WEBVTT 00:00:03.529 --> 00:00:06.110 Will, it's great to have you on the podcast today. 00:00:06.250 --> 00:00:08.509 Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. 00:00:08.570 --> 00:00:10.890 It's great to be here. You're very welcome. We're 00:00:10.890 --> 00:00:12.910 here to talk about the score you've composed 00:00:12.910 --> 00:00:15.609 for Tuna. And for listeners who aren't aware, 00:00:15.730 --> 00:00:18.190 the film focuses on the life of a gifted piano 00:00:18.190 --> 00:00:20.769 tuner called Nicky, played by actor Leo Woodall, 00:00:20.890 --> 00:00:25.059 and his meticulous gift for cracking safes. Anyway, 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:27.539 I won't go into the plot. I've already interviewed 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:29.879 the film's director, Daniel Roa, for Pianist 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:32.899 magazine. But what I want to know is, firstly, 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:36.200 what made him decide it had to be you as the 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:41.320 composer? Goodness, well, I was very lucky to 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:45.200 be involved. I met Daniel, I was introduced to 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.420 him by the film's producers, Black Bear. I had 00:00:48.420 --> 00:00:51.119 scored two other movies of theirs, one called 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.350 Dumb Money, another called Immaculate. And they 00:00:54.350 --> 00:00:57.789 introduced me to Daniel. And I think the first 00:00:57.789 --> 00:01:00.710 thing that he explained to me was that he wanted 00:01:00.710 --> 00:01:03.609 to make a, after the success that he'd had with 00:01:03.609 --> 00:01:06.469 Navalny, he wanted to make a movie movie. He 00:01:06.469 --> 00:01:08.790 wanted to make a thing that he would want to 00:01:08.790 --> 00:01:10.829 watch, that he would want to be entertained by. 00:01:11.250 --> 00:01:13.549 And we talked a lot about the kinetic energy 00:01:13.549 --> 00:01:17.269 that he wanted, this kind of propulsion. And 00:01:17.269 --> 00:01:21.329 I think I got the gig because I, there's a lot 00:01:21.329 --> 00:01:24.719 of jazz. in the script, in the story. And I think 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:27.659 I got the gig because I asked the question, what 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:30.439 would it sound like if Bill Evans had access 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.060 to all of my analog synths and modular synths 00:01:34.060 --> 00:01:35.859 and all my various toys? And he was kind of like, 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:40.219 yeah, do that. I want to hear that. So we just 00:01:40.219 --> 00:01:43.739 kind of jumped in and we're off to the races. 00:01:43.859 --> 00:01:46.879 And the movie was finished. It was shot. There's 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:50.019 a lot of music that's performed on camera that 00:01:50.019 --> 00:01:52.709 was composed by Marius de Vries. so that was 00:01:52.709 --> 00:01:55.590 all completed and he he knew that he wanted the 00:01:55.590 --> 00:01:57.629 score to be something very different to that 00:01:57.629 --> 00:02:00.030 music yes that's what's very interesting because 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:02.609 i have listened to your tracks and and of course 00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:05.670 i've seen the movie um and absolutely you're 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:09.069 right very very different and i mean the piano 00:02:09.069 --> 00:02:12.349 doesn't really feature but i think it features 00:02:12.349 --> 00:02:14.909 in a slightly different way doesn't it if you 00:02:14.909 --> 00:02:18.409 could explain that Yeah, it does. I mean, this 00:02:18.409 --> 00:02:21.729 movie is about safe cracking. So, you know, obviously 00:02:21.729 --> 00:02:23.990 there's piano tuning in it, but there's also 00:02:23.990 --> 00:02:30.710 this other larger story. And I suggested this 00:02:30.710 --> 00:02:33.610 idea to Daniel kind of early on, like, wouldn't 00:02:33.610 --> 00:02:35.409 it be interesting if there was piano in the school, 00:02:35.469 --> 00:02:38.169 but it's not really, you don't identify it as 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:43.409 the sound of a piano. So I own these mallets 00:02:43.409 --> 00:02:49.729 that are kind of like MIDI. And I have a lobotomized 00:02:49.729 --> 00:02:52.250 piano harp in the back of my studio. Basically, 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:55.949 my wife had made it. She's a visual artist and 00:02:55.949 --> 00:02:58.349 she built an art piece using the hammers of the 00:02:58.349 --> 00:03:03.009 piano and had left me with the harp. I just have 00:03:03.009 --> 00:03:04.449 this thing sitting in the back and sometimes 00:03:04.449 --> 00:03:06.889 I use it for percussion and sound effects and 00:03:06.889 --> 00:03:10.270 stuff like that. So for Fortuna, I attach these 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:14.960 sticks. mallet midi mallet devices around the 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.039 harp and started programming these very complex 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:21.919 rhythms and they're almost inhumanly playable 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.300 they're very mechanical and and it's very percussive 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:29.599 and quite unusual sounding and it you know it 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.979 has a tone it has a pitch because it's coming 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:35.280 from the harp but it's definitely it it served 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.539 us really well as the sort of the sound of the 00:03:37.539 --> 00:03:40.280 safe cracking Oh, it's so interesting. So you 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.539 were really focusing on the safe cracking side 00:03:42.539 --> 00:03:45.280 of the story because there are two parallel stories 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.400 here, aren't there? There's piano tuning and 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.819 safe cracking. So you thought, that's me. I'm 00:03:50.819 --> 00:03:52.340 going on to the safe cracking side of things. 