You're listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. My guest is John Savage,
who is a Southampton City Councillor. John is
a lifelong labour supporter with membership since
1987. He has lived in Southampton for more than
13 years where he's raised his children. John
has been a Southampton City Councillor for more
than four years supporting local people in a
range of casework and delivering numerous projects
across the ward. John has been chair of the Planning
and Rights of Way panel and is now cabinet member
for Environment and Net Zero. So today we're
going to talk about local plans and how they
can play a big difference. and influence and
our UK pledge, of course, which is to reach net
zero carbon emissions by 2050. So welcome to
John. Hi, Hannah. Nice to be talking to you.
So tell us a little bit about what makes you
tick, John. What has driven you to pursue a career
in politics? Where does that start and how do
you believe you can make change happen? I'm from
Liverpool originally, and I was brought up in
a single parent family. My father left when I
was one. And I suppose I got a real sense of
what was fair and what was right from my mother
who brought me up alone until I was actually
probably about eight. I've got a slightly complicated
background because my mother was married three
times. I have two stepfathers and I have two
siblings from each of those other fathers. And
there's a whole load of stuff that kind of goes
with that. but one of the things that got instilled
with me in an early age was the issue around
travel. My mum went for the Cunard shipping company,
in fact a Brockle Bank steamship company before
that, and my first holiday was on a cargo ship
and she used to bring home stamps from the office
and I had them all in my collection book and
it had like an atlas in there as well and I almost
used to sort of traveled the world in that way
through just looking at the atlas and where all
these stamps came from. I ended up the first
member of my family to go to university. I'm
a bit of a generalist. I started studying a science
degree and then ended up doing a politics and
history degree. When I finished that, I ended
up traveling to Africa and teaching in Sudan
a long time ago now. and I actually eventually
traveled the length of Africa and traveled all
over the place and I saw an awful lot of injustice
and I felt that sense of fairness that wanted
to I could shape other people's lives if I made
a difference and I came back to this country
did lots of different jobs since but a lot of
them have been around hopefully making a difference
in other people's lives. I was a teacher for
17 years. I worked for four years with people
with learning disabilities. I've done an awful
lot, too much to talk about in this podcast actually.
So it is really making a difference that's driving
a whole number of factors there about the way
your childhood was shaped. Now we're talking
today about climate change and climate, in fact
we're facing climate crisis. What part do you
think local government decision making has to
play? in changing how we all operate and addressing
climate change and seeking those solutions. It's
a really difficult one this because I think it's
really vital that we set the agenda. The things
that are important and the things that we need
to do. There's lots of stuff that we are doing
and will be doing. Some of them become quite
contentious and it's very difficult operating
in the political world where You know, let's
face it, if we want to introduce some kind of
a system, let's say a pedestrianization of an
area and then, you know, your opposition are
chomping on the bit that they're that we are
against cars and so on and so forth. We have
to live in a political climate and we have to
try to bring people with us. It's really, really
difficult. But there's an awful lot of things
that we have been doing and continue to do things
we can do locally, particularly around clean
air, our transport policy. We've done an awful
lot over the last few years. I'm a little bit
sad about the outcome of one particular scheme,
the Portswood Broadway scheme, which in the end
didn't go through because we didn't bring the
local people with us on that one. But we've developed
bus lanes so that we can improve bus travel,
more protected cycle lanes. We need to do more
of those, but we are increasing the amount of
cycling in the city to make it safer for people
to get around in different ways. We look at those
areas where we've got part of the city where
wards in Southampton more than half the people
who live there haven't got access to a car and
we need to be able to provide appropriate choices
for all of those people. It really is looking
at as in terms of local authority to be very
clear It's influencing that local plan as you
say the transport planning you have an influence
over development as well and clean air zones
presumably Yeah, as well as those cycle paths
and of course parking policies around all of
that as well. Absolutely There's something about
all that that you I have to remember that Southampton
was the first city in the country to develop
geothermal, transforming the city in the way
that we deal with our energy and we can sell
that story really, really well. We've got plans
for that going forward. You might talk about
that a bit later. We're also a port and we have
an awful lot of emissions that come from our
port and we've got other real problems in the
city with regard to electrical supply and it's
actually a really complex issue and but we can
change some of these things and we can bring
people with us but we're living in an area where
political disagreements will happen and we have
had in the past certain parties who I've spoken
to in full council who are thinking that climate
change doesn't even really exist it's not an
issue for them. How do you see climate change
impacting Southampton and the area around it
for example in the next 10 to 20 years, because
climate change risks are great. We're looking
at climate change, we're looking at climate crisis,
we're looking at climate news on our news most
days. How do you see those risks and how it impacts
the communities? We have really good weather
in Southampton. I mentioned I came originally
from the north of England. We get excellent weather
here. It's warm, largely dry, almost a microclimate
in this position and location to the Isle of
Wight. We get really quite low rainfall. One
of the impacts for the city is droughts and very,
very high temperatures affecting the lives of
the people who live here. Fortunately, we are
quite a green city in that we've got an awful
lot of tree cover and we need to maintain that
and make sure that we plant more trees to have
the cooling effect on the city that we want.
