WEBVTT

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This is not gonna be a bummer of an episode.

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No, no We booked this one like eight or nine

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months ago And now we finally got to do it and

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I've been stoked on it for the entirety of that

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time This is with a guy named Mark grainy grainy.

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I always want to add another R Don't know why

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the first time I read it. I thought it said greenery.

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Yeah. Yeah He has written a Couple book series

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one is the gray man series written a lot of books

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He's written he's coming out with his 15th gray

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man book Which if you haven't read those books,

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it was turned into a movie by Netflix starring

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Ryan Gosling and Anna de Armas And also Julia

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Butters, who's the girl in Once Upon Time in

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Hollywood. Oh, the little kid. Equally acts with

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the Caprio. Right, right. So, you know, that's

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pretty impressive to hold your own with the Caprio.

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Yeah, and his Hollywood experience was better

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than a lot of authors, I think. He had a pretty

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good attitude about that. Yeah, but it was interesting

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to hear about. the transition from book to what

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actually ended up. Right, where it's like, this

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is your story, and now it's not. Yeah. It's a

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movie. And now there's like new people and shit.

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But yeah, I was looking forward to this one.

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I enjoyed it. Yeah, because you've read all these

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books. I have. I have not. But you've read all

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his books. Yeah, not his ghost -written Tom Clancy

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books. Right. But all of his books. Seven of

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those. Yeah. That's where you got to start. OK.

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But I find that... The Grey Man series out of...

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Yeah, why do you like it? Out of all the, like,

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spy thriller assassin kind of deals, like your

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Brad Thors and Jack Carrs and that kind of stuff,

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Vince Flynn, to me, The Grey Man has the best

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storytelling. Okay. And character development

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and all that? Yeah, that's part of the storytelling

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to me, is where, like, if you meet Court Gentry

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in, you know, the first book and by... Book 14,

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the last one to come out, it's a different guy.

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Like life? Yeah. And all of the people in the

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books become different people because time has

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passed. That's evidence of development. Yeah,

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and all the books have to be very... They're

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similar, but they have different tones to them,

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dependent on the story being told. Some of them,

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you're like, this is fun. And other ones, you're

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like, oh my god, this is dark. Because they deal

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with different topics. And that material gets

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pretty dark. Yeah, there's a human trafficking

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one, which is real dark. But it was interesting

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to hear about his research and his just general

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approach to writing the character, writing the

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books, balancing it with expectations versus,

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you know, how he actually wants the story to

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be told. But I enjoyed this. I got everything

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I wanted to bring up came through. I found out

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that the love interest that gets introduced for

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Court Gentry will not be killed. Well, he didn't

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promise. he took your consideration into account.

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I think at one point he said she won't be killed

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for that reason, which is because that always

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happens in these. I hope for all of our sakes

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that's true. But yeah, this is a good episode.

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I enjoyed it. I say that every time. Well, this

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time, we didn't bring up any... I wanted to bring

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up a lot of stuff from like... One Nation Under

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Blackmail book that I just read, which you should

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read. It's very disturbing. Is that your recommendation?

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Yeah, my recommendation is Whitney Webb's two

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-part series, One Nation Under Blackmail. My

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recommendation is the Grey Man series. Well,

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yeah, yours is more fun. And the Josh Duffy series.

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They cover the same things. There's a lot of

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human trafficking in this book I read as well.

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Okay. But we didn't talk about that stuff. We

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just talked about fun things. And here's another.

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There's a book a year that comes out, which is

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nuts. That's insane. This genre has an expectation

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of so many books. Is that common, too? All of

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these guys have a book a year. How do they do

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that? I don't know. A lot of them aren't particularly

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well -crafted. I like the way you handled that.

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Mark's books are well -crafted, which is why

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you know yeah as an adult man. I enjoy spy stuff

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Sure, I got these from my grandpa. Yeah, so you

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know that's ingrained into our DNA I think at

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some level is we want to see people do badass

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shit But I also like I bring up am a dick about

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the stuff I enjoy and it has to have like artistic

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merit to it and be done well And I think this

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hits both of those that meets your standards

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it meets my standards So if you hear this, Mark,

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you've met my standards. He'll be so, so relieved.

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I know, he was before this going, oh my god,

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I hope I meet this guy's standards. I hope I

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book fifteen. I've met his standards. Oh god,

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okay, what else do we have going on? This is

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that corner. It's still... Winter wonderland

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it sucks. It sucks. It's supposed to warm up.

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I guess I don't know We're We're gonna be We

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have we have new stuff coming out which I keep

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teasing but again is oh I don't know if I brought

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this up before we have custom skateboard decks

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that are coming in. I think that's a good idea.

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And those will be available on our Patreon. First,

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if they don't sell there, then they'll be available

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to the general public. But if you want one, you

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gotta get on the Patreon. You should get on the

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Patreon in general, because that's the place

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where we put all the shit we can't put on Instagram.

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And Instagram's getting worse. Yeah, dude, the

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censorship on there is going nuts. I got censored

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for talking about Manson in a comment. Not a

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comment, in a message. That's weird. Yeah. That's

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weird. My buddy was asking me about something,

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and I was talking about Bobby Bucele and shit.

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And I sent it to him, and I was like, he's one

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of the Manson guys. And then later that day,

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they were like, something in your messages was

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wrong. That's weird. I was like, oh, good. That's

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creepy. That's invasive. It's not great. It's

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not great. And that started happening after they

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instituted AI to read all your messages. So,

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you know, we have no privacy. No, it's not great.

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It's not great But if you want to see you should

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read that one nation under blackmail book and

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you'll realize it's even worse than you think

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if you want to see tits and ass You should join

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our patreon. That's more fun. I Also do post

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stuff about like Manson and shit on there But

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other than that, you know, we we got custom lighters

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that are gonna be out Working on yeah working

00:07:11.779 --> 00:07:14.579
on you know, like ash trays and shit that have

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cool pictures in them. You know what I'm saying?

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It's a good idea and then we have a new drop

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of Hat hoodie and shirt that that all match come

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soon So yes, I mean stay tuned to that when we

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we're also gonna be developing certain parts

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for your bike. Yeah, I like this idea a lot.

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So, you know, that'll be coming out. Trying to

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angle at new, old -looking shit. It's hard to

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find stuff new that looks like it's from 1978.

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And if you find the stuff in 1978, oftentimes

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it's like 600 bucks. Yeah. You know, I saw an

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oil tank the other day. I have the exact oil

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tank. I bought it for $50. And it was $600. Yeah,

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there's a big difference. But it was black instead

00:08:05.649 --> 00:08:09.810
of chrome. I would prefer it. Not $600 to prefer

00:08:09.810 --> 00:08:15.089
it. Well, it'd be $550. But anyway, enjoy this

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episode. I did. And if you haven't listened to

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or read these books, I keep saying listen to

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because my grandpa bought all of them on Audible.

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So that's how I ingested them. I listen to a

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lot on Audible because I work. Yeah, it's like

00:08:30.139 --> 00:08:33.000
a podcast. Except without people stuttering.

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Or technical difficulties. Or blank air. You

00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:42.299
should check out both of his book series, Grey

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Man. There's about to be 15 of those to go through.

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And then the Josh Duffy series, where there's

00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.379
two right now. They're different, but they're

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both enjoyable. I'm going to start reading them

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as soon as I finish this biography on Alan Dulles.

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That sounds fun. None of this stuff is fun. Yeah,

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we have a not fun episode coming out soon, too

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So alternative Manson theories so to speak stay

00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:19.149
tuned for that Enjoy Well, yeah, thank you again

00:09:19.149 --> 00:09:21.169
for doing this I actually got into your book

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series because I'm on my grandpa's audible. Oh,

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yeah he Towards the end of his life his eyes

00:09:28.899 --> 00:09:30.820
were going so he only I could like listen to

00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:34.240
stuff. Yeah, and he actually was the one that

00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.740
told me was like you got to check this out and

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I've been listening to Jack Carr and Brad Thor

00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:42.919
stuff and I listened to yours and I was like,

00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:49.980
oh this is very good I'm glad he introduced you

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to me. That's that's terrific. Yeah, it's a it's

00:09:53.019 --> 00:09:56.490
a nice memory now But one of the things I like

00:09:56.490 --> 00:10:00.350
about your book series is that I learn a lot

00:10:00.350 --> 00:10:03.629
of stuff about places that I'm not aware of.

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In the Duffy one, there's the Sinaloa cartel

00:10:07.629 --> 00:10:10.909
going up the mountain. And then there's another

00:10:10.909 --> 00:10:14.490
cartel one in the Grey Man series. But it seems

00:10:14.490 --> 00:10:17.870
like you do a lot of research. Can you tell us

00:10:17.870 --> 00:10:19.669
a little bit about how you actually get all the

00:10:19.669 --> 00:10:21.590
knowledge to put these characters in the places

00:10:21.590 --> 00:10:24.179
that they are? You know, different ways in different

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books, but I'll tell you specifically about Armored,

00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.000
the Josh Duffy book. And I've used this many

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times in my career. There is this great benefit

00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.779
to the fact that there are idiots out there in

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the world that'll go places and do things that

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no sane person would do. And I hate to say idiot

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because I'm going to say the guy's name, but

00:10:47.220 --> 00:10:50.580
I mean, so there's travel writers. I mean, man,

00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:55.860
I've read travel. blogs of like a college student

00:10:55.860 --> 00:10:58.899
who is like, hey, I put on some flip flops and

00:10:58.899 --> 00:11:02.500
went into the Colombian drug cartel area and

00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:04.759
met these guys and partied all weekend. And you're

00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.590
like, You'll probably die doing that, but if

00:11:07.590 --> 00:11:09.950
you come back and write a blog about it, a writer

00:11:09.950 --> 00:11:12.710
like me can read that and, you know, like and

00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:15.370
expand on it. But there was actually a very good

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writer and I don't mean to call him an idiot.

00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:19.350
I just think this, you know, I would never do

00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:21.710
this guy named Richard Grant, who is a British

00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:25.850
guy who, you know, just maybe he thought the

00:11:25.850 --> 00:11:28.559
world is just a better place than. people make

00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:32.179
it out to be. So he just decided, you know, what's

00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:34.899
all this, you know, nonsense about drug cartels

00:11:34.899 --> 00:11:37.399
taking over Western Mexico? I'm going to go up

00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.480
there and, you know, have a good time. And, and,

00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:42.100
you know, I guess he was, you know, a young writer.

00:11:42.100 --> 00:11:44.799
And to be honest, and wanted to get his career

00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.480
going and was like, Hey, this ought to work.

00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:52.919
And he went up to the Sierra Madre Occidentalis,

00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.179
where there were a lot of, and this was like

00:11:55.179 --> 00:11:59.129
in the late 2000s. So it was like, You know Almost

00:11:59.129 --> 00:12:01.429
20 years ago now, but it was really, really bad

00:12:01.429 --> 00:12:03.470
then. I mean, you know, there hasn't been a good

00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:07.809
time there. Drug cartel wise, I guess, probably

00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.649
since the 70s or 60s. But he went up there and

00:12:11.649 --> 00:12:15.070
he wrote this this book called God's Middle Finger,

00:12:15.470 --> 00:12:17.730
which is what they what they call the devil's

00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:21.309
spine up there. And, you know, like, what do

00:12:21.309 --> 00:12:23.490
you think happened to this British guy who went

00:12:23.490 --> 00:12:25.909
up there with just a smile on his face and, you

00:12:25.909 --> 00:12:28.470
know, a pair of boots and a cowboy hat? Like,

00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:30.870
I mean, he almost got killed. You know, he had

00:12:30.870 --> 00:12:33.230
all had these amazing like cool things happen

00:12:33.230 --> 00:12:35.210
to him. But I mean, all this like real danger.

00:12:35.549 --> 00:12:39.049
So I just read that book one day without even

00:12:39.049 --> 00:12:41.809
trying to write a novel. But I, I had an idea

00:12:41.809 --> 00:12:44.429
about writing about the civilian military contracting

00:12:44.429 --> 00:12:48.039
world because I had done a lot of firearms training

00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.840
around, you know, with those types of guys. And

00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:53.519
so I kind of put two and two together. And I

00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.460
read that book, God's Middle Finger. And I was

00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:57.340
like, man, I would never go there. I've been

00:12:57.340 --> 00:13:00.100
to Mexico and, and for ballistic that third gray

00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:04.639
man novel. Right. My objective was to get close

00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.500
to where it was scary, but not to get where it

00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:11.320
was scary. But It was scarier than, you know,

00:13:11.379 --> 00:13:14.200
like where I went. So I didn't go into Sinaloa.

00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.899
I went into Nayarit, which is south of Sinaloa,

00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:19.059
which has Puerto Vallarta in it, which sounds

00:13:19.059 --> 00:13:21.139
perfectly safe. But I was in the very northern

00:13:21.139 --> 00:13:24.580
part of that state and just south of Sinaloa.