00:03:52.699 --> 00:03:55.979 I mean, it's certainly where I, that was my jumping 00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:58.819 off point. I think that in order to unlock the 00:03:58.819 --> 00:04:01.120 sound of the movie, Daniel felt like we needed 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.879 to figure out what these heist EQs were going 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.120 to sound like. He didn't want it to kind of be. 00:04:06.729 --> 00:04:10.770 a generic sort of heist sounding, you know, kind 00:04:10.770 --> 00:04:15.250 of funky vibe, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. 00:04:15.289 --> 00:04:17.050 He wanted something a little more unusual. So 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:20.129 from there, once we kind of unlocked that, then 00:04:20.129 --> 00:04:22.029 there's a whole other side of the story, which 00:04:22.029 --> 00:04:26.709 is really Nicky's isolation. And that's much 00:04:26.709 --> 00:04:30.709 more of a melodic part of the score. It is fascinating 00:04:30.709 --> 00:04:33.569 because you're right when you said percussive, 00:04:33.569 --> 00:04:37.019 you know. The rhythms are fantastic. They're 00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:39.439 just as important as the sound, really, aren't 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:41.540 they? And having watched the movie, the whole 00:04:41.540 --> 00:04:44.279 clicking of the save, it is very, very rhythmic. 00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:47.519 So I think you've really created a fantastic 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:51.060 atmosphere there. Yeah, thank you. And it was 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.439 also really fun to kind of go back and forth 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:56.540 with Greg O 'Brien, the editor. When we were 00:04:56.540 --> 00:04:59.240 doing those sequences, I would start to score 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.730 it and I'd... get these rhythms and these sounds 00:05:01.730 --> 00:05:04.709 and and you know it's really edited really tight 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:07.269 um with the with the sound effects and with the 00:05:07.269 --> 00:05:10.110 music and greg would take my music and he'd be 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:12.550 like oh i just i wish if that frame was just 00:05:12.550 --> 00:05:15.529 over here a little bit and was lining up a bit 00:05:15.529 --> 00:05:17.529 more with what you've got here that would be 00:05:17.529 --> 00:05:19.850 so much better so we kind of went back and forth 00:05:19.850 --> 00:05:22.310 it was it was it was pretty great like sometimes 00:05:22.310 --> 00:05:24.810 you don't as a composer sometimes you come in 00:05:24.810 --> 00:05:27.769 and the edit is completely locked and that's 00:05:27.769 --> 00:05:30.259 it but in this case things were still kind of 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:32.759 moving around and he was able to really change 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.180 the edit according to so what i was working on 00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:36.660 well this is what's really interesting because 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:39.139 on our pianist podcast we don't normally interview 00:05:39.139 --> 00:05:43.399 composers for film um so it's it's a rather new 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.839 one i'd love to know how one goes about composing 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:49.319 music what is the process do you read the story 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.120 first yeah i mean it's every every project is 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.540 different we come on at different parts of the 00:05:55.540 --> 00:05:58.839 process Sometimes I read a script and I respond 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:02.639 to that and I'm involved very early on and maybe 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:06.680 even I'll have my music being played on the set 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.300 while they're shooting a scene. In the case of 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:14.759 Tuna, I came on pretty late and I think that 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.439 Daniel and Greg had already tried a bunch of 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.079 different things and decided on what they wanted 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.860 the score to function as. So in that sense, there 00:06:23.860 --> 00:06:26.480 was... There was experimentation on my end in 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.519 terms of sound, but it was pretty set what they 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.120 wanted the music to say. And sometimes they use 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:37.060 temp score, like they'll take pieces that exist. