WEBVTT 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:10.830 This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast 00:00:10.830 --> 00:00:14.070 from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate 00:00:14.070 --> 00:00:16.690 Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:19.510 the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker 00:00:19.510 --> 00:00:21.510 and I believe that the best way to communicate 00:00:21.510 --> 00:00:24.410 a message is by being passionate about what you 00:00:24.410 --> 00:00:26.929 are talking about. Through that passion, I believe 00:00:26.929 --> 00:00:29.910 you take people with you and create action using 00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:32.850 your influence to make change and make a difference. 00:00:33.210 --> 00:00:36.990 Our task today is to get all of us to net zero. 00:00:38.009 --> 00:00:40.770 My guest today is Morten Djoerdal who is a recognised 00:00:40.770 --> 00:00:43.810 expert on heat networks. He knows everything 00:00:43.810 --> 00:00:46.390 there is to know about the development and implementation 00:00:46.390 --> 00:00:49.609 of district heating in Denmark. He spends much 00:00:49.609 --> 00:00:52.390 of his time working in the UK explaining the 00:00:52.390 --> 00:00:55.170 value of heat networks and providing insight 00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:58.159 into their operations. He will talk to us today 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:00.619 about the part heat networks have to play in 00:01:00.619 --> 00:01:03.619 our society, our cities and our communities. 00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:08.840 Morton works for DBDH, which is a Danish member 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.280 organisation with members from the entire Danish 00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.420 district heating sector. Its vision is to create 00:01:15.420 --> 00:01:18.060 a better world that benefits from sustainable 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:21.140 district energy. Morton has also served as head 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:23.840 of secretariat at District Energy Partnership, 00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.799 a Danish district energy lobby organization. 00:01:27.340 --> 00:01:30.319 District Energy Partnership works to improve 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.159 framework conditions for district heating, thereby 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.659 enhancing Europe's rollout. His career began 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:38.680 in the district heating industry in Eastern Europe 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.599 and Russia more than 20 years ago. And since 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.400 then, he has worked as a business development 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:48.260 director in a large organizations. So welcome. 00:01:48.489 --> 00:01:51.969 To Morten, good to see you. Thank you, Hannah, 00:01:52.189 --> 00:01:54.549 and thank you for inviting me. That was some 00:01:54.549 --> 00:01:57.209 nice words. Thank you. Okay, let's get started. 00:01:57.290 --> 00:02:00.310 I'd like to start by talking a little bit about 00:02:00.310 --> 00:02:03.769 your career and your education and how you started 00:02:03.769 --> 00:02:07.430 this journey and what your background is. Obviously, 00:02:07.430 --> 00:02:10.490 to most people in this industry, I'm not an engineer. 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:14.409 I'm actually from the, I'm educated at the business 00:02:14.409 --> 00:02:17.819 school, so I'm kind of an MBA. a Danish version 00:02:17.819 --> 00:02:22.000 of the MBA and my very first job was in district 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.340 heating where I did training courses. My very 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:26.780 first real job was in district heating. We did 00:02:26.780 --> 00:02:30.960 training courses for Russian and Eastern European 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.199 district heating experts because they have and 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.800 especially had a very different approach to this. 00:02:38.990 --> 00:02:41.729 But in reality, my very first job in district 00:02:41.729 --> 00:02:44.689 heating was when I was around 15 years old because 00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:48.009 my father asked me to dig the trench from the 00:02:48.009 --> 00:02:51.069 street so they could lay pipe into our house. 00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:53.849 I made a fortune, I thought. Well, I felt like 00:02:53.849 --> 00:02:57.430 I made a fortune. So that's your background. 