WEBVTT 00:00:06.990 --> 00:00:10.550 You're listening to the Decarbonization Dialogue, 00:00:10.810 --> 00:00:15.210 a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonization 00:00:15.210 --> 00:00:17.750 Dialogue. I'm Hannah Walker, and I believe that 00:00:17.750 --> 00:00:19.949 the best way to communicate a message is by being 00:00:19.949 --> 00:00:22.289 passionate about what you are talking about. 00:00:22.910 --> 00:00:27.050 With me today, I have Mohammed Khan and Professor 00:00:27.050 --> 00:00:30.530 David Fai. They are both chief executive officer 00:00:30.530 --> 00:00:34.920 and founder. of a material which develops advanced 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:37.880 material engineering solutions primarily centered 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.000 on metal organic frameworks. for applications 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:43.960 such as carbon capture, hydrogen storage, and 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.719 gas separation. As CEO, Mohammad has transformed 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.560 a range of businesses from energy, chemicals, 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.259 water, and other industrial markets. For more 00:00:53.259 --> 00:00:57.039 than 27 years, he has worked on technology, commercialization, 00:00:57.380 --> 00:00:59.820 creating enterprise value, and building partnerships. 00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:03.240 He has operated in most industrial geographies 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.299 across the world. David leads the development. 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:08.879 of the fundamental technology and he is also 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.439 Royal Society University research fellow and 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:13.959 reader in molecular engineering in the department 00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:16.459 of chemical engineering at the University of 00:01:16.459 --> 00:01:19.640 Cambridge where he leads the absorption and advanced 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.719 material laboratory. Now that's quite a lot today 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:26.379 and I've got two fantastic guests and I'm really 00:01:26.379 --> 00:01:29.719 looking forward to learning more about immaterial, 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.120 which is all I believe about carbon capture and 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.879 hydrogen storage. And I will emphasize at this 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:38.200 point that I am not an engineer, and I'm not 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:40.980 a scientist, and many of our listeners are not 00:01:40.980 --> 00:01:43.280 either. So I'm hoping that we're able to put 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:46.219 a lot of this into a very simple language for 00:01:46.219 --> 00:01:50.120 all of us. But let's start by asking you actually, 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.299 both Mohabbat and David, about your backgrounds. 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:56.799 Is this where you imagined you would be. Let's 00:01:56.799 --> 00:01:59.780 start with Mohamed, because you are the CEO and 00:01:59.780 --> 00:02:03.099 founder. Thank you, Hannah. Thank you for having 00:02:03.099 --> 00:02:07.519 us on the podcast. Pleasure to be here. Inspiration, 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.879 I think, is from a number of directions. I'm 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.800 an engineer by background, so I wanted to build 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.520 things. And that's essentially how my career 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:19.139 has evolved. It's been building, taking on enormous 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:21.960 challenges. and creating something that's of 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:25.300 significance and value to society and industry 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:27.479 and customers at large. So that's really where 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.199 I draw my inspiration. I guess the other aspect 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:33.879 is working alongside very talented individuals 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:36.759 and creating the sum of the parts which is greater 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.560 than the individual parts and really seeing people 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.960 shine is also something I draw deep satisfaction 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:46.159 from. And David, how about you? I'm a scientist. 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.300 I'm a chemist. I started working in the Department 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:53.159 of Chemical Engineering in Cambridge. The motivation 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.020 has been always about how we can really create 00:02:57.020 --> 00:03:00.460 new ideas. As a scientist, I'm curious about 00:03:00.460 --> 00:03:04.419 finding new materials, new approaches, new solutions 00:03:04.419 --> 00:03:07.280 to existing problems, and having the opportunity 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.439 to really jump from an academic publication. 