You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on
Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome
to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I'm Hannah Walker
and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Today with me I have fantastic
guest Rick Casale and Rick is the co -founder
and trustee of UK climate action charity Carbon
Copy. Today Rick's going to talk to us about
his book, Civic Revolution, Citizen's Guide,
which is about the power of collective local
action to address climate and nature crisis.
Rick is enthusiastic about disruptive innovation
for social and environmental good. He's also
studied renewable energy with the European Institute
of Innovation and Technology and Urbanism at
the London School of Economics and Political
Science. Rick has lived in various cities across
the world, including London, New York, Budapest
and Melilla. So welcome to Rick today. Thank
you for joining. Thank you very much, Hannah.
That's a lovely warm introduction. Very much
looking forward to our conversation right now.
Super. So, Rick, let's get straight to the book,
OK? In your book is called Civic Revolution.
What does a civic revolution actually look like
in practice? Tell us a little bit about the book
and what you're talking about. Well, I wrote
this book about six years ago now, and essentially
it's a call to arms for people who want to make
life better in their local community. And if
you take a step back, As individuals, I think
it's helpful for us to recognize that we play
multiple roles. You know, we are consumers, we
are citizens, we're professionals, community
members, some of us are parents. And I think
too often our role gets relegated to consumers.
And admittedly, there is a lot that we can do
in the role of consuming, both in terms of how
we consume and how much we consume, but there's
a lot of other things we can do in our other
roles. The premise of the book is really to look
at the role that we can all play as citizens.
And citizens is literally nothing more or nothing
less than a person who belongs to a particular
place. And so if you think about that simple
definition, it's a role that you can play, I
can play, everybody around us can play, all our
listeners. And that shapes our collective behavior
locally. So the notion of civic revolution is
simply one where we all become much more actively
engaged in the communities that we live in and
that we are part of. And in doing so, we make
the world around us a better place. We do see
ourselves as consumers, citizens, parents, professional
people, and it's that. that local action though,
isn't it? That connection, that creating something
that we have in common, isn't it? Very much so,
yeah. Having that kind of powerful lever. How
do we respond to that in terms of tackling the
climate crisis, if you like? That's a big question
actually, because there's several components
to it. One which, as you mentioned, is around
this idea of the importance of local action,
and then also how that can be a lever. So if
I kind of unpackage that a little bit and talk
first of all about the local action piece, where
I'm coming from and where carbon copy is coming
from as a charity is we very much believe in
the importance of local action as a key level
of action in addressing the climate crisis. We
need action at all levels. We need it at an individual
behavior change level. We need it in terms of
systemic change. And too often we miss this middle
layer. between the individual and between sort
of the national and the international. And local
is where these two different scales of action
come together. And I think it's important to
recognize things happen at a local level that
are different. It's not simply the cascading
of national policy, and neither is it simply
the sum of individual actions. There's something
very different about collective local action.
And actually, I think back to We contributed
to a really great report that New Local, which
is another charity did, that was looking at communities
versus climate action and communities in the
broadest sense of all stakeholder groups within
a space that have a shared sense of belonging.
And what was a really powerful finding from this
piece of research is that the different levels
of action play different roles. And local, very
specifically, is very strong in terms of legitimacy,
in terms of people accepting what goes on at
a local level more readily, for instance, than
say international. And it's very strong in terms
of the ability to adapt, because adaptation is
intensely local. And so whereas if you think
about mitigation and what you can do over prevention,
that tends to be something that's more led or
more effective at an international or national
level. And if you think about responsiveness,
that's something that you can do very much more
so individually. But local is where you have
some different things happening, and therefore
that's why it plays a really important role in
the mix. So that's kind of a long -winded answer
around kind of local action. I think also another
really important thing to emphasize is the idea
of collective action as well. When we think about
local action, it isn't just simply the sum of
what individuals are doing or the sum of what
happens at the household level. It's the actual
coming together of people in groups, across different
organizations, across different sectors, in order
to collectively shape what's happening in the
shared space and places where people live and
work. And that's pretty powerful. And there's
things that you can clearly do collectively that
you can't do individually. So, for example, getting
involved in, say, a community energy project
to generate renewable energy, you know, a library
of things or other kind of collective initiatives
that are driving a local circular economy, or,
for instance, looking after a shared green space
in your urban area or in your urban neighborhood.
