WEBVTT 00:00:07.069 --> 00:00:10.529 You're listening to the Decarbonization Dialogue, 00:00:10.830 --> 00:00:14.990 a podcast from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonization 00:00:14.990 --> 00:00:17.589 Dialogue. I'm Hannah Walker and I believe that 00:00:17.589 --> 00:00:19.890 the best way to communicate a message is by being 00:00:19.890 --> 00:00:22.050 passionate about what you are talking about. 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:26.179 My guest today is Pancho Lewis. Hancho has completed 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:29.160 his postdoctoral fellow at Durham University 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.780 and is a PhD researcher at Lancaster University. 00:00:33.219 --> 00:00:35.039 He is currently Assistant Professor, Department 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:37.619 of Geography, and his most recent publications 00:00:37.619 --> 00:00:40.939 include Fluid Hope in a Climate Emergency and 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:44.200 Reattaching to Coal in a Climate Emergency. He 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:46.679 has also written papers on citizens' assemblies. 00:00:47.020 --> 00:00:49.759 Pancho's research looks at the politics of net 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:52.520 zero transitions, focusing on people's effective 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:55.420 experiences in the midst of a climate emergency. 00:00:56.020 --> 00:00:58.259 He is also a public engagement specialist and 00:00:58.259 --> 00:01:01.439 with a focus on environmental politics. He has 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:04.000 been involved in climate change campaigning, 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.719 including at an elected local authority representative 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.519 with responsibilities for climate action. For 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:11.620 a number of years, he has also worked for the 00:01:11.620 --> 00:01:14.819 food waste platform Too Good To Go, including 00:01:14.819 --> 00:01:18.659 as a UK head of partnerships. Outside of academia, 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.680 he remains an environmental advisor and is politically 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:26.180 active. Thank you for joining us, Pancho. Thanks 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:28.599 so much for having me, Hannah. Now Pancho, can 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:30.659 you tell us a little bit about your background 00:01:30.659 --> 00:01:34.340 and how your interest in people and planet start, 00:01:34.420 --> 00:01:37.200 where that all starts and what led you to academia, 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:41.219 politics and research? Yeah, so I think actually 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:44.340 maybe sort of the way to start is by explaining 00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:47.930 that the sort of planet that came later, my interest 00:01:47.930 --> 00:01:50.329 in planet and environmental issues. It was really 00:01:50.329 --> 00:01:52.829 the people that kind of got me going at the beginning. 00:01:53.269 --> 00:01:56.849 From a young age, I lived in the UK a bit, but 00:01:56.849 --> 00:01:59.590 also grew up in Peru. I'm a half Peruvian, that's 00:01:59.590 --> 00:02:01.790 where my name Pancho comes from. And sort of 00:02:01.790 --> 00:02:04.609 living in Peru really kind of exposed me to inequalities 00:02:04.609 --> 00:02:07.890 within and between countries. and a real sense 00:02:07.890 --> 00:02:10.669 of like the kind of injustices that arise when 00:02:10.669 --> 00:02:13.830 we look at people's levels of kind of material 00:02:13.830 --> 00:02:17.530 well -being and consumption and so on. Kind of 00:02:17.530 --> 00:02:19.849 got me interested in politics. I was a local 00:02:19.849 --> 00:02:22.210 authority councillor in central London as you 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:24.669 as you mentioned in the introduction and it was 00:02:24.669 --> 00:02:27.090 only really when I was a councillor in Westminster 00:02:27.090 --> 00:02:30.090 that I became interested in sort of the planet 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:32.710 bit if you like. I was councillor during sort 00:02:32.710 --> 00:02:36.090 of 2019 when there was this big wave of climate 00:02:36.090 --> 00:02:38.389 emergency declarations, lots of people getting 00:02:38.389 --> 00:02:40.650 out on the streets. It was the sort of birth 00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:44.090 of Extinction Rebellion and Greta Thunberg's 00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:46.710 Fridays for the Future movement. and that got 00:02:46.710 --> 00:02:48.810 me kind of really interested in environmental 00:02:48.810 --> 00:02:53.050 and climate issues. So eventually I sort of took 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:55.330 that on board and became an academic researcher 00:02:55.330 --> 00:02:58.229 who specialises on net zero transitions and how 00:02:58.229 --> 00:03:01.530 people emotionally engage with climate as a problem. 00:03:01.770 --> 00:03:04.030 Now moving on to your research, so that's a really 00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:06.810 good background and a really interesting mix 00:03:06.810 --> 00:03:09.050 of cultures there that you've talked about and 00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:10.530 I know that we'll kind of allude to all of that 00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:12.009 later. It's very important when we're talking 00:03:12.009 --> 00:03:14.469 about climate change and who's most impacted 00:03:14.469 --> 00:03:17.430 of course by climate change and the climate crisis 00:03:17.430 --> 00:03:20.300 we're facing. So in your research and on the 00:03:20.300 --> 00:03:23.039 politics of net zero transitions, what do you 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.620 think some of the common misconceptions policymakers 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.680 have about the public attitudes towards climate 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.939 action? Because before you start, I read a figure, 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:34.620 and I think it's a government figure, it's spring 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:40.780 2023. 