WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.680 This is a production of Channel 11 and Channel 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:43.340 22. You were in a meeting with Gustavo Petro 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:45.439 earlier today. Did you come to any agreement 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:47.640 on counter -narcotic efforts? Yeah, we did. We 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:50.439 worked on it, and we got along very well. He 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.320 and I weren't exactly the best of friends, but 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:54.380 I wasn't insulted because I never met him. I 00:00:54.380 --> 00:00:57.340 didn't know him at all. And we got along very 00:00:57.340 --> 00:00:59.679 well, and we are. We're working on that. We're 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:01.539 working on some other things, too, including 00:01:01.539 --> 00:01:06.780 sanctions. No, we had a very good meeting. I 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:08.560 thought it was terrific. You know, it was great. 00:01:09.219 --> 00:01:13.420 I, myself, or I'm sure he will provide to all 00:01:13.420 --> 00:01:15.799 of you directly on True Social. But I spoke with 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:17.379 the president before the meeting. He was in a 00:01:17.379 --> 00:01:20.319 very positive headspace. He was looking forward 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.239 to sitting down with President Petro to have 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:25.060 a conversation. So we will all see how that went 00:01:25.060 --> 00:01:34.090 together. Well, it came out with an optimistic 00:01:34.090 --> 00:01:37.989 and positive air. What do I feel about what I 00:01:37.989 --> 00:01:44.069 saw and what I felt? Confusion around the reality 00:01:44.069 --> 00:01:47.109 that happens, for example, in problems like drug 00:01:47.109 --> 00:01:52.170 trafficking, like energy. Different lines, undoubtedly, 00:01:52.409 --> 00:01:58.039 of seeing the problem, some aggressive. other 00:01:58.039 --> 00:02:03.659 more possibly buildable among all of us. We grab 00:02:03.659 --> 00:02:07.540 on to that. What unites us, what separates us. 00:02:07.579 --> 00:02:11.180 We can be very different, civilizatorily speaking, 00:02:11.699 --> 00:02:15.460 historically speaking, but what unites us is 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:19.159 freedom. And that's where the conversation started. 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:23.180 You can make a pact for freedom, you can make 00:02:23.180 --> 00:02:28.009 a pact for life. Vida y libertad hoy van juntas 00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:33.490 y sobre eso es que nos podemos juntar. Pues esa 00:02:33.490 --> 00:02:44.030 va la conversación. Hola, ¿qué tal? Muy buenas 00:02:44.030 --> 00:02:46.469 noches, bienvenidas y bienvenidos a Maciasare, 00:02:46.590 --> 00:02:48.810 la barra de análisis de los medios públicos. 00:02:49.210 --> 00:02:51.270 Como ustedes ya lo saben, este es un espacio 00:02:51.270 --> 00:02:53.849 que es una coproducción del Canal 11 y del Canal 00:02:53.849 --> 00:02:58.110 22, y hoy toca el turno al análisis y la narrativa. 00:02:58.349 --> 00:03:00.990 Yo soy Daniela Barragán, soy periodista en SinEmbargo 00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:04.389 .mx, y le quiero dar la bienvenida a mis compañeras 00:03:04.389 --> 00:03:07.650 y compañeros que les vamos a acompañar este miércoles. 00:03:07.689 --> 00:03:10.650 Le doy la bienvenida a Pedro Miguel, periodista 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:13.409 y escritor, quien se incorpora ya de fijo a esta 00:03:13.409 --> 00:03:16.090 mesa de los miércoles en Macionsare. Pedro, muy 00:03:16.090 --> 00:03:18.349 buenas noches. Dani, buenas noches, muchas gracias. 00:03:23.090 --> 00:03:43.479 Good night, everyone. Let's get started. Today, 00:03:43.539 --> 00:03:46.159 as you already heard, we are going to talk about 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.120 this meeting that the president of Colombia and 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:51.800 the president of the United States had yesterday. 00:03:52.969 --> 00:03:55.789 se reunieron en Washington. Bueno, ando sin antes 00:03:55.789 --> 00:03:58.430 avisarles que para nuestra segunda parte del 00:03:58.430 --> 00:04:00.490 programa vamos a hablar, para que se queden, 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:03.150 sobre la creación del Frente Amplio Democrático 00:04:03.150 --> 00:04:05.969 que busca combatir la reforma electoral que todavía 00:04:05.969 --> 00:04:08.349 no se presenta por parte del Ejecutivo, pero 00:04:08.349 --> 00:04:11.229 vamos a arrancar con el tema de esta reunión 00:04:11.229 --> 00:04:13.550 que tuvo lugar el día de ayer en Washington. 00:04:14.659 --> 00:04:19.259 Esta reunión buscaba cerrar o aminorar esta tensión 00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:24.000 que también viene desde la llegada de Donald 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.959 Trump en este segundo periodo de su gobierno. 00:04:26.899 --> 00:04:30.139 El presidente Donald Trump, como en muchos otros 00:04:30.139 --> 00:04:33.139 países, había amenazado a Colombia y el presidente 00:04:33.139 --> 00:04:35.980 de ese país, Gustavo Petro, había optado por 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:40.079 responder en distintas ocasiones. No en el tono 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.639 grosero de Trump, pero sí... with a challenging 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:47.379 tone on many occasions. So this meeting sought 00:04:47.379 --> 00:04:51.959 to lessen that tension that we saw during all 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:55.259 these months. The balance they gave was that 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:58.699 it was a pleasant meeting and that they took 00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:03.790 a good impression of each other. But there is 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:06.709 a whole context in the case of the relationship 00:05:06.709 --> 00:05:09.550 between the United States and Colombia. After 00:05:09.550 --> 00:05:12.310 the tension that there was between the United 00:05:12.310 --> 00:05:16.269 States and Venezuela, the problems with Colombia... 00:05:16.569 --> 00:05:22.129 Even a month ago, on January 3rd, when the kidnapping 00:05:22.129 --> 00:05:24.170 of President Maduro took place, the attack on 00:05:24.170 --> 00:05:28.449 Venezuela, in that press conference, Trump himself 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:32.310 points out that he follows Colombia. He tells 00:05:32.310 --> 00:05:34.980 Petro to take care of himself because... They 00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:37.000 know that he manufactures cocaine, he is called 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.120 a sick man, he launches himself directly against 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.500 Petro, to whom they even took away his visa in 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:45.740 New York because he participated in a protest 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:49.120 against the genocide in Gaza. They take away 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:53.720 his visa, but after various meetings on Twitter 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:58.899 by both presidents... President Petro announced 00:05:58.899 --> 00:06:03.160 this meeting, which also sought to diminish everything 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.019 that was being generated in Colombia on the part 00:06:06.019 --> 00:06:08.300 of a right wing that reminds us a bit of the 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:10.459 one we have in our country, which was asking 00:06:10.459 --> 00:06:13.899 its president to respect Washington, to not make 00:06:13.899 --> 00:06:18.040 them angry. But now, with this reception and 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.379 the balance, it seems that the right wing is 00:06:21.379 --> 00:06:24.879 not playing. ¿Cómo arrancamos? ¿Estas reuniones 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:27.879 son garantía de que Trump se va a calmar? ¿Qué 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.660 asegura esta reunión para Colombia? Pedro, adelante. 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.519 Antes que nada, a mí me sorprendió mucho la temeridad 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:40.180 de Gustavo Petro de ir a visitar a un secuestrador 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:44.459 a su casa, porque te la juegas. Es decir, el 00:06:44.459 --> 00:06:47.079 tipo secuestró a un presidente latinoamericano. 00:06:47.629 --> 00:06:49.829 Yo creo que no había ninguna garantía de que 00:06:49.829 --> 00:06:52.410 lo dejara salir de la Casa Blanca o del sótano 00:06:52.410 --> 00:06:57.589 o de la cárcel. De veras, lo digo en serio. Por 00:06:57.589 --> 00:07:03.410 otra parte, en términos de viraje político, me 00:07:03.410 --> 00:07:06.209 parece que ha empezado a entenderse que aunque 00:07:06.209 --> 00:07:10.430 Donald Trump sea un criminal, un delincuente, 00:07:10.550 --> 00:07:15.110 un tipo que rompe toda la legalidad internacional 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:19.170 y local de su país, You have to talk to him for 00:07:19.170 --> 00:07:21.310 a very simple reason, because he's an armed criminal. 00:07:22.029 --> 00:07:24.709 And with an armed criminal, it's better to talk. 00:07:25.649 --> 00:07:29.569 And I think that's what the president, Claudia 00:07:29.569 --> 00:07:30.230 Sheinbaum, understood from the very beginning. 00:07:30.670 --> 00:07:32.470 I think it was more difficult for President Petro 00:07:32.470 --> 00:07:35.910 to understand him, and he was there like this, 00:07:36.069 --> 00:07:39.529 watching who was more gossipy. Y en algún momento 00:07:39.529 --> 00:07:42.610 entendió, y lo ha entendido la presidenta en 00:07:42.610 --> 00:07:47.129 funciones de Venezuela, Dalsy Rodríguez. Entonces, 00:07:47.250 --> 00:07:50.129 creo que empieza a haber un entendimiento de 00:07:50.129 --> 00:07:53.990 que tienes que hablar con este ser. ¿Hay alguna 00:07:53.990 --> 00:07:57.250 garantía de que eso va a resolver los problemas? 00:07:57.550 --> 00:08:00.870 No, no hay ninguna garantía. Pero sí se puede 00:08:00.870 --> 00:08:03.720 ir... kicking the bucket, as it is said vulgarly, 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.259 and you can go like letting time pass, because 00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:10.180 in addition Trump is getting worn out at a tremendous 00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:14.360 speed and very accelerated, and well, let it 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:18.759 pass from here to November, which are the midterm 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.759 elections, and in the worst case, his full presidency. 