You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on
Climate Change, our collective challenge. Welcome
to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah
Walker and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. My guest today is Rachael Orr
and Rachael is the... Chief Executive of Climate
Outreach, which I believe is the first British
charity to focus exclusively on public engagement
with climate change. Rachael's job is to deliver
defining overall strategy, goals and impact.
Rachael has spent her career in the voluntary
sector in leadership roles, combining a deep
commitment to social justice and to public engagement.
She has run campaigns for shelter, led program
and campaigning work at Oxfam and currently serves
as Chair of Trustees at the Refugee Council.
It was her last role leading a network of housing
associations that Rachael really appreciated the
huge gap in public awareness and engagement on
climate change. We know that housing, like many
sectors, needs to decarbonize. Rachael is a mom,
I believe, of two young children, so she's busy.
But as I always say, if you want something to
be done, to get done, you ask the busiest person
you know. And I think that certainly gets stuff
done. So welcome to Rachael. Thanks Hannah, lovely
to be here. Thank you. Now Rachel, tell us a
little bit about how you started in your career
and what drives you and your values because you've
gone from leadership roles in housing and social
justice to climate engagement. Where does that
start? So I come from a family of teachers, social
workers, community development workers, so a
kind of combination of sort of thoughtfulness
and a passion for equality and social justice.
mixed in with people who believe in rolling their
sleeves up and kind of cracking on and getting
stuff done. So those have been kind of guiding
forces in my life growing up. took me after a
degree in English and politics at Liverpool University
to the voluntary sector. I was really lucky to
start working in Shelter's press office. I was
able to do a huge amount of, I think, really
important and impactful work there and also just
learn a huge amount about communication, about
people and about the kind of broader sector.
And then in terms of kind of moving into climate.
So, yes, as you mentioned, I was running a network
for chief executives of place -based housing
associations so these are people running kind
of you know multi -million pound organizations
in some of the most deprived areas in the country
and I remember about probably four or five years
ago having a round table with about 20 CEOs and
saying to them what's the thing that keeps you
awake at night and I was expecting them to talk
about the kind of really deep levels of poverty
and deprivation about the anti -social behavior
about challenges around funding and to a man
and woman they said How on earth are we going
to decarbonize all of our housing stock? And
the really, really kind of wicked challenge that
they felt within that was how do we bring people
with us? You know, one brilliant leader who I
worked with, she put it in a way that always
kind of sticks in my head. She said, how do I
sit down with a mum of three kids? I know that
they only have one bedroom, so her kids are sharing
a bed. How do I tell her that I might spend 10
grand on her property? She's not getting an extra
bedroom. She's not getting an outside space to
dry her clothes. She's getting a heat pump. How
do I begin that conversation about why that's
important, why that's a priority? And I thought
there must be an organization that helps people
have those conversations. And I find climate
outreach. I see that. That's such a good point,
isn't it? It is telling that story and how does
that become necessary and important for somebody.
Now, climate outreach, which takes us nicely
onto defining climate outreach's unique goal
in the climate and role in the climate movement.
Can you tell us a little bit about your research
and how you do support organizations to tell
that very different story or to tell a story?
Because I know that you offer various training,
research, workshops, etc. So I think what climate
outreach has always sought to do is to think
about climate communication from listening first
rather than broadcasting and I think an awful
lot of communication especially communication
that comes from campaigning organization that
comes from people who are deeply knowledgeable
and deeply passionate often starts with talking
this is what you need to know this is what you
need to understand And actually what a lot of
really drew me into climate outreach was thinking,
how do we start by listening? How do we start
by understanding where different people are,
how they see the world, how their values, the
kind of underpin all bits of their life, link
to how they think and feel and understand climate
change. So an awful lot of climate outreach's
work, almost always delivered in partnership,
has been building links with trade unions or
the Women's Institute or communities in places
and sort of trying to understand how the people
that they are working with think and feel and
understand climate change. and then work with
them to think about how they could maybe shift
some of their communications or messaging so
that it lands to a broader range of people. And
then we've also done more kind of national level
studies where we've kind of taken that approach
but used it to do focus groups and surveys and
kind of more in -depth bits of work. and then
try to produce some kind of insights and guidelines
for people who are thinking about how they might
alter their communications and their messaging
a bit so that it can resonate with different
audiences and kind of people of different backgrounds
or maybe different political persuasions. And
I'm glad you've mentioned the Women's Institute
actually because I was lucky enough to interview
Emma Holland -Lindsey from the Women's Institute.
