This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate
Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker
and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Through that passion, I believe
that you take people with you and create action
using your influence to make change and make
a difference. Our task today is to get all of
us to net zero. My guest today is Jenna Hegarty
and Jenna is a highly experienced policy advocate
with more than 15 years of experience in the
third sector. She is here today to talk to us
about her work with the Nature Friendly Farming
Network. Jenna has been interested in farming
for quite some time. In fact, her master's thesis
written in the early 2000s and spotlighting the
ability of agri -environment schemes to tackle
biodiversity loss resulted in a lifelong passion
to nature -friendly and climate -smart farming,
as well as a professional drive to ensure that
farmers are robustly supported on their nature
-friendly farming journeys. The Nature Friendly
Farming Network is a membership organisation
led by farmers working alongside other organisations
and public supporters. The network aims to provide
a platform or voice for sustainable food and
farming in the UK. Before joining the network,
Jenna worked at the RSPB, starting out as an
Agriculture Policy Officer, progressing to Deputy
Director for Advocacy. Prior to the RSPB, Jenna
worked for Natural England, covering the new
forest. Today, Jenna works to support farmers
towards nature -friendly farming. The organization,
as I say, gives a voice to the experiences of
farmers who are leading the way, sharing knowledge
that empowers those in transition to produce
plentiful food. So, welcome to Jenna today. Thank
you for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thank
you. So, Jenna, can we start a little bit by
talking about your career and where your interest
in the environment and farming begins? It's probably
not an exaggeration to say I was a bit of an,
well, an accidental environmentalist. I grew
up in very urban South Yorkshire, not from a
farming background, at least probably not, you
know, certainly not this century or the last
century. And the countryside was a place that
you visited when you went on holiday. And it
wasn't really, certainly for my family, it wasn't
a place that you actively went and sought out
kind of at weekends or anything like that. So
I was a late adopter. It wasn't until my mid
-twenties that I would categorize myself as becoming
an environmentalist. And it was that kind of
quite comedically indirect route when you go
to uni and you start studying one thing and then
quirks happen and accidents happen and you suddenly
discover a whole other world and that then becomes
the world that you're interested in. And yeah,
I went to uni to initially start studying French,
but you couldn't do it on its own. You had to
pick something else. So I picked politics because
it meant that I could sleep in longer on a particular
day. It's ridiculous, but this is how it happened.
And through the politics side of things, I then
basically got very interested in European politics.
And obviously we were still in the EU then as
the UK. and was fascinated by just how much our
land in this country is influenced by the policy
frameworks around it. And obviously at that point,
they largely derived from Europe. And yeah, as
part of that, farming is the biggest land use
in this country and indeed in most countries.
the impacts that it has, which can be very negative,
but also very, very positive. The natural environment
just grabbed me and it hasn't really let go since,
to be honest. Moving on to climate change, which
is, I would argue, the most pressing issue of
our time. It's certainly not a distant threat.
We're seeing hotter temperatures and more severe
weather extremes and drought, poverty, et cetera.
How are farmers in the UK able to make a difference?
Because farming is a big contributor to our climate
issue, isn't it? I mean, greenhouse agriculture
contributes to climate change through the release
of various greenhouse gases, whether it's methane,
nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, et cetera. So
how are farmers? What part of the farmers have
to make? Farming is the fourth largest industry
in terms of its greenhouse gas emissions, and
it's projected in the not too distant future
to be the second largest, mainly because other
industries are decarbonizing much more rapidly.
We can't forget that farming as a land -based
industry is literally on the front line of climate
change. nobody will have missed the horrendous
images of fields literally underwater last winter.
And that is, it's climate change, it's climate
change happening, more and more extreme weather
events, more wet winters, drier, hotter summers,
and that all has massive implications for farming
and what we can grow and produce in the country.
a really unique position to be at the vanguard
of solutions to this. And obviously we've got
to accept that a significant amount of climate
change is essentially locked in, but it's not
hopeless. And farming has an incredibly important
role to play both in mitigation, so reducing
greenhouse gas emissions, but also adapting to
a changing climate. and you know if we don't
do that and I think it's really important to
just reiterate how serious this is. I mean the
the UK government's own food security reports
emphasize that you know that the twin climate
and nature crisis is is the biggest long -term
medium to long -term threat to food production
in the country and and that is replicable across
across the globe. So this isn't um you know kind
of oh yeah that's a problem but we don't need
to worry about it. It's a problem that will that
is already impacting our ability to grow food.
I mean, the wet winter last year, well, so the
kind of 23, 24 winter, that massively impacted
the ability to establish and then harvest crops.
So it's not some dim and distant future. You
know, climate change is happening now. So we
need to respond to that now. And it's about taking
essentially nature -based mitigation and adaptation
responses. So it's absolutely about hardwiring
our climate response with nature at its core
because nature is probably the most important
partner to farming that you can get, not least
because it can do a lot of stuff that we currently
pay for, as in buy in. for free and what business
doesn't want to secure more for nothing and boost
its profitability. Okay. So that adaptation that
you talk about, can you explain how government
policies can play a role in helping our farmers
in the UK make those adaptations for climate
change? And is it just about financial support?
