This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate
Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker
and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Through that passion, I believe
that you take people with you and create action
using your influence to make change and make
a difference. Our task today is to get all of
us to net zero. Welcome today to my guest Veronica
Sikoulis who has more than 30 years experience
working in art galleries. She is an art curator,
educator and writer with a background in the
environmental movement and is Director of Groundwork
Gallery in Kingslyn, England, which she created
in 2016 to showcase art and to campaign for the
environment, a subject she has long been interested
in. Her long -term interest in the environment,
which informs Groundwork Gallery, stems from
a formative period working for Friends of the
Earth. As a result of this, she wrote the Friends
of the Earth cookbook published by Penguin Books
in 1980 and has many books including on medieval
art. About groundwork, she has said, my idea
was to create a social, political and educational
asset as well as a new place for showing art.
Groundwork Gallery has hosted more than 20 exhibitions
and won several awards. Before that, Veronica
is known for her work at Sainsbury Centre for
Visual Arts, University of East Anglia, where
she was first curator, then head of education
and research and deputy director. From there,
she has run many international and local projects.
She has also worked as an independent consultant.
And from 2005 to 2006... She was on secondment
to Tate Britain to manage the early stages of
the visual dialogues project for young people.
Delighted to have you. Thank you very much for
joining us today. Thank you very much. I'm delighted
to be here. Thank you. Now, Veronica, can we
start by you telling us a little bit about your
career because you're an art historian, a published
author. And you're now heading up and, as I said,
formed and developed and launched this successful
and unique gallery space with a focus on the
environment. And you've also been called an environmental
activist. So tell me a little about this journey
and how it started. Well, I mean, it actually
started with my grandmother taking me to see
art when I was four, against the advice of my
parents who said she'd be bored. But I wasn't.
I was completely enthralled. And I remember seeing
a portrait of which she took me to the National
Portrait Gallery and she gossiped with her friend
while I stared at the Armada portrait of Queen
Elizabeth I and imagined myself in there with
her. And that was really formative, both I think
probably me as a medievalist or historian anyway
because not medieval but almost, but also just
loving art from that moment and being an advocate
also for that being important for young people
throughout their lives. So that was one thing.
I mean the other really formative thing was after
I finished my degree, which was in art history,
it turned out also my grandmother had studied
art history in Vienna. I was joining Friends
of the Earth. That was a chance move. I needed
a job for the summer and my friend was leaving
and was running their administrative office and
I went for an interview the next day and got
the job running the front office, which I did,
I then extended, I was signed up to do PhD, but
I put that off so I could do an extra year. That
was really transformative and made me think very
much about how influence is made, how people,
how one works both, has need to work both bottom
up and top down to have an effect. And it's affected
my entire career and my entire approach to how
to organize things. So those were the two things
really. What the gallery has done is brought
a lot of those early things together and also
my experience working with communities and working
with people. I think it's very important to talk
about art. There was a time when I did want to
be an artist and could have gone that way, but
actually I was, for one reason or another didn't,
but actually I found that there is a huge role
to play in talking about art and responding to
it and it's a responsibility that everybody has
or ought to have because it's through that that
the beautiful things and important things that
artists make then get an intelligent response
and that's the one thing actually the art world's
really not very good at. I mean there are education
departments but they tend to be stereotypically
directed towards children, which is important,
but actually there's a huge audience potential
amongst adults. There is. Art has this very magical
way of bringing us into a conversation. Forget
language, forget politics. It has a way, like
you talked about your very early experience,
it has a way of absorbing us and triggering a
conversation, no matter how we feel about it.
doesn't it? I mean, art is accessible. Yes, it
does. But I mean, ironically, people are terribly
afraid of that because they feel they need to
talk knowledgeably, which of course you don't
have to talk knowledgeably. You just need to
express yourself and use it as a trigger to talk.
I mean, one of my friends and mentors in the
environment movement said to me a long time ago,
I don't need artists to talk about art. I can
talk about art. It's there for me. A new work
of art is a new thing come into being and it's
there for me to launch from and that's important.
Yes. It's about how we feel, isn't it? And as
you say, it can portray something that's perhaps
difficult to say and we don't need to make everything
terribly complicated. But in terms of climate
change, because we're talking about climate change
today and we're looking at massive challenges
as we face climate change, What part do you think?
We've just talked about that responsibility that
we all have. I mean, artists have that responsibility
to talk about this agenda, not agenda, but to
talk about what is happening to our planet. What
part do you think art has to play? As we've started
saying, it can be a transformative experience.
In that respect, it can help people think about
change. Artists are very good at being lateral
thinkers and not going for the most obvious but
pointing out things that have been neglected
or, for example, thinking about weeds rather
than present them. So I think it's about influencing
people to think openly about things and about
the environment. And I think thinking about climate
change, we have to think about the environment
very broadly and very deeply. It's not just about
reaching net zero. Reaching net zero includes
that, of course. Now, I was speaking in a recent
podcast actually to Australian artist Catherine
Boland. She's actually UK born. And it was her
piece of art actually that was given by the Australian
Prime Minister to Joe Biden when he was president.