82 % of UK adults reported being fairly 00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:44.699 or very concerned about climate change, but about 00:03:44.699 --> 00:03:49.259 13 % of that are politically active in advancing 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:51.960 the cause of climate mitigation. So hence there's 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.740 a gap between people being concerned about it 00:03:54.740 --> 00:03:57.979 and people using their voice or being active 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:01.259 around this. That's such an important statistic 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:04.659 to look at. You said 82 % of people are either 00:04:04.659 --> 00:04:06.860 fairly or very concerned about climate change. 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:09.419 There's been a lot of stuff in the news recently 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:13.080 about a tax on net zero, different policies. 00:04:13.449 --> 00:04:16.750 ranging from renewables to decarbonising people's 00:04:16.750 --> 00:04:19.790 homes. There's a big kind of media campaign to 00:04:19.790 --> 00:04:23.230 try and undermine public support in these really 00:04:23.230 --> 00:04:26.269 important initiatives and that's really what's 00:04:26.269 --> 00:04:28.610 really important to bear in mind and for any 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:30.649 policymaker and any politician to bear in mind 00:04:30.649 --> 00:04:34.170 is that whilst those attacks have had some impact, 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.750 by and large people's concern for climate change 00:04:37.750 --> 00:04:40.790 remains really really very high and at the same 00:04:40.790 --> 00:04:43.370 time people want to see the government take pretty 00:04:43.370 --> 00:04:46.610 dramatic action. So I think that's really important 00:04:46.610 --> 00:04:49.209 to sort of like foreground and bear in mind. 00:04:49.850 --> 00:04:53.209 The other thing I think that is really worth 00:04:53.209 --> 00:04:56.470 considering and remembering is that there's this 00:04:56.470 --> 00:04:59.250 kind of myth that sort of circulates amongst 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:02.980 policymakers, national politicians, and so on. 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.060 And that myth is that people only ever accept 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:08.480 changes to their lifestyle if they're kind of 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:10.680 marginal, if they just don't notice those changes 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.720 happening. But that's, again, not true. I mean, 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:16.879 if policies and changes are enacted in a way 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.899 which are considered to be sort of fair by people, 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:21.920 people can see they're being carried through 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:25.180 in a way that doesn't kind of detrimentally impact 00:05:25.180 --> 00:05:28.740 a certain group of people. If they see that these 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:31.139 changes being done in consultation with people 00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:34.139 in genuine consultation in a kind of genuine 00:05:34.139 --> 00:05:36.660 two -way dialogue then they're much more likely 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:40.000 to be supportive and then finally people really 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.040 need to see that changes are happening in a way 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:44.480 they're effective there's a lot to be said about 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:47.899 making sure that government makes these changes 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:51.240 in a way which are really thought through carefully 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:55.610 planned and so on and if those three elements 00:05:55.610 --> 00:05:58.310 that I've just outlined now, if those aren't 00:05:58.310 --> 00:06:01.990 things that government are doing, then it's likely 00:06:01.990 --> 00:06:04.230 that the sort of conditions for a kind of backlash 00:06:04.230 --> 00:06:08.329 or resistance will emerge. But there's nothing 00:06:08.329 --> 00:06:10.910 inevitable about that and it's entirely possible 00:06:10.910 --> 00:06:13.519 to really make those big dramatic changes. So 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.860 let's talk about citizens and climate citizenship, 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:18.959 because I alluded to this when I introduced you, 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:20.339 because I know that you've written papers on 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:23.220 citizens' assemblies, for example. How do you 00:06:23.220 --> 00:06:26.579 really see that role of the kind of grassroots 00:06:26.579 --> 00:06:28.800 activism, if you like? I know citizens' assemblies 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.879 were something that was set up by local authorities. 