WEBVTT 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:20.859 That was a piece by composer Edward Gregson called 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:24.260 Friday A .M. and it was played by Murray McLaughlin. 00:00:24.500 --> 00:00:27.120 I'm Erica Worth and welcome to this Pianist Podcast. 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.300 Murray is founder of Cheatham's International 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:33.700 Piano Summer School, which turns 25 this year, 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.380 and I look forward to chatting with him about 00:00:36.380 --> 00:00:43.100 this special haven for pianists. It's lovely 00:00:43.100 --> 00:00:45.600 to have you on the Pianist Podcast today, Murray. 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:49.159 Very pleased to be here, Erica. Thanks for inviting 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.460 me. You're very welcome. We're here to talk about 00:00:52.460 --> 00:00:55.039 Cheatham's International Piano Summer School, 00:00:55.140 --> 00:00:58.320 which celebrates its 25th anniversary this summer. 00:00:58.539 --> 00:01:01.960 Congratulations. Thank you. I just can't believe, 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:05.659 you know, it seems like a very quick dream in 00:01:05.659 --> 00:01:08.280 a way. I can't believe it's 25 years. My goodness. 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:10.980 I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, I might be asking 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:13.739 an obvious question here, but what inspired you 00:01:13.739 --> 00:01:18.069 to create such? A summer festival, summer course? 00:01:19.030 --> 00:01:21.950 Well, I think like many people, summer festivals 00:01:21.950 --> 00:01:24.730 and summer schools played a really important 00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:28.290 part in my development. I mean, I was brought 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:30.469 up in Aberdeen and there was the International 00:01:30.469 --> 00:01:33.629 Youth Orchestra Festival, which had the young 00:01:33.629 --> 00:01:37.109 Simon Ruttle. playing the Stravinsky Piano Concerto 00:01:37.109 --> 00:01:40.510 in it. And it had James Blair. We even had Aaron 00:01:40.510 --> 00:01:43.629 Copland come into adjudicated competition and 00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:46.790 Nigel Kennedy. It was extraordinary. There was, 00:01:46.790 --> 00:01:50.909 I mean, Melvin Bragg did a program in Aquarius. 00:01:50.989 --> 00:01:53.290 In fact, you know, I mean, about the whole, if 00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:55.430 you remember that ITV in the 70s, about the whole 00:01:55.430 --> 00:01:57.489 thing, just all these orchestras from all over 00:01:57.489 --> 00:02:00.310 the world coming in. And that made a big impression. 00:02:00.390 --> 00:02:02.629 But also other courses that I went as a student 00:02:02.629 --> 00:02:04.790 to Switzerland with Norma Fisher. literature 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:07.969 and, you know, hearing about Dartington and real, 00:02:08.169 --> 00:02:11.590 you know, key weeks that change lives. And they 00:02:11.590 --> 00:02:14.409 do. People remember going on summer festivals 00:02:14.409 --> 00:02:17.169 and having masterclasses that really are eureka 00:02:17.169 --> 00:02:19.210 moments. So I thought, you know, we have to do 00:02:19.210 --> 00:02:22.250 something similar. That's fantastic, Murray. 00:02:22.389 --> 00:02:24.689 But I mean, and there was nothing, of course, 00:02:24.710 --> 00:02:28.699 like it in the north of England. Well, no, I 00:02:28.699 --> 00:02:30.979 mean, I arrived. I didn't think I would ever 00:02:30.979 --> 00:02:32.819 end up in the north of England, I have to say. 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:36.039 I mean, in the 90s, I mean, I was I'd done about 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:39.360 22 recordings for Olympia. I was doing always 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:42.620 over 50 recitals or concertos or chamber performances 00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:46.560 a year. I still play, of course. And it was very 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.219 much a kind of portfolio career. But I ended 00:02:49.219 --> 00:02:51.919 up at Cheatham's because my dear teacher there 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.919 suddenly died at the age of 50. And I was asked 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:58.000 to come in at the 24 hours notice. pick up his 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:01.580 students. So that was quite a shock. But then 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:03.539 I stayed on. I applied for the job ahead of Cuba. 00:03:03.580 --> 00:03:06.039 But it seemed obvious at Cheatham's that it was 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.020 the perfect place for a summer school. And David, 00:03:09.099 --> 00:03:11.120 before he died, my teacher, had actually talked 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.939 about having one there. And so it seemed this 00:03:14.939 --> 00:03:17.039 is the thing to do. I mean, I think you're going 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.780 to remember in the 90s as well. Certainly, in 00:03:20.780 --> 00:03:22.919 Britain, the pianists seem to be going through 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:27.000 a little bit of a kind of wane in interest. I 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:29.139 mean, we didn't have Pianist Magazine then. You 00:03:29.139 --> 00:03:31.879 came along later. But you, I mean, it's interesting. 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.300 I think Pianist Magazine is very relevant to 00:03:34.300 --> 00:03:37.879 this topic because you arrive and you're so successful 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.699 because there are so many adult amateurs around. 00:03:41.740 --> 00:03:43.879 People didn't talk about adult amateur pianists 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:48.039 in the 1990s. And the Chinese explosion, which 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:51.219 has really been a boom for piano, the Lang Lang 00:03:51.219 --> 00:03:53.840 boom or the Yu Xia Wang or the Yundi Li, all 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.439 that hadn't happened. So the piano was in a bit 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.400 of a kind of, not a negative state, just there 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.659 wasn't so much interest. And I mean, certainly 00:04:01.659 --> 00:04:03.960 at Cheatham's, you know, Guy Johnson, one young 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.719 musician of the year, a string player, Peter 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.840 Moore in the brass department. There was Adam 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.400 Walker, the flotter. Of course, we had lots of 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.280 amazing pianists like Cordelia Williams did really 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.220 well, many, many others. It's awful to mention 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:20.339 one name, but there wasn't so many pianists. 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.579 And it seemed that a summer school would not 00:04:22.579 --> 00:04:25.639 only be an infusion of inspiration and energy 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.139 into the school, but it could actually be an 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:30.680 infusion of inspiration and energy and collectiveness 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.399 into the whole piano community and make us realize 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.759 that united we are stronger. And so it all came 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.040 together and gradually the adult amateur part 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:43.779 of it. But huge success was wonderful. The young 00:04:43.779 --> 00:04:47.319 student part, people from Cheathams, from music 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.540 colleges, from junior conservatories came along. 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:53.220 People wanted to come who were at ordinary schools 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:57.319 and adults and enthusiasts who enjoy the piano. 