WEBVTT 00:00:06.990 --> 00:00:10.509 You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, 00:00:10.810 --> 00:00:14.689 a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on 00:00:14.689 --> 00:00:17.489 Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome 00:00:17.489 --> 00:00:20.190 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah 00:00:20.190 --> 00:00:22.850 Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:25.269 a message is by being passionate about what you 00:00:25.269 --> 00:00:28.750 are talking about. My guest today is Gavin Johnston 00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:32.869 from BE-ST Scotland. Gavin has an extensive experience 00:00:32.869 --> 00:00:35.789 at senior level and an architectural background. 00:00:36.149 --> 00:00:39.310 He is a certified Passive House designer, has 00:00:39.310 --> 00:00:42.729 contributed significantly to the design and refurbishment 00:00:42.729 --> 00:00:46.149 of numerous public buildings along with strategic 00:00:46.149 --> 00:00:48.969 asset management and housing development. Gavin 00:00:48.969 --> 00:00:51.729 is committed to decarbonising the construction 00:00:51.729 --> 00:00:55.109 and housing sectors and is passionate about harnessing 00:00:55.109 --> 00:00:57.570 the positive impact of the net zero transition 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:01.310 to improve the lives of everyone living in Scotland. 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:05.239 Gavin has led the retrofit of BE-ST, that's B 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:09.819 -E -S -T, Innovation Campus, transforming a 2000 00:01:09.819 --> 00:01:14.379 -era industrial unit into a living lab. He remains 00:01:14.379 --> 00:01:16.599 deeply involved in passive house standards and 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.219 implementing fabric -first approaches to reduce 00:01:19.219 --> 00:01:22.200 energy consumption in buildings. Gavin has previous 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.540 experience in social housing and is passionate 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:27.719 about improving the sustainability of Scotland's 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:31.579 building stock. In early 2026, he was noted for 00:01:31.579 --> 00:01:34.840 his work on the Scottish Healthcare Built Environment 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:37.519 Network. Welcome to Gavin. Thank you for joining 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:39.599 today. Thank you very much for having me, Hannah. 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:43.579 That was some introduction. Let's start at the 00:01:43.579 --> 00:01:45.299 beginning. Can you tell us a little bit about 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:48.500 your career? What shapes your vision? What motivates 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:51.959 you? Yes, so I have an architectural background, 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:55.219 which then transitioned into contract and project 00:01:55.219 --> 00:01:59.959 management. And I work a lot. in asset management 00:01:59.959 --> 00:02:03.620 and capital projects for public sector clients 00:02:03.620 --> 00:02:07.280 and then transitioned into social housing before 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.159 joining Built Environment, Smarter Transformation, 00:02:10.300 --> 00:02:14.639 or BEST as a retrofit impact manager. And I led 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:18.180 on the delivery of Scholar's National Retrofit 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:21.919 Center's retrofit program, which was funded by 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.300 Scottish government via SALEX finance for the 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:28.009 public sector heat decarbonization fund. What 00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:31.409 motivates me is really unlocking the opportunity 00:02:31.409 --> 00:02:33.469 that Net Zero presents for the whole of the built 00:02:33.469 --> 00:02:36.449 environment and construction sector to positively 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:39.330 impact in terms of economic growth, development, 00:02:40.129 --> 00:02:42.370 providing better buildings, better places that 00:02:42.370 --> 00:02:46.030 we can all benefit from. We talk about Net Zero 00:02:46.030 --> 00:02:50.870 a lot regarding our buildings and the buildings 00:02:50.870 --> 00:02:53.860 either where they live in or we use. What does 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:56.199 net zero actually mean for that built environment 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.080 in terms of practical terms? I think what we're 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.520 really talking about is measurable outcomes. 