00:03:10.810 --> 00:03:13.590 where a few people will read it and will understand 00:03:13.590 --> 00:03:16.569 what we are doing. Into a real company where 00:03:16.569 --> 00:03:20.330 we have a real translational work, where we can 00:03:20.330 --> 00:03:23.509 really have an impact, we can improve the quality 00:03:23.509 --> 00:03:27.270 of life of the humanity of all the people. That's 00:03:27.270 --> 00:03:31.229 quite important, okay? And that was the decision, 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:35.669 first of all, to really jump into material as 00:03:35.669 --> 00:03:38.689 a company. And as Mohamed said, All this is thanks 00:03:38.689 --> 00:03:42.330 to very bright people working around this technology, 00:03:43.030 --> 00:03:46.770 more than just one idea from the lab. So let's 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:49.389 talk about immaterial from this company that 00:03:49.389 --> 00:03:54.909 you've founded. What big climate problem, and 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:58.069 we're talking all about climate today, is immaterial 00:03:58.069 --> 00:04:01.069 trying to solve? And how do your different roles, 00:04:01.349 --> 00:04:03.650 science and business, work together to tackle 00:04:03.650 --> 00:04:05.789 it? I'm going to take that to Mohamed, please. 00:04:06.009 --> 00:04:09.330 Our primary focus obviously is in decarbonizing 00:04:09.330 --> 00:04:12.569 industry and that's essentially helping industry 00:04:12.569 --> 00:04:15.710 capture carbon economically and cost -effectively. 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:18.110 So we're really tackling two challenges. One 00:04:18.110 --> 00:04:20.689 is the environmental challenge where the temperature 00:04:20.689 --> 00:04:23.990 of the Earth, the planet is actually rising and 00:04:23.990 --> 00:04:27.389 therefore developing these solutions will enable 00:04:27.389 --> 00:04:29.509 a slowdown or a stoppage of that temperature, 00:04:29.750 --> 00:04:33.089 but it's bringing economically viable solutions 00:04:33.089 --> 00:04:36.310 to the marketplace. that will enable that to 00:04:36.310 --> 00:04:39.930 be delivered. And secondly, with that environmental 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:42.649 challenge around the climate is solving the financial 00:04:42.649 --> 00:04:46.470 puzzle. It is an enormous financial puzzle because 00:04:46.470 --> 00:04:50.550 in order to address the climate problems and 00:04:50.550 --> 00:04:54.029 deliver solutions, we need economically viable 00:04:54.029 --> 00:04:56.910 solutions that are actually affordable, that 00:04:56.910 --> 00:04:59.550 can be easily scaled and can be easily rolled 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:03.069 out. And that's really where the business at 00:05:03.069 --> 00:05:06.100 Immaterial is focused. So it's very much looking 00:05:06.100 --> 00:05:09.819 at how we can actually bring to bear our technology, 00:05:10.180 --> 00:05:13.060 how that can be developed, expanded, tailored 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:16.600 to deliver a solution that not only just creates 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:19.620 a climatic solution but actually enables a mass 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:21.500 rollout and that's really where we're focused. 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.459 And of course recently I believe that you raised, 00:05:24.579 --> 00:05:26.540 and do correct me if I'm wrong, you raised about 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:29.660 I think it's 18 .2 million to scale up funding. 00:05:30.529 --> 00:05:35.069 US dollars to move this forward and that is for 00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:37.949 specifically work across the US is it and Europe 00:05:37.949 --> 00:05:41.009 on this? The European market including the UK 00:05:41.009 --> 00:05:43.790 and obviously the US market is where we are primarily 00:05:43.790 --> 00:05:46.449 focused and this is about rolling out our pilots 00:05:46.449 --> 00:05:49.250 so we can do the technology demonstrations at 00:05:49.250 --> 00:05:53.250 scale and provide confidence around the solution 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:56.009 to industry so we can then scale and then roll 00:05:56.009 --> 00:05:59.800 this technology out. Okay, because cost is something 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.420 we talk about very often in our decarbonisation 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:05.639 dialogue, of course, because there is a race, 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.720 as you mentioned, to get to our challenging net 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.319 zero targets and goals and to meet the various 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:13.480 goals that we've been set. But of course, there 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.839 is a cost to that. So the science, and I'm going 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.279 to get to David on this, which areas like carbon 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.660 capture from the air? And if you can explain 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:25.899 this really simply for me, storing clean energy 00:06:25.899 --> 00:06:28.420 or helping industries reduce emissions, do you 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:30.259 see as the most important for your technology? 00:06:30.379 --> 00:06:32.839 How does that all come together? Can you explain 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.959 what it is, first of all, and how it works together? 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.000 So we are really talking about problems related 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:42.560 with gas. It could be gas storage or gas separation. 00:06:43.299 --> 00:06:48.459 When we started burning fossil fuels in the 18th 00:06:48.459 --> 00:06:51.439 century with the Industrial Revolution, obviously 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:54.959 we had a huge impact into the environment. It 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:59.500 wasn't clear for a century or so, but obviously 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:04.240 people started realizing that the greenhouse 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.288 effect is a reality, climate change, and we see... 