1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,200 Welcome to Rhythms of Progress, where we explore how music and artists are the unsung heroes 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,160 of political movement and social advancement. 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,840 I'm Shozzett Silva, but you can call me Lizzard. 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,560 Yes, like the reptile. 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,560 On today's episode we have... 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,360 Oh, hi. 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,840 You seem like an incredible human. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,840 Who are you? 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,480 My name's Micayla Cook. 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,320 I am a senior English and Communications double major here at UD. 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,560 I'm studying journalism, mainly. 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,860 I'm the news director down here at VUD, and I'm also the development officer upstairs 13 00:00:38,860 --> 00:00:40,080 with The Reveal. 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:41,200 But you also write about music. 15 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,200 I do. 16 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,200 I try. 17 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,200 Um, dream job for me is absolutely like Rolling Stone. 18 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,960 So like, I was gonna say, I don't know if they want me, because they're hiring a lot 19 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,880 of men right now. 20 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,480 But Rolling Stone, at least from my perspective as of late, has mostly just been like older 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:59,480 like dudes. 22 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,800 I don't know, like obviously like they have their hits and they have their misses, but 23 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:09,000 like there was some article that I read, like a 50 year old guy being like, Olivia Rodrigo 24 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,400 doesn't make sense to me. 25 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,420 And I was like, yeah, of course it doesn't. 26 00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:14,420 This was Sour. 27 00:01:14,420 --> 00:01:16,280 So she was like a 19 year old girl. 28 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,080 I'm like, she's a teenage girl. 29 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,660 Of course the thoughts that she's trying to express aren't relatable to you. 30 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:25,240 She's like a middle aged guy. 31 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,880 That article I think stuck with me just because it like frustrated me. 32 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:35,200 Dear Micaela Cookie, I say you write a response article to Rolling Stone and put it in your 33 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:36,680 portfolio. 34 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:37,680 Like three months later. 35 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:38,680 Why not? 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,220 Honestly, you're right. 37 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:43,320 Why Rolling Stone? 38 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:47,800 One of the only things I could get my dad to like agree to read to me as a kid was Rolling 39 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:48,800 Stone. 40 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,640 As a kid, like my first love was a hundred percent like the written word. 41 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,000 Like I've been a writer since like the day I was born pretty much like taught myself 42 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,440 how to read when I was like three. 43 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,960 And I'm just a nerd. 44 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,960 But I like wanted my parents to read to me all the time. 45 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,040 Like that is all I ever wanted to do. 46 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,080 I just wanted people to read to me. 47 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,800 And my dad worked a lot because my mom was a stay at home mom for the first couple years 48 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,760 of my life because my younger brother was a pretty difficult baby. 49 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,760 So like sometimes she'd be like with my brother or she'd be sleeping and like my dad would 50 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,760 be home and I would want somebody to read to me and he would usually end up reading 51 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,960 like music journalism like Rolling Stone and stuff like that. 52 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,940 I remember when I first was explaining to him like I think I might want to do like journalism. 53 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:44,240 He was like like Rolling Stone and I was like, you know, that's that's not a bad idea actually. 54 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,280 And that that's your dream job. Do you interview bands? 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,520 Yes, I have one piece from last semester that I wrote for the review that I'm actually pretty 56 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,640 proud of. 57 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:54,920 You know, the secret tunnel? 58 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:57,200 Yes, it was like your piece. 59 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,200 Thank you. 60 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:05,560 But yeah, it was like an underground like I wrote a piece about that closing and interviewed 61 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,920 the people who ran it, some bands that have performed there, some like concert goers. 62 00:03:09,920 --> 00:03:12,360 And that was like a really cool piece. 63 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,960 I think I'm happy with the way that that one came together. 64 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:15,960 Yeah, I liked it. 65 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:16,960 Thank you. 66 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,440 You're a really good storyteller. 67 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,280 You show the history, but it's very well rounded the way you tell stories. 68 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,640 I really appreciate that. 69 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:27,880 What's the biggest thing you've seen music do culturally or politically? 70 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,600 It's a huge question because music has really done a lot that it's not often given credit 71 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:33,600 for. 72 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,520 No, I completely agree. 73 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:43,360 I think that music has the power to unite a generation politically that very few other 74 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,240 things do. 75 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:52,800 And this has been seen like in multiple generations, not just Gen Z, in that like, we didn't start 76 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,640 the fire by Billy Joel was like huge. 77 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:57,640 And that song is political. 78 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:58,640 That song is so political. 79 00:03:58,640 --> 00:03:59,640 Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnny Ray, South Pacific, Walter Wichita, Joe DiMaggio, 80 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:12,280 John McCartney, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television, North Korea, South Korea, Maryland. 81 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:17,600 It united a generation to kind of wake up to the political world that they were living 82 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,600 in. 83 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,280 And I think that if that hadn't been in like a catchy little like synthy hook, I don't 84 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:24,000 know if it would have done the same thing. 