That was Grieg's Norwegian Dance, Op. 35 No.
2, and it was performed by Ivana Gavrik. I'm
Erica Worth and welcome to this Pianist Podcast.
Today I am speaking to Ivana about her life in
music with a particular emphasis on her upcoming
album, Throwback to Dance. Ivana, it's lovely
to have you on the Pianist Podcast today. Hello.
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to
meet you. Oh, you're welcome. Anyway, to start
out with, we're here to talk about your new album,
which is called Throwback to Dance. That's quite
an intriguing title. And maybe you could tell
us about this. Yes, well, I've been championing
the works of Grieg for nearly two decades now.
And about five, six years ago, I came across
a description of Ravel and Grieg meeting in Paris
in 1894, where Ravel played one of Grieg's Norwegian
dances to him. And Grieg was sort of stumping
around saying, no, no, no, young man, it doesn't
go like that. It's a peasant dance. It needs
to be much more rustic. And this... endearing
image just really stuck in my head and I thought
I had to do something with the two composers
because Ravel was very enamoured by Grieg's music.
He thought that after Debussy he was the most
influential composer on both Ravel and Ravel's
peers so I thought not many people know about
this connection and I should look into it further.
You're absolutely right I would never. No. I
would never put Grieg and Ravel together. Obviously,
their music is very different. So the album is
about Grieg's influence on Ravel? Well, it's
really, it's about how composers take dance forms
from the past, so Baroque dances mainly, and
use them to, in this instance, to create a new
direction, new paths, basically trying to avoid
Germanic romanticism and the Germanic canon.
So Ravel was very keen to do that and create
a French sound or his own sound. And Grieg was
a composer that paved a way for this. They really
loved the way that Grieg encapsulated Norwegian
nature in his music and also how he used dance
forms. And he was just different from the rest
of composers in that era. And so he sort of paved
the way and Ravel, of course, took it. Much further
than that. But he was an interesting composer
to him. And actually, Ravel even wrote a theme
and variations on a theme by Grieg. But alas,
it's only in sketch form. I was so disappointed
because I was really hoping to get my hands onto
this piece. But yes, he was so important that
he even, I mean, in his youth, obviously, but
he even thought to write something based on Grieg.
So there's definitely a link there. That's interesting.
And of course, you start out. the album with
grieg's holberg suite which of course looks back
to dance doesn't it's very neoclassical very
neoclassical i mean i think we always think of
strominski as being the this the the person who
invented as it were neoclassicism but actually
it's it comes here much earlier um in 1884 and
i think there is a similarity between um the
holberg suite and le tombo de cupa in concept
because the Holberg Suite was all about celebrating
Nordic culture. Obviously Holberg, but everything
Nordic and Le Temple de Couperin started off
its life as a Suite Française. which he then
changed the title after the First World War and
everything that happened and his whole life changed,
obviously. But initially, the idea was to celebrate
French music, starting from Coupin and ending
with Saint -Saëns in the Toccata. So the sort
of nationalistic aspect is shared, even though
obviously different countries. Gosh, that's amazing,
isn't it? Yeah, it's really fun. I'm always fascinated
by that. have people that you really don't put
together actually have something in common and
and also they were both very very petite men
and so this uh image of the two of them dancing
around in an apartment in Montmartre is just
lovely absolutely true I've been to Bergen I've
seen that statue of Greek have you been there
yes yes yes I've played I even played on his
Steinway in his in his house I was allowed to
practice there quite late at night and You know,
I'm not really, I don't believe in ghosts, but
there was a feeling. And what a remarkable position
that house is. I know, it's just glorious. And
then Grieg's music just makes sense when you
visit Norway. And one feels so small in nature
there. Yeah, the fjords and the... His expanse
is awesome in the real sense of the word. And
yes, I think he really captures that sense of
space and loneliness often in his music. Yes,
you're right. I think every lover of Grieg's
piano music should go to see his home, don't
you think? Yes, and the little hut. I've also
recently been to Ravel's house just outside Paris.
Have you been? No. It's... It's absolutely exquisite.
Of course it is because it's Ravel. But it's
like one of his pieces because he designed the
wallpaper. He designed everything, every detail.
And it's really quirky and fun. And it's fascinating.
He moved there just after he finished Le Temple
de Coupin. But for example, he was nocturnal
and he used to write at the piano during the
night. And that's the darkest room of the house.
But he was an insomniac and his bedroom is bright
yellow. Funny in African sleep. Oh, how interesting.
