WEBVTT 00:00:06.870 --> 00:00:09.429 I'm Simon. I'm here to tell you that you're listening 00:00:09.429 --> 00:00:11.949 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from 00:00:11.949 --> 00:00:14.929 Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. 00:00:15.210 --> 00:00:17.469 Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our 00:00:17.469 --> 00:00:19.969 collective challenge. I'm Hannah Walker and I 00:00:19.969 --> 00:00:21.989 believe that the best way to communicate a message 00:00:21.989 --> 00:00:24.429 is by being passionate about what you are talking 00:00:24.429 --> 00:00:26.629 about. Through that passion, I believe that you 00:00:26.629 --> 00:00:29.230 take people with you and create action using 00:00:29.230 --> 00:00:32.530 your influence to make a change and make a difference. 00:00:33.090 --> 00:00:36.049 Our task today is to get all of us to net zero. 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:39.840 Today I have Celeste Hicks as my guest, so thank 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:43.219 you very much to Celeste. Celeste works at the 00:00:43.219 --> 00:00:46.520 Aviation Environment Federation. She joined in 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:50.420 2024 as policy manager. Her background is in 00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:53.039 campaigning and communications, having previously 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.140 worked as a journalist at BBC World Service for 00:00:56.140 --> 00:00:59.560 15 years and as a communications manager at Transport 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.520 and Environment. She has had roles at the UK 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:04.859 Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office and 00:01:04.859 --> 00:01:07.900 is also the author of three books, including 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:11.500 Expansion Rebellion. And Celeste is also volunteer 00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:14.680 campaigner on Safe Streets for Children and Clean 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:18.519 Air for Mums for Lungs at her children's school. 00:01:18.819 --> 00:01:21.840 Welcome to Celeste. Hello. Thank you for joining 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.439 us. So let's start by talking about your own 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:26.980 career path and how you've pursued that because 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:29.239 you're a former journalist, a campaigner, I think 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.379 you'll call yourself a campaigner, author, and 00:01:32.379 --> 00:01:36.079 you're also now helping shape policy. How did 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.879 you get to this place? The short answer is that 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:42.340 I suppose as I got older, I started to just think 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:44.859 a little bit more about what I consider to be 00:01:44.859 --> 00:01:47.959 the key skills that I have. And I started to 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.739 think more about the sort of impact of some of 00:01:50.739 --> 00:01:53.760 my career choices on the environment. And I also 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.480 had children. So I think, you know, when I was 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:58.400 working at BBC World Service, I was traveling 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.060 a lot. So obviously when the children came along, 00:02:01.219 --> 00:02:03.840 it got a bit difficult to travel as much as I 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.540 had done in the past. And then I started to feel 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:08.400 that if I wasn't able to be there in person, 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.360 I was feeling a little bit that I wasn't doing 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.000 my best in that job. And then obviously I kind 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:15.060 of started to think about the impact of all my 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:18.819 flying as well in terms of how that worked in 00:02:18.819 --> 00:02:21.620 the climate crisis. So yeah, I think it's been 00:02:21.620 --> 00:02:24.460 a long journey, mostly prompted by motherhood, 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:27.699 I would say, that's kind of brought me to think 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:29.560 more about, you know, what do I really want to 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:32.240 do? And yeah, I think in the end I kind of saw 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:36.500 that there was a great nexus between communications 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:39.080 and policy and that you can't really have one 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:40.680 without the other and I think sometimes people 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.599 see communications as being one thing and they 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.460 don't think the communicators don't necessarily 00:02:45.460 --> 00:02:48.020 engage on the policy and vice versa you have 00:02:48.020 --> 00:02:49.780 a lot of policy professionals who don't really 00:02:49.780 --> 00:02:51.460 think about how to explain what they're trying 00:02:51.460 --> 00:02:54.539 to do to to the wider public so I think yeah 00:02:54.539 --> 00:02:57.819 sort of just naturally evolved into this space. 