and talking about that messaging and that grassroots
and how you tell that message around people and
where it starts and where it goes and I think
you do you have something called climate ambassadors
is that right is that what you call it at climate
outreach climate ambassadors and how does that
exactly tie in with that? We've used this kind
of ambassador model in lots of different forums.
We've worked on it with Women's Institute, you
know, how can their kind of sort of community
leaders think of themselves in terms of their
personal climate story. And we've also run a
similar kind of program with climate scientists.
And that particular initiative came about because
we had some climate scientists approach us and
say to us, we're deeply knowledgeable and passionate
about this, but we don't... We don't think we're
very good sometimes at kind of, you know, the
kind of explaining and public communication about
it. How can we think about the messaging that
we can use to more effectively kind of talk to
people about what's happening, about what's happening
in climate science, but how it kind of connect
with them. We've done some work both at a kind
of social science level. So the social science
will tell you that unfortunately facts aren't
that effective as a mechanism of communication.
Scientists are brilliant at facts. Knowing the
facts is obviously essential but we are social
animals and what most people want is connection
and story and kind of empathy with kind of their
own lives and their own kind of struggles. So
our science ambassadors program worked with a
lot of climate scientists to help them think
about how they could communicate not just the
science but like communicate as themselves as
scientists, you know, how do you as someone who
is talking about climate bring the kind of personal
dimension into it and that's something I've certainly
found kind of moving from an issue like housing,
like everybody has somewhere that they live,
whether that's somewhere that's good or somewhere
that's less good, whereas quite a lot of climate
communication can feel very much about facts
and science and we sometimes leave the people
behind trying to work with people about How do
you bring that to the fore more? How do you bring
that kind of empathy with your audience? And
it was, yeah, it was a really interesting process
doing that with climate scientists. And that
model is something that we do when we're, you
know, working in partnership with anyone, as
I say, from kind of climate scientists or maybe
to charities or community groups, community leaders
as well. So, yeah, because I do speak to quite
a few scientists and engineers and we talk a
lot about statistics and facts because we need
those, because we need to know that things are
warming up, we need to know how we're responding,
but essentially we're driven by emotion and we're
driven by the heart, aren't we, and those stories.
And there's a lot of social science research,
so essentially your job is to get that social
science research and find the very best to tell
that story. which takes us on to kind of the
kinds of stories we're seeing on our news, because
we see climate crisis stories regularly on our
news, whether it's flooding, whether it's fires,
et cetera. From your experience, why do you think
there is such a gap in the public understanding
of climate issues? And why do you think we're
finding it quite hard to tell that very real
climate story? Because we've got, for example,
we've got climate migration, which is a big issue.
and the perception of climate migrants. We see
the perception of climate migrants in our news
as well. What are the issues around that? What
advice would you give to a new organization or
to any organization coming? Because you've also
worked with The Guardian, for example, because
I know you've helped shape editorial standards
and guidelines at The Guardian in terms of climate
photojournalism, I think. And maybe you can talk
a little bit about that. And you've also launched
a campaign called I think it's Shall We Love?
Tell us how practical that is to bring those
statistics to life. The first thing I would say
is people across the UK really care about climate
change. They're really worried about it and they
really care about it. They see those news stories
of climate impact and they're worried. What a
lot of people say to us is when they're worried
about something, they try not to think about
it. And actually, that's quite a normal human
response, right? I'm quite worried that I might
get cancer one day, but I don't think about it.
Obviously, the people who've chosen to work on
climate, we're so worried about this that it
drives us to lean in more. But that's a bit of
a difference. But I think it's a mistake to assume
that just because people aren't talking about
climate all the time, they don't know that it's
important and they're not worried about it every
time we do. kind of population -wide surveys,
every time we talk to people about this, you
know, people get it, they're worried about it,
and they're starting to notice climate impacts,
not just around the world, but locally as well.
