Hello and welcome to And you How Did You Make It,
the podcast in which we explore each step that
has built the carry part of various individuals,
through the discovery of their habits, passions,
interests over the few last decades. I'm Yusra,
your host, and today we meet Emina. Emina has
so far lived in five countries. Some can be seen
as a choice, others as her destiny, and others
the sum of her hard work. She graciously walk
us through the path of advice at each major step.
She puts herself in your shoes and takes your
hand to lift you as high as she can. As a Hayati
version bodies motivation, strength and drive.
Let's learn from her. Hi, Emina, and welcome
to the show. I'm so happy to have you with us
today. Hi, everyone. I'm so happy to be here
to discuss very important issues that I've been
passionate about since forever. I'm Emina. I
am originally from Bosnia -Herzegovina. I live
in Dublin and I work for Google as a policy lead
in the trust and safety space for over four years
now. I can't wait to share what to view to every
country you've lived in, what has been driving
you. But for now, I would love to hear what is
your definition of success. Oh yeah, for sure.
I would say my definition of success has evolved
over the years. When I was in school, before
I had any job yet, I've always strived to gain
financial independence, because for me, this
meant the freedom to make my own decisions. And
I'm very happy that I got there. Once you do
get there, though... spoiler alert, you realize
that it is not everything. And now I'd say a
very important element of success for me is finding
inner peace as well, which means less anxiety
about work, being more chill, being more present
in the moment, I think is something that A lot
of people neglect as not that important, but
it is really life consuming. And yeah, I'm sure
once you get there, you'll know what I mean.
Freedom to make your own decisions. This is such
an important aspect to success to me as well.
Thank you for sharing, Emina. And this is actually
something that you should keep in mind as we
are sharing every single story on the show. Okay,
so let's start with a deep dive on what has been
driving you as you were younger, the classes
you preferred, the interests you had. What can
you share with us? Just a little bit of context.
I was a refugee when I turned three years old
when the war started in Bosnia and we moved to
Germany where I started primary school until
the age of nine. And then I continued primary
school and we returned home. Now, irrespective
of my experience in either countries, what I
was always the most attracted to was arts and
crafting. And I could really spend hours on doing
extracurricular activities related to the creative
field. That was one. And the other was languages.
we started learning English in primary school.
German was my, although not my mother tongue,
was the first language I learned to read and
write. So yeah, I would add languages and literature
to that. And how often were you able to focus
on your interests? So I was doing it almost every
day to a point where my parents had to drag me
out of the house. to play with other kids on
the weekends. I would be so absorbed and just
consumed with the process. And it is to this
day, this one activity that makes me feel being
in the zone. So yeah, it was anything you can
imagine. Painting, creating with cardboard, with
all sorts of materials. Yeah, this is where my
height was. And were you able to incorporate
your interest in your day -to -day life, like
at school? Yeah. I mean, I remember always before
the start of a new school year, I would decorate
all my notebooks before. And a lot of friends
in my class would ask me to do the same for them.
Or if I would come up with something new, like
I would be interested in making bracelets, for
example. I was looking for opportunities to make
more of it, so I would offer to make it to friends
in class. I became very quickly known. Anything
related. Do you know why you started or how?
crafts and creativity impacted your school years?
Looking back, I would say I've always felt like
an outsider in school, both in primary and throughout
my education, because I started as a refugee
kid where I really, really wanted to fit in.
I was trying to have to speak as accent -free
as possible in German, to share as many interests
as possible with the, I wouldn't say the cool
kids, but with all the other kids who were from
there. And then the same happened when I returned
to my country, because I returned halfway through.
the school year and I didn't know anyone and
everyone already had friends and I was this new
person. So it was ingrained in me from a very
young age that I always have to do something
extra to compensate for my background. I've always
been a mix of introvert and extrovert. And my
introverted side has definitely flourished doing
all my creativity and craft projects. I was never
shy to share it with other people. I love how
you brought your crafts and creativity in school.
You already were building a whole identity for
yourself as someone who's not only a student
or new students. but also a creative individual
who had interests and sparked curiosity among
her peers. Did you realize it at the time? Do
you know if you're still doing this today? Yeah,
yeah, that's for sure. And I think this is something
that has defined not only my school years, but
later on my work life is that I have always thrived
to be more than just what my main occupation
is in that moment. I was always looking for activities
outside the mandatory classes or just outside
my line of work. I love how you explored that
at such a young age on what stimulates you and
couldn't urge more people to do that as well.