Because in your work at the Nature -Friendly
Farming Network, do you see a lot of farmers
engaging in that conversation as well? Yeah,
definitely. Farming, like any other industry,
is quite a broad church. You have lots and lots
of views and opinions within that, but fortunately
the consensus is, as the science supports, that
climate change and nature loss is here and now
and we absolutely need to respond to it. And
let's also not forget that the reason why farming
is is at the heart or kind of at the root of
many of the issues that we're facing is because
of misguided policy signals and incentives that
have come in recent decades, particularly after
the Second World War. That's when a lot of the
problems really started in terms of perverse
policy incentives, let's say, that drove a very
kind of productivist approach to land management,
so get as much off the land as possible, including
putting as much into the land to get those high
yields out. caused a lot of unintended consequences.
So again, farmers like any other industry, they
follow the signals that they are provided. And
we have to accept societally that government
signals for a long time were not the right ones.
And that's hurt farming as much as it's hurt
anything else. So I suppose there are two main
ways that government policy is really, really
important for tackling climate change and adapting
to it. Bluntly, you're talking about incentives,
so payments for doing good stuff, but the flip
side of that is regulation too. Regulation is
really important. It creates a solid foundation
for incentives to pay on top of. It's really
important just to ensure a do -no -harm approach
to land management. Indeed, you can keep nudging
that regulatory baseline up. Not many people
are like massive funds for kind of, you know,
the law telling them to do X, Y and Z, but it's
important. It's there for a reason. So having
a really solid regulatory foundation is important,
but incentive payments are absolutely part of
that. And it's really important to recognise
these as payments for services produced by farming.
but they're environmental services and the plastic
market has not geared up to pay for restoration,
not particularly well anyway. So government support
is absolutely vital because it's essentially
addressing a market failure to reward farmers
for the provision of... Is that where your role
comes in day to day? You're working on those
issues? Yes. I mean, put simply, my job is all
about trying to create the pressure for and demand
for more nature -friendly farming across the
UK. And policy is absolutely imperative for that.
But it's also not just government policy. So
private policy by businesses is also really,
really important. It's not all about the public
purse, taxpayers. kind of painful absolutely
needs to be produced. The private sector has
as equal if not more more of a responsibility.
And we all have that responsibility though don't
we because we are consumers and agriculture is
essential for feeding us and we know our population
is going to be reaching what nine billion ten
billion by 2050. I mean our population is growing
so we need to get this right don't we and do
you think that all of us are prepared to change
our habits and in terms of our diet, because
that's all going to impact when you start. I
mean, you can do certain things with government,
certain things with policy, but there's everything
else too, isn't there? Yeah. And what we eat
and what we view as desirable to eat, that's
influenced by a huge range of factors. And our
diets today are very different than they were
30 years ago, 60 years ago. And we've got very
used to having everything that we could possibly
want and need whenever we want it. And that situation
has been created by a variety of things, but
including the supply chain and big food businesses.
boiling it down so it's a real simplicity. We
know that it's not good for us. Our current diet,
societally, is causing loads of health -related
problems. It's also very climate -intensive.
It can create all sorts of localized pollution
issues as well, if you think about intensive
pig and poultry units right next to rivers, for
example. So I don't think it's a question of,
you know, is change necessary? It is absolutely
necessary, but I do think diets can and often
are weaponized as a subject by certain interests,
and any suggested change to people's diets is
seen as almost like an infringement of personal,
you know, rights, and it's ridiculous. I mean,
if we look at the the the climate change uh you
know committees advice around dietary shifts
or indeed you know kind of not just them it you
know it's something in the order of a few sausages
left on average per week you know so it's it's
not like you know and everybody's got to go vegan
and start wearing hair shirts and uh and you
can only walk anywhere it's It really isn't.
So a lot of us have got the wrong diet, but we've
certainly got this population growth. So we're
going to have to create more food. It's just
finding a way then of making this environmentally
friendly. Because as you say, it's not just you
can't just hit us over the head and tell us we've
all got the wrong diet. There's a lot of food
waste as well. And I was reading some figure
from I think the UN about, and it shocked me
actually, about a third of all food grown in
the world is wasted. That's a third. and apparently
about 13 % between harvest and retail stages
and about 17 % in households and in the food
service and retail sectors of waste. So there's
a lot there's a lot else going on in that whole
area. And in terms of technology, we've got it's
quite an exciting time. I mean, I go and visit
a lot of sites as part of the work that we're
doing with public sector decarbonisation scheme
and decarbonisation projects. And I see a lot
of new technology that's forever changing. So
I think that's probably there's a light there,
isn't there as well in the technology that is
becoming more prevalent, really, and fast moving.
