That was Vols a la Francaise, and it was composed
and performed by Zhenia. Today I am speaking
to the Ukrainian -born pianist about her yoga
-inspired piano method, piano yoga. Zhenia, it's
great to have you on the podcast today. Oh, it's
a pleasure to be here, Erica. Thank you for inviting
me. You're very welcome. We are here to talk
about your method, piano yoga, of which you are
found... So firstly, before we get into the nitty
gritty detail of piano yoga, I think it's really
interesting to find out how you invented it,
how you created it and why. Well, I wasn't planning
to create it and all what happened because I'm
quite petite and I have quite small hands. And
my professors were fantastic, especially in Ukraine,
but they all had really large hands. And they
said, look, there is a number of pieces from
piano repertoire which you should never touch.
And one of them was Rachmaninov Rhapsody on the
Scene by Paganini. But of course, all I wanted
to play was Rachmaninov Rhapsody on the Scene
by Paganini. And then I did a little bit of a
cheeky thing. I was talking to a conductor and
who didn't know about all my, you know, all this
conversation. And he said, Shania, what would
you like to play? We have, I really want to perform
with you. What would you like to play? And I
said, I would like to play Rachmaninov Rhapsody
on the scene by Paganini. And so we had a date,
we had an orchestra, everything booked. and only
after that I opened the score and I thought oh
my goodness how am I going to play because I
realized that the chords were bigger than the
capacity of my hands and also I didn't have the
strength and by some reason you know because
I was quite young I thought there must be a system
there must be a method which already exists which
would allow me to stretch and strengthen my hands.
So I spent about, I think, two months going to,
it was in the last century, by the way. So I
went to different music shops. I look online,
but at that time it was a limited choice, not
as big as now. And although I could find separate
exercises, there are some separate exercises
for stretches, but there were not a single program
which would take me from where I am now with
my little stretch, which was like eight, and
take me where I wanted to be. And at the end,
it was six months before I had to perform. And
I said to myself, look, either I have to pull
out or I have to create something. myself but
i have to start working on it there's no more
looking and at that time i was doing a lot of
yoga and i had a very very good teacher um because
initially i got into yoga because i used to play
and practice as every student in piano eight
hours a day start having back problems and found
out that yoga really helped me and healed my
back so i got into yoga and suddenly i thought
i feel even taller was doing yoga oh yeah and
i said well why don't i try the ideas the principles
which we apply to the whole body in yoga just
apply it to my hands and that was the start of
it and there was a lot of experimentation And
I created the exercises, which really helped
me. And as a result, I went and I performed.
And I have this recording on the SoundCloud,
so people can actually listen, recording from
that particular performance. And I was really,
and I discovered so many things. And at the same
time, I was already teaching. So I had my students
who were coming, and all my students were...
full of music you know i was writing by hand
and they said to me jenya oh can we try the exercises
we want to try as well and that gave me an amazing
opportunity to experiment not only on my hands
but on the people with different hand sizes and
to see a different headspace as well you know
and it was fantastic and i could see that it's
really working and that was the start of piano
yoga That is so interesting because a lot of
pianists and teachers will say that it's a bad
idea to try to stretch fingers and hands. We
all know Schumann's story, right? Yes. Who damaged
his hands. Yes. Yes. So this is obviously a way
in which you're not... putting any stress on
anything no no no no you're using your body you're
using your breathing and um i mean i had to obviously
late as a method became a book and before i published
it as a book i took it to um clinical hand specialist
Catherine Butler and she approved the method
she studied it and the whole idea is basically
the method for people who play piano they would
understand is based on succession playing succession
of certain chords in broken way but with every
new chord the stretch is increased by a semitone
so you can really you first of all there's a
starting point you can decide where you want
to start because for some people for example
the very start is too easy so they don't want
to waste the time because it starts so really
people small hands of diminished sevenths but
then with every chord the stretch slightly increases
and if you do it what i discover if you do it
every day and also if you do it with breathing
Your body, it doesn't work. I wouldn't say it
works for 100 % of people. No, of course not.
Some people, for example, I know that some people,
they just don't have this capacity to stretch.
But it works for more than half. For more than
half, it does work. And you do it really safely.