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:12.279 every year how the situation is more and more 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.959 important and dramatic here. So the opportunity 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.100 is really being able to really say, well, obviously 00:07:18.100 --> 00:07:20.819 we want to move into renewable energy, but this 00:07:20.819 --> 00:07:24.399 will need some time, some transition. So while 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.839 we are still using fossil fuels, can we have 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.759 a solution where we can really capture this CO2 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.360 that is produced in the chimneys? So we avoid 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.660 all these emissions into the environment. And 00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:39.470 at the same time, While we are moving into this 00:07:39.470 --> 00:07:41.709 electrification of the whole industry, we will 00:07:41.709 --> 00:07:44.110 have also an opportunity in the future of continuing 00:07:44.110 --> 00:07:48.709 using CO2, but now with a value added. This is 00:07:48.709 --> 00:07:51.670 about carbon capture. Energy storage is also 00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:54.009 quite important because there is the opportunity 00:07:54.009 --> 00:07:57.110 of also densifying these gases and being able 00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:00.370 to really put more higher amounts of gas in a 00:08:00.370 --> 00:08:03.149 smaller volume, which is always going to be important 00:08:03.149 --> 00:08:07.089 for any industrial application. Both solutions? 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:10.060 even carbon capture or the densification of these 00:08:10.060 --> 00:08:13.699 gases, at the end of the day, we are using porous 00:08:13.699 --> 00:08:16.579 materials, okay, materials with a high pore volume, 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.120 high porosity, to be able to interact with these 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.839 gases, being able to capture the CO2 selectively, 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:26.779 or being able to absorb and store hydrogen, the 00:08:26.779 --> 00:08:29.040 same with water, a lot of different applications. 00:08:29.579 --> 00:08:31.100 And the solution we are working on, and this 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:33.240 is the common point around all these different 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.240 technologies, is around a relatively new family 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.080 of materials called metal -organic frameworks. 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:44.360 These are porous coordination polymers that received 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:46.879 the Nobel Prize in chemistry this year. And we 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.919 were extremely happy to see this recognition. 00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:53.340 And it really makes very interesting technology, 00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:56.179 very interesting materials that we can. are used 00:08:56.179 --> 00:08:59.960 to, as I said, very selectively interact with 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:04.080 molecules, gases, so we can really filter them, 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:07.899 capture them, or store them. That's interesting 00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:10.100 that you mentioned the Nobel Prize in Chemistry 00:09:10.100 --> 00:09:12.679 because that was quite a big deal, wasn't it, 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:14.799 to have, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.559 have the fact that metal -organic frameworks 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:22.009 were recognized within that. How do you think 00:09:22.009 --> 00:09:24.330 that's been received? What difference do you 00:09:24.330 --> 00:09:27.389 think that's making to your work and to communication 00:09:27.389 --> 00:09:30.950 of it? So obviously, these technologies are very 00:09:30.950 --> 00:09:34.629 well known in academic environments, little by 00:09:34.629 --> 00:09:38.269 little in industry, but it's more difficult to 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:41.029 really communicate these to your family, for 00:09:41.029 --> 00:09:44.070 example, to your friends and the public in general, 00:09:44.110 --> 00:09:46.950 being able to really understand the work we are 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:49.980 doing. is going to be quite important now. Thanks 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:52.899 to the Nobel Prize, people will be able to recognize 00:09:52.899 --> 00:09:55.539 something a little bit similar to graphene. Many 00:09:55.539 --> 00:09:57.519 people knew about graphene because it got the 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:00.759 Nobel Prize, people were always looking for applications 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:04.960 and trying to see how we can really use this 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.759 new material, new technology. We have the opportunity 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.399 now with these metal -organic frameworks because 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:14.320 finally they were more or less discovered between 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:19.009 30 -25 years ago. they were finally recognized. 00:10:19.289 --> 00:10:24.049 That was super important. Just going back to 00:10:24.049 --> 00:10:28.370 Mohamed, we talk a lot about technology and innovation 00:10:28.370 --> 00:10:30.690 when we talk about climate change solutions. 