00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:28.100 I think that these are always opportunities to 00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:32.580 analyze how they hold power. characters like 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:36.220 Trump, who are also, as we have said other times 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:38.940 here at this table, absolutely unpredictable. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.159 But that unpredictability is also part of their 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.440 way of dominating, or of exercising a certain 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:53.460 domain. It caught my attention, considering that... 00:08:54.029 --> 00:08:57.909 that Trump uses this kind of meetings to humiliate 00:08:57.909 --> 00:09:01.090 his visitors. Let's assume he didn't kidnap them, 00:09:01.129 --> 00:09:02.970 but a good humiliation could have been taken. 00:09:03.210 --> 00:09:07.210 A handshake, you know, like the things he usually 00:09:07.210 --> 00:09:09.629 does. What Zelensky does to him. Exactly, what 00:09:09.629 --> 00:09:12.730 he has done to other senators. However, this 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:16.470 was a closed door. So that's already like a... 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:20.779 It's already breaking a pattern. I think that 00:09:20.779 --> 00:09:23.720 Trump and his advisers have already told him, 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.259 as they have told Milley, that he has to lower 00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:29.100 the tone of aggressiveness a bit, but that does 00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:33.440 not mean that he is more conciliatory. He is 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.620 simply looking for other, let's say, softer or 00:09:37.620 --> 00:09:42.940 softer ways to dominate and to exercise what 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:49.139 he considers his authority. in Latin America. 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:55.259 It is also very significant that exactly a month 00:09:55.259 --> 00:09:58.980 later, on January 3, Maduro is kidnapped. On 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:02.240 February 3, he meets with the one who was going 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:06.879 to be the next. It seems to me that we must always 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:10.200 be attentive and cautious about these modes. 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:11.759 I also thought, for example, because we don't 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.580 have an image of President Sheinbaum in the oval 00:10:15.580 --> 00:10:19.289 room. How good! I mean, so far, the truth is, 00:10:19.289 --> 00:10:21.409 how good. I think that's what I do. Because I 00:10:21.409 --> 00:10:24.070 think I would use it. You don't know how you're 00:10:24.070 --> 00:10:26.110 going to use it. You don't know what image you're 00:10:26.110 --> 00:10:29.509 going to end up giving. Also, I think it's fine. 00:10:29.690 --> 00:10:33.429 I mean, that the president doesn't get in that 00:10:33.429 --> 00:10:35.970 place at this moment, it seems to me that so 00:10:35.970 --> 00:10:39.190 far it has been a lucky move. Well, I want to 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:43.789 see the matter from both sides. At first, in 00:10:43.789 --> 00:10:46.450 a situation so tense in the region, with so much 00:10:46.450 --> 00:10:50.429 escalation, with the kidnapping of Maduro, every 00:10:50.429 --> 00:10:53.610 negotiation that leads to a distance is good. 00:10:54.029 --> 00:10:57.730 In that, I agree with Pedro. What do you do with 00:10:57.730 --> 00:10:59.629 an empire that is behaving like a psychopath? 00:10:59.929 --> 00:11:07.929 Well, you try to de -escalate. In English, you 00:11:07.929 --> 00:11:32.820 try to talk them down. It's less ideological 00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:36.720 than other members of his team, like Marco Rubio, 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:38.559 the Secretary of State, or his advisor, Stephen 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:40.980 Miller. They really are the ideologists. Trump 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:43.779 is a businessman, a failed and criminal businessman, 00:11:43.779 --> 00:11:46.399 but he goes a lot with this vibe of personal 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.600 encounter, even if he's a socialist, even if 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:51.980 he's a petro -socialist. So there's something 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.639 that can be won with a personal encounter, sometimes 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.929 in a less expected way. On the other side of 00:11:57.929 --> 00:12:01.730 the coin, it could lend itself to Trump's game. 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:05.250 As you say, Violeta, he's trying to manipulate 00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:07.909 the matter in another way. And this could be 00:12:07.909 --> 00:12:11.480 this, that, look... Yo puedo secuestrar a un 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:14.879 jefe de estado y a las pocas semanas llega el 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.659 jefe de estado del país a un lado como si fuera 00:12:17.659 --> 00:12:20.240 nada. Es decir, prestarse al juego de normalizar 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:24.019 este Trump, de secuestrar a alguien y luego como 00:12:24.019 --> 00:12:28.360 si todo, como si nada. Y entonces tiende a crear 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.559 un poco un asunto unipersonal. Petro con Trump 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:34.279 o Scheinbaum con Trump. Cuando lo que hace falta 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:37.929 es una respuesta regional como si esbozó. in 00:12:37.929 --> 00:12:40.289 the letter we saw from Mexico, Brazil, Chile, 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:43.169 Colombia, Spain, Uruguay, after the kidnapping 00:12:43.169 --> 00:12:46.409 of Maduro. Because this is about unipersonalizing 00:12:46.409 --> 00:12:49.669 things between personalities. The issue now is 00:12:49.669 --> 00:12:52.710 regional and, in fact, worldwide. And well, here 00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:56.399 the point is that... In the end, these pressures 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.480 that Donald Trump exerts do have an effect in 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:01.720 the countries, that is, it becomes unipersonal 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.779 because what you have to start seeing is for 00:13:04.779 --> 00:13:07.240 your country, that is, to take your country forward 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.779 first and then think about the region. Here, 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:12.539 what I would like to highlight is that we again 00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:16.000 see the drug trafficking factor only as a pretext. 00:13:16.649 --> 00:13:20.210 a pretext to pressurize the countries. He did 00:13:20.210 --> 00:13:22.610 it first with Canada and with Mexico, let's not 00:13:22.610 --> 00:13:25.529 forget it, he was the first to threaten with 00:13:25.529 --> 00:13:28.450 the aranceles, reaching the government, and also 00:13:28.450 --> 00:13:32.049 in the Mexican case in particular, he establishes 00:13:32.049 --> 00:13:36.230 this criterion that the Mexican cartels are terrorists 00:13:36.230 --> 00:13:38.750 and then he will act. He does that on January 00:13:38.750 --> 00:13:42.710 20. But then he extends this same accusation. 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:46.909 is what leads to the kidnapping of President 00:13:46.909 --> 00:13:49.990 Nicolás Maduro with an accusation that later 00:13:49.990 --> 00:13:52.090 falls on them because there is no cartel of the 00:13:52.090 --> 00:13:54.649 suns and they themselves recognize it in that 00:13:54.649 --> 00:13:59.080 trial. With Gustavo Petro it's the same thing. 00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:01.360 The accusation you told us at the beginning of 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.240 the program, Dani, has to do with that. He even 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:07.700 said, I know you're a drug trafficker. That's 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:12.679 the initial accusation. And that's it. It's just 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.159 a pretext. Because in the end we realize that 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.320 in reality Donald Trump doesn't intend to end 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:21.659 the opioid crisis in his country. That's not 00:14:21.659 --> 00:14:26.649 what bothers him. And also important, not to 00:14:26.649 --> 00:14:29.350 stop seeing who are the real ones responsible 00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:33.370 for this opioid crisis that in reality have not 00:14:33.370 --> 00:14:39.190 had any consequence beyond these multimillionaire 00:14:39.190 --> 00:14:42.370 fines, which are these manufacturers or these 00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:44.870 pharmaceutical companies. Johnson & Johnson, 00:14:45.250 --> 00:14:48.169 Purdupharma, Teva Pharmaceuticals, Allergan. 00:14:49.710 --> 00:14:52.970 These are the real ones responsible for the opioid 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:56.120 crisis and that's what it's for. to pressure 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.860 the countries again. And indeed, we didn't know 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:01.559 if Petro was really going to get out of there 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.379 well. It went well, that's good, that's good 00:15:05.379 --> 00:15:08.000 for the Colombian people. It's not the same with 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.320 the Venezuelan people and we can't forget it. 00:15:10.820 --> 00:15:14.100 Yes, as we already have those two, those two 00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:17.980 models of behaving in front of Trump, Petro's. 00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:20.840 which was like the one we used to say, yes, break 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.600 with the United States, what we all wanted, respond 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.879 to the power, and no, you're not going to bend 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.149 us. that at the end of the day ends up exposing 00:15:29.149 --> 00:15:32.509 an economy that is very brotherly, that largely 00:15:32.509 --> 00:15:35.210 depends on the United States. And the other, 00:15:35.289 --> 00:15:37.350 and the other model of negotiation, which is 00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:40.669 that of the president, which is, at least I liked 00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:44.269 the term fanfare, because they did start to be 00:15:44.269 --> 00:15:48.370 very, in that way, both Trump and Petro himself, 00:15:48.370 --> 00:15:51.049 and that of the president much calmer, right? 