WEBVTT 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:06.019 (Music in the background) Welcome to Rhythms of Progress, where we explore 00:00:06.019 --> 00:00:09.880 how music and artists are the unsung heroes of 00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:13.660 political movements and social advancement. I'm 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:18.800 your host, Shozzett, a .k .a. Lizzard Silva. With 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:21.960 me is my all -time favorite co -host and engineer, 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:27.920 (Cat purring) (Cat mews) Stoney Boney. Say hello, Stoney Boney. Oh, she's 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.879 so cute. Today we are exploring the world of 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:36.259 disco and how this electrifying 1970s genre became 00:00:36.259 --> 00:00:39.060 a cultural movement that united marginalized 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:42.439 communities, not only on the dance floor, but 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:47.740 also through fashion. Disco music created a space 00:00:47.740 --> 00:00:50.899 for people to express themselves, but it also 00:00:50.899 --> 00:00:54.280 became pivotal to the LGBTQIA plus community 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:59.130 and movement. Was it the music? The fashion? 00:00:59.789 --> 00:01:02.729 Or was it because disco gave people the courage 00:01:02.729 --> 00:01:05.829 to dress up and be playful while fighting oppression 00:01:05.829 --> 00:01:09.650 with a really good baseline? To help us explore 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:12.870 this journey, Stoney and I are thrilled to welcome 00:01:12.870 --> 00:01:15.790 PhD student from the University of Delaware, 00:01:16.049 --> 00:01:19.349 Jeff Illes. Jeff grew up during the disco era 00:01:19.349 --> 00:01:22.409 and experienced the movement and social change 00:01:22.409 --> 00:01:25.250 in the queer community. Welcome to the show, 00:01:25.269 --> 00:01:29.010 Jeff. Hi, thanks for having me. So disco emerged 00:01:29.010 --> 00:01:32.230 in the early 1970s. How do you define disco, 00:01:32.370 --> 00:01:36.370 and how did it become intertwined with the LGBTQIA 00:01:36.370 --> 00:01:39.989 plus community? Wow, what a great question. Thank 00:01:39.989 --> 00:01:44.549 you. I think the way that I defined disco music 00:01:44.549 --> 00:01:50.670 is that particular beat. And I'm not a musician, 00:01:50.870 --> 00:01:53.010 and so I don't know what the technical term is 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:56.530 for that particular number of beats per measure. 00:01:57.129 --> 00:02:01.170 But it certainly, most disco music had that particular 00:02:01.170 --> 00:02:04.269 same beat. And then there were a variety of tracks 00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:08.469 that were overlaid, vocal tracks, instrumentals, 00:02:08.469 --> 00:02:10.949 et cetera, that all went on that. But it had 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:15.449 a particular rhythmic quality to it that was 00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:19.409 very different from rock or jazz, what we think 00:02:19.409 --> 00:02:23.090 of as traditional sort of ballad, sort of soft 00:02:23.090 --> 00:02:26.259 music. And so it had that driving beat, sort 00:02:26.259 --> 00:02:29.740 of a heartbeat. And that heartbeat really did 00:02:29.740 --> 00:02:33.819 become a very big part of what I'll call the 00:02:33.819 --> 00:02:37.180 gay community from that time period, because 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:40.240 that was the term that I used the most during 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:44.379 the 70s and 80s as we started to move forward. 00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:49.280 Obviously, we added all those other great initials 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.080 to represent the full kaleidoscope of the community. 00:02:53.770 --> 00:02:56.750 Yeah, the gay community identified very strongly 00:02:56.750 --> 00:03:01.830 with disco and disco music because it was a social 00:03:01.830 --> 00:03:07.550 music. People got together, as you said, it had 00:03:07.550 --> 00:03:10.650 to do with fashion. They dressed up, they wore 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:13.530 particular clothing, but it was really people 00:03:13.530 --> 00:03:18.250 getting together in spaces to experience that 00:03:18.250 --> 00:03:22.759 beat and music in a social setting. That became 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:27.419 sort of the heart of bars and nightclubs in and 00:03:27.419 --> 00:03:30.139 around the gay community and all communities, 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:33.860 really, in the country. You mentioned the beats, 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:36.560 but what about the atmosphere made you feel safe 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:41.460 to express yourself? That social aspect of safety 00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:46.180 in numbers. It was in these places, these, you 00:03:46.180 --> 00:03:50.330 know. gathering spaces, nightclubs, after -hours 00:03:50.330 --> 00:03:53.530 clubs, private clubs. You know, at that time 00:03:53.530 --> 00:03:57.189 period, gay people didn't dance with each other 00:03:57.189 --> 00:04:00.189 anywhere else. The only place you could sort 00:04:00.189 --> 00:04:03.189 of hang out and be with your people was either 00:04:03.189 --> 00:04:07.710 in a gay bar or a private club or a gay nightclub. 