00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.080
And when I was there, you felt like you were

00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.039
in the middle of a civil war because, you know,

00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.740
not even like the. You know, the drug cartels,

00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.970
I mean, the Mexican Marines had. stops everywhere

00:13:36.970 --> 00:13:39.169
and they wanted to know what this, you know,

00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:43.389
solo guy in his, you know, military age male

00:13:43.389 --> 00:13:45.269
with a backpack, you know, walking around by

00:13:45.269 --> 00:13:48.090
himself, American guy was doing because it didn't

00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:50.070
make a lot of sense. It wasn't a touristy place

00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:54.230
I went. So that was my own that that was my own

00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:56.870
nonsense. But no, and I read that guy's book

00:13:56.870 --> 00:13:58.970
about what it was like up there. And, you know,

00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:02.190
I'm like, I'm really glad that dude lived so

00:14:02.190 --> 00:14:05.460
I can write a book. But a lot of my research

00:14:05.460 --> 00:14:07.179
comes from stuff like that because it's like,

00:14:07.419 --> 00:14:09.460
you know, you can find somebody that's gone anywhere

00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:13.340
or done anything. Yeah, I was in Guatemala one

00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:15.919
time in an area where up in the northern part

00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.039
of Guatemala and they're like, it's really dangerous

00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.679
and people get robbed there all the time. So

00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.679
I've like bought a machete. You can't have a

00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:25.100
gun there. So I'm like, I got a big machete.

00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:27.279
Do I know how to use a machete? I mean, you know,

00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.080
from movies. Yeah, I've never really wielded

00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.419
one, but I was like walking through this jungle

00:14:32.419 --> 00:14:36.840
area and I met a 24 year old American female

00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:39.519
nurse who was kind of traveling by herself. And

00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.450
I'm going like, no matter how cool and badass,

00:14:42.629 --> 00:14:45.129
I think I am. You know, there's somebody who's

00:14:45.129 --> 00:14:47.809
either ignorant or more badass. And sometimes

00:14:47.809 --> 00:14:51.110
it's hard to tell the difference. Right. I mean,

00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:56.730
that, uh, that book, um, armored, uh, first of

00:14:56.730 --> 00:14:59.590
all, ballistic to me was one of the two gray

00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:01.850
man books that come stand out when I'm like,

00:15:01.870 --> 00:15:05.450
Oh, those were like rough, you know, like, uh,

00:15:06.079 --> 00:15:09.059
And I can't remember the name, but the human

00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:12.179
trafficking in the Balkans. One minute out. Yeah.

00:15:12.379 --> 00:15:15.279
Yeah. That was the darkest one. It really was.

00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:17.940
Yeah. I started writing that and I was like,

00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:19.940
what am I getting myself into? You know, that's

00:15:19.940 --> 00:15:22.799
kind of went into it unaware of like, and I was

00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:25.120
like, how do you make this a tone that, you know,

00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.460
like is entertainment, but at the same time,

00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:31.279
it's so God awful. Yeah. I mean, I'm into, I'm

00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.320
into some dark. Stuff generally, uh, the last

00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.019
like six books I've read have all been about

00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:40.100
Manson or son of Sam and all that. Yeah. It's

00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:42.539
fascinating. Yeah, it is. But even that book

00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.139
made me be like, Oh Jesus Christ. Like every,

00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:47.659
every couple of minutes. Well, I did. So when

00:15:47.659 --> 00:15:50.620
I wrote ballistic, I did a ton of research on

00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:55.049
the cartels obviously, and I mean, there's nothing

00:15:55.049 --> 00:15:58.129
in there that's not a version of something that

00:15:58.129 --> 00:16:00.330
I read about. So there's a scene in Ballistic

00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:04.230
where a guy's face is sewn onto a soccer ball.

00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:08.389
And that really happened. That was that was El

00:16:08.389 --> 00:16:11.629
Chapo's guys. That was Cartel Del Golfo, I think,

00:16:11.769 --> 00:16:15.669
or one of the T one of the groups. Just in a

00:16:15.669 --> 00:16:20.200
little And they, they showed a guy's face in

00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.580
my book. The soccer ball was then kicked over

00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:26.240
a Hacienda wall to where the gray man was just

00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:28.179
as a way to scare them or to show that they got

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:31.480
his friend. Uh, in reality, the guy's face was

00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:33.919
sewn on a soccer ball and that was put in a paper

00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.059
bag and that was left on his mother's, uh, front

00:16:37.059 --> 00:16:41.700
porch. So You know, it is funny, Don Winslow,

00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:44.519
who's a fantastic writer. He wrote the series,

00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.299
the border series. He wrote a book called the

00:16:47.299 --> 00:16:49.919
border and one called the cartel and another

00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:53.840
one. And, um, and in his book, He has a guy getting

00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.159
his face sewn on a soccer ball and it looks like

00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:58.299
I'm ripping off another author, but it's like,

00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.419
we're both kind of ripping off real life. It's

00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:02.240
like, there's no way a guy can write about the

00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:04.339
cartel who reads that bit of information and

00:17:04.339 --> 00:17:06.619
doesn't put it in a book, you know, as, as like,

00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:08.960
let me just show you the depravity that's going

00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.500
on. I mean, there's a lot of people in my generation.

00:17:13.639 --> 00:17:15.960
not including me because like I'm interested

00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.200
in generally old stuff. And if I look at crime

00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.940
scene photos, I can look at the black Dahlia

00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:22.720
because it's black and white and not super high

00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.220
resolution. Yeah. But like new stuff, not a fucking

00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:28.680
chance that horrifies me. Right. But there's

00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.720
a lot of people in my generation that 12, 13

00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.220
years old were watching cartel videos. Jesus.

00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:38.259
And it's everything that they're doing is worse

00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:41.230
than basically Anything anyone else has ever

00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.430
done in the past? Yeah Yeah, it is there's a

00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:47.809
level of cruelty and it's just it's a way to

00:17:47.809 --> 00:17:52.990
I guess You know Keep people in line, you know,

00:17:53.190 --> 00:17:56.289
but I mean, you know, there's Not to get too

00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.390
awful into it. But you know, they they would

00:17:58.390 --> 00:18:02.029
basically Stop buses and say, okay, you guys

00:18:02.029 --> 00:18:04.450
gonna join the cartel and anybody who says no

00:18:04.450 --> 00:18:06.490
you guys fight to the death we'll see who wins

00:18:06.490 --> 00:18:09.799
and And, you know, just make these kids, you

00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.640
know, fight to the death and just just horrible

00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.640
stuff out there. But yes, I would rather research

00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:17.759
stuff that's like happier. But then, you know,

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:19.680
you're writing thrillers and you're trying to

00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.660
I try to write about stuff that's really going

00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.059
on in the world. And so, you know, sometimes

00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:27.140
when you dig into it, it's like the fun aspect

00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:29.940
to be in a writer is like me doing research and

00:18:29.940 --> 00:18:32.039
going like a year from now, I get to tell everybody

00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:33.940
about that. You know, like, you know, it's just

00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:35.460
sort of like, you know, when you're reading something,

00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.250
you go like, oh, my God. Do people know about

00:18:38.250 --> 00:18:40.970
this? And, you know, I kind of have like a megaphone,

00:18:40.970 --> 00:18:43.150
I can shout it out, you know, and a lot of times,

00:18:43.150 --> 00:18:45.930
I'm sure people think I just make it up. And

00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:48.089
obviously, I do make stuff up. But like that

00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:50.410
stuff about the soccer ball is like, I hope I

00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:53.869
could not make that up. I mean, someone did for

00:18:53.869 --> 00:18:56.910
real. Yeah, yeah, we get that we both we've both

00:18:56.910 --> 00:19:00.170
been studying some researching some grisly things

00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:03.190
lately. How do you deal with that? I was thinking

00:19:03.190 --> 00:19:06.069
about this the other night. How do you deal with

00:19:06.069 --> 00:19:08.890
that? Well, keeping yourself sane. Like, how

00:19:08.890 --> 00:19:13.029
do you study cartels for a year? And you know,

00:19:13.029 --> 00:19:17.990
dar is dark in the cell. Yeah, I guess, you know,

00:19:18.009 --> 00:19:21.390
it does mean, you know, like, it, you kind of

00:19:21.390 --> 00:19:23.690
can lose faith in humanity here and there. But

00:19:23.690 --> 00:19:26.329
then you just think, yeah, but then you just

00:19:26.329 --> 00:19:31.349
see the nation. It's right. Yeah, yeah. And I

00:19:31.349 --> 00:19:33.190
do think it's a tough thing and probably something

00:19:33.190 --> 00:19:36.210
that, you know, you should have. evaluate about

00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:38.130
yourself every now and then and check in and

00:19:38.130 --> 00:19:40.829
go like, Hey, am I, am I okay? But you just,

00:19:40.829 --> 00:19:43.349
you just see like the, you know, the really goodness

00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.750
of people, you know, like I do a lot of research

00:19:45.750 --> 00:19:48.150
on things that are going on in, in Ukraine that

00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:51.029
are really awful. And then I also, you know,

00:19:51.109 --> 00:19:54.230
I donate to some charities where, you know, Americans

00:19:54.230 --> 00:19:56.910
and Brits and whatever go over there and just

00:19:56.910 --> 00:20:00.349
risk their lives, you know, uh, as first responders

00:20:00.349 --> 00:20:04.390
and, and, you know, bomb disposal people and

00:20:04.390 --> 00:20:06.970
all that. And you go like, wow, you know, there's

00:20:06.970 --> 00:20:10.230
there are amazing human beings. And I guess as

00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:12.410
long as there's a lot more amazing human beings

00:20:12.410 --> 00:20:15.410
as there are, you know, the the monsters out

00:20:15.410 --> 00:20:17.869
in the world, you know, maybe we'll continue

00:20:17.869 --> 00:20:21.150
on as a species. But, you know, I think it's

00:20:21.150 --> 00:20:23.569
good to talk about the things that are out there,

00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:25.690
because I do think people are just completely

00:20:25.690 --> 00:20:28.349
oblivious about a lot of stuff in the world.

00:20:28.369 --> 00:20:30.750
And you guys have probably read stuff and gone

00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:34.369
like You're one out of one out of 100 ,000 people

00:20:34.369 --> 00:20:36.509
that are aware that this happens and maybe more

00:20:36.509 --> 00:20:39.009
of us should should be aware to help shine a

00:20:39.009 --> 00:20:41.769
light on it. Yeah, you're in an interesting position

00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:44.309
because you can change minds with stories more

00:20:44.309 --> 00:20:48.980
than like logical arguments and yeah. Yeah, and,

00:20:49.059 --> 00:20:51.640
you know, and my books are always entertainment.

00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:54.299
And I feel like the second that I feel like,

00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:57.140
you know, my my book is there to change somebody's

00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:59.559
mind is the minute that they'll really start

00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.160
to suck. You know, it's like I write books, I

00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.440
mean, for myself as the reader that I am and

00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.339
really that I was long before I was a writer.

00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:10.180
And it's like, if I think it's cool, you know,

00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:12.460
it's like, I think I'd like to read that in a

00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:14.460
book. And that's what I want to do. But at the

00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:16.519
same time, you know, as you as you're doing research,

00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:19.539
you're going like, Wow, it's amazing that everybody

00:21:19.539 --> 00:21:23.279
brags about all the sanctions we have against

00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:29.839
Russia, but this American company is helping

00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.859
to build the Shaheed drones that are manufactured

00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:36.500
in Russia. It's an Iranian weapon, but they're

00:21:36.500 --> 00:21:40.839
manufactured in Russia. Talking about that kind

00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:42.599
of stuff is like you do kind of want to shine

00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:44.779
a light on it. And I'm sure people that have

00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:46.200
their head in the sand are like, he doesn't know

00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:48.400
what he's talking about or you know, he's whatever

00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.900
he is. But at the same time, you know, you can't

00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:53.099
get that you can't get through to everybody.

00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.319
You just, you know, if you if you believe in

00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.039
something to be true, then it's okay to talk

00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:01.839
about it. And, you know, again, the books are

00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.140
here to be entertainment. But you know, The the

00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:08.380
the world's a big crazy place and we can't like

00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:11.140
turn our heads away from the complexities sometime

00:22:11.140 --> 00:22:14.779
And the style of book that you're writing which

00:22:14.779 --> 00:22:18.700
is like entertainment thriller I think lends

00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:21.259
itself to kind of like people that aren't necessarily

00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:23.839
willing to go seek out information Still want

00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.440
payment and then they're not even realizing that

00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:29.660
it's being taken in sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, that's

00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:34.440
exactly what happened to me. So I I was 19 years

00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:39.440
old when Patriot games with Tom Clancy book came

00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.240
out or and I'd heard about Clancy because he'd

00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.420
written Red October and I think Red Storm Rising

00:22:44.420 --> 00:22:47.960
came out, but I never read fiction I like to

00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:50.579
read nonfiction and I studied political science

00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:53.440
and international relations and I You know, I've

00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.240
read everything about what was going on in Central

00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.259
America because there was a really dark times

00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:00.119
with like death squads and stuff. This is be

00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:04.250
that the 80s mid 80s and I guess, Patriot Games

00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:08.410
came out in 87, and I was 19. And everybody been

00:23:08.410 --> 00:23:10.329
talking about Clancy, but I'd been reading about

00:23:10.329 --> 00:23:13.450
the Irish Republican Army. And I saw that his

00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:16.569
book was about the IRA. And I said, you know

00:23:16.569 --> 00:23:18.450
what, I'm going to give this book a chance, even

00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:21.210
though it's fiction. And, you know, it's not

00:23:21.210 --> 00:23:24.109
real. It's just pretend. And I read it. I read

00:23:24.109 --> 00:23:27.529
it. And I was like, This is incredible that I

00:23:27.529 --> 00:23:30.250
am so entertained and I'm learning so much and

00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:33.529
I'm getting information without having to read.