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:59.680 We all came together. And before we knew it, 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:01.860 you know, after a couple of years, we had nearly 00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:04.279 three, four hundred people. I think the largest 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:08.040 number we've ever had was in 2019 when we had 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:13.279 over 500 people. on the course no but i mean 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:17.339 i've been you know i've i've been like a fly 00:05:17.339 --> 00:05:19.360 on the wall and i've seen how it is and there's 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.379 there's this incredible community spirit um is 00:05:23.379 --> 00:05:27.139 it because the faculty and the attendees they're 00:05:27.139 --> 00:05:30.060 there having lunch together tea together there's 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:32.639 this incredible spirit if you can explain that 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:35.759 to the listeners well i think it's very important 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:40.759 to unite when you love the piano, as we all do 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.139 there. We are each other's allies. We are each 00:05:44.139 --> 00:05:47.360 other's source of strength. I mean, out there 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.240 in the big world, perhaps in certain circles, 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:54.500 classical piano or piano with jazz even is not 00:05:54.500 --> 00:05:59.199 necessarily as understood or appreciated the 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:01.800 way perhaps it could be. So when we're all together, 00:06:02.139 --> 00:06:06.879 why have any segregation? I mean, I mean, people, 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.920 it's very lonely playing the pianist. So wonderful 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.860 to have celebrity pianists like Peter Donohoe, 00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:16.699 Noriko Ogawa, Joanna McGregor, eating lunch next 00:06:16.699 --> 00:06:19.699 to adult amateurs who buy their CDs or go to 00:06:19.699 --> 00:06:23.319 their concerts or young aspiring pianists. How 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:25.620 lovely to have us all together. How lovely to 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:29.060 share a drink after a concert or have a coffee 00:06:29.060 --> 00:06:32.819 in the morning. It's all part and parcel of the 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:36.980 synergy of bringing us all together enjoy piano 00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:41.120 and and be greater as as a as a whole rather 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:44.160 than the individual parts you know absolutely 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.199 i mean i think all of us pianists whether amateurs 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:49.459 or professionals there's that whole thing well 00:06:49.459 --> 00:06:51.959 maybe more amateurs feel a bit intimidated they 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.100 they're scared of performing they're scared of 00:06:54.100 --> 00:06:56.319 what their peers might think of them if they're 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:59.060 not as good as next to the one next to them so 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:00.899 there's that whole thing as well isn't it that 00:07:00.899 --> 00:07:04.920 you must probably try to take the fear away This 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:07.819 is a major part of what we try to do. I mean, 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.759 in the first year, I mean, it was very much hit 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:12.879 or miss, but people would come in to register 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:15.800 and more than a few just walked into the room 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.480 and literally burst into tears. Oh, my goodness 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:21.939 me, what are we going to do? So, you know, I 00:07:21.939 --> 00:07:25.829 mean, luckily, you know, I mean. I had a wonderful 00:07:25.829 --> 00:07:29.750 couple, David and Rosie Johnson, in the early 00:07:29.750 --> 00:07:32.750 days, who I taught the son. Andrew's now a very 00:07:32.750 --> 00:07:35.069 wonderful concert pianist in Scotland. But David 00:07:35.069 --> 00:07:38.490 and Rosie were tremendous at just making people 00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:42.009 feel accepted and enjoying the atmosphere. Catherine, 00:07:42.149 --> 00:07:44.389 of course, does that as well. I try to do that. 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:47.470 We have a lot of people who go out of our way 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:51.290 to try to make people feel welcome. We have welcome 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:54.300 parties for newcomers. on the course because 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:56.480 of course when people come year after year they 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:58.220 get to know each other and somebody that doesn't 00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:00.980 know anybody can feel terrible but ultimately 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.319 it's very very sad because if you're worried 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:07.180 about what people think about you you haven't 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.079 got a cat's hell and chance of being comfortable 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:14.790 with your playing or your technique or with performance 00:08:14.790 --> 00:08:18.529 everything goes wrong technically and musically 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:21.350 when you start thinking about yourself and what 00:08:21.350 --> 00:08:23.790 we're trying to do always surely at whatever 00:08:23.790 --> 00:08:27.350 level it is is get into a flow state and when 00:08:27.350 --> 00:08:30.920 you forget about um What am I wearing? What do 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.200 people think of my hair? What do people think 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:35.960 about my octas, my sound? When you just get on 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.639 and lose yourself in the music, you become so 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.919 much greater and so much more at one with the 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:44.639 instrument. And that's what it's all about. Yeah, 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:47.960 so fascinating, isn't it? And I can understand 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:49.419 why people come year after year, because you 00:08:49.419 --> 00:08:52.879 kind of need that injection. Don't you? You know, 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:54.679 after a year, you might go back into your old 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:56.539 habits and get all worried again. A bit like 00:08:56.539 --> 00:08:58.720 performing. If you get out of practice with performing, 00:08:59.139 --> 00:09:02.360 that's difficult, isn't it? Well, certainly in 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:04.919 lockdown, so many colleagues said that because 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:07.220 they weren't playing that when they got back 00:09:07.220 --> 00:09:12.470 to it, it was really, really difficult. But nowadays 00:09:12.470 --> 00:09:15.850 we're lucky. I mean, we've got, you know, connection 00:09:15.850 --> 00:09:17.990 with people. You can meet in a summer school. 00:09:18.110 --> 00:09:21.789 So many people become friends, have meet -up 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:24.990 groups. They meet and they join in chats and 00:09:24.990 --> 00:09:26.970 they stay in touch. They play to each other. 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:30.750 We've had not just friendships created. Obviously, 00:09:31.169 --> 00:09:33.389 you know, teachers that hit it off with somebody 00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:35.009 in the course may continue with the lessons. 