00:04:07.990 --> 00:04:10.930 At that time in my life living here in Delaware, 00:04:11.150 --> 00:04:14.169 there were very few spaces where it would have 00:04:14.169 --> 00:04:17.790 been socially acceptable or safe. for two men 00:04:17.790 --> 00:04:20.870 or two women to dance together on the dance floor, 00:04:21.069 --> 00:04:23.550 you know, unless you were at an old -fashioned 00:04:23.550 --> 00:04:26.529 wedding and, you know, you were family members 00:04:26.529 --> 00:04:29.810 or cousins or something crazy like that. So in 00:04:29.810 --> 00:04:34.009 the 1970s, you grew up in Delaware. I was a new 00:04:34.009 --> 00:04:38.269 student at the University of Delaware in my first 00:04:38.269 --> 00:04:43.889 trip to the university in 1975. So, yeah. Can 00:04:43.889 --> 00:04:46.129 you describe a bit of the political climate during 00:04:46.129 --> 00:04:50.829 that time? Well, the political climate was not 00:04:50.829 --> 00:04:55.730 very accepting. There wasn't a lot of tolerance 00:04:55.730 --> 00:05:01.269 of homosexuality in general during that time 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:04.790 period. So everything was very much, you know, 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:07.670 very much on the down low. People led double 00:05:07.670 --> 00:05:11.069 lives. They led secret lives. You were one way 00:05:11.069 --> 00:05:14.579 most of the time. And when you could go to those 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:19.180 safe places or safe spaces, then you could be 00:05:19.180 --> 00:05:23.879 who you really were. And in Delaware itself, 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.339 there were not many places like that. Fortunately, 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.560 nearby Philadelphia, a much bigger city, which 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.060 had a lot of venues where you could either get 00:05:37.060 --> 00:05:39.540 together just to hang out with other gay people, 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:43.120 where there was, you know, always... music in 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.579 the background, even if they didn't have a dance 00:05:45.579 --> 00:05:48.259 floor. And I would say 99 % of the time that 00:05:48.259 --> 00:05:52.199 was disco music. But there were also just nightclubs, 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:55.720 private clubs. One of the biggest in Philadelphia 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.699 and most popular in, I'd say, in the early or 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:03.600 mid -70s was a club called Equus. But there was 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.360 Rainbows. There was a private club called the 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:10.100 DCA. Later, there was a club called the Catacombs. 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:15.259 a much more progressive private club called the 00:06:15.259 --> 00:06:21.000 Black Banana, which played many, many forms of 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:25.160 interesting rhythmic music, not necessarily just 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:30.339 that standard hardcore disco song beat that you 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:32.839 think of, but they would have had funk and house 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:38.040 and very early other forms of music that generated 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.180 from rhythm. that brought people into association 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:46.139 with one another. Comparing the disco era to 00:06:46.139 --> 00:06:48.459 now, do you think there's still oppression for 00:06:48.459 --> 00:06:50.459 being who you are? Where do you think we are 00:06:50.459 --> 00:06:53.839 politically and musically with all of this? That's 00:06:53.839 --> 00:07:00.560 a big question, frankly. So let me try to address 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:05.459 it in a couple of ways. Personally, as a white 00:07:05.459 --> 00:07:12.079 cisgender male, who identifies as gay. There 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:16.339 is much more inclusion and tolerance, and the 00:07:16.339 --> 00:07:26.040 stigma of being gay and being out is pretty non 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.139 -existent. And I think that's the case. Most 00:07:30.139 --> 00:07:33.839 people would probably say that's the case. I 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:37.839 don't think, if you asked most gay people. or 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.680 people from the queer community across the range 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.720 of the alphabet, that everyone would feel that 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:51.019 way. Because there are certainly just as many 00:07:51.019 --> 00:07:56.720 efforts to oppress people from across the spectrum 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:00.899 of the queer community today as there were then. 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:04.740 The difference is I think they were much more 00:08:04.740 --> 00:08:11.480 institutionalized. in a much broader sense. Those 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:17.120 powers had much more control in local, county, 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:22.819 state, and federal governments than they do today. 00:08:22.939 --> 00:08:25.920 There are more protections. There is more tolerance. 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:29.560 There is more visibility. There is more understanding 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:34.299 within families, you know, that there are differences 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:38.940 in orientation. among folks. And so it's not 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:44.259 quite like it was. The hardest part for me as 00:08:44.259 --> 00:08:49.840 a person from this community now is to see the 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:55.399 transphobia and to see the push to recriminalize 00:08:55.399 --> 00:09:02.460 certain individuals based on them embracing their 00:09:02.460 --> 00:09:06.200 authenticity. and trying to live their lives 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:11.279 in authentic ways. And it feels more like what 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:15.620 it felt like then in the 70s and 80s to be in 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:18.580 the fight, to be recognized that you had the 00:09:18.580 --> 00:09:23.120 same rights to be who you are as anyone. I feel 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:25.539 like that is the same fight. It's an extension 00:09:25.539 --> 00:09:29.580 of it. Frankly, I hope more and more people get 00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:35.080 behind the trans rights movement. And if you 