WEBVTT 00:00:06.990 --> 00:00:10.529 You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, 00:00:10.849 --> 00:00:14.570 a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on 00:00:14.570 --> 00:00:17.289 Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome 00:00:17.289 --> 00:00:20.129 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I'm Hannah Walker 00:00:20.129 --> 00:00:22.170 and I believe that the best way to communicate 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:24.710 a message is by being passionate about what you 00:00:24.710 --> 00:00:27.910 are talking about. Today with me I have fantastic 00:00:27.910 --> 00:00:30.969 guest Rick Casale and Rick is the co -founder 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:34.049 and trustee of UK climate action charity Carbon 00:00:34.049 --> 00:00:36.530 Copy. Today Rick's going to talk to us about 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:39.570 his book, Civic Revolution, Citizen's Guide, 00:00:39.869 --> 00:00:41.689 which is about the power of collective local 00:00:41.689 --> 00:00:44.729 action to address climate and nature crisis. 00:00:45.149 --> 00:00:48.329 Rick is enthusiastic about disruptive innovation 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:51.329 for social and environmental good. He's also 00:00:51.329 --> 00:00:53.570 studied renewable energy with the European Institute 00:00:53.570 --> 00:00:56.710 of Innovation and Technology and Urbanism at 00:00:56.710 --> 00:00:58.570 the London School of Economics and Political 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:01.590 Science. Rick has lived in various cities across 00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:04.549 the world, including London, New York, Budapest 00:01:04.549 --> 00:01:08.250 and Melilla. So welcome to Rick today. Thank 00:01:08.250 --> 00:01:09.450 you for joining. Thank you very much, Hannah. 00:01:09.530 --> 00:01:12.069 That's a lovely warm introduction. Very much 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:14.290 looking forward to our conversation right now. 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:17.560 Super. So, Rick, let's get straight to the book, 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:21.799 OK? In your book is called Civic Revolution. 00:01:22.659 --> 00:01:25.739 What does a civic revolution actually look like 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:28.040 in practice? Tell us a little bit about the book 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:30.480 and what you're talking about. Well, I wrote 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.319 this book about six years ago now, and essentially 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:37.480 it's a call to arms for people who want to make 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:41.459 life better in their local community. And if 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:43.579 you take a step back, As individuals, I think 00:01:43.579 --> 00:01:46.239 it's helpful for us to recognize that we play 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.900 multiple roles. You know, we are consumers, we 00:01:49.900 --> 00:01:53.079 are citizens, we're professionals, community 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:56.079 members, some of us are parents. And I think 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.200 too often our role gets relegated to consumers. 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.959 And admittedly, there is a lot that we can do 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.599 in the role of consuming, both in terms of how 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:08.919 we consume and how much we consume, but there's 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:11.919 a lot of other things we can do in our other 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:15.000 roles. The premise of the book is really to look 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.080 at the role that we can all play as citizens. 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.699 And citizens is literally nothing more or nothing 00:02:21.699 --> 00:02:24.699 less than a person who belongs to a particular 00:02:24.699 --> 00:02:27.379 place. And so if you think about that simple 00:02:27.379 --> 00:02:30.139 definition, it's a role that you can play, I 00:02:30.139 --> 00:02:32.199 can play, everybody around us can play, all our 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.240 listeners. And that shapes our collective behavior 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.800 locally. So the notion of civic revolution is 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.000 simply one where we all become much more actively 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.400 engaged in the communities that we live in and 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.060 that we are part of. And in doing so, we make 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:52.060 the world around us a better place. We do see 00:02:52.060 --> 00:02:55.340 ourselves as consumers, citizens, parents, professional 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:58.800 people, and it's that. that local action though, 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:02.300 isn't it? That connection, that creating something 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:05.319 that we have in common, isn't it? Very much so, 00:03:05.460 --> 00:03:07.439 yeah. Having that kind of powerful lever. How 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.919 do we respond to that in terms of tackling the 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.340 climate crisis, if you like? That's a big question 00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:15.759 