This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate
Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker
and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Through that passion, I believe
you take people with you and create action using
your influence to make change and make a difference.
Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
My guest today is Morten Djoerdal who is a recognised
expert on heat networks. He knows everything
there is to know about the development and implementation
of district heating in Denmark. He spends much
of his time working in the UK explaining the
value of heat networks and providing insight
into their operations. He will talk to us today
about the part heat networks have to play in
our society, our cities and our communities.
Morton works for DBDH, which is a Danish member
organisation with members from the entire Danish
district heating sector. Its vision is to create
a better world that benefits from sustainable
district energy. Morton has also served as head
of secretariat at District Energy Partnership,
a Danish district energy lobby organization.
District Energy Partnership works to improve
framework conditions for district heating, thereby
enhancing Europe's rollout. His career began
in the district heating industry in Eastern Europe
and Russia more than 20 years ago. And since
then, he has worked as a business development
director in a large organizations. So welcome.
To Morten, good to see you. Thank you, Hannah,
and thank you for inviting me. That was some
nice words. Thank you. Okay, let's get started.
I'd like to start by talking a little bit about
your career and your education and how you started
this journey and what your background is. Obviously,
to most people in this industry, I'm not an engineer.
I'm actually from the, I'm educated at the business
school, so I'm kind of an MBA. a Danish version
of the MBA and my very first job was in district
heating where I did training courses. My very
first real job was in district heating. We did
training courses for Russian and Eastern European
district heating experts because they have and
especially had a very different approach to this.
But in reality, my very first job in district
heating was when I was around 15 years old because
my father asked me to dig the trench from the
street so they could lay pipe into our house.
I made a fortune, I thought. Well, I felt like
I made a fortune. So that's your background.
So it's business, but obviously there's a little
bit of digging work going on. But you are now
working heavily in district because district
heating is... I'd like to know exactly what it
is because it isn't new, is it? Here over in
the UK, the Sheffield District Heating Supply
Company established a heat network back in the
1870s. Pimlico District Heating undertaking opened
in the 1950s. So it's not new. Can you explain
exactly what they are and how they work? In a
way, it started out being just a very large boiler
system. Everybody in the UK have a gas boiler
or nearly everybody anyway. and then they have
a boiler and then they pump heat around to the
radiators. Now imagine you enlarge that system
tremendously and you put very large boilers or
waste incineration plants or other really huge
heat sources out in the city or outside the city
and then you just pump hot water in highly isolated
pipes that is in the street to each and everybody's
building and home. and then we use that hot water
to heat. So the interior in your home is exactly
the same. The heat just comes from somewhere
else through big pipes and these systems can
be really, really big. In Copenhagen from north
to south we have like 70 kilometers now in a
connected system and east west it's around 50
kilometers and in Copenhagen they provide heat
to more than a million people. far more than
a million actually when I think about it. So
it's a centralized system. Okay, so I want to
go back to Copenhagen and I want to talk also
about our awareness of heat networks. But at
Salix, we work very much with energy efficiency
measures and we're looking all the time at decarbonization
and getting rid of those old fossil fuels. So
on the heat networks front, are you saying these
are good for the planet? In my opinion, yes,
they're really good for the planet. That's the
shortest possible answer. The difference between
you probably have a gas boiler where you live.
The difference is if you want to change the heat
source in a district heating system from gas
or oil or coal in good old days to something
that is really renewable, then you only have
to do it one place. Instead of going out to millions
and millions of homes and changing their boiler
or their heat source there, we can change centralized
and we can change in a way where we make it cheap
for everybody. So the question was is it climate
friendly? Yes it is. In Denmark we are around
75 % carbon neutral in our district heating and
that number is growing every day because we are
pushing out all the fossil sources more and more
and introducing new renewable sources. Electric
boilers running on solar power and wind power,
heat pumps, biomass, surplus heat. There are
so many heat sources that are otherwise wasted
or that are really renewable that we can now
put into our systems. We think we will reach
close to 100 % in 5 -10 years, 100 % renewable
heat. That is... Good for the climate. That's
good for the world. And that is that is certainly
good for our planet. Exactly You mentioned the
word cheap because we've all got our eye haven't
we on the budgets and the heat networks are not
cheap Are they they're not initially cheap? No,
but they're affordable. Yes, they are the cheapest
solution we have in the in the towns and cities
Not in the urban areas, not in the rural areas.