00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:36.089
whatever, you know, US News and World Report

00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:37.890
or The Economist or whatever you would read back

00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:40.650
then to get to get information. And I was like,

00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:42.730
Oh, my God, this is I didn't even know this was

00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:45.230
a thing. And so then I started reading the other

00:23:45.230 --> 00:23:47.309
Clancy books that were out there. And then Nelson

00:23:47.309 --> 00:23:49.970
DeMille and Frederick Forsyth. And then you I

00:23:49.970 --> 00:23:52.410
got into other stuff. And it was it was literally

00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:56.690
that realization that like, I can be so entertained

00:23:56.690 --> 00:24:00.509
and be so into a story and also, you know, get

00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:03.940
that feel of places I've never been and and you

00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:06.400
know things I don't know about because I did

00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.519
know a lot about the IRA from reading nonfiction,

00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.400
but like it really Grounded me in a cool way

00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.420
to read about it in a novel Yeah, I mean your

00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:19.000
last book for the gray man series. It took place

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:22.359
in like Russian prisoner camps Yeah, you know,

00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:27.220
that's not a thing I have any knowledge on I

00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:32.519
do now, you know, but I spent a while in in that

00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.839
world and even the descriptions of like day -to

00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:39.799
-day life. It was bumming me out because I was

00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.059
imagining myself in there and I was like it's

00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:44.480
never gonna come up like it's not gonna I don't

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.019
like this why am I why am I stressed out about

00:24:47.019 --> 00:24:49.500
this? I don't have to deal with Russian ones

00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:52.559
at least. Yeah you're right right. But you know

00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.279
I mean that and like my dad got into reading

00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:57.339
the first time because he read the French Connection

00:24:57.339 --> 00:25:00.339
which is the same thing where that happened.

00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:03.019
You know that's based on real cops in a real

00:25:03.019 --> 00:25:06.259
heroin case. Yeah, and I think a lot of times

00:25:06.259 --> 00:25:10.660
good entertainment at least Leads people other

00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:13.700
places in their life and they oh, yeah Kind of

00:25:13.700 --> 00:25:15.779
understand the world in a better way once they

00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.099
are done with that entertainment, right? right

00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:20.359
and I you know back back when it was safe to

00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.720
do so I went to Russia and and spent a decent

00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.539
amount of you know a few couple weeks there and

00:25:27.289 --> 00:25:29.829
And, but, and I remember just being sort of like

00:25:29.829 --> 00:25:31.690
surprised that it wasn't like what I thought

00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:33.769
it was going to be. Like they still had hammer

00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:36.470
and sickles all over the place. They had like

00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:40.069
this sort of very militant, like just picture

00:25:40.069 --> 00:25:42.369
a militant version of the boy scouts and girl

00:25:42.369 --> 00:25:44.509
scouts. I've forgotten the name. It's I use it

00:25:44.509 --> 00:25:47.069
in the book, but it's the, you know, like the

00:25:47.069 --> 00:25:49.910
national youth army or whatever. And they would

00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:52.269
stand on the street corners to get, you know,

00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:54.190
charity, you know, like get money or whatever,

00:25:54.349 --> 00:25:57.509
I guess for. whatever cause and they just had

00:25:57.509 --> 00:25:59.950
these like really angry faces and you know, they

00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:02.130
give you like these 14 year olds giving you these

00:26:02.130 --> 00:26:03.970
like each shit looks and you're going like, what

00:26:03.970 --> 00:26:08.150
is this? And then I was there in 2013 and 2014

00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:12.069
they invaded Ukraine and obviously in 2022 they

00:26:12.069 --> 00:26:15.029
did the big invasion. And I just remember going

00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:18.359
like, wow, this is interesting. And And when

00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.759
I wanted to write that book that involved the,

00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:23.299
uh, the gulag system, it's still going on in

00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:26.299
Russia. It is again, you're doing the research

00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:28.339
and you're going like, this is just, you know,

00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:30.500
do people know about this? This is really fascinating

00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:32.900
and it's so bleak and it's so depressing. And

00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:35.740
I'm like, okay, I'm, I got to find a happy ending

00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:38.240
in here, but it's going to be, this is going

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.119
to be a challenge, but it was interesting to

00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.119
do. Well, you know, when I was 14 or 15, I went

00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:48.079
to Kazakhstan. Uh, And it was a very odd situation.

00:26:48.220 --> 00:26:51.099
My mom ran a film festival and one of the films

00:26:51.099 --> 00:26:53.759
in it was a Kazakh film. It was financed by an

00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:56.539
oil like billionaire who was best friends with

00:26:56.539 --> 00:26:59.759
their president dictator. We got taken to Kazakhstan

00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.099
on that guy's money, which is really odd. Right.

00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:07.160
And where the cities itself seem like during

00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:08.960
the day it's like Soviet Russia and at night

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:13.039
it's like Dubai, which is very odd. But The mob

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.299
is everywhere. The remnants of the Soviet Union

00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:17.680
is everywhere. And like we were in a restaurant

00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.960
at 12 o 'clock, nice restaurant, totally empty.

00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:22.079
Like two years ago, I was like the guy bought

00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.339
it up. He bought the restaurant out, you know.

00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:28.079
But that was my first like awakening to be in

00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:30.920
like the world is not like America. Yeah, yeah,

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.720
yeah. And what you experienced in Kazakhstan

00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.200
in whatever year that was was probably like Moscow

00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.000
in the 90s or whatever. You know, like it's like

00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.599
the, you know, the, the mob, the, the oligarchs

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.859
and the Siloviki, which is the sort of the intelligence

00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:51.279
guys that are connected with the mob that actually

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.039
run, run the countries in, in, in, in Russia

00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:57.960
or whatever. It's like, it is, you know, it's,

00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:01.279
uh, whatever you call it, it's, it's, uh, it's,

00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:03.859
it's just, it's a criminal state of being over

00:28:03.859 --> 00:28:07.220
there. Uh, we landed at like 11 o 'clock at night

00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:09.500
and the customs people weren't letting us in.

00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.019
And my mom made a phone call and then the customs

00:28:12.019 --> 00:28:14.460
people got a phone call and then it was all fine.

00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.980
Right. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was

00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:21.119
like, that's not how that flies in the world.

00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:25.660
You know, I don't know. Maybe we maybe we have

00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:30.240
some money there. Yeah. But when it with your

00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.859
books, right? Like to me, there's a lot of types

00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:39.160
of spy assassin thriller out there. and most

00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:42.740
of them don't have like, I don't want to talk

00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:45.400
shit about anyone, but like character development

00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.799
and general like writing tactics in them. And

00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:51.460
something that I appreciate about your books

00:28:51.460 --> 00:28:54.519
is that, you know, court gentry or Zach Hightower,

00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:58.160
Zacharova, they're vastly different from the

00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:02.539
first time you met them. You're actually engaged

00:29:02.539 --> 00:29:05.500
in the individual people's plot lines and growth.

00:29:06.360 --> 00:29:08.440
Is that something that you did actively? Where'd

00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:12.259
you learn to write? Well, I appreciate that I

00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:14.900
mean so where I learned to write honestly was

00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:18.140
by reading novels in this genre like I never

00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:21.200
took writing classes or anything like that I

00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.380
You know, I guess you have to have some aptitude

00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:27.849
for it. But at the same time You know, I just

00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:30.650
I kind of just read like when I think of my 20s,

00:29:30.650 --> 00:29:34.009
I would That whole decade. I always had like

00:29:34.009 --> 00:29:36.869
six books going at the same time and you know,

00:29:36.869 --> 00:29:41.390
and I really didn't Really focus on writing till

00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:43.609
my mid 30s and and you know to where I wanted

00:29:43.609 --> 00:29:46.750
to get published But you know, I dreamt of it

00:29:46.750 --> 00:29:48.750
before that but I just read and read and read

00:29:48.750 --> 00:29:51.349
and so You know, i'm sure I made all the mistakes

00:29:51.349 --> 00:29:54.569
that anybody else made as I was writing. It just

00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:57.539
took me You know, I just got that out of my system

00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:59.119
and then wrote another book and wrote another

00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.500
book And so the the gray man was my fourth finished

00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:04.440
manuscript. It was the first to get published

00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.240
So I think I I'd ironed out a lot of kinks by

00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:12.500
then But you know, I the reason I have character

00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:14.819
development in my books I think is more than

00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:16.980
anything else is like I'm just obsessed with

00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:21.079
not writing the same book twice and not having,

00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.259
you know, it feel the same way. And from the

00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:26.500
first book, Quartz had a lot of, Quargentree's

00:30:26.500 --> 00:30:28.579
had a lot of like vulnerabilities and I never

00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:31.599
wanted to make him like a superhero. I mean,

00:30:31.619 --> 00:30:34.119
he does superhero shit, like obviously. Sometimes

00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:36.559
these people get out of situations where you're

00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.079
like, no. Yeah. In a lot of these books. Exactly.

00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.880
You know, there can be sort of a two dimensional,

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.180
like your hero is this square jawed tough guy.

00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:48.740
You know this is going to beat his way out of

00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:50.640
things and those can actually be really good

00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:54.900
stories But I mean for me to be a writer of 15

00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:58.579
books where the hero is You know just smashes

00:30:58.579 --> 00:31:01.819
his way out of every problem the same way it's

00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:04.180
just I don't think I would I could keep that

00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:06.359
going it's like I like that there's some you

00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.619
know I like that you can pick up every gray man

00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:10.799
book and and read it on its own you don't have

00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:12.980
to read them in order but if you do read them

00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:15.920
in order you do like you said you see the characters

00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.599
change and develop and in the first couple gray

00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.319
man books I kind of pictured him as almost being

00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:24.430
A little bit on the spectrum, you know as far

00:31:24.430 --> 00:31:26.829
as like at the gate. I was like this guy's autistic

00:31:26.829 --> 00:31:29.450
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then the problem

00:31:29.450 --> 00:31:32.029
is you're writing 150 ,000 word books and a new

00:31:32.029 --> 00:31:34.910
one comes out every year He's kind of got to

00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:37.049
be able to interact with people and you know

00:31:37.049 --> 00:31:40.049
to make that cool And and so I've almost like

00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:42.109
cleaned up some of that and made him a little

00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:46.750
more socially Normal because of Zoya and other

00:31:46.750 --> 00:31:49.450
things that I've tried to make things in his

00:31:49.450 --> 00:31:52.400
life that have happened have that effect on him

00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.559
you know to where he's yeah he's had some progress

00:31:55.559 --> 00:32:00.220
but I just don't ever want to do the same book

00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:04.220
twice and I just feel like you just kind of change

00:32:04.220 --> 00:32:06.059
your characters and develop your characters I

00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:08.619
mean even his relationship with Zach Hightower

00:32:08.619 --> 00:32:10.839
has changed throughout the series like people

00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.200
Yeah, people forget they were trying to kill

00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.279
each other in the first book and they change

00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.779
a couple times. Yeah Yeah, exactly. I love that.

00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.180
Yeah took a very big swing I think about halfway

00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:24.480
through the series where you did a flashback

00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:27.720
book from court's point of view. Yeah. Yeah Which

00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:32.730
is kind of a wild choice to take in. Yeah halfway

00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:35.109
through your established, you know, outline of

00:32:35.109 --> 00:32:37.089
how the books are going to be the only person

00:32:37.089 --> 00:32:39.190
we follow this guy, but we follow other people.

