WEBVTT 00:00:28.780 --> 00:00:32.520 Maybe I was always a... destined to leave the 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:37.820 church. I always had a hard time accepting even 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:40.939 the most basic of Christian doctrines. Some of 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:43.719 the most vivid memories I have of my childhood 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:48.039 involve intense, not always polite discussions 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:52.979 with my dad on confusing claims of Jesus' divine 00:00:52.979 --> 00:00:56.619 nature or the logical incoherence of the Trinity 00:00:56.619 --> 00:00:59.759 and the questionable authority of the Bible. 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.859 When did I have these discussions? I mean, it 00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:10.900 started probably in late elementary school. And 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:13.920 my arguments only became more refined against 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:17.560 Christian doctrine since then. I don't think 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:20.700 it helped that I fell in love with philosophy. 00:01:20.859 --> 00:01:23.540 If anything, it just equipped me with insight 00:01:23.540 --> 00:01:28.280 into the depths of the problems. with arguing 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.319 both for and against God's existence, let alone 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:34.819 anything else that the church wanted to claim 00:01:34.819 --> 00:01:39.640 about the Bible's authority or Jesus' divinity 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:44.319 or just anything else. But to focus on these 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.620 arguments really missed the real reason I left 00:01:47.620 --> 00:01:52.099 the church and why I shed any desire to remain 00:01:52.099 --> 00:01:55.969 in. any Christian community or to call myself 00:01:55.969 --> 00:01:59.269 a Christian. See, to better understand my journey, 00:01:59.370 --> 00:02:01.549 we need to travel all the way back to the day 00:02:01.549 --> 00:02:05.569 I was born. Because, you know, as a pastor's 00:02:05.569 --> 00:02:09.210 kid, I grew up in the church. I didn't just go 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:13.849 to church on Sunday for a few hours. No, my whole 00:02:13.849 --> 00:02:16.789 life revolved around the church and the church 00:02:16.789 --> 00:02:19.430 community. I was at church on Wednesday evenings 00:02:19.430 --> 00:02:25.189 for midweek service. I was at church most Saturdays 00:02:25.189 --> 00:02:28.449 where, you know, if there wasn't some sort of 00:02:28.449 --> 00:02:31.750 church event, I was then accompanying my dad 00:02:31.750 --> 00:02:34.889 for preparations that he was making for the next 00:02:34.889 --> 00:02:40.389 day. You know, when I was old enough, my parents 00:02:40.389 --> 00:02:43.650 would drag me to morning prayers like every weekday. 00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:47.819 It's like this weird Korean. church thing that 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:51.039 to go at like five in the morning to church and 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:56.560 pray and have a mini service right um you know 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.719 my dad would hold like family you know family 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.639 what is it bible study on the days and we didn't 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:06.860 have any other thing that was going on at church 00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:10.699 i mean eventually they just kind of gave up on 00:03:10.699 --> 00:03:12.259 some of these things but mostly it was because 00:03:12.259 --> 00:03:14.460 i just kept on insisting i didn't want to do 00:03:14.460 --> 00:03:18.280 it Mainly because the time commitment was kind 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:23.520 of getting ridiculous, I thought. I've also mentioned 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:26.120 that I would spend time with other pastors' families 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.080 regularly. I mean, since I didn't really have 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.400 many relatives in the U .S., these pastors, my 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.139 dad's friends, really, and their kids, they became 00:03:35.139 --> 00:03:38.479 my relatives. We just knew each other. Even if 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.199 I didn't get along or weren't friends with the 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.250 other kids. We all heard stories about each other 00:03:44.250 --> 00:03:50.449 through our parents, right? Man, the summers 00:03:50.449 --> 00:03:55.509 were taken up by Bible study, VBS, various other 00:03:55.509 --> 00:03:58.490 things that were going on through the church. 00:03:58.569 --> 00:04:00.949 My dad would also regularly drag me to these 00:04:00.949 --> 00:04:03.789 pastor's meetings because I guess denominations 00:04:03.789 --> 00:04:06.370 have their own little gatherings where they talk 00:04:06.370 --> 00:04:10.330 about church stuff, I guess. And that happened 00:04:10.330 --> 00:04:12.990 every few weeks. I'm pretty sure he dragged me 00:04:12.990 --> 00:04:14.370 there just because he didn't want to leave me 00:04:14.370 --> 00:04:19.709 at home by myself. But, you know, I would just 00:04:19.709 --> 00:04:23.750 attend so many church -centered things, right? 00:04:23.850 --> 00:04:27.050 So my life, my entire family's life, really, 00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:30.149 was centered on the church. And though I didn't 00:04:30.149 --> 00:04:32.029 always like that reality, one thing was always 00:04:32.029 --> 00:04:37.370 true. Church, in a way, was home. And when we 00:04:37.370 --> 00:04:41.639 moved to Colton, it was... actually our home 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.540 in a way, right? The church actually purchased 00:04:44.540 --> 00:04:48.699 the sanctuary, but also the home next to it to 00:04:48.699 --> 00:04:51.779 serve as a home for the pastor, right? So my 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:53.839 family lived in the home next to the sanctuary. 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.040 On those nights when I was feeling especially 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:06.360 depressed or lost in life, often in a state of... 00:05:07.019 --> 00:05:10.199 tears or you know just wanting to end my life 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.100 because just things were just so hard I would 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:15.920 steal the keys to the sanctuary I would just 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.560 sneak in there and I would lay down on the pew 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.259 looking up at the large cross in front of me 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:25.600 and I would just fall asleep I would just fall 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:31.740 asleep there and I'm not sure why I I don't know 00:05:31.740 --> 00:05:36.279 why I felt so comfortable and add peace there, 00:05:36.500 --> 00:05:39.459 but that's what it brought me. It brought me 00:05:39.459 --> 00:05:45.620 peace. Later in college, I continued to attend 00:05:45.620 --> 00:05:47.819 church. I mean, once I got to college, I mean, 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.480 there was definitely nothing forcing me to go. 