Welcome to Rhythms of Progress, where we explore
how music and artists are the unsung heroes of
political movements and social advancement. I'm
your host, Shozzett Silva, but you can call me
Lizzard. Yes, like the reptile. Today we're celebrating
a New York -based playwright and screenwriter
who makes you smirk, laugh and question your
morality while keeping you entertained. Not an
easy task. The one and only Chisa Hutchinson.
This word ninja injects social and cultural progress
into her writing by amplifying marginalized people
and tackling pressing political issues of our
time. Her latest play American follows a man
who joins a white supremacy group to secure a
bright future for his son. However, he must take
an ancestry test to prove his white lineage.
The results are more of an... Oops, then. Elite.
Science. Ruining people's dreams. It's like signing
up for a vegan baking class and discovering that
I'm allergic to gluten. It was a bit awkward.
How will he navigate this situation? What would
you do in his place? What would I do? I would
probably show up in a t -shirt that says, Make
white supremacy inclusive. You can experience
her work from March 1st to April 13th, 2025 at
59 East 59 Theatres. The play is directed by
Jade King Carroll. Now in New York, check out
her work on The Stars Network, where she was
a staff writer for Three Women, a TV series.
Check out her plays at your local library, listen
to her audio plays, or find her films and shows
on your preferred streaming service. Just a little
FYI, this episode was recorded right after the
election and over Zoom, so the sound might be
dynamic. So good to see you. How are you? Hanging
in. And how is Smitty feeling about everything?
Smitty's her dog. Oh, he doesn't know what's
coming, poor thing. He's their little ray of
sunshine. He's so funny. Like, the other day
I was just starting to... I don't know, process
the election and all of its implications and
was just feeling so overwhelmed at all the things
that are going to need to change in our lives
in order for us to sort of cope with that. And
as I went to reach for some yogurt to go make
a smoothie, the yogurt fell out of the refrigerator
and cracked onto the floor. The whole big tub
of yogurt like just was just all over the floor.
Right. And I'm standing there just feeling like,
of course, of course. And it was such a small
little, you know, irritation. But given everything
else that had been happening that week, it just
felt like straw that broke a camel's back situation.
And I'm standing there like, OK, how do I? What's
the most effective way to clean this up? This
is going to take an hour to do this because it's
like under the fridge. Now it's like everywhere.
And then along comes Smitty and starts like licking
up yogurt as fast as he can. And it was just
such a sweet little reminder of like, oh, right.
Help can come from like the most unexpected of
places and you don't have to do everything alone.
Spilling anything is normally an annoying inconvenience.
But this time it seems personal. Even the yogurt
is trying to escape the chaos. And it did, into
the dog's belly. And what would Smitty say about
politics? Yeah, we haven't really had the chance
to discuss yet. But I'm sure he's got some solid
ideas. I would read that book. Oh gosh, politics
according to Smitty. And we know congratulations
are in order. So congratulations on your success.
Yeah, I'm pretty happy with it. So how do you
see your role as a writer in today's political
climate? You know, I really thought I had a handle
on the answer to this question and like variations
of this question, literally until last week.
And now I really just, I don't know. Everything
is so up in the air right now that, of course,
you have to sort of re -prioritize everything
and question all your life choices. But here's
the thing. I'm really not particularly good at
anything else, so I really kind of have to make
this writing thing work however I can. And it
just so happens that I, you know, have certain
political beliefs. That I work into my scripts,
into my plays, into my screenplays. And I've
been lucky enough to work with companies and
organizations that their values are aligned with
mine. I'm not quite sure what's going to happen
now. I'm really not sure what the market for...
stories written by Black women about, you know,
people of color and women protagonists and queer
folks. Like, I'm really just not sure what the
landscape is going to look like in a while, at
least here in the States. That's not going to
stop me from sending my work out. or like making
my pitches wherever, I just think it's going
to become even more difficult to sort of get
those narratives where they need to be. The election
was not long ago, and we've seen the diluting
of narratives and rights. So like right now,
I have a play called American, which is about
this guy, Jeff. he's just had a baby and he wants
to plug into his community so he can sort of
wrangle some benefits for his family right and
so um to do that in his tiny tiny maryland town
he decides to join a white supremacist group
because you know they take care of each other
and uh as part of his initiation he has to take
a dna test like an ancestry test and get some
inconvenient results and sort of has to deal
with the consequences of that right so obviously
this is an exploration of i mean obviously like
racial polygamy you know but just in general
the the idea of us and them and what happens
when the line between those groups gets blurry
yeah and to just sort of get people thinking
about how Their position in life could be very
different depending on, oh, I don't know who
gets elected or, you know, who moves in next
door or a DNA test, right? Like, you just never
know. You never know. And I don't know, I'm just
trying to foster some empathy that way. It was
sort of my way to try to understand people who
are not like me or people who might hate people
like me without even knowing any of us. I was
really, really, really, really trying hard to
foster empathy within myself and others. It's
got a production in New York in the spring. Hopefully
it'll land how it needs to. I doubt very much
that that play will get done in the next four
years. Subsequent productions, that's the idea.