00:15:51.269 --> 00:15:54.789 As much as we want to break with the United States, 00:15:55.179 --> 00:15:57.340 It's not going to happen. We can't do it that 00:15:57.340 --> 00:16:00.259 easily. I mean, it's not like we have the water 00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:02.840 up to here because there were problems that were 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.460 generated in 2018. No, I mean, it's decades in 00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:09.139 which the governments of Mexico surrendered themselves 00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:11.539 to the arms of the United States and now we have 00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:15.240 to start generating internal growth. Everything 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.659 that is being done, the data that has been presented 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:20.080 in the last few days, in the morning, was about 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.440 investments and the diagnostics of the plans. 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:28.899 of government are impressive. So Petro, without 00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:31.240 wanting to go all the way around, comes to that 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.379 strategy of better calming down the spirits. 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:39.500 But I think that now the sensitive issue is completely 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:43.679 on Trump's turf, because, let's say, nothing 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.840 is going well for him. There are protests in 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:51.759 Minneapolis. the anger that is finally reaching 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.220 other states due to the savagery of its police, 00:16:56.659 --> 00:17:02.899 of ICE. There is also the grotesque of Epstein's 00:17:02.899 --> 00:17:05.859 files, which is also very surprising to see how 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:08.440 the press in Mexico, by the way, has not treated 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:13.380 it as it should. La popularidad se le está viniendo 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:17.480 abajo. Se exhiben los pretextos que utiliza para 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.420 hacer lo que se le ocurre al día. Y solamente 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:24.700 me queda eso, ¿no? De lo que es capaz de hacer 00:17:24.700 --> 00:17:27.500 un hombre desesperado cuando se le está cayendo 00:17:27.500 --> 00:17:31.099 todo lo de la popularidad. Las encuestas no están 00:17:31.099 --> 00:17:34.740 a su favor. Entonces, pues tendría de dos. O 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:38.059 actuar con manotazo o resguardarse, pero ese 00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:41.900 no es trompo. Bueno, Trump da manutazos como 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:44.720 forma de resguardarse. Es que esto es importante 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.420 verlo. Es decir, hay huidas hacia adelante muy 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:53.099 claras. La crisis de Minneapolis, yo creo que 00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:55.259 lo ha colocado en buena medida contra las cuerdas 00:17:55.259 --> 00:18:00.319 porque Minneapolis encabeza y sintomatiza los 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.839 malestares en contra de la presidencia de Trump 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.220 en todo Estados Unidos. Hay un movimiento inédito, 00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:08.980 hay un punto de viraje, hay un punto de inflexión 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:11.819 allí, que él tiene que eludir de alguna manera. 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:15.700 Luego viene toda la coprodispersión de los archivos 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:19.859 de Epstein, que hasta donde hemos visto, todo 00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:22.740 es nebuloso, confuso, y cualquiera jala para 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:25.299 su lado. Hubo un medio en México que se atrevió 00:18:25.299 --> 00:18:28.579 a poner un encabezado de que AMLO estaba involucrado 00:18:28.579 --> 00:18:31.099 en los archivos de Epstein, por ejemplo. Es decir, 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.119 esto da para cualquier inmundicia. I'd rather 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.579 not get involved. But Trump gives a big hand 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:39.339 and he negotiates. He negotiates and gives a 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:41.319 big hand. We must not forget, besides, that he's 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.380 a liar, that immediately after the cordial call 00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:46.859 with Claudia Sheinbaum... We're going to go to 00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:49.079 a break. Forgive me. We're going to go to a break 00:18:49.079 --> 00:19:11.990 and we'll be back. We are back and Pedro, we 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:15.289 interrupt you abruptly. But finish, please. I 00:19:15.289 --> 00:19:18.529 just wanted to say that after the call with President 00:19:18.529 --> 00:19:22.049 Sheinbaum, to whom he praises at that moment 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:24.549 and who says that what luck of the Mexicans to 00:19:24.549 --> 00:19:27.470 have a president like that, the next day he releases 00:19:27.470 --> 00:19:30.940 a lie to destabilize. to President Sheinbaum. 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.140 And she says, she promised me that she was going 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:37.579 to cut oil shipments to Cuba. And President Sheinbaum 00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:40.339 says, we never talked about that. But Denise 00:19:40.339 --> 00:20:11.829 Tracy says it's true. Violeta. Well, I think 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:18.069 that this open lie strategy of Trump also deserves 00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:23.829 an analysis. I think it is also a way of expressing 00:20:23.829 --> 00:20:27.269 that he can be against all the rules, even against 00:20:27.269 --> 00:20:30.230 the most basic rules of the common sense, which 00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:34.150 is that when you talk to another person, assume 00:20:34.150 --> 00:20:36.869 that he says, if not the truth, at least what 00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:40.900 he thinks is true. And the palmar lies of Trump, 00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:43.140 I mean, like when he tells us after the murder 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:50.000 of Rene Goodwood, that she was attacking an officer, 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.980 that he had run him over, that he was hospitalized. 00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:56.519 Things that people, I really even watched the 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:00.160 video again. How is it possible that it is so 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.799 contradictory with the facts? It qualifies it 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.299 as domestic terrorism, in fact, the aggression. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:08.559 And then he throws everything back when he finds 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:13.500 out that his father was a supporter of his. So 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:18.319 I think this movement is actually a management 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.079 of the rules of the conversation to your liking. 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.180 There are rules that we can break and there are 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:29.359 rules that we will never break. There are certain 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.559 conventions that are not practical to everyone 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:37.769 and therefore we always fulfill them. This flagrantness 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:40.829 with which he lies or with which he says things 00:21:40.829 --> 00:21:42.569 that did not happen, that is, he knows that the 00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:44.789 president is going to listen to what he is saying, 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:46.630 he knows that he is going to deny it in a few 00:21:46.630 --> 00:21:50.809 minutes, but it is also a way of saying, well, 00:21:50.829 --> 00:21:53.369 I am against all the rules and against all the 00:21:53.369 --> 00:21:55.809 conventions, and that is also the way in which 00:21:55.809 --> 00:21:59.130 they exercise their power or their desire for 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:04.170 dominion, this type of leaders of extreme rights. 00:22:05.690 --> 00:22:10.849 the new moves of the right. Yes, there was a 00:22:10.849 --> 00:22:14.170 very important moment for me in the press conference 00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:17.170 that Petro gave after the meeting with Trump. 