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.860 ever need help, here are two resources. More 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:41.840 are linked in the episode notes. thetrevorproject 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.440 .org is 100 % confidential and free to LGBTQIA 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:51.759 plus young people. And transequality .org where 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:56.039 you can find legal resources. Rhythms of Progress 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.759 is not sponsored by these organizations, but 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:00.759 you deserve to know what is available for you. 00:10:01.419 --> 00:10:04.720 And seriously, you are not alone. I know it may 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.759 feel that way sometimes, but you are not. And 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.220 if anyone says otherwise, send them our way. 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:14.899 Stoney wears many hats. She has a PhD in psychology. 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.399 But first, they must have a snack. Then the therapy 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:25.200 begins. Speaking of... Being oppressed in the 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.720 1970s, there was a disco demolition night, which 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.179 is a way of oppressing a community and many communities 00:10:32.179 --> 00:10:36.080 in Chicago with radio DJ Steve Dahl. And the 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.519 disco demolition happened at Kaminsky Park. You 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:40.259 remember hearing about that and how it might 00:10:40.259 --> 00:10:43.980 have made you feel? Absolutely. Frankly, I thought 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:47.940 a lot of it had to do with racism because one 00:10:47.940 --> 00:10:51.919 of the, interestingly enough, you know, the music 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:56.080 industry and disco itself, there was just an 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.100 amazing number of Black musicians and performers 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:05.519 that were creating that music. Musicians at every 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.720 level, producers, singers, writers, you know, 00:11:09.740 --> 00:11:14.539 all sorts of folks. The backlash, I feel like, 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:20.399 was in some part caused by the crossovers like 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.340 the Bee Gees, KC and the Sunshine Band, and a 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:30.700 couple of other acts that then dominated mainstream 00:11:30.700 --> 00:11:36.500 radio. Once that music that was, you know, sort 00:11:36.500 --> 00:11:41.960 of the Wonder Bread version of the disco that 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.620 my friends and I were dancing to in clubs hit 00:11:45.620 --> 00:11:48.820 the airwaves, and that's all you ever heard when 00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:51.860 you turned on the radio. the whole Saturday Night 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:56.259 Fever, et cetera, experience. That is when I 00:11:56.259 --> 00:12:02.220 think DJs and other, you know, fans of music 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:06.519 were like, get this off my ears, get this off 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.620 the airwaves. And it started that sort of backlash. 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:12.480 But I do, whether it was conscious or unconscious 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.480 racism, I do believe there was sort of a weird 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:19.379 connection between all that. Yeah, because a 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:23.159 lot of the vinyl records were predominantly of 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.539 people of color. So all music has its anthems. 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:30.279 Is there an anthem, a specific song or songs 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.600 that really resonate with you from that era that 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.019 you say, if I think of the 70s or that time, 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:41.120 this is what I hear? You're making me, I'm having, 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:47.179 you know, like cinematic memory flashbacks. You 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:49.980 know, one of the very first disco songs that 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:54.080 I ever danced to in a public space was a song 00:12:54.080 --> 00:13:22.970 by Silver Convention called Fly Robin Fly. a 00:13:22.970 --> 00:13:26.149 speakeasy somewhere in Wilmington, sort of one 00:13:26.149 --> 00:13:29.029 of these bars that opened up and then sort of 00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:32.190 disappeared very quickly afterward. But it was 00:13:32.190 --> 00:13:35.269 the first time I ever danced with, like someone 00:13:35.269 --> 00:13:40.250 asked me to dance. It was my first like kiss, 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:44.049 I guess my first public display of affection 00:13:44.049 --> 00:13:47.929 from the person that asked me to dance. And then 00:13:47.929 --> 00:13:52.309 that person asked me out on a date. So, you know, 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.159 Fly, Robin, Fly will forever be in my memory. 