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:33.199 And I think, and you have to correct me, it's 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.379 all about individual choices, whether it's consumption 00:06:36.379 --> 00:06:41.040 choices, or is it also about the way that's used 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:43.829 as kind of collective act? as a collective action, 00:06:44.050 --> 00:06:46.370 but how do you see the role of social movements 00:06:46.370 --> 00:06:50.610 and grassroots activism shaping national or local 00:06:50.610 --> 00:06:54.649 climate policies? And do you think there's an 00:06:54.649 --> 00:06:58.649 issue around whether people have faith or trust 00:06:58.649 --> 00:07:02.610 in authorities to do the right thing? Yeah, I 00:07:02.610 --> 00:07:05.149 think I'll take that question in two parts. So 00:07:05.149 --> 00:07:07.910 first I'll talk a little bit about climate assemblies 00:07:07.910 --> 00:07:10.670 and climate juries. And then I'll talk about 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:12.949 the role of social movements and sort of community 00:07:12.949 --> 00:07:15.490 organizing. The reason I separate them out is 00:07:15.490 --> 00:07:17.569 because they come from quite different places. 00:07:18.069 --> 00:07:19.990 Climate juries and climate assemblies are things 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:22.370 that local governments, usually your national 00:07:22.370 --> 00:07:25.329 governments, bring forward. On the other hand, 00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:27.810 movements and campaigning, these are things that 00:07:27.810 --> 00:07:31.180 emerge from the grassroots. So in terms of climate 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:33.759 assemblies and juries, I mean, I think they can 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:37.199 play a really big role in helping government 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:39.620 devise policies which are going to kind of work 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:42.519 and cut through with people. And the reason really 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.560 climate assemblies and juries are so important 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.500 is because we are talking about big changes to 00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:51.000 people's lives if net zero policies are being 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.079 put into practice. We're talking about changes 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.579 in regards to people's diets, potentially, how 00:07:57.579 --> 00:08:00.000 people get about, how people heat their homes, 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:02.500 and so on and so forth. So you can't make these 00:08:02.500 --> 00:08:05.540 changes in a top -down way without hoping that 00:08:05.540 --> 00:08:07.420 no one's going to notice. You've got to make 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:09.839 these changes in a way which are in dialogue 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.339 with people. So I think they can play a really 00:08:13.339 --> 00:08:17.160 big role. What I would say is that I think that 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:20.860 probably during the period of sort of 2019, 2020, 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:24.040 there was lots of sort of of hope invested in 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.120 climate assemblies and juries as a mechanism 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.259 for delivering quite big, transformative change 00:08:30.259 --> 00:08:33.490 and that maybe some people... almost approached 00:08:33.490 --> 00:08:37.009 it as a silver bullet. It's not a silver bullet. 00:08:37.070 --> 00:08:39.769 It's one thing that needs to be done alongside 00:08:39.769 --> 00:08:42.250 a series of other things if we're going to tackle 00:08:42.250 --> 00:08:44.769 the climate crisis. In regards to the second 00:08:44.769 --> 00:08:47.789 part of your question about community organizing, 00:08:48.309 --> 00:08:52.250 campaigning, and so on, I think I see grassroots 00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:55.470 activism playing a really important role, again, 00:08:55.470 --> 00:08:59.210 going back to those latter years in the 2010s. 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.879 we really did see a big increase in awareness 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.659 and political action around climate issues when 00:09:06.659 --> 00:09:10.179 XR, when Schools for the Future were... doing 00:09:10.179 --> 00:09:13.179 that amazing work they were doing. The UK Parliament 00:09:13.179 --> 00:09:16.320 declared a climate emergency after we saw this 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.919 big swell in grassroots movements, so it really 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:23.480 did affect significant change. What I would say 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.080 is that it's important always to think about 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.240 how grassroots organizing campaigns, how they 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.340 sort of either converge or collide with broader 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:35.429 kind of social political. economic factors on 00:09:35.429 --> 00:09:37.870 their own, they won't produce the changes we 00:09:37.870 --> 00:09:40.549 need to see. I really need to be kind of operating 00:09:40.549 --> 00:09:44.629 alongside the opportunities that exist in the 00:09:44.629 --> 00:09:47.990 in broader kind of societal dynamics. And I think 00:09:47.990 --> 00:09:50.429 one of the things that's happened recently is 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:53.750 that the conditions that we saw in the in those 00:09:53.750 --> 00:09:56.429 years in the latter stages, the 2010s, they've 00:09:56.429 --> 00:09:58.629 shifted quite considerably in the period we're 00:09:58.629 --> 00:10:01.429 living in now. And that that then means that 00:10:01.429 --> 00:10:03.649 campaigners need to reimagine their tactics and 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:06.230 think a bit differently about how to do climate 00:10:06.230 --> 00:10:09.190 campaigning nowadays. It would be nice to be 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:12.070 able to explain exactly what those citizen -led, 00:10:12.070 --> 00:10:14.389 you know, the citizen, climate citizen workshops 00:10:14.389 --> 00:10:16.549 are that are being set up by local authorities. 