00:02:57.789 --> 00:02:59.610 So it's business, but obviously there's a little 00:02:59.610 --> 00:03:01.710 bit of digging work going on. But you are now 00:03:01.710 --> 00:03:04.289 working heavily in district because district 00:03:04.289 --> 00:03:06.990 heating is... I'd like to know exactly what it 00:03:06.990 --> 00:03:09.969 is because it isn't new, is it? Here over in 00:03:09.969 --> 00:03:11.969 the UK, the Sheffield District Heating Supply 00:03:11.969 --> 00:03:14.569 Company established a heat network back in the 00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:18.590 1870s. Pimlico District Heating undertaking opened 00:03:18.590 --> 00:03:22.650 in the 1950s. So it's not new. Can you explain 00:03:22.650 --> 00:03:25.949 exactly what they are and how they work? In a 00:03:25.949 --> 00:03:30.169 way, it started out being just a very large boiler 00:03:30.169 --> 00:03:33.050 system. Everybody in the UK have a gas boiler 00:03:33.050 --> 00:03:36.960 or nearly everybody anyway. and then they have 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.520 a boiler and then they pump heat around to the 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:42.780 radiators. Now imagine you enlarge that system 00:03:42.780 --> 00:03:47.599 tremendously and you put very large boilers or 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.620 waste incineration plants or other really huge 00:03:50.620 --> 00:03:54.060 heat sources out in the city or outside the city 00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:58.479 and then you just pump hot water in highly isolated 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.479 pipes that is in the street to each and everybody's 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.050 building and home. and then we use that hot water 00:04:06.050 --> 00:04:09.669 to heat. So the interior in your home is exactly 00:04:09.669 --> 00:04:12.370 the same. The heat just comes from somewhere 00:04:12.370 --> 00:04:16.370 else through big pipes and these systems can 00:04:16.370 --> 00:04:20.189 be really, really big. In Copenhagen from north 00:04:20.189 --> 00:04:23.350 to south we have like 70 kilometers now in a 00:04:23.350 --> 00:04:27.269 connected system and east west it's around 50 00:04:27.269 --> 00:04:30.750 kilometers and in Copenhagen they provide heat 00:04:30.750 --> 00:04:35.420 to more than a million people. far more than 00:04:35.420 --> 00:04:37.939 a million actually when I think about it. So 00:04:37.939 --> 00:04:41.279 it's a centralized system. Okay, so I want to 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.699 go back to Copenhagen and I want to talk also 00:04:43.699 --> 00:04:46.540 about our awareness of heat networks. But at 00:04:46.540 --> 00:04:48.920 Salix, we work very much with energy efficiency 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:52.040 measures and we're looking all the time at decarbonization 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:54.699 and getting rid of those old fossil fuels. So 00:04:54.699 --> 00:04:58.800 on the heat networks front, are you saying these 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.740 are good for the planet? In my opinion, yes, 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:04.379 they're really good for the planet. That's the 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.079 shortest possible answer. The difference between 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.120 you probably have a gas boiler where you live. 00:05:10.379 --> 00:05:13.600 The difference is if you want to change the heat 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.180 source in a district heating system from gas 00:05:16.180 --> 00:05:19.399 or oil or coal in good old days to something 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:21.319 that is really renewable, then you only have 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:25.199 to do it one place. Instead of going out to millions 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:29.000 and millions of homes and changing their boiler 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:33.680 or their heat source there, we can change centralized 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.899 and we can change in a way where we make it cheap 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:40.199 for everybody. So the question was is it climate 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:44.579 friendly? Yes it is. In Denmark we are around 00:05:44.579 --> 00:05:49.220 75 % carbon neutral in our district heating and 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:52.079 that number is growing every day because we are 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:55.199 pushing out all the fossil sources more and more 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.459 and introducing new renewable sources. Electric 00:05:59.459 --> 00:06:03.439 boilers running on solar power and wind power, 00:06:03.720 --> 00:06:08.360 heat pumps, biomass, surplus heat. There are 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:10.920 so many heat sources that are otherwise wasted 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.579 or that are really renewable that we can now 00:06:13.579 --> 00:06:17.240 put into our systems. We think we will reach 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:22.420 close to 100 % in 5 -10 years, 100 % renewable 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:27.040 heat. That is... Good for the climate. That's 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.100 good for the world. And that is that is certainly 00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:32.100 good for our planet. Exactly You mentioned the 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:35.160 word cheap because we've all got our eye haven't 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.759 we on the budgets and the heat networks are not 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:43.079 cheap Are they they're not initially cheap? No, 00:06:43.300 --> 00:06:46.639 but they're affordable. Yes, they are the cheapest 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.480 solution we have in the in the towns and cities 00:06:51.339 --> 00:06:54.339 Not in the urban areas, not in the rural areas. 