You know, more and more people are saying, it's
not just the weather, is it? You know, my local
community is flooded. So, you know, I think that
kind of realization is growing. I think there's
a few key things. So, first of all, I think it's
really important that we find a way when we're
telling, when the news is telling those stories
about climate impact, that we name climate change.
Some journalists, some media outlets, some weather
reporters do that, but it doesn't happen across
the board at all. And of course, we need to think
about how we do that and we need to do it sensitively.
But I don't think it's OK anymore for us just
to have kind of report after report of kind of
wild weather. You know, there needs to be more
that consistently says, you know, these are some
of the why and this is how it links to the fact
that the kind of the kind of planet is warming.
We have to balance some of those stories of despair
and destruction with progress. because the other
thing that people don't know enough about is
that we are making progress. And I also think
this is a bit of a challenge for kind of climate
campaigners and climate advocates, because what
we feel is the progress isn't fast enough. And
a lot of, you know, what you'll get from climate
campaigners is we're not doing enough and we
know we're not, we're not doing enough. But what
people who don't think about this every day just
here is it's all negative there is no positive
to be had there at all so actually we need the
stories of progress we need to keep telling people
like we've halved our emissions since the 1990s
50 percent of our electricity is now powered
by renewables like when you tell people that
they're like wow really that's incredible that
makes me feel better that makes me feel good
So we need to find the stories of progress and
we need to find the storytellers of progress
as well. You know, of course we need the scientists,
but we need the innovators and the community
leaders who are kind of powering the green transition
as well. So I think there's definitely something
about how we balance stories and the storytellers.
And I think it's how we sort of, you know, talk
about that sort of honestly and kind of openly
and sensitively, like the vast majority of people
who are moving because of climate change are
doing so within their countries. or across country
borders, they're not coming to the UK. There's
a big risk around some of this that we start
telling scare stories. We've got to tackle climate
change so there isn't more migration. That is
a terrible, terrible thing for us to be falling
into the trap of doing. So I think how do we
tell the people's story and the kind of sensitive
story, but also what are the things that are
resonant and relevant to people's daily lives
and how are we kind of starting more of our our
kind of communication and storytelling from from
there. Yes now you've also work or do work with
the IPCC which is of course the Intergovernmental
Panel on Climate Change. Can you tell me a little
bit about that work what how what influence have
you had there? So that the main piece of work
we did with the IPCC was a few years ago where
they kind of asked us to help shape a chapter
they were writing specifically around kind of
public engagement and communication and that
was what sparked some of our partnerships with
some of the scientists that I mentioned. For
me the kind of exciting thing about that was
that the real sort of start I think of a realization
from that kind of broader science community that
we all have a role in how we think about the
kind of communication and kind of storytelling
about this and how we can help move beyond this
just being a climate sector kind of story. This
is now not just kind of an issue of climate change.
It's kind of, you know, it's going to fundamentally
kind of affect all of our lives and jobs and
communities, but also, you know, it's going to
fundamentally kind of rewire our economy. So
for me, there were, I mean, obviously the kind
of, you know, privilege and prestige of being
invited to kind of work with the IPCC but actually
that kind of realization from people in those
kind of deeply expert policy circles about the
need for and their role in thinking about how
we sort of take this out kind of beyond the kind
of climate science world into people's kind of
everyday lives and how we could help to kind
of them think about that. Yes, if there's one
piece of advice you would give to leaders in
the voluntary sector? who want to focus on climate
change, what would it be? I would say three things.
I'll be a bit cheeky, I'll give them three. So
one is, I think, be really practical. What can
you do in your business? And it's absolutely
fine to start small. And we say this all the
time with, you know, thinking about kind of motivating
people to act, like start with things that feel
like small actions and then they can grow bigger.
So I think, you know, what could what could you
do within your organization or your supply chain
that you know could make a kind of initial difference
in terms of tackling climate change reducing
carbon emissions. The second thing is I would
say talk to your staff there will be people who
work for your organization who are really passionate
about this issue who have ideas and who would
love to be consulted on what more your business
can do. And I think the third thing is don't
underestimate the kind of role you have as a
leader, but as a person, like what is your personal
climate story? What does this mean to you? Like
it might not mean that much to you. You know,
I used to meet people in the housing sector and
they'd be like, I'm not really bought into climate
change, but this is really good for my business.
