You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on
Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome
to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah
Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. My guest today is Gavin Johnston
from BE-ST Scotland. Gavin has an extensive experience
at senior level and an architectural background.
He is a certified Passive House designer, has
contributed significantly to the design and refurbishment
of numerous public buildings along with strategic
asset management and housing development. Gavin
is committed to decarbonising the construction
and housing sectors and is passionate about harnessing
the positive impact of the net zero transition
to improve the lives of everyone living in Scotland.
Gavin has led the retrofit of BE-ST, that's B
-E -S -T, Innovation Campus, transforming a 2000
-era industrial unit into a living lab. He remains
deeply involved in passive house standards and
implementing fabric -first approaches to reduce
energy consumption in buildings. Gavin has previous
experience in social housing and is passionate
about improving the sustainability of Scotland's
building stock. In early 2026, he was noted for
his work on the Scottish Healthcare Built Environment
Network. Welcome to Gavin. Thank you for joining
today. Thank you very much for having me, Hannah.
That was some introduction. Let's start at the
beginning. Can you tell us a little bit about
your career? What shapes your vision? What motivates
you? Yes, so I have an architectural background,
which then transitioned into contract and project
management. And I work a lot. in asset management
and capital projects for public sector clients
and then transitioned into social housing before
joining Built Environment, Smarter Transformation,
or BEST as a retrofit impact manager. And I led
on the delivery of Scholar's National Retrofit
Center's retrofit program, which was funded by
Scottish government via SALEX finance for the
public sector heat decarbonization fund. What
motivates me is really unlocking the opportunity
that Net Zero presents for the whole of the built
environment and construction sector to positively
impact in terms of economic growth, development,
providing better buildings, better places that
we can all benefit from. We talk about Net Zero
a lot regarding our buildings and the buildings
either where they live in or we use. What does
net zero actually mean for that built environment
in terms of practical terms? I think what we're
really talking about is measurable outcomes.
So we're talking about lower energy demand, zero
direct emissions heating systems, reducing the
embodied carbon of the materials that we use
within our buildings and ensuring that we've
got verified performance. We're talking about
the ability to look at their existing estate
in our new buildings and make sure that we're
building better, more affordably and faster across
the board and using the challenge of net zero
as an opportunity to do things differently and
to modernise our approaches. Yes, and of course,
you've been spearheading the development and
retrofit of the best innovation campus there
in Scotland. Tell us a little bit about that.
What is that? What is best? What does the campus
look like? And what is a living laboratory? And
how has that impacted your work? How will it
help all of us? Best is the Construction Innovation
Centre for Scotland, and we sit in a central
place between academia, industry and government
to develop either a triple or a quadruple helix
approach towards implementing or testing and
piloting innovative approaches within construction
sector or the broader built environment, and
then working to disseminate that learning and
those advantages so that they become the norm.
We work in a number of thematic areas, so we
work across housing and manufacturing, retrofit
and energy efficiency and skills and training.
And the way in which we do that in terms of having
those key focal areas as we look at what is happening
in terms of the academic world and research and
what are the demands of industry and where can
we bring and utilize the world class learning
and capability within Scotland's academic infrastructure
to bear, to have positive impact within the construction
sector. within the pillars of those thematic
areas. We do that from our campus which is based
just outside of Glasgow. On site we have two
buildings on our Blantyre campus. One is the
Mass Timber Centre of Excellence where we have
taken homegrown Scottish timber products through
a process of validation and creation of high
quality. high value construction materials that
would not otherwise be available to market. It's
a lower embodied carbon alternative to steel
and concrete. They can be used within construction
and we have the facilities in order to manufacture
the mass timber products. We have connections
to test those products in terms of their strength
testing and fire testing to validate them and
give those independent reports to make that product
available and what best the innovation center
does is support that process, support the businesses
who want to utilize that, but then also support
the commercialization of that product. We are
part of Edinburgh Napier University as our host
institution, the best operates across all universities
and colleges within Scotland, but we don't deliver
direct training in terms of we don't. deliver
courses through VEST. What we do is we do skills
training that's focused on industry or filling
the gaps between what knowledge people who are
already existing in industry have or where we
might be able to backfill in terms of upskilling
for educators that are working in the sector.
and we work on collaborative projects to develop
learning and training content within the industry
that can then be adopted and embedded into the
current curriculum in Scotland that has a predominant
focus on low carbon construction and the skills
needed for the net zero transition. And then
crucially the most obvious one is in terms of
their retrofitting energy efficiency thematic
area. What we have undertaken as we have retrofit
our building, as you say, it was built in circa
2000 that we were utilizing to do all of that
skills and training and deliver our mass timber
products from an energy and efficient building.
