That was a piece by composer Edward Gregson called
Friday A .M. and it was played by Murray McLaughlin.
I'm Erica Worth and welcome to this Pianist Podcast.
Murray is founder of Cheatham's International
Piano Summer School, which turns 25 this year,
and I look forward to chatting with him about
this special haven for pianists. It's lovely
to have you on the Pianist Podcast today, Murray.
Very pleased to be here, Erica. Thanks for inviting
me. You're very welcome. We're here to talk about
Cheatham's International Piano Summer School,
which celebrates its 25th anniversary this summer.
Congratulations. Thank you. I just can't believe,
you know, it seems like a very quick dream in
a way. I can't believe it's 25 years. My goodness.
I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, I might be asking
an obvious question here, but what inspired you
to create such? A summer festival, summer course?
Well, I think like many people, summer festivals
and summer schools played a really important
part in my development. I mean, I was brought
up in Aberdeen and there was the International
Youth Orchestra Festival, which had the young
Simon Ruttle. playing the Stravinsky Piano Concerto
in it. And it had James Blair. We even had Aaron
Copland come into adjudicated competition and
Nigel Kennedy. It was extraordinary. There was,
I mean, Melvin Bragg did a program in Aquarius.
In fact, you know, I mean, about the whole, if
you remember that ITV in the 70s, about the whole
thing, just all these orchestras from all over
the world coming in. And that made a big impression.
But also other courses that I went as a student
to Switzerland with Norma Fisher. literature
and, you know, hearing about Dartington and real,
you know, key weeks that change lives. And they
do. People remember going on summer festivals
and having masterclasses that really are eureka
moments. So I thought, you know, we have to do
something similar. That's fantastic, Murray.
But I mean, and there was nothing, of course,
like it in the north of England. Well, no, I
mean, I arrived. I didn't think I would ever
end up in the north of England, I have to say.
I mean, in the 90s, I mean, I was I'd done about
22 recordings for Olympia. I was doing always
over 50 recitals or concertos or chamber performances
a year. I still play, of course. And it was very
much a kind of portfolio career. But I ended
up at Cheatham's because my dear teacher there
suddenly died at the age of 50. And I was asked
to come in at the 24 hours notice. pick up his
students. So that was quite a shock. But then
I stayed on. I applied for the job ahead of Cuba.
But it seemed obvious at Cheatham's that it was
the perfect place for a summer school. And David,
before he died, my teacher, had actually talked
about having one there. And so it seemed this
is the thing to do. I mean, I think you're going
to remember in the 90s as well. Certainly, in
Britain, the pianists seem to be going through
a little bit of a kind of wane in interest. I
mean, we didn't have Pianist Magazine then. You
came along later. But you, I mean, it's interesting.
I think Pianist Magazine is very relevant to
this topic because you arrive and you're so successful
because there are so many adult amateurs around.
People didn't talk about adult amateur pianists
in the 1990s. And the Chinese explosion, which
has really been a boom for piano, the Lang Lang
boom or the Yu Xia Wang or the Yundi Li, all
that hadn't happened. So the piano was in a bit
of a kind of, not a negative state, just there
wasn't so much interest. And I mean, certainly
at Cheatham's, you know, Guy Johnson, one young
musician of the year, a string player, Peter
Moore in the brass department. There was Adam
Walker, the flotter. Of course, we had lots of
amazing pianists like Cordelia Williams did really
well, many, many others. It's awful to mention
one name, but there wasn't so many pianists.
And it seemed that a summer school would not
only be an infusion of inspiration and energy
into the school, but it could actually be an
infusion of inspiration and energy and collectiveness
into the whole piano community and make us realize
that united we are stronger. And so it all came
together and gradually the adult amateur part
of it. But huge success was wonderful. The young
student part, people from Cheathams, from music
colleges, from junior conservatories came along.
People wanted to come who were at ordinary schools
and adults and enthusiasts who enjoy the piano.