And you are the one who is in control. So you
can decide how much you want to push. And you
need to create the right atmosphere for it. It's
not like you just walk out from the street and
start stretching it. It's a process. And that's
exactly what I was looking for. I didn't want
just an exercise. I wanted something which would
take me from... stage one when i can't do anything
or where i am right now and take me slowly slowly
slowly to a capacity and now i'm doing tens easily
oh yeah yeah yeah so for me it's good but what
i also discovered which was i wasn't planning
but it's incredible that the fingers become very
very strong especially proximal phalanx the bottom
part of the finger And that's good for any playing,
you know, whether you want to stretch or not,
because that will give you that clarity in playing.
And I... think it can do this is my belief personally
more than Hanon exercises for example which people
do fast and I mean I have issue with Hanon because
also Hanon you need to know how to do it yes
you know I had a student who did Hanon he didn't
tell me he did Hanon for an hour and ended up
having a problem with his thumb But with piano
yoga, we do work very slowly and very consciously.
And we are building... Is that going to the gym?
You know, if you go to the gym, Erica? No. Sorry,
everyone. For people who do. If you do something,
not fast, but really slowly and consciously,
you can actually build your strength. And that's
so important for playing. So interesting. Now...
You were talking about three pillars and now
I believe at the moment you're talking about
the hands, aren't you? Yes. In piano yoga. So
if you can explain to everybody that you say
that piano yoga is clearly structured around
three main pillars. yes first of all what is
piano yoga piano yoga is a method of piano playing
and i want to be very clear about this like what
the main purpose of the piano yoga is a piano
technique it was described i think by piano yoga
and health magazines first the new technique
which was developed in the last 50 years it is
a technique however um How does it differ from
other piano techniques? It utilizes the body
of the player. yes and the mind of the player
but first of all you know the body so for example
some piano schools they say you do everything
like i'm obviously i'm simplifying it but they
would say oh this you would like french piano
school is very well known of playing with a close
hand i call it cat cat fingers And some schools,
for example, use more body weights than others.
So things like that. With piano yoga, we say
everything goes as long as it works within your
body, within your anatomy. So, for example, if
I use myself, someone like me, I'm quite petite.
I have a long... both like legs for my for me
being pity and the shorter upper body yes so
when i play piano i take this into consideration
if i were teaching a student who is tall tall
long limbs uh tall upper part you know i would
possibly won't give him the things which i would
do myself because and i would explain it to him
so i also teach people to understand how their
own body functions do you see what i mean and
use their own mind and their own judgments so
i educate them which is great not only for piano
playing is actually great for everyday life You
know, because it's good for us to know, because
sometimes we don't think. And then we say, oh,
I suddenly have pain here, pain here. Oh, I've
been sitting at the desk for five hours and now
I have pain in the right part of my neck. And
I said, well, look how you sit. Can you see that,
for example, your right shoulder is falling forward?
Can you see this? Yes, I can see that. So I teach
them and then they start. doing something which
is called body mapping they can read their own
body and they become in control of their own
body which is fantastic you know that's very
interesting so you don't really have a one one
position fits all No, absolutely not. And your
answer is why is it body, obviously hands, because
we play with the hands. Why is it body? Because
hands are connected to the shoulders, to the
upper part, we control from the back. The position
of the back is determined by the hips. The position
of the hips starts from the feet. Everything
starts from the feet. So when we work, again,
on the piano technique, i would start with the
feet and i do exercises and that would very much
determine certain things or how you do it on
a piano it's very interesting it's very interesting
um and then of course mind because with the mind
you need to take all this you want you need to
understand what you are doing and you're doing
it consciously rather than unconsciously So that
is why this has these three pillars. How very
interesting. You talk about focus and concentration,
the mind. Obviously, that's a big deal when it
comes to performing. So how does piano yoga help
with that to perform? Many different ways. So
if we talk, for example, just about concentration.
Yes. Because to perform. you need there's a concentration
aspect but they also stage right nerves aspects
that two different things but the first one the
concentration the simplest thing for example
i invite people to do every day before their
performances let's say seven for at least for
seven days to do three pause three pause is when
you stand on one leg okay and you are trying
to keep your balance and you're focusing. But
I made them kind of look at the piano and the
keys so it's a little bit more focused. And then
people will learn. But basically, then I challenge
them. So I make them feel so uncomfortable. So
unless they use the gaze to look at the piano,
they will fall. And then what they do, they remember
that energy, that strength, that feeling of concentration.