00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:20.250 Someone asked him, a month ago it seemed that 00:22:20.250 --> 00:22:24.789 Trump was going to bomb Bogotá and now they are 00:22:24.789 --> 00:22:28.230 all friends. What happened? How could he have 00:22:28.230 --> 00:22:32.190 changed things so quickly? And Petro said, it's 00:22:32.190 --> 00:22:34.809 a popular organization, that people go out on 00:22:34.809 --> 00:22:38.869 the streets. He also referred to the Gaza issue, 00:22:38.869 --> 00:22:42.710 which partially stopped the genocide in Gaza. 00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:46.470 But he also made a very important point, that 00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:48.690 people should go out on the streets. And although 00:22:48.690 --> 00:22:52.009 it doesn't seem like this is important, it is. 00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:54.730 Here there was a great march in repudiation of 00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:56.369 what happened in Venezuela. There were marches 00:22:56.369 --> 00:22:59.500 in various parts. of the world. It is interesting 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:02.200 because I was just in Colombia covering this 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.160 Congress of the International Progressist. It 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.720 is interesting that there is a lot of energy 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.859 with the historical pact now. They have achieved 00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:12.759 a very important feat in Colombia, to unite a 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.619 whole series of small parties in one figure, 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:17.740 which is the historical pact, which is a great 00:23:17.740 --> 00:23:19.140 achievement there. And there is a lot of energy 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:21.579 there. And this does have an effect. That is 00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:24.039 to say, Trump knows that he is not only dealing 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:26.079 with Petro, but with the force of the historical 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.609 pact behind him. like in Mexico, not only the 00:23:28.609 --> 00:23:31.829 president, but the popular mobilization that 00:23:31.829 --> 00:23:35.349 supports him. And these things do have an effect, 00:23:35.589 --> 00:23:39.869 and we have to emphasize that a lot, because 00:23:39.869 --> 00:23:42.369 the elections are coming in Colombia this year, 00:23:42.470 --> 00:23:45.269 like in Brazil. And it's not a question of whether 00:23:45.269 --> 00:23:47.549 the United States will participate in these elections, 00:23:47.769 --> 00:23:50.619 but how. And precisely one of the themes in this 00:23:50.619 --> 00:23:54.839 conference was how to create a more robust mechanism 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.819 of observation of elections in the whole region, 00:23:57.980 --> 00:24:00.279 taking into account that Trump is going to get 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.660 into all of them. And that's the issue there. 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:06.279 It's very important. And as they say, even if 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:08.539 it's been a good meeting, the next day Trump 00:24:08.539 --> 00:24:12.119 can do another barbarity. For a moment they're 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:14.279 sautéing the president and then five minutes 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:18.250 later he's glorifying. the U .S. war against 00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:22.829 Mexico in 1846, saying the most barbaric things 00:24:22.829 --> 00:24:27.190 about it. So the personal encounter can be relaxed, 00:24:27.589 --> 00:24:31.130 but also with Trump... It's not guaranteed. It's 00:24:31.130 --> 00:24:36.009 not guaranteed. I am very concerned that in this 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:39.589 field Trump is winning by dividing the peoples, 00:24:39.869 --> 00:24:44.329 or at least the leaders, and that at the same 00:24:44.329 --> 00:24:46.950 time they are winning the rights, especially 00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:50.690 in the region, in Latin America. So every time 00:24:50.690 --> 00:24:55.029 the left is a little more isolated, and in that 00:24:55.029 --> 00:24:58.630 sense... I am also very concerned about what 00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:02.730 it is doing in parallel with all these pressures. 00:25:04.010 --> 00:25:06.950 particularly today that this plan is presented 00:25:06.950 --> 00:25:11.089 to generate a block around critical minerals 00:25:11.089 --> 00:25:14.710 and oil. I am very concerned because the pressure 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:17.250 comes against Mexico and it comes because of 00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:19.589 the lithium that is in Mexico, in the salmueras, 00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.109 which has already been said through Mexican oil, 00:25:22.130 --> 00:25:26.150 also all this that is in Sonora, these reserves. 00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:30.450 And all this is given in times when the people 00:25:30.450 --> 00:25:33.309 have to see for themselves. There is the whole 00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:37.869 Cuba issue in all this. Very terrible, it seems 00:25:37.869 --> 00:25:41.710 to me, the vision of many media corporations 00:25:41.710 --> 00:25:45.549 attacking the humanitarian aid that Mexico is 00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:47.730 giving to Cuba, or that it is trying to give, 00:25:47.990 --> 00:25:51.589 through not only oil shipments, but also other 00:25:51.589 --> 00:25:56.740 requirements. And all this goes... in a sense 00:25:56.740 --> 00:25:59.500 in which Donald Trump is winning, that is, he 00:25:59.500 --> 00:26:03.539 is dividing, he is not generating or there are 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:08.660 no conditions to generate a true union that represents 00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:11.720 this challenge called the United States in a 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:16.319 moment also of crisis of the empire. And I think 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:20.400 we should be very attentive to what corresponds 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.930 to Mexico, but also to the whole region. And 00:26:23.930 --> 00:26:26.710 particularly in the case of Mexico, pay attention 00:26:26.710 --> 00:26:31.450 to what they call non -harmful measures or subtracting 00:26:31.450 --> 00:26:33.869 non -harmful obstacles, because that's where 00:26:33.869 --> 00:26:35.869 these issues come from, like those of critical 00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:39.049 minerals. That is, to pressure on things that 00:26:39.049 --> 00:26:41.769 are strategic for Mexico, that have to do with 00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:45.569 its energy sovereignty, with its food sovereignty, 00:26:45.690 --> 00:26:49.880 etc. You have to be careful because in effect 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.140 Donald Trump has a plan and it's coming out moderately 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:57.460 well. I totally disagree. We have to fight a 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:02.359 little bit, right? Go ahead. Look, my law didn't 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.240 win thanks to Trump. It won thanks to the Peronists. 00:27:06.890 --> 00:27:09.250 CAST didn't win thanks to Trump. I didn't say 00:27:09.250 --> 00:27:12.410 they won thanks to Trump. I said that while he 00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:15.309 manages to make this division, the right advances. 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.269 Yes, but let's see, this advance of the right 00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:21.910 and Trump, I think they are different phenomena. 00:27:22.589 --> 00:27:25.230 Bolivia. What's there in Bolivia? An internal 00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:28.339 rupture of the mass that ends everything. ¿Qué 00:27:28.339 --> 00:27:32.099 hay en Chile? El presidente más inepto en la 00:27:32.099 --> 00:27:36.079 historia posiblemente de la galaxia. ¿En Argentina 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:40.500 qué tenemos? Un conflicto peronista y una ineptitud 00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:43.960 que lleva a mi ley al poder. Al final no hay 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:47.220 unidad. América Latina no está unida. Eso es 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.799 lo que yo dije. No, pero no está unida no por 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.660 Trump. No está unida por sus propias razones, 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.759 porque el segundo ciclo progresista se agotó 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:58.890 mucho antes de lo que se pensaba. And you say, 00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:03.329 Trump has a plan. Having a plan is a proposal 00:28:03.329 --> 00:28:06.789 of order. I think what Trump has is a proposal 00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:11.170 of disordering the world. When he attacks institutions, 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:18.450 laws, uses, modes, traditions, diplomacy, everything, 00:28:18.809 --> 00:28:22.130 against the economy of the United States, what 00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:27.369 he's doing is disordering, not ordering. Y creo 00:28:27.369 --> 00:28:29.309 que esto no obedece a un plan, creo que esto 00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:32.950 obedece a una emergencia. Es decir, él tiene 00:28:32.950 --> 00:28:34.970 razón en haber declarado la emergencia nacional. 00:28:35.190 --> 00:28:36.430 ¿Qué tal Honduras, Pedro? ¿Esto fue nada más 00:28:36.430 --> 00:28:38.589 culpa del Partido Libre? No, no, no. En Honduras 00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:40.349 hubo una intervención clara y además Honduras 00:28:40.349 --> 00:28:43.450 es un estado tremendamente débil y tremendamente 00:28:43.450 --> 00:28:46.390 dependiente como los estados centroamericanos. 00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:51.089 Ese es un caso, pero Sudamérica es otro. Ecuador 00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:54.210 es otro caso, pero es otro caso. Entonces, a 00:28:54.210 --> 00:28:56.799 mí me parece que lo que él está expresando, porque 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.099 declaró la emergencia nacional. ¿Por qué? Porque 00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:03.319 la superpotencia Cuba amenaza al pobre Estados 00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:09.019 Unidos con atacarlo, con agredirlo. México interviene 00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:11.160 en los asuntos internos de Estados Unidos. Es 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.740 decir, estas visiones no se sostienen. Yo creo 00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.420 que él está en una situación muy desesperada. 