00:13:55.620 --> 00:14:02.500 Another is Evelyn Thomas had a disco hit called 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:08.059 High Energy. And High Energy was a quintessential 00:14:08.059 --> 00:14:13.320 big nightclub sort of anthem. When I envision 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.460 that, what I see is myself surrounded on a giant 00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:20.419 dance floor in the after -hours club called the 00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:24.600 DCA in Philadelphia. with the best -looking, 00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:29.879 best -built men dancing shirtless in a giant 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:54.639 crowd to this pulsing beat, high energy. that 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.919 musical rush that happens through the musicianship 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.620 of it, taking me higher, taking, you know, high 00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:04.000 energy, taking me higher and higher, and sort 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:07.460 of that pulsing beat where everybody is dancing 00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:10.240 in the same moment, all the heartbeats are in 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.539 sync. So I have to assume, you know, when we 00:15:13.539 --> 00:15:17.360 go to the theater, for example, and you're watching 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:21.480 a play, all your heartbeats and your respiration, 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:25.299 the audience, all... happens to get in sync. 00:15:25.539 --> 00:15:28.120 I don't know where these studies are, but I know 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:30.399 they exist. I've heard them talked about. Well, 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:34.480 imagine that with 800 people on the dance floor 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:39.200 and that rhythm pulsing like that when you are 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.019 inches apart and having that sort of experience. 00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.299 So those are two of them that stand out. The 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.559 other two big ones, right, you can't not talk 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.440 about Donna Summer. And Love to Love You Baby, 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:57.620 which I think probably has as much airplay today 00:15:57.620 --> 00:16:02.480 as it ever did when it originally came out. You 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:07.559 know, just an incredible performance. And it's 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.659 funny now because it was so controversial. I 00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:14.299 think even Donna Summer disavowed it at one point 00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:18.639 in her own career because she was simulating 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.090 the sounds of lovemaking. Just listen to how 00:16:22.090 --> 00:16:47.490 the song is mixed. But, you know, that was unheard 00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:52.139 of at that time. you know, incredible breakthrough. 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:57.460 And the other person from that era who really 00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:01.240 defines disco for me is Sylvester. And Sylvester, 00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:08.079 trans performer who could sing anything and came 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:12.299 from sort of a gospel choir background into music, 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:18.940 San Francisco, and his music, big hits, disco 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:23.579 heat, I think, do you want to funk with me? There's 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:28.059 a bunch of them. The one that stands out most 00:17:28.059 --> 00:17:32.180 to me, because San Francisco was always a symbol 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:37.039 for, you know, beyond New York City, sort of 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.200 freedom and acceptance and tolerance, was the 00:17:41.200 --> 00:18:06.029 song he wrote called Take Me to Heaven. I always 00:18:06.029 --> 00:18:10.309 saw San Francisco as a beacon, as a place where 00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:13.890 gay people could go and be who they were, who 00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:17.049 they are and were 24 -7. You didn't have to live 00:18:17.049 --> 00:18:18.829 one life during the day and another at night. 00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:22.450 You just were. So I always associate Take Me 00:18:22.450 --> 00:18:25.710 to Heaven and San Francisco and Sylvester together 00:18:25.710 --> 00:18:28.910 because that's where he performed in clubs. And 00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:36.380 it also played on my then Walkman. As I was landing 00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:40.660 on my first solo trip to San Francisco, it felt 00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:44.759 like a great invitation to come to the city, 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:49.240 which, you know, still holds a really important 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.960 place in my heart. For those who don't know, 00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:57.819 a Walkman was a small plastic box about the size 00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:01.299 of a thick sandwich with buttons that looked 00:19:01.299 --> 00:19:04.670 like Legos. And you'd press one of those buttons 00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:08.029 and it would open. And you'd pop in a cassette. 