There we should do definitely individual heat
pumps. That's the absolute best solution out
there. But in urban areas, and that's from small
villages of maybe, I don't know, 500 buildings
and up, maybe even smaller, there it is the cheapest
alternative when you look at the overall total
cost of ownership. The problem, and the reason
why you say it's not cheap, is probably because
you compare to natural gas. And that is a hard
one to compete against because that is heavily
subsidized over the years. We already have the
gas network in place. But let's also be fair
and say, I think it's 2045. In the UK, you have
agreed that we should not have fossil heat in
our heating systems. And that excludes natural
gas. So you can't continue comparing to something
you don't want to use in the future. You need
to compare to real alternatives. And it may cost
a tad more, but it's cheaper than the alternative.
And cheaper than that alternative I call affordable.
I will also say that in that calculation, we
do not include future costs for the climate,
for instance. That is not a part of it. We do
not include political costs like local jobs or
local supply chain or import independence, making
us less dependent on resources from states we're
maybe not too happy about. That's also a value.
And that is not included in my Affordable. Exactly.
So you're arguing that that is something we don't
factor in, the result of climate crisis and the
kinds of issues that we see on our news. Just
come back to Copenhagen because you've talked
about Denmark, you've talked about Copenhagen,
and indeed Copenhagen is one of the world's most
extensive district heating networks, and I think
it supplies about 99 % of the city. Why in the
UK, when you compare us to somewhere like Copenhagen,
Why are we so behind, if you like? I think we
have to go back a very long time. The reason
why we have a lot of district heating, twofold.
In the energy crisis in the 70s, at that time
we already had some district heating and it was
fairly successful and fairly okay. So we knew
what it was. And when we had the energy crisis
in the 70s, we did not have a lot of natural
gas. we could use. It's my personal personal
guess and opinion that if we have had all the
gas you knew you had in the UK, we would probably
have had the same amount of gas heating as you
have today. So we were lucky. We felt unlucky
at that time, but we were lucky. So from the
70s onwards, especially after the first heat
law in Denmark in 1709, we went down two routes.
We made sure that our buildings were more and
more and more energy efficient. We have some
of the highest energy efficient standards for
buildings in Denmark. And at the same time, we
dedicated different areas either to have district
heating or to use natural gas. So we never rolled
out a double system. You didn't do that either
in the UK. You just only rolled out natural gas
networks. but we had that choice between the
two different systems and when you do not have
to invest in more than one as you did then it
becomes fairly inexpensive and it's something
we give to everybody so why are we ahead of you
in the numbers is because we felt unlucky in
the 70s what i see when i look at the uk today
i see Enormous commitment from many local authorities,
both in Scotland and in England, where I work
a lot on this carbon agenda. They're really,
really searching for ways to be able to deliver
an affordable, fairly priced green heat solution
to the citizens. And when you look at Scottish
government and DESSNAS, the English Energy Agency,
I think they do a lot of good things. I, of course,
would love them to do much more and much faster,
but that's my job also. Remember that. In terms
of actually warming our homes and our buildings,
public buildings, et cetera, which country do
you think is best at it today? I'm paid to say
Denmark. Yes. I think we do it quite well in
Denmark. We have affordable prices in general
in Denmark. The vast majority of buildings in
Denmark are heated by district heating, two -thirds
of them are. They are fairly renewable and we
are moving fast forward on the renewable part
of it. We will reach 100%. We also see that,
if you look at it a bit broader perspective,
the Danish district heating sector does a lot
of good for the electricity grid. We have a lot
of wind and solar in our electricity grid. Today,
the sun is shining and it's fairly windy. I haven't
checked electricity prices, but they are low
today. I must assume they are low because we
have a lot of renewable electricity. And here
we have the district heating world that can take
up all that inexpensive, nearly surplus electricity
and use that. On the other hand, we can decide
not to use electricity in the district heating
world when the prices are high. So we can move
away when there's a need for electricity in society
and when there's too much we can step in because
we can store heat a lot better. So we have managed
to put together a system. I'm not in any way
saying it's perfect, it's not, but it's rather
good. we are looking into the overall cost of
society every time we make decisions. So we're
also fairly sure we do good for Denmark. So it
is really that looking at all of those sources,
because we do, through our work here at Salix,
we do look at solar, and obviously all the time
there's hydro in the background, geothermal,
biomass, and of course ocean energy, all of that.
So why are we so obsessed with Am I allowed to
say this in this country with heat pumps? What's
your view on heat pumps? My view on heat sources
is the more you have the merrier. That's my first
point of view because then sometimes electricity
prices are low or biomass prices are high or
something and then in a large system you can
switch around. That is very important to keep
prices down. You are very and what my view on
heat pump is that they are They are very, very
important for the future of district heating.