When I was younger, I used to practice more sports
and read more than doing anything on the creative
side, outside of the classes that we had in the
French system. Because I didn't think I was that
good, but now I'm trying to do it as often as
I can. It just calms your mind. I find it so
therapeutic and it allows you to forget on about
all the responsibilities that you have on the
side, at least for a while. Yes. You just focus
on the moment, on what you can create, what comes
to mind, how you feel. We talked about creativity
and languages and literature. Can you tell us
more about your background? So you were already
bilingual at the age of five, six? Yes. So when
I started school at six, I was already bilingual,
Bosnian and German. And then I became trilingual
with English probably towards the end of university.
Not through living abroad, but through school
and activities, international activities like
conferences and that kind of thing. And then
I added Spanish to it at this point, maybe eight
or seven years ago, just out of curiosity. But
in the meantime, I have married an Argentinian
man and I speak close to fluent Spanish with
my in -laws. So that was the last of my foreign
languages. I love what you just said right there.
you were able to become fluent in English when
you finished uni. Sometimes we think that we
need to travel regularly at a young age and be
exposed to the abroad and have more opportunity
to actually be exposed to those English native
speakers or just English speakers. But we don't
necessarily have the means to do that financially.
Absolutely. I was actually very old. into speaking
English fluently, when I learned that other people
did something called language courses between
semesters or during school times off, I had no
idea people did that. And even if I did, my financial
situation would have never allowed my parents
to do the same thing for me. So absolutely, you
don't have to leave your country to learn a foreign
language. couldn't agree more. Nowadays we are
so globalized and our access to resources is
so extensive that it would be just excuses if
you cannot learn Spanish, French, English or
any other languages. Yeah, I have friends now
who are learning Italian with a native speaker
just online. That's amazing. Okay, so you said
that you were a mix of extroverted, introverted...
Do you know what you wanted to do at that age
growing up? No, I didn't. And I never found the
answer to that question, not even to this day.
So whenever someone would ask me, what do you
want to be when you grow up? I would panic. I
would think that I have to know the answer. And
if I don't, then I'm already too late. Which
then later... which kind of guided me in choosing
my high school, which was a grammar school. So
it was not unlike all other high schools available
for me in Bosnia. It was not focused on any specific
profession or industry. And then university,
we'll talk later on about that, but it also informed
what I studied later on at university because
I always wanted to keep my options open, to do
something as broad as possible so that I have,
so that I keep my options open. You don't have
to have it figured out. I couldn't agree more.
And you change so much as you grow older as well.
The version of yourself at the age of 13 and
then moving into a high school would be different.
And as well as your interests, as you try to
explore more. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, there are
very, very few people in this world who stay
interested in the same thing and end up doing
just that, like someone who wanted to be a doctor
all their life, for example. But that's not how
reality works. And I think because we have this
idea that we have to pursue this one thing, this
makes us feel like a failure maybe if we halfway
through discover that, oh, actually, I don't
like this. I don't want to do this for the rest
of my life. But whoa, now I have invested all
these years and resources in it. I cannot just
give up. And that way of thinking just makes
you end up being very miserable in life. This
whole episode, you might just hear how much I
agree with Emina. But yes, I couldn't agree
more. You are putting so much pressure on yourself.
It might sound like, well, we are older and it
sounds a little bit easy for us to say that to
you, but the message that we hope you get from
it is that don't take things too seriously and
be curious and eager to learn as much as possible
as you're completely allowed to change your mind
on your interest and career path that which you
want to take and all you need are strong foundations
and drive, and then you can move from one to
another. Exactly. I wish I was told this when
I was very little, that you have the right to
change your mind. And it's not a failure if you
want to start over or if you change your mind.
And it's never too late. I think what everyone
will share with you on this show, on this podcast,
is that they were driven by curiosity, learnings,
and very excited to find mother interests. Most
of them were scared. but they will still jump
to take their next risk and to find what works
for them. But we'll get back to that, of course.
Okay, let's go back to your high school years.