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.199 So we're talking about lower energy demand, zero 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:08.439 direct emissions heating systems, reducing the 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:10.800 embodied carbon of the materials that we use 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:12.939 within our buildings and ensuring that we've 00:03:12.939 --> 00:03:16.759 got verified performance. We're talking about 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.800 the ability to look at their existing estate 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.080 in our new buildings and make sure that we're 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.590 building better, more affordably and faster across 00:03:26.590 --> 00:03:30.689 the board and using the challenge of net zero 00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:34.330 as an opportunity to do things differently and 00:03:34.330 --> 00:03:37.729 to modernise our approaches. Yes, and of course, 00:03:38.030 --> 00:03:42.629 you've been spearheading the development and 00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:45.490 retrofit of the best innovation campus there 00:03:45.490 --> 00:03:48.439 in Scotland. Tell us a little bit about that. 00:03:48.580 --> 00:03:51.419 What is that? What is best? What does the campus 00:03:51.419 --> 00:03:56.039 look like? And what is a living laboratory? And 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:59.520 how has that impacted your work? How will it 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.990 help all of us? Best is the Construction Innovation 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:06.270 Centre for Scotland, and we sit in a central 00:04:06.270 --> 00:04:09.569 place between academia, industry and government 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:12.629 to develop either a triple or a quadruple helix 00:04:12.629 --> 00:04:16.170 approach towards implementing or testing and 00:04:16.170 --> 00:04:19.290 piloting innovative approaches within construction 00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:22.069 sector or the broader built environment, and 00:04:22.069 --> 00:04:25.089 then working to disseminate that learning and 00:04:25.089 --> 00:04:28.050 those advantages so that they become the norm. 00:04:28.250 --> 00:04:30.629 We work in a number of thematic areas, so we 00:04:30.629 --> 00:04:33.430 work across housing and manufacturing, retrofit 00:04:33.430 --> 00:04:36.589 and energy efficiency and skills and training. 00:04:36.970 --> 00:04:38.889 And the way in which we do that in terms of having 00:04:38.889 --> 00:04:42.329 those key focal areas as we look at what is happening 00:04:42.329 --> 00:04:44.569 in terms of the academic world and research and 00:04:44.569 --> 00:04:46.829 what are the demands of industry and where can 00:04:46.829 --> 00:04:49.990 we bring and utilize the world class learning 00:04:49.990 --> 00:04:53.850 and capability within Scotland's academic infrastructure 00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:57.129 to bear, to have positive impact within the construction 00:04:57.129 --> 00:05:00.009 sector. within the pillars of those thematic 00:05:00.009 --> 00:05:03.649 areas. We do that from our campus which is based 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:06.629 just outside of Glasgow. On site we have two 00:05:06.629 --> 00:05:10.189 buildings on our Blantyre campus. One is the 00:05:10.189 --> 00:05:12.569 Mass Timber Centre of Excellence where we have 00:05:12.569 --> 00:05:16.089 taken homegrown Scottish timber products through 00:05:16.089 --> 00:05:19.949 a process of validation and creation of high 00:05:19.949 --> 00:05:23.730 quality. high value construction materials that 00:05:23.730 --> 00:05:26.529 would not otherwise be available to market. It's 00:05:26.529 --> 00:05:29.310 a lower embodied carbon alternative to steel 00:05:29.310 --> 00:05:31.629 and concrete. They can be used within construction 00:05:31.629 --> 00:05:35.970 and we have the facilities in order to manufacture 00:05:35.970 --> 00:05:38.810 the mass timber products. We have connections 00:05:38.810 --> 00:05:41.649 to test those products in terms of their strength 00:05:41.649 --> 00:05:44.470 testing and fire testing to validate them and 00:05:44.470 --> 00:05:47.170 give those independent reports to make that product 00:05:47.170 --> 00:05:49.790 available and what best the innovation center 00:05:49.790 --> 00:05:52.370 does is support that process, support the businesses 00:05:52.370 --> 00:05:54.529 who want to utilize that, but then also support 00:05:54.529 --> 00:05:56.829 the commercialization of that product. We are 00:05:56.829 --> 00:05:59.829 part of Edinburgh Napier University as our host 00:05:59.829 --> 00:06:03.129 institution, the best operates across all universities 00:06:03.129 --> 00:06:06.230 and colleges within Scotland, but we don't deliver 00:06:06.230 --> 00:06:08.649 direct training in terms of we don't. deliver 00:06:08.649 --> 00:06:11.689 courses through VEST. What we do is we do skills 00:06:11.689 --> 00:06:14.610 training that's focused on industry or filling 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:16.850 the gaps between what knowledge people who are 00:06:16.850 --> 00:06:19.769 already existing in industry have or where we 00:06:19.769 --> 00:06:22.350 might be able to backfill in terms of upskilling 00:06:22.350 --> 00:06:25.050 for educators that are working in the sector. 