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:34.429 We talk a lot about what we're doing to kind 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:39.190 of mitigate the impacts that we see in our news 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:40.909 practically every day, by the way. We're seeing 00:10:40.909 --> 00:10:45.190 climate change in our news every day. We talk 00:10:45.190 --> 00:10:48.049 about solar, we talk about heat pumps, we talk 00:10:48.049 --> 00:10:51.889 about heat networks, we talk about geothermal, 00:10:51.889 --> 00:10:55.870 for example. Do you think that people are talking 00:10:55.870 --> 00:10:59.830 enough about carbon capture, hydrogen storage, 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:02.429 all of that? And what part does that play in 00:11:02.429 --> 00:11:07.269 the conversation? I think it plays quite a central 00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:12.440 part in the sense that If we looked at some statistics 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.200 and looked at what are the largest sources of 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.500 emissions, they're generally from industry. And 00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:26.399 that's where the topic is very central and extremely 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.299 relevant. I guess some of the other examples 00:11:28.299 --> 00:11:32.820 that you cited affect consumers as well, and 00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:36.690 therefore they are more familiar. with the terminology 00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:40.190 around solar panels and heat pumps and things 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:43.269 like that. But what's really driving all of this 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:47.009 is essentially three things. One, the temperatures 00:11:47.009 --> 00:11:48.970 are rising and the weather is changing and people 00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:50.950 can see that and that's quite visible and that's 00:11:50.950 --> 00:11:53.250 obviously associated with the climate challenges 00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:56.629 and issues. Secondly, energy costs are rising 00:11:56.629 --> 00:12:00.429 wherever there is supply disruption, cost of 00:12:00.429 --> 00:12:03.340 living and inflation is affected. If we look 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:06.039 at the last year and a half, two years in the 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.039 UK in particular, costs of electricity and gas 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.200 have been rising because of those supply disruptions 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.480 as well. And then obviously thirdly is in order 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.360 to reduce, have a new solution that is more environmentally 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.600 friendly, addresses some of the scarcity hiccups 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.919 and is affordable is where some of these technologies 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.320 come in. And I think it's going to be a combination 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.720 of a number of technologies. across a range of 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.960 industries and sort of value chains that will 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:38.120 have the overall impact. But carbon capture or 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.679 CO2 emissions is a big theme. It's a big issue 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:45.539 and clearly needs to be addressed in the right 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:47.899 sort of economic manner because that will actually 00:12:47.899 --> 00:12:50.519 help industry to roll it out. It needs to have 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.220 a business case. It needs to have a payback and 00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:58.210 also to alleviate some of the burden of government 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.009 subsidies, for example, because obviously there 00:13:00.009 --> 00:13:02.710 are market cycles. Things go up and they come 00:13:02.710 --> 00:13:06.070 down. Funding isn't always available. So it's 00:13:06.070 --> 00:13:08.889 coming up with solutions that can stand alone, 00:13:09.350 --> 00:13:12.330 don't actually require significant subsidy and 00:13:12.330 --> 00:13:14.190 can be scaled and rolled out because they are 00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:16.730 very affordable. People are very familiar with 00:13:16.730 --> 00:13:19.129 the engineering solutions and they can be adapted 00:13:19.129 --> 00:13:20.769 very quickly. And I think it's a combination 00:13:20.769 --> 00:13:23.360 of all of those things. that we really need in 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.980 order to move the agenda forward and that's really 00:13:26.980 --> 00:13:29.259 where we're focused on the material. Because 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:31.779 we've talked about the cost and you've raised 00:13:31.779 --> 00:13:34.159 money and that's a challenge and then of course 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.279 and you've just mentioned scaling up of materials 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:38.539 which is another big challenge. Do you think 00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:40.840 that's the hardest part of turning the metal 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.340 organic frameworks or MOFs? I try and avoid acronyms 00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:46.120 in this so I'm going to say the whole thing out 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:49.980 in full. What is the hardest part of turning 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:52.059 metal organic frameworks into mass -produced 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:54.360 cost -effective products? What's the challenge 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.659 that you're facing? I think if we just dial back 00:13:56.659 --> 00:13:58.460 out and just look at what it is that we're trying 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:00.919 to do, it's actually delivering a solution that 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:03.480 makes financial and economic sense for the customer. 