourself, are technical roles something that
I'm interested in? All the tech companies have
been sharing free courses online. And also you
have so many resources from YouTube to TikTok
to any kind of platforms. So it's never too late.
We just want to raise awareness if you're debating
between the two like Lawrence was. I did it recently
as well when I was at Meta, which is the next
company. In the last year or so, I really got
the urge. I want to do more technical stuff.
I took a bunch of courses. I did a lot of side
projects on machine learning and analytics, which
then massively helped also with my current role.
It did help that I had some of it in engineering,
but it's never too late to take these things
up. I work with colleagues now. Some of them
studied history and are now like the smartest
engineers I know. So yeah. Perfect example. So
here we go. So go for those skills if you're
interested in them. I'm curious, Lawrence, how
much were you paid when you started at IBM? Graduate
salaries in London have always been really poor.
I started on, this is pounds, 30 ,000, which
in London is very difficult to live off of. So
I was basically paycheck to paycheck for the
first year and a half, I would say. I don't think
that's changed. I think maybe this is typical
for London is like the beginning is hard, but
the more senior positions make it worth it. So
you're going to have to stick with it. But obviously
it doesn't really help when you're still junior.
So I started on 30, then after a year. I made
my first promotion and you go to 38, I think
it was. And then a year later, I went to 55.
So you can see in two years, it doubles already.
And that trajectory can easily keep going like
that. So I really would say don't worry too much
about your salary in your first few years. So
think more about your long -term career trajectory
and what the long -term financial benefits could
be. You should never base your decisions based
on that. So, yeah, I think that this was seven
years ago. I'm sure it's probably still the same
salary, to be honest. And inflation has been
crazy. So I think these days graduates have it
even harder. So don't feel bad if you have a
graduate salary and you're like, have you started
to make ends meet? It's super normal. I wasn't
too stressed at the time because I knew. I knew
it would get better, but it can be a bit stressful
from time to time, right? Like if you only have
one paycheck left, that's also, it teaches you
to handle money, right? So there's a learning
in everything. Always. So what did you want to
do next? I want to try something else. I want
to work not in the services industry, so not
in consulting anymore. So I wanted to work for
tech companies, either... I would say like late
-stage scale -ups, something like Deliveroo or
big tech companies like Meta. So I applied to
a bunch of companies. I was interviewing with
TikTok as well when I got the job. Well, no,
it was right before I got the job with Meta.
So I think also that for me personally, I think
this is very common. The brand name really was
really alluring. I'm not ashamed to admit that.
I think it's very common, right? Especially early
in your career, I was very... much thinking,
okay, I need to get some brand names so that
afterwards I can take some risks and I can fall
back on those. Yeah, I'm not saying that's the
best approach, but this A approach, it's maybe
a little bit more risk averse, but still quite
happy I did it. The biggest art of Meta was that
I had to move to Ireland, but I knew that I could
move back to London. They kind of told me in
an interview, like, we're going to allow you
to move back, et cetera. And for me, it was like
just another leap, to be honest. I really wanted
to leave IBM. I spoke to a few people before
I joined Meta. I had a message sent on LinkedIn
who had done the role before, especially in my
team. They all were like, yeah, they had a great
time and they did it. And they said that they
had quite a lot of freedom to do projects that
they enjoyed. So I was like, okay, perfect, fine.
I wanted to do technical work and I was doing
a lot of non -technical work and I was doing
both. But I was thinking, okay. I was doing all
these courses on the side of machine learning
and analytics. And I was thinking, okay, well,
why do I keep dipping my toes in? Why don't I
just try it like an actual technical role? So
that was on my mind, I think, for the last year
or so when I was at Meta and I was doing these
courses. And to be honest, it ended up being
that a company reached out to me whilst I was
also applying for some startups. So that sort
of was a natural progression for me from IBM.
trying to go in -house to Meta in Ireland and
then back in London. And then sort of thinking,
okay, well, I've been thinking about going into
a more technical route for so long. Why don't
I just give it a go? And so my career does look
like it's like flipping from side to side, but
I do not regret that. I think I am also still
young. The opportunity is the lowest it will
be for me now. And the benefit of finding out
what you like is much more, it's much better
than... I think some people, they pick a career
and stick with it for the rest of their lives
for no reason. Like, okay, I ended up somehow
in insurance, nothing wrong with insurance, but
then they're like, yeah, well, I know insurance
and they stayed there for the rest of their lives.
I really don't like that. So I think fail fast
is also, I think one of Meta's move fast or whatever
it is, yeah, or fail fast. I think that's a great
way to approach things. Reflecting a little bit
more on my time at Meta, I think joining was
difficult because it was COVID. So it was difficult
to meet people. Maybe it's joining the same,
yeah. So the first two months were like really
dreadful because you're just sitting in your
hotel room. You're new to the city. You didn't
know anyone. And I think once the office opened,
I really enjoyed it. Really liked the team I
worked with. It was really, really good vibes.