00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:00.699 So writing very much a key to that development 00:03:00.699 --> 00:03:02.659 and how you've worked throughout the years and 00:03:02.659 --> 00:03:05.400 you mentioned travelling with the BBC World Service 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.479 because of course you mentioned flying, it was 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.300 an inconvenience but of course now you're thinking 00:03:10.300 --> 00:03:12.159 probably about flying in a very different way 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.500 as well regarding your work. So can you, which 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:18.000 moves us on to the Aviation Environment Federation, 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:20.460 can you tell us a little bit about that organisation 00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:23.099 because you're campaigning on aviation's impacts. 00:03:23.419 --> 00:03:26.039 for people in the environment. Can you tell us 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.259 a little bit about that noise and air pollution 00:03:28.259 --> 00:03:32.800 and what's going on in our skies? Yeah, so the 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:34.460 Aviation and Environment Federation is actually 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.039 celebrating its 50th anniversary very shortly 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:40.860 in September. So it started as an organization 00:03:40.860 --> 00:03:44.259 that was reflecting the concerns of communities 00:03:44.259 --> 00:03:47.090 mostly living around airports. who were bothered 00:03:47.090 --> 00:03:49.669 about air pollution and noise so sort of in the 00:03:49.669 --> 00:03:53.270 1970s and 1980s there was a big increase in flights 00:03:53.270 --> 00:03:55.949 and you know anybody that's lived under a flight 00:03:55.949 --> 00:03:59.580 path. will know how loud airplanes can be flying 00:03:59.580 --> 00:04:02.900 over people's houses. So it was a coalition of 00:04:02.900 --> 00:04:04.919 groups who came together to sort of reflect the 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.419 interests of those people. A lot of work that 00:04:07.419 --> 00:04:10.159 we do is on noise and air pollution and then 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:12.800 in recent years we've had to sort of take on 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.960 the question of climate change and emissions 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.829 from planes which are large and significant and 00:04:19.829 --> 00:04:21.870 often get overlooked by people in the climate 00:04:21.870 --> 00:04:24.850 change debate. And we also work on all kinds 00:04:24.850 --> 00:04:26.790 of issues to do with environment. So at the moment, 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:30.230 even today, we've been talking about PFAs, which 00:04:30.230 --> 00:04:33.009 were used in firefighting foam for a long time. 00:04:33.050 --> 00:04:35.970 And there's a big problem with PFAs around airports. 00:04:36.389 --> 00:04:40.069 And we also look at biodiversity impacts from 00:04:40.069 --> 00:04:42.730 airports as well. So really, yeah, we do what 00:04:42.730 --> 00:04:44.589 we say on the tin, anything to do with aviation 00:04:44.589 --> 00:04:46.449 and environment. Can you tell us a little bit 00:04:46.449 --> 00:04:49.069 about what the impact your policies are having 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:53.009 at that national level and global, even global 00:04:53.009 --> 00:04:57.269 level? Yeah, so I think AEF has always situated 00:04:57.269 --> 00:05:00.750 itself as trying to be a kind of well -informed 00:05:00.750 --> 00:05:05.329 NGO voice. go for anything dramatic protests 00:05:05.329 --> 00:05:06.990 or anything like that. But what we try to do 00:05:06.990 --> 00:05:09.370 is make sure that our arguments are backed up 00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:11.550 with really solid research. And so obviously 00:05:11.550 --> 00:05:14.189 we've been going for 50 years. So we do have 00:05:14.189 --> 00:05:17.230 a vast body of research that we've done over 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:20.050 the years. And our website is a treasure trove 00:05:20.050 --> 00:05:22.949 of information if people are interested. So I 00:05:22.949 --> 00:05:26.250 think that gives us a really important role to 00:05:26.250 --> 00:05:29.689 play because we are trusted by a number of organizations 00:05:29.689 --> 00:05:32.529 and we do get asked a lot to be involved in things. 00:05:33.189 --> 00:05:35.509 So we have been involved in quite a lot of government 00:05:35.509 --> 00:05:39.589 meetings at the DFT and the Civil Aviation Authority 00:05:39.589 --> 00:05:42.750 and we were recently asked to call to give evidence 00:05:42.750 --> 00:05:45.879 at the Environmental Audit Committee. and several 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.639 of our team members are sitting currently on 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:50.920 the government's Jet Zero Council which is looking 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.819 at different ways to decarbonize aviation. So 00:05:53.819 --> 00:05:56.420 I think we really have an impact when it comes 00:05:56.420 --> 00:05:59.439 to considered policy that really looks into the 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.339 detail and trying to get across the complexity 00:06:01.339 --> 00:06:03.379 of these things and the competing interests. 