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.920 Sometimes it's pieces of mine that I've done 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.259 for different projects and they'll put those 00:06:42.259 --> 00:06:45.180 in there as like temporary music and it helps 00:06:45.180 --> 00:06:49.600 them to kind of inform the edit. Sometimes it's 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:51.699 the bane of a composer's existence. It's something 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:54.579 that we call temp love, where a director will 00:06:54.579 --> 00:06:57.040 get so used to a piece of music that they've 00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:58.899 been editing to, and then you come along and 00:06:58.899 --> 00:07:01.579 have to replace it. And sometimes it can be kind 00:07:01.579 --> 00:07:04.779 of a little complicated. In this movie, there 00:07:04.779 --> 00:07:07.459 was none of that, thank goodness. But yeah, that's 00:07:07.459 --> 00:07:11.500 definitely happened in the past. Yeah, I think 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:16.740 with Tuna also, the main thing, when you're scoring 00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:20.160 a... a movie like this i think melody is so important 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:24.399 and using melody for story um and i found myself 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.519 writing a lot of the melodies i'm a saxophone 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.839 player originally um and i found myself kind 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.699 of writing a lot of the melodies on that instrument 00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:39.779 for some reason interesting so let's say you 00:07:39.779 --> 00:07:42.259 don't read the script and think all right I now 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:44.860 have to compose this bit where he breaks into 00:07:44.860 --> 00:07:47.500 the safe here and then I now have to is that 00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:50.160 is that how it goes you know yeah it's sometimes 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.819 absolutely like you know there'll be a I tend 00:07:53.819 --> 00:07:57.600 to kind of watch something or or read a part 00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:59.819 of a script and then sit behind the piano and 00:07:59.819 --> 00:08:01.620 and start thinking about what I've just read 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:04.220 or what I'm watching um and I have this kind 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:08.000 of I call it this eureka moment where I'm I've 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:10.720 stumble on some chords or a melody that will 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.019 be a direct response to what i've just you know 00:08:14.019 --> 00:08:17.259 absorbed um sometimes it happens straight away 00:08:17.259 --> 00:08:19.860 sometimes it takes a minute but um i always have 00:08:19.860 --> 00:08:22.959 to have that kind of that moment of of discovering 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.040 the melody that you know one thing couldn't live 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.839 without the other interesting and i guess like 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:32.039 with a movie one can almost say it's a bit like 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.600 a symphony in that you've got to There's got 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:40.200 to be bits that intertwine, that it's got to 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.519 be cohesive as one from beginning to end, all 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:45.299 of your tracks. That's right. Yeah. And again, 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:48.059 I feel like for me, the key to that is melody, 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.120 like having some sort of thematic breadcrumb 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.679 that you can kind of use as a tool. A director 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.200 said to me recently that you have to let the 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.120 audience own the melody. let them wrap their 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.379 arms around the melody and then you can take 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:06.620 that melody and you can take a sledgehammer to 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:10.159 it, fragment it and use it as a tool and, you 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.840 know, use it contextually. And that's certainly 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.600 something that we were doing in Tuna. Wow. Well, 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.980 you obviously know so much about theory and composing. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.500 I mean, how did you get into, did you study composing? 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.840 I did, yeah. I mean, I took a bit of a funny... 