We all came together. And before we knew it,
you know, after a couple of years, we had nearly
three, four hundred people. I think the largest
number we've ever had was in 2019 when we had
over 500 people. on the course no but i mean
i've been you know i've i've been like a fly
on the wall and i've seen how it is and there's
there's this incredible community spirit um is
it because the faculty and the attendees they're
there having lunch together tea together there's
this incredible spirit if you can explain that
to the listeners well i think it's very important
to unite when you love the piano, as we all do
there. We are each other's allies. We are each
other's source of strength. I mean, out there
in the big world, perhaps in certain circles,
classical piano or piano with jazz even is not
necessarily as understood or appreciated the
way perhaps it could be. So when we're all together,
why have any segregation? I mean, I mean, people,
it's very lonely playing the pianist. So wonderful
to have celebrity pianists like Peter Donohoe,
Noriko Ogawa, Joanna McGregor, eating lunch next
to adult amateurs who buy their CDs or go to
their concerts or young aspiring pianists. How
lovely to have us all together. How lovely to
share a drink after a concert or have a coffee
in the morning. It's all part and parcel of the
synergy of bringing us all together enjoy piano
and and be greater as as a as a whole rather
than the individual parts you know absolutely
i mean i think all of us pianists whether amateurs
or professionals there's that whole thing well
maybe more amateurs feel a bit intimidated they
they're scared of performing they're scared of
what their peers might think of them if they're
not as good as next to the one next to them so
there's that whole thing as well isn't it that
you must probably try to take the fear away This
is a major part of what we try to do. I mean,
in the first year, I mean, it was very much hit
or miss, but people would come in to register
and more than a few just walked into the room
and literally burst into tears. Oh, my goodness
me, what are we going to do? So, you know, I
mean, luckily, you know, I mean. I had a wonderful
couple, David and Rosie Johnson, in the early
days, who I taught the son. Andrew's now a very
wonderful concert pianist in Scotland. But David
and Rosie were tremendous at just making people
feel accepted and enjoying the atmosphere. Catherine,
of course, does that as well. I try to do that.
We have a lot of people who go out of our way
to try to make people feel welcome. We have welcome
parties for newcomers. on the course because
of course when people come year after year they
get to know each other and somebody that doesn't
know anybody can feel terrible but ultimately
it's very very sad because if you're worried
about what people think about you you haven't
got a cat's hell and chance of being comfortable
with your playing or your technique or with performance
everything goes wrong technically and musically
when you start thinking about yourself and what
we're trying to do always surely at whatever
level it is is get into a flow state and when
you forget about um What am I wearing? What do
people think of my hair? What do people think
about my octas, my sound? When you just get on
and lose yourself in the music, you become so
much greater and so much more at one with the
instrument. And that's what it's all about. Yeah,
so fascinating, isn't it? And I can understand
why people come year after year, because you
kind of need that injection. Don't you? You know,
after a year, you might go back into your old
habits and get all worried again. A bit like
performing. If you get out of practice with performing,
that's difficult, isn't it? Well, certainly in
lockdown, so many colleagues said that because
they weren't playing that when they got back
to it, it was really, really difficult. But nowadays
we're lucky. I mean, we've got, you know, connection
with people. You can meet in a summer school.
So many people become friends, have meet -up
groups. They meet and they join in chats and
they stay in touch. They play to each other.
We've had not just friendships created. Obviously,
you know, teachers that hit it off with somebody
in the course may continue with the lessons.
But we've had marriages as well. We've had in
faculty and on participants. People have met
and have ended up deciding that they've not only
met a wonderful pianist, but they've met their
life partner as well. Yeah, I mean, it is a wonderful
movie. That's nothing new. That's very, very
much part and parcel of summer schools. I mean,
I met Catherine on what we met at Wigmore Hall
when we were accompanying two saxophone players.
But then we met again in Aberystwyth and we were
both teaching. And afterwards, you know, we're
very professional in the week. But afterwards,
you know, we exchanged phone numbers and now
we're together also for 25 years. We got married
just the week before the first summer school.
My goodness, for listeners who don't know, Murray's
talking about Catherine Page, his wife, who actually
has a column inside Pianist magazine as well.
Wonderful pianist herself, isn't she? Absolutely.
Yeah. So, you know, it's been an incredible,
you know, 25 years, you know. And the adults,
the adult amateur course, does one have to be
a certain level for that? I try to get away from
the whole idea of levels. I mean, I think, you
know, I mean, you know, people are so keen to
talk about what grade are you at? I mean, I've
never really taken that seriously from, I remember
when I was nine, you know, the neighbor down
the road had a daughter and they said, oh, well,
if Murray's in grade three, well, my daughter's
actually in grade 11 or 12, which is just hilarious,
you know. But I mean, nobody knows what they're
talking about if you mention grade exams in France.
or Germany or non -British Commonwealth countries.