We've seen the ornamental lake in Southampton
Common virtually dry up because of low rainfall
and high temperatures. And to be honest with
you, also probably needed a little bit more maintenance
that we had the money to be able to provide for
so that there was silt there. and the silting
causes problems. We had fish that were dying
in the lake and it got smaller and smaller. Unfortunately,
we did get some heavy rain shortly afterwards
and we were able to see the lake fill again.
But we will see that all over the place and that
will impact lots of things like loss of biodiversity,
certain creatures that are really quite valuable
in this city may well die. possibly become extinct.
We've got great crested newts on the common in
a special area. And it's a very, very precious,
rare species that lives there. And we've got
so many others as well. Going on to people, maybe
much more importantly, we're going to see people
who are struggling to be able to live in their
homes in a cool fashion. And in winter, they'll
be cold in order to they'll need to be able to
heat themselves and drafty. damp -ridden homes
and we need to do something about that. Climate
change has a real big effect and I think one
of your other questions that might be coming
up relates to impacts on the poorest in our communities
because these do affect the poorest people. The
poorest people find it most difficult to keep
cool and the most difficult to keep warm in winter.
The whole issue to do with that and the rising
fuel costs as well which we've seen with the
war in Ukraine is a massive issue. Climate change
is really going to affect us and that's before
we even mention rising sea levels and the impact
particularly in our city centre which is most
at threat but also on the borders of the river
Itchin. We really do need to work with government
to have sea defences that can combat that. And
that is you've touched on the heat waves and
of course the rising sea levels. Now there was
some work I think by Climate Central which looked
at the areas that would be underwater in years
to come. And there are, you're talking about
keeping our homes warm, keeping our homes cool,
but you're talking about the rising sea levels.
And this report from Climate Central talked about
whole areas of Southampton possibly being underwater.
I think it mentioned the football club, it mentioned
the chapel area of Southampton. And of course
those areas are home to many businesses, hotels,
et cetera. And that's a large part of your economy.
Do you see that as a, that must be part of your
crisis planning? It really is. I'm so concerned
about it. I took time out to catch. the Minister
for Rivers and Floods, Emma Hardy, to impress
upon her the need that we have to release funds
to support a plan which has already been sorted
out actually. It's called the River Itch and
Flood Alleviation Scheme and it's a big scheme.
It's got quite a big price tag on it as well
to move forward and defend the city. There was
a plan. I think the government was struggling
to work out where all that money was going to
be coming from. My mission in my conversation
with her was to discuss whether the priority
of it that it should be for the national government
to sort this out and I'm having follow -up discussions
with Emma and her team and also with the Environment
Agency. What's all wrapped up into this? It's
quite a complex picture but we know that businesses
want to come and make their headquarters in Southampton.
There's two things that are preventing them.