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.600 My parents weren't going to have any say in whether 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.480 I went to church or not, you know. I didn't have 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.290 to go. I had... You know, it was nice to sleep 00:05:58.290 --> 00:06:00.730 in. I mean, I was a college student, right? So, 00:06:00.730 --> 00:06:03.230 you know, Saturdays often meant late nights. 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:05.350 And then so Sunday, it was hard getting up in 00:06:05.350 --> 00:06:07.670 the morning. But I continued to attend church. 00:06:09.850 --> 00:06:12.649 You got to understand that at this point, I didn't 00:06:12.649 --> 00:06:15.089 really believe in the existence of God, any God, 00:06:15.230 --> 00:06:18.910 right? To be accurate, I was probably what you 00:06:18.910 --> 00:06:20.589 would describe as agnostic, right? I didn't know 00:06:20.589 --> 00:06:22.709 one way or the other. But I was definitely not 00:06:22.709 --> 00:06:24.990 convinced that the existence of God and let alone 00:06:24.990 --> 00:06:27.610 a Christian one, right? I was definitely against 00:06:27.610 --> 00:06:31.129 most of the teachings of the church, at least 00:06:31.129 --> 00:06:33.329 the teachings I've encountered in my own life 00:06:33.329 --> 00:06:36.050 and exposure to this, which is honestly mostly 00:06:36.050 --> 00:06:40.829 fairly socially conservative. At least my dad's 00:06:40.829 --> 00:06:44.689 circle of friends, they tended to be very doctrinal. 00:06:44.689 --> 00:06:47.269 They seemed to be obsessed with the authority 00:06:47.269 --> 00:06:50.629 of the Bible and specific interpretations, honestly, 00:06:50.709 --> 00:06:59.470 of them. denomination was against women serving 00:06:59.470 --> 00:07:04.370 as lead pastors, which disgusted me. The sexism 00:07:04.370 --> 00:07:07.589 in the church was appalling. I mean, not just 00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:10.470 in theory, but also in practice, like the unfairness 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:13.350 and the discrimination. I remember even when 00:07:13.350 --> 00:07:16.189 I was young, none of this made sense. And then 00:07:16.189 --> 00:07:20.810 I became more angry about it as I started encountering 00:07:20.810 --> 00:07:25.480 people who were directly affected by it. The 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:29.600 churches that I often attended kind of not necessarily 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.180 like explicitly, but left a responsibility on 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:37.220 the poor and homeless to take care of their own 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:39.540 situation as if they were somehow responsible 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:43.480 for their own plight. And so, you know, and I 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:45.879 can't lie. There was the tinge of like, well, 00:07:45.980 --> 00:07:48.699 not a tinge, a lot of racism in a lot of these 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:53.199 Korean churches that I attended. It's particularly 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.279 directed at blacks and Latinos, but honestly, 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.519 it was a lot of bias against like darker skinned 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:04.660 Asians too, right? I couldn't understand how 00:08:04.660 --> 00:08:07.560 they could just throw the compassionate examples 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.000 of Jesus out the door so easily. And of course, 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.439 I had exposure to all the politics and corruption 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:15.579 happening behind the scenes in the church, right? 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.000 So I told you like my... Dad took me to all these 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.839 meetings. I think parents need to understand 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:23.740 that their kids probably understand a lot more 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:28.579 than, you know, and are aware of a lot more than 00:08:28.579 --> 00:08:30.339 they think they are, right? So, like, you know, 00:08:30.339 --> 00:08:31.839 my dad would take me and my brother to these 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.980 meetings and we were just left outside to play. 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:38.600 But we could hear things through the doors and 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:40.980 the walls. Like, it's not as if they were particularly, 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:45.019 you know, quiet at certain times. And also, like, 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:46.480 it's not as if the walls weren't particularly 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.350 thin. you could hear what they're talking about. 00:08:49.570 --> 00:08:51.750 And, you know, I'm a kid, so I don't understand 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:54.990 everything clearly, but from what I could gather, 00:08:55.110 --> 00:08:58.169 at least I knew that some pastors really did 00:08:58.169 --> 00:09:00.490 not like each other. I think it also helped that 00:09:00.490 --> 00:09:03.529 my mom was a gossip, so she would just spill 00:09:03.529 --> 00:09:05.230 the beans. I don't know if she did it intentionally 00:09:05.230 --> 00:09:07.909 or not, but she just spilled the beans on all 00:09:07.909 --> 00:09:11.710 this drama that was happening. Or, like, you 00:09:11.710 --> 00:09:14.370 know, I just learned about, like, high -ranking 00:09:14.370 --> 00:09:17.070 church members, like elders, stealing money from 00:09:17.070 --> 00:09:22.610 the church or other shady activities. I do know 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:24.809 that there were issues with pastors vying for 00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:28.450 power within the denomination, and they were 00:09:28.450 --> 00:09:30.090 willing to say all kinds of nasty things about 00:09:30.090 --> 00:09:33.929 each other in order to secure it. I was exposed 00:09:33.929 --> 00:09:38.429 to all this. So all this to say, I had good reason 00:09:38.429 --> 00:09:43.629 to not attend church. but I still chose to attend 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.110 church. And it wasn't out of habit. It was a 00:09:46.110 --> 00:09:51.429 conscious choice. I decided to do it. It was 00:09:51.429 --> 00:09:53.690 actually the one I attended while I was in college 00:09:53.690 --> 00:09:58.289 was this church that was north of UCLA. It was 00:09:58.289 --> 00:09:59.889 one of my dad's friend's church. I have this 00:09:59.889 --> 00:10:02.970 sneaky suspicion that the parents wanted the 00:10:02.970 --> 00:10:05.470 kids to get married to one another because I 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:09.620 always felt like my... Maybe not so much my parents, 00:10:09.779 --> 00:10:15.980 but my dad's friend. They pushed their daughters. 