And I'd much rather hear an artistically, beautifully
played minuet in G than somebody struggling through
a Brahms Rhapsody with no musicianship. So, no,
we're all welcome. I mean, we have had complete
beginners. You know, one man from Iceland came
the other year and he was only about grade one.
It's awful to even talk about that, but he would
be playing pieces that would be considered ABRSM
grade one. He had a whale of a time. It depends
on your attitude. You know, I mean, we're all
on the same boat. Whether you're playing a simple
little... line or you know a surabhi's opus clavichum
ballisticum that goes on for two and a half hours
you know and it's all you know you've got to
try to communicate and try to make the music
talk to the listener and and get inside it you
know so it's all part and parcel of the same
sort of procedure at different stages in the
journey yeah i mean i've noticed too been on
the website, of course, you've got so many different
courses from healthy piano playing to improvisation,
Alexander techniques, sight reading. Can people
dip in and dip out of those courses while they're
there? Well, they have to. I mean, you officially
pay for what you do. There's a sort of core number
of hours and it's a lesson every day. It works
out to three hours, but you could pay for extra
lessons. But everybody is, this is all part and
parcel of the sitting next to celebrities at
breakfast and lunch. Everybody is allowed to
go in and watch lessons. Now that was really
misunderstood in the early years. One man rang
up and said, so does that mean that I get 30
one hour? one -to -one lessons in the course,
not realising, you know, but, you know, you can
go in and sometimes you learn much more by going
in and watching, you know, Alexander Technique
or Delco's or Kodai or watching Joanna McGregor
teaching or Peter Donohoe or whoever, you know,
going in and watching and taking notes, you can
learn so much. But that's part and parcel of
the mission to bring pianists away from their...
um self -obsession or their loneliness and bring
people together you know Really important. The
adult amateurs do have daily classes that they
do. We keep on adding and adding and adding.
You know, I mean, you know, Manchester, you know,
we can't boast, you know, the kind of luscious
countryside of Dartington. We're not kind of
pampering like a five star villa on the Maldives
or whatever, you know. So, you know, we have
to make it kind of. full of inspiration from
the music inside. That's why we only have four
days now. You know, that was enough for people.
It means that we can't quite reach the world
record of 2019 with 500 people. But, you know,
we can get well over 400 on the course. But there's
a limit with the number of days and the number
of stuff to how many we can have. But, you know,
having said that, you know, I think 400 plus
is pretty impressive. I was going to ask, are
there still... Is there still availability if
somebody wanted to? There always is, yes. I mean,
you know, I mean, I think currently we have over
300 enrolled, which is something of a record
for this time of year because it doesn't stop
until the end of June. But I mean, we can always
create new rooms. We can always, you know, we
often reinvent a geography classroom into a piano
studio or we can do Delcros in the gym or we,
you know, or Tai Chi with Philip Smith out in
the yard even. It's nice weather. So there always
seems to be more and more space. Bear in mind
that Cheatham's has more practice rooms than
any conservatoire in the UK. And we have something
like 140 pianos, plus about 40 clavinovas. It's
massive space. What didn't always used to be
like that in the old days of the Palatine building,
which is now demolished, but that was where it
all started with Peter Donohoe having lessons
and Stephen Hough and Wayne Marshall and all
the rest of them. But now we've got the state
of the art building and it seems to be able to
take more and more without any problem at all.
Well, I mean, you've got so much going on. And
of course, your faculty, so impressive, isn't
it? I mean, how do you get them all there? And
I bet they come back year after year, don't they?
They do. And it's a growing family. And I'm really,
really touched by their loyalty. And I mean,
I've just finished writing. the memoirs of the
book, of the course, and a massive appendix is
something like 90 pages of reminiscences from
the faculty, and nearly 100 of them writing.
I mean, just yesterday, Vladimir Trop, who was
the head of keyboard at the Gnessin Institute
in Russia, has written a massive essay about
his whole experiences. But I've been very touched.
Peter Donohoe wrote a beautiful foreword as well.