00:09:35.129 --> 00:09:38.710 But we've had marriages as well. We've had in 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:41.820 faculty and on participants. People have met 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:44.820 and have ended up deciding that they've not only 00:09:44.820 --> 00:09:46.700 met a wonderful pianist, but they've met their 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:52.730 life partner as well. Yeah, I mean, it is a wonderful 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:54.789 movie. That's nothing new. That's very, very 00:09:54.789 --> 00:09:57.330 much part and parcel of summer schools. I mean, 00:09:57.330 --> 00:10:00.450 I met Catherine on what we met at Wigmore Hall 00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:02.309 when we were accompanying two saxophone players. 00:10:02.409 --> 00:10:05.909 But then we met again in Aberystwyth and we were 00:10:05.909 --> 00:10:08.350 both teaching. And afterwards, you know, we're 00:10:08.350 --> 00:10:10.009 very professional in the week. But afterwards, 00:10:10.149 --> 00:10:12.610 you know, we exchanged phone numbers and now 00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:15.889 we're together also for 25 years. We got married 00:10:15.889 --> 00:10:18.169 just the week before the first summer school. 00:10:21.220 --> 00:10:24.820 My goodness, for listeners who don't know, Murray's 00:10:24.820 --> 00:10:27.679 talking about Catherine Page, his wife, who actually 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.700 has a column inside Pianist magazine as well. 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.960 Wonderful pianist herself, isn't she? Absolutely. 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.720 Yeah. So, you know, it's been an incredible, 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:43.240 you know, 25 years, you know. And the adults, 00:10:43.460 --> 00:10:45.779 the adult amateur course, does one have to be 00:10:45.779 --> 00:10:49.389 a certain level for that? I try to get away from 00:10:49.389 --> 00:10:51.909 the whole idea of levels. I mean, I think, you 00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:54.230 know, I mean, you know, people are so keen to 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:57.009 talk about what grade are you at? I mean, I've 00:10:57.009 --> 00:10:59.509 never really taken that seriously from, I remember 00:10:59.509 --> 00:11:03.049 when I was nine, you know, the neighbor down 00:11:03.049 --> 00:11:06.330 the road had a daughter and they said, oh, well, 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:08.070 if Murray's in grade three, well, my daughter's 00:11:08.070 --> 00:11:12.389 actually in grade 11 or 12, which is just hilarious, 00:11:12.610 --> 00:11:14.429 you know. But I mean, nobody knows what they're 00:11:14.429 --> 00:11:17.409 talking about if you mention grade exams in France. 00:11:17.549 --> 00:11:21.029 or Germany or non -British Commonwealth countries. 00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:25.090 And I'd much rather hear an artistically, beautifully 00:11:25.090 --> 00:11:29.889 played minuet in G than somebody struggling through 00:11:29.889 --> 00:11:33.029 a Brahms Rhapsody with no musicianship. So, no, 00:11:33.110 --> 00:11:35.370 we're all welcome. I mean, we have had complete 00:11:35.370 --> 00:11:38.350 beginners. You know, one man from Iceland came 00:11:38.350 --> 00:11:41.110 the other year and he was only about grade one. 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.120 It's awful to even talk about that, but he would 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:46.779 be playing pieces that would be considered ABRSM 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:49.600 grade one. He had a whale of a time. It depends 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.039 on your attitude. You know, I mean, we're all 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:54.500 on the same boat. Whether you're playing a simple 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:58.360 little... line or you know a surabhi's opus clavichum 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.320 ballisticum that goes on for two and a half hours 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:02.440 you know and it's all you know you've got to 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:05.340 try to communicate and try to make the music 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:08.980 talk to the listener and and get inside it you 00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:11.220 know so it's all part and parcel of the same 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:13.360 sort of procedure at different stages in the 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:16.990 journey yeah i mean i've noticed too been on 00:12:16.990 --> 00:12:19.049 the website, of course, you've got so many different 00:12:19.049 --> 00:12:22.870 courses from healthy piano playing to improvisation, 00:12:22.889 --> 00:12:26.090 Alexander techniques, sight reading. Can people 00:12:26.090 --> 00:12:29.190 dip in and dip out of those courses while they're 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:32.399 there? Well, they have to. I mean, you officially 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:37.000 pay for what you do. There's a sort of core number 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.120 of hours and it's a lesson every day. It works 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:40.840 out to three hours, but you could pay for extra 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.799 lessons. But everybody is, this is all part and 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:46.559 parcel of the sitting next to celebrities at 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.799 breakfast and lunch. Everybody is allowed to 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.360 go in and watch lessons. Now that was really 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.539 misunderstood in the early years. One man rang 00:12:56.539 --> 00:12:58.940 up and said, so does that mean that I get 30 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:01.820 one hour? one -to -one lessons in the course, 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.340 not realising, you know, but, you know, you can 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:07.120 go in and sometimes you learn much more by going 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.639 in and watching, you know, Alexander Technique 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.879 or Delco's or Kodai or watching Joanna McGregor 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.840 teaching or Peter Donohoe or whoever, you know, 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:21.139 going in and watching and taking notes, you can 00:13:21.139 --> 00:13:24.159 learn so much. But that's part and parcel of 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.419 the mission to bring pianists away from their... 00:13:27.769 --> 00:13:31.129 um self -obsession or their loneliness and bring 00:13:31.129 --> 00:13:33.860 people together you know Really important. The 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:37.620 adult amateurs do have daily classes that they 00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:40.700 do. We keep on adding and adding and adding. 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.139 You know, I mean, you know, Manchester, you know, 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:46.039 we can't boast, you know, the kind of luscious 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:49.940 countryside of Dartington. We're not kind of 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:53.679 pampering like a five star villa on the Maldives 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:55.759 or whatever, you know. So, you know, we have 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:00.289 to make it kind of. full of inspiration from 00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:03.190 the music inside. That's why we only have four 00:14:03.190 --> 00:14:05.129 days now. You know, that was enough for people. 