00:14:03.940 --> 00:14:05.820 The materials are one component of it, but it's 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.220 actually delivering them inside a system. The 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.139 greatest challenge is the demonstration. It's 00:14:12.139 --> 00:14:16.000 time. This is deep tech. We are engaged with 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.759 a range of industries where our customers are 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:21.159 primarily blue chip, so they are listed companies, 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.519 so they want to see proof points at various capacities. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.580 So it's the timeline and the duration around 00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:29.580 that. I think for a material, you know, where 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:32.440 we are focused and where we are very different 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.960 is that we have a combination. So our innovation 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.259 is obviously the materials and our ability to 00:14:39.259 --> 00:14:41.299 capture significantly more volume compared to 00:14:41.299 --> 00:14:43.039 other MOFs. There's a very clear distinction 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:46.519 there. And then there is familiarity so it's 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:50.899 using unit operations designs systems that are 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:53.580 familiar to industry and so what we are doing 00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:56.320 is we've got a combination of where innovation 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.779 is unique around the science so it's the densification 00:14:58.779 --> 00:15:02.740 of our materials and how we actually do the integration 00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:06.679 inside existing proven at scale systems so for 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.860 us it's a very different pathway so it's combining 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:13.070 innovation with familiarity but the real focus 00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:15.809 is, how do we do that in a very fast way so that 00:15:15.809 --> 00:15:18.110 we can actually have an alternative to the incumbent 00:15:18.110 --> 00:15:20.649 technology, which is a chemical process, which 00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:23.029 is extremely expensive. And communicate it to 00:15:23.029 --> 00:15:25.230 those potential customers that you have. Now, 00:15:25.230 --> 00:15:29.230 David, can I come to you for the looking at the, 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:31.129 we're talking about carbon capture, hydrogen 00:15:31.129 --> 00:15:33.350 storage, but we're also talking about climate 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:36.370 change and greenhouse gases, and we want to obviously 00:15:36.370 --> 00:15:38.549 reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere. 00:15:38.809 --> 00:15:41.490 How do you ensure that through these processes, 00:15:41.789 --> 00:15:43.750 that you're actually going to reduce the carbon. 00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:45.789 We're not actually going to create more through 00:15:45.789 --> 00:15:48.070 that whole manufacturing process that you're 00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:50.450 creating. You've launched a new company. You 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:52.070 know, there's a lot of people. There are more 00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:54.850 new products. How do we kind of make sure that 00:15:54.850 --> 00:15:57.789 it is fair and well balanced in achieving what 00:15:57.789 --> 00:16:00.350 you want it to? The design that is done in the 00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:03.190 lab, obviously, is always difficult to scale 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:05.950 up. It's difficult to really translate to industry. 00:16:06.450 --> 00:16:08.649 And this is why it's key to have this transition 00:16:08.649 --> 00:16:12.039 exercise where we make sure that we can manufacture 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.240 these materials cheaply, in terms of energy consumption. 00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:19.100 We don't want to use very intense products, processes, 00:16:19.659 --> 00:16:22.100 high temperatures. We don't want to use toxic 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:24.720 solvents, for example. We want to have some what 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.039 we call green synthesis, which essentially means 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:30.419 that we don't want to use high temperatures, 00:16:30.620 --> 00:16:32.379 high pressures. We don't want to use anything 00:16:32.379 --> 00:16:36.559 that is not almost water as a solvent, if we 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:42.590 can. making sure that the manufacturing is relatively 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:46.970 simple and it's never going to be exotic process 00:16:46.970 --> 00:16:49.809 that will be super expensive. Very expensive 00:16:49.809 --> 00:16:52.370 at the end of the day translates into use a huge 00:16:52.370 --> 00:16:54.690 amount of energy many times. And that's what 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:57.809 we are really avoiding. So we have seen this. 00:16:58.049 --> 00:17:00.230 We have seen that we can manufacture these materials 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:05.779 without many difficulties. Now, we have a material 00:17:05.779 --> 00:17:07.740 that will be able to really capture the CO2. 