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.500 and you mentioned about the global level so AEF 00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:08.839 was one of the founder members of the international 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.819 coalition on sustainable aviation which is a 00:06:11.819 --> 00:06:15.040 group of NGOs which have observer status at the 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.540 IKO so that's the the UN body for aviation at 00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:22.220 their annual many meetings across the year and 00:06:22.220 --> 00:06:25.000 there's an environmental part to that called 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.699 CAPE and we always go to those meetings and represent 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:32.439 the collective views of NGO communities so you 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:34.660 know that can be quite slow process because it's 00:06:34.660 --> 00:06:37.560 a UN body so obviously everybody in all the countries 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.139 of the world get to have their view when these 00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:43.000 meetings take place but you know the detail is 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.660 really where things are crucial there and so 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:48.620 we've been following that for a long time. You 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:51.160 mentioned there's a lot of references there to 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.879 various organizations and also there are a lot 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:56.819 of targets we're facing. Now, I've got one figure 00:06:56.819 --> 00:06:59.699 here, for example. In April 2021, the government 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:02.379 announced it will include the UK's share of international 00:07:02.379 --> 00:07:05.040 and shipping emissions in its carbon budgets 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.060 and its binding target to achieve net zero by 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:09.939 2050. This means that the entire UK aviation 00:07:09.939 --> 00:07:12.620 sector will be part of the commitment to reduce 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:16.600 economy -wide emissions by 78 % below 1990 levels 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:21.459 by 2035. What do you think when you think of 00:07:21.459 --> 00:07:25.319 the targets? Are we completely off target. It's 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:29.199 interesting you should mention the target to 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.019 include international aviation and shipping because 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:33.720 actually that was something that AEF campaigned 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.379 quite heavily for and we were very pleased when 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:38.579 the government committed to it because previously 00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.180 what happened was because aviation is between 00:07:41.180 --> 00:07:43.600 countries there was a bit of disagreement. in 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:45.939 terms of who owns the emissions so should it 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:47.839 be the country where the flight's leaving from 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.139 or the nationality of the passenger and nobody 00:07:51.139 --> 00:07:53.579 really addressed that at the UN system so for 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:56.139 a long time they were left out. However, even 00:07:56.139 --> 00:07:58.779 though the government committed in 2021 to include 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:02.459 those, we still haven't seen the statutory instrument 00:08:02.459 --> 00:08:04.660 that's necessary. So the secondary legislation 00:08:04.660 --> 00:08:06.560 needs to be laid before parliament to make sure 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:09.399 that actually happens. And so that's kind of 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:11.100 another thing that we're campaigning on at the 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:13.420 moment. And to go back to your question about 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:16.579 target, I mean, the short answer is it looks 00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:20.120 like we are. not making very much progress in 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:23.259 aviation towards those targets. So, for example, 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:26.319 if we go back to the government's Jet Zero strategy, 00:08:26.500 --> 00:08:29.639 which was launched in 2021. Now, of course, sorry, 00:08:29.740 --> 00:08:32.539 2022. Now, of course, we know that the pandemics 00:08:32.539 --> 00:08:34.360 happened since then, but a lot of the analysis 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.980 has been done on the trends. So not including 00:08:36.980 --> 00:08:40.259 the impact of the pandemic. But it was when this 00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:43.519 was launched in 2022, the government then the 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.700 previous government said we would really like 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:49.639 2019 to be the highest. level of aviation emissions, 00:08:49.659 --> 00:08:51.860 we would like this to be remembered as the year 00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:55.179 of peak aviation emissions. And we know that 00:08:55.179 --> 00:08:58.240 the provisional figures for 2024 are out now. 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:01.059 We know that their rivers are slightly higher 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:03.100 than they were, at least for international aviation 00:09:03.100 --> 00:09:06.179 emissions in 2024. And we know that passenger 00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:09.419 numbers are continuing to go up in 2025. So, 00:09:09.419 --> 00:09:12.360 you know, we don't think it's early days to be 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.399 able to make a proper analysis of that. But it 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:16.019 looks like things are not going in the right 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:19.070 direction. So it's quite difficult to imagine 00:09:19.070 --> 00:09:21.610 that there will be huge progress in the next 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:24.330 