00:09:29.179 --> 00:09:31.639 route to get here I went to the University of 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:34.659 Westminster in England did the commercial music 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:37.899 degree which had a little bit of recording and 00:09:37.899 --> 00:09:42.460 composition and music theory and whatnot and 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:45.759 I've always wanted to be a film composer I just 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.039 have always been obsessed with film school since 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.039 I was a kid and really the only thing I know 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.440 the only way I know how to make a living is writing 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:58.200 music and I think I was 20 two I'd come out of 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:01.379 college and I rather naively thought that scoring 00:10:01.379 --> 00:10:04.519 commercials would get me into scoring movies 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.379 so that would be a way in and of course it wasn't 00:10:07.379 --> 00:10:12.519 but it was a way that I was able to get a ton 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:15.179 of experience very quickly and got very good 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:17.340 at different genres and whatnot and then I moved 00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:19.960 to America and I became an in -house composer 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:23.039 at a music house there and all the while just 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.750 kind of Scoring commercials, being in bands, 00:10:26.070 --> 00:10:28.169 always performing, doing all kinds of different 00:10:28.169 --> 00:10:31.009 things. And then eventually just I found a group 00:10:31.009 --> 00:10:33.590 of indie filmmakers in New York and I started 00:10:33.590 --> 00:10:36.230 scoring their movies. And one went to Sundance 00:10:36.230 --> 00:10:38.250 and that was kind of the beginning of it all. 00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:41.529 Oh, how wonderful. That sounds like a dream, 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:47.610 really. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of hard work. I'm sure. 00:10:48.730 --> 00:10:52.700 Yes, I'm sure. You say you've always loved. um 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:55.860 wanted to be a film composer so you obviously 00:10:55.860 --> 00:10:58.960 have watched so many movies and so many are there 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.759 are there some composers that write for film 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:04.519 like legendary black and whites to the present 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.679 that you're just like such a big fan of of course 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.259 yeah i think i i sang the whole score of star 00:11:10.259 --> 00:11:12.899 wars to my parents when i was six years old and 00:11:12.899 --> 00:11:14.940 then they went off and bought me a violin that 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:19.059 i tortured them with for a while um but i yeah 00:11:19.059 --> 00:11:21.779 i mean when i i think i was a When I was a kid 00:11:21.779 --> 00:11:25.340 and I realized that one person had been responsible 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:27.940 for all these movies, all these tunes that I've 00:11:27.940 --> 00:11:30.059 been humming in my head, it was kind of like, 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:31.559 oh, I want to do that when I grow up. That's 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.460 amazing. The first record I bought was Enya Morikone's 00:11:35.460 --> 00:11:37.820 score to The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. I still 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:41.220 play that to my kids. I kind of can't believe 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:44.840 that someone invented that language that's such 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:48.350 a... Pea shade at this point, but all of those 00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:52.370 colours. Morricone is amazing. Did he do Cinema 00:11:52.370 --> 00:11:56.090 Paradiso? He did. That's right. He did do. And 00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:58.350 The Mission that he should have won the Oscar 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:03.590 for. And Bernard Herrmann as well. Oh, yes. Yes. 00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:07.669 Oh, I'm sure. How wonderful. I'm looking at you 00:12:07.669 --> 00:12:10.529 on screen here and you've got a lot of keyboards 00:12:10.529 --> 00:12:14.629 behind you. I do. Yes. You've got one, two, three, 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:17.279 four that I can see at the moment. Maybe tell 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:19.740 us a bit about them. There's dozens. Well, this 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:23.940 one here is called a Mellotron, which is famous 00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:28.759 for being the Strawberry Fields device. The Beatles 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.019 used it a lot. This one was built by the sons 00:12:32.019 --> 00:12:35.980 of the original inventor. They're based in, I 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:39.279 think they're in Sheffield. And it's basically 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.899 the world's first sampler. Each key activates 00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:46.350 a... a tape head and there's a tape that's revolving 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:50.049 around inside and the sound is kind of activated 00:12:50.049 --> 00:12:53.429 by playing the the tape head up against the the 00:12:53.429 --> 00:12:55.029 tape that's going around so it's kind of like 00:12:55.029 --> 00:12:57.429 it can play all sorts of different sounds yeah 00:12:57.429 --> 00:12:59.909 this thing is called a parlor organ that's next 00:12:59.909 --> 00:13:03.230 to it which is like a very old Hammond organ 00:13:03.230 --> 00:13:06.809 kind of thing and then that's my my piano over 00:13:06.809 --> 00:13:09.389 there that um my wife rescued from an estate 00:13:09.389 --> 00:13:12.700 sale oh my goodness Looks good. Isn't there something 