00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:29.310 and we work on collaborative projects to develop 00:06:29.310 --> 00:06:32.129 learning and training content within the industry 00:06:32.129 --> 00:06:35.350 that can then be adopted and embedded into the 00:06:35.350 --> 00:06:38.829 current curriculum in Scotland that has a predominant 00:06:38.829 --> 00:06:41.290 focus on low carbon construction and the skills 00:06:41.290 --> 00:06:43.910 needed for the net zero transition. And then 00:06:43.910 --> 00:06:46.439 crucially the most obvious one is in terms of 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:48.860 their retrofitting energy efficiency thematic 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:52.120 area. What we have undertaken as we have retrofit 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:54.079 our building, as you say, it was built in circa 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:57.519 2000 that we were utilizing to do all of that 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:59.980 skills and training and deliver our mass timber 00:06:59.980 --> 00:07:02.879 products from an energy and efficient building. 00:07:03.019 --> 00:07:05.639 And what we've done is we've looked at an opportunity 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:08.980 to deliver a fabric first as well as zero direct 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:12.199 emissions heating system installation, as you 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.639 call a living lab so that people can come and 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.240 learn within a building that has gone through 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.600 this process and hopefully by allowing for a 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.680 warts and all process where we've shown and invited 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:26.779 everyone to go on that journey with us in the 00:07:26.779 --> 00:07:29.269 made. this information available, people can 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:31.569 learn from what we have developed and delivered. 00:07:31.930 --> 00:07:35.269 As an exemplar project, it is absolutely, in 00:07:35.269 --> 00:07:37.990 a sense, an innovation pilot project, but there 00:07:37.990 --> 00:07:40.269 is always learning that can be taken from these 00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:43.069 one of a kind unicorn projects that people can 00:07:43.069 --> 00:07:44.990 take the learning from and apply within their 00:07:44.990 --> 00:07:47.519 estates. So that's what it's meant by 11 lab. 00:07:47.660 --> 00:07:49.680 It's essentially a proof of concept that seeks 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.060 to merge all of the aspects of the things that 00:07:52.060 --> 00:07:54.759 the innovation center deliver. So we've we've 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.079 utilized mass timber products and the construction 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.180 for one might not have been considered within 00:08:00.180 --> 00:08:02.740 using construction generally. Certainly there 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:06.160 may be assumed as to be used within a new build 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.860 environment more comfortably, and we've utilized 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:10.720 them within retrofit. And what we're able to 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:14.459 do is have a proof of concept around. we advocate 00:08:14.459 --> 00:08:18.339 for more modern methods of construction and utilizing 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:20.740 more offsite construction and we've delivered 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:23.180 on that as well as then been able to evidence 00:08:23.180 --> 00:08:25.620 that we have done the demand reduction to make 00:08:25.620 --> 00:08:27.459 a more energy efficient building meaning that 00:08:27.459 --> 00:08:30.199 when we have transitioned off of gas towards 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.879 and heat pump technology that even our demand 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:36.100 is as low as it can possibly be. and given the 00:08:36.100 --> 00:08:38.679 evidence, given the evidence for that. So that's, 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:41.039 that's everything that we kind of do from our 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.820 campus all wrapped up into, into one building 00:08:43.820 --> 00:08:46.519 and one otherable programme. Super, literally 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:49.519 showcasing the very best and that's, that must 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:52.059 have been a highly pressured project, making 00:08:52.059 --> 00:08:53.980 sure you get that retrofit right for your own 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:57.340 buildings, to set an example and create all of 00:08:57.340 --> 00:09:00.340 that learning for everybody else. Fabric first. 