These are the things that require people to come
together. And they have very often a more tangible
and lasting impact. And that's quite motivating
for those involved. And it's quite motivating
for those people that may be considering joining
in. And that's where it can be quite a powerful
lever, because it can really help individuals
to take that next step and get more involved.
And it can also help nationally in terms of thinking
about policy and policy implementation, because
policy implementation happens. It's a place based.
thing. It doesn't kind of happen in the ether.
So this is where policy gets implemented. Local
action is this powerful bridge between almost
like these two ends of a spectrum. The one end
of the spectrum is individual and the other end
of the spectrum is national or international
policy. And so it plays a very powerful place
in the mix. But we need all those levels. Like
you, I've worked across many local communities
throughout most of my career and I have seen
what sort of that grassroots action, whether
it's collective, individual, local, what it can
do and what power, I kind of believe that power
starts at that grassroots level. But not all
communities are good at it, or some communities
are better at it than others. There are some
groups and some I mean, you mentioned green spaces.
I mean, you can use kind of community action
to talk about school crossings. You can use community
action to talk about better housing, whether
people keep their post office, whether people
keep their police stations, whether people keep
their green park from development, etc. There
are huge variances, aren't there, across the
UK, across our society. And we were talking about
the UK today, mainly. What is it that makes communities
succeed. You've talked about the combination
of collective, local and individual action, but
what does success look like for all of that to
kind of come together and take action, particularly
regarding climate? Fantastic question and a really
difficult question to answer, but I will do so.
But just as a bit of a preamble, one of the things
that we're quite fortunate a place to be in a
carbon copy is we've had lots of people from
lots of different organizations share their climate
action stories on our website. That's one of
the things that we're known for is we've essentially
got a really rich national collection of stories.
We've got, I think, over 700 now. It's interesting
to look at the different patterns depending on
how you slice and dice all the different stories.
So there isn't necessarily one single way or
solution, which is kind of what you would expect.
And partly that depends on where you are on your
journey. So there's lots of variables in that
mix. So are you just starting out? Are you part
way through? Is it a project that you wish to
expand in some way? So one is just kind of like,
where are you in your project implementation?
And then sort of where are you around the UK?
Is it urban? an environment, is it rural? That
makes quite a big difference. What are the kinds
of communities that you're living in or that
are involved? That also makes another difference.
So in some ways finding out what some of those
success factors are depends a little bit on where
you are in your journey and therefore what the
next step could look like and where you would
need some help. But what we've done is, and this
is some exciting news, so it's great that you're
asking me this question now, we've just completed
a big piece of research where we commissioned
UNOMIA to answer essentially the question that
you've just asked me, which is to find out how
some local climate initiatives achieve such remarkable
impact. What we did is a combination of both
going out there, identifying successful projects,
doing 360 degree interviews with lots of different
stakeholders. We also did a big quantitative
piece as well so we can substantiate the patterns
and synthesize the information. So we feel pretty
good about what's going to come out of this.
I think we've found to some extent this secret
source about how groups or organizations can
make the biggest impact collectively but importantly
without money being the main limiting factor.
because it's easy enough if you've got a large
pot of money to make things happen. The challenge
that we all have is that we don't have necessarily
sufficient funds to do what we want to do. So
knowing that that's potentially, or it is an
important factor, but how can we work within
the constraints, whatever funding we have available,
to still have an impact? It's a free report.
It's called From Footprint to Change Print. and
it's going to be available on our website for
anybody to come and download it. The website
is carboncopy .eco. So I would encourage people
to just be the first to access that report. That
essentially is where you can get into a lot of
the richness and probably answer some of the
questions in a lot more detail that we have time
for now. Tell me, you've said something that's
actually quite phenomenal. The report, fascinating,
but you just before Before that, you mentioned
that you had 700 climate stories on your website.
How have you managed to collect those climate
stories? That's a tremendous amount of information.
And is that what then sparks your work? And didn't
you get the climate stories? I mean, 700, huge
amounts. We're not talking dozens, hundreds of
stories from people. And give me an example.
Yes, so it is an unusually large number of stories
and therefore I think it should be very valuable
to almost anybody or everybody because there
will be at least several examples that I can
relate to. That is the hope and that was the
intent of trying to create a really big collection.