And I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, but
I think like being honest about it, you know,
leaders who say. I'm doing this because my kids
are on at me all the time. Why does it matter
personally to you? And I think people really
kind of respect that and want to kind of come
along with you if you can do that as a leader.
I think that last point is a very good point,
actually, thinking again about what it means
to you. And I think some of us take it for granted,
don't we? I love for the environment. I love
the planet. are, if we're fortunate enough, we've
spent a lot of time outdoors in incredible scenery
and just having great respect for that and awe
for our natural world, which kind of drives us
to want to protect it and safeguard it. Now,
I would like to go back to you as a parent because
I'd like to know how your role, and it's the
most important role, isn't it? How does your
role as a mother influence your perspective on
climate advocacy and long -term impact? So my
kids are eight and six now so it definitely sits
in two camps. When they were smaller the main
camp it sat in was me going oh my goodness like
what is you know. What am I doing with my life
that means that the world I'll leave my kids
is one that you know I think is a bit better
than when I found it um both you know really
locally in terms of what I'm doing in my household
or in my community but yeah what am I doing uh
in terms of my job but I now find that I have
two brilliantly inquisitive minds who are asking
me a bunch of questions all the time about the
type of car we drive and why we're or taking
a bike rather than taking a car. And that's amazing.
And they get quite a lot of that from school.
There's things that they're kind of talking about
in their classrooms, which I think is fantastic.
And obviously, we're talking from home about
it. But I'm definitely starting to feel the kind
of push from them about the kind of choices that
we're making as a family, which is brilliant.
Occasionally uncomfortable, but really brilliant.
So yeah, it's kind of twofold, really, my responsibility.
But then also, yeah, like responding to questions
and needs that they are bringing to me. It's
hard isn't it being a parent especially of young
children and trying to be sustainable as well
just on a practical basis as well. It's a real
challenge isn't it? Absolutely. Fantastic and
of course hopefully they do correct you because
they'll walk behind you and tell you to turn
off the lights and stop running the tap and you
know all of those things that are important.
Rachel can I ask what next for you in your career?
You've achieved so much what next? Thank you.
I better not say too much and kiss my boss. I'm
always driven by how we can kind of have impact
and bring people with us and so right now my
job at Climate Outreach is how we can do that
on as big a scale as possible which you know
one of the things I really love about Climate
Outreach is we always seek to work in partnerships
so trying to explore a kind of new partnerships
you know how can we get our research to people.
You know, I'm thinking about elections that are
happening in the next 12 months. Who are all
the campaign groups who are going to be thinking
about climate in the run up to those elections?
Can we help them think about their kind of messaging
and their story? You know, thinking about what
are the kind of big picture sort of stories and
narratives that we might need in the UK in the
next few years and what role could climate outreach
have in kind of sort of shaping those? I think
that we are always better when people who believe
in the same outcomes and the same ends are working
together, so trying to forge some partnerships
across the sector to keep up the momentum that
we've had on progress on climate, which has potentially
felt a wee bit bumpy in the last few months.
But I think there's so many brilliant people
and there's so much energy in this sector. trying
to think about how we can be a really good partner
and help sort of harness that moving forward.
I think that's certainly a great message because
it's a common thread actually is that togetherness
and being able to achieve and then you mentioned
the word brilliance as well because there are
so many brilliant people working in this area
and together we can achieve so much more. So
thank you very much to Rachel Orr who is the
Chief Executive Officer of Climate Outreach.
There can be no doubt that climate change is
the biggest challenge of our time. Today we must
reduce greenhouse gas emissions to slow global
warming. Today we must act for tomorrow, adjusting
our lifestyles to current and future impacts
of climate change. Today we must use our collective
wisdom to deliver on our climate commitments.
Today we work for tomorrow's world. Don't forget
to subscribe to our podcast channels and to email
us at podcast .salixfinance .co .uk with your
ideas. Thank you very much to Rachel. Thank you.
Thank you. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information
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