three to four years to hit those 2030 targets 00:09:24.330 --> 00:09:27.649 especially if airport expansions go ahead and 00:09:27.649 --> 00:09:30.370 you know obviously that means more flights. We 00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:32.909 try not to sort of focus on too many of the individual 00:09:32.909 --> 00:09:34.809 targets and look at the sort of bigger picture 00:09:34.809 --> 00:09:39.399 of the trajectory. and we can say with confidence 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.460 that at the moment the 2024 provisional figures 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:44.480 are giving us the impression that the emissions 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.059 are not going down at all from aviation. So we 00:09:47.059 --> 00:09:49.039 know we're flying all over the place, we only 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:50.659 have to look up in our skies and as you say you 00:09:50.659 --> 00:09:52.879 don't even need to live directly under a flight 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.039 path to know that there's a lot of movement going 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.299 on up there in the big airports as well as obviously 00:09:58.299 --> 00:10:01.519 a lot of the smaller airfields. So you've got 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.259 some clear asks at the Aviation Environment Federation 00:10:05.259 --> 00:10:08.179 around net zero emissions, including financial 00:10:08.179 --> 00:10:10.659 measures to limit flying around, such as air 00:10:10.659 --> 00:10:12.879 miles tax. It'd be nice to talk about some of 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.799 that and how that would impact all of us, because 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:17.879 there is also some basics in there. Just don't 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:22.039 fly as much, getting those airport staff possibly 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:24.879 to transition to green jobs. What's your response 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.360 in terms of getting people to look at alternatives? 00:10:28.669 --> 00:10:31.389 So the idea is that if you look at who actually 00:10:31.389 --> 00:10:33.649 flies in the UK, the people who fly multiple 00:10:33.649 --> 00:10:36.809 times a year are predominantly richer people 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:39.529 with more disposable income and we know that 00:10:39.529 --> 00:10:41.909 a huge chunk of the flights that depart from 00:10:41.909 --> 00:10:45.169 the UK are for leisure purposes and the airports 00:10:45.169 --> 00:10:47.610 are kind of quite open about that, that they 00:10:47.610 --> 00:10:49.950 want to open more leisure destinations. So you 00:10:49.950 --> 00:10:52.049 know what we try to do is raise awareness of 00:10:52.049 --> 00:10:54.990 the fact that a lot of that growth in airports 00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:57.370 and growth in passenger numbers is being taken 00:10:57.370 --> 00:11:00.639 by richer people and if you look at the impact 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.220 of flying compared to other activities that people 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:05.899 do the impact of flying is is huge it's it's 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:08.100 one of the most climate impactful things you 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:10.500 can do you know in a negative way not in a good 00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:13.179 way so i think what we want to make sure people 00:11:13.179 --> 00:11:16.019 understand is that you know no one's saying don't 00:11:16.019 --> 00:11:18.539 ever fly again but we're just sort of trying 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:21.580 to raise this question of like is the never -ending 00:11:21.580 --> 00:11:24.450 growth in the number of flights actually serving 00:11:24.450 --> 00:11:27.250 anybody other than rich leisure passengers who 00:11:27.250 --> 00:11:29.169 want to go on more and more holidays and do we 00:11:29.169 --> 00:11:31.889 think that that's a social good and if it's a 00:11:31.889 --> 00:11:34.230 social good is it worth the carbon cost that 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:36.690 will eventually be placed on all of us because 00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:38.769 we will have to cover the costs of that in the 00:11:38.769 --> 00:11:41.610 future. What you were mentioning about the what 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:44.710 we call a frequent flyer levy is the idea that 00:11:44.710 --> 00:11:46.950 the more that people fly the more they pay so 00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:50.029 it's kind of like a tax on people who fly. We 00:11:50.029 --> 00:11:51.929 haven't actually developed this research ourselves 00:11:51.929 --> 00:11:55.649 but our partners possible and the New Economics 00:11:55.649 --> 00:11:57.750 Foundation have developed this research quite 00:11:57.750 --> 00:11:59.809 a lot and they propose anybody who flies more 00:11:59.809 --> 00:12:03.539 than six times a year. as ultra frequent flyers 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:06.460 and the idea is that they pay more and obviously 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:08.059 we've seen some progress from the government 00:12:08.059 --> 00:12:11.679 with the increase in air passenger duty on private 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:14.799 jets which came in the Chancellor's autumn statement 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:18.240 and so we want more of that we want more of taxing 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.179 the private jets we want more of taxing first 00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:23.080 -class passengers and business passengers because 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.070 they are more polluting because obviously they 00:12:26.070 --> 00:12:27.970 take up more space than an economy passenger, 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:30.750 so the admissions per passenger in first class 00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:34.190 and business class are more. Just to put that 00:12:34.190 --> 00:12:38.350 in context, it's the UK passenger service survey. 