00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:19.730 But of course you have this balance and you've 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:21.529 been able to create this kind of, you've seen 00:10:21.529 --> 00:10:23.950 it from both sides already because you're working 00:10:23.950 --> 00:10:27.419 very much on the research. and the academic side 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:30.080 of it, which involves presumably a lot of data 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:32.799 as well coming in. But you've also been, as we 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.279 said earlier, a local representative on a council. 00:10:36.700 --> 00:10:39.460 What did you learn from your experience as a 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:42.200 local authority representative? And did you see 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:44.139 the power of community mobilising for climate 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:47.240 action in action when you were on that council? 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.620 And I'd like to know what lessons you learned 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:52.259 from that experience for yourself and that you 00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:56.090 can actually use in your academic work. It was 00:10:56.090 --> 00:10:58.730 really interesting because I was sitting there 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:00.990 as a newly elected counselor. I was elected in 00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:05.389 May 2018. I remember sitting in a council meeting 00:11:05.389 --> 00:11:09.590 in February 2019, so nearly a year in, and I 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:11.690 was looking around in one of these council meetings 00:11:11.690 --> 00:11:13.629 with people standing up and giving all these 00:11:13.629 --> 00:11:16.450 grandiose speeches, et cetera, et cetera. And 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:18.830 I noticed that no one was mentioning anything 00:11:18.830 --> 00:11:23.019 about climate change. And this is kind of possibly 00:11:23.019 --> 00:11:25.740 one of the most important councils in the country, 00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:27.620 Westminster Council, that's where you've got 00:11:27.620 --> 00:11:29.919 UK Parliament, it's where you've got Buckingham 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.460 Palace and so on. It was extraordinary that there 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:36.299 was such a big disconnect between what elected 00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:38.100 representatives were saying and what was going 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:41.419 on on the streets. So I was a Labour councillor 00:11:41.419 --> 00:11:43.419 and at the time it was a Conservative controlled 00:11:43.419 --> 00:11:46.899 council. And so I said, well, we have to do something 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:49.759 about this. It's extraordinary. How come we're 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:51.480 not picking up on all this movement that's happening 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:55.100 outside of Westminster Council walls? I worked 00:11:55.100 --> 00:11:57.779 with a bunch of different stakeholders, politicians 00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:00.759 from different parties, residents, community 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.059 groups, and so on, and adopted a whole series 00:12:04.059 --> 00:12:06.340 of tactics to try and get the council to declare 00:12:06.340 --> 00:12:09.299 a climate emergency and commit to net zero by 00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.860 2040, I think it was. At the beginning, it was 00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:14.720 a huge amount of resistance. The response I received 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.799 was, we don't do things like this. Why would 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.480 a local authority declare an emergency over something 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.159 it doesn't have full control over? The sense 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.480 in the room was really like, this is not something 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:29.159 that we could possibly do, kind of thing. We 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:31.519 just kept at it. We kept going. We kept going. 