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:20.080 They treated me in a way where I felt very uncomfortable 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:21.620 as if they were trying to set me up for something, 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:25.460 right? With one of their daughters. Well, that's 00:10:25.460 --> 00:10:29.379 all speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised 00:10:29.379 --> 00:10:31.679 if there's some truth there. I would want to 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:33.899 go for an interview at some point to find out 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:38.240 what really happened. But the church had this 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.039 youth pastor who was, you know, willing to actually 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:44.860 pick me up every Sunday. Sometimes there were 00:10:44.860 --> 00:10:47.139 other students at UCLA that they would pick up, 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:49.980 ones that, you know, that grew up in their church. 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:53.480 But he was willing to, you know, it's a decent 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:55.779 drive. It's in the valley. So it was like a good 00:10:55.779 --> 00:10:58.720 like 20 plus minutes. Luckily on Sundays there 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.259 weren't really traffic. So he would pick me up 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:05.649 and then drop me back off on campus. You know, 00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:07.190 I think one of the reasons I kept on going was 00:11:07.190 --> 00:11:11.110 in part because of him, right? He loved to engage 00:11:11.110 --> 00:11:14.990 me, even though he knew my positions on all these 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:18.889 things and how I often poked and prodded, like 00:11:18.889 --> 00:11:22.750 everything from the Bible and the church to like 00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:25.309 a lot of the practices or doctors. Like I just, 00:11:25.309 --> 00:11:29.309 we just went at it with one another, right? And 00:11:29.309 --> 00:11:32.950 I'm pretty sure he enjoyed these talks. He definitely 00:11:32.950 --> 00:11:35.779 did not shy away from it. Um, and I think there 00:11:35.779 --> 00:11:37.080 was something about the fact that he was willing 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.419 to engage me that meant a lot to me. Um, at times 00:11:41.419 --> 00:11:44.639 I would get frustrated for sure. Right. Um, because, 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:46.679 you know, sometimes like, I mean, I'll be honest 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.320 with you, completely irrational responses, like 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.740 just drive me up the wall and just makes me go 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:56.539 absolutely nuts. Right. I mean, I'm a lot better 00:11:56.539 --> 00:11:59.960 about it now, but the fact that even the tirade 00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:03.200 Tuesdays exists tells you that I tend to sometimes. 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:09.940 be um pretty uh vocal in my responses to things 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:12.159 that i just don't think make any sense or things 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:16.840 i disagree with um but i remember like especially 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.820 this one conversation we had about uh the importance 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:21.299 of caring for the environment i was trying to 00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:22.639 come up with arguments that i thought would be 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.700 convincing for him right so i was like you know, 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:27.879 maybe the pragmatics of it, right? That there's 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:30.220 a necessity in the long term for human survival 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:33.039 that we need to start taking action now. This 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.600 was back in like early 2000, 2001 or something 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:41.350 like that, right? Or maybe like thinking, ooh, 00:12:41.490 --> 00:12:43.690 maybe I can take a biblical approach, right, 00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:46.490 and explain how it's kind of like a mandate of 00:12:46.490 --> 00:12:49.210 God to care for God's creation. This is part 00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:53.649 of human responsibility in the way that we treat 00:12:53.649 --> 00:12:56.669 animals and treat, you know, like trees and rivers. 00:12:57.610 --> 00:13:00.409 all these other things, right? And I think when 00:13:00.409 --> 00:13:02.830 he would just completely dismiss it and try to 00:13:02.830 --> 00:13:04.850 argue that it was just merely some political 00:13:04.850 --> 00:13:10.590 issue and it's not grounded in reality, he just 00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:13.409 denied the science of climate change altogether. 00:13:14.090 --> 00:13:17.389 I think that's when I just went nuts because 00:13:17.389 --> 00:13:22.629 I was like, you're just going to ignore all of 00:13:22.629 --> 00:13:25.649 the studies that have... been accumulating over 00:13:25.649 --> 00:13:28.129 until then you know are you going to ignore all 00:13:28.129 --> 00:13:29.830 the people who are experts in this field like 00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:31.970 it's just it just sounded ridiculous his approach 00:13:31.970 --> 00:13:34.090 i thought it was completely unreasonable and 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:36.690 i was just like would get so frustrated because 00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:40.029 it felt like reason didn't work with him right 00:13:40.029 --> 00:13:43.750 um another time i think we were arguing about 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:46.669 the trinity and uh how it just made absolutely 00:13:46.669 --> 00:13:48.289 no sense and he was trying to give an explanation 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:51.059 But his explanation made absolutely no sense 00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:52.940 at all. It was the worst kind of explanation. 00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:54.679 I was, like, getting frustrated. He was like, 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:56.620 you're not making any sense at all, like, reasons. 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:59.120 And it felt like I was hitting my head against 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:00.799 a brick wall. I remember one time he tried to, 00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:03.799 like, sun me and say, like, you know, something 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:05.779 along the lines of, like, oh, yeah, you know, 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:07.779 like, it's one of those things where, like, once 00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:10.940 you have faith and you're in it, then it all 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:13.960 just kind of, like, makes a lot of sense and 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.620 you could accept it, right? And I was like... 00:14:16.830 --> 00:14:19.330 No, that's the worst way to reason. That's not 00:14:19.330 --> 00:14:20.929 how to have a conversation with somebody and 00:14:20.929 --> 00:14:23.289 have a reasoned discussion back and forth, right? 