00:32:39.289 --> 00:32:40.490
And then suddenly you're like, no, you're in

00:32:40.490 --> 00:32:43.349
this dude's head. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That

00:32:43.349 --> 00:32:45.750
was, um, that was one minute out. And that was,

00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:49.230
uh, so first off, it's my only book that hit

00:32:49.230 --> 00:32:51.150
number one on the New York times list, but that's

00:32:51.150 --> 00:32:54.089
not why, but I mean, I use it, I use it as an

00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:56.190
excuse for the people that didn't like it. Cause

00:32:56.190 --> 00:32:59.619
I mean, people really liked the book. but more

00:32:59.619 --> 00:33:01.579
people didn't like that book than other books

00:33:01.579 --> 00:33:03.960
because, because of that thing. And they're going

00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:06.319
like, and you know, and they'll go like, I hate

00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.119
first person books. And I'm like, you hate Moby

00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:10.880
Dick. You hate catcher in the ride. You know,

00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.400
it's like, sorry. I mean, I'm not comparing myself

00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:15.039
to those people, but when you just make that

00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.599
blanket statement, it's like, yeah, that's a

00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:20.000
very limiting statement just to make. Now you

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.000
could say you don't like a guy changing, um,

00:33:23.099 --> 00:33:24.940
from third to first. And I get it. You know,

00:33:24.940 --> 00:33:28.130
it's like, I liked it. It made sense for me and

00:33:28.130 --> 00:33:30.190
I thought it made sense for that book because

00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:32.670
I knew he was going to be by himself for a large

00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:35.430
swath of that book. And I think court is kind

00:33:35.430 --> 00:33:39.089
of at its best and my writing is feels freshest

00:33:39.089 --> 00:33:41.950
when there's banter and there's dialogue. And

00:33:41.950 --> 00:33:44.069
if the whole thing was just in his head and third

00:33:44.069 --> 00:33:47.210
person where he's going like the only way I can

00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:49.829
get from here to there is to swing on this vine

00:33:49.829 --> 00:33:51.869
or whatever. You know, it's like that's less

00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:55.519
interesting than him. Telling you going like

00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.180
oh shit. Yeah, I'm gonna have to swing on that

00:33:58.180 --> 00:34:00.460
vine It's like I know what you're thinking that

00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:02.759
ain't gonna work or whatever, you know And so

00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:05.480
I just tried it for a few chapters and I like

00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:08.099
doing it I like the feel of it and I don't know

00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:11.119
if I'll do it again But I was okay that I did

00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.219
it, you know Lee child who writes the Jack Reacher

00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:16.940
series He did it and you know, like half a dozen

00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:19.079
books into his series He did one in first person

00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:20.719
and he did another one first person down the

00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.519
road. And so everybody goes like you can't just

00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:26.289
to first person and i'm yeah i want to go like

00:34:26.289 --> 00:34:28.349
yes i can because he did it but i mean you know

00:34:28.349 --> 00:34:30.909
everybody gets to like and not like what you

00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:33.510
know what they want so it's like i respect people

00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:36.469
to disagree with that decision but it felt right

00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:39.250
to me at the time also if you're creating something

00:34:39.250 --> 00:34:41.449
this is my point of view on basically all forms

00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:45.150
of art uh you can do whatever you want it's your

00:34:45.150 --> 00:34:49.380
thing yeah yeah And and that's the tough thing,

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.320
because like a lot of people will go like, well,

00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:53.460
court wouldn't do this or court wouldn't do that.

00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.340
And I would kind of go like, yeah, he just did.

00:34:56.679 --> 00:35:01.260
And it's just like it's just like as a as a real

00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:04.079
person, it's like not everybody does exactly

00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.340
the same thing or not. Everything follows from

00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:08.980
A to B to C. And it's like it made sense in that

00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:10.800
moment for that character. But when people tell

00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:13.840
me the guy that writes it, the character wouldn't

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:18.000
do that. I'm kind of going like, I mean, I guess

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:22.420
I get to be the arbiter of what he does. Yeah,

00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.239
exactly. It's like, I didn't think that I needed

00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:31.159
to consult with you. But but again, it's subjective.

00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:34.039
And so like, I say all that, but then I'll read

00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:36.559
somebody else's stuff and go like, Oh, I like

00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:38.260
that writer, but that doesn't make sense for

00:35:38.260 --> 00:35:42.219
that care, you know, like, so we all subjectively,

00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:44.659
I'll read something and I'll be sure that that

00:35:44.659 --> 00:35:47.369
person is wrong. And Of course, they're not wrong.

00:35:47.429 --> 00:35:49.289
It's just their interpretation of it. You know,

00:35:49.369 --> 00:35:53.170
so I mean, art is a complicated thing because

00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:58.510
it's for sure. And you had your the first Grey

00:35:58.510 --> 00:36:01.489
Man book turned into an incredibly expensive

00:36:01.489 --> 00:36:05.369
200 million dollar movie. Yeah. What is that

00:36:05.369 --> 00:36:07.730
process like? I mean, I know originally it was.

00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:11.320
going to be Brad Pitt. I love Ryan Gosling, but

00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:14.199
boy do I love Brad Pitt. Also at the same time,

00:36:14.300 --> 00:36:19.219
do I buy Brad Pitt as an autistic hitman? What

00:36:19.219 --> 00:36:24.860
was the experience like starting from 2010 -11

00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:28.260
through the hell of it being sat on a shelf for

00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.639
so long until finally it came out? How involved

00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.659
were you in it? I was really not that involved.

00:36:35.179 --> 00:36:38.880
So initially, Right when, uh, right when I got

00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.280
the book deal, they, and you know, my first book,

00:36:42.460 --> 00:36:45.539
the gray man was a paperback novel. It was not

00:36:45.539 --> 00:36:48.599
a big advance. It was not like one of these things

00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.820
that you hear of that just like is auctioned

00:36:50.820 --> 00:36:52.440
off and all the publishers want it. You know,

00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:55.440
it's I, I had nine publishers turn it down before

00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:58.219
a publisher said that they would publish it.

00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.019
And, and, um, so it didn't come out with a bang,

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.710
but Initially, like literally, the minute that

00:37:05.710 --> 00:37:07.989
it's sort of announced, they do like a one line

00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:13.510
thing in variety or trade magazine called Publishers

00:37:13.510 --> 00:37:15.670
Weekly, just for people in the publishing industry.

00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:22.150
And it was literally like a thriller by debut

00:37:22.150 --> 00:37:28.670
author Mark Graney was sold to Berkeley. About

00:37:28.670 --> 00:37:31.469
a hit man who has to run a gauntlet of killers

00:37:31.469 --> 00:37:37.750
to rescue two Granddaughters of his boss or something

00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:39.730
like that and it's literally all that was the

00:37:39.730 --> 00:37:43.829
line and so a guy in Hollywood and an agent at

00:37:43.829 --> 00:37:47.289
creative artists CAA and in Hollywood read that

00:37:47.289 --> 00:37:50.170
and then called up my agent and said hey Can

00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:52.050
I get a copy of that manuscript? This is almost

00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:54.570
two two years before it the book came out on

00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:57.949
shelves and so I mean, that was literally how

00:37:57.949 --> 00:38:00.269
it started. And so my agent sent him like, you

00:38:00.269 --> 00:38:02.610
know, the what I had at that moment, which was,

00:38:02.630 --> 00:38:04.710
you know, the draft that hadn't been edited by

00:38:04.710 --> 00:38:06.809
an editor or anything, we just literally had

00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:10.309
the book deal. And he said, Hey, I like this,

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:11.949
I want to represent it. So he started shopping

00:38:11.949 --> 00:38:15.150
it around. But even my agent kind of chuckled

00:38:15.150 --> 00:38:16.949
when he said, Yeah, there's a guy in Hollywood

00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:19.610
shopping this around, you know, it's like your

00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:22.590
their little, you know, small little paperback

00:38:22.590 --> 00:38:26.670
book that's coming out. And then he was like,

00:38:26.869 --> 00:38:29.429
Hey, I think we've got interest at this studio

00:38:29.429 --> 00:38:32.550
in this studio. And we actually got an offer,

00:38:32.909 --> 00:38:35.269
you know, six or nine months before the book

00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:37.710
came out. And it wasn't for a lot of money, but

00:38:37.710 --> 00:38:40.260
I was like, the best thing in the world when

00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:43.179
my dumb little paperback comes out and I go out

00:38:43.179 --> 00:38:45.400
and talk about it on my local radio station,

00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:47.679
you know, there's nothing greater for me to go

00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:49.739
like, yeah, Hollywood's picked it up. So it's

00:38:49.739 --> 00:38:52.059
like, I would have given it away to be able to

00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:54.559
like, say that not for a second thinking there

00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:57.980
would ever be a movie. But my agents were like,

00:38:58.250 --> 00:39:00.050
No, we're going to turn this one down because

00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:01.630
we don't actually think they're going to make

00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:03.349
it. They're not a big enough studio. And I'm

00:39:03.349 --> 00:39:06.150
going like, Oh God. And so finally, right before

00:39:06.150 --> 00:39:08.909
the book came out, it, it optioned, uh, with

00:39:08.909 --> 00:39:12.369
new Regency, which was a big deal. And, um, and

00:39:12.369 --> 00:39:15.090
I got money for it, obviously. And, and I was

00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:17.750
able to kind of like say that, but, but then

00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:19.530
I didn't think any thing would happen. And then

00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:22.750
they got a screenwriter and he wrote a screenplay

00:39:22.750 --> 00:39:25.630
and the screenplay is on was on this thing called

00:39:25.630 --> 00:39:28.449
the black list of that year, which is the best

00:39:28.449 --> 00:39:31.530
unproduced screenplays for the year. And suddenly

00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:35.190
everybody knew about it. And Brad Pitt was interested

00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:38.389
in it and all this. And it went from zero to

00:39:38.389 --> 00:39:41.309
like 100 out of the blue. And it got really close

00:39:41.309 --> 00:39:45.050
to being shot in 2012 with Brad Pitt and James

00:39:45.050 --> 00:39:48.090
Gray to direct it. And then it floundered at

00:39:48.090 --> 00:39:50.699
New Regency. And then the rights came back to

00:39:50.699 --> 00:39:53.119
me and then everybody wanted to do it. And like,

00:39:53.340 --> 00:39:55.739
I'm on the phone with like Channing Tatum's people

00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:59.900
and Lorenzo di Bonaventura who directed like

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:02.639
trans or produced like Transformers and stuff

00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:05.639
and this guy that did edge of tomorrow and like

00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.079
all these like big deals. And then I was on the

00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:10.099
phone with Sony and the Russo brothers and the

00:40:10.099 --> 00:40:11.900
Russo brothers loved it and they wanted to do

00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:15.230
it. And so that's who I went with. And then for

00:40:15.230 --> 00:40:17.110
a couple of years that looked like it was, you

00:40:17.110 --> 00:40:19.389
know, in good shape. And, and the Russo brothers

00:40:19.389 --> 00:40:22.150
wrote a screenplay, which I really liked. And

00:40:22.150 --> 00:40:24.869
then they signed on to do some more Marvel films.

00:40:24.869 --> 00:40:27.949
And then they just kind of had to wait. And then

00:40:27.949 --> 00:40:32.969
the, then Sony decided they wanted, um, um, oh

00:40:32.969 --> 00:40:35.110
my God, the South African, the beautiful South

00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:37.610
African lady whose name I just forgot, famous

00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:43.389
actress. Um, you know, she's in Mad Max. Thank

00:40:43.389 --> 00:40:44.889
you. Thank you. This is the first time I've forgotten

00:40:44.889 --> 00:40:47.750
her name. Charlize Theron wanted to be the gray

00:40:47.750 --> 00:40:50.429
man. So they rewrote the whole script with her

00:40:50.429 --> 00:40:54.469
as the lead. And I remember calling my book editor

00:40:54.469 --> 00:40:56.690
and I was like, can you imagine? I'm like, what

00:40:56.690 --> 00:41:01.690
if I told you one of the most famous movie stars

00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:04.429
in the world is going to play court gentry and

00:41:04.429 --> 00:41:06.900
we can't. we're not going to sell books from

00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:09.179
it because I knew that you couldn't put her face

00:41:09.179 --> 00:41:11.699
on the cover of the gray man novel and you know

00:41:11.699 --> 00:41:15.139
like legitimately and and then that fell through

00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:18.199
and then the pandemic came and then Netflix got

00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.079
it from Sony and the Russo brothers are like,

00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.019
Hey, we want to do it. And so it all came back

00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:24.579
together. But I mean, other than me going out

00:41:24.579 --> 00:41:27.500
to LA for two days and spending it with the Russo

00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:31.000
brothers early on in the process, I had no direct

00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:33.059
involvement and really I wasn't writing the script.

00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:35.500
I was just basically talking about where the

00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.579
series went on from the first book and where

00:41:37.579 --> 00:41:40.889
I saw it going in the future. And so I'd really

00:41:40.889 --> 00:41:43.110
I wasn't on set when they were filming. It was

00:41:43.110 --> 00:41:44.909
during the pandemic. So that was kind of hard

00:41:44.909 --> 00:41:47.230
to do. And so I really had nothing to do with

00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:50.150
it. And I knew they had sent me this the shooting

00:41:50.150 --> 00:41:52.269
script right when they started shooting. And

00:41:52.269 --> 00:41:54.809
I knew, you know, that it was going to be very

00:41:54.809 --> 00:41:57.550
different from the first book. So I kind of had

00:41:57.550 --> 00:42:00.690
my head was around that. When I saw it, I also

00:42:00.690 --> 00:42:02.469
knew that they were spending two hundred million

00:42:02.469 --> 00:42:04.809
dollars on it. And Netflix wanted everybody in

00:42:04.809 --> 00:42:07.250
the world to watch it. So it wasn't going to

00:42:07.250 --> 00:42:10.909
be this really gritty, gritty heavy R rated type

00:42:10.909 --> 00:42:14.869
of a story. So I knew it was going to be desensitized

00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:18.030
in some way. Um, I still liked it, but I mean,

00:42:18.150 --> 00:42:20.610
it wasn't, you know, obviously it wasn't my vision

00:42:20.610 --> 00:42:23.489
for the, for the story because the book is very

00:42:23.489 --> 00:42:27.159
different. Is that hard? to give up the control

00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:29.019
of the story that you created and the characters

00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:31.219
you created and then also see some of the characters

00:42:31.219 --> 00:42:33.780
drop off and some characters be like added into

00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:37.599
it. Honestly, the adding of the characters into

00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.719
it, you know, like it's funny. Like I was when

00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:41.519
I saw the movie, I was like, oh, that's cool.