00:09:00.809 --> 00:09:03.809 Can you explain what that means in a sentence 00:09:03.809 --> 00:09:06.230 Gavin? You just mentioned Fabric First and I'm 00:09:06.230 --> 00:09:09.509 aware that not everybody might understand exactly 00:09:09.509 --> 00:09:13.789 what that means. Yes, I did step on the Fabric 00:09:13.789 --> 00:09:16.850 First landmine unfortunately and the way I was 00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:19.029 describing it. Essentially what we mean by Fabric 00:09:19.029 --> 00:09:22.350 First is demand reduction and what we're essentially 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:24.990 seeing is that where we could have looked at 00:09:24.990 --> 00:09:26.830 decarbonizing the building through looking at 00:09:26.830 --> 00:09:29.840 what the heat source within the building so a 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:32.240 gas powered boiler and replacing that with a 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.840 zero direct emissions heating system so something 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:37.279 that uses electricity which isn't at the point 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.139 of use polluting and what we've done is by using 00:09:41.139 --> 00:09:44.139 fabric first or addressing the building's performance 00:09:44.139 --> 00:09:46.639 and demand first we've reduced the amount of 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.679 energy before we've then started to look at the 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.580 mechanical solutions or system solutions. Thank 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:55.279 you very much. Now moving on you're a certified 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.269 passive house designer. What does Passive House 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:01.830 consistently get right that mainstream construction 00:10:01.830 --> 00:10:05.870 often misses? The biggest advantage of Passive 00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:08.509 House is the increased standards around quality 00:10:08.509 --> 00:10:11.750 assurance which helps us to address what we call 00:10:11.750 --> 00:10:15.470 the performance gap. The performance gap is the 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:19.429 gap between how a building is designed to perform 00:10:19.429 --> 00:10:22.210 and how it performs in operation. So basically 00:10:22.210 --> 00:10:26.450 how much energy the building uses in use. Versus 00:10:26.450 --> 00:10:29.049 what the model would have said when you've assumed 00:10:29.049 --> 00:10:31.370 that if you build a building using these materials 00:10:31.370 --> 00:10:34.690 using this much translation with these systems 00:10:34.690 --> 00:10:38.090 and it should have a performance value of X. 00:10:38.090 --> 00:10:40.649 But what we find is is when we measure the building 00:10:40.649 --> 00:10:43.309 and alive environment, the performance value 00:10:43.309 --> 00:10:46.669 is actually why when you build passive house 00:10:46.669 --> 00:10:50.610 standards, not only do you achieve a much lower 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:53.590 energy demand by design within the building, 00:10:53.610 --> 00:10:57.419 but you can also. more or less guaranteed that 00:10:57.419 --> 00:11:00.039 that is the energy performance that you're going 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.600 to see in operation. So it closes that gap. And 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.840 the way it does that is by a more rigorous quality 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.440 assurance process, both in terms of the design 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.700 and the validation of the design. And then in 00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:15.340 construction, the validation that what has been 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:17.899 designed is in fact constructed in that way. 00:11:18.179 --> 00:11:21.919 And there are very low tolerances in terms of 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.490 installation installs. air tightness measures 00:11:24.490 --> 00:11:27.649 and then the need to rigorously test both in 00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:30.370 construction and post occupancy to guarantee 00:11:30.370 --> 00:11:33.429 that you're you're achieving that. So in my experience 00:11:33.429 --> 00:11:36.429 when you follow the passive house framework it 00:11:36.429 --> 00:11:39.570 does what it says on the tin is essentially the 00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:41.210 the sound bite for it. Thank you for explaining 00:11:41.210 --> 00:11:43.549 that. Which moves us on to our next question 00:11:43.549 --> 00:11:45.889 is I'm sure most of us have to be very careful 00:11:45.889 --> 00:11:48.330 about using that because you'll ask for statistics 00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:53.299 but probably most of us. especially in the UK 00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:58.240 live largely in drafty old flats or houses, you 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.179 know, and they are possibly poorly insulated, 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:04.559 unmodernized, should we say, and we're kind of 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:07.500 used to living with drafts. So, and I do want 00:12:07.500 --> 00:12:10.120 to talk about housing, but you've got a large 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:14.120 experience in social housing and a background 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.639 there. How do we ensure that net zero transition 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:22.559 improves lives? and how we're moving forward 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.720 in modernizing and creating better homes and 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.019 places