We started off very small, obviously. We did
a couple of things. We were very deliberate in
trying to identify different kinds of stories
across different kinds of action areas. Because
again, depending on what makes sense for you
in your local area, you might be interested in
doing something related to renewable energy,
or it could be related to food growing or circular
economy or transport or a nature project. So
we wanted to be very widespread in the different
kinds of projects that we wanted to bring on
board. We created a self, and this is really
important, a self -publishing platform. So we
wanted people to share their stories in their
own voice, which was really important, and we
asked those people, and these people are the
people that are involved in the projects, to
share what advice they would give other people
that wanted to do something similar. Because
that's really rich, and the feedback that we
get is that people want to learn from other people
about as much what not to do, as what to do and
so this is a very honest space where people have
come together shared their achievements but also
given some valuable tips about what other people
should do and this is behind the idea of the
charity you know our name is carbon copy and
we really believe that copying these success
stories is going to be one of the fastest ways
for us to scale up and so we essentially built
this out the self -publishing platform helps
because it means that we aren't a bottleneck.
People are basically sharing their stories and
coming forward. It's very easy to publish. And
because we've got this critical mass, it's becoming
increasingly useful for lots of people to say,
well, I would like to see this kind of project
either geographically close to me or involving
communities like mine or organizations of a similar
size to me. So again you can look at it in different
ways to identify some projects that are maybe
one step ahead of you and therefore that's very
valuable. Getting back to that idea of where
are you on your journey, what kind of help do
you need and where's the proof points of people
that have gone before me and succeeded and maybe
what they should look out for or what they should
do differently. So that's where we are and that's
a real asset and again that's just on the website
and we encourage people to you know just really
explore that and enjoy. the very positive stories
that are being shared. The one thing that I find
personally is that this space of addressing the
climate crisis can be quite tough, as we know,
for various reasons. However, what we see in
terms of the stories that are shared in terms
of collective local action is a very uplifting
narrative because people are basically just getting
on with it. And yes, there are barriers to overcome,
et cetera, et cetera. But nonetheless, I think
action and that sense of agency is really empowering.
And so you are reading all these countless stories
of people coming together and achieving real
things. And they are very copyable. So the idea
of, well, it's really small and the house is
going to make a difference to something as large
scale as the climate. I challenge that narrative.
Because you are able to scale by copying. You're
able to scale by sharing. And that's the essence
of what we are sharing are things that other
people can then just take and run with. And are
you using these stories, presumably you are,
with the report you've showcased, just highlighted,
from footprint to change print, did you say?
Yes. Are you using these stories to help you
influence policy? Because... There is obviously
this question around, is the action coming from
people? And because most people do care about
climate, most people understand that something
is happening to our climate. Maybe the science
is a little bit complicated and we've yet to
talk about how scientists, how we can adjust
that language to make it more accessible. But
are you using those stories to influence policy
because 700 people, that's, you know, that's,
that's no small number and carbon copy. is presumably
helping to shape what happens for the future
and in terms of influencing government policy.
Is that what you're doing? We are to a certain
extent. The body of evidence is pretty powerful
and we like to think that it helps influence
certainly positive upward pressure in terms of
thinking about national policy and also creating
a sense of a new social norm. that's ideally
what we want is we want mass adoption so this
idea that this isn't unusual behavior but it
feels very commonplace is a pretty powerful underlying
message to send out but in terms of who's actively
using these stories to for instance influence
policy that's something that you know we would
give up to other organizations that are more
in the policy think tank area so again it's a
resource that we make available to those people
to do Depends which way they're facing, whether
they're facing, if you like, more towards government
and Westminster and influencing policy, or whether
they're facing more towards what can we do in
our local area? And give me an example of what
success could look like. So we're basically looking
in two directions, or hopefully we're serving
people that are looking both in both directions.