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.579 Once we are able to really prove that the technology 00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:13.839 can be scaled up with the prototypes and the 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.339 systems are working the way we say, then obviously 00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:18.759 that will make the big difference. And of course, 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.960 you're scaling up and you're doing all of that 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.380 work, but let's talk for a moment, Mohamed, about 00:17:24.380 --> 00:17:26.700 government policies. What is it that we need 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:31.140 to happen for a company like yours to make a 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.450 difference? It's a couple of things. If we look 00:17:34.450 --> 00:17:38.289 at the UK, for example, as a starter, where Europe 00:17:38.289 --> 00:17:40.369 being the European trading scheme, we've got 00:17:40.369 --> 00:17:42.910 good pricing, market pricing kind of mechanisms 00:17:42.910 --> 00:17:46.109 being established. Where we need government policy 00:17:46.109 --> 00:17:49.970 to kind of focus is acceleration of new technology 00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:53.190 that is economically viable, because that will 00:17:53.190 --> 00:17:56.289 actually have a significant impact, not only 00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.450 in addressing the climate goals in the UK, but 00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:01.970 actually on the on the economy as a whole, because 00:18:02.140 --> 00:18:05.740 we would be avoiding significant amounts of capital. 00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:08.119 So if we look at the UK market, and let's say 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:11.420 we decarbonized half of the UK market, we could 00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:14.200 probably add, in terms of capital avoidance, 00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:16.920 we would save at least one third of the UK GDP. 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.299 That's significant. And I think that's really 00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:23.759 where we need some bold moves to enable acceleration, 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.920 not development, but acceleration of technology 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.339 that's got promise that would actually help address 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:31.960 the financial puzzle. because that will actually 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.759 unlock economic growth and reduce significantly 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.359 the burden on the UK economy as well, especially 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.119 from a taxpayer, from a government perspective. 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:42.980 Let's fast forward five years. What does success 00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:46.819 look like for you there and your work, but the 00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:49.579 planet as well, Mohamed? I think success for 00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:53.180 the company is about having an engineering solution 00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:56.779 that's ready for commercial rollout in very simple 00:18:56.779 --> 00:19:02.240 terms. And success for the planet is I think 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.559 for us, you know, speaking on behalf of everyone 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:07.740 in material, I think it's deep gratification 00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:12.019 that we will have had an impact in bringing a 00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:15.380 new technology that is very affordable, that 00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:18.619 can actually secure a green future for future 00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:21.039 generations. Because you have obviously set up 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.559 this company, I think you're based at Cambridge 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.539 Science Park, and presumably you employ people 00:19:25.539 --> 00:19:28.119 just as passionate as yourselves. looking at 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.880 the generations ahead as well, looking to the 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.720 future. Absolutely. David, in terms of the technologies, 00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:37.059 what possibilities or new possibilities do you 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:39.299 see for the technology that could make a big 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.440 difference in the fight against climate change? 