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:15.320 like a glockenspiel too or something? Yeah, that's 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.440 a vibraphone. Vibraphone. Yes, I can hear that 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.159 quite a bit in the music. Is that right? Yes, 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:27.299 there's a couple of cues. It didn't make it into 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:29.259 the movie, but on the album, I ended up going 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:32.340 back to some earlier versions. It's one of the 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:34.340 nice things about making a soundtrack album for 00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.659 movies. You can kind of, you get so obviously 00:13:37.659 --> 00:13:40.570 you're... slave to the story and slave to picture 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:45.070 and when you remove that and go back to the kind 00:13:45.070 --> 00:13:47.169 of just the music it's kind of fun to just be 00:13:47.169 --> 00:13:49.009 like oh I've always wanted that piece of music 00:13:49.009 --> 00:13:51.990 to be 30 seconds longer and now it can it can 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:54.809 breathe a bit more so yeah amazing amazing I 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:57.230 think there is another interesting instrument 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:00.009 that we should know about in the movie a German 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:04.169 piano oh yes that is also somewhat piano related 00:14:05.750 --> 00:14:09.669 It's called a Stemgerat and it's a, it's a sort 00:14:09.669 --> 00:14:13.409 of a 1960s East German piano tuning device. I 00:14:13.409 --> 00:14:15.169 guess the idea was that you would put it on top 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:18.049 of the piano, has 12 buttons on the front that 00:14:18.049 --> 00:14:22.149 play pitches and it has a tiny speaker and it 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:24.250 plays a, I guess it has an oscillator inside 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:27.450 it and it plays a tone and you would use that 00:14:27.450 --> 00:14:30.070 as a reference to tune the piano. But it has 00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:33.929 just this lovely sort of slightly ghostly wonkiness 00:14:33.929 --> 00:14:38.269 to it that I, was really into. And I built a 00:14:38.269 --> 00:14:41.289 lot of the chords in the movie around layering 00:14:41.289 --> 00:14:44.750 these tones up together. Daniel started calling 00:14:44.750 --> 00:14:47.350 it the Stasi synth because, you know, East German. 00:14:47.509 --> 00:14:52.110 Oh my goodness. Yeah. Oh, East German tuner. 00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:55.629 Goodness. Yeah. Wow. Weirdly appropriate. And 00:14:55.629 --> 00:14:58.970 then also just I would run that thing into tape 00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:02.269 delays and other pedals and whatnot. And it became 00:15:02.269 --> 00:15:06.269 this kind of the sound of. Nicky's trauma, like 00:15:06.269 --> 00:15:09.490 his kind of jeopardy. Yes. When the tape's going 00:15:09.490 --> 00:15:11.610 around, I'm like playing it with my fingers, 00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:14.309 like as the tape is hitting the tape head, giving 00:15:14.309 --> 00:15:19.509 it this kind of tape slip sound, I guess. Interesting. 00:15:19.610 --> 00:15:23.029 And did the, when you were composing, did you 00:15:23.029 --> 00:15:25.990 know who was going to be the actor? Did you know? 00:15:26.289 --> 00:15:28.769 I did, yeah, because it was, the movie was shot 00:15:28.769 --> 00:15:31.759 and. The edit was pretty much finished. So of 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.059 course, yeah, I was like, oh my goodness. Are 00:15:34.059 --> 00:15:38.440 you kidding me? I got to meet a couple of times 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:41.399 at screenings and he's just an extraordinary, 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.200 lovely man. What an inspiration. And I think 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.539 I've met him once in a restaurant in London. 00:15:47.740 --> 00:15:50.759 Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I think he lived in or 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.620 lives in London. Yeah. I believe. I believe that's 00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:55.360 where Daniel met him for the first time. It was 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.639 a little local Italian restaurant, you know, 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.070 but. we were all like in awe you know but um 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:04.049 and i believe he also plays the piano he does 00:16:04.049 --> 00:16:07.149 yes that's right he uh from what i understand 00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:09.490 he he was going to become a musician and then 00:16:09.490 --> 00:16:12.509 acting kind of took over but yes he's a very 00:16:12.509 --> 00:16:15.710 accomplished jazz musician yes fantastic and 00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:18.629 of course leo goodall woodall why did i say goodall 00:16:18.629 --> 00:16:22.590 leo is such a star at the moment i mean he's 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.700 hypnotic on sprit on screen you know Yeah, it's, 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:30.279 what a charisma. And I guess I gather he did 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.659 a lot of work to, he's not, at least at the beginning 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:36.120 of this process, wasn't necessarily a pianist, 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.960 but he did the work, did three months of training 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.639 to be able to perform that piece at the end, 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:45.289 which is quite, quite amazing. That piece at 00:16:45.289 --> 00:16:47.549 the end is amazing. And obviously that was composed 00:16:47.549 --> 00:16:50.190 by Marius de Vries, wasn't it? That's right. 