00:06:54.500 --> 00:06:57.040 There we should do definitely individual heat 00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:59.480 pumps. That's the absolute best solution out 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.579 there. But in urban areas, and that's from small 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:05.759 villages of maybe, I don't know, 500 buildings 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.779 and up, maybe even smaller, there it is the cheapest 00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:12.579 alternative when you look at the overall total 00:07:12.579 --> 00:07:16.540 cost of ownership. The problem, and the reason 00:07:16.540 --> 00:07:19.240 why you say it's not cheap, is probably because 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:22.759 you compare to natural gas. And that is a hard 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:26.180 one to compete against because that is heavily 00:07:26.180 --> 00:07:29.439 subsidized over the years. We already have the 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.980 gas network in place. But let's also be fair 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:38.079 and say, I think it's 2045. In the UK, you have 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.259 agreed that we should not have fossil heat in 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:45.560 our heating systems. And that excludes natural 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:49.009 gas. So you can't continue comparing to something 00:07:49.009 --> 00:07:51.370 you don't want to use in the future. You need 00:07:51.370 --> 00:07:55.709 to compare to real alternatives. And it may cost 00:07:55.709 --> 00:07:59.949 a tad more, but it's cheaper than the alternative. 00:08:00.670 --> 00:08:04.230 And cheaper than that alternative I call affordable. 00:08:05.589 --> 00:08:10.149 I will also say that in that calculation, we 00:08:10.149 --> 00:08:12.730 do not include future costs for the climate, 00:08:12.750 --> 00:08:16.310 for instance. That is not a part of it. We do 00:08:16.310 --> 00:08:21.250 not include political costs like local jobs or 00:08:21.250 --> 00:08:25.750 local supply chain or import independence, making 00:08:25.750 --> 00:08:31.069 us less dependent on resources from states we're 00:08:31.069 --> 00:08:34.509 maybe not too happy about. That's also a value. 00:08:35.610 --> 00:08:39.169 And that is not included in my Affordable. Exactly. 00:08:39.470 --> 00:08:41.690 So you're arguing that that is something we don't 00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:45.289 factor in, the result of climate crisis and the 00:08:45.289 --> 00:08:48.590 kinds of issues that we see on our news. Just 00:08:48.590 --> 00:08:50.730 come back to Copenhagen because you've talked 00:08:50.730 --> 00:08:52.490 about Denmark, you've talked about Copenhagen, 00:08:52.669 --> 00:08:54.769 and indeed Copenhagen is one of the world's most 00:08:54.769 --> 00:08:57.950 extensive district heating networks, and I think 00:08:57.950 --> 00:09:02.570 it supplies about 99 % of the city. Why in the 00:09:02.570 --> 00:09:06.850 UK, when you compare us to somewhere like Copenhagen, 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.159 Why are we so behind, if you like? I think we 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:14.259 have to go back a very long time. The reason 00:09:14.259 --> 00:09:17.460 why we have a lot of district heating, twofold. 00:09:18.580 --> 00:09:21.139 In the energy crisis in the 70s, at that time 00:09:21.139 --> 00:09:24.320 we already had some district heating and it was 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.879 fairly successful and fairly okay. So we knew 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:31.480 what it was. And when we had the energy crisis 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.500 in the 70s, we did not have a lot of natural 00:09:35.500 --> 00:09:40.080 gas. we could use. It's my personal personal 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.899 guess and opinion that if we have had all the 00:09:42.899 --> 00:09:45.820 gas you knew you had in the UK, we would probably 00:09:45.820 --> 00:09:48.559 have had the same amount of gas heating as you 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:53.460 have today. So we were lucky. We felt unlucky 00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:56.960 at that time, but we were lucky. So from the 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.139 70s onwards, especially after the first heat 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:05.360 law in Denmark in 1709, we went down two routes. 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.399 We made sure that our buildings were more and 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.639 more and more energy efficient. We have some 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:13.779 of the highest energy efficient standards for 00:10:13.779 --> 00:10:17.419 buildings in Denmark. And at the same time, we 00:10:17.419 --> 00:10:20.940 dedicated different areas either to have district 00:10:20.940 --> 00:10:24.659 heating or to use natural gas. So we never rolled 00:10:24.659 --> 00:10:27.940 out a double system. You didn't do that either 00:10:27.940 --> 00:10:31.299 in the UK. You just only rolled out natural gas 00:10:31.299 --> 00:10:34.120 networks. but we had that choice between the 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:37.100 two different systems and when you do not have 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:41.720 to invest in more than