for people to live rather than actually 00:12:30.019 --> 00:12:33.860 increasing inequality. How do we get that balance 00:12:33.860 --> 00:12:37.159 right? It's a very difficult balance to get right 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.639 and there are a number of facets so within the 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.220 transition generally there is a transition from 00:12:43.220 --> 00:12:45.700 traditional industries to new ways of working 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:48.019 and we have to ensure that there's a fair and 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:50.159 just transition there. We have to ensure that 00:12:50.110 --> 00:12:54.190 in terms of fairness or in terms of a just transition 00:12:54.190 --> 00:12:57.230 that this is something that people are brought 00:12:57.230 --> 00:12:59.909 on. It's from the ground up. It's not a top down. 00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:02.070 It's not a mandate that people are comfortable 00:13:02.070 --> 00:13:05.570 and understand what is being proposed. The crucial 00:13:05.570 --> 00:13:09.169 part from a physical building and installation 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:11.710 perspective is to ensure that we're making the 00:13:11.710 --> 00:13:14.250 right investments for the right reasons and that 00:13:14.250 --> 00:13:17.639 we are guaranteeing the outcomes we expect to 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.960 see and that we're addressing where we've seen 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.159 shortcomings in the past, where we have previously 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.399 tried to deliver large scale programs of investing 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:28.820 and existing buildings, which have actually had 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:32.559 negative unintended consequences and which have 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:35.960 actually led to either higher bills or poorer 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.820 health outcomes for people. What we're trying 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:42.759 to do here is ensure that we're addressing the 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:46.129 crisis that is fuel poverty. and addressing the 00:13:46.129 --> 00:13:48.649 need for people to be able to afford to live 00:13:48.649 --> 00:13:51.269 comfortably in their homes and that can be from 00:13:51.269 --> 00:13:54.190 a multifaceted so you can look at upfront we 00:13:54.190 --> 00:13:56.690 can say well we want to reduce the cost of energy 00:13:56.690 --> 00:13:59.769 to heat a home as well we have to look at well 00:13:59.769 --> 00:14:02.850 actually it's very expensive to buy a heat pump 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:05.870 for example compared to a gas boiler. Gas is 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:08.809 priced lower than electricity so a straightforward 00:14:08.809 --> 00:14:11.820 swap doesn't always work. as well as some people 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:14.960 being locked out or unaware of what advantages 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.460 it might have to them or the incentive process 00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:21.120 for them to transition. A building that uses 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.740 less energy is ultimately going to be to that 00:14:23.740 --> 00:14:26.179 to everyone's benefit that we can create a more 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:29.480 stable environment that has a relatively low 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:31.840 demand so that people will be able to afford 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:33.919 to heat that. And then we look at the systems 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.919 that we put in for that heating source. and make 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.240 sure that it works for people, that they understand 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.379 how it works, they are able to afford it, they 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:44.820 are on the right tariffs, and they're extracting 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:48.639 maximum value for that, and that we are prioritizing 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:53.120 people who are in the greatest need are in field 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:55.179 poverty, are being addressed first, where we 00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:58.480 are addressing that they're kind of... leakier 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.620 or colder homes are kind of front of the queue, 00:15:01.779 --> 00:15:04.940 as it were, in terms of that level of investment 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:07.299 that is required. And that we're also making 00:15:07.299 --> 00:15:10.000 sure that we're spending the public purse wisely, 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.240 that we're ensuring that the right measures is 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.480 being addressed in the right order, so as to 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.720 maximize that value. It's very easy to think 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.620 that every building has to have a very deep retrofit 00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:26.080 to go to almost no energy demand. Actually, that 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.870 isn't really going to be possible across the 00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:30.629 board because of the amount of cost involved. 