Whereabouts is it outside of Paris? Oh, I've
forgotten the name. It's about 40 kilometres
on route to Versailles. How wonderful. In the
middle of nowhere. Doesn't he have a house? Wasn't
there a house in Saint -Jean -de -Luz as well?
Well, he moved around quite a lot, but this is...
the house that he bought and he really decorated
and the gardens are a beautiful sort of Japanese
trees and I mean everything is very specific
as it would be and it's a museum isn't it it's
a museum that you can visit at weekends I mean
it's very small but every corner is used and
beautiful and funny I mean that's what's really
intriguing he was just very funny wow well they
are both quite remarkable composers aren't they
And so I'm looking at the other composers on
your album. And you've got such an interesting
mix of composers, because then we go to another
French composer, but quite unknown, Chaminade.
Yes. How many pieces by her? Two? Two pieces.
And actually, her Autrefois was one of the pieces
that made me want to record this album. It sort
of seemed to have come together because it also
looks back at a... time gone past um and I remember
hearing this for the first time and not really
knowing who it was by was it Scarlatti was it
I don't know I just couldn't place it and I found
it really mesmerizing and I couldn't stop practicing
it so I thought I have to look into her a bit
more and um she has some lovely sort of salon
pieces this is also really yes really fun uh
audiences always like it in concert and um It's
just amazing how composers who were relatively
well known in their own lifetime can then just
disappear. She's had a bit of a revival, I guess.
Yes, exactly. But only very specific pieces.
She had a very long life and so she wrote a lot.
I think flautists know her very well because
of the flute concerto. But yeah, no, fascinating
composer. It's just been really fun to discover.
Yeah, she is amazing. We've had a lot of her
pieces in the magazine because they're so pleasing.
They're romantic and they're light and they're
flowing. Exactly. No, they're really fun. You
can build really interesting programmes with
them. So, no, that's been great. Absolutely.
She was around, of course, during Ravel's life.
So they were all overlapped up to a point. Ah,
did they know each other? I don't know. Actually,
I don't know if that's something to look into.
But the other composer, Dora Piacevic, is somebody
that I knew of when I was growing up in Sarajevo
by name. I'm not even sure that I knew it was
a woman. I knew of a Piacevic composer, which
is interesting because actually when she had
her symphony premiered in Vienna, I think the
audience also didn't know it was a woman because
in the program it stated D. Piacevic. And so
they were all... aghast when a woman got up to
take her applause at the end. You just couldn't
get hold of the music when I was a child. And
in the last sort of 10, 15 years, the Croatian
Music Institute has really been putting together
all the additions and have done a wonderful job.
You can get the whole oeuvre now. And I mean,
what a composer. She's a bit like Janáček. When
I came across Janáček's music, it really just
grabbed me. I just wanted to play his music.
And I've had a very similar reaction to her.
I guess, like Janáček, she has an immediacy to
her. To her sound, to her language. She really...
wears her heart on her sleeve. And I think early
on, she was very much influenced by Greek. Like
she wrote, I think, a couple of papillons, which
I'm sure are inspired by Greece, butterfly. And
later, I mean, she had, sadly, she died aged
37. So she had a very short life. But in that
time, she changed so much in her style. And,
you know, some of her pieces sound like Prokofiev,
and they're always... very much like her but
she has a really interesting harmonic language
and always takes you on a journey it sort of
feels like she takes the listener by the hand
and and absolutely tells a story even whether
it's a short piece or a long piece it's um yes
absolutely I mean, the piece that you have on
the album, it's really, it's fantastic. And it's
lovely. We actually featured it inside Pianist
Magazine two years ago. Yes, they told me about
this. How did you come to discover it? I have
to be honest with you. I heard it on Radio 3.
I listened to Radio 3 in the background most
of the time and it stopped me in my tracks because
it was, it's breathtakingly beautiful. Everybody
out there, get to the piano and learn this piece.
Yes, absolutely. Don't you agree? i really do
agree um and again it's one of the cases somebody
was that was so well regarded in her time even
schoenberg thought she was great but then he
remembered she was a woman and we imagine composed
but um she she had pieces done in vienna in dresden
in london even and and then just as she died
it just all got forgotten it's just extraordinary
her piano concerto um she wrote a piano concerto
in a concert I mean it's sort of like Rachmaninov,
it's really melodic and really feisty writing,
confident writing and what I noticed with, I'm
going to be performing a lot of her music in
the coming season and she and Ravel were both
paramedics during the first world war. which
is quite unusual for a countess. She really detested
her class and thought them lazy. And this experience
profoundly changed her, of course. But Ravel,
I think, became simpler after the First World
War, whereas I think she became much more feisty,
confident in her language. So I'm playing one
of the sonatas, which is... her last final piece,
Opus 57, and it's just extraordinary. It's three
composed and very different from, I know, Remembrance,
but fascinating. How interesting. You can't stop
practising it. Wow. And if you could, I mean,
you say you're playing a lot of her repertoire.