00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:20.359 Bueno, también para ir terminando con esto, vamos 00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.180 a pasar con mensajes del público. Creo que es 00:29:23.180 --> 00:29:26.880 muy importante esto que mencionan de Cuba. For 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:29.319 all the controversy that was generated because 00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.119 of the oil, today Mexican oil gives the data. 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.079 Only what is sold to Cuba means or represents 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:43.019 0 .1 % of all Pemex. So that this data does not 00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:46.039 go unnoticed because it is a great scandal, Mexico 00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:50.240 financing communism in Cuba. Cuba pays for that 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.579 oil and it is minimal what it represents for 00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:54.059 the production of COEX. Even if it were a lot, 00:29:54.339 --> 00:29:56.539 Mexico has the right to say what it wants, even 00:29:56.539 --> 00:30:01.519 if it were a lot. The point is sovereignty. Exactly. 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.660 Let's read, comrades, the messages that we have 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.180 from our dear audience. Rebecca Aro writes to 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:10.099 us. Finally, your return. I already missed the 00:30:10.099 --> 00:30:13.250 dear and admired Nancy Flores. Gran gusto por 00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:15.569 escuchar a Pedro Miguel. Qué grato panel. Felicidades, 00:30:15.569 --> 00:30:18.450 Macio Sárez. Ahí está el primer aplauso para 00:30:18.450 --> 00:30:21.329 la mesa. Sara Reyes nos dice, buenas noches. 00:30:21.329 --> 00:30:23.890 Qué gusto ver esta mesa de análisis en el que 00:30:23.890 --> 00:30:26.349 sí se informa con la verdad. Qué gusto ver las 00:30:26.349 --> 00:30:28.890 mismas caritas queridas. Muchísimas gracias, 00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:33.970 Sara Reyes. Y María Rosa L .E. nos dice, buena 00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:36.329 noche a todos. Un gusto volver a verlos y escuchar 00:30:36.329 --> 00:30:41.259 su información y análisis. Alejandro Gomez nos 00:30:41.259 --> 00:30:43.299 dice, nueva temporada, saludos a los excelentes 00:30:43.299 --> 00:30:45.940 panelistas sobre el nuevo Frente Amplio. ¿Les 00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.599 parece que proponen algo o que están promoviendo 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:51.759 a alguien? Me parece que solo ridiculizan las 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.779 luchas sociales. Pues este comentario ya nos 00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:58.099 da pie para entrar al siguiente tema, que se 00:30:58.099 --> 00:31:00.579 va a poner bastante bueno. Nos escribe también 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:02.839 Mario Eugenio Amador, buenas noches, me da gusto 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:04.700 que estén de regreso. Nosotros también estamos 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.619 muy felices de estar de regreso con... Con ustedes 00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:12.980 fue una pausa que era necesaria por las fiestas, 00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:15.680 pero ya estamos de este lado. Y finalmente Reyes 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.799 García nos escribe, felicidades a tan gratos 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.130 personajes de la mesa. Muchísimas gracias por 00:31:22.130 --> 00:31:25.029 sus comentarios. Los vamos a seguir leyendo. 00:31:25.329 --> 00:31:27.930 Vamos a pasar, si les parece, ya que estaban 00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:31.789 comentando en el chat sobre esta creación del 00:31:31.789 --> 00:31:34.450 Frente Amplio Democrático. Vamos entrando al 00:31:34.450 --> 00:31:38.150 tema porque hay mucho de dónde cortar de este 00:31:38.150 --> 00:31:41.609 desplegado que se publicó el día de ayer bajo 00:31:41.609 --> 00:31:44.849 la consigna de no a la regresión autoritaria, 00:31:44.849 --> 00:31:47.930 sí a la democracia, las libertades y los derechos. 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.480 Former intellectuals linked to Krause, Aguilar 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.799 -Camín and other profiles of that so -called 00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.680 María Rosa, surely many of you will remember 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:05.670 her. of this civil society in which a very particular 00:32:05.670 --> 00:32:07.150 character is hiding, which is Claudia X. González, 00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:09.630 they are already announcing a new conformation, 00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:12.710 a new group called Frente Amplio Democrático, 00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:16.869 and their main objective is to counteract this 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:20.569 electoral reform. And yes, it is about the return 00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:23.710 to the political arena of this group, which suffered 00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:29.730 a very strong defeat only in 2024. Pero si uno 00:32:29.730 --> 00:32:33.329 se mete a la lista de nombres que firman este 00:32:33.329 --> 00:32:37.430 desplegado, que son bastantes, pues estos señores, 00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:39.970 estas señoras que dicen defender la democracia, 00:32:39.970 --> 00:32:43.309 pues han sido protagonistas de fraudes electorales, 00:32:43.410 --> 00:32:47.309 se han beneficiado de estos fraudes y hablan 00:32:47.309 --> 00:32:50.509 de los riesgos democráticos que traerá esta reforma 00:32:50.509 --> 00:32:53.930 que tiene una particularidad todavía, que aún 00:32:53.930 --> 00:32:57.650 no la conocemos, todavía no se presenta. No suman 00:32:57.650 --> 00:33:01.490 los logotipos del PRI y del PAN, pero están más 00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:04.549 que representados con la lista que les voy a 00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:08.390 leer. Solamente son algunas firmas. Están Aurelio 00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:11.549 Nuño, Francisco Labastida, Emilio Álvarez y Casa, 00:33:11.829 --> 00:33:15.190 Edmundo Jacobo, Demetrio Zodi, Claudio X. González, 00:33:15.289 --> 00:33:18.509 César Camacho Quirós, Germán Martínez Cázares, 00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:21.549 Guadalupe Acosta Naranjo, Hildo Alfonso Guajardo, 00:33:21.829 --> 00:33:25.289 Ignacio Morales Lechuga, Jorge Castañeda, Margarita 00:33:25.289 --> 00:33:28.309 Zavala. Marco Antonio Baños, Leonardo Valdés 00:33:28.309 --> 00:33:32.809 Zurita, Vicente Fox, Rosario Robles, Rubén Aguilar. 00:33:34.150 --> 00:33:37.109 Quienes estuvieron y gozaron de los fraudes. 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:39.630 O sea, con esta lista, al ver el nombre de Fox, 00:33:39.789 --> 00:33:43.130 recordé esa declaración que este expresidente 00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:48.490 hace el 23 de septiembre de 2022, donde dice 00:33:48.490 --> 00:33:51.450 que se arrepiente de haber liberado a Andrés 00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:53.710 Manuel López Obrador del desafuero. O sea... 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:59.559 A man who attacked democracy, now signing deployments 00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:03.140 for democracy. The return, the return of this 00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:06.960 whole group. Where do we start? Let's see, I 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:11.079 really admire the persistence of these people. 00:34:11.420 --> 00:34:15.199 Because, look, they have been able to sustain 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.219 the same berrinche for seven years. I mean, if 00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:21.199 you start a berrinche at five years old, y le 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.719 sigues como ellos, cumples 12 y sigues en el 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:27.119 mismo berrinche. Porque están emberrinchados 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.760 desde que perdieron las prebendas, los privilegios, 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.719 las corruptelas, el poder, los sueldos, todo 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.119 eso. Esto por un lado. Y por otro lado, me parece 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:42.019 muy sintomático que estén estos personajes del 00:34:42.019 --> 00:34:48.099 funcionariado electoral. Mira, algo que caracterizó 00:34:48.099 --> 00:34:51.480 al periodo neoliberal es que Las elecciones fueron 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.260 convertidas en un sector de la economía. Es decir, 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:56.780 desde la reforma de Zedillo, se le inyecta un 00:34:56.780 --> 00:35:02.460 dineral a los partidos políticos, al Instituto 00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:06.760 Federal Electoral, entonces IFE, ahora INE, y 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:10.460 surgen toda una serie de empresas, de consultorías, 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:13.980 de agencias de imagen, de despachos de publicidad, 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.059 de imprentas, de revistas, de publicaciones, 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:21.869 de encuestadoras, Son un sector económico, el 00:35:21.869 --> 00:35:25.849 sector de la industria electoral. Y creo que 00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:28.349 ahí hay muchas vinculaciones. Y creo que hay 00:35:28.349 --> 00:35:33.469 una defensa de ese sector económico que se va 00:35:33.469 --> 00:35:37.389 a ver severamente perjudicado por la reforma 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:40.250 electoral, sea cual sea. Todavía no se presenta, 00:35:40.269 --> 00:35:43.170 pero lo que sí sabemos es que tiene un sentido 00:35:43.170 --> 00:35:47.949 de decir no se puede tirar tanto dinero en los 00:35:47.949 --> 00:35:51.789 procesos electorales. I say it today. What makes 00:35:51.789 --> 00:35:56.510 me more curious about these broad fronts is, 00:35:56.590 --> 00:35:58.090 first of all, that they always put a broad front 00:35:58.090 --> 00:36:00.889 on it, but also it's getting smaller and smaller. 