You don't just stop after the one production.
Ideally, it gets done all over the globe. Yeah,
I don't, I'm just not sure. Ooh, you know who'd
fund the arts? Dogs. They get the hustle. They
know that much like cats, artists are undervalued,
but secretly running the show. Fun fact, artists
contribute about $877 billion to the U .S. economy.
Thanks, U .S. Bureau of Economic Analysis. Meanwhile,
politicians love artists for political campaign
arts. Writers, videographers, musicians, fashion,
graphic and lighting designers. Ooh, and don't
forget the makeup. The whole show. But mention
finding the arts, and suddenly they're allergic.
Oh no, you're sprinkling too many facts and brilliance.
Achoo! But in all seriousness, when you go to
the theatre or cinema, you are immersed in diverse
perspectives. Storytelling humanizes social issues
and encourages dialogue and social change. What
are some of the challenges that you've overcome
as a writer? Well, still overcoming, so I'm not
sure that like have overcome is a thing. But
I think for me, marketing is a really difficult
thing or a really tricky thing. Oh, well, the
one indie movie that I made was, it was rough
because the subject is very, it's heavy and it's,
you know, it's all about, you know, exploitation
and how, you know, there's a white documentary
filmmaker in it who sort of exploits young Black
people. in the film and that documentary filmmaker
was played by Jason Biggs who you know is kind
of like America's comedic sweetheart so anyone
who's like tuning in to a movie starring Jason
Biggs expecting you know American Pie is going
to be sorely disappointed but they are also probably
the people that I would want watch the film the
most you know in the hopes that it would land
um similarly oh when this very play American
got done in Houston a little while ago when they
were marketing it there was a very conservative
outlet that they said so hey they want to do
they want to do an interview with you and I was
like oh okay cool yeah and we think it should
be about how there's a live dog in the play and
for you to talk about what it's like to work
with a live dog in the theater. And at first
I was like, what? Like, that's, that's not at
all. Like what the play is about. And then I
thought of, then I said, oh no, that's actually,
that's actually brilliant because it's. exactly
the thing that's going to get you know I'm not
going to get the people that I really really
want to target with my work like I'm not going
to get their butts in the seats I'm not going
to get them you know to to rent my movie or whatever
if it is oh a black lady movie so I think I really
do think marketing is like such a huge thing
that I'm constantly having to figure out and
Yeah, it's an obstacle because I don't really
quite know how. Looking the way I do and being
in this body, right, I don't really know how
to appeal to the people that I'm trying to appeal
to. Like, to lure them out of their, like, white,
straight, cis male hidey holes. Hmm. Sounds like
it's time for my unrequited opinion. First, what
a great choice to cast Jason. It shows your deep
understanding of audience perception and you
challenging them and typecasting. Because Jason
is typecast, people expect to see him in something
witty or funny. But by them watching the subject,
they are now privileged to his artistic range.
What was the audience's response to his casting?
Oh, no, it's what you would have expected. There
were a lot of angry white guys, sort of. you
know, this isn't funny. We're like, this is just,
this is just woke nonsense. Like, what is this?
You know? And it's discouraging to read those
because I'm like, oh, you're like exactly who
I was. And I was really hoping, but I still harbor
a quiet hope that maybe, you know, now that they've
seen it, they've subjected themselves to it,
that it's sort of something stuck. You know,
and that maybe it, I don't know, that they've
been sort of infected with my woke bug. By the
way, the word woke just means haven't been awake.