00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:42.629 that shows that only about 50 % of the UK population 00:12:42.629 --> 00:12:45.950 fly at all in any given year. So you know 50 00:12:45.950 --> 00:12:48.750 % of people don't fly and yet the pollution is 00:12:48.750 --> 00:12:51.690 being done by a tiny proportion of wealthy people. 00:12:52.110 --> 00:12:54.590 We're just really keen to get that across and 00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:56.610 make people understand that you know those costs 00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:58.909 will be borne by everybody and is that fair? 00:12:59.610 --> 00:13:01.210 Technology, let's talk about technology for a 00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:03.909 moment because do you think that's part of problem 00:13:03.909 --> 00:13:06.950 or do you think it's part of the solution? Because 00:13:06.950 --> 00:13:10.049 you're asking and wanting to see the aviation 00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:13.429 industry invest in more research and development 00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:18.769 of net zero energy technologies available. How 00:13:18.769 --> 00:13:20.610 do you feel about that at the moment, the technologies 00:13:20.610 --> 00:13:23.389 and how they can be used to help us turn things 00:13:23.389 --> 00:13:26.740 around? Zero emissions flight. I'm sure will 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:28.759 be possible in the future, but right now it's 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:30.940 a huge challenge just because of the weight of 00:13:30.940 --> 00:13:33.679 the batteries if you're looking at electric flight 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.240 and the relative power that you need to take 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:39.720 for a plane to take off. It's not like a car 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.639 in terms of how much propulsion you need. So 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:46.039 we're very behind as a global, you know, the 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:49.000 global approach to zero emissions flight is very 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:51.620 behind. we think that probably at some point 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:53.720 that those technological challenges will be solved 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.159 but they're certainly not being solved now and 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.159 the big aircraft manufacturers which really is 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.620 just Airbus and Boeing are not putting the research 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:04.639 and development money into these technologies 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.879 at all. Airbus recently announced that its hydrogen 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.659 plane technology program was being delayed by 00:14:11.659 --> 00:14:12.960 several years so you know they've been saying 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:14.480 for a while that they'll have a hydrogen plane 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.519 by 2035 but they've now delayed that. The other 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:21.480 option you have is to decarbonize the fuels. 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.019 So obviously I think we've all learnt some lessons 00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:27.299 about biofuels in the past and how they can indirectly 00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:30.299 cause land use changes which actually can paradoxically 00:14:30.299 --> 00:14:32.740 increase emissions if you're chopping down virgin 00:14:32.740 --> 00:14:35.120 rainforest to plant palm oil to put into cars 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.080 and then burn. So the UK SAF mandate, the Sustainable 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.179 Aviation Fuel Mandate, came out at the beginning 00:14:41.179 --> 00:14:44.639 of this year and the idea is to use waste -based 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:49.580 feedstocks for producing aviation That's great 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:51.960 and we're supportive of that and we want to see 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.720 more of it. Unfortunately, it's not kind of at 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.200 the moment things are not going quite as quickly 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.860 as they need to. We need to scale from a tiny, 00:14:58.899 --> 00:15:00.879 tiny proportion of sustainable aviation fuel 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:04.840 available now to meet our 2030 and 2040 and ultimately 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.039 2050 targets. And even the aviation industry 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:11.259 knows that sustainable aviation fuel is not the 00:15:11.259 --> 00:15:13.480 answer, the full answer. There will be other 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.960 things will be needed. including things like 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:19.059 greenhouse gas removals, the zero emissions technology 00:15:19.059 --> 00:15:21.720 that I told you about. So these are the reasons 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.259 why we find it difficult to understand why you 00:15:24.259 --> 00:15:26.679 would take the risk of increasing airport capacity 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.289 and inducing more demand by allowing airports 00:15:30.289 --> 00:15:33.129 to expand at a time where really the decarbonisation 00:15:33.129 --> 00:15:36.210 technologies are still in their infancy and they're 00:15:36.210 --> 00:15:38.250 not scaling as fast as we need them to. So we're 00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:40.629 not going fast enough and the technologies could 00:15:40.629 --> 00:15:42.429 be there but there needs to be a real kind of 00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:45.409 commitment and energy about driving those forward. 