00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:12.750 Another smaller plastic box about the size of 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:16.089 a deck of cards. And in that special magical 00:19:16.089 --> 00:19:22.109 plastic box was a brown ribbon. The ribbon was 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.670 as wide as your average shoelace. And in that 00:19:26.670 --> 00:19:31.569 magical fantastical ribbon, there was music coded 00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:35.390 in it. Remember those clunky buttons that look 00:19:35.390 --> 00:19:38.829 like Legos? They used to make me feel like a 00:19:38.829 --> 00:19:43.490 spaceship pilot. You'd push one to listen to 00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:47.109 music, or rewind or fast forward to relive your 00:19:47.109 --> 00:19:52.369 favorite part. And when, not if, but when, that 00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:58.809 ribbon got tangled up and decided to... And you'd 00:19:58.809 --> 00:20:04.779 fix it with a pencil. That special branch you 00:20:04.779 --> 00:20:09.059 found when you realized that nachos are always 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:14.180 a great idea. So a Walkman was a portable music 00:20:14.180 --> 00:20:18.480 box, but more importantly, it was a test of character, 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:25.619 but way more dramatic. Oh, moment. Stephanie 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:32.549 just handed me a note, and it says... Enough 00:20:32.549 --> 00:20:35.829 with the history lesson, human. It's time for 00:20:35.829 --> 00:20:46.549 my dance party. Aww. I'll be right back. Hi. 00:20:46.890 --> 00:20:50.549 Do you find yourself yelling about bathrooms 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:54.450 like they're a forbidden portal? Do rainbow flags 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:58.130 make you foam at the mouth? Does someone else's 00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:01.170 fashionable expression feel like a personal attack? 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:06.339 Oh my gosh, you're wearing that? No wonder nobody 00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:09.140 respects you. Uh, yeah, I just pulled you from 00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:11.200 a burning building and I'm actually a U .S. military 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.640 sergeant. If you find yourself experiencing these 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.579 symptoms, you may be suffering from strategic 00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:21.700 fear amplified by religious talk and scapegoating, 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:27.390 also known as SFARTS. SFARTS. a condition triggered 00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:30.289 whenever politicians distract you with culture 00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:33.490 war soundbites instead of releasing their encyclopedia 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:37.710 of criminal records. Luckily, there's a revolutionary 00:21:37.710 --> 00:21:42.970 mouthwash called THER-a- FACTS. THER-a- FACTS, a treatment 00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:45.230 that detoxifies your brain from fear -mongering 00:21:45.230 --> 00:21:48.430 soundbites. Unlike picketing outside donut shops 00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:51.670 over pronouns, THER-a- FACTS. actually helps and has 00:21:51.670 --> 00:21:53.970 been shown to increase your quality of life by 00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:57.109 not taking yourself so seriously. Side effects 00:21:57.109 --> 00:22:00.809 may include realizing that some politicians exploit 00:22:00.809 --> 00:22:03.829 the same psychological dynamics of abusive relationships, 00:22:04.109 --> 00:22:06.849 like manipulation and gaslighting, shifting blame 00:22:06.849 --> 00:22:09.069 and scapegoating to distract you from their crimes, 00:22:09.230 --> 00:22:11.730 instilling fear with fun words like factory, 00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:15.009 religion, immigrants, and us versus them, love 00:22:15.009 --> 00:22:17.769 bombing and threats, like you're the chosen one, 00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:21.710 the real Americans, real people, isolating you. 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.299 The media and everyone else is lying to you. 00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:27.940 Only I tell you the truth. Using the words left 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:29.880 and right like they just discovered directions. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.059 In clinical trials, patients reported whistling 00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:37.099 while grocery shopping, drinking more water because 00:22:37.099 --> 00:22:40.039 apparently that's a thing. The immense regret 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.859 of joining or supporting an ISIS -like group 00:22:42.859 --> 00:22:45.759 called ICE that kidnaps U .S. citizens and people 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.230 of color while calling it patriotic. Uncontrollable 00:22:49.230 --> 00:22:51.569 toe tapping while playing air guitar and belting 00:22:51.569 --> 00:22:54.670 I will survive. Using the word fabulous. Setting 00:22:54.670 --> 00:22:57.890 boundaries without apologizing first. The epiphany 00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:00.490 of using critical thinking skills and realizing 00:23:00.490 --> 00:23:03.109 potholes don't get fixed by yelling at drag queens. 00:23:03.869 --> 00:23:06.470 Apologizing to grandma for using mustard to write 00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:08.890 the word radical on her kitchen table when she 00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:11.789 asked if you wanted milk with your coffee. You 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:14.930 may also experience accidental washboard abs 00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:17.880 from a thing called laughter. The shocking realization 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.859 that the use of a toilet is not a national crisis. 00:23:21.019 --> 00:23:24.480 No longer shouting radical at squirrels for planting 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.279 you a tree. The worst side effect that has been 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.579 reported is knowing things will take time to 00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:32.279 solve. But it starts with voting with your dollars. 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.799 Talk to your doctor today about breaking free 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.720 from sparts. Because joy isn't dangerous, but 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.819 politicians using trans lives and people of color 00:23:42.819 --> 00:23:47.220 as props definitely is. This message is brought 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:49.779 to you by the Society of Grandma's Kitchen Tables. 