So when they go on the stage, they can take that
energy and they can apply to their performance.
it's one of the examples that but that's very
strong and that's very easy to explain because
basically if you don't stand correctly you will
fall so you have to do everything no it's very
simplified then uh we have we do something called
piano yoga meditations and i'm actually next
week i'm launching again new digital course with
piano yoga meditations And that's, again, something
which helps you to program the mind. This is
much more gentle, mild, but there are some meditations
people use before practice, for example, because
lots of people, you know, it's not just to practice
piano. It's not just to get to the piano. You
need to be in the right frame of mind because
you can get to the piano, but if your mind is
elsewhere or if you're disorganized, you might
waste your time. So we do things like this for...
meditations to get again to get your mind to
get yourself in a certain state and that is how
piano yoga helps that's very interesting but
let's say you're learning a Beethoven sonata
movement you know you're sitting down you think
right now I've got to learn this movement how
how does the piano yoga method find itself into
the repertoire I'm trying to okay well that's
why that's actually quite simple because the
piano yoga book uh which i published is it was
a little bit controversial because the message
is based on practicing with straight fingers
but not with a flat hand so the arches need to
be maintained so i always say you know the arch
here which supports all the finger then something
called senior muscle which is our thumb muscle
and hypersina it's it's a side which is connect
to the little finger and if i were teaching kids
or i wanted to explain someone who doesn't play
the piano said look at the hand this is our roof
where the knuckles are. This is our walls. What
would happen if the roof collapses? The house
will collapse. What would happen if the wall
collapses? Again, it will collapse. So to play
piano, these three elements need to be engaged.
Now, whether you want to do it with the round
fingers or straight fingers, it depends on what
sound you want to achieve. So, for example, if
you play Chopin, Where we want beautiful legato
on the top voice. If you play Bach, where you
slow Bach, second movement Italian concerto,
where you don't want to use much pedal, but you
want to create that sound, you would benefit
by using more of your finger part and finger
with the weight on a key. Yes. But if you do
fast passages, something very quick, of course,
it's much better to use rounded fingers. So my
students know sort of straight fingers are called
duck fingers, piano yoga duck fingers, and round,
they're called cat fingers. So to answer your
question, if someone is playing Beethoven, you
can, for example, see, okay, what sound do I
want to create? and what finger positions I want
to use at certain points and it's not again let's
talk about pathetic so it starts with the chords
yes very slow start first movement so it's more
dark movements it's a weight you want the length
of the sound you want that heaviness now when
you get to page three or the far section yeah
it's cat fingers especially when you have you
want little you know so that's what piano yoga
does so it gives a lot of think about it if you're
a painter and you have a palette with lots of
colors once you know what each color is doing
what each technique is doing then you're just
applying it that's what it does It's very, very,
very interesting. And you say that sometimes
within seconds, a pianist can transform their
technique by making one small physical adjustment.
Correct. Correct. Exactly. Very often, for example,
when people play, you know, when people are nervous,
especially I notice it in, well, in both, but
female players even more. When they're stressed,
their shoulders go inwards. And they're a little
bit like bending like this. And they play piano
and they're not sure if they're doing right or
wrong. So when they do that, immediately what
happens is that there's a lot of tension built
up in the forearm, in the hands. The sound is
not clear. And even wrong notes because the whole
position is wrong. So I said, okay, let's just
start again. And we always start from the feet.
very precise piano yoga position because by the
way i also have this thing how to find the right
position at the piano and it's not about the
height because as i said height is different
from for everyone yeah it's how you build it
according to your body and you start from the
feet so i say to these people i said okay let's
put you in the correct position let's open your
back and immediately immediately the sound is
different you see the weight of the how the fingers
touching the keys is different yes and you can
do it really quickly sometimes with people what
it is they may sit correctly but their left shoulder
may be rolling forward for example all i do i
just put my fingers slightly on their shoulder
it goes literally maybe 10 degrees it opens up
and sound changes so stuff like that and you
see once people know it about their own body
then they can do it themselves i was going to
say let's say somebody's already got a teacher
you know they're studying with their teacher
they can implement it can't they even if they've
got another teacher absolutely i mean piano yoga
works with any any school of piano players absolutely
and um by the way i also also encourage uh students
to not in the past it was a record but now we
have this amazing opportunity we can video ourselves
and do you know how many people are afraid to
do this Because how often I say to pupils, I
said, look, you're coming here. But actually,
I know that if you saw what I see when you play,
you would have come because you now know about
piano. You could have come to the same conclusion.