It is his old school, after all, Cheathams. But
everybody... has been very loyal. And, you know,
I mean, they're working very hard. They're playing
in front of audiences of complete pianists and
colleagues. Many of them say how unique it is
to be with so many professional colleagues. You
know, normally you play and you never see any
professional colleagues in a gig and go away
again. But to have an audience of almost 99 .9
% pianists, plus all the colleagues. Gives it
quite a unique edge. And of course, they're also
teaching very hard and then playing. So, I mean,
you know, I'm very touched by what they do for
us. And, you know, and quite often they do so
many extras. Impromptu classes, they'll play
in the cabaret. It's quite something to see Peter
Donohoe playing the black key study a la Myra
Hess of an orange. Noriko Agawa, year after year,
playing the violin. in her little trio called
Candies UK. Catherine Stott and Noriko playing
Ave Maria and two violins and me playing the
guitar, accompanying them, et cetera, et cetera.
We have a lot of fun. That's amazing. I mean,
you were just talking about your memoirs. Is
this the book that's coming out this summer?
That's right, called Schools In For Summer, as
opposed to Schools Out For Summer and Alice Cooper,
the 1972. But yes, I mean, you know, so it's
really outlining the whole experience. And I
tried very hard not to make it totally boring
or totally egomaniacal, you know, but to sort
of see the fun side of it. Very, very amusing
things have happened, you know, in the course
over the years, you know, so many crazy things.
I mean, I don't think we've ever had any complete
disasters. We've had many, many crises that's
been averted. But, you know, hilarious things
happening. Joseph Banevitz playing the funeral
march sonata, walking off and instead of going
out the door, walking into a broom cupboard by
mistake, having to come back again. Bernard Roberts.
forgetting his glasses and having to go on and
off stage. Crazy things, you know, but wonderful
things too, you know, fire alarms going off,
everything, you know. But, I mean, one of the
things that's remarkable is just keeping on top
of all the pianos. If you can imagine 400 people
and... All the instruments are being played six
hours a day. People practicing from six in the
morning until midnight, you know, and the piano
tuners having to look up. all that you know i
mean they are the the unsung heroes of the whole
thing and organizing all the timetables but we
have an amazing lady called leslie who has come
up with an incredible program just to otherwise
we'd never cope with everybody saying well i
want to do a bit of alexander a bit of delcos
i want peter donahoe i want two hours of joanna
mcgregor i want two hours of whoever you know
i mean absolute nightmare all the rooms been
putting it all in order so Massive organisation,
thousands and thousands of hours of lessons each
year to coordinate and make sure there are no
clashes. And you're still coming up with new
innovations. Of course, for this anniversary
celebration, you've commissioned 25 composers
associated with the course to each write a new
solo piano piece. Is that correct? I was extremely
touched. You know, they've all done this, you
know, for nothing in aid of Help Musicians UK.
And they're all people associated with the course
or with the school. From Sir Stephen Hough, Edward
Gregson, principal of the Northern, Adam Gorb,
head of composition, Joanna McGregor at Christopher
Norton. Huge range of styles. Some young people
that have just been on the course from the age
of about nine or ten, Yuanfang Yang, who's now
on the faculty. having won so many competitions
and improvising all over, as well as playing
like a saint and composing. So we've got 25...
very different pieces from all sorts of people
and i'm very very great grateful to them all
it's going to be quite a collection we're going
to have the world premiere some of the composers
will come and play their pieces and i'll play
some other members of the faculty will play some
but it'll be quite a celebration to have all
of the 25 there and that takes place in one evening
I think we're going to do it over two one -hour
slots. They're all bagatelles. They're all sort
of, you know, very much compressed into a small
space. But, yeah, I mean, it could be all played,
you know. pretty compactly in one concert. So
yeah, watch the space. That's coming out soon
too. I mean, you mentioned Edward Gregson. And
for listeners who have tuned in, Murray plays
at the beginning of this podcast a piece called
Friday AM by Edward Gregson. And it's the most
beautiful, moving piece of music, isn't it? Oh,
well, I mean, he was rather embarrassed about
it because he wrote it in 1981 after Lala's Fifth
Symphony and then didn't do anything with it
until 2020 when I recorded all his works for
Naxos. And then he said, well, maybe I should
take this out of the bottom drawer. And since
then, I mean, I played it in the summer school.