actually, because there's several components 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.659 to it. One which, as you mentioned, is around 00:03:17.659 --> 00:03:19.960 this idea of the importance of local action, 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.780 and then also how that can be a lever. So if 00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:25.099 I kind of unpackage that a little bit and talk 00:03:25.099 --> 00:03:28.000 first of all about the local action piece, where 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.199 I'm coming from and where carbon copy is coming 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:32.860 from as a charity is we very much believe in 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:36.580 the importance of local action as a key level 00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:39.439 of action in addressing the climate crisis. We 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:43.039 need action at all levels. We need it at an individual 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.680 behavior change level. We need it in terms of 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:50.539 systemic change. And too often we miss this middle 00:03:50.539 --> 00:03:53.580 layer. between the individual and between sort 00:03:53.580 --> 00:03:56.539 of the national and the international. And local 00:03:56.539 --> 00:04:00.099 is where these two different scales of action 00:04:00.099 --> 00:04:02.520 come together. And I think it's important to 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.180 recognize things happen at a local level that 00:04:05.180 --> 00:04:08.159 are different. It's not simply the cascading 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.620 of national policy, and neither is it simply 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:15.460 the sum of individual actions. There's something 00:04:15.460 --> 00:04:18.399 very different about collective local action. 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.069 And actually, I think back to We contributed 00:04:22.069 --> 00:04:25.129 to a really great report that New Local, which 00:04:25.129 --> 00:04:28.310 is another charity did, that was looking at communities 00:04:28.310 --> 00:04:32.209 versus climate action and communities in the 00:04:32.209 --> 00:04:35.670 broadest sense of all stakeholder groups within 00:04:35.670 --> 00:04:37.990 a space that have a shared sense of belonging. 00:04:38.529 --> 00:04:40.910 And what was a really powerful finding from this 00:04:40.910 --> 00:04:43.850 piece of research is that the different levels 00:04:43.850 --> 00:04:48.230 of action play different roles. And local, very 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:51.759 specifically, is very strong in terms of legitimacy, 00:04:52.500 --> 00:04:55.100 in terms of people accepting what goes on at 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:57.519 a local level more readily, for instance, than 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:01.120 say international. And it's very strong in terms 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.899 of the ability to adapt, because adaptation is 00:05:05.899 --> 00:05:09.019 intensely local. And so whereas if you think 00:05:09.019 --> 00:05:12.060 about mitigation and what you can do over prevention, 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.339 that tends to be something that's more led or 00:05:15.339 --> 00:05:17.519 more effective at an international or national 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:20.129 level. And if you think about responsiveness, 00:05:20.769 --> 00:05:22.790 that's something that you can do very much more 00:05:22.790 --> 00:05:26.889 so individually. But local is where you have 00:05:26.889 --> 00:05:29.310 some different things happening, and therefore 00:05:29.310 --> 00:05:31.810 that's why it plays a really important role in 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:34.089 the mix. So that's kind of a long -winded answer 00:05:34.089 --> 00:05:37.230 around kind of local action. I think also another 00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:40.589 really important thing to emphasize is the idea 00:05:40.589 --> 00:05:43.740 of collective action as well. When we think about 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:46.120 local action, it isn't just simply the sum of 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.660 what individuals are doing or the sum of what 00:05:48.660 --> 00:05:51.420 happens at the household level. It's the actual 00:05:51.420 --> 00:05:55.420 coming together of people in groups, across different 00:05:55.420 --> 00:05:58.740 organizations, across different sectors, in order 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:02.779 to collectively shape what's happening in the 00:06:02.779 --> 00:06:05.240 shared space and places where people live and 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:07.600 work. And that's pretty powerful. And there's 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.680 things that you can clearly do collectively that 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.639 you can't do individually. So, for example, getting 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:14.899 involved in, say, a community energy project 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:18.860 to generate renewable energy, you know, a library 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:21.459 of things or other kind of collective initiatives 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:24.420 that are driving a local circular economy, or, 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:26.779 for instance, looking after a shared green space 00:06:26.779 --> 00:06:30.019 in your urban area or in your urban neighborhood. 