00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:03.909 I mean, I don't know what this broad front has 00:36:03.909 --> 00:36:08.309 to offer. And you were a linguist. But also... 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:14.329 El uso de estos términos que te regresan así 00:36:14.329 --> 00:36:17.429 como a los noventas, dos miles, ¿no? Yo tengo 00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:19.510 una lista ahorita, voy a leer algunas. Sí, es 00:36:19.510 --> 00:36:20.929 buenísima. Porque ya estoy en la colección ahora, 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:24.030 ¿no? Sí, plural. O sea, hay como ciertos valores. 00:36:24.090 --> 00:36:27.329 La vez pasada hablábamos de cómo ciertos valores 00:36:27.329 --> 00:36:29.769 muy preciados de las sociedades se tienen que 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:34.110 ir también actualizando conforme a otras necesidades 00:36:34.110 --> 00:36:37.650 que también surgen, ¿no? Hablábamos en alguna 00:36:37.650 --> 00:36:40.570 ocasión del derecho a la... for example, things 00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:45.250 that necessarily change with history. In this 00:36:45.250 --> 00:36:48.429 case, I am very interested in the use, but the 00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:51.530 reiterated use of the word plural, pluralism, 00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:55.670 which is one of the, they are terms of transitology, 00:36:55.869 --> 00:36:59.349 of the time of Woldenberg, who of course is in 00:36:59.349 --> 00:37:02.829 this group, and you can see who made the statement, 00:37:03.170 --> 00:37:05.190 right? It's like the smart boy from the living 00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:08.739 room that they put him to write, surely. But 00:37:08.739 --> 00:37:12.260 this type of terms, another thing that is also 00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:16.900 not surprising is the fact that they are sung 00:37:16.900 --> 00:37:18.980 in all the parties. Well, how could they not 00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:20.920 have already lost the register? I mean, they 00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:24.039 don't even have a party, a formal platform with 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:28.820 which to launch their proposals. But well, let's 00:37:28.820 --> 00:37:32.219 go to a break and we'll be back if you want. 00:37:32.420 --> 00:37:35.340 We'll be back because we're going to extend this 00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:37.940 topic. Apenas empezando, quédense aquí en Maciosare. 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:52.059 Sigue el contenido de Canal 11 y Canal 22. Maciosare 00:37:52.059 --> 00:38:00.079 Debate público. Se ha planteado una nueva reforma 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.880 político -electoral que, lejos de fortalecer 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.809 el sistema democrático, poses clear risks of 00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.650 regression in matters of institutional autonomy, 00:38:09.650 --> 00:38:13.329 political pluralism and constitutional balances. 00:38:13.409 --> 00:38:17.769 We call for the formation of a broad democratic, 00:38:18.309 --> 00:38:21.369 plural, inclusive and national front, integrated 00:38:21.369 --> 00:38:25.170 by citizens, social organizations, academic, 00:38:25.789 --> 00:38:30.409 legal, political and civil, with the clear and 00:38:30.409 --> 00:38:34.670 immediate objective. to prevent a regressive 00:38:34.670 --> 00:38:36.889 initiative to prosper in political and electoral 00:38:36.889 --> 00:38:40.190 matters at any stage of the legislative process 00:38:40.190 --> 00:38:43.570 and to defend the democratic principles that 00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:46.550 sustain the public life of the country. What 00:38:46.550 --> 00:38:48.989 is constitutional democracy? What does democracy 00:38:48.989 --> 00:38:52.190 mean? The power of the people. Taking advantage, 00:38:52.389 --> 00:38:55.690 by the way, Lincoln was the one who opposed the 00:38:55.690 --> 00:38:58.829 war against Mexico in the United States. Because 00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:01.650 of Lincoln is the phrase, democracy is the government 00:39:01.650 --> 00:39:04.849 of the people for the people and for the people. 00:39:05.050 --> 00:39:07.869 It says, may the old regime not return. And do 00:39:07.869 --> 00:39:20.929 you know who signs? The Bastida. Gracias por 00:39:20.929 --> 00:39:23.329 continuar con nosotros en esta barra de análisis 00:39:23.329 --> 00:39:26.090 de los medios públicos. Estamos hablando sobre 00:39:26.090 --> 00:39:29.929 el regreso de los abajo firmantes, esta creación 00:39:29.929 --> 00:39:32.650 del Frente Amplio Democrático que va contra una 00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:35.130 reforma electoral que todavía no conocemos, pero 00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:37.659 de la que ya están alertando. Corto. Let's go. 00:39:37.820 --> 00:39:39.920 Well, it's very funny. When I heard this about 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:42.860 a broad, democratic front, I thought of this 00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:45.739 old joke about the Holy Roman Empire, which was 00:39:45.739 --> 00:39:49.519 neither Holy nor Empire, and much less Roman. 00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:53.239 It was Germanic. So you just said, what does 00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:54.480 it have to do with democracy? What does it have 00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.780 to do with a broad front? But this is only the 00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.340 most recent of a long list of that kind of anodyne 00:40:01.340 --> 00:40:04.219 names that sound like ONGs. Everyone sounds like 00:40:04.219 --> 00:40:06.519 ONGs because these people come from this world, 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:08.960 the ONGs financed by the United States. That's 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:11.500 their world, right? So we have names like Sí 00:40:11.500 --> 00:40:14.199 por México, Sí o Danos a Rescatar Nación, remember 00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.989 that? Unidos, Sociedad Civil México, México Unido, 00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:22.630 Va por México, Frente Cívico, Somos México, etc. 00:40:23.570 --> 00:40:27.989 All those names created by public relations companies 00:40:27.989 --> 00:40:34.070 that have this stuff of ONG -ism. And this is 00:40:34.070 --> 00:40:36.809 notorious on the one hand, and on the other, 00:40:37.070 --> 00:40:42.510 just this point that this word of Abajo Firmante 00:40:42.510 --> 00:40:45.539 has become a joke, lexically. It tells you a 00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:47.920 lot, right? Because it's the idea that they are 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:50.539 going to do politics from their comfortable departments 00:40:50.539 --> 00:40:53.679 in Mexico City, signing bills that no one reads. 00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:56.699 When you really do politics, you go to the territory, 00:40:56.900 --> 00:40:58.719 right? As the president said in those days in 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:00.500 San Quentin, you have to go to the territory. 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.400 These people don't want to go to the territory 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.099 or really create a real movement. These people 00:41:05.099 --> 00:41:07.739 want to stay here, sign deployments as important 00:41:07.739 --> 00:41:10.739 people, trusting that their friends in the corporate 00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:14.039 media are going to make notes about it. And that's 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.940 it. And that's where they're trying to get into 00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:20.300 something. And beware, if they're opposing something 00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:24.639 even before it exists, the risk is that they're 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.579 going to actually burn their cartridge. Because 00:41:27.579 --> 00:41:29.199 it's going to give the impression that they're 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.380 just opposing because they're opposing. Because 00:41:31.380 --> 00:41:33.920 there is still no proposal, there is still no 00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:37.280 project. So now it's going to appear like the 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:43.199 old wolf's suit. And then when the project finally 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:45.099 comes out, any subsequent proposal is going to 00:41:45.099 --> 00:41:47.179 appear a little serious. Because they were already 00:41:47.179 --> 00:41:49.679 opposing each other from before. That's the problem 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:53.760 when you burn your cartridge too early. Well, 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.800 it strikes me. a moment of this deployment where 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:00.699 they say that there will no longer be a possibility 00:42:00.699 --> 00:42:04.500 of alternation, that is to say that they clearly 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:09.780 give, let's say, or reveal that in the background 00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:11.679 they want to continue controlling the electoral 00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:15.559 institutions, that is, they say that the legitimacy 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:17.900 and even the autonomy of the INE are going to 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:20.619 be lost because, that is, for them what it represents 00:42:20.619 --> 00:42:23.139 is to have the control of that institution in 00:42:23.139 --> 00:42:26.940 particular. and from this it is striking that 00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:31.940 José Woldenberg, Lorenzo Córdoba, Valdés Zurita, 00:42:32.059 --> 00:42:34.559 Luis Carlos Ugalde are involved again. Who are 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.579 these characters? First, they are the ones who 00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:42.260 headed, since this institute was created, the 00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:46.050 IFE and then the INE. have been at the head of 00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:48.030 this electoral institution, but they are also 00:42:48.030 --> 00:42:50.889 the ones who allowed the great electoral scumbags, 00:42:51.090 --> 00:42:54.389 the frauds. In the case of José Waldenberg, who 00:42:54.389 --> 00:42:58.469 said, Violeta, the most wise child, I don't know 00:42:58.469 --> 00:43:00.809 how you mentioned it, the most intellectual, 00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:05.409 I would put it in quotes. In reality, it is this 00:43:05.409 --> 00:43:07.570 character who is also enlisted in the National 00:43:07.570 --> 00:43:09.469 University, who gives classes in the Faculty 00:43:09.469 --> 00:43:12.389 of Political Sciences, and who is actually part 00:43:12.389 --> 00:43:14.820 of the right. even if they say that they have 00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:17.539 no ideology, they were in the pink tide, they 00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:20.579 took off their citizenship mask because they 00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:22.619 have also supplanted that value of citizenship, 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.179 not only of the civil society organized, which 00:43:26.179 --> 00:43:28.039 is the one that is worth for them, those who 00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:31.039 should only have the right to vote, because they 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.980 are also classists, they are racists, we saw 00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:37.659 it perfectly with Lorenzo Córdoba himself, because 00:43:37.659 --> 00:43:40.639 in the period of Lorenzo Córdoba, sorry, of José 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:42.579 Waldenberg, what happened was that of friends. 