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:43.740 I mean, obviously, the first one is all these 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:47.519 around carbon capture. That's the closer market, 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:51.299 the easiest way of deploying this technology 00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:53.559 to really make this difference, this impact that 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.170 Mohamed was referring. But then, I mean, sky 00:19:57.170 --> 00:20:01.150 is the future. Sky is the limit. We can work 00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:05.690 on water harvesting. We can work on reducing 00:20:05.690 --> 00:20:09.910 the impact of air conditioning, air heating systems 00:20:09.910 --> 00:20:12.269 by making systems which are much more effective, 00:20:12.710 --> 00:20:17.349 consume lower amount of energy. There is different 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:19.670 gas separations, for example, that could be extremely 00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.069 expensive. And again, using these porous materials 00:20:22.069 --> 00:20:25.019 to selectively separate, discriminate between 00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:28.039 molecules will also have a huge impact. So a 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.960 lot of different possibilities, a lot of different 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.400 technologies, areas where these materials can 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.140 be applied to. Sky is the limit indeed. My final 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:40.980 question to both of you, I think I kind of know 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:42.819 the answer particularly after that sky is the 00:20:42.819 --> 00:20:47.599 limit comment. Question to Mohamed, are you positive 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.220 or negative about our climate future? extremely 00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:53.660 positive, which is why we're obviously purposefully 00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:55.940 putting the effort in. We believe we can make 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:58.539 a fundamental difference. So we're actually working 00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:01.400 backwards. We've looked at the industries, the 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:04.900 market, the challenge and ultimately every technology 00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:08.039 solution needs to make financial sense. So that 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.900 really has been our starting point and we're 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.140 working backwards and we've got a great combination 00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:15.980 of talent that's young, that's very energetic 00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:19.990 and very creative along with people that have 00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:22.450 been there, done that a number of times or so 00:21:22.450 --> 00:21:25.029 many times. So we've got a very unique combination 00:21:25.029 --> 00:21:28.049 and we've got a very pragmatic approach and we 00:21:28.049 --> 00:21:30.390 believe we will make a significant difference. 00:21:30.769 --> 00:21:33.230 We're really excited about that. It is super 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.349 to have that combination, isn't it? So the set 00:21:35.349 --> 00:21:38.609 of people from all backgrounds and all experiences. 00:21:39.190 --> 00:21:42.170 Same question to you, David. I suppose it's negative 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:44.690 or positive or optimist or pessimist. I think 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:47.509 I know what's coming. Yeah, absolutely. I'm always 00:21:47.509 --> 00:21:50.549 a very optimistic person. I think climate change 00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:54.529 has a solution, but obviously it requires the 00:21:54.529 --> 00:21:57.930 effort of everyone as a society. We have the 00:21:57.930 --> 00:22:00.190 responsibility of really making these changes 00:22:00.190 --> 00:22:04.190 and making sure that we really pay attention 00:22:04.190 --> 00:22:06.650 to these problems. If we do this, then absolutely 00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:09.190 very, very optimistic. And this is where immaterial 00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:11.950 can really offer the solution. And the carbon 00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:16.130 capital at low cost, low price is going to be... 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.819 Thank you very much for that very inspirational 00:22:19.819 --> 00:22:22.279 podcast interview and that's a big thank you 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.420 to Mohamed. and to David from Immaterial and 00:22:25.420 --> 00:22:27.819 for providing such insight today. There can be 00:22:27.819 --> 00:22:30.339 no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge 00:22:30.339 --> 00:22:32.799 of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.140 gas emissions to slow global warming. Today, 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.539 we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles 00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:39.619 to current and future impacts of climate change. 00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:42.460 Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver 00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:45.299 on our climate commitments. Today, we must work 00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.640 for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.420 to our podcast channels and please do email us 00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:53.740 at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. UK with your 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:57.480 ideas and even suggestions for our guests. Thank 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.819 you once again to Mohamed and David. Thank you, 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.319 Hannah. Thank you, Hannah. You've been listening 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.740 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from 00:23:06.740 --> 00:23:10.140 Salix. For more information about our work and 00:23:10.140 --> 00:23:13.759 to find more content, please visit salixfinance 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.859 .co .uk forward slash podcasts.