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.870 And four or five months later, they were passing 00:12:34.870 --> 00:12:36.970 a climate emergency declaration. Things have 00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:39.629 shifted. They felt the pressure. They knew the 00:12:39.629 --> 00:12:41.769 time had come to start recognizing this as a 00:12:41.769 --> 00:12:45.090 problem. And very, very, very, I think this is 00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:47.450 the key point to sort of underscore, very, very 00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:50.629 rapidly attitudes changed. So things can change 00:12:50.629 --> 00:12:53.169 very, very quickly. We aren't all stuck in one 00:12:53.169 --> 00:12:56.649 way of operating. That's an opportunity, but 00:12:56.649 --> 00:12:59.909 it's also a risk because we can also see things 00:12:59.909 --> 00:13:02.149 backslide in the other direction. Arguably, that's 00:13:02.149 --> 00:13:04.779 what's happening. with climate and net zero politics 00:13:04.779 --> 00:13:07.059 today. And that's interesting you mentioned Westminster 00:13:07.059 --> 00:13:09.080 because we also work at SELIX, we have worked 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.220 with Westminster on some very big decarbonisation 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:14.440 projects and big public buildings, town halls 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.960 etc and they've made huge strides over the last 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.759 few years and exactly after the period that you're 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.580 talking about so quite incredible that things 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:28.779 can change so quickly but perhaps things aren't 00:13:28.779 --> 00:13:31.750 going fast enough. We could all argue things 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:34.629 aren't going fast enough. Moving back to your 00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:37.590 research at Lancaster, what lessons from your 00:13:37.590 --> 00:13:39.950 doctoral research at Lancaster are most relevant 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:42.490 for policymakers? And I know there's a lot there 00:13:42.490 --> 00:13:45.190 and I'm asking you a big question and we've got 00:13:45.190 --> 00:13:47.730 limited time, but what lessons do you think are 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:49.789 most relevant for policymakers and politicians 00:13:49.789 --> 00:13:53.509 trying to implement sustainable practices today? 00:13:53.980 --> 00:13:56.000 Very briefly, I'll provide just a little bit 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:59.080 of context. I carried out my research in West 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.259 Cumbria, so a very different context to Westminster. 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:06.860 Talking about the most urban part of London, 00:14:07.340 --> 00:14:09.159 in the case of Westminster, shifting out to the 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.460 northwest of England right alongside the Scottish 00:14:12.460 --> 00:14:15.480 border, a really remote rural disconnected area. 00:14:16.539 --> 00:14:19.600 And the place had become a bit of a hotbed of 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.980 energy politics during the period I was doing 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:25.600 my PhD and there was a really simple reason for 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.559 that and that's that there were plans to open 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.480 up a new coal mine in the area where I was conducting 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.240 my field work. This would have been kind of the 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.360 first coal mine that the UK would have opened 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:42.539 in something like 20 or 30 years. So really controversial 00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:44.899 but I was trying to understand why residents 00:14:44.899 --> 00:14:47.120 in the area by and large seemed to support the 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.960 coal mine. And I found sort of two things. First, 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.700 in line with what we've been discussing earlier, 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:57.039 people in the area in West Cumbria were very 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.480 concerned about climate change. They were concerned 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:03.279 about its impacts on their kids, its impacts 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:06.220 on them today. They could see that weather events 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:09.340 were changing. And at the same time, there was 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:12.139 strong local support for this coal mine to open. 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.279 Just to really cut a long story short, it really 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.899 just came down to the promise of the delivery 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:21.440 of new jobs in the area. Whilst people wanted 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:23.980 to see the government do more to reduce emissions, 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:26.679 they couldn't see any clean industries being 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.580 delivered in their area. So they got behind that 00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:31.419 coal mine. There was also an important part. 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.440 of the story here which is about the kind of 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.340 cultural heritage of coal and how it connects 00:15:35.340 --> 00:15:38.460 with people's identities and the sort of Australian 00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:40.620 mining company who were seeking to open up the 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.100 coal mine did a really good kind of PR job of 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:46.580 connecting up that past with the promise of future 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:50.200 economic development. So the lesson for government, 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.940 kind of like really simple on one level, is you've 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:54.659 got to deliver those alternative industries. 