00:15:46.250 --> 00:15:50.710 So I'm interested in your work with your members 00:15:50.710 --> 00:15:53.669 and those kind of experiences those people have 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:55.769 because you work with the Parliamentary Transport 00:15:55.769 --> 00:15:58.470 Committee, Environmental Audit Committee. and 00:15:58.470 --> 00:16:00.870 a number of organizations, the Airport Council, 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:03.330 International Airport, carbon accreditation schemes, 00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:06.330 etc. But we're really interested, I'm interested 00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:09.610 to know about your members' experiences of, we're 00:16:09.610 --> 00:16:11.789 looking to the future, but what is it like? What 00:16:11.789 --> 00:16:14.750 do they tell you about the noise and the emissions 00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:17.649 in terms of living under that flight path? What 00:16:17.649 --> 00:16:20.090 do people tell you? What do they come to you? 00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:23.129 What kind of stories do people tell you about 00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:26.929 what it's like? So I think our members are one 00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:29.389 of the really sort of most important factors 00:16:29.389 --> 00:16:32.529 of AEF because we do represent communities and 00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:35.370 you know other NGOs don't necessarily have that 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:38.909 community voice that we employ when we go to 00:16:38.909 --> 00:16:40.929 speak to the government and I think it opens 00:16:40.929 --> 00:16:43.409 doors for us because we do represent people and 00:16:43.409 --> 00:16:45.549 we can speak on behalf of people and communities 00:16:45.549 --> 00:16:48.509 and I think that gives us extra credibility when 00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:50.730 we're presenting our ideas to the government. 00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:54.759 I mean the stories we most often hear are I mean 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.159 you know obviously the biggest problem is night 00:16:57.159 --> 00:16:59.679 flight noise for people that live near airports 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:02.840 so people who have been woken up by planes coming 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.519 in very late at night early in the morning and 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.079 even during the night. There are rules around 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.660 night flights in the UK but there are many thousands 00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:13.039 of sort of dispensations they're called every 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.460 year where planes are delayed and therefore they 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:19.160 have to come in in the middle of the night. and 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:21.140 you know that also goes to during the day as 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:23.099 well if people are sitting in their gardens trying 00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:24.980 to enjoy the gardens and enjoy peace and quiet 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:28.119 they've got planes flying over it can be very 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:30.740 triggering for a number of people who sort of 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:33.059 feel you know who are bothered by noise and just 00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:36.140 find that their sort of personal space and privacy 00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.759 has been invaded by that. There's a huge problem 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:41.279 with air pollution around airports and some of 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.240 it's to do with traffic. so people driving to 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.740 the airports and road congestion around airports 00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:49.940 but a lot of it is also to do with what's coming 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:51.839 out of the back of the planes as they come over 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.579 communities and land and dropping ultrafine particles 00:17:55.579 --> 00:18:00.680 and other things such as nitrogen dioxide, sulphurs 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.640 dropping on communities as they fly over. There's 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.900 also all kinds of impacts to do with for example 00:18:05.900 --> 00:18:08.759 children's learning, children that live in schools 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.539 near big airports. kind of can't concentrate 00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:14.799 because of the noise and the interruptions and 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.940 there's been a lot of research recently about 00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:20.200 the impact on people's