So many of the adult amateurs have played it
and enjoyed it. You know, you know, I mean, I've
even made words up as a kind of tongue in cheek,
little, little gesture of sentimental words that
we. in the end of my book, actually, because,
you know, it's very sweet. But this is a man
who's a great craftsman, a pupil of Alan Bush
at the Royal Academy. Wonderful. He's written
a big sonata, tough work, you know, atonal works.
And this is him in unabashed, you know, nostalgic
wash of sound mode, which is lovely. It really
is. It really is. And you've recorded all his
pieces on Naxos, haven't you? That's right. Yeah,
that was just before COVID. But yeah. Okay. Wonderful
music. I just wonder how on earth you find the
time to practice. And you play such difficult
repertoire as well. How do you find the time,
Murray? Do you do a half hour here, a half hour
there? Well, I mean, it's interesting. I mean,
you know, I mean, if you look historically, there
is always a period in pianists' lives when they
become hermits and vanish from society and just
practice. Liszt did it in Paris, didn't he? And
Busoni did it in the 1890s. I probably did it
after university. I retreated at 21. And, you
know, I mean, I immersed myself in not just Beethoven
sonatas and concertos, but... My teacher, Peter
Caton, it was at the beginning of the CD era,
the sort of mid -80s, but he was always being
nagged by his record label, Olympia, to record
Mioskowski sonatas. And he wanted to record Schubert
and Mozart and Beethoven. And in the end, I was
coming to lessons. And then he said, I've got
an idea. Why don't you record the Mioskowski
sonatas? So that started me off. And I did three
CDs for Olympia, got reviews, and then it went
on. It was Kabaleski, Kachaturian, Cheretnin,
Shedreen. And there was, you know, before I knew
where I was, I'd done 22 CDs for Olympia. But
that was me kind of, you know, in a kind of hermetic
cocoon up in Scotland, practicing hours and hours.
And that sort of gave me my kind of repertoire,
if you like. But of course, I mean, when you're
teaching, You know, I mean, you're also assimilating.
You're not sitting passively. And I think the
whole experience of listening, writing, practicing,
talking about music to colleagues, everything
you do helps. And I don't think we should think
that practice has to be just sitting at the piano
on your own. Of course, that's essential. but
the other things will make it faster more reliable
more fun more fulfilling more deep yes to be
an all -rounded musician absolutely um how many
pianos do you have at home then because i believe
you've got quite a few children yeah well i mean
most of the musicians That wasn't by intent.
I just thought, you know, what a wonderful way
to educate kids. I mean, it was crazy. I mean,
I think, you know, the first five years of a
summer school, four new kids in the world, you
know, and three of them have turned out to be
pianists. I mean, in fact, we've done the Beethoven
piano cycle, concerto cycle, seven times as a
family. Next weekend, we're starting in St. Andrews
with the Rachmaninoff concertos. Rose is doing
number one. I'm doing number two. And then next
March, Matthew's doing number three and Callum's
doing number four. We've just been talking about
doing all the 32 Beethoven sonatas for Real Music
Club in 2027 as a family with Catherine as well.
So there'll be there'll be five of us playing
the 32 sonatas. So it just evolved, you know,
but I never. I mean, I think music is such a
crucial thing for everybody to be immersed in.
And, you know, I'm sure there are other things
that can help, but much easier for me to try
to help my kids through music than to try to
do it through athletics or through mathematics
or languages. All these things are wonderful
too. But, you know, where else can you get, you
know, playing the piano, you know, such a kind
of multidisciplinary spirit? spiritual imaginative
intellectual um stimulus you know that that develops
you in so many ways you know but it just so happened
that they've taken to it and it's it's they haven't
stopped so hasn't one of them gone the sports
way a footballer professional footballer our
young our youngest one alec has gone and and
he's now um very much in demand as a goalkeeper
and he's just graduating from from St. John's
University in Queens in New York. He'll graduate
in May. He was actually in many ways the quickest
one to learn the piano. I think because he watched
all the others. I think he got to grade one in
six weeks. It's what you're passionate about,
isn't it? He was passionate about football. He
may well return to the piano. Who knows? It's
interesting, isn't it? So interesting. Yeah,
I just wish more people would learn an instrument.