And what we've done is we've looked at an opportunity
to deliver a fabric first as well as zero direct
emissions heating system installation, as you
call a living lab so that people can come and
learn within a building that has gone through
this process and hopefully by allowing for a
warts and all process where we've shown and invited
everyone to go on that journey with us in the
made. this information available, people can
learn from what we have developed and delivered.
As an exemplar project, it is absolutely, in
a sense, an innovation pilot project, but there
is always learning that can be taken from these
one of a kind unicorn projects that people can
take the learning from and apply within their
estates. So that's what it's meant by 11 lab.
It's essentially a proof of concept that seeks
to merge all of the aspects of the things that
the innovation center deliver. So we've we've
utilized mass timber products and the construction
for one might not have been considered within
using construction generally. Certainly there
may be assumed as to be used within a new build
environment more comfortably, and we've utilized
them within retrofit. And what we're able to
do is have a proof of concept around. we advocate
for more modern methods of construction and utilizing
more offsite construction and we've delivered
on that as well as then been able to evidence
that we have done the demand reduction to make
a more energy efficient building meaning that
when we have transitioned off of gas towards
and heat pump technology that even our demand
is as low as it can possibly be. and given the
evidence, given the evidence for that. So that's,
that's everything that we kind of do from our
campus all wrapped up into, into one building
and one otherable programme. Super, literally
showcasing the very best and that's, that must
have been a highly pressured project, making
sure you get that retrofit right for your own
buildings, to set an example and create all of
that learning for everybody else. Fabric first.
Can you explain what that means in a sentence
Gavin? You just mentioned Fabric First and I'm
aware that not everybody might understand exactly
what that means. Yes, I did step on the Fabric
First landmine unfortunately and the way I was
describing it. Essentially what we mean by Fabric
First is demand reduction and what we're essentially
seeing is that where we could have looked at
decarbonizing the building through looking at
what the heat source within the building so a
gas powered boiler and replacing that with a
zero direct emissions heating system so something
that uses electricity which isn't at the point
of use polluting and what we've done is by using
fabric first or addressing the building's performance
and demand first we've reduced the amount of
energy before we've then started to look at the
mechanical solutions or system solutions. Thank
you very much. Now moving on you're a certified
passive house designer. What does Passive House
consistently get right that mainstream construction
often misses? The biggest advantage of Passive
House is the increased standards around quality
assurance which helps us to address what we call
the performance gap. The performance gap is the
gap between how a building is designed to perform
and how it performs in operation. So basically
how much energy the building uses in use. Versus
what the model would have said when you've assumed
that if you build a building using these materials
using this much translation with these systems
and it should have a performance value of X.
But what we find is is when we measure the building
and alive environment, the performance value
is actually why when you build passive house
standards, not only do you achieve a much lower
energy demand by design within the building,
but you can also. more or less guaranteed that
that is the energy performance that you're going
to see in operation. So it closes that gap. And
the way it does that is by a more rigorous quality
assurance process, both in terms of the design
and the validation of the design. And then in
construction, the validation that what has been
designed is in fact constructed in that way.