85 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000 But so many people heard that song and then were like politically engaged based on that 86 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,520 song. 87 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:38,280 So many songs kind of have their moment because music has the ability to put emotions into 88 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:42,400 words that you can't just say. 89 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,480 I think that everybody in the world probably has a song that like comes to mind when you 90 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,280 say like, oh, I didn't know I was feeling that until you just said that. 91 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:52,960 And now I'm like, oh my god, you're so right. 92 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,960 Like I totally feel like that. 93 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,040 It helps us emotionally regulate. 94 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,040 Exactly. 95 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,720 In a way that I don't think many other things do. 96 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,720 And I think that music has such a uniting power to it that I think it's a very important 97 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,160 tool politically. 98 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,180 Political movements need soundtracks. 99 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:15,600 Most political movements throughout history, major ones at least, have songs that were 100 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,520 like theirs. 101 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,540 There's a reason for that because music is a very, very important vehicle to political 102 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:28,680 change because it's such an accessible way to reach a person. 103 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:35,580 And that you can just hear it on the radio or you can really get in there and get down 104 00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:38,360 in the trenches and fight for something. 105 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,200 Or you can just like the song. 106 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,200 I don't know. 107 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,880 I think that music and the way that it affects culture is so, so fascinating. 108 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,920 Music is very political. It makes you pay attention to the things you normally 109 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,160 would ignore. 110 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,360 Perhaps one of the most well-known examples of activism through music is Woodstock, with 111 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:03,760 John Byas, Bob Dylan, Richie Havens, Jimi Hendrix, Jonny Mitchell, and more. 112 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:09,000 Artists who performed to protest against the Vietnam War in support of women's rights, 113 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,480 protecting the planet, and the civil rights movement. 114 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,240 The last three were still fighting for. 115 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:15,880 But it was more than a concert. 116 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,400 It was peaceful defiance. 117 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,520 2016 was when Trump was running for the first time. 118 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:29,200 So I was in sixth grade and most people were like, well, what do you think? 119 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,200 What do you think of the election? 120 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,600 Because it was the first one where we were old enough to be paying attention. 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,040 How old are you in sixth grade? 122 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,160 I was 12 or 13. 123 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,160 Judicial age. 124 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,160 Yeah. 125 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,600 Also, my dad is very conservative and is a very big Trump supporter. 126 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,760 I always joke that he doesn't like my career, but it's his fault. 127 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Because I saw what misinformation can do. 128 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,200 And I was like, no, that's not going to happen to anybody else on my watch. 129 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,800 So he may not like my career, but he's the one that drove me to it. 130 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:57,800 I love my father. 131 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,960 I just think that he's wrong about a lot of things politically. 132 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,480 But he knows that. 133 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,880 Sixth grade was the first time I started to form a bit of my own opinion, because I had 134 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,880 an internet connection for the first time in my life. 135 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,880 Discovered that what my dad was saying wasn't the only option, essentially. 136 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,600 Because my mom is a Democrat, but she's also the type of person who doesn't really watch 137 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,880 the news, because she's like, it makes me sad. 138 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,880 Which I think is fair, because my mom's a Buddhist. 139 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,900 She's a very Zen type of person, and it messes with her Zen. 140 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,000 News fatigue is a very real thing. 141 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,420 So the only political voice I had in my life for a while was my dad. 142 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:40,300 And then I started to do my own research and realized that I didn't believe the same things 143 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:41,840 that my dad did. 144 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:50,160 I think that really solidified in 2020, because I was 16 when the pandemic started, and another 145 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,920 very pivotal age, I think. 146 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,200 And that was also when Black Lives Matter was happening. 147 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:00,240 Because what else was I going to do, other than go on the internet and learn about things? 148 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:06,920 The pandemic and Black Lives Matter gave us deep lessons, like how to wash our hands properly, 149 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,120 unmute our Zoom, and ourselves in real life. 150 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaking about musing, were you using your voice with crowds? 151 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:22,480 Or were you on the Wi-Fi sidelines or sofa saying, yeah, take that systemic racism? 152 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:29,640 I went to a Black Lives Matter protest in 2020, and people were chanting. 153 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,040 And there's a reason that people do that. 154 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,920 It's just easier. 155 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,020 So you put them in a song, and it makes it a little bit more palatable, and also it sticks 156 00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:40,020 in your head. 157 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:41,520 Yeah, it's nice and catchy. 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:42,520 Exactly. 159 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,440 Like, it's an easy vehicle to initiate change through. 160 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,280 Music, a powerful force. 161 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:57,120 Artists use their music to protest police brutality towards Black Americans and other 162 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,120 injustices. 163 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:05,720 The band Zeal and Ardor's album, Wake of a Nation, was a direct response to Mr. Floyd's 164 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:06,720 murder. 165 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,360 The musician Elijah Blake re-released Hangin' Tree, a song written in response to the death 166 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:19,120 of 43-year-old Eric Gardner, who lost consciousness as a police officer locked him in an illegal 167 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,120 chokehold. 168 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,480 Music is never just background noise. 169 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,040 It is a catalyst for action, a call for change. 170 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,560 Justice. 