00:14:05.230 --> 00:14:07.610 It means that we can't quite reach the world 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:10.909 record of 2019 with 500 people. But, you know, 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:14.230 we can get well over 400 on the course. But there's 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:16.370 a limit with the number of days and the number 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:18.850 of stuff to how many we can have. But, you know, 00:14:18.870 --> 00:14:20.870 having said that, you know, I think 400 plus 00:14:20.870 --> 00:14:25.110 is pretty impressive. I was going to ask, are 00:14:25.110 --> 00:14:28.440 there still... Is there still availability if 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.840 somebody wanted to? There always is, yes. I mean, 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:32.720 you know, I mean, I think currently we have over 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.039 300 enrolled, which is something of a record 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.419 for this time of year because it doesn't stop 00:14:37.419 --> 00:14:40.460 until the end of June. But I mean, we can always 00:14:40.460 --> 00:14:43.120 create new rooms. We can always, you know, we 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:47.179 often reinvent a geography classroom into a piano 00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:52.399 studio or we can do Delcros in the gym or we, 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.679 you know, or Tai Chi with Philip Smith out in 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.539 the yard even. It's nice weather. So there always 00:14:58.539 --> 00:15:01.519 seems to be more and more space. Bear in mind 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.820 that Cheatham's has more practice rooms than 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:07.019 any conservatoire in the UK. And we have something 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:12.299 like 140 pianos, plus about 40 clavinovas. It's 00:15:12.299 --> 00:15:15.539 massive space. What didn't always used to be 00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.519 like that in the old days of the Palatine building, 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:20.600 which is now demolished, but that was where it 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.639 all started with Peter Donohoe having lessons 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:24.399 and Stephen Hough and Wayne Marshall and all 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.000 the rest of them. But now we've got the state 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.779 of the art building and it seems to be able to 00:15:29.779 --> 00:15:32.340 take more and more without any problem at all. 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.899 Well, I mean, you've got so much going on. And 00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:38.759 of course, your faculty, so impressive, isn't 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.200 it? I mean, how do you get them all there? And 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.220 I bet they come back year after year, don't they? 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:46.480 They do. And it's a growing family. And I'm really, 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:49.539 really touched by their loyalty. And I mean, 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:52.320 I've just finished writing. the memoirs of the 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.519 book, of the course, and a massive appendix is 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:59.740 something like 90 pages of reminiscences from 00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:02.980 the faculty, and nearly 100 of them writing. 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.059 I mean, just yesterday, Vladimir Trop, who was 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:08.720 the head of keyboard at the Gnessin Institute 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:11.320 in Russia, has written a massive essay about 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.159 his whole experiences. But I've been very touched. 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.179 Peter Donohoe wrote a beautiful foreword as well. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.039 It is his old school, after all, Cheathams. But 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:23.820 everybody... has been very loyal. And, you know, 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:26.419 I mean, they're working very hard. They're playing 00:16:26.419 --> 00:16:29.320 in front of audiences of complete pianists and 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.440 colleagues. Many of them say how unique it is 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.960 to be with so many professional colleagues. You 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.340 know, normally you play and you never see any 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:40.159 professional colleagues in a gig and go away 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.379 again. But to have an audience of almost 99 .9 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:48.220 % pianists, plus all the colleagues. Gives it 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:50.500 quite a unique edge. And of course, they're also 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:53.820 teaching very hard and then playing. So, I mean, 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.559 you know, I'm very touched by what they do for 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.679 us. And, you know, and quite often they do so 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.039 many extras. Impromptu classes, they'll play 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.579 in the cabaret. It's quite something to see Peter 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:09.240 Donohoe playing the black key study a la Myra 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:13.420 Hess of an orange. Noriko Agawa, year after year, 00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:17.759 playing the violin. in her little trio called 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.460 Candies UK. Catherine Stott and Noriko playing 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:25.220 Ave Maria and two violins and me playing the 00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:27.700 guitar, accompanying them, et cetera, et cetera. 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.539 We have a lot of fun. That's amazing. I mean, 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.160 you were just talking about your memoirs. Is 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.339 this the book that's coming out this summer? 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:38.640 That's right, called Schools In For Summer, as 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.660 opposed to Schools Out For Summer and Alice Cooper, 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.789 the 1972. But yes, I mean, you know, so it's 00:17:45.789 --> 00:17:49.609 really outlining the whole experience. And I 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:52.470 tried very hard not to make it totally boring 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:56.369 or totally egomaniacal, you know, but to sort 00:17:56.369 --> 00:18:00.329 of see the fun side of it. Very, very amusing 00:18:00.329 --> 00:18:03.009 things have happened, you know, in the course 00:18:03.009 --> 00:18:06.470 over the years, you know, so many crazy things. 00:18:06.569 --> 00:18:08.809 I mean, I don't think we've ever had any complete 00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:13.210 disasters. We've had many, many crises that's 00:18:13.210 --> 00:18:17.390 been averted. But, you know, hilarious things 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:19.809 happening. Joseph Banevitz playing the funeral 00:18:19.809 --> 00:18:23.069 march sonata, walking off and instead of going 00:18:23.069 --> 00:18:25.490 out the door, walking into a broom cupboard by 00:18:25.490 --> 00:18:28.390 mistake, having to come back again. Bernard Roberts. 