Yeah, I think Tech's an interesting one and I
think, you know, tech can be used for good and
tech can be used for bad, you know, and I think
in terms of food and farming, it's about making
sure that we are working with the tech with a
clear kind of destination in mind and that we're
clear about the kinds of farming and land management
that we want to see because even you've got some
brilliant tech and innovation out there which
is geared towards really precision application
of farm inputs. So for conventional farming systems
that do use, well it doesn't even need to be
nitrogen fertiliser, it could be livestock manures,
but tech that helps farmers really understand
what their soils need at any given point in the
growing cycle and only applying that. That's
a really great bit of kit because overall it
helps reduce in applications of unnecessary inputs
which if they're unnecessary the soil won't take
it out but it'll end up in water courses and
then it'll create problems further down the line.
We just have to keep an eye on tech because it
can be used for illers as well as good and if
you're essentially propping up a fundamentally
unsustainable system of production, but you're
just making it less bad through the use of tech,
then it's still fundamentally unsustainable.
So it's about the right tech to tackle the problems
that we have. Yes. So it's a fast subject, isn't
it, when you talk about biodiversity and... soil
erosion and then there's the coastal leaks and
coastal water pollution if you like. Can I ask,
so day -to -day you're busy influencing in policy,
in terms of your own passion for the environment,
how has that seeped into your own lifestyle?
Have you made lifestyle changes? Are you looking
at the way you use our natural resources? I think
for me, like most people, things are a bit of
a journey and you do things at different points
in your life for different reasons. But I think
the one consistent thing, again, going back to
me being a late bloomer as an environmentalist,
but that connection to the natural environment
is... profound and I think just gets deeper as
I get older and it's about remembering and keeping
that true to my purpose about well why do I do
what I do you know whether that's choosing the
food that me and my family eat including what
we choose to grow at home right through to the
type of job I do and you know it's no accident
that I work in a not for -profit industry, that
it's about trying to secure positive change at
scale that is fair to people, fair to the environment.
Like many people who are conscious of how they
live and what they do, I try not to fly. I eat
an entirely plant -based diet. kids and my partner
don't but when we do buy meat it's good meat
it's meat that's you know kind of been reared
in a you know in ethical ways that is giving
as much back to the environment as it's taking.
So yeah I think it's just it's been it's been
mindful and it's also just remembering at the
end of the day we are not separate from nature
we are part of nature and you know we forget
that at our peril. Yes exactly and I mean that's
all part of as I say it's ingrained in your whole
principles and the values that are important
to you and it's something that we all want to
do and we know we should probably be doing more.
It's making it accessible, isn't it? I mean,
in terms of farming, it's certainly challenging
times in the UK for the farming industry and
indeed across the world. May I ask, Jenna, what
next for you? You've been influential in the
policy sector. You're certainly making a difference
in the way people lead their lives through that
farming network. and you're obviously clearly
passionate and you have that mission, you're
driven. What next for you? Well, I've been at
the Nature -Friendly Farming Network for less
than a year, so I hope I'll be around here professionally
for a wee while longer yet. I suppose, you know,
as a policy professional, I mean, I've worked
in policy for years, but it's definitely become
a much more holistic approach over those years.
And kind of fairly early on, I didn't realize
that having the best, most compelling facts and
figures and being right wasn't enough. You have
to communicate in a way that essentially kind
of remembers our human history as storytellers.
And if we can't package up the very important
facts and figures around climate change, around
nature loss and the solutions to them, in ways
that different audiences will not just accept
but will grab and run with then we'll kind of
be doomed to just kind of bang our heads against
a brick wall and whether you're thinking about
farmers as an audience or decision makers in
government or you know the general public just
realizing where people are and communicating
to them effectively is is probably in a very
broad sense where I'm most interested to take
my career next because it's about connecting
with people and working together to get to a
better place. And that's a very good point because
that is the challenge, isn't it? The storytelling.
We need the facts. We need the statistics. We
need the science. We need all of that. We know
that our planet is warming. We're facing this
warming. We know we are in a climate emergency.
But it's how does it make people feel? And I
think that's the danger that there's too much
kind of catastrophizing, if you like, if you
see it on the news, which we do see on the news
every day. And I remember those photographs of
the country being flooded, of those areas. And
in fact, at the time last winter, I was certainly
driving through a lot of that water and got stuck
in various areas, couldn't get to where I wanted
to be because of roads closed, et cetera. But
it's making people Feel it, isn't it? That's
the art, isn't it? It's making it real. And it's
not just something you're seeing that happens
to other people. Actually, this is something
that has an impact on all of us and certainly
to future generations. And we want to make it
better. So that storytelling is really interesting
that you've come back to that. Thank you very
much to Jenna. There can be no doubt that climate
change is the biggest challenge of our time.
Today we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions
to slow global warming. Today we must act for
tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current
and future impacts of climate change. Today,
we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. Today, we must work
for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe
to our podcast channels and please tell us what
you think. Please email us at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. But I'd like to say a big thank you
to our guest today and that's Jenna Hegarty.
Thank you very much for sharing your time and
for sharing your story. And let's hope we can
talk again as well. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you.
You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information
about our work and to find more content, please
visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.