171 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:34,200 I also was kind of discovering albums for the first time, and being like, well, I have 172 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:40,560 time now to sit with my headphones on for an hour and just sit through a whole album. 173 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:44,720 I got really into the 1975 at the time, which I know is controversial. 174 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,820 And their lead singer is a terrible person, and it breaks my heart because I think he's 175 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:50,040 a musical genius. 176 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:55,080 But also, he hadn't done a lot of the stuff that made me think he's a bad person yet in 177 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,080 2020. 178 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,200 Well, there's something to look at because you separate the artist from the person, but 179 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,200 it's a little bit difficult sometimes. 180 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,200 Exactly. 181 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:08,320 And then you get into separating the art from the artist, which I have to do in that case, 182 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,640 kind of, because I love the 1975's music so much. 183 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:18,400 I kind of was like, I don't want to do this without that music. 184 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,080 Because one of the first albums that really kind of hit me was, they have an album that 185 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,200 came out in 2018 called A Brief Inquiry Into Online Relationships, and that had a song 186 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,600 called Love It If We Made It. 187 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:49,880 Like, it's a very deeply political song. 188 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,200 I was telling you, I have it tattooed on my arm. 189 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,240 My arm says the poetry is in the street in French because I'm pretentious. 190 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,680 But thank you. 191 00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,480 The churches belong to all of us and the earth belongs to all of us. 192 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,200 I think that's a lovely way to look at that. 193 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,120 You evolve as an artist and as a human. 194 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,680 I think there's a lot of learning in that. 195 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,720 If you want to separate, that's your journey. 196 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,040 That's between you and therapists or whatever. 197 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,280 That's not my business. 198 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,840 Yeah, because also I think a lot of people aren't ready for the conversation that most 199 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,360 of the 80s pop stars were not good people. 200 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,280 Like Michael Jackson. 201 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,520 Listen, he's the king of pop, but also like those pedophile allegations come out like 202 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,120 every couple of years and people just ignore them because he was good at music. 203 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,640 Things should definitely not be ignored. 204 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,960 Yeah, but that's the thing is people are always like, well, you don't know if it's real. 205 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,520 And I'm like, do you believe the victim? 206 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:42,520 Because the victim said it happened. 207 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,320 People don't make stuff up like this. 208 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:45,320 That's kind of where I'm at. 209 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,360 And then I'm like, if we're believing victims, then we believe victims across the board. 210 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:56,080 Like, I think that a lot of people who say like you can't separate the art from the artist 211 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:02,880 because like I don't like I don't listen to Kanye because I think that he's like insane. 212 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:09,760 The political beliefs that he has chosen to voice are completely bonkers and in my mind 213 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,360 fairly unacceptable. 214 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,980 And I think that's how a lot of people feel. 215 00:12:13,980 --> 00:12:16,000 Also he hasn't made a good album in years. 216 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,400 Respectfully, he has not made a good album in years. 217 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,840 And mentally ill doesn't mean bad. 218 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,000 Mentally ill doesn't mean bad. 219 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,040 I think that he hit the point of being bad when he got on national television and said 220 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,040 Hitler had some good points. 221 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,320 We don't have to agree with him. 222 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,440 One of the things that artists help us do is talk through challenging situations, mental 223 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,440 illness, Hitler, ignoring it doesn't work. 224 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,120 I'm not a fan of banning books or erasing history. 225 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,200 Let's put things out there and discuss with the intent to understand, maybe learn something. 226 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,160 No, I completely agree in that like I'm against censorship across the board. 227 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,800 And I think part of that is my profession in that people often will try to censor the 228 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,520 free press. 229 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,900 And like that's one of the 10 identified steps of fascism is to discredit and then censor 230 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:08,200 the free press. 231 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:14,320 Because the free presses job is kind of to keep government and people in power in check 232 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,080 and make sure that they continue to serve the people's best interest. 233 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,560 So once you're not serving the people's best interest anymore, then you have to make people 234 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:23,760 think that the media is lying to them. 235 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,880 It's interesting because when that happens, artists and journalists like yourself hold 236 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,360 politicians and others accountable. 237 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,440 And after when people are being held accountable by people in the public eye, they'll turn 238 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,280 around and say, oh, you're just a singer. 239 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:42,280 You're just an artist. 240 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,760 Or just shut up and dribble. 241 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,400 But the fact is, they are artists and citizens. 242 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,000 They have a right to a political opinion. 243 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,920 They empower themselves and others to help people feel less alone. 244 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,860 I think there's a lot of nuance to that because obviously, like, I do think that within the 245 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:09,800 internet age, people get to a point where like, they almost demand for singers and comedians 246 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,000 and like anyone like famous to immediately make a statement as soon as there's any kind 247 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:21,640 of political issue going on, which to me, I'm like, they signed up to sing songs. 248 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,960 I think Taylor Swift is a great songwriter. 249 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,920 I don't need to know her political beliefs. 250 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,160 If she wants to tell me, that's fine. 251 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,000 And that's her right as an American. 