In this country, all over the world, music is
just so important in so many ways. But we could
talk about that for ages, but we are getting
to the end, actually, of the podcast, so I want
to now ask you some very light -hearted questions.
And if you could just answer me, you know, off
the cuff, that would be great. So here's the
first one. If you could play only one composer
from now on, who would it be? I'm going to give
you a very strange answer to that. I mean, everybody
will say Bach, OK? Yeah. I would say I would
like to play the shadow of Bozzone over everybody.
Because, I mean, Ferruccio Bozzone, everything
he touched, he made his own. You could say, you
know, it's like a transcription, a commentary.
So I find that fascinating. I mean, I'm not saying
that would necessarily be, I wouldn't want Busoni
as my only composer, but I think the idea of
having a kind of particular shadow or aura or
flavor or coating, that could encompass everything.
So I'll get everything if I say Busoni. All the
arrangements, all the arrangements he did. Not
only the arrangements, it's a whole lot of levels.
If you listen to his piano playing, that is a
kind of low -level transcription, or his Dr.
Faust has got hundreds of transcriptions in it,
or his, as you say, the arrangements itself.
I mean, one of the tragedies is we don't have
his written -down arrangement of César, Franck,
Pred, Corral, and Fugue, which Neville Cardiff
said sounded like an orchestra of angelic harpists.
But everything he touched, and I think the Horowitz
was very influenced. Some people catalog Horowitz's
performance, not by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart,
but by Mozart, Horowitz, Mozart or Beethoven,
Horowitz. So I think having a kind of coating
or a flavor could be very interesting because
there's such a huge amount of range to that.
But no, I mean, the answer I'll give you officially
is Bach, of course. Well, most people say Bach
or Beethoven. Yeah, no, not Beethoven. Beethoven
I adore, but Bach has something that's so universal
and can have so many different interpretations
and possibilities. I don't think I particularly
want to hear Beethoven necessarily played in
a light way, although apparently Busoni played
the hammer clavier once as an experiment in the
First World War, according to Klemperer, pianissimo,
the fugue, like a shadow. So this is what I'm
getting at, you know. But I think Bach... gives
you the possibility, no matter what mood you're
in, there's something for everything and you
can change it so much and still have authority.
So it has to be Bach, really. Absolutely right.
I think I'd agree. One pianist, dead or alive,
you travel long and far to hear. That's too hard,
too hard. And there's so many of them. I can
give you different epochs and eras. In the modern
day, I'm looking beyond just the pianism. I think
the ideal, the philosophy before Igor Levitt,
I just think he is such a great role model. If
we go back another generation, Shura Cherkassky,
George Bullett, I adore what they do. Going a
little bit further back, Mosevich is an idol.
I adore. I have to say, you know, wouldn't it
be incredible to have heard Ferruccio Busoni
play? Myra Hess told Yonti Solomon that she heard
Busoni play the hammer clavier in London. And
she said, 50 years later, I still get a shiver
down my spine when I remember the way he played
the opening two octaves of the slow movement
of the hammer clavier. I don't remember anything
else. But she said, the power of those two notes.
She said, I've never heard anything like it.
It wasn't just sound. It was a physical transformation
in my body when I was listening. So I'd like
to have heard him. Oh, that would be amazing.
Oh, well, sadly. Not the case. OK, one person
dead or alive you'd love to play for. Oh, my
goodness. Love to play for. What a thing to think
about. My goodness. Oh, gosh. I'm not sure. I've
not really thought about that. It could be somebody
you want to learn from, somebody you'd like to
have a lesson with. I think it would be amazing
to play to Fran's list. Because the generosity
of spirit and the all -encompassing knowledge
of his era and past eras would be extraordinary.
I think the spirit there, the fact that he taught
for nothing, that he welcomed everybody, that
he embraced the spirituality after a life of
being the great. Pop star. And he was a mecca
for everyone, wasn't he? Absolutely. Extraordinary.
It has to be Liszt, you know. Okay. Do you have
any technical struggles at the piano? I struggle
with absolutely everything if my head is in the
wrong place. And we were talking earlier about
people worrying about what they think about them.
If you worry about what people think about you,
you're not able to play two notes evenly. But
if your head is in the right place, you can do
anything. I mean, I'll never forget. My father
was in South Africa and he met a man who said,
I can hypnotize myself and put a light. cigar,
a lighter cigar, put it in my hand and keep it
there and it won't cause me any pain at all.