00:14:24.370 --> 00:14:28.610 But even though some of these moments were really 00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:31.870 frustrating, they paled in comparison to the 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:33.850 fact that I really appreciated that he was willing 00:14:33.850 --> 00:14:35.990 to have a conversation with me, right? He was 00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:40.070 willing to take that time out. of his day, of 00:14:40.070 --> 00:14:42.610 his energy, to actually come all the way over 00:14:42.610 --> 00:14:45.070 to pick me up and to engage in these conversations. 00:14:45.110 --> 00:14:49.870 So I came to look forward to our drives to and 00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:57.029 from church. Still, you know, the truth was that 00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:03.049 I think I had a sense. I just felt like a kind 00:15:03.049 --> 00:15:07.440 of outsider at church. You know, it was kind 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.820 of weird because, you know, I share with you 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:11.960 that, you know, when I was a kid, I would go 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.279 to the sanctuary. That was a place of comfort. 00:15:15.379 --> 00:15:18.080 It was a place of peace. It was a place where, 00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:21.200 you know, outside, regardless of all the politics, 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:23.059 not as if I didn't know all the negative things 00:15:23.059 --> 00:15:32.440 about church, I just felt at home. But I regularly 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:37.440 felt like an outsider at church. And that feeling 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:45.980 just kind of has been with me for just the longest 00:15:45.980 --> 00:15:50.139 time. I was someone who, for many reasons that 00:15:50.139 --> 00:15:52.000 I already laid out, probably should not have 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.379 been attending church in the first place, yet 00:15:54.379 --> 00:15:58.159 I insisted on going. I mean, I didn't know exactly 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.830 why then, but... It's fairly clear to me now 00:16:02.830 --> 00:16:04.549 that there was a couple of things that I really 00:16:04.549 --> 00:16:08.610 was looking for, right? And one was that because 00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:12.870 church felt like home, I wanted to belong there. 00:16:14.049 --> 00:16:18.450 I wanted to be accepted and embraced like family. 00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:23.990 But I just didn't always feel that way because... 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:27.919 Well, you know, my beliefs about the church or 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.279 the doctrine or the institution or church history, 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.740 right? Like these things all led me to have a 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:36.620 lot of disagreements with pretty much anybody 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:42.740 at church. I became like the seed of discord, 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:46.299 maybe. Additionally, I think there's something 00:16:46.299 --> 00:16:50.000 else I wanted in going to church. And that's 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.759 really that I wanted the church to change. I 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.340 mean, the reality is that I was aware of the 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:59.759 history of Christianity at a fairly early age. 00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:05.059 My parents, I don't think they realized, they 00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:08.319 used to leave me in the library in the summers 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:12.240 because they couldn't afford child care. So what 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.440 they did was they just dropped me off at the 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.900 public library. at some point when I was old 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:17.240 enough, and then they would just leave me there 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:18.700 for, like, eight hours, and then they'll come 00:17:18.700 --> 00:17:20.099 pick me up at the end. Like, it's almost like 00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:23.019 the library became my babysitter. I remember 00:17:23.019 --> 00:17:24.400 my brother and I would just go through and just 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.759 read through as many books as we can as a way 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.619 to keep ourselves entertained. I mean, I'm talking 00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:31.359 back in the days when they didn't have computers 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.900 there. So it wasn't like I could play games. 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:37.579 There was no cell phone. You know, the public 00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:39.759 library was far enough away that I couldn't, 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:44.819 like, walk home, right? I spent a lot of time 00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:46.680 reading, and one of the things that I ended up 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.440 reading quite a bit of was a lot of biographies 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:56.400 and books on history, encyclopedias I ended up 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.960 reading quite a bit. I just read because there 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.559 was nothing else to do there, not because I particularly 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.839 enjoyed it. Eventually, I enjoyed some kinds 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.279 of reading, but even then, sometimes I needed 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:10.160 a break from it, so I just read whatever was 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.690 available, and I was exposed. I knew the history 00:18:14.690 --> 00:18:17.509 of Christianity, you know, going back to the 00:18:17.509 --> 00:18:20.670 days of the way that Christians persecuted other 00:18:20.670 --> 00:18:23.950 religions, were persecuted in return, but also 00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:26.529 did the persecuting. But I was also particularly 00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:29.990 aware, because I read a lot of works on U .S. 00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:33.009 history specifically, the role of the church, 00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:36.049 both good and bad, when it came to things like 00:18:36.049 --> 00:18:38.829 civil rights movement or the abolitionist movement 00:18:38.829 --> 00:18:42.799 or, you know. It just, let's be honest, it just 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.700 wasn't always pretty. And that's kind of putting 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:47.680 it mildly, right? The church was often the one 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.359 enacting harm and justice and injustice. They 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.359 were often siding with the oppressor, justifying 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:58.480 things like slavery or Jim Crow laws. And I've 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.440 already mentioned how my dad's church, like they 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.460 discriminated against women, which actually still 00:19:04.460 --> 00:19:10.049 happens in many churches today. The church rarely 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:12.349 seems to be at the forefront of bringing about 00:19:12.349 --> 00:19:18.390 justice. If it does, it's usually in the United 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:20.710 States anyways, it was like black churches, right? 