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:33.459 These are the things that require people to come 00:06:33.459 --> 00:06:37.379 together. And they have very often a more tangible 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:40.459 and lasting impact. And that's quite motivating 00:06:40.459 --> 00:06:42.300 for those involved. And it's quite motivating 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:45.399 for those people that may be considering joining 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:48.420 in. And that's where it can be quite a powerful 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:52.100 lever, because it can really help individuals 00:06:52.100 --> 00:06:54.759 to take that next step and get more involved. 00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:57.779 And it can also help nationally in terms of thinking 00:06:57.779 --> 00:07:00.779 about policy and policy implementation, because 00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:03.639 policy implementation happens. It's a place based. 00:07:03.850 --> 00:07:06.870 thing. It doesn't kind of happen in the ether. 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:11.029 So this is where policy gets implemented. Local 00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:13.470 action is this powerful bridge between almost 00:07:13.470 --> 00:07:16.050 like these two ends of a spectrum. The one end 00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:17.790 of the spectrum is individual and the other end 00:07:17.790 --> 00:07:20.329 of the spectrum is national or international 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:22.870 policy. And so it plays a very powerful place 00:07:22.870 --> 00:07:26.910 in the mix. But we need all those levels. Like 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:30.230 you, I've worked across many local communities 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:33.569 throughout most of my career and I have seen 00:07:33.790 --> 00:07:37.589 what sort of that grassroots action, whether 00:07:37.589 --> 00:07:40.329 it's collective, individual, local, what it can 00:07:40.329 --> 00:07:43.230 do and what power, I kind of believe that power 00:07:43.230 --> 00:07:46.370 starts at that grassroots level. But not all 00:07:46.370 --> 00:07:50.089 communities are good at it, or some communities 00:07:50.089 --> 00:07:52.410 are better at it than others. There are some 00:07:52.410 --> 00:07:56.079 groups and some I mean, you mentioned green spaces. 00:07:56.459 --> 00:07:58.519 I mean, you can use kind of community action 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.620 to talk about school crossings. You can use community 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:04.379 action to talk about better housing, whether 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:06.120 people keep their post office, whether people 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:08.779 keep their police stations, whether people keep 00:08:08.779 --> 00:08:12.319 their green park from development, etc. There 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:16.579 are huge variances, aren't there, across the 00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:18.439 UK, across our society. And we were talking about 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:23.519 the UK today, mainly. What is it that makes communities 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.040 succeed. You've talked about the combination 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:29.319 of collective, local and individual action, but 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.759 what does success look like for all of that to 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:35.539 kind of come together and take action, particularly 00:08:35.539 --> 00:08:39.279 regarding climate? Fantastic question and a really 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.799 difficult question to answer, but I will do so. 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:45.820 But just as a bit of a preamble, one of the things 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:48.610 that we're quite fortunate a place to be in a 00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:51.129 carbon copy is we've had lots of people from 00:08:51.129 --> 00:08:55.029 lots of different organizations share their climate 00:08:55.029 --> 00:08:59.509 action stories on our website. That's one of 00:08:59.509 --> 00:09:01.750 the things that we're known for is we've essentially 00:09:01.750 --> 00:09:04.809 got a really rich national collection of stories. 00:09:05.250 --> 00:09:09.129 We've got, I think, over 700 now. It's interesting 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:12.830 to look at the different patterns depending on 00:09:12.830 --> 00:09:16.450 how you slice and dice all the different stories. 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:21.289 So there isn't necessarily one single way or 00:09:21.289 --> 00:09:23.429 solution, which is kind of what you would expect. 00:09:24.110 --> 00:09:27.809 And partly that depends on where you are on your 00:09:27.809 --> 00:09:30.889 journey. So there's lots of variables in that 00:09:30.889 --> 00:09:33.330 mix. So are you just starting out? Are you part 00:09:33.330 --> 00:09:36.169 way through? Is it a project that you wish to 00:09:36.169 --> 00:09:38.730 expand in some way? So one is just kind of like, 00:09:38.950 --> 00:09:41.110 where are you in your project implementation? 00:09:41.950 --> 00:09:44.450 And then sort of where are you around the UK? 00:09:44.830 --> 00:09:48.100 Is it urban? an environment, is it rural? That 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:50.539 makes quite a big difference. What are the kinds 00:09:50.539 --> 00:09:53.139 of communities that you're living in or that 00:09:53.139 --> 00:09:55.899 are involved? That also makes another difference. 