She works around climate change. Her studio is
in the bush and the area that she lives, which
is incredibly beautiful around Mirambula Lake,
was very impacted by the bushfires. And she talked
to me very passionately about being able to talk
about climate change, but in a very direct and
digestible way. She felt that her art was a way
of getting to people in a subtle but It is there
in that way. And your gallery, it's obviously
a wonderful place to come and visit, but the
artists that you're showing, can you tell me
a little bit about who they are, but what they
are showing and what do you expect from the artists
that you show in terms of their commitment to
the environment and sustainability, their sustainable
art practices, for example? I always say they
don't have to be committed environmentalists
directly. because I am and my audiences and that's
what I'm here for is to engage with with that
bridge as it were. For example the very first
two artists I showed Richard Long and Roger Ackling.
Roger Ackling was a dear friend who lived in
Norfolk was well known in the art world particularly
but pretty well known and very well known in
Japan and he made art by burning on wood. He
died very sadly during my setting up of the gallery
But I said to him, Roger, I want you to be my
first artist, because I'd like a big name. And
he said, well, in that case, I've asked Richard.
And so he asked Richard Long, who has since become
friend. Neither of them declared themselves to
be environmentalists. And recently, Richard Long
gave a talk in Norwich and said, I'm passionate
about nature. It matters to me. And the environment
matters to me. But I'm not an activist, neither
of them. And there are a lot of artists like
that who are don't call themselves environmental
artists. And that's perfectly fine. But in those
two cases, their work is absolutely ethical in
terms of not causing harm to the environment.
And that's my bottom line. Very reluctant, for
example, to show artists who paint with acrylics.
Because as I learned from working with a microbiologist,
every brush worth even of household paint washes
billions of microparticles of plastics into the
drainage system. and that's one of the big no
-no's for me but I mean that quote there are
other problems so there's there's a lot to think
about in terms of materials artists use in terms
of the practicalities but I look for artists
who are seriously engaged in their own research
and their own deep thinking so as I said doesn't
be directly about the environment it has to be
relevant and then there are many many many artists
who would would say they are environmental who
paint watercolours of landscapes, for example,
or skyscapes or seascapes or anyscapes. And I
like that kind of thing, but I feel there's a
place for that that's already taken in many popular
galleries. And I feel I need to work and push
a bit harder and work with people whose work
is less accessible, but actually can be really
powerful in its impact. And so I follow themes.
I've always thought in that way rather than looking
at, I don't do solo shows and work on personalities,
although the odd big name does help, but another
big name I had in the early days, and it was
important in the early days actually to establish
that, those big names, because that means now
actually I can pretty much rely on that I could
show anyone. Yes. The other big name was Herman
de Vries, who's an extraordinary grand old man
of the environment, who lives near the forest
in the Steigerwald, he's Dutch but lives in Germany.
and he says the forest is my studio and he's
a scientist at root at heart but actually an
exploratory experimental artist but using earth
pigments but in a very simple and clear way and
he's like he's got a museum in the south of france
of his earth pigments which he's collected from
around the world and made into images and they're
very simple and actually there were some of the
earliest things I showed and also his collection
of stones and they were incredibly irritating
to all the watercolour artists because he spent
hours making detailed images and he just kind
of stroked the pigment on the paper. So I had
many conversations with him saying he's a natural
philosopher and actually one of those most vehement
critics said he's a charlatan. he became a very
devoted follower of the gallery you know so i
love those conversations or when i've got my
richard long which is the great ooze mud drawing
he threw mud at the wall and the classic comment
people make is did the builders throw coffee
at the wall? And that's the beginning of a conversation.
Yeah, it is that, it's triggering that conversation
exactly. And I mean, none of this is, it's obviously
not new, because you've mentioned Richard Long,
who's obviously been around for a while and been
working for a while. And then I think back to
Agnes Deane in the 1980s and the wheat field.
in Manhattan there, and which really got people
talking. And there are many, there's Andy Goldsworth,
he isn't there, Yorkshire Sculpture Park. So
there's a lot of stuff, it's not new, but it's
giving it a fresh showcase, I suppose, and bringing
it back into the conversation and using it to
inspire another generation as well, isn't it?
Yes, I've mentioned great, two great, three great
men. But actually, in fact, most of the artists
I've shown have been women overall, and most
of them much, much less high profile and less
well known. And they all love showing their work.
The Richard Long work lives in my gallery all
the time and people always take photographs of
their work next to it and they're very proud
to be seen next to it. There are many, many,
many artists who are working seriously. who are
not celebrated but who need to be recognized
and brought into conversations and their work
seen and developed. So what I've been doing,
I said I had theme shows and many found many
really wonderful artists that way. Some people
have come to me, some people have recommended,
some people I look for once I know the theme
and I think yes, that person would be perfect
for that. The works I often like the most are
the most modest and the smallest and the most
subtle because they're not shouty and there's
some shouty big artists in the environment world.