00:19:20.849 --> 00:19:24.109 Or, you know, it would be churches that did not 00:19:24.109 --> 00:19:28.970 have the oppressive power in that church, right? 00:19:30.890 --> 00:19:34.589 But generally, they were always against things 00:19:34.589 --> 00:19:39.460 like, you know, women's rights. helping out immigrants, 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:42.940 people of color, or even the LGBTQ community, 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.079 right? These are all things that they've kind 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:46.799 of fought against, at least in the U .S., at 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.440 least. This is kind of the history of the church 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:54.900 collectively. I mean, I can go on, but maybe 00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:56.940 because the church felt like home, I didn't want 00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:00.279 to just abandon it and leave it in the state 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.140 that it was at. I wanted it to be better. I wanted... 00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:06.740 for it to reflect what I was really committed 00:20:06.740 --> 00:20:10.839 to, what my dad, in all his Bible studies and 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.579 all my arguments with him, kind of instilled 00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:19.940 in me, which was the search for truth and justice. 00:20:22.099 --> 00:20:25.259 I still remember the Bible studies I've had with 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:27.500 him. I get into arguments with him about all 00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:30.440 this stuff, but... At the end of the day, the 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:32.839 lessons that he really wanted me to take away 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.160 from it, I mean, you could see it in his selection 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.160 of Bible passages, but he would often read from 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:45.440 Proverbs and Philippians and Ephesians, and he 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:47.779 would read specifically these things telling 00:20:47.779 --> 00:20:51.539 me that it's important to gain wisdom, right? 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:54.619 It's not so much the exact details of the what 00:20:54.619 --> 00:20:58.150 and when and how. What was more important is 00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:01.910 gaining this wisdom and discernment to allow 00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:05.930 you to apply it to living out a life that is 00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:09.349 aligned with the search for and the bringing 00:21:09.349 --> 00:21:13.029 about of truth and justice, right? So for these 00:21:13.029 --> 00:21:16.250 reasons, I didn't want to leave the church, even 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:19.849 if I found myself frustrated with it. In fact, 00:21:19.869 --> 00:21:22.750 I even ended up going to Boston University for 00:21:22.750 --> 00:21:26.539 their theology program. I ended up going, I mean, 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:28.759 who does this, right? I ended up getting a master's 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.500 degree, not for any intellectual pursuit, not 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.440 in the pursuit of a job. It was just deeply personal. 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.819 I just felt so out of sync with the church and 00:21:40.819 --> 00:21:43.579 the church community as a whole and what they 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:49.160 were doing in the world, you know, that I just 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:56.380 wanted to find something. something to make sense 00:21:56.380 --> 00:21:59.740 of this kind of disconnect that I was experiencing. 00:22:00.019 --> 00:22:04.680 And I spent time, energy, and some money to go 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.720 ahead and pursue a full -on master's degree just 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:12.119 so I could just dedicate specific years of my 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:19.680 life to this search. And for a while, I felt 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.720 hopeful at Boston University. You know, it was 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.400 a program where, yeah, I personally was on the 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.339 more, I guess the degree itself was much more 00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:35.160 on the intellectual side, but I was taking classes 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:38.359 with future ministers, pastors from all over 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.359 the world, right? From different denominations. 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.559 And though they didn't always agree on everything, 00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:48.660 they didn't always see eye to eye, I was just 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:50.859 happy to find that there were... at least some 00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:52.940 people who saw some of the things that I saw 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:57.380 and cared about it enough to want to bring, to 00:22:57.380 --> 00:23:00.299 make the church a better place or had a desire 00:23:00.299 --> 00:23:02.640 to bring about change. I actually have this wonderful 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.119 memory of some of the Boston University students 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.779 starting a pub church where on Sundays they hit 00:23:09.779 --> 00:23:12.980 the bars, right? And then they hold a service 00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:16.609 there. It was like a fun way to like brainstorm 00:23:16.609 --> 00:23:20.049 when I remember like hearing them brainstorming 00:23:20.049 --> 00:23:23.029 that like, yeah, like instead of breaking, you 00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:24.910 know, bread, what we're going to do is we're 00:23:24.910 --> 00:23:27.849 going to break like chips or something or popcorn 00:23:27.849 --> 00:23:30.769 or whatever they had at the bar. And instead 00:23:30.769 --> 00:23:33.529 of like wine, they would drink beer. It's like 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:36.450 Boston culture. They just love their beer, right? 