One of them is the shortage of electrical supply
for the whole city. We don't have a big enough
cable coming in from the National Grid to be
able to supply us with the energy needs of the
city going forward. And they're also worried
about the risk of flooding in those areas where
they may want to develop. And we've got a catch
-22 situation where... At the moment, the government's
view on it is that the river rich and flood alleviation
scheme can be largely supported through development
funds that were coming from developers. So a
developer would come in, build a building, and
then they get SIL money or Section 106 money.
It's money that comes from the developer to improve
the local environments and local infrastructure.
My feeling on it is that that's a very difficult
ask. That's what I've been busy on. working very
hard with our MPs on that as well. I think we
can get there and we may be able to get money
from various wealth funds and things to be able
to sort that out but the national agenda for
this government is growth and this city is poised
to have really solid green growth but we also
need that investment to defend our infrastructure.
And of course the other thing you need are targets
and we've got a lot of targets. We read a lot
and we hear a lot about 50 targets, 20, 30 targets,
20, 45 targets, depending on, you know, where
you are. Do you think our emissions reduction
targets are realistic? Because Southampton City
Council has set a target to achieve, I think
20, 35 for the city with a specific aim for the
council itself to be net zero by 2030. And they're
part of the city's green city charter and plan,
which is part of the council's corporate plan,
2022, 2030. How realistic are these? I'm a glass
half full kind of person and I'm fairly optimistic
but I've no doubt that these are difficult targets.
There are certain things in the pipeline which
I think can help. I mentioned about the electrical
supply. It's very difficult for us to decarbonize
without the electrical supply that we need, the
green clean electrical supply that we need for
the city. It's very difficult for people to buy
EV cars if they've got nowhere to charge them.
Similarly with the buses, the buses in Southampton
would like to be battery powered buses. The cruise
industry would really like to be able to plug
into shore power. At the moment we have two shore
power facilities, but if we were to switch them
both on at once, the lights would go off in the
city. We haven't got the electrical supply. I'm
working very hard at the moment with Scottish
and Southern who are our network operator to
provide all this and I've been every opportunity
I get. to meet with them and lean on them to
improve the pace of change. We're doing that.
I also had a meeting that was organized by Satya
Kaur MP and Alan Whitehead, who was the former
Shadow Secretary of State for Energy, I think.
We organized a kind of a coalition of the willing
and Scottish and Southern were there, along with
a whole load of other players to come together
to have a determination. to deliver what we need
in the next couple of years. We mentioned before
about geothermal energy, that sort of sitting
in the background at the moment, it's very old
and it's not really delivering an awful lot for
us, but it's been identified by scientists that
there is more energy there if we were to sort
that out and by going to market we could do another
borehole. down to about two kilometers, I think,
which could deliver steam, which will not only
heat an enlarged district network from geothermal
heating system, but also provide energy from
the turbine that could be turned with the steam
that's produced from that. We've already got
companies who have already decided where that
borehole will be and got plans in place to provide
that investment. And that's coming forward very
quickly. We're right at a pivotal point here.
If we can get the electricity in as soon as possible,
if we can get geothermal going as soon as possible,
I think our targets will be much more attainable.
There are an awful lot of other things we're
doing at the moment within the council, big plans
on waste reduction for the council itself by
2030. For example, we would want to decarbonize
our entire vehicle fleet, but we've got an awful
lot of smaller electric vehicles at the moment.
bin lorries that's called them at the moment
are quite old and outdated but we are replacing
those. The anticipation is to fuel them with
what's called HVO hydrogenated vegetable oil
which is a 90 % carbon reduction because if you
like this vegetable oil has already grown it's
taken CO2 out of the air through its growth and
then you're burning that to drive your vehicles
around. I think we'd go to battery operated vehicles
at a later date. It's not quite sorted in the
refuse fleet to move to all electric unless you're
in the very flat areas. So many other things.
I don't know if you know anything about the extended
producer responsibility that's been extended
now to the waste area, which means that producers
who produced cardboard packaging and a wide range
of packaging are ultimately responsible for the
cost of its disposal and the carbon that's on
that disposal. And that's just been introduced
into UK waste. Now, we mentioned people, obviously,
because we're a community, you know, and it is
about making lives better and making difference.