And he did it in front of him and he did it with
no pain on his palm. Now that's a lesson for,
and he said, I don't do it often because it leaves
a mark. But if your brain is in the right place,
I honestly think you can do anything. If it's
in the wrong place, as unfortunately it often
is for most of us, everything goes wrong. Golly.
Well, next time I try double thirds. I'll think
of that. It's all about attitude. I mean, it
has to be said, you know, digging into the piano,
pressing hard, you know, sweating. That is going
to cause all kinds of issues, isn't it? And,
you know, people do not often realize, you know,
how much is about after the sound rather than
before, you know, and lifting out of the instrument.
That's interesting. Yeah, lifting out. What would
be your advice to an amateur pianist about how
to improve? I think love as much as possible
and love the moment as much as possible. Be mindful.
Don't try to look ahead. The trouble with, I
mean, it's very, very sweet and touching, but
so many adult amateurs want to run before they
can walk or they want to play the pieces with
the most number of notes in them. And, you know,
I mean, I think I would remind them that the
Goldberg Variations, which is considered a summit
of the repertoire, is actually in the Anna Magdalena
notebook. The theme is there. So, you know, is
it the hardest piece ever written or is it one
of the easiest pieces ever written? You know,
ultimately it doesn't matter. What you've got
to do is play and enjoy playing and focus and
concentrate with love on what you're playing
every note. And probably it's better to do things
well within your ability to a really high level
than struggle. Although sometimes there's a lot
of fun in just... rushing through things. But
that often tends to be the issue, you know. And
it's all very well looking at Brahms Paganini
variations, as I did with one wonderful adult
amateur on a course. But he couldn't begin to
play it, you know. And, you know, that's sad.
There's a sort of, you know, I can understand
it, the kind of fantasy, I really want to do
this. But I think it'd be much better to say,
I really want to play something beautifully.
Yeah, it is interesting, the fascination with
virtuosity, isn't it? Playing La Campanella or,
you know, such pieces, you know, Liszt, Hungarian
Rhapsodies. But then to play something slow can
be a virtuoso exercise as well. Listening, connecting,
binding, balancing, you know, enticing, speaking,
letting the music talk and sing, you know, parlando
cantabile. I think that's what needs to be emphasised.
Totally agree. Absolutely. And in fact, your
wife, Catherine, has written an article for us
about playing pianissimo. That's another technique
that's very hard, isn't it? Just being able to
play as softly as possible. Well, we live in
a very loud world, don't we? And silence is often
strange, just to have nothing happening. But
appreciating the quiet, you know, going out into
the mountains, the hills. Schnabel used to love
walking in the Alps. And Percy Granger was a
great walker in the mountains as well. Just getting
outdoors and just getting away from all the machinery
and the bustle and hustle. That might be a good
starting point for a nice little tablet. And
do you do that? Do you get out? Do you go into
the hills? When I manage to do it, I adore it.
It's something I did much more before I came
to Manchester. But that's what I crave. You know,
it's wonderful to get out into nature's realm.
You know, we have to do that. And not to, you
know, I mean, even people walking around nowadays,
they have their headphones on just to take them
off and to have a break from sound. Very difficult.
Stop your head racing. Stop the extraneous noises.
Well, I love what you said, actually. Love every
note. That's what you said earlier. That's really
sweet. But Murray, that brings us to the end
of our podcast. You've said so much interesting
stuff. It's wonderful. I'm sure listeners have
learned so much from your talk with me today.
So thank you so much for being here. Well, thank
you, Erica. And do come and join us. You know,
we can always squeeze in more and more. Let's
see if we can break the 520 barrier of 600 on
the course. I won't play as long as I don't have
to play. I'm so nervous. Oh, you're far too modest.
We'll look forward to having you in the cabaret.
I'm sure we can do a duet. I'm sure we can try
something. Or a trio with Catherine, yes. Be
wonderful. Oh, Murray, thank you so, so much
for joining me today. Pleasure. Thank you. Wishing
you well for the summer courses ahead. Thank
you. Thank you. That was the third movement from
the piano concerto in G minor by Ruth Gipps,
and it was played by Murray McLaughlin. Pianist
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