00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:40.609 But I love that they were trying to reach out 00:23:40.609 --> 00:23:43.670 to the people who were. really having a rough 00:23:43.670 --> 00:23:46.309 time, right? Like, who are the, where are you 00:23:46.309 --> 00:23:49.230 going to find people who are drinking away their 00:23:49.230 --> 00:23:51.509 life on a Sunday, right? I mean, you're going 00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:52.990 to find them at the pub, right? And they were 00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:56.369 wanting to reach people where they were at. And 00:23:56.369 --> 00:24:02.490 I thought that was so wonderful. I also remember 00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:04.910 that during my time there anyways, there was 00:24:04.910 --> 00:24:09.809 a deep division about how to view and whether 00:24:09.809 --> 00:24:13.569 or not to accept the LGBTQ community with regards 00:24:13.569 --> 00:24:17.650 to, you know, gay marriage, but also, you know, 00:24:17.650 --> 00:24:22.750 ordination. Like, can you ordain, you know, somebody 00:24:22.750 --> 00:24:26.410 who is lesbian or gay or, you know, so on. And, 00:24:26.410 --> 00:24:29.029 you know, to accept them into the church full 00:24:29.029 --> 00:24:33.089 on, right? Like, just make them a real member 00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:35.849 of the community and accept them as they are. 00:24:37.309 --> 00:24:40.089 What was, you know, I mean, it was tense. It 00:24:40.089 --> 00:24:42.170 was uncomfortable, a lot of the conversations. 00:24:42.309 --> 00:24:45.509 But for me, anyways, regardless of how things 00:24:45.509 --> 00:24:47.809 played out, I was already comforted in knowing 00:24:47.809 --> 00:24:50.609 that there were actually so many other people 00:24:50.609 --> 00:24:52.509 fighting for the kinds of same things that I 00:24:52.509 --> 00:24:55.509 was hoping that the church would come to embrace. 00:24:55.990 --> 00:25:00.130 They would just actually understand that people 00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:02.509 who are gay and lesbian, this is not some lifestyle 00:25:02.509 --> 00:25:09.039 choice or something. sinning against God. There's 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:12.220 a whole set of beliefs that seem to go with their 00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:16.880 understanding of a whole community that didn't 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:19.720 make any sense. I was glad to see that others 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.500 were fighting for the same things I was fighting 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:25.740 for. That gave me hope. They gave me a lot of 00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:31.579 hope. I think I also had a lot of hope from just 00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:35.039 encountering all these past... pastor essentially, 00:25:35.420 --> 00:25:40.960 who didn't keep me at an arm's length and just 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.099 embraced me into the fold at the church in a 00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:47.420 way that I don't think I really fully experienced 00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:51.240 while I was here, even in light of all the things 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.920 that I believed, that all the things I had doubts 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:59.210 about. They had no qualms with my doubts. and 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:03.049 uncertainty and questions and agnosticism about 00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:07.630 these things, right? Like they were willing to 00:26:07.630 --> 00:26:11.849 just, and it wasn't some sort of like, you know, 00:26:11.849 --> 00:26:15.250 malicious plan to like sucker me into something. 00:26:15.410 --> 00:26:17.549 They were just, they weren't trying to convert 00:26:17.549 --> 00:26:21.730 me and change my beliefs. They let me be who 00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:24.329 I was and they still were willing to accept me. 00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:27.150 And that I think made, gave me a lot of hope. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.019 Or at least at the time it did. One of them, 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.819 even now a pastor in the suburbs of Boston, one 00:26:34.819 --> 00:26:38.819 of whom even asked me to be the godfather to 00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:43.019 one of his kids. And it wasn't some sort of master 00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:45.220 plan. Well, maybe it was. Maybe it was some sort 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:50.160 of master plan of his to try to plant some seeds 00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:53.819 in my head or something. He would also tell me 00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:56.779 that I should be a pastor. He envisions me being 00:26:56.779 --> 00:26:58.559 a pastor. I wouldn't be surprised if he spent 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:01.180 a lot of time praying that I become a pastor 00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:08.599 myself. If you know my love -hate relationship 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:11.579 with the church, it's not going to happen. Let 00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:16.339 me just shut it down, right? But the hope that 00:27:16.339 --> 00:27:19.279 I got from my time at Boston, I got exactly what 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.960 I was looking for in Boston. had a sense of hope 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:25.619 because I think the biggest thing for me was 00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:32.079 I just felt like if I was who I was, then there 00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:36.200 would be no space for me in the church. If I 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.180 was who I was authentically, there would be no 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:40.880 space for me in the church. And my time in Boston 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:46.099 gave me hope that that might not be the case, 00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:49.720 that there might be space for me. And it carried 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:53.400 me for a long time, right? When I finished up 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.019 at Boston, I came back to California. I was a 00:27:56.019 --> 00:27:58.559 grad student at UC Santa Barbara, but I spent 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.099 a lot of time in L .A. because I had friends 00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:02.400 there. But I also started attending a church 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.940 in L .A. that was right up my alley, right? They 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:10.819 were big on justice and serving the community. 00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:17.970 I loved being a part of that community and serving 00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:20.750 places like Lincoln Heights and later South Central 00:28:20.750 --> 00:28:26.089 LA, where there was a lot of kids, a lot of families 00:28:26.089 --> 00:28:29.950 who were in need of just love. There was no trying 00:28:29.950 --> 00:28:32.289 to convince them of anything or converting anybody. 