And there are very low tolerances in terms of
installation installs. air tightness measures
and then the need to rigorously test both in
construction and post occupancy to guarantee
that you're you're achieving that. So in my experience
when you follow the passive house framework it
does what it says on the tin is essentially the
the sound bite for it. Thank you for explaining
that. Which moves us on to our next question
is I'm sure most of us have to be very careful
about using that because you'll ask for statistics
but probably most of us. especially in the UK
live largely in drafty old flats or houses, you
know, and they are possibly poorly insulated,
unmodernized, should we say, and we're kind of
used to living with drafts. So, and I do want
to talk about housing, but you've got a large
experience in social housing and a background
there. How do we ensure that net zero transition
improves lives? and how we're moving forward
in modernizing and creating better homes and
places for people to live rather than actually
increasing inequality. How do we get that balance
right? It's a very difficult balance to get right
and there are a number of facets so within the
transition generally there is a transition from
traditional industries to new ways of working
and we have to ensure that there's a fair and
just transition there. We have to ensure that
in terms of fairness or in terms of a just transition
that this is something that people are brought
on. It's from the ground up. It's not a top down.
It's not a mandate that people are comfortable
and understand what is being proposed. The crucial
part from a physical building and installation
perspective is to ensure that we're making the
right investments for the right reasons and that
we are guaranteeing the outcomes we expect to
see and that we're addressing where we've seen
shortcomings in the past, where we have previously
tried to deliver large scale programs of investing
and existing buildings, which have actually had
negative unintended consequences and which have
actually led to either higher bills or poorer
health outcomes for people. What we're trying
to do here is ensure that we're addressing the
crisis that is fuel poverty. and addressing the
need for people to be able to afford to live
comfortably in their homes and that can be from
a multifaceted so you can look at upfront we
can say well we want to reduce the cost of energy
to heat a home as well we have to look at well
actually it's very expensive to buy a heat pump
for example compared to a gas boiler. Gas is
priced lower than electricity so a straightforward
swap doesn't always work. as well as some people
being locked out or unaware of what advantages
it might have to them or the incentive process
for them to transition. A building that uses
less energy is ultimately going to be to that
to everyone's benefit that we can create a more
stable environment that has a relatively low
demand so that people will be able to afford
to heat that. And then we look at the systems
that we put in for that heating source. and make
sure that it works for people, that they understand
how it works, they are able to afford it, they
are on the right tariffs, and they're extracting
maximum value for that, and that we are prioritizing
people who are in the greatest need are in field
poverty, are being addressed first, where we
are addressing that they're kind of... leakier
or colder homes are kind of front of the queue,
as it were, in terms of that level of investment
that is required. And that we're also making
sure that we're spending the public purse wisely,
that we're ensuring that the right measures is
being addressed in the right order, so as to
maximize that value. It's very easy to think
that every building has to have a very deep retrofit
to go to almost no energy demand. Actually, that
isn't really going to be possible across the
board because of the amount of cost involved.
So there has to be a balance and I suppose that
balance is ensuring that we're addressing and
redressing issues of inequality whilst we're
delivering these programs. You touched upon skills.
We can't do anything without the right people
with the right skills in the right places. Do
you think that and how do you think is the construction
industry truly ready? in terms of skills and
mindset, so skills for this kind of large -scale
decarbonisation that we clearly need to not just
meet our targets, but to make more comfortable
homes and places for us all to enjoy. I think
there's strong capability in our sector, but
I think it's difficult because we are not yet
at the point where we've got consistent scale
and pace to meet our demands. We are working
as part of built environment smart transformation,
we are working to... to address that skills gap,
that level of understanding, and that's a cross
organization. So that isn't just within those
people working within the sector who are going
to do the doing. It's everyone involved within
the system. So the specifiers, the client, the
end user clients, those involved in the maintenance
of buildings have the understanding of why this
is important and why it is important to do things
in a certain sequence. or in a certain way. We
get good uptake with that and we get good reach,
but we can always do more. One of the biggest
challenges that we have within a skill set or
within the industry broadly is that demand far
outstrips capability purely because of the capacity
that we have. And even if we have everyone up
to 100 % ready. Everyone who's currently working
in the sector, they're all on the same page.
They all have the right level of knowledge. We're
still not able to meet that demand level, which
means we have to look at new ways of doing things.
We have to reach for those innovative solutions.
We have to learn from other industries. We have
to think differently and do things differently.
And that's what we exist to try and support.