But in this instance, it means being aware. And
why would a person not want someone else to be
aware? What would they want to do to them? All
right, let's make it easy. Follow me to Fingerpaint
Politics. Yesterday, we were sitting in Ms. Lizard's
art class and she put a big box of crayons in
the middle. So many colors. And one kid, his
name is... We're not saying names. Takes the
black, brown, and glittery crayons and swoosh,
just throws them in the trash. Then Jesus stands
up like a superhero and says, Hey, we need all
the colors to make the best picture. And the
crayons, the actual crayons, wiggle onto the
edge of the trash can and say, Hey, we want the
color too. And everyone agrees, except for that
kid. But I think he... learned it from his parents
because they're always fighting about stuff so
woke just means when you see that things are
not fair and you want to fix it but grown -ups
i think they forget because if you ask different
grown -ups one will say Woke is being the superhero
of fairness. And another will say, Woke is the
reason Uncle Bob won't shut up at Thanksgiving
dinner. My guest today is New York -based screenwriter
and playwright, Cecil Hutchinson, who also teaches
at the University of Delaware. From then to now,
have you seen a shift in the way media has changed
with representation? I will say that by the time
I notice a trend, it's already passed. You know
what I mean? So there was a hot minute when everybody
wanted, oh, a story with a female protagonist,
right? And like, oh yeah, a really proactive
female protagonist. And oh, well, that show that's
on, Three Women, that's on, it's on Starz now,
but we originally wrote it for Showtime. Over
the course of us developing the series and, you
know, writing the series, they filmed the entire
first season of the series, right? And this is,
you know, it's based on that book that's by Lisa
Tadeo. And it's about three women whose, we'll
say, whose libidos get them into trouble or who,
you know, just have all kinds of problems. in
their romances, which sounds really, I don't
know that I would have read the book if someone
had told me that. And it's just sort of about
desire and like how women's desire is often overlooked
or often, you know, characterized as problematic
or, you know. So here we are creating a series
about that with Showtime when in comes the new
head at Showtime. With a new mandate that's like,
no, no, no, we're going back to everything that
was like hyper masculine, testosterone driven,
Ray Donovan type stuff. You know, we need like
masculine stuff. We need manly man stuff. And
so it was a series called Three Women, you know,
about like women's desires and how they play
out in their lives. It doesn't fit the bill anymore,
right? If you can devour violence, true crime
and horror, but get squeamish about female sexuality
or the intricacies of your relationships, some
may see it as a red flag, but I think it's actually
an opportunity to explore resources, get support
that does work and, you know, it would be funny
if we had the same therapist, but I guess we'll
never know. Anyway, you deserve it. Besides,
the world has enough emotionally constipated
people. And here are some examples of what art
has done for society. The movie Philadelphia
shifted public perceptions around HIV and AIDS.
Bambi, yes, that cute little movie, sparked a
national conversation around hunting, wildlife,
animal rights, and empathy. The writer's strike
brought streaming platforms to its knees and
to negotiate. It exposed corporate dependence
on creative labor and the real cost of underestimating
it. and united multiple unions in solidarity,
showing collective power. So here was this company
that we were working for, you know, who was all
rah -rah, you know, feminism, yeah, women protagonists,
and the future is female, right? And then literally,
over the course of us creating the show, the
mandate changed, the trend changed, right? So
that's another thing, I guess. It's just really
hard keeping up with what's hot on the representation
circuit. But I also take hope in that because
at some point, everything old is going to be
new again. It's cyclical, you know, and I don't
know. I just hope that it cycles enough in my
lifetime that I can keep making a living doing
what I love. You will. I'm not worried about
you. That makes one of us. Oh my goodness, you
caught me at like the most pessimistic moment
of perhaps my life. You mean your humanity? Mm
-hmm. So what can people in the industry do to
support you? Honestly, I really can't ask. I
can't ask producers, casting directors or whatever
to, because they got to eat too. Right. I can't,
you know, be like, well, tell them that if they're
not going to do it this way, then, you know,
you're not going to do it. Like you quit or whatever.
Like that's not that's unrealistic and it's unfair.
But I do appreciate when casting directors understand
the assignment as far as I, you know. I do appreciate
when a producer. says, well, if they're not going
to let you do it this way and you don't want
to do it this way, then they don't want this
project. And plus, let's work on something else
together. All right. So don't just take the opportunity
away, but like maybe offer another one, which
is like actually what's happening right now with
the thing. Again, realistically, I don't expect
other people to like give up their opportunities
for my. values for me right but if you are like
committed to being an ally right then you will
find other opportunities for us to work together
you will find a workaround you will find you
will do the legwork that it requires to find
that like queer black woman that I need in that
role you know what I mean like and no the queer
Jewish woman is not going to Isn't that a good
substitution in this particular role? No, that's
another script. Do you ever think about how much
you've done as a writer? How much your producers
and casting directors have done for the way that
others experience the world? And this question
is unfair because it puts all the responsibility
on artists and creatives. I don't really have
time for that. Because I'm always sort of like
moving on to the next thing. Or someone will
point out like, oh, yeah, it was a great play.
Oh, but it was missing this. Or like, here's
how I feel like it failed me as like a Black
member of your audience. Because I felt like
you were writing toward white people. And I'm
like, all right, next play is going to be specifically
for you. You know what I mean? It's kind of exhausting.
But it also, like, assures that, like, or insures,
I mean to say, like, it also ensures that, like,
the work will never be done. If I were just sort
of constantly, like, stopping and looking back
and being like, oh, look at what all the people
I've represented and what, you know, I just,
it's terrible to have this kind of OCD of, like,
well, let me just fixate on these failures and
try to make it better next time. But yeah, I
don't know. It keeps me going. It's fuel. Complacency
is not good fuel. It doesn't propel you anywhere.
And what would Smitty say about your writing?