00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:43.780
That was a cool line that the court said there.

00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:46.039
And I thought Gosling did good. Really good.

00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:48.340
I'm like, that was cool how they did that. That

00:42:48.340 --> 00:42:50.480
was cool how they did that. But then I'd go like

00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.719
the Anna de Armas character kind of comes in

00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.150
and. She doesn't exist in the book. And it's

00:42:55.150 --> 00:42:58.289
like, she kind of comes in and saves things like

00:42:58.289 --> 00:43:01.130
a bunch of times and, you know, like multiple

00:43:01.130 --> 00:43:03.889
times. And then the, the girl in the, in the

00:43:03.889 --> 00:43:05.590
book, and I met the actress, she was awesome.

00:43:06.150 --> 00:43:08.610
Um, she's really good in the movie, but like

00:43:08.610 --> 00:43:12.599
in the book, that little girl. Is involved in

00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.099
her own rescue like she has some agency, you

00:43:15.099 --> 00:43:17.780
know, like she's clever and in this and in the

00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:20.139
movie she's just kind of like a football that's

00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:21.840
you know, like rescue, you know picked up by

00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.940
the hero and Saved and I kind of liked in the

00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:26.679
book that where she had something to do with

00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:28.719
her own rescue She was very clever and pulled

00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.079
some stuff off and so there were things like

00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:32.760
that were hard to watch because I'm going like

00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.420
that's kind of a missed opportunity And I don't

00:43:34.420 --> 00:43:37.219
understand why they did that Um, really the stuff

00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:39.739
that really bugs you is when they call a CIA

00:43:39.739 --> 00:43:42.380
officer, an agent, you know, these things that

00:43:42.380 --> 00:43:45.050
would like. nobody would do and then don't make

00:43:45.050 --> 00:43:47.050
any sense or people firing with their, you know,

00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:48.989
the gun at their shoulder instead of, you know,

00:43:49.070 --> 00:43:51.429
or, or, you know, under the crook of their arm,

00:43:51.570 --> 00:43:53.630
instead of bringing it up to eye level to shoot

00:43:53.630 --> 00:43:55.670
those sorts of things. You go like, Oh my God,

00:43:55.789 --> 00:43:58.170
as a writer, as an author, people tear me. It

00:43:58.170 --> 00:44:00.869
would tear me up if I had, you know, everybody,

00:44:01.130 --> 00:44:03.929
everybody, every CIA officer calling it each

00:44:03.929 --> 00:44:06.130
other agents, you know, and things like that.

00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:08.869
But yeah, it's tough, but then you're just really

00:44:08.869 --> 00:44:11.010
happy that, you know, you're going to get a lot

00:44:11.010 --> 00:44:12.670
more eyeballs on your book. I mean, was great

00:44:12.670 --> 00:44:15.909
for my career and and there was a lot I liked

00:44:15.909 --> 00:44:18.650
about it and you know people were cool in the

00:44:18.650 --> 00:44:20.610
process you know it's like it could have been

00:44:20.610 --> 00:44:23.929
a lot more close to the book but I'm sure every

00:44:23.929 --> 00:44:26.190
author in the history of time has said that so

00:44:26.190 --> 00:44:30.349
I'm no different I mean I feel like first I want

00:44:30.349 --> 00:44:34.210
to take a note that the actress that plays like

00:44:34.210 --> 00:44:37.610
the girl in the gray man movie she's in Once

00:44:37.610 --> 00:44:41.550
Upon a Time in Hollywood yeah he acts On par

00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:43.869
with the Caprio, so they should have just let

00:44:43.869 --> 00:44:46.809
her run fucking free in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

00:44:46.809 --> 00:44:51.789
exactly. Very good. Yeah But I feel like your

00:44:51.789 --> 00:44:57.010
books were were they to get the you know 90s

00:44:57.010 --> 00:44:59.230
treatment of these type of books like a no way

00:44:59.230 --> 00:45:03.630
out, you know the Batman movie. Yeah That kind

00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:05.570
of treatment I think would have lended itself

00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:07.969
better to the original story. They wouldn't have

00:45:07.969 --> 00:45:12.320
had to like pull shit. Yeah Yeah, and and you

00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.380
know, I would like them to I don't think they'll

00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:19.219
they're gonna do a second movie with with Gosling

00:45:19.219 --> 00:45:21.420
and the Russo brothers just because of what those

00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:24.340
guys are doing now I mean the film was very successful

00:45:24.340 --> 00:45:28.199
but Successful as the film will that was the

00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.139
directors and the actor are very successful and

00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:33.380
are doing their own thing But I think there is

00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:35.440
a chance I mean it more than a chance that Netflix

00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:37.820
will reboot it as a series and I really hope

00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:41.110
that happens to kind of give a longer version

00:45:41.110 --> 00:45:44.170
and kind of get a little bit deeper into the

00:45:44.170 --> 00:45:46.170
characters and stuff like that. And that would

00:45:46.170 --> 00:45:49.090
be my dream for that to come together like that.

00:45:50.070 --> 00:45:51.829
And, you know, my fingers are crossed that that

00:45:51.829 --> 00:45:54.650
happens sometime pretty soon. I mean, I feel

00:45:54.650 --> 00:45:57.449
like the limited series has become the place

00:45:57.449 --> 00:46:02.550
for heavier stuff. Oftentimes. Sure. True Detective.

00:46:03.150 --> 00:46:06.409
No one's making a movie like True Detective now,

00:46:06.409 --> 00:46:08.860
but you can get away. an eight part limited series

00:46:08.860 --> 00:46:12.539
for some. Yeah, yeah, you can do so much more.

00:46:12.739 --> 00:46:14.739
And then you're like, obviously, as an author

00:46:14.739 --> 00:46:19.480
that writes a 500 page book, you go, okay, it's

00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.460
a 90 page screenplay, or it's 890 page screenplays.

00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:25.340
And you know, it's like, you would love to be

00:46:25.340 --> 00:46:27.679
able to go into, you know, to have them go into

00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:30.860
some other some of the other characters. And,

00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:34.619
you know, they're developing It looks pretty

00:46:34.619 --> 00:46:36.039
stalled right now, but for a while they were

00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:41.099
developing Armored as a series. I mean, it's

00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:44.340
still out there. It could still happen, but at

00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:47.320
one point they had a screenwriter or whatever

00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:52.559
they call a writer for a TV, a teleplay writer

00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:56.300
or something. And I talked to him and like his

00:46:56.300 --> 00:46:58.239
vision for it. I was going like, oh my gosh,

00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:01.159
that just encompasses so much of the story that

00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:03.980
you couldn't do in a two hour film. And yeah,

00:47:03.980 --> 00:47:06.559
I think that's got to be any writer's dream.

00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:08.579
But I mean, you know, you've got, you know, you're

00:47:08.579 --> 00:47:10.639
giving up creativity and unless you're Stephen

00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:14.179
King or somebody like that, you're giving up,

00:47:14.179 --> 00:47:17.019
you know, some creativity and you're, you know,

00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:20.960
to, to others and everybody's got their own version.

00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:22.739
And, you know, it's like I said, from the beginning,

00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:26.440
it's like, The the screenwriters and the actors

00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:29.280
and stuff. It's not their job to render my sheet

00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:32.699
of paper with words on it Into celluloid, you

00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:36.019
know exactly. So everybody is an artist and everybody

00:47:36.019 --> 00:47:40.159
wants to put their their Vision on it and really

00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:44.460
it starts out with the writers Perfect thought

00:47:44.460 --> 00:47:46.820
of how he wants the story to be and it's only

00:47:46.820 --> 00:47:48.699
gonna get watered You know, it's that's only

00:47:48.699 --> 00:47:51.300
gonna get changed, you know, and there's a there's

00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:55.550
a few Movies that to me are is is good or almost

00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:57.969
as good as the book and hunt for red October

00:47:57.969 --> 00:47:59.630
If you you know, if you've seen that movie, it's

00:47:59.630 --> 00:48:02.769
like that is all almost. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure

00:48:02.769 --> 00:48:06.349
yeah almost shot for shot what's in the book

00:48:06.349 --> 00:48:09.510
and Silence of the lambs is another one. That's

00:48:09.510 --> 00:48:12.510
like it. It's like great book great movie, you

00:48:12.510 --> 00:48:14.849
know, it's like no notes, you know, it's just

00:48:14.849 --> 00:48:17.630
like really cool I feel like that happens the

00:48:17.630 --> 00:48:21.840
most when People take because like the first

00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.000
gray man book if you were to like if I was a

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.880
guy in Hollywood pitching ideas I would have

00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:29.400
read that line too and been like great a bunch

00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:31.920
of hitman teams and yeah across the continent

00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.619
Yeah, that's all right after the born movies

00:48:35.619 --> 00:48:37.900
got huge. This is what yeah, and and the tight

00:48:37.900 --> 00:48:40.179
the taken series had just started I've always

00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:43.170
thought that that that kind of helped get the

00:48:43.170 --> 00:48:45.389
gray man, you know, kicked off because taken

00:48:45.389 --> 00:48:48.869
one came out earlier that year. And I think people

00:48:48.869 --> 00:48:50.889
were going like, hey, that doesn't seem too expensive.

00:48:51.010 --> 00:48:52.949
I mean, ultimately it was with the gray man.

00:48:53.070 --> 00:48:55.269
But, you know, it's like you got a guy with a

00:48:55.269 --> 00:48:57.210
gun going around kicking people's butts. It's

00:48:57.210 --> 00:48:59.389
like it's not like another, you know, Marvel

00:48:59.389 --> 00:49:01.889
film. It's not taking place in space or anything

00:49:01.889 --> 00:49:05.730
super expensive CGI. Yeah, exactly. Exist. It's

00:49:05.730 --> 00:49:09.130
modern day. But I mean, you know, if you keep

00:49:09.130 --> 00:49:12.940
the initial kernel of the idea that makes it

00:49:12.940 --> 00:49:16.219
a good story. You can change little things here

00:49:16.219 --> 00:49:19.280
and there, right? Like prekin adapted, the French

00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:21.599
connection, the exorcist, and they're not the

00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.880
exact same as the books, but baseline of them

00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.840
has not changed in any capacity. Right? Yeah.

00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:30.659
And like, that's what made those stories good.

00:49:31.019 --> 00:49:34.360
But if you end up in like, in the gray man movie,

00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:36.500
I was I think an hour into it, I hadn't met the

00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:41.610
hitman teams yet. All of the time on this, this

00:49:41.610 --> 00:49:46.030
is the story, you know? So I feel like, or even

00:49:46.030 --> 00:49:47.949
like The Shining, the book and the movie are

00:49:47.949 --> 00:49:50.230
different, but the initial, the baseline of it's

00:49:50.230 --> 00:49:53.969
the same. Yeah, exactly. But it's hard to change

00:49:53.969 --> 00:49:56.769
mediums effectively. And I think especially now

00:49:56.769 --> 00:50:00.389
in the general cinematic landscape, like you

00:50:00.389 --> 00:50:02.849
said, people don't want it to be rough. You know,

00:50:02.989 --> 00:50:05.590
they want the brightest audience possible. Sure.

00:50:05.789 --> 00:50:08.929
Yeah. And you know, from an economic stance,

00:50:08.929 --> 00:50:11.750
you see that then you've got films like John

00:50:11.750 --> 00:50:14.369
Wick, where they're like, we're going for the

00:50:14.369 --> 00:50:18.329
rough stuff and, and, you know, we don't care,

00:50:18.329 --> 00:50:20.329
you know, like the more blood and guts, the better.

00:50:20.329 --> 00:50:23.829
And so that that's there too. But I mean, I think

00:50:23.829 --> 00:50:27.269
in my case, it was during the pandemic, it was

00:50:27.269 --> 00:50:30.230
Netflix. So it's, you know, pretty much commercial

00:50:30.230 --> 00:50:32.630
TV or today and today's version of commercial

00:50:32.630 --> 00:50:36.219
TV. And so that that's what they were going for.

00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:38.300
And you know, honestly, they executed a lot of

00:50:38.300 --> 00:50:40.539
it really good. There's not one line in that

00:50:40.539 --> 00:50:44.440
entire film that comes out of the book that I've

00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.400
noticed, you know, not not the not one character

00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:49.960
says one thing that that is in the every single

00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:51.980
thing has changed. A lot of the ideas are the

00:50:51.980 --> 00:50:54.460
same and the scene where he's in like he falls

00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:56.900
in the cistern and all that stuff. I mean, that's

00:50:56.900 --> 00:51:00.869
very, very similar to how it was in the And you

00:51:00.869 --> 00:51:02.769
know, you know, there are a lot of things that

00:51:02.769 --> 00:51:04.829
were very, very similar. But like, there was

00:51:04.829 --> 00:51:06.650
no point in there where I go like, that's a line

00:51:06.650 --> 00:51:07.829
out of the book. I mean, I haven't read the book

00:51:07.829 --> 00:51:10.329
in 15 years. But like, I would, I would remember,

00:51:10.369 --> 00:51:12.289
you know, a piece of dialogue that would go like,

00:51:12.369 --> 00:51:13.949
Oh, yeah, that was out of that. That was out

00:51:13.949 --> 00:51:16.650
of that book. Right. And have you seen the movie

00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:19.179
Sorcerer? I was going to ask you about that because

00:51:19.179 --> 00:51:21.199
you're talking about Friedkin and everybody says

00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.880
Sorcerer is this just incredible thing and it's

00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.599
got it's on my with Koskinski and it's it's on

00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:31.059
my like list of things to watch because I I want

00:51:31.059 --> 00:51:33.480
to write something that's sort of limited in

00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:36.119
scope but like really really big and deep deep

00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:38.500
and broad so like the idea the idea of moving

00:51:38.500 --> 00:51:41.139
a boat you know like I'm like how do you make

00:51:41.139 --> 00:51:44.360
that work so everybody says it's magic so I really

00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:48.000
want to see it the boat one is Fitzcarraldo Oh,

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.159
okay. I got it wrong. So Sorcerer is about a

00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:52.579
truck. Yeah, Sorcerer. Yep. That's right. Okay.