00:15:30.970 --> 00:15:33.610 So there has to be a balance and I suppose that 00:15:33.610 --> 00:15:36.950 balance is ensuring that we're addressing and 00:15:36.950 --> 00:15:40.090 redressing issues of inequality whilst we're 00:15:40.090 --> 00:15:43.769 delivering these programs. You touched upon skills. 00:15:45.129 --> 00:15:47.289 We can't do anything without the right people 00:15:47.289 --> 00:15:50.210 with the right skills in the right places. Do 00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:54.149 you think that and how do you think is the construction 00:15:54.149 --> 00:15:58.440 industry truly ready? in terms of skills and 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:02.360 mindset, so skills for this kind of large -scale 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:06.259 decarbonisation that we clearly need to not just 00:16:06.259 --> 00:16:09.120 meet our targets, but to make more comfortable 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.259 homes and places for us all to enjoy. I think 00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:16.259 there's strong capability in our sector, but 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:18.159 I think it's difficult because we are not yet 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.139 at the point where we've got consistent scale 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:23.620 and pace to meet our demands. We are working 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:25.580 as part of built environment smart transformation, 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:28.570 we are working to... to address that skills gap, 00:16:29.049 --> 00:16:31.590 that level of understanding, and that's a cross 00:16:31.590 --> 00:16:34.490 organization. So that isn't just within those 00:16:34.490 --> 00:16:36.610 people working within the sector who are going 00:16:36.610 --> 00:16:39.549 to do the doing. It's everyone involved within 00:16:39.549 --> 00:16:42.929 the system. So the specifiers, the client, the 00:16:42.929 --> 00:16:45.690 end user clients, those involved in the maintenance 00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:47.730 of buildings have the understanding of why this 00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:50.029 is important and why it is important to do things 00:16:50.029 --> 00:16:53.139 in a certain sequence. or in a certain way. We 00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:55.519 get good uptake with that and we get good reach, 00:16:55.659 --> 00:16:58.879 but we can always do more. One of the biggest 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.179 challenges that we have within a skill set or 00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:05.180 within the industry broadly is that demand far 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:08.799 outstrips capability purely because of the capacity 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.980 that we have. And even if we have everyone up 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.720 to 100 % ready. Everyone who's currently working 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:16.440 in the sector, they're all on the same page. 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:18.660 They all have the right level of knowledge. We're 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:22.700 still not able to meet that demand level, which 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:24.660 means we have to look at new ways of doing things. 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.140 We have to reach for those innovative solutions. 00:17:27.460 --> 00:17:29.819 We have to learn from other industries. We have 00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:32.240 to think differently and do things differently. 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.380 And that's what we exist to try and support. 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:36.519 We have to look at what are our opportunities 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.079 for industrializing. This is a process. And we're 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.420 only just scratching the surface of that now, 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.440 so there is more work needed. And certainly that 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:47.799 brings me onto mindset. So I think we need to 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.740 understand that everyone has to have a base level 00:17:50.740 --> 00:17:53.339 of understanding about why this is important 00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:56.420 and why we have to look to those innovative solutions 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:59.160 or those different ways of working in order to 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.539 meet that