252 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,680 Or like that goes for foreign artists as well. 253 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,520 It's their right to tell me what they think politically. 254 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,880 But I don't think that's a requirement of the job. 255 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,360 Like I see the argument for like, you have a platform, you should be like commenting 256 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:44,400 on major issues. 257 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,360 But for me, I'm like, if I were in that position, like, I get stuff wrong too. 258 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,140 Human beings get stuff wrong. 259 00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:56,240 And like, for me, I wouldn't want to make a statement on like a massively complicated 260 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,560 global issue if I didn't know for sure that I was going to say the right thing, which 261 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:02,560 takes time. 262 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:03,560 I agree with you. 263 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,800 I don't think you should be obligated because you say so much through your art. 264 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:08,800 Yeah. 265 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,640 And I think that there is an argument as well for the fact that musicians, a lot of their 266 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,280 careers are inherently political. 267 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,200 And that like, yeah, or even just like a lot of politicians first songs are just about 268 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,960 things that they're pissed about going on in the world, which like, is completely fair. 269 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,920 I think that some people like, is Taylor Swift's opinion on Israel and Palestine going to change 270 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:31,920 yours? 271 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,320 Because like, obviously, it's a huge thing. 272 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,800 And people need to be raising awareness. 273 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,200 But also, she hasn't said anything. 274 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,640 It's been a year. 275 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,680 And people don't seem to be that mad at her. 276 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,680 I don't know. 277 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,480 I think it's a very interesting world that we live in because especially like, and again, 278 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,880 musicians, a lot of them are inherently political. 279 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,980 I think that people got very mad at quite a few celebrities when Israel and Palestine 280 00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:59,320 kind of like rocketed into the global consciousness after the October 7th attack last year. 281 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,080 And I think that some of them were unfounded and some of them were founded. 282 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,960 One of the celebrities that people got mad at was the 1975 Didn't Say Anything. 283 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:13,200 And I was like, okay, you can't get mad at people for expecting you to be politically 284 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,020 active when you have been. 285 00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:18,800 Like don't be political only when it benefits you. 286 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,320 Like if you care so much about politics and you that to the point where you want to make 287 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:30,360 it like part of your like brand, like love it if we made it by the 1975 was a huge song. 288 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,520 And it was a song that like they were, I'm pretty sure it was a single. 289 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Like they, and that is a very political song. 290 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,560 It's very staunchly anti-Trump. 291 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,280 It's essentially just talking about like the disenfranchisement that young people nowadays 292 00:16:45,280 --> 00:17:08,440 in particular are feeling politically. 293 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,480 And saying like, Hey, the world is a mess, but God wouldn't, wouldn't you love it if 294 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,480 we made it? 295 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,200 Like, I don't know if we will, but wouldn't it be great if we did? 296 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,280 Like, it's a, it's a political song. 297 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:26,200 So like now that you've kind of solidified yourself as a person who talks about politics, 298 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,760 there's still politics going on. 299 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,040 You can't like just dip your toe into politics. 300 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:37,280 And then like the second that people want more, I guess from you, then you can't like 301 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,560 get mad at them for that. 302 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,920 You set the expectation that you were going to say something. 303 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:42,920 I see a point to that. 304 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,560 But then there's also, I don't know what's going on in their life. 305 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,560 Yeah. 306 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,840 I mean, and that's a, that's a completely fair consideration. 307 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,080 Cause also like, while that was happening, like the lead singer like got engaged and 308 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,080 stuff like that. 309 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,720 So I'm like, he seems to have like stuff going on. 310 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,440 That's personal life and professional life. 311 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,880 Sometimes they merge. 312 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,160 Part of like Taylor Swift is like listening to the album and then trying to figure out 313 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,160 who the songs are about. 314 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:14,120 Cause like her personal life is public or at least like her romantic life is. 315 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,000 And like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. 316 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,720 Like get your bag queen. 317 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:18,720 Most of us grew up. 318 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:19,720 Yeah. 319 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:20,720 We don't have cameras around us. 320 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:21,720 Exactly. 321 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,920 Then she's like publicly exiled for it. 322 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,460 I think that fan culture is a very interesting thing. 323 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:36,440 Fan culture in general, when it's women liking men, for example, One Direction, you see most 324 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,960 people that aren't teenage girls dismissing it immediately. 325 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,040 What I'm thinking of is another Rolling Stone article that made me pretty mad. 326 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:51,260 There was one that came out in like 2013 and it was like some, like again, like an older 327 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:54,000 like white dude. 328 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:01,760 And he described like the teenage girls that were One Direction fans as like banshees and 329 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:08,160 like crazy and like ready to like rip their own like ears off. 330 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:14,080 He painted this picture of like a teenage girl being a fan of something as like she's 331 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,080 insane. 332 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,080 She's crazy. 333 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,700 That just reminds me of when I've seen a footage from the Beatles. 