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.539 forgetting his glasses and having to go on and 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:35.640 off stage. Crazy things, you know, but wonderful 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.759 things too, you know, fire alarms going off, 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.380 everything, you know. But, I mean, one of the 00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:45.480 things that's remarkable is just keeping on top 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.420 of all the pianos. If you can imagine 400 people 00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:51.009 and... All the instruments are being played six 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:53.829 hours a day. People practicing from six in the 00:18:53.829 --> 00:18:57.329 morning until midnight, you know, and the piano 00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.220 tuners having to look up. all that you know i 00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:02.799 mean they are the the unsung heroes of the whole 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.039 thing and organizing all the timetables but we 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:08.960 have an amazing lady called leslie who has come 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.660 up with an incredible program just to otherwise 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:13.519 we'd never cope with everybody saying well i 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:15.519 want to do a bit of alexander a bit of delcos 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.000 i want peter donahoe i want two hours of joanna 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.539 mcgregor i want two hours of whoever you know 00:19:20.539 --> 00:19:23.000 i mean absolute nightmare all the rooms been 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.670 putting it all in order so Massive organisation, 00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:29.569 thousands and thousands of hours of lessons each 00:19:29.569 --> 00:19:32.490 year to coordinate and make sure there are no 00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:37.069 clashes. And you're still coming up with new 00:19:37.069 --> 00:19:39.509 innovations. Of course, for this anniversary 00:19:39.509 --> 00:19:43.009 celebration, you've commissioned 25 composers 00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:45.809 associated with the course to each write a new 00:19:45.809 --> 00:19:49.869 solo piano piece. Is that correct? I was extremely 00:19:49.869 --> 00:19:52.190 touched. You know, they've all done this, you 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:54.549 know, for nothing in aid of Help Musicians UK. 00:19:55.029 --> 00:19:58.390 And they're all people associated with the course 00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:02.069 or with the school. From Sir Stephen Hough, Edward 00:20:02.069 --> 00:20:04.549 Gregson, principal of the Northern, Adam Gorb, 00:20:04.549 --> 00:20:07.269 head of composition, Joanna McGregor at Christopher 00:20:07.269 --> 00:20:11.069 Norton. Huge range of styles. Some young people 00:20:11.069 --> 00:20:13.789 that have just been on the course from the age 00:20:13.789 --> 00:20:16.910 of about nine or ten, Yuanfang Yang, who's now 00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:19.539 on the faculty. having won so many competitions 00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:22.119 and improvising all over, as well as playing 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.460 like a saint and composing. So we've got 25... 00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:30.109 very different pieces from all sorts of people 00:20:30.109 --> 00:20:32.809 and i'm very very great grateful to them all 00:20:32.809 --> 00:20:34.569 it's going to be quite a collection we're going 00:20:34.569 --> 00:20:37.130 to have the world premiere some of the composers 00:20:37.130 --> 00:20:39.690 will come and play their pieces and i'll play 00:20:39.690 --> 00:20:41.869 some other members of the faculty will play some 00:20:41.869 --> 00:20:44.529 but it'll be quite a celebration to have all 00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:47.250 of the 25 there and that takes place in one evening 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:51.299 I think we're going to do it over two one -hour 00:20:51.299 --> 00:20:53.380 slots. They're all bagatelles. They're all sort 00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:56.500 of, you know, very much compressed into a small 00:20:56.500 --> 00:21:01.700 space. But, yeah, I mean, it could be all played, 00:21:01.779 --> 00:21:04.970 you know. pretty compactly in one concert. So 00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:07.569 yeah, watch the space. That's coming out soon 00:21:07.569 --> 00:21:11.069 too. I mean, you mentioned Edward Gregson. And 00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:14.369 for listeners who have tuned in, Murray plays 00:21:14.369 --> 00:21:17.190 at the beginning of this podcast a piece called 00:21:17.190 --> 00:21:21.329 Friday AM by Edward Gregson. And it's the most 00:21:21.329 --> 00:21:26.789 beautiful, moving piece of music, isn't it? Oh, 00:21:26.809 --> 00:21:29.069 well, I mean, he was rather embarrassed about 00:21:29.069 --> 00:21:31.930 it because he wrote it in 1981 after Lala's Fifth 00:21:31.930 --> 00:21:34.410 Symphony and then didn't do anything with it 00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:37.009 until 2020 when I recorded all his works for 00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:39.230 Naxos. And then he said, well, maybe I should 00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:41.529 take this out of the bottom drawer. And since 00:21:41.529 --> 00:21:43.069 then, I mean, I played it in the summer school. 00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:45.109 So many of the adult amateurs have played it 00:21:45.109 --> 00:21:47.670 and enjoyed it. You know, you know, I mean, I've 00:21:47.670 --> 00:21:50.349 even made words up as a kind of tongue in cheek, 00:21:50.410 --> 00:21:54.990 little, little gesture of sentimental words that 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:57.660 we. in the end of my book, actually, because, 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.819 you know, it's very sweet. But this is a man 00:22:00.819 --> 00:22:03.660 who's a great craftsman, a pupil of Alan Bush 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:08.779 at the Royal Academy. Wonderful. He's written 00:22:08.779 --> 00:22:13.519 a big sonata, tough work, you know, atonal works. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:18.299 And this is him in unabashed, you know, nostalgic 00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:23.579 wash of sound mode, which is lovely. It really 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:26.880 is. It really is. And you've recorded all his 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.440 pieces on Naxos, haven't you? That's right. Yeah, 00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:34.720 that was just before COVID. But yeah. Okay. Wonderful 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.900 music. I just wonder how on earth you find the 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:43.460 time to practice. And you play such difficult 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:45.559 repertoire as well. How do you find the time, 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:47.759 Murray? Do you do a half hour here, a half hour 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.759 there? Well, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, 00:22:50.779 --> 00:22:53.680 you know, I mean, if you look historically, there 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.779 is always a period in pianists' lives when they 00:22:56.779 --> 00:23:01.220 become hermits and vanish from society and just 00:23:01.220 --> 00:23:04.740 practice. Liszt did it in Paris, didn't he? And 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:08.079 Busoni did it in the 1890s. I probably did it 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:12.180 after university. I retreated at 21. And, you 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:15.559 know, I mean, I immersed myself in not just Beethoven 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.849 sonatas and concertos, but... My teacher, Peter 00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:22.750 Caton, it was at the beginning of the CD era, 00:23:22.849 --> 00:23:25.829 the sort of mid -80s, but he was always being 00:23:25.829 --> 00:23:29.009 nagged by his record label, Olympia, to record 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:31.849 Mioskowski sonatas. And he wanted to record Schubert 00:23:31.849 --> 00:23:34.450 and Mozart and Beethoven. And in the end, I was 00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:36.250 coming to lessons. And then he said, I've got 00:23:36.250 --> 00:23:38.829 an idea. Why don't you record the Mioskowski 00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:44.359 sonatas? So that started me off. And I did three 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.579 CDs for Olympia, got reviews, and then it went 00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:50.299 on. It was Kabaleski, Kachaturian, Cheretnin, 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.420 Shedreen. And there was, you know, before I knew 00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:57.700 where I was, I'd done 22 CDs for Olympia. But 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:00.839 that was me kind of, you know, in a kind of hermetic 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.740 cocoon up in Scotland, practicing hours and hours. 