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:55.900 Reminding you, it knows all your secrets. I didn't 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:58.160 know that Sylvester was a trans performer, so 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.680 thank you for that education. I know we looked 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.920 at him in our class. Clearly I forgot that very 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.099 important part. I think the, you know, it's like 00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:13.140 all of that thinking, the descriptions of how 00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:18.109 people portrayed. and how they were portrayed 00:24:18.109 --> 00:24:22.710 by others. But I think it's, you know, it's pretty 00:24:22.710 --> 00:24:27.450 accepted at this point. So being in Delaware, 00:24:27.789 --> 00:24:30.390 listening to rock during the day, then finding 00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:34.470 your haven in Disco, and then going to San Francisco, 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:38.710 what did that transition feel like while you're 00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:40.410 in Medellin and then landing there? Because we 00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:43.380 changed our physiology to... you know, based 00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:47.019 on certain situations. That's how we stay safe. 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:51.319 What is that like to feel as San Francisco is 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:53.299 a place where you can be yourself? Yeah, I mean, 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.920 it's so empowering when you leave a place where 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:01.980 you are a subset of the whole and you suddenly 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:06.500 become the whole. You become the, you know, I 00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:10.750 mean, it seems too easy just to say. You're in 00:25:10.750 --> 00:25:12.309 the minority and then you become the majority 00:25:12.309 --> 00:25:14.950 because there are other things that go along 00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:17.269 with those terms that I don't necessarily think 00:25:17.269 --> 00:25:22.250 about in this context. But you are. You're sort 00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:26.230 of everywhere instead of being some places. Like 00:25:26.230 --> 00:25:28.769 you can be here and there. You can be who you 00:25:28.769 --> 00:25:32.690 are here but not there. And when you hit San 00:25:32.690 --> 00:25:35.650 Francisco, you are who you are regardless of 00:25:35.650 --> 00:25:38.549 where you are. It doesn't mean that there aren't 00:25:38.549 --> 00:25:42.130 people in San Francisco. who may not feel comfortable. 00:25:43.049 --> 00:25:46.670 Or, of course, sure, there are people like that 00:25:46.670 --> 00:25:52.150 everywhere. But the social fabric was the opposite, 00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:55.789 say, of what it was like here. New York certainly 00:25:55.789 --> 00:26:02.029 had incredible community as well. I didn't spend 00:26:02.029 --> 00:26:04.509 as much time in New York. New York seemed more 00:26:04.509 --> 00:26:09.509 daunting to me personally. But I know that... 00:26:09.690 --> 00:26:13.250 People felt that same way, for example, living 00:26:13.250 --> 00:26:18.069 in New York during those time periods in certain 00:26:18.069 --> 00:26:21.529 areas. I don't know that we could describe all 00:26:21.529 --> 00:26:26.210 of New York as the same feel as the way you can 00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:30.630 think of all of San Francisco City proper. What 00:26:30.630 --> 00:26:33.890 makes one place feel like a haven for you where 00:26:33.890 --> 00:26:37.009 the other one doesn't? That's a great question. 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:39.369 Does the music play a part in that? You know, 00:26:39.430 --> 00:26:43.670 I don't know that I can really generalize. At 00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:46.329 least for you. For me, here's one thing I will 00:26:46.329 --> 00:26:51.690 share with you. The only big street parties I've 00:26:51.690 --> 00:26:54.549 ever been to in my life have been in San Francisco. 00:26:54.809 --> 00:26:58.990 I was in San Francisco one year for New Year's, 00:26:58.990 --> 00:27:01.430 which was one of my favorite times of the year 00:27:01.430 --> 00:27:05.930 to go there on New Year's Eve. And on Castro 00:27:05.930 --> 00:27:10.670 Street, for example. Everyone in every bar, and 00:27:10.670 --> 00:27:13.490 there are bars and discos all over that area, 00:27:13.650 --> 00:27:17.309 but every restaurant, anything that was open 00:27:17.309 --> 00:27:21.589 and wherever people were, the entire population 00:27:21.589 --> 00:27:25.950 poured out into the middle of the street and 00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:29.690 had a spontaneous dance party at the stroke of 00:27:29.690 --> 00:27:35.089 midnight. Drag queens with giant 50 -foot boas 00:27:35.089 --> 00:27:39.400 were... unwinding them and stringing it across 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:43.160 the street and blocking traffic. People jumped 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:46.440 out of their cars and started dancing in the 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.900 street. And it was disco music they were dancing 00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:53.019 to that was pouring out of somebody's boombox. 