00:51:52.699 --> 00:51:54.820
Yeah, I'm getting get I'm conflating but I do

00:51:54.820 --> 00:51:57.300
know I'm aware of both of them. Oh, yeah, the

00:51:57.300 --> 00:52:00.960
like going through the second Josh Duffy book.

00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:04.900
I'm like this is Sorcerer, you know, like they're

00:52:04.900 --> 00:52:08.019
they're guys who are essentially they have nowhere

00:52:08.019 --> 00:52:10.860
else to turn. Right? Yeah. something they end

00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:14.539
up in the Peruvian jungle and they have these

00:52:14.539 --> 00:52:18.860
two trucks full of nitroglycerin 219 miles and

00:52:18.860 --> 00:52:21.940
is their only chance at survival. If they move

00:52:21.940 --> 00:52:26.380
too much they're going to explode and die. What

00:52:26.380 --> 00:52:29.760
a perfect premise. If that popped into my head

00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:32.659
while I was taking a shower I would just Just

00:52:32.659 --> 00:52:35.820
run to naked to my computer and I would just

00:52:35.820 --> 00:52:39.440
be there for days like I just love Just the idea

00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:42.260
of something just to contain premise like that

00:52:42.260 --> 00:52:44.480
that you can just make into something like that's

00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:46.920
really cool I need to see both those films. It's

00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:50.260
there. I mean, it's also at a time where Sorcerer

00:52:50.260 --> 00:52:52.579
bombed because it came out opposite Star Wars

00:52:52.579 --> 00:52:57.179
and People just didn't want the dark shit anymore,

00:52:57.260 --> 00:53:01.420
right? But if sorcerer had My theory is if Sorcerer

00:53:01.420 --> 00:53:03.340
had made the money Star Wars did and Star Wars

00:53:03.340 --> 00:53:05.880
bombed, that Grey Man movie would have looked

00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.199
really different. Oh, wow. Wow. That is a butterfly

00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:13.500
effect. I like that. Yeah. I mean, that's a movie

00:53:13.500 --> 00:53:18.500
that based on like location and just amount of

00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:20.460
just tenseness, you know, there's a review on

00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:22.960
letterbox. That's just this movie makes you say,

00:53:23.059 --> 00:53:25.420
oh, Jesus Christ, every 30 seconds. Oh, wow.

00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:28.800
And it does. But that whole thing, you got to

00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:31.619
watch Sorcerer. Yeah, I definitely want to watch

00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:33.780
both those films. But I mean, I definitely want

00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:37.760
to see Sorcerer. Well, you deal with a lot with

00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:44.579
the intelligence world. How have you researched

00:53:44.579 --> 00:53:48.639
it? Yeah, we're curious and just general intelligence

00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:53.239
agency stuff and right now. So I would just want

00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.639
to talk a little bit about What your take on

00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:59.159
the intelligence world is if these type of things

00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:03.000
exist You know where there are like intense black

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:05.699
-off operations or assassins or people that are

00:54:05.699 --> 00:54:08.940
like, you know? Possible like possible deniability

00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:13.699
on assets stuff. Yeah, and it is there that that

00:54:13.699 --> 00:54:16.260
sorcerer moment where you use you read something

00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:18.119
or aware of something that's actually happening

00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.469
and run naked to your computer for hours. Is

00:54:21.469 --> 00:54:23.369
it, is it, is there stuff like that where you

00:54:23.369 --> 00:54:25.070
see something and you're like, I have to translate

00:54:25.070 --> 00:54:29.190
this? Yeah, you know, it's funny. Like, so I

00:54:29.190 --> 00:54:33.070
talked to a lot of X this and X that, um, more

00:54:33.070 --> 00:54:35.489
than anything, I have definitely talked to some

00:54:35.489 --> 00:54:38.190
people who are actually on the job in different

00:54:38.190 --> 00:54:42.019
capacities. So, you know, like Nobody really

00:54:42.019 --> 00:54:45.000
tells me classified stuff. I mean, you can infer

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:47.360
stuff. And I've definitely I've been in the conversations

00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:50.059
with people like most recently at the Pentagon

00:54:50.059 --> 00:54:52.679
where I asked a question. They're like, yeah,

00:54:52.780 --> 00:54:54.500
OK, we're not talking about that. Let's talk

00:54:54.500 --> 00:54:56.579
about anything else but that, you know, and it's

00:54:56.579 --> 00:55:00.159
like, all right. So it's like what I've heard

00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:04.260
is true. And right. And a lot of, you know, and

00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:06.800
I talked to a lot of military people and they

00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:08.780
are sort of like. Do you know the difference

00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:11.300
between Title 10 and Title 50 in the military?

00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:16.960
Okay, so a military operation, the simple way

00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:21.739
to explain it is, so let's say when the military

00:55:21.739 --> 00:55:25.159
went into Venezuela and got Maduro, that was

00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:27.800
a Title 10 operation. They were working in the

00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:30.800
capacity of the military. The Navy SEALs were

00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.940
working in the capacity of the military. But

00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:37.199
there's also something called Title 50, where

00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.699
That same military unit can be working in the

00:55:40.699 --> 00:55:43.760
capacity of intelligence officer. So they have

00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:46.000
whole different rules of engagement. They have

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.860
a whole different sort of like, well, I guess

00:55:47.860 --> 00:55:50.559
lines they report to, but they still report up

00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.260
to their commanders without their commanders

00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:59.019
report to other people. So really the short answer

00:55:59.019 --> 00:56:01.800
is like a lot of this stuff that I talk about.

00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:06.199
in these books would probably be done by military

00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:10.780
unit working in the capacity under an intelligence

00:56:10.780 --> 00:56:14.119
service. Right. And that happens. There's also

00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:17.679
a group in the CIA CIA called the Special Activities

00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:19.900
Center. They used to be called Special Activities

00:56:19.900 --> 00:56:22.800
Division. And that's who court allegedly used

00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:27.239
to work for. And they are small units. All are

00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:29.920
former special forces. So they're all going to

00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:34.730
be former, um, uh, Delta force predominantly

00:56:34.730 --> 00:56:38.550
or seal team six or like one of those super elite

00:56:38.550 --> 00:56:41.889
joint special operations commands units. So,

00:56:41.889 --> 00:56:45.570
you know, not a green beret, special forces,

00:56:45.750 --> 00:56:48.889
not army Rangers, not regular seals, but the

00:56:48.889 --> 00:56:52.289
seal team six, which is like the regular seals

00:56:52.289 --> 00:56:56.349
are very, very competent SWAT team guys. Basically,

00:56:56.349 --> 00:56:58.570
if you think of them like that seal team six

00:56:58.570 --> 00:57:02.480
is our elite counter -terrorism unit that does

00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.260
the super badass stuff. Delta Force is like our

00:57:06.260 --> 00:57:08.760
elite Green Berets, you know, very small unit

00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:11.420
that does really well. And that's, it was a Delta

00:57:11.420 --> 00:57:14.239
Force in Venezuela. I think I just said the team,

00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:18.559
SEAL teams, but it was Delta Force. And Special

00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:21.179
Activities Division pulls out of those units

00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:24.920
mostly and has these very, very small teams that

00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:27.639
do these jobs. Usually those guys are a little

00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.059
bit older. It's one of the problems. Like when

00:57:30.059 --> 00:57:32.760
I wrote Grey Man, I didn't have access to these

00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:35.960
people. I was just a guy working a day job trying

00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:38.159
to write at Starbucks before work every morning.

00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:42.920
And so I made court as a member of the Special

00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:45.860
Activities Division. And it's like, now that

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:49.550
I know a lot of uh, SAD now they're called special

00:57:49.550 --> 00:57:52.409
activity center. I know a lot of these guys and

00:57:52.409 --> 00:57:54.489
you know, they've all had like, you know, four

00:57:54.489 --> 00:57:56.630
or five surgeries and they're, they're veterans.

00:57:57.050 --> 00:57:58.530
They're a little bit older. So they're, they're

00:57:58.530 --> 00:58:01.349
not really running gunners. Excuse me. Like,

00:58:01.369 --> 00:58:05.070
like a Delta force team, you know, would be so,

00:58:05.449 --> 00:58:07.690
I mean, yeah, all kinds of stuff happens. And

00:58:07.690 --> 00:58:09.630
I think this stuff that happens in happened in

00:58:09.630 --> 00:58:13.809
Venezuela was like kind of one of the best executed

00:58:13.809 --> 00:58:18.349
operations. Of our lifetime as far as like they

00:58:18.349 --> 00:58:21.510
had the Navy involved. They had cyber involved.

00:58:21.849 --> 00:58:25.849
They had some kind of secret weapon involved.

00:58:25.929 --> 00:58:29.449
Um, that was apparently it was some sort of directed

00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:33.750
energy weapon. They had as few as, as few as

00:58:33.750 --> 00:58:37.179
20 Delta force guys. actually in the compound

00:58:37.179 --> 00:58:39.500
that got Maduro, which is, that's a pretty small

00:58:39.500 --> 00:58:42.059
unit. Um, you know, obviously for the purposes

00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:45.579
of our stories, it's one guy or two guys because

00:58:45.579 --> 00:58:48.500
you know, if everything was like 20 guys plus

00:58:48.500 --> 00:58:51.559
the, uh, the intelligence dudes and plus the

00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:52.920
cyber dudes or whatever, you couldn't really

00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.900
tell a story that way. But I mean, cool, sorry.

00:58:56.460 --> 00:59:00.650
Um, cool things happen. But not really at that

00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:03.690
like one or two guy level that that you put in

00:59:03.690 --> 00:59:06.210
these in these books and it's funny there I don't

00:59:06.210 --> 00:59:08.190
know if you've read anything by Brad Taylor.

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:11.289
He's one of my best friends and he's former Delta

00:59:11.289 --> 00:59:16.449
Force dude but Brad I've done signings with Brad

00:59:16.449 --> 00:59:18.409
and he'll be like, no, this stuff absolutely

00:59:18.409 --> 00:59:20.309
does not happen. And I'll be like, yeah, it probably

00:59:20.309 --> 00:59:22.949
happens. Now, Brad, Brad used to be in Delta

00:59:22.949 --> 00:59:26.809
and but he's very, very specific. You know, he's

00:59:26.809 --> 00:59:28.829
going like, yeah, no, this would this would not

00:59:28.829 --> 00:59:31.329
be allowed. You know, blah, blah, blah. And and

00:59:31.329 --> 00:59:33.550
I'm always kind of like winking behind him. But

00:59:33.550 --> 00:59:37.650
he's he's more right than I am for sure. But

00:59:37.650 --> 00:59:40.789
he's not, you know, he's he's also careful in

00:59:40.789 --> 00:59:43.710
what he says. Right. Do you get any pushback?

00:59:43.929 --> 00:59:47.650
from intelligence agencies on this or governmental

00:59:47.650 --> 00:59:49.570
agencies aside from just being like, hey, we're

00:59:49.570 --> 00:59:52.670
not going to talk about this. Never not even

00:59:52.670 --> 00:59:56.530
once. And it's so funny that I have met so many

00:59:56.530 --> 01:00:01.809
people who are CIA officers or NSA people or

01:00:01.809 --> 01:00:05.969
Delta Force people or SEAL Team Six guys who

01:00:05.969 --> 01:00:10.110
really, really like the books. And obviously

01:00:10.110 --> 01:00:12.889
they know Part of it's ridiculous. You know what

01:00:12.889 --> 01:00:14.789
I mean? Like, but, but there it's, it's weird.

01:00:14.809 --> 01:00:17.989
Like I, I would expect because like I go to,

01:00:18.050 --> 01:00:20.469
you know, I see these guys in things that aren't

01:00:20.469 --> 01:00:22.929
like my book signing. So I, you know, like I

01:00:22.929 --> 01:00:27.010
go to shot show, which is a, a firearms, um,

01:00:27.110 --> 01:00:29.690
trade show. And like all these guys are there

01:00:29.690 --> 01:00:31.389
and people will be like, Oh yeah, it's the dude

01:00:31.389 --> 01:00:32.650
that wrote the gray man or whatever. They'll

01:00:32.650 --> 01:00:34.530
be like, Oh yeah, I really like your books. Now

01:00:34.530 --> 01:00:37.789
I know that they know that I, when I'm talking

01:00:37.789 --> 01:00:41.539
about what they do for a living, that I am doing

01:00:41.539 --> 01:00:44.139
it for entertainment value, you know what I mean?