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.759 And that sort of gave me my kind of repertoire, 00:24:08.779 --> 00:24:10.880 if you like. But of course, I mean, when you're 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.730 teaching, You know, I mean, you're also assimilating. 00:24:13.750 --> 00:24:16.930 You're not sitting passively. And I think the 00:24:16.930 --> 00:24:20.150 whole experience of listening, writing, practicing, 00:24:20.509 --> 00:24:23.329 talking about music to colleagues, everything 00:24:23.329 --> 00:24:26.430 you do helps. And I don't think we should think 00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:29.190 that practice has to be just sitting at the piano 00:24:29.190 --> 00:24:32.740 on your own. Of course, that's essential. but 00:24:32.740 --> 00:24:36.440 the other things will make it faster more reliable 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:40.859 more fun more fulfilling more deep yes to be 00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:44.740 an all -rounded musician absolutely um how many 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.339 pianos do you have at home then because i believe 00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:53.279 you've got quite a few children yeah well i mean 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.440 most of the musicians That wasn't by intent. 00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:58.380 I just thought, you know, what a wonderful way 00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:01.059 to educate kids. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, 00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:04.000 I think, you know, the first five years of a 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.859 summer school, four new kids in the world, you 00:25:06.859 --> 00:25:09.480 know, and three of them have turned out to be 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.819 pianists. I mean, in fact, we've done the Beethoven 00:25:12.819 --> 00:25:16.019 piano cycle, concerto cycle, seven times as a 00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:20.059 family. Next weekend, we're starting in St. Andrews 00:25:20.059 --> 00:25:23.059 with the Rachmaninoff concertos. Rose is doing 00:25:23.059 --> 00:25:25.869 number one. I'm doing number two. And then next 00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:28.470 March, Matthew's doing number three and Callum's 00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:30.529 doing number four. We've just been talking about 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:34.109 doing all the 32 Beethoven sonatas for Real Music 00:25:34.109 --> 00:25:38.170 Club in 2027 as a family with Catherine as well. 00:25:38.250 --> 00:25:41.009 So there'll be there'll be five of us playing 00:25:41.009 --> 00:25:44.690 the 32 sonatas. So it just evolved, you know, 00:25:44.690 --> 00:25:47.450 but I never. I mean, I think music is such a 00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:51.849 crucial thing for everybody to be immersed in. 00:25:51.910 --> 00:25:54.049 And, you know, I'm sure there are other things 00:25:54.049 --> 00:25:57.269 that can help, but much easier for me to try 00:25:57.269 --> 00:26:00.529 to help my kids through music than to try to 00:26:00.529 --> 00:26:04.910 do it through athletics or through mathematics 00:26:04.910 --> 00:26:07.349 or languages. All these things are wonderful 00:26:07.349 --> 00:26:10.309 too. But, you know, where else can you get, you 00:26:10.309 --> 00:26:12.210 know, playing the piano, you know, such a kind 00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:16.559 of multidisciplinary spirit? spiritual imaginative 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:21.339 intellectual um stimulus you know that that develops 00:26:21.339 --> 00:26:24.319 you in so many ways you know but it just so happened 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:26.740 that they've taken to it and it's it's they haven't 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:29.660 stopped so hasn't one of them gone the sports 00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:31.900 way a footballer professional footballer our 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.559 young our youngest one alec has gone and and 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:37.420 he's now um very much in demand as a goalkeeper 00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:42.539 and he's just graduating from from St. John's 00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:46.220 University in Queens in New York. He'll graduate 00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:51.380 in May. He was actually in many ways the quickest 00:26:51.380 --> 00:26:55.039 one to learn the piano. I think because he watched 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.940 all the others. I think he got to grade one in 00:26:57.940 --> 00:27:02.339 six weeks. It's what you're passionate about, 00:27:02.420 --> 00:27:04.980 isn't it? He was passionate about football. He 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:08.880 may well return to the piano. Who knows? It's 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.630 interesting, isn't it? So interesting. Yeah, 00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:15.329 I just wish more people would learn an instrument. 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:19.150 In this country, all over the world, music is 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:22.950 just so important in so many ways. But we could 00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:24.890 talk about that for ages, but we are getting 00:27:24.890 --> 00:27:26.789 to the end, actually, of the podcast, so I want 00:27:26.789 --> 00:27:28.829 to now ask you some very light -hearted questions. 00:27:29.750 --> 00:27:31.950 And if you could just answer me, you know, off 00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:34.130 the cuff, that would be great. So here's the 00:27:34.130 --> 00:27:37.329 first one. If you could play only one composer 00:27:37.329 --> 00:27:41.670 from now on, who would it be? I'm going to give 00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:44.269 you a very strange answer to that. I mean, everybody 00:27:44.269 --> 00:27:50.130 will say Bach, OK? Yeah. I would say I would 00:27:50.130 --> 00:27:53.890 like to play the shadow of Bozzone over everybody. 00:27:54.369 --> 00:27:57.390 Because, I mean, Ferruccio Bozzone, everything 00:27:57.390 --> 00:28:00.980 he touched, he made his own. You could say, you 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:03.359 know, it's like a transcription, a commentary. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.339 So I find that fascinating. I mean, I'm not saying 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:08.539 that would necessarily be, I wouldn't want Busoni 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:11.859 as my only composer, but I think the idea of 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:16.319 having a kind of particular shadow or aura or 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:21.640 flavor or coating, that could encompass everything. 00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:23.440 So I'll get everything if I say Busoni. All the 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.569 arrangements, all the arrangements he did. Not 00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:27.670 only the arrangements, it's a whole lot of levels. 