I think in terms of ambition, though, if anything,
we see a lot of evidence that at a local level
that's more ambitious rather than what we see
at national and we kind of see that through for
instance you know the citizens assemblies and
what comes out of that and what people are looking
for and what would they aspire to see you know
we see that in just the sheer number of local
authority areas that have net zero targets of
2030 or 2040 compared to the national 2050. Now
there's a separate question that we need to address,
which is they're still very challenged to arrive
at that. And that's a very, very difficult target
to aim for. But nonetheless, the fact that you
have those ambitious targets in the first place
points to the fact that at a local level, there
is very much still a lot of appetite for moving
together and moving faster than you either see
nationally or that you are hearing on occasion
in the media. and I think it's exciting to see
that ambition because essentially it means from
a national perspective you're pushing against
an open door and in many ways the government
is perhaps playing a bit of a catch -up in terms
of what people and some of the local authorities
want to see, but we need both. You're right,
we have got these very ambitious targets, we've
got 2030, we've got I think NHS 2045, we've got
2050 targets, indeed very, very ambitious but
so what's your view on this backlash, if you
like, on on the net zero or at least the phrase
net zero or should we be changing that terminology
altogether is it just a is it just a word phrase
it's turned into a little bit of a hot potato
hasn't it um net net zero has always been a policy
metric to my mind and not a means of engaging
the wider public and so i agree with lorraine
whitmarsh you've probably come across, I'm sure
lots of your listeners have. We spoke to her
on our podcast actually. And she's been a previous
guest, exactly. And she was doing something for
I think the environmental audit committee back
in January and she was saying you know net zero
is a technocratic phrase that doesn't resonate
widely with the public and is starting to polarize
opinion. And some of the evidence that she gave
to that committee is that net zero itself is
down to around 50 percent of support whereas
co -benefits, which is basically jargon for all
the other benefits apart from reducing carbon
emissions, is still up at almost 80%. And so
the issue to my mind with net zero is that it's
psychologically distant. It's like the climate
crisis itself. The gap between achievements in
net zero gains and improvements in our daily
lives is too big for us to equate one with the
other. And at the same time, unfortunately, this
is where it's becoming polarizing, there's this
association of net zero with a sense of sacrifice,
loss avoidance, you know, is something that everybody
guards against. And so I think it's a very difficult
lead in terms of messaging to have net zero.
And so it's fundamentally too reductionist. It's
looking at just carbon reductions and it's overlooking
all the other positive benefits from taking climate
action. and that you know you mentioned before
and the name of the report involves from footprint
to change print and change print is this term
that we are using to talk about all the positive
impacts that happen when you take collective
local action because I think it's really important
to give more visibility above and beyond reducing
carbon emissions if we want to engage the wider
public. and I think that's therefore, if you
like, the drawback of net zero. It's something
that certainly has a role to play. It's a very
useful policy metric. It's something that organizations
can and that they are doing, measuring in terms
of scope one, two, three, because it is very
one -dimensional and therefore it's easier to
measure. But it's certainly not the whole story
and it's certainly not the right way to make
an emotional connection with people whom you're
asking to make. some pretty big behavior changes.
Exactly. At Salix, we work a lot across the public
sector and we work across housing across the
UK. It's very important that measurement and
verification is obviously important because it
proves that we're making a difference. But so
much is about the comfort it brings and the modernization
and being able to kind of future proof our housing,
our building, the buildings that we use every
day, whether it's our libraries. leisure centres,
etc. And so you're right, it's about that messaging
and emphasis that we put on it. We need to measure,
we need to make sure we get those carbon figures
that we require, but it's actually about how
we fill in our pockets as well, isn't it? Obviously
our bills and our comforts, particularly in our
own homes. Yes, and I think a way that we can
think about reframing this a little bit is quite
often all that other stuff has got this jargony
term of co -benefits. And that kind of assumes
that the primary motivation is reducing carbon
emissions. And then you've got all these sort
of incidental benefits on the side. I think it's
important to kind of lose that co -benefit tag
because for many people, they're the primary
benefit or they're the primary motivation for
getting involved. So, you know, you talk to people
about warmer homes. And that's the motivation.
And what things do I need to do to insulate my
homes, et cetera, to reduce my expensive energy
bills? That's the entry point for people to get
more involved. And the co -benefit, the incidental
benefit, is it reduces carbon emissions. So in
many ways, we need to flip that. If we want to
get more of the broader people involved, people
outside of the eco bubble, you have to think
about what's in it for them in their daily lives.
And that's how we talk. about the things that
make sense to them and by the way they have a
benefit in terms of reducing carbon emissions
and they also will probably have a benefit hopefully
in terms of positive impact on nature. Thank
you. Thank you very much to Rick Cassell today
for joining us. Rick Cassell from Carbon Copy,
who's a co -founder and trustee of the UK Climate
Action Charity and for talking to us about the
report from Footprint, Changeprint, fascinating
work. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast
channels and email us with your views. We'd love
to hear them at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk.
Big thanks to Rick today. Thank you very much
Hannah. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. You've
been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. For more information about
our work and to find more content, please visit
salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.