That, to me, sounds quite challenging, the sonata,
technically. It is. It is very challenging, technically.
harmonically she has her own very rich harmonic
language which is quite hard to learn so it took
me a very long time to memorize and she takes
you on these you know the transitions are unexpected
and that takes quite a while to master how to
get from A to B both in tempo and in breathing
and phrasing but But it's very satisfying. It's
a good workout. Wow. Are there any other pieces
you would say by her that are easier to handle,
technically, let's say, for the more intermediate
level? Yes, absolutely. So the Blumenleben, The
Life of Flowers, I would really recommend, especially
the rose. It's so sensuous and wonderful. I think
that's sort of maybe grade seven. each level
some of them are easier um i think there are
eight in total and they're really wonderful uh
wonderful pieces and i'm sure again slightly
influenced by the lyric pieces because there's
something shared in them also the two nocturnes
opus 50 they're quite impressionistic um yes
again very beautiful pieces that are definitely
more manageable and and shorter um okay great
that's Wonderful to hear. So really, when you're
looking at, I haven't really touched on Cheryl
Francis -Hode yet and her dance suite, which
appears on the album. That's right. Could you
tell us a little bit about her? Yes. Well, Cheryl
has been a composer that I've been working with
for since 2012, I think. But we were friends
at Cambridge and I love her music. And if there
is a chance of playing her music, I'm always
very happy to do so. And just by pure coincidence,
she happened to have written this dance suite
when I was putting together a dance -inspired
album, so I thought I had to include this. And
it's nice to hear how composers who are living
today also react to these old dance forms and
how they take it forward and what they come up
with. So I think it just fits quite nicely and
it's a bit of a... different palette to all the
other composers. And it's nice to have a predominantly
female album, actually. So three women and two
men. Did she sit down with you and work on the
piece with you? Not this one, no. She just sent
me the score and I liked it. But when she's written
pieces for me before, I mean, I trust her so
much and it's, you know, it's not... I'm not
a composer. I can't tell her what to do. So I'm
very happy for her to just write me something,
which is also a little bit nerve -wracking because
you never know what you're going to get, but
also fun and, you know, what an honour. So we've
never really had an exchange. I might give her
a concept or an idea, but that's as far as it
goes. I just know that she will come up with
something brilliant every time. So this was written
for you, the dance suite? No, no, no. So it was
done in pristine. It was just available at the
right time. So I'm happy to include it too. And
it's a world premiere recording. It is a world
premiere recording, indeed. Yes. And the album,
when is the album out or it's already out? It's
not. It's out in just under a month on the 21st
of November. Oh, 21st of November. There have
been singles released every two weeks leading
up to it. It's very nice to have an album. It's
been quite a while since my last one in 2019.
Oh, well, the programming is beautiful. I think
listeners will really enjoy this. So what I'm
going to do now is just ask you a little bit
about your background, actually, because, you
know, some pianists do the competition route.
you know when first of all there's been so many
competitions this year yes but you went to you
say you studied at Cambridge yes I well I started
music school when I was six before I started
normal school and I grew up in Sarajevo and we
start normal school if you can call it normal
school a lot later so at the age of seven so
my mum being a pianist I think just wanted to
start me off so that's and we have we had lessons
twice a week and twice a week solfege so it was
quite intense and when i came to the uk age 12
i continued at junior guildhall so i felt you
know especially given what had happened from
where i was from i felt it would be wise to to
have a a degree, and also I wanted to meet people
who are not musicians. I thought that was, you
know, as a pianist, you're in a room on your
own for a long time. And I'm very sociable and
I like to hear about other subjects and hear
about, meet people. So I thought it was just
a, what a great opportunity if you manage to
get a place at Cambridge. So I did that, but
I didn't realise at the time just how much performing
there would be at Cambridge because not part
of the course but people would just get together
and you know put on opera put on a concerto and
be proactive about that and I think I learned
so much from that and that's been a great asset
to me and to have those networks and people that
I met who are actually still performing almost
even more from Cambridge than I from my colleagues
at the Royal College of Music where I then did
my masters. Okay, okay. You don't imagine that
you go to Cambridge and you're performing a lot.