And I really enjoyed it. It was much more international
than I had at IBM, which I was craving a little
bit. It was really cool. That's sort of my time
at Meta. Agreed on what you say about failure.
I think failing fast. We should kind of live
by just because failing means you're learning.
So if you're failing fast, you're learning fast
as well. Yeah, it's the same thing as like moving
abroad. It's scary what's going to happen. I
think that's even more, people feel that even
more in their career. And I do feel that to an
extent as well. But again, in the grand scheme
of things, we're going to be working quite for
quite a long time, most of us, right? So spending
two years at trying something out is, I would
say. Definitely worth it. Especially if you've
already got some experience under your belt.
Don't be scared to try new stuff. Try different
career paths. The last thing you want is to do
a career for 40 years that you don't like. It
doesn't have to be that way. Can you explain
us what you're doing now? Yes. So I currently
work in the analytics team. Analytics is a term
which is essentially leveraging data for insights,
I would say. So the role I do is very hands -on.
I spend, I would say... 80 % of my time coding
at the moment, which is very different from what
I was doing before and presenting data analysis
insights, et cetera. So we work very closely
with the leadership team. So if they have a problem
that needs solving, let's say they are thinking,
oh, should we buy this? Should we expand there?
We take that problem, dissect it, and we find
the right data. We do some analysis, some fitting,
et cetera. Most of it is quite math related.
And then you present those. back to the stakeholders.
So there are some skills I've learned from consulting
and meta that are always present because you
have to present to senior leadership, but it
combines the technical element as well. So it's
moving a lot more back into the direction of
individual contributor work, which is something
I wanted to do for a while, just really get back
into the meat of things. I would say that that
is not just coding. There's many tools you can
use for that. There is more visualization tools,
such as you probably heard of Tableau or Power
BI. But then there's a lot of that happens in
the backend. So staging data, doing more detailed
analysis, doing maybe regressions or fittings,
things like that. That is then more akin to the
development part of it. And do I want to do this
for the rest of my life? I don't know. I'm really
enjoying it at the moment, right? So yeah, that's
great. The industry is also quite different.
automated trading. So in the stock market, which
I knew nothing about. So the learning curve was
very steep, but I don't think it really matters
what industry you do. I really try to think,
okay, what type of job am I going to do? What
type of thinking am I going to do? And do I like
the environment around me? And I think the last
part is like, I really, really love my colleagues.
They're very smart. They're very hardworking,
but the hours are not crazy. So I have the really
good balance where you're doing interesting,
challenging work that doesn't require you to
work 80 hours per week. And I think that's...
For me, it's a perfect fit at least because it
does tend to happen where you pick very challenging
jobs, require you to almost give up your life
to just stand to that. Full circle moment where
we're going back to your definition of success,
right? That's very important for me. I really,
really do try to apply that in my... It can sometimes
be hard. Not to, for instance, I had an interview
and I knew that... the work hours were very intense.
I knew I would love, really like the job, but
it didn't marry with my version of success. And
I knew that in the end, I would not be happy.
And I'm not saying you should never do this.
Like if you're hungry and young, it's okay to
do this for a year or two, but I'm saying you
don't have to, and you don't fall on the strap
of doing this continuously because there will
always be a very exciting, challenging opportunity,
right? There will always be there. So really
try to balance the two. And if you do want to
do that, I would say, yeah, maybe do it earlier
in your career rather than later. We live in
a society where, especially lately, like this
hustle culture is becoming very prevalent. And
these things need to be looked at into perspective.
At the end of the day, it's about your happiness,
right? So how can you make yourself happy now
and tomorrow? So try to accomplish both. Thank
you for this brilliant advice, Lawrence. And
again, it goes back to, are you sharing the same
version of success than Lawrence? And if you
are... Think about it before seizing this new
opportunity. Try to understand what's the work
culture within the company you're applying for.
Reach out to the people working there. Reach
out to the people who left the company. Ask the
questions to allow you to make the best decision
for yourself. And to highlight something else
that Lauren said, don't stick to one industry.
If you have transferable skills, Go for that
new opportunity. That might match your new version
of success at a different age, different stage
of your life. Yeah, completely agree. Here we
go. Last question. What is your last piece of
advice for the people listening to us? I think,
I mean, I've said this many times. My one advice
is do hard things, like try hard things. Especially,
it's something that's given me the most results.
That doesn't mean you have to succeed. But like
coming to London as well, it was hard. But I
was just saying yes to everything. My first job
was saying yes to everything. And it does give
a lot back. So I would say try to do hard things.
It is usually rewarding. It will give you a sense
of satisfaction and will help you out in the
long term. And secondly, look after yourself
today as well. And don't just think about tomorrow.
Yeah, that's it really. I know we touched on
it a few times. Do take care of yourself. We'll
never say it enough. Thank you so much, Lawrence,
for everything that you shared with us today.
No, happy to be here. And I'm curious to listen
to the episode. Thank you for listening. And
I cannot wait to hear your thoughts about this
new episode. And I cannot wait to share the recap
next week. So I'll see you soon.