334 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,960 There was a lot of comparisons thrown around to Beatlemania as well. 335 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,440 What's wrong with that? 336 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:25,440 Exactly. 337 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,760 Because I think that historically like the artists that now are like dad rock, like the 338 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:37,960 Beatles, like Frank Sinatra, huge like artists, when they were like in their prime, their 339 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,880 fans were primarily teenage girls. 340 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,720 But because it's teenage girls, it simply cannot be valid. 341 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,280 And it simply cannot be anything other than that that girl thinks he's hot. 342 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,520 Because women simply cannot just recognize talent. 343 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,660 Naturally not. 344 00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:55,360 Because you're a 14 year old girl. 345 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,240 So you don't know what good songs sound like. 346 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,420 You just think he's attractive. 347 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:05,680 Also when people say to other kids or teenagers, it's just puppy love. 348 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:06,680 It's dismissing it. 349 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,680 These emotions are very real and very potent. 350 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,480 The theme of the show, the radio show that I'm going to do later today is artists that 351 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,080 I think get too much hate. 352 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,960 And like one of them is One Direction. 353 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,640 Because I myself was a One Direction hater for a while. 354 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,960 Because I needed to be not like other girls, which feeds into misogyny. 355 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,160 But like, I was 13 and didn't know any better and that was patriarchy. 356 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,920 When you're 13, you're carving out your space, figuring out where you, where do I belong? 357 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,480 What do I really like? 358 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,480 It's completely understandable. 359 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,420 I've kind of come to terms with the fact that like, that was mostly me acting under patriarchy. 360 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:47,880 I just wanted to like be a smart person. 361 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,880 And I had been told that women couldn't be that. 362 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:50,880 Who told you that? 363 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,480 That patriarchy, essentially. 364 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,920 Because young girls kind of learn under patriarchy. 365 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:04,340 And I'm sure you know that girls are ditzy and boy obsessed and only care about looks 366 00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:05,920 and like all of that stuff. 367 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,200 And I just wanted to be like a three dimensional person. 368 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,440 My pronouns are she, they, them. 369 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,040 But I know that I read as a female, it depends on what I'm wearing. 370 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,520 And it is very interesting the treatment that you got. 371 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,080 When did it change for you? 372 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,840 Was that somebody that influenced you to look at things differently? 373 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,680 I think something just like switched for me. 374 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,680 I don't know. 375 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,240 Because when I was 13, I very much was like, no, like I'm not like other girls. 376 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,160 Like, I don't like One Direction. 377 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Like have you ever heard of 21 Pilots? 378 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,480 Like it was very like, like looking back, I'm like, girl, you're not that deep. 379 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,320 No, but you're just like any other teenager. 380 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,800 I was young. 381 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,280 But I think once I hit like a certain age of kind of just growing to be a little bit 382 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,160 more mature and like, I can't even like pinpoint the moment that it happened. 383 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,120 But I just was like, you know what, like screw it. 384 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,160 Like Taylor Swift is good. 385 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,720 And like One Direction is good. 386 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,000 And like, I think that a lot of pop music is good. 387 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,960 Like hating pop music does not make you deep. 388 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,600 It just means you don't like fun things. 389 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,680 That and that you're also forgetting about the theory that a lot of songs use, which 390 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,400 is like a recipe. 391 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,400 One, four, five. 392 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,400 Exactly. 393 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,200 I'm like, that is a very satisfying resolution. 394 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,200 Exactly. 395 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:29,640 Like on a theoretical level, pop is short for popular. 396 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,400 It's popular because it's satisfying to the ear. 397 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,000 Like it's popular for a reason. 398 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,480 People like it. 399 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,920 There is no shame in liking things. 400 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,880 So you know how last semester we did that concert with the crew? 401 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,960 They brought like young gravy here. 402 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,920 Yeah, I remember hearing about that. 403 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:47,920 And I interviewed him. 404 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:48,920 Oh cool. 405 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,800 So I did do a bunch of research about him. 406 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,800 And while I was listening to some of his music, I was like, I don't hate this. 407 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,360 Like I think this is kind of funny. 408 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:01,440 I grew up on a lot of like old like hip hop and stuff like that from, because both my 409 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,260 mom and my dad really were into like hip hop and freestyle and stuff like that. 410 00:23:06,260 --> 00:23:07,360 It was reminiscent of that. 411 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,040 I was like, no, because he doesn't take himself seriously. 412 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,920 I think that some of my favorite rap songs are like when people aren't afraid to like 413 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,720 be funny or like be clever. 414 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,720 Do you have a favorite rap song from your house? 415 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,720 Bust a Move. 416 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,800 This here's a chant for all the fellas Try to do what those ladies tell us 417 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,880 Get shot down cause you're over zealous Play hard to get females get jealous 418 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,720 Okay smarty go to a party Girls are scantily cladded showing body 419 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:40,720 Classic but like not afraid to like be funny and like be clever in the lyrics. 