What kind of students were you? Was it clearer
for you before going to uni on what you thought
you needed or wanted to do? So, I went to grammar
school, which... Usually, to get into grammar
school, you usually have to have very good grades
from primary school. And it's a rather competitive
environment. I was always chasing the best grades
throughout my education. I was still interested
in art. My interest in languages persisted. My
interest in history increased. I wrote my final
thesis in high school on the second world war.
I got, I started to develop a strong interest
in politics at the time as well. So I'd say that
creative and art side of me shifted a little.
However, until my final year at grammar school,
I did not know what I want to study and I was
changing my mind. My options were diplomacy,
politics, journalism. I guess the reason why
I was drawn to these was because I liked talking
publicly, like I like being on the stage. Not
that I did a lot of it, but this is something
that energized me, let's say. And then instead
of all of these, I chose law. I guess my thinking
was law is the most serious out of these, has
the best potential of turning into a good income
for me down the line while still keeping options
open because there's so many careers I can do
with law. Which I think I was a little naive
at the time about, but that was the thinking.
And do you remember why you were interested in
politics, diplomacy, history? Maybe I will first
start by saying that I discarded the idea of
going into a creative field because although
my heart was very much in it, I could not imagine
it as a serious career at the time. And so I
was looking for something more serious, quote
unquote. We were involved in some projects in
the grammar school that were around human rights,
around awareness about how politics affects your
life. I think that project was going on when
I was in the second year in grammar school. And
through that project, We got to meet some politicians,
some journalists. So that was one reason why
my interest grew. And the other one was I was
a lot involved in working for an NGO during the
time as a volunteer. And this was a youth organization
and we did projects with There are some UN agencies
still in Bosnia who stayed there after the war
and they're investing a lot in projects for,
still do projects for young people. So because
I was now in touch with people who do this type
of work, I started imagining myself doing something
similar. So I guess it was exposure to people
in that field. And at the same time. a lack of
exposure of people who made art work for themselves.
Yes, I was about to ask you if you had a chance
to be exposed to people working in creative fields.
That makes so much sense. I'm so glad you had
the opportunity to be exposed to different fields.
It's very difficult to have this opportunity
to be to have access to passionate individuals
who have the time to share at least a glimpse
of the work that they are doing and to inspire
us to be one of them. And it is an even greater
opportunity to discover new jobs out there which
could match our interests and passions. I do
hope this podcast feels part of this need. 100%,
I think very few of us have the opportunity to
actually understand what a job entails practically
on a day -to -day basis before we make this huge
decision of studying that field. We, I at least,
ended up making my decision based on the idea
I had of what that um, course, uh, or this university
could give me back as a career, but I never,
never really saw the, the, um, how it looks in
real life. Maybe I also to add to it, I kind
of had the idea looking at the example of my
parents of what I did not want for my job to
look like. Um, I was looking at my dad. My dad
is a veterinarian who is basically available
24 -7. He works with big animals. All our life,
he would be called up at three in the morning
if needed for emergencies, et cetera. So looking
at that, I knew I wanted a stable office job,
nine to five, where I have my weekends. where
I don't have to think too much about the job
once I've closed my computer. My mom, she worked
in an office and this is why I waited in for
myself. I would prefer office to what my dad
does, but my mom was an accountant and I found
that very, very boring. So I was like, I'm definitely
not doing economics, but if I can do an office
job, That also entails now all of these other
things I talked about, you know, maybe human
rights, maybe public speaking. Maybe I can go
in that direction. Makes so much sense. It's
also super interesting because again, it shows
that you were able to pick from what you could
see firsthand. So to just have a quick call out
to the people who are listening to us. please
reach out to me through social media for me to
ask the question that you wish you could ask
to diverse professionals to get the most out
of those episodes but yes again couldn't agree
more Emina unless you get the chance to have a
family members or friends or family members or
your parents friends who proactively come to
you and welcome you into their sphere to tell
you all about it how can you know what you want
and don't want to do Oh, yes. And I would say,
please don't limit your options just based on
what your parents advise you, because it's so
funny looking back now. At some point, I was
thinking about studying IT, maybe programming,
because we had just started in grammar school,
learning programming languages. And my dad told
me, why would you study that? Everyone will know
how to use a computer in the future anyways.
So for context, I went to high school in the
early 2000s. It was very, very different. We
had one big PC in our kitchen. So, and I didn't
really bother getting too much into that. Like
that explanation at the time I found reasonable.