And we started the conversation right at the
beginning about making change, making a difference
to people's lives. Because, as we've said, the
people who are often impacted most by climate
are the ones who can least afford it. And there
are many statistics, I quote, which I will not
at the moment. But how can you ensure for your
residents in Southampton, let's start with Southampton,
to ensure that the low income and most vulnerable
residents are protected in all of this conversation?
Because it all sounds terribly exciting when
we talk about the innovation, the technologies
we're driving forward to get to these targets.
But we can't forget. are most vulnerable. The
biggest issue for low income families is housing.
An awful lot of people who are living in the
private rented sector and the reluctance of landlords
to do anything particularly sustainable with
their own properties to continue to take the
rent. off low -income families. Some of this
will really be at a national level, but we really
need to have changes to the way that the private
rented sector operates so that people are entitled
to live in clean and environmentally friendly
homes. Also, we've got programs going forward
now on our housing we haven't had for some time,
but we want to help to develop not just with
council houses, but also with other companies
working in partnership with housing associations.
But my ambition really would be that we have
the development of more zero energy homes, you
know, highly insulated homes that have got solar
panels on them and air heat pumps as a standard
and that really good practice is developed across
the whole sector. But we need legislation from
national government you know if somebody's renting
out a home in that state to somebody it just
shouldn't be allowed to happen. I think there
was some legislation that was planned maybe about
a year or so ago I recall that all rented properties
had to reach a minimum energy level of efficiency
and I think that's being pushed back now. But
we really, really do need that kind of thing.
I'd like to see every home that gets built has
solar panels on it. And we do encourage a lot
of solar purchases in Southampton. We have a
scheme called Solar Together. I think it's a
Hampshire -wide scheme where we're offering some
degree of sort of risk avoidance for people because
they know that if they're going to get a solar
scheme, they're going to get it in coordination
with their local authority. And then it's working
with Trades people that you can trust you're
not going to get ripped off. We need to do more
of that We need to have more and more of it across
the piece I think the thing about people who
are low incomes is and I see a lot of this with
where people will be cycling to work and using
public transports we need to work with the bus
companies to keep bus costs down and I think
there's things like if you are doing a regular
commute and if you have you know you can get
a monthly bus pass or even an annual bus pass
you can get it very very reduced fares compared
to you know paying it one off we currently have
it's part of a national scheme it's been around
for a while now but all night time fares are
one pound we just need to keep making sure that
public transport your bike and and your wheels
and your feet are really safe and easy way to
get around. And making it again, making that
all come together, that nighttime economy, allowing
people to get to work at minimal cost, do their
jobs, and of course, going back to those homes.
And we, again, at Salix, we do have, we have
played a role in the social housing decarbonisation
fund delivering that and home upgrade grant,
which is all about putting renewable solar PV
heat pumps into people's homes and making them
Places where people want to be that places are
safe that people can children can do their homework
you don't have to be out all day just to keep
warm and that's that's really important for the
whole well -being of everybody. So just for a
moment, let's talk about some of the positives,
because in this whole conversation, there's the
opportunity of jobs and green jobs, and of course,
all the technologies, because it kind of makes
sense. And I've spoken to one of my guests recently,
and he said, well, economics is on our side.
It kind of makes sense, doesn't it, to go green
in terms of jobs and economy? Absolutely. I think
I've actually seen this, but we're talking about
pension schemes. You know, an awful lot of authorities
are moving out of petrochemical shares and into
green technology shares, because actually they
provide a better return on investment. It's really
important. We're very well placed in Southampton
with the two universities that we've got. An
awful lot of work going on there. A lot of things
that are going on in the Porter area and National
Oceanography Centre. And we're really working
to develop some of these new green jobs. I did
hear a conference, somebody said, don't talk
about new green industries, just call them as
new industries, because sometimes you almost
toxify the name by referring them to as green.