420 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,640 And I kind of heard some of that same quality in some of the Young Gravy songs. 421 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,720 I was like, you know what, like I'll, I'll rhyme for this. 422 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,600 Like I think this is fine. 423 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,280 The more you know about things, the busier writer and artists and musician you will be. 424 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,560 100%. 425 00:23:54,560 --> 00:24:01,120 Even going back to politics and music, I think that a lot of artists steer clear of politics 426 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:05,080 because they don't want to alienate people who are listening. 427 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,000 Even like, I keep going back to Taylor Swift, but we see that with her political statements. 428 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,200 She's a great business person. 429 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:15,000 Yeah, she's a great business person, but like political spokesperson, not so much. 430 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,080 And I love Taylor Swift. 431 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:21,800 I think she is a spectacular songwriter and like I think she is a once in a generation 432 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,800 talent. 433 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:30,160 But for politics, I don't, I don't love cause she only really makes political statements 434 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,080 that everyone can get behind when it benefits her. 435 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Like business move. 436 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,760 Yeah. 437 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:37,760 Fantastic business move. 438 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:45,320 She's, she's getting her capitalist bag, but sometimes that comes at the expense of like 439 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,760 not saying anything about like anti-trans legislation in the South until you're not 440 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,320 actively touring the South anymore. 441 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,880 Three months after everyone else was talking about it. 442 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,360 Like it's, it's a business move. 443 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:04,200 And we know why she does it because she's the biggest pop star in the entire world. 444 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,020 Her political statements are just like girl power. 445 00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:12,200 No one, like no one's going to be like, no, not girl power. 446 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,360 If you're expecting like riveting political activism from Taylor Swift, then I think you 447 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,280 need to adjust your expectations. 448 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,200 She got into self advocacy, it's wrong with reputation, which I thought was really important. 449 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,840 Which I think is a very important conversation to have around women and music. 450 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,600 Yes, let's have that. 451 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Yes, for real in that women need to reinvent themselves constantly in order to stay relevant 452 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:44,960 and stay interesting to male consumers who tend to get over women very quickly or even 453 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,320 not even male consumers because female consumers do it too. 454 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,320 Yeah. 455 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:55,240 We get over things very quickly, but specifically women, uh, women identifying people, you just 456 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:56,240 have to work harder. 457 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,240 Yeah. 458 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,280 And I mean, Taylor Swift does a whole song about that, which I think is a bop. 459 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,920 Like she has a whole song called The Man where she's talking about like, I'm so sick of running 460 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,080 as fast as I can. 461 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,840 Wonder if I'd get there quicker if I was a man. 462 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,800 You would. 463 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,000 I would be complex. 464 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,000 I would be cool. 465 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,120 They'd say I played the field before I found someone to commit to. 466 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:26,080 And that would be okay for me to do. 467 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:44,400 Because she wouldn't get slut shamed nearly as much as she does if she were a dude. 468 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,400 She wouldn't get slut shamed at all. 469 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,400 Probably. 470 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,400 No, you get high five. 471 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,400 Exactly. 472 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,400 You get a high five. 473 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,400 You'd be, you'd be a player. 474 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,400 Yeah. 475 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,680 But instead she's a bitch because what she dates the normal amount that someone in their 476 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,320 twenties is supposed to date. 477 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,560 Like, come on. 478 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,960 Haven't we outgrown that? 479 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:08,360 I don't care for misogyny or homophobia or racism or any of that because like, it's like 480 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:09,360 embarrassing. 481 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:10,940 Like it's 2024. 482 00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:11,940 Get over it. 483 00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:14,720 I think we've gotten this far because of music and art. 484 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,720 Yeah. 485 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,040 Like I don't even, I don't mean get over it to the victims. 486 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,960 I mean like to the perpetrators. 487 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,400 I'm like, are you still on that? 488 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,620 Like it's 2024. 489 00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:23,620 Get over it. 490 00:27:23,620 --> 00:27:25,880 Gay people can get married. 491 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,800 I like to remind people of something. 492 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,560 It wasn't long ago that you and I could not be in the same room because we're different 493 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,480 skin tones. 494 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,760 Society spoke about people of color the same way they speak about gay, trans or non-binary 495 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,760 people. 496 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,880 It's quite ridiculous because you're just my fellow human. 497 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,880 Yeah. 498 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,560 Like to hate someone that much. 499 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:48,560 How do you have the energy? 500 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,000 That, that's a lot of therapy that that's not for me to do. 501 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,000 Yeah. 502 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,200 If you can't like accept that like people exist, then I think that you're going to have 503 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,760 a very hard life. 504 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,920 But wait, who's going to come to the rescue? 505 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,440 Music, I think absolutely like the entertainment field in general. 506 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,440 Yes. 507 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:16,200 Like, like with disco platformed minorities in a way that very few other fields could 508 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,480 even within like all of our memories, like gay marriage was legalized in what 2015? 