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:56.579 I've also been, it's the only place city I've 00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:59.279 ever been to where they would take a giant, you 00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:03.640 know, like 50, I don't know, 25 foot across disco 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.740 ball. and hang it from a giant crane in the middle 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.099 of an intersection and put Klieg lights on it 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:15.539 and have spontaneous dance parties. A big shout 00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:18.500 out to our brave queer ancestors who fought for 00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:21.099 our rights. Thank you for doing the challenging 00:28:21.099 --> 00:28:24.359 work. Let's honor them by picking out the right 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:27.220 shoes, stretching down the street to a bottomless 00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:32.559 brunch and celebrate their fabulousness. Yeah, 00:28:32.619 --> 00:28:37.190 so it was... It's a frolic, you know. People 00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:41.890 were reveling, even in sometimes their sadness. 00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:45.470 They would get out and revel because this was 00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:48.549 their town and it was their music. Let's bring 00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:51.670 that to Delaware. Wouldn't that be awesome? You 00:28:51.670 --> 00:28:53.910 mentioned about reveling, even in their sadness. 00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:58.109 Is there a way that disco comforted you in your 00:28:58.109 --> 00:29:01.710 sadness? Do you gravitate to it to help you cope 00:29:01.710 --> 00:29:07.490 with any? Yes, it's a memory trip. You know, 00:29:07.589 --> 00:29:11.690 olfactory senses will take you on a memory trip. 00:29:11.769 --> 00:29:15.069 Music is that way also, I know for myself and 00:29:15.069 --> 00:29:18.750 a lot of people. If I listen to certain songs, 00:29:19.109 --> 00:29:22.250 I am immediately, as I said, transported to a 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:27.170 time and a place. In Ghost Cards, I write the 00:29:27.170 --> 00:29:30.769 story of one of my friends, Michael, and Michael... 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:35.259 And I used to go dancing. In fact, all of, you 00:29:35.259 --> 00:29:38.420 know, in my life as an out person when I left 00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:41.579 Delaware, moved to Philadelphia and lived out 00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:45.160 openly. Even though I was out in Delaware, I 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.480 was not out to everyone. But once I got to Philadelphia, 00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:52.559 I was out everywhere all the time. And we went 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.880 dancing at least two nights a week, sometimes 00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:00.039 more. But we also, Michael and I, would go to... 00:30:00.650 --> 00:30:04.910 dance and he loved a song which drove me crazy 00:30:04.910 --> 00:30:30.980 at the time by Laura Branigan. Gloria, again, 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.500 gets a lot of airplay today. And, you know, whenever 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.839 I hear that song now, I'm transported to how 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:39.759 many times, whether I liked the song or didn't, 00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:43.079 we were on a dance floor together dancing. Wow. 00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:47.640 Either in San Francisco, New York. I know we 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:51.099 were in New York at least once. Dragged me onto 00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:54.480 the dance floor. Fort Lauderdale, Philadelphia, 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:58.599 somewhere in New Jersey, at least, I'm sure. 00:30:59.299 --> 00:31:01.319 You know. So it was that kind of thing. It was 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.559 also kind of a glue. You know, when a song was 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:07.759 hot, you could go from one city to another and 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.420 become instantly part of your community. That 00:31:11.420 --> 00:31:15.140 energy sort of connected everybody. We don't 00:31:15.140 --> 00:31:18.339 often think about the communities that it builds, 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.019 how it makes us feel less alone or seen. And 00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:25.559 music is just incredibly powerful. It is a glue. 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:28.400 But do you still hear disco in some of the songs 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.720 that, you know, modern, do you hear the influence? 00:31:31.099 --> 00:31:33.480 Absolutely. Well, I mean, the sampling that goes 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:36.559 on from, you know, one musician to another, I 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:39.920 mean, the rhythm, you know, the bass guitar in 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:44.400 Oogie Oogie Oogie, it's in at least a dozen other 00:31:44.400 --> 00:32:10.769 songs that I can think of. just pieces of that 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:16.750 that came out because one of the producers from 00:32:16.750 --> 00:32:20.369 that time period, Niall Rogers, who worked on 00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:22.650 some of the biggest, you know, disco, if you 00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:25.970 want to call it, or dance hits, worked with David 00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:30.009 Bowie, worked with him on his Let's Dance album, 00:32:30.150 --> 00:32:33.670 for example, worked with tons of other artists. 00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:38.700 So the influence of that time period. Giorgio 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:42.240 Moroder, who, you know, worked with Donna Summer. 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.380 Now, was Giorgio a producer? Who was Giorgio? 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:48.319 Giorgio Moroder, I may actually also have a writing 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.759 credit on Love to Love You, Baby. He may have 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:53.059 written the music for her. And I don't know to 00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:56.240 what extent Donna Summer wrote music or if she 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.859 was involved in it, you know, collaboratively. 