cardiovascular health 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:23.259 and some quite clear evidence that there's a 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:25.380 direct link between people who live on the flight 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:28.299 paths and increase cardiovascular problems. So 00:18:28.299 --> 00:18:31.539 you know all the people that contact us are living 00:18:31.539 --> 00:18:34.619 this in one way or another. and we got contacted 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:36.960 a lot by people where there are threats of airport 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.740 expansion so people realize that their house 00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:41.799 which doesn't have any aircraft noise currently 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:43.880 may well be affected by aircraft noise in the 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.000 future and they don't know where to go they don't 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.740 know what help they can get. We try to help them. 00:18:48.940 --> 00:18:51.079 We also get contacted a lot by what's known as 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.440 general aviation so this is kind of like private 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.519 pilots and small aerodromes where there's people 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.740 flying their own planes and helicopters and private 00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:01.920 jets for some of them airports like Farnborough. 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.680 And there really isn't really much regulation 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.220 around those at all. The flight paths around 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:09.400 those can change quite suddenly. So people can 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.920 suddenly find themselves bothered by multiple 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.339 planes and small, loud aircraft going over at 00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:18.240 lower altitudes. And we try to reflect all of 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.880 those concerns when we get the opportunity to 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.380 meet with the CAA and the Department for Transport. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:28.920 Do you feel optimistic or do you feel that you've 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.000 still got a huge amount of work to do? or never 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.660 -ending actually? I mean it is never -ending 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:38.980 and I think what's interesting about it is that 00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:41.519 what you do in aviation touches on all the other 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.220 sectors and I think this is kind of one of the 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:46.920 things that we spend a lot of time doing is just 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.500 looking for example if you want to create what's 00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:52.519 known as e -fuels which are basically synthetic 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.319 fuels using captured carbon and green hydrogen 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:01.559 which is produced using renewable sources. often 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.660 touted as one of the best solutions for decarbonizing 00:20:04.660 --> 00:20:07.299 aviation but you know our research has led us 00:20:07.299 --> 00:20:09.680 to understand that that means you're taking away 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.119 renewable electricity from the grid which is 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.720 also needed to decarbonize people's homes and 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.759 to decarbonize transport so all of the solutions 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.059 that you look at for aviation there's already 00:20:20.059 --> 00:20:23.730 kind of other economy -wide impacts. And so, 00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:26.329 you know, I think that's the bit that keeps us 00:20:26.329 --> 00:20:29.710 busy is trying to pull those elements together. 00:20:30.329 --> 00:20:32.309 I think part of the reason for that is just sort 00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:34.710 of historically aviation is just kind of, you 00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:37.150 know, I'm sorry to use this phrase, but under 00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:39.799 the radar. You know, it's been quite a small 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:41.980 proportion of global emissions up until quite 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:45.619 recently. You know, when Kyoto Protocol was formed 00:20:45.619 --> 00:20:49.200 in 1990, it was a tiny proportion of international 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.200 emissions. So no one was really worried about 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.759 aviation. And obviously, there's been enormous 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.039 growth in global aviation since then. But for 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.200 the aviation industry, they like to keep it like 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.000 that. They like to say, well, we're not that 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.500 big a problem. But the problem we're facing now 00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:05.339 is that while other industries are decarbonizing, 00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:09.329 we've made massive strides in the The grid intensity 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:13.190 of carbon we're doing really well on EVs. Aviation 00:21:13.190 --> 00:21:16.230 is really not doing anything and I think that 00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:18.549 it's frustrating right now because every way 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:20.970 we look at it you can see the impact of aviation. 