demand. We can be sitting around debating 00:18:02.539 --> 00:18:05.099 as to whether or not there is the demand that 00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:07.420 this is necessary. I think we all have to very 00:18:07.420 --> 00:18:09.890 quickly get on board with we agree. that there 00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:12.130 is a need for this. We also have to get out of 00:18:12.130 --> 00:18:14.430 the talking shops and saying we're pointing at 00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:17.109 the problems and start moving into solutions 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:20.690 mode that we have to say we have lots of pilots, 00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:22.730 we have lots of data, we have lots of understanding 00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:25.529 about what is possible and we need to start deploying 00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:29.490 that at scale and the biggest driver for scale 00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:33.630 will be that mindset shift and for those capable 00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:36.569 of delivering. larger scale programs to kind 00:18:36.569 --> 00:18:39.450 of point to that pipeline that then allows the 00:18:39.450 --> 00:18:43.369 confidence in the market to upscale, to retrain 00:18:43.369 --> 00:18:46.529 and to invest in those solutions so that they're 00:18:46.529 --> 00:18:49.509 ready to deliver. And from where you're sitting 00:18:49.509 --> 00:18:53.369 right now, are you encouraged by what you see? 00:18:53.730 --> 00:18:56.470 You've touched on the word reality as well, and 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.109 we do have to be realistic about what we can 00:18:58.109 --> 00:18:59.470 achieve. But from where you're sitting at the 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:02.029 moment, Are you encouraged by what you're seeing? 00:19:02.190 --> 00:19:04.089 I mean, obviously it's amazing work going on 00:19:04.089 --> 00:19:07.809 at best, but also elsewhere there has to be, 00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:10.369 there's a lot of different components that have 00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:13.390 to come together. Yes, I am encouraged. I'm encouraged 00:19:13.390 --> 00:19:16.470 every day we hear about a new product or process 00:19:16.470 --> 00:19:18.950 or someone who's tried something differently 00:19:18.950 --> 00:19:22.329 at all degrees, scales and levels and the understanding 00:19:22.329 --> 00:19:25.730 of the cumulative data that we're getting about 00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:28.210 people who are sharing their experiences of saying 00:19:28.210 --> 00:19:31.029 we did this small project here and this is the 00:19:31.029 --> 00:19:33.970 massive impact it had to us versus we did this 00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:36.109 massive project here and this is how we can see 00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:38.609 that being applicable and deliverable. And I 00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:41.400 think what we all have to agree to is that it 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.640 is a slide in scale of investment or scale in 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.039 terms of what you're going to deliver. And I 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.180 think that we see that there are lots and lots 00:19:49.180 --> 00:19:53.019 of tools in our toolbox that we can use to start 00:19:53.019 --> 00:19:56.539 to address this. And we can see certainly the 00:19:56.539 --> 00:20:00.339 willingness there within a subset of the sector. 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:03.400 I am always hopeful that more and more people 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.980 will come on board and the more people who do 00:20:05.980 --> 00:20:08.549 start to adopt. the more we will start to see 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:11.650 more solutions coming out, more learning, things 00:20:11.650 --> 00:20:14.950 delivered at pace, greater economies of scale 00:20:14.950 --> 00:20:17.630 as well will be crucial for us to start to deliver 00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:20.170 and then also get us out of the talking shops 00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:22.690 as I say and into delivery mode and start to 00:20:22.690 --> 00:20:26.029 see some real positive impacts for people. There 00:20:26.029 --> 00:20:28.150 are programs that we're involved in that are 00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:30.690 really exciting that looks at exactly that where 00:20:30.690 --> 00:20:33.769 you. You look to not only make it more financially 00:20:33.769 --> 00:20:37.029 valuable for a building project, not purely so 00:20:37.029 --> 00:20:38.630 that you can say that you brought the project 00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:41.130 in on budget, but so that you can reallocate 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:43.750 that budget to things that really matter to people. 