01:00:44.179 --> 01:00:47.119
And it's not like super realistic, but they're

01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:51.510
incredibly cool about it. enjoy it and like it

01:00:51.510 --> 01:00:54.170
and tell me what they like or whatever. Um, you

01:00:54.170 --> 01:00:55.969
know, they'll kind of laugh along with me when

01:00:55.969 --> 01:00:58.849
I'll say stuff like, you know, yeah, this guy

01:00:58.849 --> 01:01:01.630
did this thing by himself, you know, and the

01:01:01.630 --> 01:01:04.469
reality is it would be probably 350 people and

01:01:04.469 --> 01:01:07.429
they'd screw it up, you know? Um, but yeah, no,

01:01:07.469 --> 01:01:10.130
it's weird. I've, I've always expected, you know,

01:01:10.150 --> 01:01:12.769
I'm always like a little bit early in my career.

01:01:12.769 --> 01:01:15.510
I was the ghost writer with a Delta Force guy.

01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.639
on a couple of novels and so like my name's nowhere

01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:21.119
on the books his name is and he used to be in

01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:23.639
Delta Force and it was like so awkward to me

01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:26.539
because I'm like a nobody I literally had to

01:01:26.539 --> 01:01:28.860
buy a book to see exactly what Delta Force was

01:01:28.860 --> 01:01:31.320
before I wrote a book like I was the Delta Force

01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.300
guy okay and and so I'd get on the phone with

01:01:34.300 --> 01:01:37.400
this guy he was he was awesome I'd be like, yeah,

01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:40.400
I sent you some chapters. What'd you think? And

01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:42.719
and he loved it. He was very cool about it. And

01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:45.079
the whole time I'm going like, you know, it's

01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:47.659
like I've waited tables to I was a bartender

01:01:47.659 --> 01:01:50.019
till I was like 30. You know, it's like, you

01:01:50.019 --> 01:01:52.099
know, when this guy was, you know, doing all

01:01:52.099 --> 01:01:55.239
this cool stuff. And at the same time, though,

01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:58.579
I remember he's like, I do have one little critique

01:01:58.579 --> 01:02:00.119
for you. I was like, yeah. And I thought he's

01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:02.699
going to be like, well, we don't use the Berettas

01:02:02.699 --> 01:02:04.579
anymore. We use this gun or whatever. And he

01:02:04.579 --> 01:02:07.840
goes like, Could could you dial back a little

01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:10.039
bit of the cussing? I'd really appreciate if

01:02:10.039 --> 01:02:12.360
you do that. He's like, because I got three daughters

01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:13.980
and I know they're going to read this. And I

01:02:13.980 --> 01:02:17.639
was just like, oh, my God. And I'm just doing

01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:21.739
it for like, you know, the the humor value in

01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:24.219
a situation. A couple of Delta guys like cussing

01:02:24.219 --> 01:02:26.519
each other out or whatever. But, you know, he's

01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.739
like coming, coming back at me going like, man,

01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:30.980
you did a really good job. Could you have less

01:02:30.980 --> 01:02:35.260
bad words? And I'm and I'm like, I feel like

01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:37.699
a dog that's just been beaten. I'm like, yes,

01:02:37.699 --> 01:02:43.000
sir. I'll take care of that. You you have a new

01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.800
Greyman book coming out, right? Yes, I do. Yeah.

01:02:46.340 --> 01:02:50.679
It's called The Hardline and it is my 15th in

01:02:50.679 --> 01:02:54.519
the series. And it's I'm really happy with it.

01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:57.019
You know, it's like with every book, if you catch

01:02:57.019 --> 01:03:00.010
me like in July, I will tell you to your face,

01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:02.369
this is the worst thing or it's not ever going

01:03:02.369 --> 01:03:06.489
to come out. Just because I'm always pulling

01:03:06.489 --> 01:03:08.969
my hair out. And it's really not to like my second

01:03:08.969 --> 01:03:10.769
edit to where I go like, oh, I found the book.

01:03:10.809 --> 01:03:12.789
My wife loves it. When I come in, I go like,

01:03:13.090 --> 01:03:15.269
I think I just found the book in this hundred

01:03:15.269 --> 01:03:17.449
and sixty thousand page, you know, one hundred

01:03:17.449 --> 01:03:18.969
and sixty thousand word thing that I've written.

01:03:19.570 --> 01:03:22.289
Because, you know, for me, if a book is ninety

01:03:22.289 --> 01:03:24.550
nine percent done, that means you've got like

01:03:24.550 --> 01:03:26.809
five hundred problems with it. And it just feels

01:03:26.809 --> 01:03:30.360
like this. this, you know, this monster. And,

01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:32.280
uh, but I'm really happy with how this one turned

01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:35.119
out. It's, uh, it's got all the action of any

01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:37.139
other gray man book, but it also has a lot more

01:03:37.139 --> 01:03:40.460
nuance. It gets into court's family and it gets

01:03:40.460 --> 01:03:44.840
into Zach's family and, and, and past. And really

01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.420
the, of all my books, this has got an antagonist,

01:03:48.420 --> 01:03:52.150
a villain. who I think readers will identify

01:03:52.150 --> 01:03:55.030
with more than anybody else. He's a Northern

01:03:55.030 --> 01:03:58.889
Irish assassin and court killed his son and he's,

01:03:58.889 --> 01:04:01.110
uh, he's obsessed with going after court. And

01:04:01.110 --> 01:04:03.469
so there's this big, huge conspiracy in the us

01:04:03.469 --> 01:04:08.449
government and somebody brings five foreign assassins

01:04:08.449 --> 01:04:10.869
into America to take out intelligence professionals.

01:04:11.389 --> 01:04:13.590
And one of the assassins is a guy that only wants

01:04:13.590 --> 01:04:16.010
to come to America to get intelligence about

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:18.690
how to find court. And so there's this like these

01:04:18.690 --> 01:04:21.530
two apex predators are after each other in the

01:04:21.530 --> 01:04:23.829
middle of this thing. And court doesn't want

01:04:23.829 --> 01:04:25.429
anything to do with this guy, you know, it's

01:04:25.429 --> 01:04:28.460
like he I told my editor one time, it's like,

01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.059
one day I want to write a book about just one

01:04:31.059 --> 01:04:33.099
of the henchmen that court pushes off the side

01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:35.119
of the mountain as he's on his way to do the

01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.380
cool thing. And that guy come, you know, that

01:04:39.380 --> 01:04:41.800
that quick little interaction comes back to,

01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:44.539
to haunt court. And that's not specifically what

01:04:44.539 --> 01:04:47.539
happens, but this is basically a story about

01:04:47.539 --> 01:04:50.079
something that happened in another gray man book

01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:53.320
where one of the one of the people who fell by

01:04:53.320 --> 01:04:55.579
the wayside as court was going after his very

01:04:55.579 --> 01:04:59.440
legitimate objective was the son of a legendary

01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:03.480
IRA assassin and how that can kind of like come

01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.780
back and haunt court down the road. So it's a

01:05:06.780 --> 01:05:08.440
book that's got a lot. I got to go to Northern

01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:11.320
Ireland to do research on it and up to DC to

01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:14.400
do research. So it was a cool story to work on.

01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:18.780
You see, that's why I appreciate the series because

01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:21.349
it appears that there's actually like Thought

01:05:21.349 --> 01:05:23.449
put in the why the things are happening. You

01:05:23.449 --> 01:05:26.409
know a lot of times in this genre. It just goes

01:05:26.409 --> 01:05:30.570
hey Bad guy good guy and we're gonna yeah gonna

01:05:30.570 --> 01:05:32.650
hit each other at some point and along the way

01:05:32.650 --> 01:05:36.269
if people are gonna get shot Yeah, yeah, I never

01:05:36.269 --> 01:05:39.030
I never want the bad guy to be he's bad cuz he's

01:05:39.030 --> 01:05:40.969
got the black hat on and the other guy's got

01:05:40.969 --> 01:05:45.150
the white hat on Yeah, no, it's like inherently

01:05:46.849 --> 01:05:49.630
Like my college experience was creative writing

01:05:49.630 --> 01:05:51.389
and I've read a lot of stuff and wrote a lot

01:05:51.389 --> 01:05:55.110
of stuff and I'm admittedly Pretentious about

01:05:55.110 --> 01:05:57.469
the like books and movies that everything that

01:05:57.469 --> 01:05:59.349
I enjoy, right? Like I'm like, I hate new movies.

01:05:59.349 --> 01:06:02.210
I only watched 1970s, you know, or whatever kind

01:06:02.210 --> 01:06:06.909
of bullshit But like that story and I feel like

01:06:06.909 --> 01:06:09.849
it's lost a lot that story is interesting without

01:06:09.849 --> 01:06:15.300
those like Cool action sequences. If the story

01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:17.760
can stand alone without any of the fluff, then

01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.039
it's a good story. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And

01:06:21.039 --> 01:06:23.739
I'm always, yeah, I always, I like reading stuff

01:06:23.739 --> 01:06:26.820
like that. I like, you know, the premise, the

01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:29.300
premise standing on its own and, you know, the

01:06:29.300 --> 01:06:32.630
other stuff. It is you know, you want it to be

01:06:32.630 --> 01:06:34.489
unexpected I mean a gray man novel you're gonna

01:06:34.489 --> 01:06:36.030
expect action and of course, you're gonna get

01:06:36.030 --> 01:06:38.449
it I'm gonna try and give you action in different

01:06:38.449 --> 01:06:40.510
ways and in different places than you've had

01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:43.750
it before and and You know try to not cover the

01:06:43.750 --> 01:06:46.110
same ground I'm just obsessed with not doing

01:06:46.110 --> 01:06:49.030
the same thing again because it's it's just gonna

01:06:49.030 --> 01:06:53.809
feel derivative To the reader and to me. Well,

01:06:53.809 --> 01:06:55.829
yeah, you have to be being as prolific as you

01:06:55.829 --> 01:07:01.030
are. Yeah the freaking real quick that car chase

01:07:01.030 --> 01:07:04.469
in the French connection. Yeah. This is a train

01:07:04.469 --> 01:07:07.349
that entirely came about because he was like,

01:07:07.489 --> 01:07:09.730
people have done cars. Bullet just came out.

01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:11.489
We're not going to do it better. You're right.

01:07:11.659 --> 01:07:15.079
What can he chase that is not a car? And they

01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:18.019
were like, there's trains. Yeah. Yeah. And it's

01:07:18.019 --> 01:07:20.980
the elevated thing. I mean, it's just, it's very

01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:24.719
well shot in the, the, the film is just incredible

01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:26.800
and the pacing of the film. It's like, when you

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:30.000
go back and watch seventies film, it's kind of

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.820
jarring how things are paced. And I mean that

01:07:32.820 --> 01:07:36.860
in a good way, but like, Initially and this especially

01:07:36.860 --> 01:07:38.360
talking to somebody pretentious. You're probably

01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:40.719
gonna this gonna be like nails on a chalkboard

01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:42.280
But when you first start watching it, you're

01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:44.239
like what the hell's happening here, you know

01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:46.619
because it's I don't want to say it's slow I

01:07:46.619 --> 01:07:48.619
don't want to say it's slow but compared to today.

01:07:48.619 --> 01:07:52.239
It's not frantic But once you get into that once

01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:55.000
you get into that pace, it's amazing Well, like

01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:57.219
Dirty Harry, this is my favorite example. Dirty

01:07:57.219 --> 01:08:00.380
Harry is a genre piece, you know, and it's made

01:08:00.380 --> 01:08:02.500
like a best picture. There's no reason that they

01:08:02.500 --> 01:08:04.820
shot it as well as they did. There's no, it's

01:08:04.820 --> 01:08:07.340
as tight as it is, but there's a scene in it

01:08:07.340 --> 01:08:10.980
right where Clint Eastwood goes up on this like

01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:14.820
crane to talk this guy off of a building, right?

01:08:15.219 --> 01:08:17.579
It doesn't really relate to the plot and it's

01:08:17.579 --> 01:08:20.399
shot in real time, mostly in long shots and there's

01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:24.270
no music. And nobody's doing that shit now. Exactly.