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:56.940 if you're going to get people behind net zero. 00:15:57.340 --> 00:16:00.220 I think one of the reasons why we're seeing this 00:16:00.220 --> 00:16:02.720 slightly strange situation where the levels of 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:05.600 concern about climate remain very high and yet. 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.279 kind of backing for the net zero as a project 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.340 is slightly declining is because people are seeing 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:15.100 that the net zero project itself in some ways 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:18.360 has not been worked through as carefully as it 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.399 should have been. We're not seeing all the policies 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.019 being delivered in the way they should. And people 00:16:24.019 --> 00:16:26.700 also don't fully trust the capacity of government 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:29.600 to make these more transformative changes. That's 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.179 a real problem. We'd have to spend a lot longer 00:16:32.179 --> 00:16:34.279 talking about exactly what's going on with net 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.220 zero. I don't want to come across as if I were 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:39.500 like being overly critical of the project because 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:41.360 it is what we've got at the moment and it is 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:43.460 what's helping us move forward and good things 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:45.340 are happening but there are things we need to 00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:47.279 work through at the moment we haven't actually 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.840 quite precisely worked out. Yeah that's interesting 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.860 and it is that storytelling so and that was when 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:55.639 you talk about that coal mine and then you talk 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.809 about the green jobs and the alternatives. yeah 00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:01.269 everybody knows from what we're saying and what 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:03.269 you're saying is we know that climate we need 00:17:03.269 --> 00:17:06.369 to take climate action but we need to know where 00:17:06.369 --> 00:17:08.730 we're going don't we so it's the way we're telling 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:12.430 that story and the emotional storytelling as 00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:15.009 well because obviously people need to put food 00:17:15.009 --> 00:17:18.250 on the table but we need to it is also something 00:17:18.250 --> 00:17:21.170 that comes from the heart as well. How do you 00:17:21.170 --> 00:17:25.430 think that we can encourage because the more 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:29.380 information we have I suppose that we see climate 00:17:29.380 --> 00:17:31.940 on our news, some kind of climate story on our 00:17:31.940 --> 00:17:36.880 news most days. Do you think that the more awareness 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.519 of climate then perhaps can lead to the greater 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.640 pessimism about what's happening? Is that, do 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.000 you think, an issue? Well I think the simple 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.140 answer is yes because I don't think we should 00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:50.519 underestimate the scale of problems that exist 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:52.460 in the future. We are talking about a huge huge 00:17:52.460 --> 00:17:56.829 issue and there's no a simple solution to very, 00:17:56.829 --> 00:18:00.069 very rapidly decarbonizing. Having said that, 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:02.630 I don't think we do necessarily all need to sort 00:18:02.630 --> 00:18:05.130 of fall into a pattern of thinking, which is 00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:07.750 all about despair, because there are lots of 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:10.509 things to be hopeful about. We are seeing some 00:18:10.509 --> 00:18:13.769 good policies come through. We are seeing a rapid 00:18:13.769 --> 00:18:16.789 increase in renewables, certainly in places like 00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:20.609 the UK and elsewhere. There are changes on the 00:18:20.609 --> 00:18:23.700 ground that are happening, but also people are 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.460 affecting change. We were talking about community 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:29.819 organizing and grassroots campaigns earlier on. 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:32.500 These things are having a real kind of... big 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:35.640 impacts, I really wouldn't underestimate that. 