00:20:44.109 --> 00:20:46.250 That could be investment in communities. It can 00:20:46.250 --> 00:20:49.210 be more money for the NHS. It can be more money 00:20:49.210 --> 00:20:52.250 for the services delivered from our buildings 00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:55.259 that we're not spending on heating them or. indeed 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.400 spending to construct them in the first place. 00:20:57.619 --> 00:20:59.660 So if all this comes together, if we get the 00:20:59.660 --> 00:21:02.359 finances right, we get the skills, we get the 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.660 materials, we get the research, the mindset in 00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:08.819 terms of our energy, if all of this comes together, 00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:11.220 all of these different components, what do you 00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:14.460 think, and Scotland really embraces this, what 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:17.400 do you think everyday life could look like in 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.200 terms of energy for people in 10 or 15, 20 years? 00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:23.910 it's eminently possible. I think we have gone 00:21:23.910 --> 00:21:26.430 through transitions like this in the past and 00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:29.890 I think that what we will hopefully see is more 00:21:29.890 --> 00:21:34.210 people taken for granted that they live in a 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:36.990 comfortable healthy home and that they enjoy 00:21:36.990 --> 00:21:39.349 going into their work environment because it's 00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:42.309 comfortable and it's healthy and it's it's conducive 00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:45.470 to help and stimulate their minds. I think that 00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:49.970 we can really see a big shift in terms of quality 00:21:49.970 --> 00:21:53.269 of spaces and the pride that people take in terms 00:21:53.269 --> 00:21:55.349 of their workmanship, in terms of their delivery. 00:21:55.890 --> 00:21:57.950 I also believe as well, we'll just see continual 00:21:57.950 --> 00:22:00.490 improvement and we'll see a total shift in the 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:02.369 way in which we think about construction and 00:22:02.369 --> 00:22:04.529 the way in which we do that. I also think that 00:22:04.529 --> 00:22:06.390 if we can make a success of this, I would like 00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:08.710 to see more people coming into construction and 00:22:08.710 --> 00:22:10.769 into the built environment as a viable pathway 00:22:10.769 --> 00:22:13.789 for them and make it something that people aspire 00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:16.150 to work in, to deliver in it, because it really 00:22:16.150 --> 00:22:18.549 is a phenomenal place to work when you get to 00:22:18.549 --> 00:22:22.200 see something go from blank piece of paper to 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:24.099 a living, working, breathing building that's 00:22:24.099 --> 00:22:26.619 delivering great outcomes for people and I think 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:28.839 that's eminently possible but I think we need 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:31.539 these big anchor projects for people to see what 00:22:31.539 --> 00:22:34.720 the art of the possible is and that scale of 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:37.759 opportunity. Super, thank you very much Gavin. 00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:41.740 A huge amount of ambition there and a great positive 00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:44.900 conversation as we move forward. Lots to achieve 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:47.250 though, lots to be done. Thank you very much 00:22:47.250 --> 00:22:49.769 to Gavin Johnston from Best Scotland. There can 00:22:49.769 --> 00:22:51.930 be no doubt that climate change is the biggest 00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:54.250 challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce 00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:56.490 greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. 00:22:56.849 --> 00:22:59.190 Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our 00:22:59.190 --> 00:23:01.369 lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate 00:23:01.369 --> 00:23:03.769 change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom 00:23:03.769 --> 00:23:06.509 to deliver on our climate commitments. Today, 00:23:06.529 --> 00:23:08.910 we work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to 00:23:08.910 --> 00:23:11.529 subscribe to our podcast channels and email us 00:23:11.529 --> 00:23:14.470 with your news and views at podcast at salixfinance 00:23:14.470 --> 00:23:17.730 .co .uk. Thank you very much to Gavin. Thank 00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:20.329 you so much for having me. You've been listening 00:23:20.329 --> 00:23:23.789 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from 00:23:23.789 --> 00:23:27.190 Salix. For more information about our work and 00:23:27.190 --> 00:23:30.809 to find more content, please visit salixfinance 00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:33.869 .co .uk forward slash podcasts.