00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:23.109 In fact the climate change committee said in 00:21:23.109 --> 00:21:26.609 the report to parliament recently on the the 00:21:26.609 --> 00:21:29.849 progress towards net zero that if aviation doesn't 00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:31.720 hurry up and get on with it, it's going to become 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:34.259 the biggest emitting sector in the UK and the 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:38.420 whole UK economy by 2014. And it's already emitting 00:21:38.420 --> 00:21:41.759 more than the power sector is. Big questions 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.500 will be asked about that and need to be asked 00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:46.740 about that. So I feel optimistic in the sense 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:49.380 that, you know, what I enjoy about this job is 00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:51.680 the intellectual challenge of it because it's 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.839 fiendishly complicated and things fit in and 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.750 all kinds of technological advances and so. legislative 00:21:57.750 --> 00:22:00.029 and planning bills and all of this stuff it all 00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:02.369 comes together but actually however you look 00:22:02.369 --> 00:22:04.789 at it like there's a big problem with aviation 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.730 and people are just hoping it goes away and it's 00:22:07.730 --> 00:22:10.619 not going to. So I think, yeah, I think if you 00:22:10.619 --> 00:22:12.619 think maybe 10 years down the road, I think we 00:22:12.619 --> 00:22:15.640 will see a lot more progress because it is already 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.160 becoming obvious that aviation is way behind 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.539 what it needs to be. It clearly has to be addressed 00:22:20.539 --> 00:22:22.640 because like you, I see a lot, I see directly 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:24.740 a lot of the passion that goes in from people 00:22:24.740 --> 00:22:27.539 across the country addressing all of those buildings, 00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:32.029 houses, homes, et cetera, to decarbonize. get 00:22:32.029 --> 00:22:33.609 rid of, as I say, get rid of those old fossil 00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:36.569 fuels, look at renewables, et cetera. And there 00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:38.970 is a little bit of puzzle still about what's 00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:42.049 going on up in the skies. And I don't think that 00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:45.109 people will forget about it because your work 00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:47.390 at the Aviation Environment Federation seems 00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:50.289 to be making a difference. And it's good to see 00:22:50.289 --> 00:22:53.410 that you've got a voice there. And thank you 00:22:53.410 --> 00:22:55.819 very much. to Celeste for being a guest today 00:22:55.819 --> 00:22:59.000 and talking about all things aviation. It's highly 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:02.640 complex and for sure there's still huge amounts 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.640 of challenges and I know we haven't got, we're 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.039 on a race so time is really not on our side in 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.390 terms of climate change. Thank you to Celeste 00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:16.029 Hicks for joining us today from the Aviation 00:23:16.029 --> 00:23:18.349 Environment Federation. There can be no doubt 00:23:18.349 --> 00:23:20.150 that climate change is the biggest challenge 00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:22.670 of our time. Today we must reduce greenhouse 00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:25.289 gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we 00:23:25.289 --> 00:23:27.849 must act for tomorrow adjusting our lifestyles 00:23:27.849 --> 00:23:30.190 to current and future impacts of climate change. 00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:33.309 Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver 00:23:33.309 --> 00:23:36.109 on our climate commitments. Today we work for 00:23:36.109 --> 00:23:38.569 tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to 00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:41.529 our podcast channels and please do email your 00:23:41.529 --> 00:23:45.259 views and suggestions to podcast at salixfinance 00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:49.339 .co .uk. We'd love to know what you think. Thank 00:23:49.339 --> 00:23:52.380 you once again to Celeste for joining us today. 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.680 Thank you Celeste. Thank you. I'm Zoe Hurst and 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.279 I'm here to tell you that you've been listening 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:00.019 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from 00:24:00.019 --> 00:24:03.019 Salix. For more information about our work and 00:24:03.019 --> 00:24:05.839 to find more content, please visit salixfinance 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.339 .co .uk forward slash podcasts.