00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:30.250 If you listen to his piano playing, that is a 00:28:30.250 --> 00:28:33.250 kind of low -level transcription, or his Dr. 00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:36.210 Faust has got hundreds of transcriptions in it, 00:28:36.289 --> 00:28:38.390 or his, as you say, the arrangements itself. 00:28:38.730 --> 00:28:40.630 I mean, one of the tragedies is we don't have 00:28:40.630 --> 00:28:43.410 his written -down arrangement of César, Franck, 00:28:43.410 --> 00:28:45.769 Pred, Corral, and Fugue, which Neville Cardiff 00:28:45.769 --> 00:28:48.490 said sounded like an orchestra of angelic harpists. 00:28:48.670 --> 00:28:52.190 But everything he touched, and I think the Horowitz 00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:57.240 was very influenced. Some people catalog Horowitz's 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.940 performance, not by Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:03.240 but by Mozart, Horowitz, Mozart or Beethoven, 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.019 Horowitz. So I think having a kind of coating 00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:09.200 or a flavor could be very interesting because 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.519 there's such a huge amount of range to that. 00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:13.700 But no, I mean, the answer I'll give you officially 00:29:13.700 --> 00:29:17.420 is Bach, of course. Well, most people say Bach 00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:20.660 or Beethoven. Yeah, no, not Beethoven. Beethoven 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:24.319 I adore, but Bach has something that's so universal 00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.400 and can have so many different interpretations 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:29.980 and possibilities. I don't think I particularly 00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:33.200 want to hear Beethoven necessarily played in 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.819 a light way, although apparently Busoni played 00:29:35.819 --> 00:29:38.200 the hammer clavier once as an experiment in the 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:40.440 First World War, according to Klemperer, pianissimo, 00:29:40.660 --> 00:29:43.579 the fugue, like a shadow. So this is what I'm 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.109 getting at, you know. But I think Bach... gives 00:29:46.109 --> 00:29:48.670 you the possibility, no matter what mood you're 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:50.910 in, there's something for everything and you 00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:53.130 can change it so much and still have authority. 00:29:53.349 --> 00:29:55.329 So it has to be Bach, really. Absolutely right. 00:29:55.529 --> 00:29:59.869 I think I'd agree. One pianist, dead or alive, 00:30:00.029 --> 00:30:03.640 you travel long and far to hear. That's too hard, 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:05.880 too hard. And there's so many of them. I can 00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:09.640 give you different epochs and eras. In the modern 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:13.720 day, I'm looking beyond just the pianism. I think 00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.000 the ideal, the philosophy before Igor Levitt, 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.660 I just think he is such a great role model. If 00:30:20.660 --> 00:30:24.200 we go back another generation, Shura Cherkassky, 00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:28.099 George Bullett, I adore what they do. Going a 00:30:28.099 --> 00:30:30.460 little bit further back, Mosevich is an idol. 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:35.700 I adore. I have to say, you know, wouldn't it 00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:37.640 be incredible to have heard Ferruccio Busoni 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.519 play? Myra Hess told Yonti Solomon that she heard 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.480 Busoni play the hammer clavier in London. And 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.759 she said, 50 years later, I still get a shiver 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.480 down my spine when I remember the way he played 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.140 the opening two octaves of the slow movement 00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:54.940 of the hammer clavier. I don't remember anything 00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:57.759 else. But she said, the power of those two notes. 00:30:57.799 --> 00:30:59.779 She said, I've never heard anything like it. 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.960 It wasn't just sound. It was a physical transformation 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:06.000 in my body when I was listening. So I'd like 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.619 to have heard him. Oh, that would be amazing. 00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:13.170 Oh, well, sadly. Not the case. OK, one person 00:31:13.170 --> 00:31:16.789 dead or alive you'd love to play for. Oh, my 00:31:16.789 --> 00:31:20.970 goodness. Love to play for. What a thing to think 00:31:20.970 --> 00:31:24.869 about. My goodness. Oh, gosh. I'm not sure. I've 00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:27.970 not really thought about that. It could be somebody 00:31:27.970 --> 00:31:30.210 you want to learn from, somebody you'd like to 00:31:30.210 --> 00:31:33.309 have a lesson with. I think it would be amazing 00:31:33.309 --> 00:31:36.500 to play to Fran's list. Because the generosity 00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:39.579 of spirit and the all -encompassing knowledge 00:31:39.579 --> 00:31:42.839 of his era and past eras would be extraordinary. 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:47.059 I think the spirit there, the fact that he taught 00:31:47.059 --> 00:31:51.019 for nothing, that he welcomed everybody, that 00:31:51.019 --> 00:31:55.599 he embraced the spirituality after a life of 00:31:55.599 --> 00:32:00.269 being the great. Pop star. And he was a mecca 00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:03.710 for everyone, wasn't he? Absolutely. Extraordinary. 00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:07.829 It has to be Liszt, you know. Okay. Do you have 00:32:07.829 --> 00:32:12.230 any technical struggles at the piano? I struggle 00:32:12.230 --> 00:32:15.349 with absolutely everything if my head is in the 00:32:15.349 --> 00:32:18.069 wrong place. And we were talking earlier about 00:32:18.069 --> 00:32:19.809 people worrying about what they think about them. 00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:22.309 If you worry about what people think about you, 00:32:22.369 --> 00:32:25.710 you're not able to play two notes evenly. But 00:32:25.710 --> 00:32:28.450 if your head is in the right place, you can do 00:32:28.450 --> 00:32:32.650 anything. I mean, I'll never forget. My father 00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:36.869 was in South Africa and he met a man who said, 00:32:36.950 --> 00:32:41.970 I can hypnotize myself and put a light. cigar, 00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:44.809 a lighter cigar, put it in my hand and keep it 00:32:44.809 --> 00:32:46.869 there and it won't cause me any pain at all. 00:32:46.950 --> 00:32:49.150 And he did it in front of him and he did it with 00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:52.869 no pain on his palm. Now that's a lesson for, 00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:54.329 and he said, I don't do it often because it leaves 00:32:54.329 --> 00:32:57.809 a mark. But if your brain is in the right place, 00:32:58.029 --> 00:33:01.589 I honestly think you can do anything. If it's 00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:04.250 in the wrong place, as unfortunately it often 00:33:04.250 --> 00:33:08.109 is for most of us, everything goes wrong. Golly. 