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.359 And what that tells people who are listening 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.579 to this podcast and also listening to other podcasts 00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:44.640 and thinking about this issue is that what we 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:46.980 do as individuals and what we do in our communities 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:49.599 really, really matters. You know, it might seem 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:52.980 like climate is a huge global problem, but change 00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:55.619 that starts at the individual level and the community 00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:58.680 level can kind of scale up. to the regional level, 00:18:58.900 --> 00:19:01.480 the national level and then the international 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:06.259 level. I truly believe that as well, that the 00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:08.500 power is really at the grassroots level and it's 00:19:08.500 --> 00:19:12.480 how we use that and how all of the groups and 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.880 concerns are connected within that. Apologies, 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.549 I interrupted you. The only other thing I was 00:19:19.549 --> 00:19:22.490 going to say is that what I also think is that 00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:25.890 if people feel apathy or people feel despair, 00:19:26.329 --> 00:19:28.109 that these aren't things that we necessarily 00:19:28.109 --> 00:19:31.069 need to associate as being negative, that these 00:19:31.069 --> 00:19:34.490 emotions have an important role in the politics 00:19:34.490 --> 00:19:37.829 of net zero transitions and climate. So despair, 00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:39.890 for example, can be quite a productive feeling. 00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:41.869 So if you think, for example, about some of the 00:19:41.869 --> 00:19:44.609 greenwashing that we hear about, corporate greenwashing, 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:46.670 for example, oil and gas companies saying, oh, 00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:48.279 we're going to develop all these magical solutions 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:50.680 which are going to suck out carbon from the atmosphere. 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.079 Don't get me wrong, there is a role for CCS, 00:19:53.099 --> 00:19:55.299 it's just more limited than it's usually acknowledged. 00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:57.500 When people hear this stuff they sometimes feel 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.319 despair and it's right to feel despair because 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.640 often these are just things that are not true. 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:04.779 So despair can have its own kind of political 00:20:04.779 --> 00:20:06.960 momentum and energy and that's important to recognise. 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:09.700 And then finally, even when people feel a sense 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:13.539 of apathy or disconnection or they lose inspiration, 00:20:13.700 --> 00:20:17.150 again that's an important part of any political 00:20:17.150 --> 00:20:20.210 cycle. Campaigners and activists aren't out on 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:24.029 the streets all the time 24 -7 for 80 years or 00:20:24.029 --> 00:20:26.210 however long they live. They go through cycles 00:20:26.210 --> 00:20:28.809 of being inspired and then kind of withdrawing, 00:20:28.990 --> 00:20:31.170 regaining kind of the energies that they need, 00:20:31.690 --> 00:20:33.890 rethinking their strategies, becoming creative, 00:20:34.450 --> 00:20:38.109 and then reconnecting. And so apathy, you know, 00:20:38.309 --> 00:20:40.509 it can be an important part of that process. 00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:43.430 It's easy to rush and say, okay, well, these 00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:46.430 feelings they're not quite right, we should judge 00:20:46.430 --> 00:20:49.349 them, but actually they all play, I think they 00:20:49.349 --> 00:20:51.450 all can play a pretty productive role in environmental 00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:53.990 politics. So not to stand back from that and 00:20:53.990 --> 00:20:56.470 to realise that those emotions of despair, whether 00:20:56.470 --> 00:20:58.809 it's apathy, whether it's despair, can be used 00:20:58.809 --> 00:21:02.970 to create action at some point and be used in 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:06.170 a positive way. Can I just ask, my final question 00:21:06.170 --> 00:21:10.369 really, is what next for you then? Because you've 00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:13.430 had a really interesting background. You've got 00:21:13.430 --> 00:21:15.589 your teeth stuck in some incredible research 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:19.009 having an impact on policy. What next for you 00:21:19.009 --> 00:21:21.589 in your career? Well at the moment I'm really 00:21:21.589 --> 00:21:24.069 continuing to be sort of focused on my academic 00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:27.740 stuff. Going back to the answer I just gave earlier, 00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:32.700 things go in cycles, changes more circular than 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.900 linear sometimes. At the moment, I'm doing my 00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:38.660 academia. Later on, I might foreground or spend 00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:40.660 more time doing campaigning like I did earlier. 