00:16:50.289 --> 00:16:54.070 Yes. And did you work with Marius a bit? This 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:57.250 is what's interesting to me. He is the executive 00:16:57.250 --> 00:16:59.809 music producer and you're the original score 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:04.250 composer. Correct. Do you work a lot together 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:07.170 or you don't need to? Not really. Yeah, it was 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:09.789 pretty separate. So Marius was involved in... 00:17:10.490 --> 00:17:12.529 picking the music that's basically in what we 00:17:12.529 --> 00:17:15.750 call the diegesis, what's in the universe of 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.490 the film. So anything that's on camera, music 00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:21.349 that's coming out of a radio, that kind of thing. 00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:25.650 So by the time I came on board, that was all 00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:29.329 kind of locked. So I had Marius's music when 00:17:29.329 --> 00:17:31.630 I was watching the cut and I would just have 00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:34.230 to make sure that there are certain moments where 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.049 my music overlaps with his and, you know, I have 00:17:37.049 --> 00:17:38.950 to be in the same key. I have to make sure it's 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:41.910 not a... A dog's dinner, as they say, when the 00:17:41.910 --> 00:17:44.549 two things collide. So, yeah, that was something 00:17:44.549 --> 00:17:47.950 I had to be mindful of. How interesting. Being 00:17:47.950 --> 00:17:52.009 in the same key. Yeah. Or at least related. You 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:55.890 know, I can't be like G and G sharp. You'll have 00:17:55.890 --> 00:17:59.269 to modulate very carefully. Totally. Yeah. Or 00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:01.490 be minimal. You know, there's a couple of sequences 00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:04.490 towards the end where the score is kind of already 00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:08.049 established itself. We already understand. the 00:18:08.049 --> 00:18:11.869 palette that it's in um and there's like a lot 00:18:11.869 --> 00:18:14.170 of music that's happening on camera and i just 00:18:14.170 --> 00:18:17.049 kind of have to provide tension and stay out 00:18:17.049 --> 00:18:19.890 of the way you know it's it's um it's a dance 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:24.529 sometimes this movie obviously is about a piano 00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:29.109 tuner and music but don't you think i mean has 00:18:29.109 --> 00:18:31.549 it been different for you composing for a film 00:18:31.549 --> 00:18:35.529 where music is an important part of the plot 00:18:35.529 --> 00:18:40.880 or Don't you think almost that music is sound 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.980 is such an important part of any movie? I mean, 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:46.920 it is, isn't it? Yeah, I guess I kind of do feel 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:50.319 like that. I've always felt that music can be 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:52.960 such a driver of story. But of course, because 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:57.819 this is such a music driven story, you know that 00:18:57.819 --> 00:18:59.500 it's going to have a different level of focus 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:02.619 on it. And particularly with sound, I think it 00:19:02.619 --> 00:19:06.829 was really important for Daniel to... to have 00:19:06.829 --> 00:19:09.890 it's never really underscore it's always like 00:19:09.890 --> 00:19:12.549 even if the score is minimal it's very much front 00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:14.670 and center and the same with the design where 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:17.390 he's using johnny burns of sound design to really 00:19:17.390 --> 00:19:21.289 be its own character and really draw out a certain 00:19:21.289 --> 00:19:25.049 kind of characteristic of nikki and his identity 00:19:25.049 --> 00:19:28.630 and his his hearing problems and all of that 00:19:28.630 --> 00:19:30.990 it's a it's a huge storytelling device in the 00:19:30.990 --> 00:19:34.319 film And the score is working in concert with 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:38.039 a lot of the design. And he obviously knew you'd 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:43.279 be perfect for that role. Yeah. Interesting. 