00:09:56.500 --> 00:09:59.840 So in some ways finding out what some of those 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:02.299 success factors are depends a little bit on where 00:10:02.299 --> 00:10:04.019 you are in your journey and therefore what the 00:10:04.019 --> 00:10:06.720 next step could look like and where you would 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.840 need some help. But what we've done is, and this 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.320 is some exciting news, so it's great that you're 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.399 asking me this question now, we've just completed 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.620 a big piece of research where we commissioned 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.639 UNOMIA to answer essentially the question that 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.879 you've just asked me, which is to find out how 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:29.320 some local climate initiatives achieve such remarkable 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:33.539 impact. What we did is a combination of both 00:10:33.539 --> 00:10:36.340 going out there, identifying successful projects, 00:10:36.750 --> 00:10:39.490 doing 360 degree interviews with lots of different 00:10:39.490 --> 00:10:42.210 stakeholders. We also did a big quantitative 00:10:42.210 --> 00:10:46.230 piece as well so we can substantiate the patterns 00:10:46.230 --> 00:10:49.789 and synthesize the information. So we feel pretty 00:10:49.789 --> 00:10:52.110 good about what's going to come out of this. 00:10:52.450 --> 00:10:54.590 I think we've found to some extent this secret 00:10:54.590 --> 00:10:58.289 source about how groups or organizations can 00:10:58.289 --> 00:11:01.889 make the biggest impact collectively but importantly 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:04.629 without money being the main limiting factor. 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:07.860 because it's easy enough if you've got a large 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:10.980 pot of money to make things happen. The challenge 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:14.620 that we all have is that we don't have necessarily 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:17.539 sufficient funds to do what we want to do. So 00:11:17.539 --> 00:11:20.159 knowing that that's potentially, or it is an 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.259 important factor, but how can we work within 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:24.980 the constraints, whatever funding we have available, 00:11:25.419 --> 00:11:28.279 to still have an impact? It's a free report. 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:33.080 It's called From Footprint to Change Print. and 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.899 it's going to be available on our website for 00:11:35.899 --> 00:11:38.379 anybody to come and download it. The website 00:11:38.379 --> 00:11:44.120 is carboncopy .eco. So I would encourage people 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:48.179 to just be the first to access that report. That 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:49.840 essentially is where you can get into a lot of 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.159 the richness and probably answer some of the 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.139 questions in a lot more detail that we have time 00:11:54.139 --> 00:11:56.460 for now. Tell me, you've said something that's 00:11:56.460 --> 00:11:59.899 actually quite phenomenal. The report, fascinating, 00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:01.700 but you just before Before that, you mentioned 00:12:01.700 --> 00:12:06.179 that you had 700 climate stories on your website. 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:09.080 How have you managed to collect those climate 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.600 stories? That's a tremendous amount of information. 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.759 And is that what then sparks your work? And didn't 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:18.320 you get the climate stories? I mean, 700, huge 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.940 amounts. We're not talking dozens, hundreds of 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:25.139 stories from people. And give me an example. 00:12:26.139 --> 00:12:30.419 Yes, so it is an unusually large number of stories 00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:32.779 and therefore I think it should be very valuable 00:12:32.779 --> 00:12:35.639 to almost anybody or everybody because there 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.779 will be at least several examples that I can 00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:42.360 relate to. That is the hope and that was the 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:45.840 intent of trying to create a really big collection. 