Yes, because the older generation will always
share advice from the extent of their own knowledge.
This is where we call out again to be curious
and do your own research as it's impossible for
our parents, for the people around us to know
everything about all sectors that exist. And
there are so many new different opportunities
as well, you know, like technologies challenging
the way we approach different things. So there
are new jobs coming up. and new skills that are
needed. So never stop exploring and researching.
Because if Emina had the chance to meet journalists
and other professionals and make a decision.
So if your high school and higher education programs
do not bring you professional to meet, it's on
you to look for them into social media platforms,
on YouTube, on everywhere you can actually find
to enroll. testimonies and shamelessly do listen
to this show. Okay, so moving on to your volunteering
experiences in high school, Emina, can you tell
us more about them? How many hours were you spending?
So let me start by saying that I was very limited
with what I can do after school. back home in
Bosnia in my small town. A lot of kids my age,
primary, middle and high school would already
go to clubs, partying. There was not really much
out there like there is today, I would say. Now
you can go and do robotics after school. None
of this was available to me. The only thing that
was available was youth clubs that were run by
volunteers and funded by foreign NGOs. And these
youth clubs would organize events such as sporting
events on the weekend for kids or we would go
and clean the riverbank or we would get some
funds that we could allocate to projects that
kids our age could apply for. So at one point
we were reconstructing a playground like all
together. It was a lot of it was very hands -on.
And then through these NGOs, I continued being
active at university as well. I was then able
to travel. to youth conferences. And those were
my first, but really my first interactions with
people my age outside my country. One of the
opportunities to practice English as well. And
yeah, these experiences were really eye -opening.
I would urge everyone to join these if you're
able to in your towns. This is so interesting.
So you must have learned so much during that
time. Yeah, sure. Like from like very technical
skills such as project management and preparing
a budget for things like a playground reconstruction
to public speaking, building teams, working in
a team. Oh, for sure. Like real life, real life
experiences there. That's incredible at such
a young age. So now that you've learned about
those years, you're now invited to apply to higher
education. Can you tell us more about it? So
I ended up with law school because I didn't know
what I, what I want to be when I grow up. And
I, I chose the law because I knew people who
did law school and then ended up in different.
careers, I was thinking, okay, if I want to become
a diplomat, I can do this through law school.
Maybe I actually like the essence of it and I
become an attorney or I become a judge. My reasoning
was also if I want to work in an international
organization, a lot of people with law background
do exactly that. Yeah. this is how I made that
decision. I found it the least limiting of all
the other options. And I thought because law
school is four years in Bosnia, I will have four
more years until I finish university to explore
and figure out what kind of jobs I will want
to apply for later on. Can you tell us maybe
what kind of personality would be a good fit?
For law? Oh, it was such a mixed bunch in law
school. And now when I reflect on where people
on my course ended, I'd say half of them ended
becoming actually attorneys. And the other half
went, me included, branched out in different
things from a friend who is now a photographer.
to me, working in policy, and then another friend
working for the UN. So it's really, really a
mix of personalities that law works for. But
for those who went into hardcore law, like in
the law practice, those were very confident and
strong personalities. Not necessarily You don't
have to have the best grades to become the best
attorney. I have friends who went into academics
with the law, and this is something I explored
as well. And if you want to go that way, having
grades and having this academic rigor is great.
From my experience, it was necessary to be successful
later on. So what we can take from that is wherever
you are an introvert, extrovert, confident or
not, you can be successful in law school. Can
you share a bit more reflections about your choice
as well as you wanted to work in a specific environment?
Yes. Yes. And I would say in that regard, I was
right with my initial instinct of choosing law
where I think I made a mistake. I saw myself
working in an international organization on something
that is pan -national. And that was tricky with
law because I realized if I want to actually
be a lawyer with what I learned in law school,
I'm bound to my country because laws are national.
So that was really limiting for me. If I wanted
to actually be a lawyer in Germany, for example,
I would have had to study law all over again.
So I did end up working now in policy in international
environment. I'm here in Dublin. in the most
diverse Google office in the world, but that's
not because I do law. So it was helpful having
that background, not because of the academics,
but more because I learned a lot of life skills
through my career later on, working as a lawyer.