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.140 Yeah. Yeah, no, he did say, he said that with 00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:49.119 Tuna, he wanted to invite viewers into a world 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.720 where music, sound and silence shape a man's 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.680 identity. What do you think to that? Yeah, I 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.950 mean, that's really, I think. After doing the 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:01.710 safe cracking cues, the first important cue that 00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:03.829 I had to write was we started calling it the 00:20:03.829 --> 00:20:08.190 lonely boy cue. And I really it's to do with 00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:11.470 because of Nicky's condition, he's just really 00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:16.029 isolated from society and having this hearing 00:20:16.029 --> 00:20:19.210 problem has made him kind of close off from the 00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:23.279 world. So, yeah, that was really. I think that's 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.519 really what Daniel's talking about. And that 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:27.460 piece of music was something that I had to kind 00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:30.500 of really uncover Nicky's identity, like really 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:36.500 get to know his lost dream. Yeah, because there's 00:20:36.500 --> 00:20:38.099 a lot of pain there. And there's also pain in 00:20:38.099 --> 00:20:41.059 his condition, in his hearing condition, that 00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:44.460 it causes intense pain. So there's a lot of sadness 00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:47.380 and pain in Nicky, isn't there? There is, yeah. 00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:50.259 And it certainly begins that way. And melodically, 00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:54.700 we start. with it feeling very kind of lonely. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.799 He's very isolated, but then he meets Ruthie 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.059 and taking that same melody and injecting some 00:21:02.059 --> 00:21:04.819 romance into it and some, you know, it brings 00:21:04.819 --> 00:21:07.339 him to life. And I think, again, that's kind 00:21:07.339 --> 00:21:12.599 of where using melody to shape the story arc 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:17.130 is so helpful. Interesting. And having... now 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:19.509 this is now over you've moved on what have you 00:21:19.509 --> 00:21:21.789 what have you learned from composing for tuna 00:21:21.789 --> 00:21:26.549 um goodness that's a great question I just thought 00:21:26.549 --> 00:21:29.990 of it yeah I I think that it's funny you bring 00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:32.789 up silence I think that um something that I've 00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:35.789 I've had to sort of really train myself and I 00:21:35.789 --> 00:21:38.809 think all of us are victims of this a bit that 00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:43.089 sometimes I can throw a lot at something um and 00:21:43.089 --> 00:21:48.289 I think Less is more. It's been really important 00:21:48.289 --> 00:21:50.650 to kind of understand the power of silence and 00:21:50.650 --> 00:21:53.470 the power of where you can just kind of let something 00:21:53.470 --> 00:21:57.529 breathe. And it makes music more impactful, I 00:21:57.529 --> 00:22:01.750 think, when you're more spare with it. And I 00:22:01.750 --> 00:22:04.509 do find myself doing that a lot with my work. 00:22:04.569 --> 00:22:08.269 I tend to write a lot and then use the sledgehammer 00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:11.029 approach, just kind of tear it apart and try 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:13.839 and figure out what is this thing? how can i 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:17.640 say the same thing with with less you know and 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.079 i i think especially with melody that's that's 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.599 really important i was listening when i was making 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:24.559 the record and listening to the those original 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:27.079 versions of lonely boy when i'm obviously just 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:29.480 stumbling around trying to find the melody still 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.980 there's always a lot of notes and i think that 00:22:31.980 --> 00:22:35.619 the more experience you you have the more you 00:22:35.619 --> 00:22:38.339 start to kind of train yourself to really just 00:22:38.339 --> 00:22:43.700 less you know just try to try to be more articulate. 00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.660 It is amazing. I guess it's, you know, also with 00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:50.200 classical music, some of the most beautiful melodies 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.000 are the simplest. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:53.099 --> 00:22:56.579 I agree. And where are you going? What's next 00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:58.579 in store for you? Are you already working on 00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:02.079 another project or two? Yeah, I had another movie 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:05.359 at Sundance with this one back in January called 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.160 Knife, which is the attempted murder of Salman 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.599 Rushdie. So we're... getting that one out there 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:15.460 soon um and then I'm on a I'm about to start 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:20.680 a tv show um which is very exciting lovely lovely 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.240 oh god we're nearly at the end I was just thinking 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.720 actually any advice for listeners who want to 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:31.160 follow the same that same career path um I think 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:35.039 yeah just listen to your heroes I uh I find myself 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:38.880 still just buying all those records and you know 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.920 consuming film scores and sometimes listening 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:46.220 away from pictures is really helpful and being 00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:49.220 able to kind of identify what what the music 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:51.579 is doing sometimes it's it's hard to kind of 00:23:51.579 --> 00:23:55.160 divorce it from the picture sometimes and just 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.940 being able to listen to it isolated is uh it's 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:01.299 a good thing to do and i guess also it's it's 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:04.180 hard to know when inspiration will hit isn't 00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:06.059 it you you know you can't just go and sit in 00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:08.640 a room and say right now it's i've got to find 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.900 the melody right well I do yeah it's a job isn't 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:17.720 it it is yeah my my wife like I said is a visual 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:23.500 artist and she she borrowed a a theory or a concept 00:24:23.500 --> 00:24:25.759 I guess from Francis Bacon that there's like 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:29.559 there's no such thing as inspiration like it 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.220 just comes from work like you just have to get 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.980 into like a rhythm and you have to just wake 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:38.079 up and do it every day and And then the inspiration 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.339 will naturally come. I kind of share that same 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:45.200 mantra that you just, if you treat it like a 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.680 regular thing that you do all the time, good 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.559 things start to happen. Are you like a nine to 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.460 five person? I mean, I tend to be. I have kids, 00:24:56.539 --> 00:25:00.299 so I sort of have to be in that sense. And my 00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:03.059 studio is, we bought the house next door and 00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:07.619 my studio is nearby. Brilliant. That's very key, 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.099 I think. Otherwise, my kids wouldn't remember 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:14.740 my name. Well, you seem to have it really well 00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:18.160 sorted there. You said you're in L .A.? Yes. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:23.339 Yeah. Perfect place. Yeah. Yeah. I was in New 00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.680 York for a long time and I realized I was just 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.420 I for a long time felt like I was in the wrong 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:32.099 town. So we rather than moving upstate when we 00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:34.440 decided to have kids, we were like, OK, time 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.519 to head west. Wow. Go where the film community 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.940 is. And a good decision. Seems to be, yeah. Great. 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.839 Oh, great. Well, listen, Will, it's been great 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:47.980 speaking to you. Yeah, great to chat to you too. 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.140 Absolutely. And, you know, I've seen the movie. 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.240 I think it's brilliant, sound included. And I'm 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.720 sure a lot of listeners now will go out and book 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.440 their tickets in the cinemas across the UK. Yes, 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.259 indeed. Please do. Yeah. And thanks so much for 00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:05.730 joining me. Thank you for having me. Great to 00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:10.990 chat. Thank you. Okay, I think that was fine, 00:26:11.089 --> 00:26:13.910 don't you? Awesome. Yeah, great. Awesome. I'll 00:26:13.910 --> 00:26:16.650 let the guys know when it comes out. It should 00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:19.990 be very soon, within a week. Okay, awesome. Good, 00:26:20.109 --> 00:26:22.190 because it's now just out today in the UK. It 00:26:22.190 --> 00:26:24.670 is, isn't it? Yeah, this is our big day. Yes, 00:26:24.950 --> 00:26:27.950 yes, yes, yes. So, you know, thanks so much for 00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:30.109 joining me. Of course. Thanks for having me. 00:26:30.230 --> 00:26:32.990 Lovely to meet you. You too. Take care now. Ciao. 00:26:33.089 --> 00:26:33.809 Bye. Bye.