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.429 We started off very small, obviously. We did 00:12:49.429 --> 00:12:52.090 a couple of things. We were very deliberate in 00:12:52.090 --> 00:12:54.870 trying to identify different kinds of stories 00:12:54.870 --> 00:12:57.649 across different kinds of action areas. Because 00:12:57.649 --> 00:13:00.149 again, depending on what makes sense for you 00:13:00.149 --> 00:13:02.590 in your local area, you might be interested in 00:13:02.590 --> 00:13:04.570 doing something related to renewable energy, 00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:07.990 or it could be related to food growing or circular 00:13:07.990 --> 00:13:11.850 economy or transport or a nature project. So 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:15.230 we wanted to be very widespread in the different 00:13:15.230 --> 00:13:17.710 kinds of projects that we wanted to bring on 00:13:17.710 --> 00:13:20.129 board. We created a self, and this is really 00:13:20.129 --> 00:13:23.230 important, a self -publishing platform. So we 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:26.090 wanted people to share their stories in their 00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:29.610 own voice, which was really important, and we 00:13:29.610 --> 00:13:31.909 asked those people, and these people are the 00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:34.049 people that are involved in the projects, to 00:13:34.049 --> 00:13:36.710 share what advice they would give other people 00:13:36.710 --> 00:13:39.549 that wanted to do something similar. Because 00:13:39.549 --> 00:13:41.850 that's really rich, and the feedback that we 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:45.850 get is that people want to learn from other people 00:13:45.850 --> 00:13:49.490 about as much what not to do, as what to do and 00:13:49.490 --> 00:13:51.570 so this is a very honest space where people have 00:13:51.570 --> 00:13:54.409 come together shared their achievements but also 00:13:54.409 --> 00:13:56.570 given some valuable tips about what other people 00:13:56.570 --> 00:14:00.129 should do and this is behind the idea of the 00:14:00.129 --> 00:14:03.289 charity you know our name is carbon copy and 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:06.570 we really believe that copying these success 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:08.490 stories is going to be one of the fastest ways 00:14:08.490 --> 00:14:11.409 for us to scale up and so we essentially built 00:14:11.409 --> 00:14:13.590 this out the self -publishing platform helps 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:16.409 because it means that we aren't a bottleneck. 00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:18.629 People are basically sharing their stories and 00:14:18.629 --> 00:14:22.029 coming forward. It's very easy to publish. And 00:14:22.029 --> 00:14:24.870 because we've got this critical mass, it's becoming 00:14:24.870 --> 00:14:27.750 increasingly useful for lots of people to say, 00:14:27.830 --> 00:14:29.750 well, I would like to see this kind of project 00:14:29.750 --> 00:14:33.230 either geographically close to me or involving 00:14:33.230 --> 00:14:36.370 communities like mine or organizations of a similar 00:14:36.370 --> 00:14:39.399 size to me. So again you can look at it in different 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.840 ways to identify some projects that are maybe 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:44.840 one step ahead of you and therefore that's very 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:46.500 valuable. Getting back to that idea of where 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:48.899 are you on your journey, what kind of help do 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:52.639 you need and where's the proof points of people 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.700 that have gone before me and succeeded and maybe 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:56.679 what they should look out for or what they should 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.799 do differently. So that's where we are and that's 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.000 a real asset and again that's just on the website 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.820 and we encourage people to you know just really 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:07.500 explore that and enjoy. the very positive stories 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:10.759 that are being shared. The one thing that I find 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:14.519 personally is that this space of addressing the 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.360 climate crisis can be quite tough, as we know, 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.580 for various reasons. However, what we see in 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:22.779 terms of the stories that are shared in terms 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:26.299 of collective local action is a very uplifting 00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:29.000 narrative because people are basically just getting 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.259 on with it. And yes, there are barriers to overcome, 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:35.059 et cetera, et cetera. But nonetheless, I think 00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:39.139 action and that sense of agency is really empowering. 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.820 And so you are reading all these countless stories 00:15:41.820 --> 00:15:44.720 of people coming together and achieving real 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:49.639 things. And they are very copyable. So the idea 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:51.799 of, well, it's really small and the house is 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.000 going to make a difference to something as large 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.440 scale as the climate. I challenge that narrative. 