00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:12.519 Well, next time I try double thirds. I'll think 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.440 of that. It's all about attitude. I mean, it 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:18.539 has to be said, you know, digging into the piano, 00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:22.539 pressing hard, you know, sweating. That is going 00:33:22.539 --> 00:33:25.460 to cause all kinds of issues, isn't it? And, 00:33:25.579 --> 00:33:28.880 you know, people do not often realize, you know, 00:33:28.900 --> 00:33:32.200 how much is about after the sound rather than 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.400 before, you know, and lifting out of the instrument. 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:40.089 That's interesting. Yeah, lifting out. What would 00:33:40.089 --> 00:33:42.450 be your advice to an amateur pianist about how 00:33:42.450 --> 00:33:48.250 to improve? I think love as much as possible 00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:52.029 and love the moment as much as possible. Be mindful. 00:33:52.750 --> 00:33:55.430 Don't try to look ahead. The trouble with, I 00:33:55.430 --> 00:33:57.509 mean, it's very, very sweet and touching, but 00:33:57.509 --> 00:34:02.390 so many adult amateurs want to run before they 00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:05.130 can walk or they want to play the pieces with 00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:09.500 the most number of notes in them. And, you know, 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:13.619 I mean, I think I would remind them that the 00:34:13.619 --> 00:34:16.760 Goldberg Variations, which is considered a summit 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:20.719 of the repertoire, is actually in the Anna Magdalena 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:25.179 notebook. The theme is there. So, you know, is 00:34:25.179 --> 00:34:27.420 it the hardest piece ever written or is it one 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:29.699 of the easiest pieces ever written? You know, 00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:32.539 ultimately it doesn't matter. What you've got 00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:36.519 to do is play and enjoy playing and focus and 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:38.460 concentrate with love on what you're playing 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:45.280 every note. And probably it's better to do things 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.300 well within your ability to a really high level 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:51.920 than struggle. Although sometimes there's a lot 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:54.840 of fun in just... rushing through things. But 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:58.699 that often tends to be the issue, you know. And 00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:00.780 it's all very well looking at Brahms Paganini 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:03.639 variations, as I did with one wonderful adult 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.480 amateur on a course. But he couldn't begin to 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.139 play it, you know. And, you know, that's sad. 00:35:09.380 --> 00:35:11.460 There's a sort of, you know, I can understand 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:13.539 it, the kind of fantasy, I really want to do 00:35:13.539 --> 00:35:15.760 this. But I think it'd be much better to say, 00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:18.000 I really want to play something beautifully. 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.920 Yeah, it is interesting, the fascination with 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.039 virtuosity, isn't it? Playing La Campanella or, 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.860 you know, such pieces, you know, Liszt, Hungarian 00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:32.699 Rhapsodies. But then to play something slow can 00:35:32.699 --> 00:35:36.019 be a virtuoso exercise as well. Listening, connecting, 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.679 binding, balancing, you know, enticing, speaking, 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:44.159 letting the music talk and sing, you know, parlando 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:48.079 cantabile. I think that's what needs to be emphasised. 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:51.059 Totally agree. Absolutely. And in fact, your 00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:53.619 wife, Catherine, has written an article for us 00:35:53.619 --> 00:35:57.260 about playing pianissimo. That's another technique 00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:00.260 that's very hard, isn't it? Just being able to 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:03.090 play as softly as possible. Well, we live in 00:36:03.090 --> 00:36:06.230 a very loud world, don't we? And silence is often 00:36:06.230 --> 00:36:10.389 strange, just to have nothing happening. But 00:36:10.389 --> 00:36:14.269 appreciating the quiet, you know, going out into 00:36:14.269 --> 00:36:16.670 the mountains, the hills. Schnabel used to love 00:36:16.670 --> 00:36:20.269 walking in the Alps. And Percy Granger was a 00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:22.650 great walker in the mountains as well. Just getting 00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:25.849 outdoors and just getting away from all the machinery 00:36:25.849 --> 00:36:29.369 and the bustle and hustle. That might be a good 00:36:29.369 --> 00:36:33.170 starting point for a nice little tablet. And 00:36:33.170 --> 00:36:35.269 do you do that? Do you get out? Do you go into 00:36:35.269 --> 00:36:39.010 the hills? When I manage to do it, I adore it. 00:36:39.110 --> 00:36:40.670 It's something I did much more before I came 00:36:40.670 --> 00:36:44.409 to Manchester. But that's what I crave. You know, 00:36:44.449 --> 00:36:46.690 it's wonderful to get out into nature's realm. 00:36:46.849 --> 00:36:49.090 You know, we have to do that. And not to, you 00:36:49.090 --> 00:36:50.949 know, I mean, even people walking around nowadays, 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:53.530 they have their headphones on just to take them 00:36:53.530 --> 00:36:59.360 off and to have a break from sound. Very difficult. 00:36:59.460 --> 00:37:02.960 Stop your head racing. Stop the extraneous noises. 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.960 Well, I love what you said, actually. Love every 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.780 note. That's what you said earlier. That's really 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:12.460 sweet. But Murray, that brings us to the end 00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:16.420 of our podcast. You've said so much interesting 00:37:16.420 --> 00:37:18.320 stuff. It's wonderful. I'm sure listeners have 00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:21.780 learned so much from your talk with me today. 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.389 So thank you so much for being here. Well, thank 00:37:25.389 --> 00:37:27.809 you, Erica. And do come and join us. You know, 00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:29.849 we can always squeeze in more and more. Let's 00:37:29.849 --> 00:37:34.309 see if we can break the 520 barrier of 600 on 00:37:34.309 --> 00:37:37.010 the course. I won't play as long as I don't have 00:37:37.010 --> 00:37:39.829 to play. I'm so nervous. Oh, you're far too modest. 00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:41.750 We'll look forward to having you in the cabaret. 00:37:41.789 --> 00:37:43.730 I'm sure we can do a duet. I'm sure we can try 00:37:43.730 --> 00:37:46.829 something. Or a trio with Catherine, yes. Be 00:37:46.829 --> 00:37:49.489 wonderful. Oh, Murray, thank you so, so much 00:37:49.489 --> 00:37:53.280 for joining me today. Pleasure. Thank you. Wishing 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.780 you well for the summer courses ahead. Thank 00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:30.440 you. Thank you. That was the third movement from 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.519 the piano concerto in G minor by Ruth Gipps, 00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:36.940 and it was played by Murray McLaughlin. Pianist 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:39.099 podcasts are free, and a really good way to support 00:38:39.099 --> 00:38:41.920 what we do is by subscribing to Pianist. 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