I discovered though that Like the law field in
itself the way I studied it was too limiting
for what I developed my interest in later on
So, yeah, I think you have to balance these two
If you really love law You might be limited to
the country where you study that law unless you
want to do a take on a crazy amount of effort
to change that working in another country. Like
really do your research on what kind of law are
you interested in? There are fields of law that
are less limiting. But if your dream is to be
a litigator or a judge, you will have to stay
where you are, most likely. Thank you, Emina,
for the insight. So crucial to know and look
into the different paths. in low school to make
sure that it aligns with your goals. And if you
want to keep your options open, do make sure
that you're going towards the right path. Oh,
what kind of students were you, by the way? Oh,
so I was an extremely dedicated student. Like
a proper overachiever. I had the top grades.
I was... in the top 1 % in my generation. And
at the same time, I was truly enjoying studying.
I really loved everything I studied. And I continued
to follow all sorts of interests outside law
school as well. I did not want to be bound just
by the field. As I said, this is something that
follows me my entire life. To this day, I always
have in the back of my mind an expectation that,
okay, this year I have to have an additional
achievement outside my area of work. So during
law school, I would apply to all possible student
activities I could, such as international conferences,
summer schools. Uh, like summer law schools,
I would travel with my, with an NGO that I was
working for. Um, yeah. So I, I was very diligent
making sure that I finished all my exams in time.
I have never had to repeat any exam. Um, so that
I have my summer free. So between the two semesters
in Bosnia, you have If you finish all your exams
in June, I think you'll be free until October.
So yeah, so I would spend a lot of time making
sure I will finish all my exams in time. And
then I would spend the time in between on traveling.
A lot of it with scholarships. So again, the
financial restraints led me to applying to all
of these programs. And it's these programs for
students. that enabled me actually to see the
world while I was a student. I found surprised
that you were a high achiever. Can you tell us
more about the scholarships? Were you eligible
because you were a strong student? And how did
you find them? So now I'm sure everything is
online at the time. So that's the 2000, I started
university 2008. Around that time, it was a mix
of, I would research everything I could on the
internet, anything. I would search for any opportunities
for students from Bosnia specifically, and I
would only look at opportunities with covering
all expenses. That's something that was very
important. And so I ended up... I ended up doing,
for example, I think it was two summers in a
row doing a two -week summer school in Austria
on European Union law, which I was super passionate
about, conferences around reconciliation in the
former Yugoslavia, the human rights aspect and
international criminal law I was interested in.
And then I also discovered that The year I started
university, Erasmus, which I'm sure everyone
studying in Europe is aware of, Erasmus actually
for the first time opened the opportunity for
Bosnian students to visit some of the universities
in Europe. And I immediately took the chance
and devoted a long time into perfecting my application
for that. And then I got... got that scholarship
to study one semester in Germany. So I would
say it's a mix of doing my own research online,
looking at notice boards at the university, and
then it also is kind of one thing leads to the
other because you go off to the first thing,
you meet people. This is how you build your network,
especially if you don't have it to begin with.
You will meet people who will tell you of this
other thing that you then also apply for. I mean,
my siblings and my friends to this day make fun
of me of how much I was chasing all these applications.
I was applying all the time, applying and reapplying.
Like I didn't really shy away from being rejected
one year and then reapplying again the next year.
to go to these conferences and to have all these
experiences. So this would be really my biggest
advice to all of you. Don't limit yourself to
academic excellence because your life will be
so much richer if you use your free time for
all these other things. This is something I really
don't regret investing time in at the time. and
couldn't agree more, there are so many learnings
there. First, do get those scholarships, study
abroad, get those experiences, those internships.
Second thing, try, try, try again. And if it
doesn't work, take it as a redirection and try
again later as Emina rightfully did and trust
the process. I know it's easier said than done,
but trust the process. And the third thing is,
You need to go above and beyond academics because
going on the field allows you to understand if
you actually like it. And if you don't like it,
you can actually reflect on it and see what was
missing from that experience and change and decide
to do something different. Lastly, if you are
getting more experienced, it is going to be easier
for you to find the next internship, the next
job and even better. to launch your own company.
100%. I think you would be surprised how many
of these opportunities are out there that are
fully covered financially. I really did not have
to ask my parents for to finance any of it. And
I didn't have to work either for it. Please don't
think that you wouldn't be picked anyways if
you apply. You don't know until you apply. Remember
the number of motivation letters I had to write
in my lifetime. And you guys now have chat GPT
to help you with. Exactly. Now you have all the
tools that you need to start applying everywhere.