00:43:42.730 --> 00:43:46.070 de Fox o del Pemexgate, nunca se sancionó, no 00:43:46.070 --> 00:43:48.550 se echó para atrás esa elección que fue súper 00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:52.090 cochina, lo mismo pasó después con Luis Carlos 00:43:52.090 --> 00:43:55.929 Ugalde, todo el desafuero y luego el fraude electoral, 00:43:56.269 --> 00:43:59.869 el haiga sido como haiga sido de Felipe Calderón, 00:43:59.889 --> 00:44:02.750 los dados cargados de Vicente Fox, todo lo que 00:44:02.750 --> 00:44:06.510 ya sabemos, ¿no? Esta Valdezurita que pues ahorita 00:44:06.510 --> 00:44:09.590 no lo recordamos bien, pero también dejó pasar 00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:13.010 muchas cochinadas electorales. and, well, don't 00:44:13.010 --> 00:44:16.409 tell Lorenzo Cordoba that what he didn't have 00:44:16.409 --> 00:44:18.150 enough to do the fraud is that he didn't have 00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:20.110 the support of Peña Nieto, because Peña Nieto 00:44:20.110 --> 00:44:23.829 had become the clown in the streets. So, let's 00:44:23.829 --> 00:44:26.769 see, what they want is to control the institutions 00:44:26.769 --> 00:44:30.789 to return to power, and that's why they say that 00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:33.269 there won't be space for alternation, because 00:44:33.269 --> 00:44:36.409 for them to have alternation, their only way 00:44:36.409 --> 00:44:39.840 is electoral fraud. And that is the risk. But 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:42.119 Nancy, they are against the restoration of the 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:48.039 old regimen. This is hilarious. They are the 00:44:48.039 --> 00:44:50.800 prophets of an alternation that is the denial 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:53.599 of democracy. Because, let's see, they are the 00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:56.739 PRIAN. There are characters of the PRI and the 00:44:56.739 --> 00:44:59.900 PAN. And the one who was the vizagra between 00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:02.340 the two, who was the IFE and then INE. And the 00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:05.179 oligarchy, because Claudio X is the representative 00:45:05.179 --> 00:45:06.440 of the oligarchy. And the one who joins them. 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.400 El que siempre se encarga de juntarlos, aunque 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:13.820 están juntos desde el 88, desde que Carlos Salinas 00:45:13.820 --> 00:45:16.460 y Diego Fernández de Ceballos urden ese pacto 00:45:16.460 --> 00:45:23.400 inmundo. Pero lo que tenemos es al PRIAN. But 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:29.480 they say it without ideology. Imagine. Yes, Enrique 00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:31.980 Krause also talks about a democracy without adjectives. 00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:35.360 But I don't think that's the case. That's why 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.380 it's broad, because it goes from PRI to PAN, 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.980 which are the protagonists of the alternation, 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:47.940 that they alternated with each other. But that's 00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:51.699 not democracy. That's the alternation of oligarchic 00:45:51.699 --> 00:45:56.059 mafias. And there is also his permanent defense 00:45:56.059 --> 00:46:00.659 of this term of democratic maturity, that we 00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:03.400 are in that democratic transition, that we have 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:06.619 to take care of that process that has already 00:46:06.619 --> 00:46:08.480 been extended, it is an infinite maturity, that 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.840 of our democracy, because also in all that time 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.480 that has allowed them to live very well. arguing 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:18.159 that we are always in a democratic transition, 00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:21.880 that our young democracy is barely taking its 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:26.679 first steps, they let go of an infinite amount 00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:30.880 of crap. Not only were the frauds at the national 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.039 level, I mean, the cynicism of Margarita Zavala 00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:37.239 to sign a bill in the defense of democracy when 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:38.980 she beat up the Pinos for a cynical electoral 00:46:38.980 --> 00:46:44.079 fraud that started in 2005 and that she saw the 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.059 light in 2006, but it was such a long fraud, 00:46:47.059 --> 00:46:50.360 so documented, and that she still dares to sign 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.619 a bill. The truth is that it tells us about a 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:57.710 gigantic cynicism that this panista has. Pero, 00:46:57.769 --> 00:47:00.750 o sea, no solamente en su transición democrática 00:47:00.750 --> 00:47:03.150 dejaron pasar esos fraudes, o sea, también todos 00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:05.929 los fraudes que se han visto a nivel estatal, 00:47:05.929 --> 00:47:08.809 a nivel municipal, como todos hemos convivido 00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:11.710 con, si quieren llamarlos, microfraudes, o sea, 00:47:11.730 --> 00:47:14.989 pero todo quedó como perdonado porque ellos son 00:47:14.989 --> 00:47:17.409 los conocedores de la democracia, ellos saben 00:47:17.409 --> 00:47:20.630 decir que sí es democrático y que no es democrático 00:47:20.630 --> 00:47:23.469 en este proceso, que sí puede quedar todavía 00:47:23.469 --> 00:47:26.289 resguardado bajo los brazos del INE, que es lo 00:47:26.289 --> 00:47:27.960 que se puede... de salvar, qué es lo que no, 00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:32.019 porque están errando en su diagnóstico, están 00:47:32.019 --> 00:47:35.099 todavía en su obsesión con López Obrador, como 00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:37.920 están diciendo que esta es la reforma, la ley 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.320 AMLO maduro, y no se dan cuenta que ni siquiera 00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:43.579 ya es un asunto ni un capricho de López Obrador. 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.420 An electoral reform is a demand of the people. 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:49.400 The people who were the ones who endured the 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.400 fraud of 1988, the ones who endured all the electoral 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.980 raccoons in the squares next to their homes, 00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.360 the ones who endured all these fraud modalities, 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:00.340 that the carousel, that the vote, that send me 00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:03.139 a photo, that give me your ID. It's the people 00:48:03.139 --> 00:48:08.940 who made the democracy that they still see in 00:48:08.940 --> 00:48:11.659 Siernes mature. Pero siguen obsesionados con 00:48:11.659 --> 00:48:14.119 López Obrador y por eso su diagnóstico es tan 00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:17.159 erróneo que son capaces de sumar a los hijos 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:20.300 de los fraudes a este desplegado. Es precisamente 00:48:20.300 --> 00:48:23.929 eso, Dani. Si salieron al territorio... hablar 00:48:23.929 --> 00:48:26.269 con la gente, sabría de lo que acabas de decir, 00:48:26.409 --> 00:48:29.449 de esta exigencia que viene de la gente, no firmando 00:48:29.449 --> 00:48:31.929 desplegados desde la Ciudad de México. Es precisamente 00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:34.150 eso de hacer territorio. Es por eso, es para 00:48:34.150 --> 00:48:37.289 escuchar la gente del país. Y hay dos exigencias 00:48:37.289 --> 00:48:40.130 muy importantes, muy rápidamente. El primero 00:48:40.130 --> 00:48:42.829 es el asunto de la partidocracia y el gasto en 00:48:42.829 --> 00:48:46.030 partidos, los 8 mil millones. Hay que hacerlo 00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:49.150 bien para que este luego no sea suplantado por 00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:52.929 fuentes del sector privado que pudieran manipular. 00:48:52.969 --> 00:48:58.389 But a party that lives very well with these budgets. 00:48:58.829 --> 00:49:00.650 And the other is the result of the plurinominal. 