You imagine it's going to be so academic, don't
you? Well, it is, it is. I had to write a lot
of fugues. Yeah. Which was painful. It doesn't
come naturally, fugues and analysing Gregorian
chants and things like that, which I think I
was just a bit... It would be nice to do now,
I think, now that I'm a bit older and would enjoy
that more, but at the time it... it was just
something i did but uh and write many essays
but actually one of the courses um by marina
frollo walker was really something that grabbed
me and uh sandy goa used to teach um ballet bruce
and that that that period i mean this is sort
of the same period but if i could go back in
time and be born at a different time it would
definitely be that so so that that was very inspiring
um and you know it just teaches you a lot we
we did learn a lot or we learned how little we
knew at least while on that course that's so
interesting yeah and you then you went to the
Royal College of Music yeah so you decided to
go back to a real music I decided to to see um
whether I could make a career out of playing
the piano and yeah and you have you have um I
believe you also um you do work for Music Action
International I don't work for them but I'm uh
what they call an ambassador um i well given
my background i i think it's really important
for refugees um to give them a sense of pride
or purpose uh when they come to this country
and a lot of um refugees that music action international
works with have been through horrendous experiences
and and through music whether they had a music
background or not they get put in bands and They
get to make music together and also maybe perform
together, make CDs together, perhaps even eventually
make a living out of this. And it's just so powerful
and so important that I think whenever I get
a chance to talk about their work or publicise
them, I try to do that. Oh, that's absolutely
lovely. OK, so I think now, away from the heavy
staff, I'm going to ask you. some rather light
-hearted questions and um if you could just answer
them really off the cuff okay um and so here
we go um the first question if you could play
only one composer from now on who would it be
why because it has everything um it's mentally,
emotionally, physically challenging and rewarding.
Yeah. I think I can understand that. Okay. End
of that. Definitely Bach. Yes. Okay. Maybe Schubert
as well. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Two very, yeah.
Fit perfectly there. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. One
pianist, dead or alive, you'd travel long. and
far to hear? So can I have a dead and an alive
one? Why not? I think Martha Argerich, who's
just extraordinary. I mean, how is that possible?
And Liszt, I'd love to hear Liszt. I would really
love, I mean, it must have been amazing. I hope
it was amazing. I don't know. I mean, I just
would want to be at one of those concerts. Two
very, very good answers, I have to say. Martha
Rogwich was playing last night at the Wigmore
Hall. I know, I was so sad I couldn't get tickets.
I was there 10 years ago for the 75th birthday
and they play the symphonic dancers and that
was just extraordinary. And I've heard her since
in Switzerland and I mean, she just gets better
and better. Oh my goodness, yeah. She is somebody
you would travel long and far to hear, isn't
she? Absolutely. Absolutely. Amazing. She looked
incredibly fresh and played incredibly freshly
last night. It was incredible. You know. How?
I know, how? Anyway. One person dead or alive
you'd love to play for? So this is tricky. Mozart?
No. What do you think he'd say? I don't know,
but I would quite like to meet him. So I think
that's an excuse to meet him. He'd be your teacher
of choice. Yes, or somebody sort of a little
bit unusual like that personality. Ravel? I mean,
yes, absolutely, Ravel. Or Beethoven. Not sure
I would want to receive their feedback, but I
would love to meet them. They might be very critical.
Yes, I think that goes without saying. Okay.
Do you yourself have any technical struggles
at the keyboard? I mean, who doesn't? I mean,
every piece brings its own technical struggles,
I think. And the key is to think musically through
them. I do suffer sometimes from sweaty hands,
which... In concert, which is annoying. And sometimes
you have to make up fingering on the spot. It
keeps you on your toes. But I try to not think
about it. Some people who are in a similar position
do go through extreme treatments. But then I
think you think about it more and then it just
gets worse. Oh, how interesting. making up new
fingerings on the spot my goodness that's that's
like a nightmare well it can be fun it can be
fun too but i've discovered once i was um quite
jet lagged after flying to america to play and
i had very dry hands really really dry and that
was even worse because i couldn't grip on the
keys so i'm just happy with what i have there
do you wear do you wear do you do any warm -uppy
things to help your hands like Well, you wouldn't
need fingerless gloves, would you? But I mean,
some people... You mean in general or just because
of... Yeah, maybe to help you before a performance.
Just sort of finger warm -ups, yeah, or chords.