I think Smitty enjoys my writing. He's in here
with me usually when I'm writing and having to
read scenes out loud. So he gets to hear it in
its raw form. And every now and then I get a
glint. I get a, all right, yeah, you're doing
okay. Okay, provocative scene. You're taking
him for a walk. He sees one of your characters.
Which one will he pee on? Oh, my goodness. Who
would he? I mean, I guess he would probably pee
on. Oh, oh, no. He would pee on. Okay, so in
Three Women, there is a character who's actually
based on an actual person, Aaron Canodal. He.
is the teacher who essentially, like, molests
the student of his, right? Smitty would definitely
pee on that guy. Smitty the Advocate. If a dog
can sniff out bad characters, what's our excuse?
Yeah, he's a good little dude. He's going to
get a biscuit later. Is there anything else you'd
like to leave us with? Three Women on Stars is
the TV show. The subject, the indie movie that
I made with Jason Biggs in it is on most streaming
platforms. American is happening in March at
59E59 in New York City. And I just thank the
people for whom it like would never even occur
to them to like leave this country right now.
I just want to thank the people who are like,
no, I'm going to stay and fight. I'm going to
stay and like, especially producers who are like,
this changes nothing for me. And I'm still going
to try to like, you know, make the movies that
I want to make, create the shows that I want
to create, mount the plays that I want to mount,
you know, like for those people who are like
sticking around and fighting the good fight,
like kudos to you. I'm exhausted. Both choices
take a lot of courage. Staying and fighting and
leaving and living. Either way, survival is resistance.
And art, art is the breadcrumb trails we leave
each other. Just in case one of us gets lost
or tired, we take turns. I mean, nobody revolutions
every day. I think this is the time that we can
really imitate non -human animals. We have to
rest. And if you ever need help or someone to
talk to, the Entertainment Community Fund, formerly
known as the Actors Fund, is there for you. They
provide free help to anyone in the entertainment
industry. And if you don't need help, perhaps
you can volunteer and help somebody else. But
hey, from time to time, we all need to pretend
to be the one person village. Yeah, I don't feel
safe here. So I'm no good to anyone dead or,
you know, on a plantation, in a detention center,
on a plantation, wherever they, whatever they've
got planned for the black and brown people in
this country. But for those who are like, no,
I'm staying and fighting the good fight, like,
good on you. I mean, they shot up a homecoming
at a Black university and an HBCU, another HBCU
burned down. Texas State, there are people carrying
signs that say women and slaves are property.
Like, I'm just, yeah, it's time to go. And the
people who create private prisons, owners of
private prisons are salivating over the promise
of mass deportation. Just there's too much. There's
too much going on for me to not feel vulnerable
and like I need to get the heck out of Dodge.
So I'm going to do that. But you better believe
that my plays and stuff will still be here. We
will figure it out. I just want to thank you
for, like, good grief. You got literally run
over by a car. You're just sitting here, like,
interviewing. This amazing person. Yes, I did
get run over by a car. A person ran a red light.
And for a minute, I did not think I would make
it. But jokes on them. I'm still here. And Payne
and I, well, we share snacks. You know who else
is still here? Chisa Hutchinson and her brilliance.
Her plays will outlive us and continue to inspire
generations. Her work is linked in the episode
notes. And to anyone listening, thank you for
sharing your most valuable asset, your time.
Now you won't get it back, but hopefully you
got in a good snack or at least a satisfying
eye roll. Let's call that even. To anyone feeling
unsafe, unheard, unwelcome, you're not alone.
Since the new president, human rights have been
violated and fundamental rights chipped away.
But we are not powerless. We are artists, writers,
producers, creatives, truth -tellers, fashion
designers, organizers, and communities who have
been editing the system. So keep sharing your
voice. Vote. March. Create. Rest. Repeat. Yes,
you deserve to be at your best to give your best.
But if you ever do feel powerless, just remember
that night. Remember that day when that teeny
tiny mosquito would not let you sleep? That relentless
taunting buzzing around your ears? Then the surprise
ankle bites? Oh, you're more powerful than a
mosquito. As for your artistic expression, it
infiltrates society and highlights your technical
and creative skills, as well as the systems that
abuse it. If it did not matter, why would dictators
be so busy silencing people and banning books?
This episode was produced, recorded and mixed
by Josette Silva. All music and sound design
are by them as well, except for the one in Fingerpaint
Politics. That's royalty -free music. Thank you,
Internet. Rhythms of Progress isn't sponsored.
Yet. But we are proudly protected by the Screen
Actors Guild and hang out with other entertainment
unions and creative communities. And hey, join
a union, a running club. Follow us on Instagram
where you will see me make a lush of mistakes.
Join a funky neighborhood choir. Plant some flowers
for the bees while your cat takes you on a walk.
A very special thanks to the University of Delaware's
WVUD, Steve Karamuk, Dave McKenzie, the entire
team at the radio station. And remember, honour
your rhythm.