So moving after law school, what happened? So
in my final year at law school, I started again
doing my research on scholarships for master
degrees. master's degrees, and I got the scholarship
of the German government to study German and
European law in Berlin, Humboldt University.
Again, a fully covered scholarship that my parents
didn't have to contribute to. And during that
year in Germany, following my passion for that
field of law, I learned about something called
the Blue Book Traineeship in the European Commission.
This is a really unique experience for graduates
to work in the institutions of the EU in Brussels.
And there's a very small quota that they accept
from non -EU countries. Bosnia is still not in
the European Union. So I didn't have high hopes,
but I gave my all for that application, I can
tell you. And I got in. So I finished my bachelor's,
then I finished my master's degree, and then
I did my traineeship, six months traineeship
in Brussels in the European Commission. And that
was my first work experience. Like I have never
worked until that point. And how was that experience
at the EU Commission? That was life -changing,
really. I was working with people who are doing
exactly what I was studying for years, European
Union Law. And I met people I worked with from
all around the world. And with many of them,
I'm still in touch. So there was this element
of having a really great group of friends there.
It was one of the very few experiences where
my expectations really matched reality or reality
exceeded because I had a great team that I worked
with there. It really sparked interest in me
to apply for a full -time position. It wasn't
possible because of my passport limitation. And
I did not want to stay in Brussels on limiting
contracts. So the alternative to a full -time
position is being a contractor and then potentially
extending these contracts. I did not want to
go into that. In the meantime, I got an offer
for my first full -time position in a law firm
back home. I returned to Bosnia. and then worked
for the next five years in an international corporate
law firm. The Blue Book traineeship in Brussels
is receiving so many applications every year.
So congrats for making it. Sounds like it exceeded
your expectation. exceed your expectation because
of the team you had or the responsibilities you
were given or a mix of both? So I would, first
of all, I would say talking to other people who
did that same traineeship, the experiences were
very mixed. So some people didn't like it at
all because they were not given any responsibilities.
They were not given, they did not feel they were
contributing. In my case with my manager at the
time, I really felt like what I contributed to
mattered. I was, for example, I was writing drafts
that were then submitted to the European Court
in Strasbourg. And I was with my manager going,
I went to a hearing there. And I would say the
cherry on top was months after I finished my
internship. My manager called me to tell me that
this paper that I wrote on a case where the European
Commission was involved, which contained arguments
that I came up with, that this was accepted by
the court, that the court followed basically
my arguments in that particular case and he wanted
me to know this like he had no he did not have
to let me know right but he did that so that
i could fully understand how much they appreciated
my work and that is really incredible like to
this day i i haven't had such an experience What
a lovely gesture. You must have been so proud.
Understand why it was a great experience. Yeah,
for sure. I would add also one learning I had
through this is always stay in touch with these
people. It's been over 10 years or more. I don't
even want to count. But I'm still in touch with
my manager from the time. And not just him, I'm
still in touch with loads of people that I interned
for. In the last couple of years, maybe I slowed
down a little with that. I should go back to
it, but I had the habit of wishing them a happy
new year, wishing them happy holidays, just checking
in. And this is for one, you're doing this to
continue this relationship. And then on the other
hand. I was able from these people to get references
years later for applications. So this manager
from my 2013, I think was it internship in the
European commission, wrote me a reference in
2018. So what is that six? seven, six years later,
sorry, now I was getting mad, because we stayed
in touch. So this person brought me a reference
later on for a second master's degree that I
did a couple of years ago. Yeah, so please take
this advice and stay in touch with these people.
It's also a way to show gratefulness for everything
that it did for you. Exactly. Thank you, Emina,
for this reminder. And moving into what you just
mentioned, you decided to pursue a second master
degree. Tell us everything about it. So after
working five years in corporate law, halfway
through that period, I realized that I no longer
find it interesting. And it is not the direction
I want to take for the rest of my career. And
I needed a break to research what I am actually
interested in. I didn't know where I want to
go, but I knew that corporate law is no longer
it. And I did not see myself becoming an attorney.