00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:43.279 But the immediate next step is to think about 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.819 some research proposals to access new grants, 00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:49.240 to carry out more research, probably like a three 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.559 or four year project. The thing that I'm really 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.180 interested in at the moment is thinking critically 00:21:55.180 --> 00:21:57.759 about some of the kind of growth mantras that 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.779 we hear. You know, the Labour government, I was 00:21:59.779 --> 00:22:01.220 a Labour councillor, so you know, that's where 00:22:01.220 --> 00:22:04.720 my party allegiances historically lay. But at 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.519 the moment, with the Labour government, we just 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:07.839 hear them talking about growth the whole time, 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.960 right? And of course, improving people's material, 00:22:11.019 --> 00:22:14.180 that stance of living is important. But the problem 00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:15.859 with the growth, growth, growth, growth, growth 00:22:15.859 --> 00:22:17.839 mantra is that it kind of suggests that that's 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.859 the the only way we can move forward and that's 00:22:20.859 --> 00:22:24.059 the only desirable future but actually people 00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:25.940 are capable and i think i've sort of hinted at 00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:28.819 this earlier people are capable of living in 00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:30.940 lots of different ways you know we haven't always 00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:33.740 lived these really high carbon energy intensive 00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:37.369 lifestyles we've lived in lots of ways And people 00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:39.490 nowadays living under kind of modern economic 00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:41.890 conditions, not everyone chooses to live such 00:22:41.890 --> 00:22:44.950 a fossil fuels and energy intensive lifestyle. 00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:47.349 So I'm interested in really tracking and tracing 00:22:47.349 --> 00:22:49.509 those people who kind of challenge sometimes 00:22:49.509 --> 00:22:52.950 in quite subtle ways growth mantras. The interesting 00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:54.730 thing is that if you speak to a lot of people, 00:22:54.809 --> 00:22:57.130 I was in the pub the other day with a friend 00:22:57.130 --> 00:22:59.710 of mine, a guy who works in the city of London, 00:22:59.970 --> 00:23:02.549 he's not someone who's like a hippie living in 00:23:02.549 --> 00:23:05.369 a commune just eating lentils, this is this guy 00:23:05.369 --> 00:23:07.390 who lives a certain lifestyle, and he turned 00:23:07.390 --> 00:23:09.130 around and told me that he thought the growth 00:23:09.130 --> 00:23:12.849 imperative was at odds with environmental sustainability, 00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:14.549 and that really got me thinking, it's like this 00:23:14.549 --> 00:23:17.960 guy who... you know we would imagine as someone 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.339 who might be very very attached to sort of energy 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:24.240 intensive living flying everywhere etc even he's 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.339 beginning to see sort of that maybe the two things 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:29.000 don't quite add up i'm interested in thinking 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:30.900 about these you know these kind of fissures these 00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:34.180 tensions these things that signal that maybe 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:37.140 there are other ways of living Thank you to Pancho 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:40.480 Lewis for spending time with us today and providing 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.400 such insight. There can be no doubt that climate 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.299 change is the biggest challenge of our time. 00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:47.599 Today we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.519 to slow global warming. Today we must act for 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:52.779 tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current 00:23:52.779 --> 00:23:55.319 and future impacts of climate change. Today we 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.819 must use our collective wisdom to deliver on 00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:01.059 our climate commitments. Today we work for tomorrow's 00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:04.299 world. Thank you once again to Pancho and don't 00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:06.900 forget to subscribe to our podcast channels and 00:24:06.900 --> 00:24:10.619 tell us what you think. Email us at podcast at 00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:15.440 salixfinance .co .uk. Thank you once again to 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.019 Pancho. Thanks, Anna. Thank you. You've been 00:24:18.019 --> 00:24:20.920 listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:24.200 podcast from Salix. For more information about 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.700 our work and to find more content, please visit 00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:31.920 salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.