We have to look at what are our opportunities
for industrializing. This is a process. And we're
only just scratching the surface of that now,
so there is more work needed. And certainly that
brings me onto mindset. So I think we need to
understand that everyone has to have a base level
of understanding about why this is important
and why we have to look to those innovative solutions
or those different ways of working in order to
meet that demand. We can be sitting around debating
as to whether or not there is the demand that
this is necessary. I think we all have to very
quickly get on board with we agree. that there
is a need for this. We also have to get out of
the talking shops and saying we're pointing at
the problems and start moving into solutions
mode that we have to say we have lots of pilots,
we have lots of data, we have lots of understanding
about what is possible and we need to start deploying
that at scale and the biggest driver for scale
will be that mindset shift and for those capable
of delivering. larger scale programs to kind
of point to that pipeline that then allows the
confidence in the market to upscale, to retrain
and to invest in those solutions so that they're
ready to deliver. And from where you're sitting
right now, are you encouraged by what you see?
You've touched on the word reality as well, and
we do have to be realistic about what we can
achieve. But from where you're sitting at the
moment, Are you encouraged by what you're seeing?
I mean, obviously it's amazing work going on
at best, but also elsewhere there has to be,
there's a lot of different components that have
to come together. Yes, I am encouraged. I'm encouraged
every day we hear about a new product or process
or someone who's tried something differently
at all degrees, scales and levels and the understanding
of the cumulative data that we're getting about
people who are sharing their experiences of saying
we did this small project here and this is the
massive impact it had to us versus we did this
massive project here and this is how we can see
that being applicable and deliverable. And I
think what we all have to agree to is that it
is a slide in scale of investment or scale in
terms of what you're going to deliver. And I
think that we see that there are lots and lots
of tools in our toolbox that we can use to start
to address this. And we can see certainly the
willingness there within a subset of the sector.
I am always hopeful that more and more people
will come on board and the more people who do
start to adopt. the more we will start to see
more solutions coming out, more learning, things
delivered at pace, greater economies of scale
as well will be crucial for us to start to deliver
and then also get us out of the talking shops
as I say and into delivery mode and start to
see some real positive impacts for people. There
are programs that we're involved in that are
really exciting that looks at exactly that where
you. You look to not only make it more financially
valuable for a building project, not purely so
that you can say that you brought the project
in on budget, but so that you can reallocate
that budget to things that really matter to people.
That could be investment in communities. It can
be more money for the NHS. It can be more money
for the services delivered from our buildings
that we're not spending on heating them or. indeed
spending to construct them in the first place.
So if all this comes together, if we get the
finances right, we get the skills, we get the
materials, we get the research, the mindset in
terms of our energy, if all of this comes together,
all of these different components, what do you
think, and Scotland really embraces this, what
do you think everyday life could look like in
terms of energy for people in 10 or 15, 20 years?
it's eminently possible. I think we have gone
through transitions like this in the past and
I think that what we will hopefully see is more
people taken for granted that they live in a
comfortable healthy home and that they enjoy
going into their work environment because it's
comfortable and it's healthy and it's it's conducive
to help and stimulate their minds. I think that
we can really see a big shift in terms of quality
of spaces and the pride that people take in terms
of their workmanship, in terms of their delivery.
I also believe as well, we'll just see continual
improvement and we'll see a total shift in the
way in which we think about construction and
the way in which we do that. I also think that
if we can make a success of this, I would like
to see more people coming into construction and
into the built environment as a viable pathway
for them and make it something that people aspire
to work in, to deliver in it, because it really
is a phenomenal place to work when you get to
see something go from blank piece of paper to
a living, working, breathing building that's
delivering great outcomes for people and I think
that's eminently possible but I think we need
these big anchor projects for people to see what
the art of the possible is and that scale of
opportunity. Super, thank you very much Gavin.
A huge amount of ambition there and a great positive
conversation as we move forward. Lots to achieve
though, lots to be done. Thank you very much
to Gavin Johnston from Best Scotland. There can
be no doubt that climate change is the biggest
challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce
greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming.
Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our
lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate
change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom
to deliver on our climate commitments. Today,
we work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to
subscribe to our podcast channels and email us
with your news and views at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. Thank you very much to Gavin. Thank
you so much for having me. You've been listening
to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from
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