00:15:58.079 --> 00:16:01.799 Because you are able to scale by copying. You're 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.820 able to scale by sharing. And that's the essence 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:06.980 of what we are sharing are things that other 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:09.860 people can then just take and run with. And are 00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:12.139 you using these stories, presumably you are, 00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:15.919 with the report you've showcased, just highlighted, 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.019 from footprint to change print, did you say? 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:23.039 Yes. Are you using these stories to help you 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.460 influence policy? Because... There is obviously 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:29.299 this question around, is the action coming from 00:16:29.299 --> 00:16:32.360 people? And because most people do care about 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.639 climate, most people understand that something 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:38.320 is happening to our climate. Maybe the science 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.220 is a little bit complicated and we've yet to 00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:42.580 talk about how scientists, how we can adjust 00:16:42.580 --> 00:16:45.059 that language to make it more accessible. But 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.980 are you using those stories to influence policy 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:52.019 because 700 people, that's, you know, that's, 00:16:52.019 --> 00:16:56.710 that's no small number and carbon copy. is presumably 00:16:56.710 --> 00:17:00.809 helping to shape what happens for the future 00:17:00.809 --> 00:17:04.190 and in terms of influencing government policy. 00:17:04.289 --> 00:17:07.589 Is that what you're doing? We are to a certain 00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:10.730 extent. The body of evidence is pretty powerful 00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:14.549 and we like to think that it helps influence 00:17:14.549 --> 00:17:17.390 certainly positive upward pressure in terms of 00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:20.569 thinking about national policy and also creating 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:25.099 a sense of a new social norm. that's ideally 00:17:25.099 --> 00:17:27.740 what we want is we want mass adoption so this 00:17:27.740 --> 00:17:30.579 idea that this isn't unusual behavior but it 00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:34.299 feels very commonplace is a pretty powerful underlying 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:38.960 message to send out but in terms of who's actively 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.700 using these stories to for instance influence 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:44.059 policy that's something that you know we would 00:17:44.059 --> 00:17:47.019 give up to other organizations that are more 00:17:47.019 --> 00:17:50.380 in the policy think tank area so again it's a 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:52.519 resource that we make available to those people 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:54.559 to do Depends which way they're facing, whether 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.059 they're facing, if you like, more towards government 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:00.420 and Westminster and influencing policy, or whether 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:02.559 they're facing more towards what can we do in 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.380 our local area? And give me an example of what 00:18:05.380 --> 00:18:08.579 success could look like. So we're basically looking 00:18:08.579 --> 00:18:12.339 in two directions, or hopefully we're serving 00:18:12.339 --> 00:18:15.660 people that are looking both in both directions. 00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:18.640 I think in terms of ambition, though, if anything, 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.339 we see a lot of evidence that at a local level 00:18:22.339 --> 00:18:25.859 that's more ambitious rather than what we see 00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:28.339 at national and we kind of see that through for 00:18:28.339 --> 00:18:30.700 instance you know the citizens assemblies and 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:32.619 what comes out of that and what people are looking 00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:34.960 for and what would they aspire to see you know 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:39.359 we see that in just the sheer number of local 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.319 authority areas that have net zero targets of 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:47.200 2030 or 2040 compared to the national 2050. Now 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.839 there's a separate question that we need to address, 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:52.220 which is they're still very challenged to arrive 00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:55.400 at that. And that's a very, very difficult target 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:59.200 to aim for. But nonetheless, the fact that you 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.319 have those ambitious targets in the first place 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:05.880 points to the fact that at a local level, there 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:10.180 is very much still a lot of appetite for moving 00:19:10.180 --> 00:19:13.259 together and moving faster than you either see 00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:16.099 nationally or that you are hearing on occasion 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:18.809 