509 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,640 Like, which is insane. 510 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,280 The fact that I am 20 and gay marriage has not been legal for my whole life. 511 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,880 It would have, it would have taken a lot longer if gay people hadn't existed so openly and 512 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,560 so freely in pop culture. 513 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:43,200 A big shout out to our brave queer ancestors who fought for our rights. 514 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,680 Thank you for doing the challenging work. 515 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,400 Let's honor them by picking out the right shoes, stretching down the street to a bosomless 516 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200 brunch and celebrate their fabulousness. 517 00:28:54,200 --> 00:29:00,200 When you are a member of a marginalized group, sometimes simply existing is protest. 518 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:10,160 And I think that like music is such an accessible and easy way just to exist as a queer artist. 519 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:16,400 Even the 2000s, which is insane, was like, I remember. 520 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,120 Yeah, like people were like, you're so brave. 521 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,040 But it's like they just exist. 522 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,040 Like that's just a person. 523 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,880 And I think that a lot of people realized that because they had like examples. 524 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,520 But being bi was such a huge thing. 525 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,620 Oh my God, David Bowie. 526 00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:35,440 The amount of times where people would be like, oh, so you're gay. 527 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,440 And he'd be like, no. 528 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,160 I mean, he did a lot for fashion. 529 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Because in my opinion, clothes are just clothes. 530 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,720 They're not gendered. 531 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:46,720 They're not marketing. 532 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,920 I mean, yes, if you have breasts or penis, there's a little bit of extra cloth that might 533 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,920 go into it. 534 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:53,920 But what the fuck? 535 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:54,920 What do you want? 536 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,920 Yeah, like it's just a different shaped body. 537 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Yeah. 538 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,920 What makes you feel beautiful? 539 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,480 But the fact is people still get harassed for that. 540 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,200 But I think David did a lot for that. 541 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,400 My mom's a really big Bowie fan. 542 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,400 And she. 543 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,400 I want to meet your mom. 544 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:09,400 She's so cool. 545 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,760 She's the best. 546 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,960 But Bowie is one of the artists that like very much stuck with me. 547 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,600 That my mom like played as a kid for me a lot. 548 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,680 And like, I just think he's incredible. 549 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:28,440 Like I. He did so much for like masculinity and like the idea of like what it means to 550 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,440 be a man. 551 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,960 And Prince did the same thing of like what it means to just be a man and dress like a 552 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,600 man and act like a man and date like a man and like. 553 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,720 All of the ideas of patriarchy. 554 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,760 One thing that is interesting because music definitely did do a lot for mental health. 555 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,760 And yes, I know. 556 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:54,080 I think this is really important because the whole masculinity thing. 557 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,480 We talk a lot about women and I love it. 558 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,480 But I'm also a big fan of talking about men's emotions because they're so stigmatized. 559 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:01,480 100%. 560 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:06,200 And I think music did a lot to help people get resources, including. 561 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,200 Absolutely. 562 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Rap music did that. 563 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,520 There's an artist called Chris Kills. 564 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,240 Something raps about him being a thriver, a survivor and dealing with that. 565 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,560 Another musician told me first time I saw Michael Jordan cry was the first time I had 566 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,440 permission as a black man to cry. 567 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,440 This is somebody in their fifties. 568 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,440 Yeah. 569 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,440 And so mailed into fighting people talking about emotions does a lot for culture because 570 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,760 we're still in an era that, oh, be a man or you're too sensitive. 571 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,000 Or is that everybody's sensitive? 572 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,000 Yeah, absolutely. 573 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,280 Like, oh my God, like I cry all the time. 574 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,280 Yeah. 575 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,280 It feels good. 576 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,280 Yeah. 577 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,280 Like you need to sometimes. 578 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,680 Like I think I would probably be like a psychopath if I didn't cry all the time because I just 579 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,320 have so many emotions built up. 580 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,280 Like I don't, I don't think I'd be nearly as like healthy. 581 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:02,640 Well, crying is healthy, but that's one thing that we don't give permission to men to cry. 582 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:03,640 Yeah. 583 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,640 Songs. 584 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,640 Music does. 585 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,640 Music does. 586 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,600 It's the beautiful thing is that music, they expect you to talk about your emotions. 587 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,600 Yes. 588 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,160 And that lets men talk about their feelings, which is so good because they like they're 589 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,640 expected not to. 590 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:18,640 Yeah. 591 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,640 Be strong and never cry. 592 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,640 Exactly. 593 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,120 And survive and, and provide for everything and everyone, but don't you cry. 594 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:27,120 Exactly. 595 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,120 And if you do be a man. 596 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,880 Like, what a horrible thing to say. 597 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:31,880 Literally. 598 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,600 What a, what a horrible thing that patriarchy has done to all of us. 599 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,680 Like it's, it doesn't just hurt women and non-binary people. 