Depends on what I'm playing. It's sort of different
every day. I don't have a very set routine. Do
you not? I was actually, just now that we're
talking, do you do your scales? Do you do warm
-ups like that? Yeah, I love scales. or some
studies uh Chopin studies or even Czerny studies
um but I it's a very slow practice of the pieces
I'm doing but more what I'm more um set on on
the concert day is sort of when I eat and when
I sleep and what I eat it's more things like
that rather than how I play interesting Do you
eat light before you play? Yes. You can't have
a heavy meal. I used to eat heavy. I used to
eat a lot. But as I've got older, you know, light
and fish rather than, and never pasta. I think
calves. Yes. No. Yes. Bananas, grapes and fish.
Okay. But not together. Bananas, grapes and fish.
No, no. That's so interesting. Okay, what would
be your advice to an amateur pianist about how
to improve? Well, apart from practice, obviously,
live. Go and listen to concerts, go to art exhibitions,
read, listen to other people, not on your instruments.
Go to the opera, go to orchestral concerts, go
and hear singers. I think especially singers
for pianists. Definitely. Definitely. We all
want to have that cantabile, don't we? Yeah,
absolutely. And phrasing. It's so easy to forget
to breathe when you're playing. I mean, not literally,
but, you know, musically. And because we don't
need to change our bow or we don't need to take
a breath. And the quality, the technical proficiency
nowadays is so high. But sometimes at the expense
of... phrasing and expression absolutely um if
you weren't a pianist what would you be either
a doctor or an architect okay why why a doctor
because it's something meaningful and being with
people and helping people um i was very close
to studying medicine but decided not to And architect
because it's, again, a little bit like creating
your interpretation, sort of building structures,
I think. That's my concept of what an architect
does. I don't know. Creating structures and patterns
and just being creative. Absolutely. Very, very
interesting. Oh, final question. One composer
you're not quite ready to tackle. Brahms. Why
is that? I don't know. I mean, some pieces, maybe.
I don't know. I just think other people can say
it better than I can. I used to play a lot of
his music when I was at the college. Yeah, I
don't know. That's interesting. Yeah, I myself,
I'm not... I prefer not to play Brahms. But what
about Schumann? I played a lot of Kreisleriana.
I love his concerto. I mean, if I could just,
that's actually one of those pieces that I'm
so happy to practice. My husband always says
that you're always in a good mood when you're
practicing the concerto. And it's true. I just
adore that. But some Schumann, not all Schumann.
Have you played his Fantasy? No. I've taught
it, but I haven't played it. Okay. Yeah, Schubert.
I mean, you know, my taste has changed so much
since I've been a student, so who knows? Who
knows? Yeah, there's a lot of composers out there,
aren't there? Yes, and you sort of grow and you
mature, and there was a time when I didn't understand
Schubert, and now I don't understand how I didn't
understand Schubert, so, you know. Of course,
of course. So one grows and matures. Yes. And
that's what's really interesting and fun. You're
just drawn to different things and different
tastes. Absolutely. And before we sign off, I
know you're very busy at the moment, but I think
you're giving a recital. You'll be giving a recital
a week after this podcast comes out. Yes. In
London. In London. in fact two, I will be launching
the album on Monday the 24th of November at ZL's
which is a lovely jazz venue, it's actually called
the Crazy Cox, where I filmed the video of Chaminade
Autrefois so if you go online you can see what
it looks like but it's really because I thought
it might be fun given the title of the album
and the repertoire. to play somewhere that's
a little bit less formal. And Ravel spent many
nights going to listen to jazz musicians and
watch people dance in Paris. And so it's really,
I think he would approve of the Parisian decor
that's Adele's 1920s decor and also the cocktails.
Oh, yes. And you're playing there twice? I'm
playing at seven o 'clock. It's just over now.
And then at 9 .15, just over now. Fantastic.
It's most of the album, so it'll be quite fun.
Fantastic. OK. And for the rest of the year,
busy, busy? Yes, mainly learning lots of new
repertoire. I have a new duo with Tim Horton
on two pianos. So we're doing the symphonic dances
early in next year. And learning Rhapsody in
Blue as well, which is new to me. And lots of
Mendelssohn. So watch this space. Yes, I know.
Oh, that's wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Well,
listen, I think we've come to an end. That was
just such a lovely conversation. Thank you. I
really enjoyed that. I forgot that it was an
interview. No, that was lovely. And we've never
really had a chance to chat. So it was a pleasure.
And I hope everybody else has enjoyed it. I'll
be there on the 21st of November for sure. Thank
you. 24th. Sorry? 24th of November. Oh, 24. The
album comes out on the 21st, but the launch concerts
are on the 24th. Oh, okay. I've made a note.
Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much, Ivana,
for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's
been really fun. Thank you. You're welcome. That
was the Toccata from Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin,
and it was performed by Ivana Gavrik. Pianist
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