That was like the next step. So I applied for
the Chevening Scholarship, that's the scholarship
of the UK government. I applied the first time,
didn't get it, applied for the second time and
then it worked out. With this scholarship I studied
a degree called Leadership, Innovation and Creativity
at Cass Business School in London and now it's
called the BAE Business School. It was an interdisciplinary
course combining law, business, technology, acting,
and creative writing. It was amazing. It was
the first time I was studying with having had
work experience with people who have been in
the work field for much longer than me. So people,
some people were decades older than me, for instance.
from different industries, learning on what sparks
creativity, how do organizations innovate effectively,
and how technology can be used for this. And
one learning I had from this is that a master's
degree is way more useful after you have had
work experience. Definitely. First of all, you
will choose WISER. your degree. And secondly,
you will get more out of it. Yeah. And then this
degree, I was doing it not knowing what the next
steps will be for me. The plan was to start applying
for internships maybe, just new jobs that were
completely out of my comfort zone and unrelated
to my previous work experience. Absolutely. gap
years should be taken in the form of internship,
work, travel, volunteering. If you can take it
between your bachelor's programs or master programs,
it actually helps you reflect instead of rushing
into the next ring. Definitely. If we look back,
what was missing from your corporate law experience?
The work environment was too rigid, too much
hierarchy, very old school. So I guess I was
craving more flexibility, a more modern workspace.
And that's one thing. The other thing is I was
just still craving an international experience
and more international environment. I've always
wanted to work with people from all around the
world and working in that specific law firm gave
me an element of it because I worked with foreign
clients. So I did work regularly in English and
German, but it wasn't enough. It didn't feel
enough. Well, that's, and then the third element,
obviously just the, the content of my work. I
was no longer interested in setting up companies,
helping with mergers and acquisitions. I never
found joy in that. It's quite difficult to admit
to yourself to look outside of that work. You
have the comfort, you have the stability. It
did shake more or less the expectation that you
had at the time and it aligned with your studies.
Exactly. It's like you have done everything right.
You finally got the job that you were studying
for. You have a good salary. Everything is stable.
What more should you even want to crave for?
So how did you manage to move away from that?
Oh yeah, like it was not that easy at all. On
the outside, maybe, yes, but internally, it was
such a mental struggle. It was really, really
tough not knowing what's going to happen next
because when you stay in your lane, you know
what's going to come next. You know in advance
the next stages in your career. attorney, associate,
partner, it's easy. When you get out of that
lane and out of an environment where everyone
else around you is doing the same, because usually
your friends are from university and you have
very little contact with people who do something
different. So it was very scary. I'm not going
to lie. We might sometimes sound pretty chill
on these podcasts about the decisions that are
being made. But it is scary, and you're more
than allowed to be scared about any new thing
that you're trying to start. Of course. It might
mean that you're doing something right. Exactly.
Couldn't be more. You're doing things differently,
and what you might be scared of is probably the
failure aspect, but seeing it as a learning path,
learning experience, learning... can bring a
new perspective and give you the push that you
need to start. You will learn, exactly. Yeah,
I don't think that any one of us regrets trying
something. Exactly. Even if it didn't work out.
I think I've always been scared of having these
what -ifs in my life. Oh, what if I try this
or that? And when I assess that a situation could
be a what if, that that kind of gives me strength
to go for it. Yeah, and living with regrets might
be more difficult, right? Oh, yeah, definitely.
Like, especially when you're in these very early
years out of university. One of my regrets is
staying too long in the same job. Really, like
you should go out and try it all out and experiment.
Couldn't agree more. So now that you've reached
the end of your second master's program, you're
looking for an internship, which is more difficult
than expected. What happened next? Yes. So it's
more difficult than expected because I'm still
in London on a student visa that is about to
expire and no one wants to sponsor interns. So
I'm struggling there. And while I am constantly
working on new applications, I get a message
on LinkedIn. A recruiter is asking me if I'm
interested in a position at Google. And I think
it's a scam, but I still respond. And then they
asked me to submit my CV and they have more questions.
And I start realizing, whoa, this could actually
be the real thing. And it's for the position
that I'm that I'm in to this day. But at the
time, I had no idea that there was an industry
called Trust and Safety. I had no idea that my
background could fit into that industry. And
spoiler alert, it actually does. I started the
interviewing process without knowing anyone in
Big Tech. I think that was a huge mental obstacle
for me at the beginning. I thought I didn't have
anyone to rely on. There was no one. Obviously
I wasn't referred. That was something that's
done very often in Big Tech. So my only resource
was the internet. I prepared with YouTube. It's
insane how many HR specialists are out there.