600 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,080 It hurts men too. 601 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,080 Yeah. 602 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:49,760 And I think that music is a beautiful subversion of that in that it encourages men to be like, 603 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,320 no, how are you feeling? 604 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,280 Like talk about, talk about it. 605 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,240 Like write a song about your feelings. 606 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,080 Because also if you don't, then people are going to be like, well, why, like, what are 607 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,080 you talking about? 608 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,760 Like people kind of expect you to talk about your feelings in music. 609 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:03,760 Yeah. 610 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,920 Like I can't think of even like a single artist that I know of that doesn't have any songs 611 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:10,920 about like an emotion. 612 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:11,920 Yeah. 613 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:12,920 I can't tell you that. 614 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:13,920 Yeah. 615 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,280 Like because people write about emotions, people write about what they know and like 616 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,800 male musicians write about their feelings and it encourages them to talk about their 617 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,840 feelings, which is a great thing. 618 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,520 Music has given people a way to make support groups for that. 619 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,520 Music is the key. 620 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,960 In my opinion, music can unite the world. 621 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:34,960 Yeah. 622 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,080 Because people love to pretend that men don't have problems. 623 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,640 When like we all have problems. 624 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,640 Yeah. 625 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:40,920 I think we all have problems. 626 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,400 They suffer from eating disorders. 627 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,360 It's the same thing that happens to women, happens to men. 628 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:46,360 Yeah. 629 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760 And that like, just because it happens at like higher statistical rates among women 630 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,000 doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to men. 631 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,520 And that doesn't make it less valid when it does happen to men. 632 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,560 Like it's not like the fricking trauma Olympics. 633 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:58,560 Yeah. 634 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,600 It's like competing to see who's more oppressed. 635 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,680 No one benefits from patriarchy. 636 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,680 It's bad for everybody. 637 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,360 Like it's not like it's great for men and terrible for women. 638 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,520 It's not good for them either. 639 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,840 Laying out of society according to patriarchy hurts everyone, not just women. 640 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,760 And I think that that's an important thing to like talk about because also some people 641 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,560 aren't men or women. 642 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,320 And then patriarchy has no idea what to do with them. 643 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,480 And then you let them exist and everybody gets the same right. 644 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,480 Exactly. 645 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:36,480 And that like, it's, I don't know, it's a system that does not work. 646 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:42,480 It absolutely doesn't work for anyone involved. 647 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,040 And if you ever need help or someone to talk to, the Entertainment Community Fund, formerly 648 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,800 known as the Actors Fund, is there for you. 649 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,160 They provide free help to anyone in the entertainment industry. 650 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,680 And if you don't need help, perhaps you can volunteer and help somebody else. 651 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,920 No, no, they're not sponsoring the podcast. 652 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,840 You deserve to know the resources that are available to you. 653 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:10,640 But hey, from time to time, we all need to pretend to be the one person village. 654 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:17,000 But as we know, I get by with a little help from our friends. 655 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,880 I think we're doing a lot to make things better, but I just keep plugging everything back to 656 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,000 art because I don't know any other vehicle that allows us to cope with and change to 657 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,040 make signs, protest signs, to stand there and make people feel less alone. 658 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,600 Yeah, there's a reason people chant at protests. 659 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,600 It's a form of singing. 660 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:41,840 Can you point to a specific song or album by women that have had measurable impact on 661 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,720 legislation or cultural norms around women's rights? 662 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:47,960 That's a whole show right there. 663 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:54,880 Yeah, I was going to say women's contribution to like society has already. 664 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,880 You can talk about that for a very long time. 665 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,440 Yeah, it's even though according to the public school system, white men invented everything 666 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,400 except for peanut butter. 667 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,760 Who invented peanut butter? 668 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:05,760 George Washington Carver. 669 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,680 He was a black guy. 670 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,400 Women have never invented anything. 671 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:10,400 Thank you, public school. 672 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,880 Oh, no, not the dishwasher, not the windshield wipers in the car. 673 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,760 I was going to say everything was invented by white men except for peanut butter. 674 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,760 Thank you, public education system. 675 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,760 So. 676 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:24,760 Peanut butter and chocolate? 677 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:25,760 Now I'm getting hungry. 678 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:26,760 I was going to say I'm so hungry. 679 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:35,760 A very special thanks to you for hanging out with us and to Matheela Cook, her work is 680 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:36,760 linked to this episode. 681 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,760 The theme and transition music for the show is composed especially by Shozzett Silva. 682 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,960 This episode was produced, recorded and mixed by them as well. 683 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:51,640 And thank you to the University of Delaware's WVUD where parts of this episode were recorded. 684 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,120 Keep making art, keep making music. 685 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,360 It is more powerful than you know. 686 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:13,160 And remember, only your rhythm.