one as you did then it 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.200 becomes fairly inexpensive and it's something 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:49.320 we give to everybody so why are we ahead of you 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:52.620 in the numbers is because we felt unlucky in 00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:57.299 the 70s what i see when i look at the uk today 00:10:57.299 --> 00:11:02.059 i see Enormous commitment from many local authorities, 00:11:02.419 --> 00:11:04.779 both in Scotland and in England, where I work 00:11:04.779 --> 00:11:07.779 a lot on this carbon agenda. They're really, 00:11:07.779 --> 00:11:11.279 really searching for ways to be able to deliver 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:15.820 an affordable, fairly priced green heat solution 00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:18.379 to the citizens. And when you look at Scottish 00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:22.440 government and DESSNAS, the English Energy Agency, 00:11:23.379 --> 00:11:26.629 I think they do a lot of good things. I, of course, 00:11:26.690 --> 00:11:29.870 would love them to do much more and much faster, 00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:32.990 but that's my job also. Remember that. In terms 00:11:32.990 --> 00:11:35.549 of actually warming our homes and our buildings, 00:11:36.590 --> 00:11:39.470 public buildings, et cetera, which country do 00:11:39.470 --> 00:11:43.169 you think is best at it today? I'm paid to say 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:48.549 Denmark. Yes. I think we do it quite well in 00:11:48.549 --> 00:11:54.009 Denmark. We have affordable prices in general 00:11:54.009 --> 00:11:58.000 in Denmark. The vast majority of buildings in 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.139 Denmark are heated by district heating, two -thirds 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:05.639 of them are. They are fairly renewable and we 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:08.379 are moving fast forward on the renewable part 00:12:08.379 --> 00:12:13.620 of it. We will reach 100%. We also see that, 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:15.879 if you look at it a bit broader perspective, 00:12:16.379 --> 00:12:18.960 the Danish district heating sector does a lot 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:21.750 of good for the electricity grid. We have a lot 00:12:21.750 --> 00:12:26.490 of wind and solar in our electricity grid. Today, 00:12:26.549 --> 00:12:29.289 the sun is shining and it's fairly windy. I haven't 00:12:29.289 --> 00:12:31.809 checked electricity prices, but they are low 00:12:31.809 --> 00:12:35.750 today. I must assume they are low because we 00:12:35.750 --> 00:12:38.850 have a lot of renewable electricity. And here 00:12:38.850 --> 00:12:42.350 we have the district heating world that can take 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:46.330 up all that inexpensive, nearly surplus electricity 00:12:46.330 --> 00:12:51.029 and use that. On the other hand, we can decide 00:12:51.029 --> 00:12:54.250 not to use electricity in the district heating 00:12:54.250 --> 00:12:58.350 world when the prices are high. So we can move 00:12:58.350 --> 00:13:01.490 away when there's a need for electricity in society 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:04.570 and when there's too much we can step in because 00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:09.309 we can store heat a lot better. So we have managed 00:13:09.309 --> 00:13:12.389 to put together a system. I'm not in any way 00:13:12.389 --> 00:13:15.909 saying it's perfect, it's not, but it's rather 00:13:15.909 --> 00:13:20.460 good. we are looking into the overall cost of 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:22.860 society every time we make decisions. So we're 00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:26.580 also fairly sure we do good for Denmark. So it 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:29.139 is really that looking at all of those sources, 00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:31.899 because we do, through our work here at Salix, 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.620 we do look at solar, and obviously all the time 00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:37.019 there's hydro in the background, geothermal, 00:13:37.379 --> 00:13:40.879 biomass, and of course ocean energy, all of that. 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.710 So why are we so obsessed with Am I allowed to 00:13:45.710 --> 00:13:49.269 say this in this country with heat pumps? What's 00:13:49.269 --> 00:13:52.389 your view on heat pumps? My view on heat sources 00:13:52.389 --> 00:13:56.309 is the more you have the merrier. That's my first 00:13:56.309 --> 00:13:58.850 point of view because then sometimes electricity 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:01.669 prices are low or biomass prices are high or 00:14:01.669 --> 00:14:04.289 something and then in a large system you can 00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:07.350 switch around. That is very important to keep 00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:11.669 prices down. You are very and what my view on 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:15.500 heat pump is that they are They are very, very 00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:19.360 important for the future of district heating. 