in the media. and I think it's exciting to see 00:19:18.809 --> 00:19:20.990 that ambition because essentially it means from 00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:22.809 a national perspective you're pushing against 00:19:22.809 --> 00:19:25.609 an open door and in many ways the government 00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:28.190 is perhaps playing a bit of a catch -up in terms 00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:30.630 of what people and some of the local authorities 00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:33.750 want to see, but we need both. You're right, 00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:35.450 we have got these very ambitious targets, we've 00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:38.529 got 2030, we've got I think NHS 2045, we've got 00:19:38.529 --> 00:19:41.750 2050 targets, indeed very, very ambitious but 00:19:41.750 --> 00:19:44.369 so what's your view on this backlash, if you 00:19:44.369 --> 00:19:47.500 like, on on the net zero or at least the phrase 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.380 net zero or should we be changing that terminology 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:53.700 altogether is it just a is it just a word phrase 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:55.920 it's turned into a little bit of a hot potato 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:00.819 hasn't it um net net zero has always been a policy 00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:04.960 metric to my mind and not a means of engaging 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.759 the wider public and so i agree with lorraine 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:09.980 whitmarsh you've probably come across, I'm sure 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:11.599 lots of your listeners have. We spoke to her 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:13.900 on our podcast actually. And she's been a previous 00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:17.839 guest, exactly. And she was doing something for 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.180 I think the environmental audit committee back 00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.059 in January and she was saying you know net zero 00:20:23.059 --> 00:20:25.599 is a technocratic phrase that doesn't resonate 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.039 widely with the public and is starting to polarize 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:31.240 opinion. And some of the evidence that she gave 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.599 to that committee is that net zero itself is 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.630 down to around 50 percent of support whereas 00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:40.490 co -benefits, which is basically jargon for all 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:42.329 the other benefits apart from reducing carbon 00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:45.789 emissions, is still up at almost 80%. And so 00:20:45.789 --> 00:20:49.390 the issue to my mind with net zero is that it's 00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:51.829 psychologically distant. It's like the climate 00:20:51.829 --> 00:20:55.890 crisis itself. The gap between achievements in 00:20:55.890 --> 00:20:59.150 net zero gains and improvements in our daily 00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:03.930 lives is too big for us to equate one with the 00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:06.720 other. And at the same time, unfortunately, this 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.779 is where it's becoming polarizing, there's this 00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:12.920 association of net zero with a sense of sacrifice, 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:15.519 loss avoidance, you know, is something that everybody 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.960 guards against. And so I think it's a very difficult 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.579 lead in terms of messaging to have net zero. 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:26.960 And so it's fundamentally too reductionist. It's 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.200 looking at just carbon reductions and it's overlooking 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.720 all the other positive benefits from taking climate 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.160 action. and that you know you mentioned before 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.099 and the name of the report involves from footprint 00:21:38.099 --> 00:21:41.440 to change print and change print is this term 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.700 that we are using to talk about all the positive 00:21:44.700 --> 00:21:47.240 impacts that happen when you take collective 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.680 local action because I think it's really important 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.859 to give more visibility above and beyond reducing 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:56.839 carbon emissions if we want to engage the wider 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.740 public. and I think that's therefore, if you 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:01.819 like, the drawback of net zero. It's something 00:22:01.819 --> 00:22:04.299 that certainly has a role to play. It's a very 00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:07.599 useful policy metric. It's something that organizations 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.660 can and that they are doing, measuring in terms 00:22:10.660 --> 00:22:13.420 of scope one, two, three, because it is very 00:22:13.420 --> 00:22:15.680 one -dimensional and therefore it's easier to 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.619 measure. But it's certainly not the whole story 00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:22.059 and it's certainly not the right way to make 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:24.579 an emotional connection with people whom you're 00:22:24.579 --> 00:22:27.549 asking to make. some pretty big behavior changes. 