You would have saved yourself a trip and money.
But people sometimes afraid, you know, they're
literally afraid. And I said, don't be afraid.
Just do it. And once they film themselves, they
have this knowledge of basic piano yoga palette.
They can do a lot. They can do really a lot.
So interesting. And so one doesn't really do
you have to do it every day? Well, obviously,
this is a philosophy almost, isn't it? Yes. Yeah.
So, wow. It's so interesting. And you. have retreats,
masterclasses, workshops. I was going to ask.
Yes. So for some people who are listening, this
is totally new. They've never heard about this
before. How do they dive in? You're not nearby.
They can't just call you up. How do they find
out about piano yoga? Well, there's many resources.
We have, by the way, a big YouTube channel. with
a lot of free resources so people can just try
it okay okay uh then we have also digital uh
online courses which again they can try it and
see if it's something they like one is based
on piano yoga book so it's basically they can
have me at any time there and study with me they
have 36 episodes on the book and i think three
bonuses as well so 39 episodes of piano yoga
book yes and another we have four and a half
hour really big um like it's a project on how
to organize your piano practice and it gives
people everything it gives people practice plans
and again it encourages people to think it doesn't
say you need to do this this and this and this
it says people okay let's talk about it what's
your priorities how you want to what is important
to you how much time do you have when when are
you best so people kind of with self -analysis
with a lot of support materials and then they
can take all this and i think their piano teachers
will be very happy because people will be much
better prepared for their piano lessons it's
like a conscious practice preparation so we have
this kind of we have this course but separately
of course I organize workshops which are half
a day things and retreats so the first one I
don't know when this will be published we have
in London on the 2nd of August on Sunday just
three hours in Kensington And then, of course,
the most important one is Introduction to Piano
Yoga, which we're doing at Steinway together
with Pianist Magazine on the 12th of September
at 2 .30. And it's a free event and people can
really come and dive in. And I will try to, we
have an hour, but I will try to be concise, but
give people something they can not only see,
they can try while they're there. Do they? Is
this yoga as in do they get on a mat or is this
at the piano? This one would be without the mat
because it will be sitting. But you can do a
lot of yoga because yoga, it doesn't mean necessarily
yoga on the mat. You know, what you do with hands
and the body, you can sit on a chair and do yoga.
And that's actually what we will be doing. I
want to give something to people, something which
they can use straight away. They can go to this
workshop, come out and say, okay, I've learned
this, this and this, and I can implement it now.
Interesting. And can piano yoga help pianists
who have hand injuries or problems? Big time,
because you know what? I broke my right hand
in 2018. And it was, I remember it, it was in
middle of May. And the 2nd of August, I had a
concert. And I was in a cast. And I remember
my manager called me and he said, oh, we really
need to do this concert. I said, look, it's a
timeout festival. I said, look, I can't do it
because I broke my hand. And he wasn't even listening
to me. He said, it's a really important event.
You really need to play. And I said, are you
listening to me? He said, but you need... I said,
okay, look. I am not canceling it. What I will
do, because I'm also a composer, I will rearrange
it for left hand. I will show up. So I start
preparing for this. But of course, meanwhile,
I wanted to play. And to cut the long story short,
when they took my cast, it was... Second week
of June, I remember I could just bend my right
hand literally maybe five degrees. It was terrible.
On the 2nd of August, I played 50 minutes concert
with both hands. That's remarkable. And I was
doing piano yoga. I was doing every day. I started
with a really, really weak, awful looking hand.
I couldn't even look at it, you know. But this
is what piano yoga does. You can start it with
very light touch when you're injured, really,
really softly. And again, the main thing is not
to push. So basically, my whole idea and philosophy,
you are the master of your playing, but also
you need to take responsibility, you know, for
what you're doing. And follow your... for your
development. Yeah. I mean, aside from the poor
breaking of the hand, do you yourself have any
technical struggles aside from... Oh, like everyone.
Of course, of course, like everyone, like everyone.
So, for example, my right hand, despite the fact
that it was broken, is unbelievably flexible.