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:02.119 But Giorgio Moroder, I believe, produced and 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:05.180 played on, you know, a number of those. Certainly 00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:08.029 wonderful to discover new names. Do you see any 00:33:08.029 --> 00:33:11.049 takeaways from disco that still resonate? Yeah, 00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:15.490 I'm trying to love, lust, sort of that primal 00:33:15.490 --> 00:33:20.490 rhythm, that beat, when, you know, all of your 00:33:20.490 --> 00:33:25.750 senses are firing and you're in proximity, you're 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:29.730 in community. Yeah, I mean, I think all of that 00:33:29.730 --> 00:33:35.049 is still very much with us. EDM went from, you 00:33:35.049 --> 00:33:37.750 know, trance music. All of that, I think, stemmed 00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:42.990 out of that. Disco was led by black, Latinx, 00:33:43.029 --> 00:33:46.789 and queer artists. Gender and identity fluidity 00:33:46.789 --> 00:33:50.309 were celebrated. It put women at the center of 00:33:50.309 --> 00:33:53.910 the music scene. It shifted music tech and dance 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:57.369 culture. It challenged racism and homophobia. 00:33:57.910 --> 00:34:01.529 It taught America to dance together. Not only 00:34:01.529 --> 00:34:07.759 America, but... The world. Disco. Do you think 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:09.800 it will always resonate with the queer community? 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:15.360 Yeah, I think so. I think so because, but I think 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.159 that the fun part, because people like to dance. 00:34:18.579 --> 00:34:22.380 What cracks me up is that there are political 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:27.079 campaigns, for example, that are using the village 00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:30.719 people and using their music because it's become 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:34.900 such a... woven into the fabric of our culture, 00:34:35.019 --> 00:34:38.940 and they have no idea where and why this music 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:43.519 existed and what is behind it. And some of those 00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.340 same people want to deny the people who created 00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:50.619 it and that first listened to it their rights 00:34:50.619 --> 00:34:55.420 and their existence. So it's really kind of funny 00:34:55.420 --> 00:35:01.000 to me that it's transcended its own sort of niche. 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:05.119 How many weddings don't have somebody playing 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:08.199 that at some point? I find it really amusing 00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:14.280 when I see what used to be a symbol of a particular 00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:18.239 group of people at a particular time in history 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:23.380 suddenly being just part of something that seems 00:35:23.380 --> 00:35:27.320 completely anathema to it. Well, thank you, Jeff. 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:28.880 Is there anything else that you would like to 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.400 add to this? Thank you so much for asking me 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:36.199 to talk with you about music, but disco music 00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.780 especially. It's been the soundtrack to a big 00:35:38.780 --> 00:35:44.400 part of my life. Disco will live on. In fact, 00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:47.880 some of your favorite songs and defining moments 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:52.599 in music are straight from disco. Here is Steve 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.099 Grohl talking to Pharrell Williams about it. 00:35:55.849 --> 00:35:59.210 The Nirvana record. I pulled so much stuff from 00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:04.070 the Gap Band and Cameo and Tony Thompson on every 00:36:04.070 --> 00:36:12.610 one of those songs. All that. That's old disco. 00:36:14.989 --> 00:36:19.369 That's all it is. Can I not hear that? Nobody 00:36:19.369 --> 00:36:22.929 makes the connection. That's straight up Gap 00:36:22.929 --> 00:36:25.719 Band. I told Tony Thompson that I came to my 00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:27.599 house for a barbecue with somebody. And I was 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:29.400 like, man, I just want to thank you because, 00:36:29.500 --> 00:36:31.840 you know, I owe so much. I've been ripping you 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:36.500 off my whole life. He goes, I know. Whoa. Thank 00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:39.800 you for hanging out with us. And of course, Stoney 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.460 and I are celebrating all the artists from the 00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:45.539 disco era by knocking this glass of water into 00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:52.880 a plant. Do it, Stoney. Yeah. Ooh, there's also 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:56.519 glitter. Fun. We're going to have a dance party 00:36:56.519 --> 00:37:00.159 with our plants. Until next time, go check out 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:02.920 some music. Have a dance party in whatever way 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.079 is accessible to you. This episode was produced, 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.320 mixed, and recorded by Shozzett Silva. Transition 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.139 music, parody commercial, and soundtrack was 00:37:13.139 --> 00:37:16.659 by them as well. And remember, Honor Your Rhythm.