00:22:28.289 --> 00:22:31.509 Exactly. At Salix, we work a lot across the public 00:22:31.509 --> 00:22:33.589 sector and we work across housing across the 00:22:33.589 --> 00:22:35.869 UK. It's very important that measurement and 00:22:35.869 --> 00:22:37.869 verification is obviously important because it 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:39.789 proves that we're making a difference. But so 00:22:39.789 --> 00:22:44.190 much is about the comfort it brings and the modernization 00:22:44.190 --> 00:22:47.609 and being able to kind of future proof our housing, 00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:50.069 our building, the buildings that we use every 00:22:50.069 --> 00:22:52.480 day, whether it's our libraries. leisure centres, 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.759 etc. And so you're right, it's about that messaging 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.160 and emphasis that we put on it. We need to measure, 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:01.279 we need to make sure we get those carbon figures 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.559 that we require, but it's actually about how 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.700 we fill in our pockets as well, isn't it? Obviously 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:09.059 our bills and our comforts, particularly in our 00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:13.660 own homes. Yes, and I think a way that we can 00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:16.420 think about reframing this a little bit is quite 00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:19.599 often all that other stuff has got this jargony 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:22.799 term of co -benefits. And that kind of assumes 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.200 that the primary motivation is reducing carbon 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.839 emissions. And then you've got all these sort 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.460 of incidental benefits on the side. I think it's 00:23:31.460 --> 00:23:35.019 important to kind of lose that co -benefit tag 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.319 because for many people, they're the primary 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.339 benefit or they're the primary motivation for 00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:44.119 getting involved. So, you know, you talk to people 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:46.839 about warmer homes. And that's the motivation. 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:49.279 And what things do I need to do to insulate my 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:52.160 homes, et cetera, to reduce my expensive energy 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.640 bills? That's the entry point for people to get 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.220 more involved. And the co -benefit, the incidental 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:02.380 benefit, is it reduces carbon emissions. So in 00:24:02.380 --> 00:24:04.460 many ways, we need to flip that. If we want to 00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:07.980 get more of the broader people involved, people 00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:10.200 outside of the eco bubble, you have to think 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.339 about what's in it for them in their daily lives. 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.789 And that's how we talk. about the things that 00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:18.910 make sense to them and by the way they have a 00:24:18.910 --> 00:24:21.130 benefit in terms of reducing carbon emissions 00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:23.710 and they also will probably have a benefit hopefully 00:24:23.710 --> 00:24:27.509 in terms of positive impact on nature. Thank 00:24:27.509 --> 00:24:30.650 you. Thank you very much to Rick Cassell today 00:24:30.650 --> 00:24:33.650 for joining us. Rick Cassell from Carbon Copy, 00:24:33.849 --> 00:24:37.130 who's a co -founder and trustee of the UK Climate 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:40.269 Action Charity and for talking to us about the 00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:43.650 report from Footprint, Changeprint, fascinating 00:24:43.650 --> 00:24:46.430 work. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast 00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:49.690 channels and email us with your views. We'd love 00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:54.069 to hear them at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. 00:24:54.529 --> 00:24:57.059 Big thanks to Rick today. Thank you very much 00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:59.980 Hannah. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. You've 00:24:59.980 --> 00:25:02.480 been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.319 a podcast from Salix. For more information about 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.779 our work and to find more content, please visit 00:25:09.779 --> 00:25:14.000 salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.