These are just new ways of working, and they're
really exciting. There's lots of jobs that we
can develop out there. I have spoken to local
colleges about apprenticeships and training that
is available to move into the electric heat pumps
and solar panel installation. Maybe more importantly,
we need really good construction industry where
people are building with. new materials. I visited
these kind of homes of the future. They don't
build them with bricks and mortar, of course,
with the firing of bricks alone, the amount of
carbon that's embedded in the production of those
things. These things are very, very wide walls,
maybe that thick insulated materials that last
an awful long time, incredibly lightweight. So
when you put them on the back of a lorry, huge
walls, you get a whole house onto a single lorry
and it, you know, it doesn't use an awful lot
of electricity to drive around on it, you know,
these are incredibly efficient and we need to
be moving forward with more of those. I'm also
conscious, because I did used to chair planning,
one of the things that bothers me is the idea
that we have a building that's been up for maybe
20 years and we knock it down, we build another
one out of steel and concrete again. I would
like to see more changes where we can retrofit
existing buildings to be able to extend their
life even more rather than just knocking things
down and building with concrete over and over
again. We're very, very well placed in this part
of the country. I mean, we have got all the oil
terminal on our doorstep and I'd like to see
more work going on there to sort of change the
nature of the industries that take place there.
there's a whole new investment going into the
Freeport and the idea of Freeport is that when
that investment goes in part and parcel of that
and the funding that goes into it and the businesses
that are encouraged to operate there should be
green and environmentally friendly industries
and businesses that operate out of there. We've
got an awful lot of scope to be able to clean
up our dirty oil industry into something that's
cleaner. Working with hydrogen has a bit of a
bad name at the moment because It takes much
more energy to produce hydrogen, which is a clean
fuel, but it takes an awful lot more energy to
be able to produce it than just delivering straightforward
electricity down the wire to people. I was a
bit disappointed on the carbon capture and storage
schemes. The Solent Cluster came together a couple
of years ago to build capacity to develop more
and more carbon capture and storage. I think
the funding at that time went to the north of
England. both to the northwest and the northeast.
I think the infrastructure in, you know, deep
sea mines under the North Sea were sort of more
suitable for that sort of technology. But we
do have the capacity here to do likewise. And
we've also got, you know, the capacity for a
double tidal range. We could introduce tidal.
here as well as wind power. So definitely a place
to watch very carefully. So I'm hoping you'll
come again and talk to us post post post about
all of the work that has been achieved. One final
question because we really are running out of
time, John, but I would like to ask very briefly
is we spend a lot of time in these podcasts talking
about global issues, talking about how technologies
can have an impact, a positive impact, how people
are living and addressing climate change issues.
I'd like to throw the question back as well at
our guests and ask you, what sacrifices have
you made in your life to address climate change?
Have you made any sacrifices and would you say
you lead a sustainable lifestyle? I cycle an
awful lot. I always have done. I've certainly
moved away. I do own a car, but I think... It's
quite a small engine car. I've had it for quite
a long time. And at the moment, keeping it on
the road seems to be the greenest thing I can
do. My next car would be electric. But I've got
an e -bike, so I travel all over. I've cycled
several times to Brighton, for example. And I've
always been very interested in cycling, so I
also, I cycled down through Europe. I cycled
to Spain one year, not on electric bike, but
on a standard bike. My current bike is an e -bike
because I'm getting on a bit. I've given up an
awful lot of the flying I used to do. I went
about five years without getting on an airplane.
I've got solar on my roof. and the next time
I will be moving, getting my gas boiler out and
moving over to an electric heat pump as soon
as is possible. Those are all good steps. I'm
not saying that we can all cycle all around Europe.
But I think there's a really positive step. So
thank you very much to John and thank you very
much to John for joining me today and for providing
such insight. There can be no doubt that climate
change is the biggest challenge of our time.
Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions
to slow global warming. Today, we must act for
tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current
and future impacts of climate change. Today,
we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. Today, we work for
tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to
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and views at podcast at salixfinance .co .uk.
Thank you very much to John. Thank you. Excellent.
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