00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:35.609 It was just a way to extend love and grace and 00:28:35.609 --> 00:28:40.460 just honor. humanity right um to the fullest 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:44.720 uh and when i got married and moved over to philadelphia 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.420 for a while i we found a church there um you 00:28:48.420 --> 00:28:50.519 know that we became i still have friendships 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:54.019 there i still stay in contact with uh and you 00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:56.140 know when we moved back to california you know 00:28:56.140 --> 00:28:58.839 we found a church in orange county uh that became 00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:03.069 uh we became part of that community Oddly enough, 00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:07.009 at all these places, for some reason, I tend 00:29:07.009 --> 00:29:09.230 to end up becoming friends with the pastors, 00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:16.910 with the pastoral staff. The crew, crew or clique 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:19.430 sounds weird, but the people that I got closest 00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:23.430 with while I was at all these churches, well, 00:29:23.490 --> 00:29:25.049 maybe not in Philadelphia, but in Orange County, 00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:31.180 and then also back when I was in... In LA and 00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:34.680 everywhere I went, I just ended up becoming good 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.640 friends with a bunch of pastors. Or if they're 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.799 not officially serving as pastors, they studied 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.400 theology. They were about to be pastors. They 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.400 were on their way to being pastors. It just seemed 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.940 to gravitate towards that type, maybe. Yet everywhere 00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:55.859 I went, I honestly, I always felt kind of the 00:29:55.859 --> 00:29:59.509 same. I felt like... Yeah, I'm a part of this 00:29:59.509 --> 00:30:03.490 group. I have some hope, but I still feel like 00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:07.910 I'm on the outside looking in. I never felt that 00:30:07.910 --> 00:30:11.809 same thing that I felt when I was younger, when 00:30:11.809 --> 00:30:15.109 I would sneak into the church alone and I just 00:30:15.109 --> 00:30:19.009 felt at home. And I couldn't put my finger on 00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:21.990 it. I didn't really know why I was feeling the 00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:29.119 way I was feeling. Even though I seemed to, to 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.819 some degree anyways, be kind of embraced at all 00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.759 these churches, wherever it is I kind of went. 00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:40.940 And I think it wasn't until years into therapy 00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:43.640 that I think things began to become a little 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:47.420 clearer for me. And the truth was, it wasn't 00:30:47.420 --> 00:30:49.480 the church. There was nothing that the church 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.740 was doing. It wasn't anything about the church 00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:56.279 embracing me. It wasn't about the church accepting 00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:03.119 me, but rather it was me. I was actually refusing 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:09.039 this whole time to accept who I am, to accept 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:12.559 that I believed what I believed, and that I cared 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:16.900 about the things that I cared about. The truth 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:21.880 is that I never accepted anything that would 00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:26.210 constitute me a Christian. I don't know what 00:31:26.210 --> 00:31:28.089 definition other people are working with, but, 00:31:28.089 --> 00:31:34.230 you know, I didn't accept any of the doctrines. 00:31:34.289 --> 00:31:36.990 I was honestly critical of most of Christian 00:31:36.990 --> 00:31:40.069 history and its traditions, right? I think most 00:31:40.069 --> 00:31:42.690 of the traditions are actually, you know, appalling 00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:47.529 or have roots in something that is, for me anyways, 00:31:47.630 --> 00:31:50.029 unacceptable. Hell, I'm critical of most churches 00:31:50.029 --> 00:31:55.460 regardless of the denomination. I'm just... in 00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:59.720 that place. Much of the things that churches 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:03.420 are still debating to this day, honestly, were 00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:05.880 settled matters for me personally for a long 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.339 time. Things like gay marriage and women in leadership 00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:14.279 and, you know, reconciliation over past wrongs 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:19.420 by the church. I mean, it's, but it's also less 00:32:19.420 --> 00:32:23.779 so the beliefs, it's the practices. It's the 00:32:23.779 --> 00:32:27.740 living out of whatever it is. I don't know exactly 00:32:27.740 --> 00:32:31.240 what, because churches just, especially the Protestant 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:33.759 church, it's just fragmented in a lot of ways. 00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:36.180 There's just too many different groups moving 00:32:36.180 --> 00:32:39.119 in different ways. But at least the churches 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:44.900 that I've been a part of, it just feels like 00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:49.000 collectively as a community, they weren't moving 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:53.140 in the same direction I was. We didn't seem to 00:32:53.140 --> 00:32:56.960 have the same commitment. My commitment has always 00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.740 been to truth and justice. I think that it all 00:33:00.740 --> 00:33:03.200 just leads to the same place. Truth leads to 00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:06.500 goodness and goodness leads to truth. And we're 00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:09.240 all just moving in that same direction. That's 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:12.940 where my commitment is too. And I honestly could 00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:15.279 care less whether it came from the church or 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:21.450 elsewhere. And what I knew... from my own experiences 00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:25.750 anyways, that bothered me, that I wasn't willing 00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:28.130 to really acknowledge just how much it was bothering 00:33:28.130 --> 00:33:31.230 me, was that, for me anyways, the church always 00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:33.650 seemed to act in response to the world instead 00:33:33.650 --> 00:33:38.470 of initiating that change for the better. You 00:33:38.470 --> 00:33:42.269 know, I don't, I never, like, take, like, for 00:33:42.269 --> 00:33:44.069 instance, Black Lives Matter movement, right? 