01:08:25.510 --> 01:08:29.770
A guy on a crane. Yeah. And it just it just shows

01:08:29.770 --> 01:08:32.909
us how our brains have been rewired over time

01:08:32.909 --> 01:08:35.949
to where like when you when I see it and I'll

01:08:35.949 --> 01:08:38.069
say the same thing about books. Some of my favorite

01:08:38.069 --> 01:08:41.390
books when I was younger on rereads, I go like,

01:08:41.430 --> 01:08:44.890
what is happening here? I mean, it is sacrilege

01:08:44.890 --> 01:08:50.430
to say this. But I mean, have you read The Charm

01:08:50.430 --> 01:08:52.289
School? Do you know that book, The Charm School

01:08:52.289 --> 01:08:54.789
by Nelson DeMille? Okay. It's a Nelson DeMille

01:08:54.789 --> 01:08:57.770
novel. One of my top five favorite novels of

01:08:57.770 --> 01:09:01.090
all time. It takes place during the Soviet Union

01:09:01.090 --> 01:09:02.989
and it's like a young American who's traveling

01:09:02.989 --> 01:09:07.069
in Russia finds that there's a place called Miss

01:09:07.069 --> 01:09:09.470
Ivanova's Charm School, which is like captured

01:09:09.470 --> 01:09:13.520
Vietnam pilots that are being Kidnapped in Russia

01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:17.159
so that they can teach Russian spies how to act

01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:20.659
like Americans. So that's the premise and and

01:09:20.659 --> 01:09:23.800
It's a it's an amazing premise, you know, yeah

01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:28.739
and and and so And there's tons of action all

01:09:28.739 --> 01:09:30.699
this other stuff, but I hadn't reread it forever

01:09:30.699 --> 01:09:32.220
I just tell people charm school is one of the

01:09:32.220 --> 01:09:35.119
best books you'll ever read and as I was rereading

01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:38.119
it the pacing is just so different from how things

01:09:38.119 --> 01:09:41.939
are done now you're going Wait, they just found

01:09:41.939 --> 01:09:43.640
out about the charm school and now they're having

01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:45.840
dinner and he's trying to get this girl in bed.

01:09:45.899 --> 01:09:48.439
You know, it's like, wait a second. There's prisoners

01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:50.600
and they could all die tomorrow. You know, it

01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:52.180
kind of gets in your head a little bit. I mean,

01:09:52.199 --> 01:09:55.500
the book is just as good, but you have to realize

01:09:55.500 --> 01:09:58.659
your brain's been rewired to, you know, you've

01:09:58.659 --> 01:10:01.300
got 15 seconds. Yeah. Do you have to think about

01:10:01.300 --> 01:10:03.039
that? Do you ever get annoyed? You're like, this

01:10:03.039 --> 01:10:06.840
is great, but I have to cater to the short attention

01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.550
span of people. That's a good question. I fight

01:10:10.550 --> 01:10:14.770
against that. In fact, in my gray man novels,

01:10:15.090 --> 01:10:19.930
in this book, the hard line, you see the gray

01:10:19.930 --> 01:10:23.029
man through the as an adversary at the beginning.

01:10:23.090 --> 01:10:25.869
So at the beginning of this book, as far as you're

01:10:25.869 --> 01:10:28.329
concerned, because you're in the head of this

01:10:28.329 --> 01:10:31.829
young henchman who is just trying to get a paycheck

01:10:31.829 --> 01:10:33.250
and didn't even know he's going to be working

01:10:33.250 --> 01:10:35.689
for gangsters until he got there, you know, and

01:10:35.689 --> 01:10:39.869
it's all very like unfortunate. Um, so the only

01:10:39.869 --> 01:10:42.789
way you see the gray man is this, you know, scary

01:10:42.789 --> 01:10:45.189
thing that's coming closer and closer, but you

01:10:45.189 --> 01:10:47.930
don't really see court for maybe 50, 60 pages

01:10:47.930 --> 01:10:49.989
to you're actually in his point of view. And

01:10:49.989 --> 01:10:52.069
that just, every time I'd go back as I was writing

01:10:52.069 --> 01:10:53.609
this book, I was going like, I can't do that.

01:10:53.670 --> 01:10:56.130
I can't get away with that people. And then finally

01:10:56.130 --> 01:10:59.369
I was just like, this works. I mean, it works.

01:10:59.510 --> 01:11:02.270
Some people might not like it and i'm in the

01:11:02.270 --> 01:11:04.010
same thing with the new book it's like i'm not

01:11:04.010 --> 01:11:06.710
quite introducing court as early as i feel like

01:11:06.710 --> 01:11:09.609
i should but then i'm i'm like come on man you

01:11:09.609 --> 01:11:11.270
know it's like people that have stuck with you

01:11:11.270 --> 01:11:13.489
for 15 books are gonna let you get away with

01:11:13.489 --> 01:11:16.630
this and and trust you yeah and trust you and

01:11:16.630 --> 01:11:19.130
if it doesn't work you you will learn a lesson

01:11:19.130 --> 01:11:23.970
well again it's it's your creation yeah do whatever

01:11:23.970 --> 01:11:28.340
you want with it yeah like There's consequences

01:11:28.340 --> 01:11:31.199
to your actions, but with my company, I can do

01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:33.279
whatever I want. I don't have to show up. I can

01:11:33.279 --> 01:11:35.680
deal with whatever happens. Exactly. Right, right,

01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:37.380
right. That's the thing. I can deal with what

01:11:37.380 --> 01:11:41.359
happens. I can do whatever. And if you know inherently

01:11:41.359 --> 01:11:44.920
as a storyteller that the device you're using

01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:52.020
works, you got to do it. And also, please don't

01:11:52.020 --> 01:11:54.840
kill Zoya because every other... Version of this

01:11:54.840 --> 01:11:56.939
they kill the love interest. I know they do.

01:11:57.079 --> 01:11:59.819
I know it's like a mitch rap blowing blowing

01:11:59.819 --> 01:12:03.359
up the wife and the Stop listening to it. I was

01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:05.659
like, okay, I was like, I know this is coming.

01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:07.840
I just can't Yeah, i'm not even i'm not even

01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:11.039
judging it. I'm just going like no Yeah, it was

01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.479
bumming me out. Yeah. Yeah storytelling just

01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:18.399
sucks. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You get

01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:20.819
so invested in the characters. And of course,

01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:22.920
Vince Flynn wouldn't want you to hate it. You

01:12:22.920 --> 01:12:24.439
know, he wouldn't want you to go like, OK, cool.

01:12:24.539 --> 01:12:27.220
We got rid of her. Now he can go back to being

01:12:27.220 --> 01:12:29.739
single or whatever. You know, it's like you want

01:12:29.739 --> 01:12:32.619
there to be emotional stakes. And that was a

01:12:32.619 --> 01:12:34.500
tough thing when I wrote the Tom Clancy, Jack

01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:37.439
Ryan books, because I couldn't necessarily kill

01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:41.699
off Clancy people. So Clancy's creations. So

01:12:41.699 --> 01:12:44.489
there was a guy, a great friend of mine, Grant

01:12:44.489 --> 01:12:48.069
Blackwood, who wrote a book with Clancy before

01:12:48.069 --> 01:12:51.350
I did and introduced several characters. And

01:12:51.350 --> 01:12:53.789
I just had to like call Grant up and I'm like,

01:12:54.109 --> 01:12:57.779
dude, I'm sorry. I'm just Just whittling away

01:12:57.779 --> 01:13:00.779
all of your creations and it's really the only

01:13:00.779 --> 01:13:03.060
way that there can be stakes in this story because

01:13:03.060 --> 01:13:05.279
these are you know characters that are like good

01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:08.140
guys, you know, and I'm like I can't kill John

01:13:08.140 --> 01:13:12.060
Clark and or Jack Ryan or you know mom, you know

01:13:12.060 --> 01:13:14.119
It's like I'm gonna have to kill the people you

01:13:14.119 --> 01:13:16.680
made and he understood it and then I did seven

01:13:16.680 --> 01:13:20.079
Clancy I did seven Jack Ryan books and I guarantee

01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:23.279
every every person I've ever created is slaughtered

01:13:23.279 --> 01:13:26.029
by the next guy that came came along and that's

01:13:26.029 --> 01:13:27.930
just kind of the way that you keep the stakes

01:13:27.930 --> 01:13:32.069
in there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's fascinating.

01:13:32.970 --> 01:13:36.029
I don't know anything about ghost writing, but

01:13:36.029 --> 01:13:41.529
I'm very excited to see this next book. I consistently

01:13:41.529 --> 01:13:44.270
check to see when they're coming out and then

01:13:44.270 --> 01:13:46.689
I go, fuck, it's still like eight months away.

01:13:47.689 --> 01:13:49.750
Yeah. Well, when it's still eight months away,

01:13:49.829 --> 01:13:53.989
that means I had not anywhere near halfway finishing

01:13:53.989 --> 01:13:57.369
it. That's kind of terrifying. It's always terrifying.

01:13:58.789 --> 01:14:01.609
I'm really looking forward to reading these.

01:14:03.270 --> 01:14:06.670
Also, aside from The Sorcerer, you should, if

01:14:06.670 --> 01:14:11.189
you haven't seen Freekin's movie Cruising. I

01:14:11.189 --> 01:14:13.909
knew you were going to bring that up. Who's in

01:14:13.909 --> 01:14:17.529
Cruising? Because the title is... Al Pacino.

01:14:18.710 --> 01:14:21.319
Really? Yeah, it's awesome. It's a strange movie.

01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:25.140
It's a very strange movie. It's a it's it's basically

01:14:25.140 --> 01:14:27.199
Al Pacino's a cop who goes undercover in the

01:14:27.199 --> 01:14:30.119
gay S &M world New York in 1980 to find the serial

01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:33.159
killer. Oh, wow. And when it came out, everyone

01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:36.579
everywhere hated it. Yeah, yeah. Because it was

01:14:36.649 --> 01:14:40.369
It was against his his type or like, you know,

01:14:40.649 --> 01:14:42.649
wasn't what you expected groups didn't want to

01:14:42.649 --> 01:14:45.850
be portrayed as serial killers. Right. Right.

01:14:46.470 --> 01:14:48.649
The Puritan people hated it because it was about

01:14:48.649 --> 01:14:52.489
gay people because it was a problem. Yeah. And

01:14:52.489 --> 01:14:54.390
free free and somehow got that made and just

01:14:54.390 --> 01:14:55.970
said, screw everybody. I'm going to do what I

01:14:55.970 --> 01:14:58.420
want to do. That's the other thing of like movies

01:14:58.420 --> 01:15:00.680
now versus then. Like if you watch this movie,

01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:02.659
you'll just be sitting there going, who the fuck

01:15:02.659 --> 01:15:04.779
greenlit this? Right. It's a very good American

01:15:04.779 --> 01:15:08.579
jallow. But like it's all shot in actual clubs

01:15:08.579 --> 01:15:12.199
with real stuff going on. Oh, wow. It's insanity.

01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.159
But he's another guy who did whatever he felt

01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:19.140
like doing. Yeah. At his own detriment sometimes

01:15:19.140 --> 01:15:21.399
because the tape changed. But it holds up time.

01:15:21.789 --> 01:15:23.750
but by now everyone's like oh they're great but

01:15:23.750 --> 01:15:25.890
it was good he stuck to his principles and made

01:15:25.890 --> 01:15:28.810
some good art but yeah i'm very excited about

01:15:28.810 --> 01:15:30.550
this book and i appreciate you doing this with

01:15:30.550 --> 01:15:32.909
us oh my pleasure this has been this has been

01:15:32.909 --> 01:15:35.670
like the most fun podcast i've done so this is

01:15:35.670 --> 01:15:38.810
terrific yes i love hearing that this is where

01:15:38.810 --> 01:15:42.270
i go that's not saying much no i i mean i enjoy

01:15:42.270 --> 01:15:44.250
every podcast but now this is fun to talk about

01:15:44.250 --> 01:15:46.729
this stuff and and um I definitely going to check

01:15:46.729 --> 01:15:48.670
these films out. You need to have you seen a

01:15:48.670 --> 01:15:50.350
movie called The Man From Nowhere? I'm just going

01:15:50.350 --> 01:15:52.270
to throw a totally different thing. It's a Korean

01:15:52.270 --> 01:15:56.430
film. No, I don't. I'm since you gave me these

01:15:56.430 --> 01:15:58.470
you gave me these pearls. I'm begging you to

01:15:58.470 --> 01:16:01.729
watch The Man From Nowhere. If you like gray

01:16:01.729 --> 01:16:03.989
man stuff, it is it is sort of what I wanted

01:16:03.989 --> 01:16:08.130
the gray man to be film wise and. Fortunately

01:16:08.130 --> 01:16:10.369
for me, I wrote The Grey Man before this movie

01:16:10.369 --> 01:16:12.970
came out because it involves like an ex -assassin

01:16:12.970 --> 01:16:16.569
who's protecting a young girl. But if you watch

01:16:16.569 --> 01:16:19.390
this film, and I really hope you do, give it

01:16:19.390 --> 01:16:21.689
15 minutes because the first 15 minutes, it feels

01:16:21.689 --> 01:16:23.449
like it's going to be kind of funnier and more

01:16:23.449 --> 01:16:28.090
lighthearted than it is, but it is. It's got

01:16:28.090 --> 01:16:31.069
the action. It's got the heart and soul and it's

01:16:31.069 --> 01:16:34.649
it's got the the premise. It gets it goes dark

01:16:34.649 --> 01:16:37.109
in ways where you're going like, oh my God, they

01:16:37.109 --> 01:16:39.430
can't possibly be doing that. You know, it's

01:16:39.430 --> 01:16:42.329
a very good film. I hope you like it. The Man

01:16:42.329 --> 01:16:44.949
From Nowhere came out in 2009. OK, yeah, I'll

01:16:44.949 --> 01:16:48.510
check that out. I love it. Foreign countries

01:16:48.510 --> 01:16:51.090
can get away with more stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:16:51.489 --> 01:16:54.329
Hollywood productions can for sure. Yeah. Thank

01:16:54.329 --> 01:16:56.310
you again for doing this. Hey, my pleasure, guys.