00:14:20.259 --> 00:14:24.019 We are seeing a lot of heat pumps being introduced 00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:27.980 on any source you can imagine. Not warm enough 00:14:27.980 --> 00:14:31.159 surplus heat from industry, from air, from sewage, 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.259 from data centers, from all the sources you can 00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:37.940 manage. A heat pump is pretty neutral when it 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:42.190 comes to the heat source that it uses. My view 00:14:42.190 --> 00:14:45.830 also is that no matter how much I like them, 00:14:46.429 --> 00:14:50.250 there are also other sources out there. Industrial 00:14:50.250 --> 00:14:53.110 surplus heat at the right temperature. Nobody 00:14:53.110 --> 00:14:55.710 in Denmark would invest in a heat pump if there 00:14:55.710 --> 00:14:59.169 was a lot of surplus heat to be gained from an 00:14:59.169 --> 00:15:02.269 industry or from any other source for that matter. 00:15:03.389 --> 00:15:06.429 Waste incineration. We don't like waste incineration 00:15:06.429 --> 00:15:08.909 in the future and we want to limit it, but as 00:15:08.909 --> 00:15:12.419 long as we have it. Why waste the heat? Hydrogen 00:15:12.419 --> 00:15:15.899 production? We don't even think about burning 00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:19.860 hydrogen for heating in Denmark. Nobody talks 00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:22.779 about that ever. But in hydrogen production, 00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:26.299 there is a byproduct. That's a lot of heat. Let's 00:15:26.299 --> 00:15:30.379 use that to heat our homes. So, yes, I like heat 00:15:30.379 --> 00:15:33.480 pumps very much. I'm just saying there's also 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.240 other sources out there. You spent a lot of time 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.960 in Copenhagen and Denmark overall, and you also 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.600 spent a lot of time in the UK. Can we talk for 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.720 a moment about skills? Because this is a big 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.519 subject, because it's all connected, and our 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:52.240 goal is to get to net zero. Do you think we have 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.940 the skills here? All over Europe there is a tremendous 00:15:56.940 --> 00:16:00.960 skills issue because all over Europe and the 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.519 UK we are looking into we need to make heat plants. 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.960 We need welders. We need people who can operate 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.419 a district heating system and we do not necessarily 00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:14.960 have them or clearly we do not have them. But 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.440 it's not a situation where we come 100 % from 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:23.360 nothing because people who are good at welding 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.340 can be trained to weld district heating pipes. 00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:31.080 People who are good at city planning can be trained 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:37.139 to do city heat planning. So it's not a completely 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:41.000 new industry, but of course with the requirements 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.259 or the expectations we have that district heating 00:16:44.259 --> 00:16:48.879 should grow so fast, we need a lot of commitment 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.820 from educational institution at all levels and 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:55.960 all trades more or less. We need a lot of dedication 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.360 from national governments that they want this 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.580 to happen. The national government says we need 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:06.079 to do, and the numbers changes, but say 30 % 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.980 district heating within a very short timeframe. 00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:12.420 That is a growth that you cannot, that's hard 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:16.420 to imagine. And there they need to follow up 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:20.049 with training, education, And then they need 00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:24.890 to be open to use foreign skills. We also need 00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:28.490 to tell all the manufacturers of pipes and pumps 00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:31.690 and what have you that we need new products that 00:17:31.690 --> 00:17:35.410 we can use for this fast, fast, fast change in 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:37.990 the world. It should be easier to lay pipes. 00:17:38.849 --> 00:17:41.630 That is a fair requirement to the pipe manufacturers. 