00:33:44.089 --> 00:33:46.289 Like, I didn't see churches at the forefront 00:33:46.289 --> 00:33:50.190 of it. I saw the churches as following. along 00:33:50.190 --> 00:33:53.789 with it right like they were they might some 00:33:53.789 --> 00:33:56.329 of them might have participated some of them 00:33:56.329 --> 00:34:01.410 might have opposed but you know they they just 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:04.789 i don't know like they just seem to be following 00:34:04.789 --> 00:34:07.029 along with something instead of being at the 00:34:07.029 --> 00:34:09.869 forefront of change the fight against poverty 00:34:09.869 --> 00:34:13.590 homelessness right like these things seem to 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:16.670 be like the places from everything i was taught 00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:20.610 from my dad you know And all those like, you 00:34:20.610 --> 00:34:23.969 know, family Bible studies, like everything I 00:34:23.969 --> 00:34:26.210 was taught tells me that these are the places 00:34:26.210 --> 00:34:28.170 where the church should be at the forefront of 00:34:28.170 --> 00:34:31.969 demanding change to eradicate poverty through 00:34:31.969 --> 00:34:35.630 various tax policies, through whatever means 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:39.150 necessary, right? To eradicate homelessness by... 00:34:39.710 --> 00:34:43.010 you know, not allowing people to amass so much 00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:46.489 wealth or to limit the houses that are being 00:34:46.489 --> 00:34:49.050 available or like at least affordable housing, 00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:51.550 right? Like find ways to solve these issues that 00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:53.130 they should be at the forefront of these issues, 00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:57.030 but they weren't. In fact, most of the time it 00:34:57.030 --> 00:34:59.130 seems like they could seem like they could care 00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:03.630 less until it was that time when they some, for 00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:07.320 some reason they cared, which. often seem to 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.380 coincide with when the rest of the world seem 00:35:09.380 --> 00:35:14.519 to care. Again, I'm not speaking on everybody. 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.539 I'm just talking collectively as a church, as 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:22.239 a larger body. It doesn't seem to be moving in 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.699 the same direction, at least that I want to be 00:35:24.699 --> 00:35:30.139 moving. And from my experience, all the churches 00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:32.039 that I've been to, it felt like I had to be the 00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.619 one to prompt. the church to start a fight against 00:35:35.619 --> 00:35:38.880 injustice instead of the church prompting me. 00:35:41.860 --> 00:35:45.039 Usually, you know, if the church prompts anything, 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:48.519 it has to do with community building or, you 00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:50.760 know, finding ways to care for people within 00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:56.019 the church. These aren't bad things, but they 00:35:56.019 --> 00:35:58.639 are very inward focused, and that's just not 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.719 me. That's never been me. My eyes were always 00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:06.559 on a bigger picture. a desire to kind of live 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:10.920 it out in the world outside of the church. And, 00:36:10.940 --> 00:36:14.980 you know, like I said, individuals might have 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:16.940 been working towards the same goal, but the church 00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:20.460 collectively, as I saw it, just wasn't, at least 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.940 not to the degree that I was wanting. And more 00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:25.780 than anything, I was trying to make the church 00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:30.380 be something that it wasn't. If anything, I wasn't 00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:34.469 accepting the church for what it was. And I was 00:36:34.469 --> 00:36:37.570 wanting for it to be something that fit more 00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:41.130 of what it is I needed for me to be able to accept 00:36:41.130 --> 00:36:48.849 it. And so when I chose to just be honest with 00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:52.650 myself about where the church was and where I 00:36:52.650 --> 00:36:56.989 was at, the decision was fairly clear for me. 00:36:57.670 --> 00:36:59.809 And I made a decision to leave the church for 00:36:59.809 --> 00:37:03.989 good. And to just shed any notion that I was 00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:13.489 a Christian in any sense of the word. And I just 00:37:13.489 --> 00:37:18.570 don't know how to explain how painful it is to 00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:25.849 say all this out loud. I still don't know exactly 00:37:25.849 --> 00:37:33.639 why it hurts so much. Maybe it's this feeling 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:39.500 that I lost a home and all the feelings that 00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:45.059 come with that. Or if it's the sense that I lost 00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:50.940 a sense of myself. Maybe it's the realization 00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:55.559 that I just never had something that I thought 00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:59.849 I had, right? This place that... a community, 00:37:59.949 --> 00:38:05.789 a home that I believed was something that I could 00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:09.389 be a part of. I don't know. What I do know is 00:38:09.389 --> 00:38:16.349 that as crappy as it feels, as painful as it 00:38:16.349 --> 00:38:23.889 is, I do sense, I can feel it, that I am being 00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:31.710 more honest with myself. And now I'm holding 00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:37.329 on to hope grounded in reality in some ways that 00:38:37.329 --> 00:38:42.449 at least if I'm being honest with myself, I can 00:38:42.449 --> 00:38:46.150 make clear -eyed decisions moving forward about 00:38:46.150 --> 00:38:52.929 what I want to do with my life. And real quick, 00:38:53.050 --> 00:38:59.539 to Pastor Bob, I'm sorry, your dreams. of my 00:38:59.539 --> 00:39:04.800 becoming a pastor, it ends here. I hate to burst 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.739 that bubble for you, but I do promise that I 00:39:08.739 --> 00:39:11.800 will fulfill my duties as a godfather and guide 00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:17.179 your son to living the right kind of life. Because 00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:21.139 that I do care about. And that's something that 00:39:21.139 --> 00:39:23.179 I hope the rest of the world does care about 00:39:23.179 --> 00:39:23.420 too.