We are seeing a lot of heat pumps being introduced
on any source you can imagine. Not warm enough
surplus heat from industry, from air, from sewage,
from data centers, from all the sources you can
manage. A heat pump is pretty neutral when it
comes to the heat source that it uses. My view
also is that no matter how much I like them,
there are also other sources out there. Industrial
surplus heat at the right temperature. Nobody
in Denmark would invest in a heat pump if there
was a lot of surplus heat to be gained from an
industry or from any other source for that matter.
Waste incineration. We don't like waste incineration
in the future and we want to limit it, but as
long as we have it. Why waste the heat? Hydrogen
production? We don't even think about burning
hydrogen for heating in Denmark. Nobody talks
about that ever. But in hydrogen production,
there is a byproduct. That's a lot of heat. Let's
use that to heat our homes. So, yes, I like heat
pumps very much. I'm just saying there's also
other sources out there. You spent a lot of time
in Copenhagen and Denmark overall, and you also
spent a lot of time in the UK. Can we talk for
a moment about skills? Because this is a big
subject, because it's all connected, and our
goal is to get to net zero. Do you think we have
the skills here? All over Europe there is a tremendous
skills issue because all over Europe and the
UK we are looking into we need to make heat plants.
We need welders. We need people who can operate
a district heating system and we do not necessarily
have them or clearly we do not have them. But
it's not a situation where we come 100 % from
nothing because people who are good at welding
can be trained to weld district heating pipes.
People who are good at city planning can be trained
to do city heat planning. So it's not a completely
new industry, but of course with the requirements
or the expectations we have that district heating
should grow so fast, we need a lot of commitment
from educational institution at all levels and
all trades more or less. We need a lot of dedication
from national governments that they want this
to happen. The national government says we need
to do, and the numbers changes, but say 30 %
district heating within a very short timeframe.
That is a growth that you cannot, that's hard
to imagine. And there they need to follow up
with training, education, And then they need
to be open to use foreign skills. We also need
to tell all the manufacturers of pipes and pumps
and what have you that we need new products that
we can use for this fast, fast, fast change in
the world. It should be easier to lay pipes.
That is a fair requirement to the pipe manufacturers.
It should be easier to, we should digitalize
much more. our whole planning process. It still
requires skilled planners. Yes, it does. But
we have systems that can assist it. And there
are countries in the world who has already come
a long way on this. Denmark is one of them. That's
a very interesting point, particularly about
Weld, as I was on a project recently, and they
were talking about the value of exactly that
kind of skill. And also, it's establishing, as
you say, that kind of joined -up approach between
government, between business. between institutions,
training institutions, etc. So you've answered
my next question, Morten, which takes me on to
your own lifestyle choices. We're talking a lot
about saving the planet, creating a better future
for generations to come, a cleaner planet, more
sustainable energy. How does that all factor
out in your own lifestyle? I'll first say, from
a district heating perspective, It doesn't do
a thing because I have lived in a home with district
heating since the 70s more or less. I've been
abroad living a short period of time, but in
Denmark I think I've only been in homes with
district heating. And in Denmark it's such a
natural thing, you don't even think about it.
Working in this business and having children
inspires me a lot for my lifestyle. I'm cautious
about how much I fly. Even though that my job
is traveling out from Copenhagen and tell everybody
at district heating, I fly more than most people,
but I'm careful how much I fly. I'm careful how
much I drive. I even acquired a electric car
recently. So there's a lot of small things I
do. My hope is that sitting here, talking with
you, being in Germany yesterday, working with
some specific projects, is my contribution to
a better world and a better planet. Thank you.
That's certainly inspirational. Thank you very
much. And there's a lot of lessons to be learned
there. Thank you very much to Morton today for
providing such valuable insight to us. There
can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest
challenge of our time. Today we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we
must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles
to current and future impacts of climate change.
Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. Today we work for
tomorrow's world. Thank you once again to Morton
for spending such incredible time today to talk
to us. about your work and the district heat
network systems. Don't forget please do subscribe
to our podcast channels and you can always email
with ideas please at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. We'd love to hear what you think about
today's podcast and we'd also love to hear your
suggestions for future podcasts. So thank you
very much to Morten, thank you for your time.
Hannah, thank you for inviting me, it was a pleasure.
You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information
about our work and to find more content, please
visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.