So when I do octaves, like do -do -do -do -do,
it's very easy for me. My left hand, I think,
is 25 % less flexible. So it's always hard for
me. So I always had to do extra and, you know,
copy my right hand and use lots of different
exercises. So that's maybe one thing, like flexibility
of my left hand. Another, again, is double swords
is not much. I know my weaknesses, I know. And
I always work on them, always. I think it's very
important, actually. And I think, like, for me,
I always pick up a piece of music which I can't
initially play. I always want to play something
which is a bit more than I get. Yeah, always.
Because otherwise you stagnate, you know. Good
for you. Yeah. So what are you working on at
the moment? Are you giving any concerto performances?
Well, right now, yes, I'm working on a very interesting
project in Paris where, yes, it actually involves
a piano yoga with the body and everything. It's
very, like, interesting. I just played Bach concerto,
literally, last month. I premiered, for me, premiered
a Bach keyboard concerto number one with orchestra,
and that was amazing. I just discovered how Mordenbach
sounded. Totally. You know? And then, of course,
because I'm also a composer, I am releasing my
album Exhale in a few months, so everything is
targeted to that. But when I do my own concerts,
I don't just play my own music. I always mix
it, and I like mixing it with a classical repertoire.
which works for whatever music i play so it's
still i hope it's quite tasteful so if it's a
for example slightly minimalist concert i would
play Bach with it yes If the music is a bit more
flirty, I might play, I had my own arrangement
of Piazzolla, but in the beginning I can put
some Chopin Nocturnes because that's kind of
a link, you know, from Chopin Nocturnes to love
songs of Piazzolla. You can kind of make it.
So I like doing it like that. Nice. Seems that
your repertoire is very diverse. It is. It is.
Because I think, look, we are so blessed that
we have so much amazing music around us. Yes.
So why not? It's much better than to be, you
know, stuck in something once. I love playing
Beethoven. I love playing Beethoven. You know,
that's another thing. But it's also very important
how you present, how you mix it. Yes. You know,
so it stylistically makes sense because the audience
who will come for Piazzolla, they may not enjoy
Beethoven and why worse so? Do you see what I
mean? Interesting, but then you can introduce
them to something new. Yes, yes, like a little
drops. Yes. Like a little drops. Little drops
is good, that's absolutely true. Yes. Yeah. But
then having said that, you know, going and play
the full Bach concerto. It was amazing. It was
rewarding. And I think, my God, this is such
a beautiful music. Bach is, you know, a lot of
people, when I speak to them, a lot of pianists,
concert pianists will tell me it's either Bach
or Beethoven that they can't live without, you
know. And you can understand, if, you know, a
desert island, if you could only take one composer,
a lot of them will say Beethoven or Bach. Yes,
yes. Absolutely. There is something about that.
I mean, do you have any pearls of wisdom, advice
that you could give to an amateur pianist listening
in here about how to improve? Well, I think if
people want to improve, first, I think they need
to, for themselves, really decide what they want
to improve. Because so often people come to me
and say, we want to improve. But they actually
have very vague idea what they want. And I always
say to them, okay, let's actually decide what
does it mean? Oh, I want to play better. What
does exactly this mean? Do you want to master
a particular piece of music? Or do you want to
master a particular skill, like memorizing? Do
you want to give your... public performance or
do so it's very important i think to to really
uh finalize even write on a piece of paper what
you want because once it's done it might be much
easier to get there even it could be three things
it doesn't matter as long as they're very clearly
for the mind needs to be very clear you know
this is a really good idea really good idea I
remember that. That's very good. But listen,
Jenny, we're out of time now. And it's just been
so interesting listening to you and telling us
about, you know, if anybody's listening in and
they live in London or near London, come to the
Steinway event on the 12th of September. Yes.
And then they can meet you. and they can ask
me all the questions of course absolutely and
we also have social media we're on instagram
piano yoga studio yeah so they can you know get
in touch i'm quite active on social media so
okay yes Oh, I think that it's been very, very
interesting to hear this. I'll be there on the
12th of September. And I hope to see others there.
But Zhenya, it's been a pleasure speaking to
you today. Thank you. Thank you for having me,
Erica. Thank you. You're very welcome, Zhenya.
Thank you. Thank you. That was Voyage Francais
and it was composed and performed by Genia. Pianist
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