Giving you all the details you need about how
to respond those behavioral questions and like
oh like You you will understand the entire process
by watching YouTube videos Yeah, and so that
that was the result I relied on I went through
five or six interviews. I don't remember at this
stage Three months in they sponsored my visa
to come to Ireland And then, yeah, I moved here
with the one gap that was the pandemic where
I couldn't come here. But yeah, I finally did.
And now I'm here for almost five years. First,
thank you, Google, for bringing you here and
for our past, of course. And thank you, Emina,
for sharing how much knowledge is available online.
And that all interviews are all about preparation
and how much effort you're putting into it. Because
then if it doesn't work and you're not getting
hired, it's very much on something that you cannot
control because you gave everything you could.
100%. So I was lucky that this interview process
started after I had submitted my master's thesis.
So I really had time to dedicate. to it full
-time and I really did. It was a full -time job.
I would wake up in the middle of the night with
ideas and examples on how to respond to the top
10 questions that might come up. The anxiety
was gone once I had this process in place, once
I had my schedule and I knew I was really working
towards a schedule and that after the first interview
was very, very scary. But then it got easier.
So that goes to show that, first of all, you
are much better than you think you are. You have
way more competence than you think you are. Especially
if you're a woman, you are probably limiting
yourself by at least 50 % by not applying. Because
I would have never applied for this role. I would
have never thought I'm good enough. That's one.
And then the other thing is... Not having inside
context or an insider network is also not the
end of the world. You can prepare for it completely
by yourself. People are trying countless times
before getting the job that they want. So do
not hesitate to send your application as many
times as you can. Oh yeah. So many of my colleagues
at my job have applied so many times before they
got in. Like honestly, don't get discouraged
by the first rejection. And expect the first
rejection rather. Exactly. And women tend to
apply less to jobs where they don't check all
the boxes of the job offers. So keep in mind
to try and see where it takes you. Especially
if you're a higher tier with great grades, you
are used to reaching 100%. So if you see a job
listing, where you only take 70 % of the bullet
points, you will likely not apply. And that's
a mistake because those bullet points are not
there because they're a wish list. It doesn't
mean that anyone who applies is going to fulfill
all of that. Exactly. And if you see yourself
somewhere, just go for it. Even if you see yourself
remotely there, try and you'll see. Worst case
scenario, you learn from it. Exactly. So just
one example. When the recruiter shared with me
the job posting, asking if I was interested for
it, and some of the requirements were something
about language requirements, the only thing I
remember was I saw that, well, but wait, I don't
fulfill that requirement. And I asked the recruiter,
But are you sure? Because I don't fulfill that
specific requirement. The Twitter is like, yeah,
we are like, no worries, just send us your CV.
So that's definitely a learning that you should
not take that posting too literally. Unfortunately,
having to wrap up this conversation. Do you have
any last advice you want to share with us? Maybe
I would just... leave you with learning. A career
coach once told me something I tried still to
incorporate in myself, which is, don't you ever
think that you are going to reach that one job
eventually? There is no one job that is, we're
not that generation anymore. You're not going
to be at that one job forever. Just expect and
prepare yourself mentally that your interests
will keep changing and something that was your
dream job might not be anymore after a couple
of years. Yeah, just be prepared that you will
go out there in search for something new and
you will do that until you retire and maybe you
don't want to retire. Hopefully for you who are
listening to us, you'll find something that sparks
joy and that drives you and stimulates you. So
hopefully one of the following episodes, or this
one, allows you to identify something that can
align with your interests. And if it's not yet,
looking forward to sharing more with you. Thank
you so much, Emina. Thank you for all the pieces
of advice that you shared and all the wisdom.
Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me.
And yeah, I just hope that your listeners get
the chance to hear all this advice. I needed
years of, yeah, years of life experience to get
to. And I hope they hear it much earlier on than
I did. Thank you, Emina. Thank you everyone for
listening. Please do reach out. On social media,
if you want to learn more, if you have any questions,
if you wish I had, ask different questions because
I can ask them to the next person I'm interviewing.