00:17:42.230 --> 00:17:46.170 It should be easier to, we should digitalize 00:17:46.170 --> 00:17:49.589 much more. our whole planning process. It still 00:17:49.589 --> 00:17:52.930 requires skilled planners. Yes, it does. But 00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:57.670 we have systems that can assist it. And there 00:17:57.670 --> 00:17:59.890 are countries in the world who has already come 00:17:59.890 --> 00:18:03.269 a long way on this. Denmark is one of them. That's 00:18:03.269 --> 00:18:04.970 a very interesting point, particularly about 00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:06.869 Weld, as I was on a project recently, and they 00:18:06.869 --> 00:18:08.970 were talking about the value of exactly that 00:18:08.970 --> 00:18:12.250 kind of skill. And also, it's establishing, as 00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:14.430 you say, that kind of joined -up approach between 00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:17.890 government, between business. between institutions, 00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:22.130 training institutions, etc. So you've answered 00:18:22.130 --> 00:18:24.730 my next question, Morten, which takes me on to 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:28.289 your own lifestyle choices. We're talking a lot 00:18:28.289 --> 00:18:31.950 about saving the planet, creating a better future 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:34.970 for generations to come, a cleaner planet, more 00:18:34.970 --> 00:18:37.410 sustainable energy. How does that all factor 00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:41.589 out in your own lifestyle? I'll first say, from 00:18:41.589 --> 00:18:44.460 a district heating perspective, It doesn't do 00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:46.799 a thing because I have lived in a home with district 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:52.619 heating since the 70s more or less. I've been 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:55.119 abroad living a short period of time, but in 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:58.180 Denmark I think I've only been in homes with 00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:00.940 district heating. And in Denmark it's such a 00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:02.839 natural thing, you don't even think about it. 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.440 Working in this business and having children 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:11.099 inspires me a lot for my lifestyle. I'm cautious 00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:14.170 about how much I fly. Even though that my job 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:17.329 is traveling out from Copenhagen and tell everybody 00:19:17.329 --> 00:19:19.730 at district heating, I fly more than most people, 00:19:20.049 --> 00:19:25.470 but I'm careful how much I fly. I'm careful how 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:30.369 much I drive. I even acquired a electric car 00:19:30.369 --> 00:19:33.049 recently. So there's a lot of small things I 00:19:33.049 --> 00:19:37.029 do. My hope is that sitting here, talking with 00:19:37.029 --> 00:19:40.509 you, being in Germany yesterday, working with 00:19:40.509 --> 00:19:44.359 some specific projects, is my contribution to 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.140 a better world and a better planet. Thank you. 00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:50.319 That's certainly inspirational. Thank you very 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.119 much. And there's a lot of lessons to be learned 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.099 there. Thank you very much to Morton today for 00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:59.440 providing such valuable insight to us. There 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.839 can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.849 challenge of our time. Today we must reduce greenhouse 00:20:04.849 --> 00:20:07.769 gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we 00:20:07.769 --> 00:20:10.430 must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles 00:20:10.430 --> 00:20:13.029 to current and future impacts of climate change. 00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:16.309 Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver 00:20:16.309 --> 00:20:19.250 on our climate commitments. Today we work for 00:20:19.250 --> 00:20:22.569 tomorrow's world. Thank you once again to Morton 00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:25.230 for spending such incredible time today to talk 00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:28.150 to us. about your work and the district heat 00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:31.509 network systems. Don't forget please do subscribe 00:20:31.509 --> 00:20:33.970 to our podcast channels and you can always email 00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:37.390 with ideas please at podcast at salixfinance 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:41.289 .co .uk. We'd love to hear what you think about 00:20:41.289 --> 00:20:44.069 today's podcast and we'd also love to hear your 00:20:44.069 --> 00:20:47.589 suggestions for future podcasts. So thank you 00:20:47.589 --> 00:20:49.690 very much to Morten, thank you for your time. 00:20:49.910 --> 00:20:52.849 Hannah, thank you for inviting me, it was a pleasure. 00:20:53.390 --> 00:20:56.069 You've been listening to the Decarbonisation 00:20:56.069 --> 00:21:00.410 Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information 00:21:00.410 --> 00:21:03.750 about our work and to find more content, please 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:08.349 visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.