00:49:00.929 --> 00:49:04.329 That is, people are against that. It has to do 00:49:04.329 --> 00:49:05.949 with representation of minorities. In fact, I 00:49:05.949 --> 00:49:09.570 am very happy that, to calm my tacos a little 00:49:09.570 --> 00:49:11.070 bit, when we talked about this a few months ago, 00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:13.489 I talked about the possibility of keeping the 00:49:13.489 --> 00:49:16.389 plurinominal, but that people choose the plurinominal, 00:49:16.570 --> 00:49:18.909 that is, by system of list. And it seems that 00:49:18.909 --> 00:49:20.429 those are the proposals that are going to be 00:49:20.429 --> 00:49:23.019 one of the finalists there. But the point is 00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:25.179 this, if they heard this, they would know that 00:49:25.179 --> 00:49:27.019 people are tired, first of all, of the partyocracy, 00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:30.000 and secondly, they would say, I'm Plurie, what? 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.840 But they don't listen and they don't know, and 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:36.420 that's why they're totally out of the debate, 00:49:36.579 --> 00:49:39.159 or burning the cartridge in an anticipated way. 00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:41.739 We also have to remember to do a little bit of 00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:45.630 recent history. I think they are reacting to 00:49:45.630 --> 00:49:47.949 a reform that they do not yet know, but that 00:49:47.949 --> 00:49:49.829 they already intuit, because in reality this 00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:53.449 reform, or maybe they are right to think that 00:49:53.449 --> 00:49:55.110 this reform is going to be very similar to the 00:49:55.110 --> 00:49:58.349 one presented by López Obrador in 2022. The same 00:49:58.349 --> 00:50:01.820 reform that did not get a qualified majority 00:50:01.820 --> 00:50:04.920 because they themselves declared, well, these 00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:07.059 same ideologists or whatever they have behind 00:50:07.059 --> 00:50:09.219 in the parties, they declared a constitutional 00:50:09.219 --> 00:50:13.000 moratorium and they refused even to read it. 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.380 They rejected it without even having read it. 00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:20.219 However, that reform proposal that López Obrador 00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:22.780 had sent contained the reduction of the budget 00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:26.460 of political parties, the reduction of senators 00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:32.519 and deputies, and also the plurinominal lists. 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:38.039 It is the famous reform of Pablo Gómez. That 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.659 proposed reform had an acceptance, the INE did 00:50:41.659 --> 00:50:44.460 a survey, and it had a majority acceptance, it 00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:47.159 had about 87 % of approval that senators should 00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:52.000 be reduced, so there was already a popular approval 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:55.300 for that reform, and they refused to even discuss 00:50:55.300 --> 00:50:57.039 it, and since at that time there was no qualified 00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:00.820 majority, it could not be implemented. Then came 00:51:00.820 --> 00:51:05.320 the famous Plan B. The plan B was later thrown 00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:09.420 by the Supreme Court for the reasons it has deduced. 00:51:09.719 --> 00:51:12.239 And what did that lead us to? Well, to plan C, 00:51:12.340 --> 00:51:14.179 which is what we are living right now. In other 00:51:14.179 --> 00:51:16.360 words, this political reality that we have now, 00:51:16.539 --> 00:51:20.400 which is the most qualified of the governing 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:25.420 coalition in the cameras, which is the vassal 00:51:25.420 --> 00:51:28.300 vote that Claudia Sheinbaum obtained in the polls, 00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:34.519 that is called plan C. of an electoral reform 00:51:34.519 --> 00:51:38.360 that was proposed with which the people were 00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:40.860 in agreement and that the legislators decided 00:51:40.860 --> 00:51:44.099 not to approve with this same tactic of I'm not 00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:46.139 even going to read it, but I'm going to put myself 00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:49.659 against it. And here, what Pera says is a bit 00:51:49.659 --> 00:51:51.860 like what Kurt was saying, that is, they don't 00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:56.059 even have the will to listen to people. because 00:51:56.059 --> 00:51:58.300 we have to remember that those who are in Congress 00:51:58.300 --> 00:52:02.599 are popular representatives. So, from the beginning 00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:05.239 they should have listened to the people and it 00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:09.860 is even said that that first reform of López 00:52:09.860 --> 00:52:13.699 Obrador was light compared to what we now expect 00:52:13.699 --> 00:52:18.639 to be the deep reform of the Mexican state to 00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:22.289 guarantee democracy in the future. What also 00:52:22.289 --> 00:52:26.570 strikes me about this deployment is how they 00:52:26.570 --> 00:52:32.010 return to this image that we are about to lose 00:52:32.010 --> 00:52:35.329 our democratic life. Again, we are on the path 00:52:35.329 --> 00:52:39.269 of authoritarianism. We can no longer believe 00:52:39.269 --> 00:52:42.190 them. It's like what Pedro and the Wolf said. 00:52:43.610 --> 00:52:47.909 Well, they run out of ideas. And why do they 00:52:47.909 --> 00:52:49.110 run out of ideas? Because they are the same. 00:52:49.409 --> 00:52:54.170 And in fact, this is taken from a study, surely, 00:52:54.429 --> 00:52:59.170 by which they pay consultants the same as they 00:52:59.170 --> 00:53:01.610 did when they built the candidacy of Xochitl 00:53:01.610 --> 00:53:04.730 Galvez. Who are the most anti -democratic? It's 00:53:04.730 --> 00:53:07.650 them. Remember that when Xochitl Galvez, in the 00:53:07.650 --> 00:53:11.449 internals of PRI and PAN, was losing, Well, then 00:53:11.449 --> 00:53:14.489 they said, no, better now. They canceled the 00:53:14.489 --> 00:53:19.949 process because they are the most anti -democratic. 00:53:20.090 --> 00:53:23.150 I mean, what they don't like is what democracy 00:53:23.150 --> 00:53:28.289 means. Democracy means power of the people, for 00:53:28.289 --> 00:53:31.690 the people, for the people. And that's what they 00:53:31.690 --> 00:53:34.429 don't want, because also. re -reveal themselves 00:53:34.429 --> 00:53:40.409 as racists, classists, elitists, who do not respect 00:53:40.409 --> 00:53:42.869 that will of the people and it is an informed 00:53:42.869 --> 00:53:47.489 will. They do not even recognize the revolution 00:53:47.489 --> 00:53:50.050 of the consciences that we are living in this 00:53:50.050 --> 00:53:53.489 country. They are totally alien to reality and 00:53:53.489 --> 00:53:56.389 I think they have already lost this moment and 00:53:56.389 --> 00:53:59.429 what will follow is a moment of despair for them, 00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:02.480 as they had with the judicial reform. What is 00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.039 also very symptomatic, sorry to interrupt you, 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:08.599 is how there is no generational exchange in that 00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:13.159 group. Exactly. It is not extended to young people. 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:16.159 No, they did not achieve that relief. But what 00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:27.199 happened with Generation Z? No, but we're being 00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:31.320 tremendously unfair with these fathers and mothers 00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:33.340 of the homeland because, let's see, they have 00:54:33.340 --> 00:54:36.019 a very clear logic. They are exponents of the 00:54:36.019 --> 00:54:40.170 old regime. All of them. Whether it's an ONG 00:54:40.170 --> 00:54:41.769 regime, whether it's a party regime, whether 00:54:41.769 --> 00:54:43.710 it's an institutional regime. No, it's a corrupt 00:54:43.710 --> 00:54:46.510 regime. I mean, the regime of the past is a corrupt, 00:54:46.510 --> 00:54:48.550 oligarchic regime. But it's the old regime, in 00:54:48.550 --> 00:54:51.210 the expression that it is. Look, there you have 00:54:51.210 --> 00:54:54.210 Emilio, what's his name? Álvarez y Casa. Álvarez 00:54:54.210 --> 00:54:57.250 y Casa is ONG. Claudio X. González is an entrepreneur. 00:54:57.489 --> 00:54:59.710 Lorenzo Córdoba is a civil servant. Over there 00:54:59.710 --> 00:55:04.070 is Mundo Jacobo, who came out, they say, with 00:55:04.070 --> 00:55:06.309 a DINERAL from INE. No, they don't say that. 00:55:06.429 --> 00:55:10.349 They left with INE money. And there are politicians 00:55:10.349 --> 00:55:14.429 like Margarita Zavala, like Aurelio Nuño. So 00:55:14.429 --> 00:55:21.869 they are, as representatives of that old regime, 00:55:22.250 --> 00:55:26.710 they are advocating for freedom, democracy, tolerance, 00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:30.909 which characterized that old regime, which they 00:55:30.909 --> 00:55:34.739 don't want to return. Es bien coherente si lo 00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:38.719 piensan así. Sí, y yo creo que ya tenemos que 00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:41.699 ir terminando, amigos. Ese mensaje que dabas, 00:55:41.699 --> 00:55:44.980 Nancy, sobre que recuerden que son representantes 00:55:44.980 --> 00:55:47.239 populares, creo que también abarca al Partido 00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:49.699 Verde y al Partido del Trabajo, que han dado 00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:53.360 mensajes como de resistirse un poco a los posibles 00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:57.780 cambios. Entonces, creo que parte de las críticas 00:55:57.780 --> 00:55:59.920 también caerían sobre los partidos. Claro, ellos 00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:02.719 están olvidando que es un mandato popular. este 00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:06.039 momento es un mandato popular. Exacto. Pues con 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:08.579 eso cerramos. Muchísimas gracias, Nancy, Kurt, 00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:11.380 Violeta, Pedro, a todos ustedes por acompañarnos 00:56:11.380 --> 00:56:13.460 con sus mensajes. Nos vemos la siguiente semana 00:56:13.460 --> 00:56:14.440 aquí en Maciasare.