The people I show tend not to be, they're the
quiet ones. I respond to that very much but the
other thing I've really done more and more of
over the years is develop a residency program
and it started because I designed the building
as repurposed 1930s building and the ground floor's
classic gallery first floor multi -purpose live
workspace and so I was intended to have an artist
working there living there. And so it started
in 2020 with a partnership with the University
of the Arts London, and a young artist had that
space. In fact, I had three, because there were
two others of my own, one after the other. And
then immediately afterwards, they had an exhibition.
And the next year, there were more artists. And
I had then two partners, both in the country,
one in Reefam and one in Great Cressingham Grange
projects. And we had more. And then it grew.
Last year we had 20 artists, this year we had
150 applications, but we're scaling down to 12
artists. But what I do now is they do a program
over the summer and then they show for the autumn
exhibition. So what we're really getting is a
response to the environment directly. Yes, so
you are engaging even more people. But can I
just talk to you for a moment, Veronica, about
the actual space? Because in terms of the way
you operate Groundwork Gallery, I just want to
understand what kind of sustainable measures
you have in place that reflect this mission.
Because it's actually built on a floodplain.
You say it's a repurposed 1930s building. And
how has that impacted the way you use? I mean,
built on a floodplain, how has that impacted
the way you use? You've got these wonderful pieces
of art, and I'm slightly worried that you're
built there on a floodplain. Granny died, left
legacy. In fact, a series of grannies died, or
grannies and aunts, and so that enabled the project
to take place. So they're all commemorated there.
And it was started as just a project to get a
buy -to -let property, but then this little industrial
building was available opposite the Custom House,
perfect position in Kingslyn. but actually yes
right on the river as an investment it's hopeless
because one day it will be washed away but that
was one of the imperatives making it about the
environment and also the fact that it is in the
floodplain is not allowed to be lived in on the
ground floor so that had to be some other purpose.
It wasn't necessarily always going to be a gallery
in my mind. I was thinking, should I run workshops
there or I could let it? But anyway, then I thought,
no, it's got to be. It cannot be anything else.
It's perfect scale. And so I found a local builder
who said, I've made enough money this year. I'll
build it at cost for you. And he also did a lot
of repurposing of materials. The floors and the
staircase are made of scaffold boards and there's
a scaffold rail as a stair rail which is actually
one of the most admired features of the building,
funnily enough. The bathrooms are lined with
recycled plastic made by artists and the top
floor is a holiday let and that's what pays.
And there I've used local materials, designer
materials, high quality handmade stuff. So locally,
very locally sourced and sustainable and you're
using a local local craftspeople as well as well
as materials. Yes, I mean in fact the gallery
is run on a shoestring and I am the chief technician
as well as the chief writer and marketer and
everything else delivery person and everything
and it has to be that because I can't afford
to pay staff. I have wonderful volunteers and
I have a fantastic graphic designer Piers Marchbank
who's really help to establish the ethos and
the look of the place. So I've got a suite of
exhibition furniture which gets used for everything
but somehow it manages to look different each
time. So I've got plinths and things that I was
given by the Sainsbury Centre. A great big table
case I had made at the beginning. I sell jewellery
made by artists in cases that again I've had
since the beginning and reuse all the time. So
I'm waiting for somebody to make a substitute
for bubble wrap that really is both waterproof
and keeps things safe because that is at the
moment the only unavoidable big issue. Yeah,
but I reuse that. And when people come into the
space, I'm quite interested to know who wanders
in. Do you think people realize that that much
thought has gone into that space? They get told
that on the call because we talk to everybody
who comes in. And Catherine, who works with me,
also is wonderful, very wonderfully sociable
and informed and good at talking to people. And
they often don't realize, and we get quite a
few people, increasingly people dropping in.
I mean, people are often afraid of coming into
galleries and feel intimidated, et cetera. We
know that. We make a point of being friendly.
And it does say so on TripAdvisor and on Google.
The first thing you see is the statement saying
that staff are very friendly. So that's an important
signal to send. People will get a warm welcome
and get to talk to you about the staircase just
as much as they can talk to you about the art
on the walls. Yes, and also everyone has something
to say about the environment and the weather
is a good opening. So we could always steer the
conversation. Now it's fascinating and it's a
huge passion project as well as a fantastic addition
to the local community. I can see that and to
the art world. and to be able to bring such a
mix of names into that project as well. But for
you, I can see you certainly have got your work
cut out. As you say, you're the technician, you're
the communications, you've got the vision, you've
clearly got the vision. But what next for you?
Because you've obviously had a highly successful
career, you've published author. You've launched
this gallery, you've headed major art projects.
What next, Veronica, because it's really interesting
to keep an eye on people like you, because I
know you've probably got a whole bag full of
further ideas and plans. Well, there are two
big things. One is that there's a big threat
at the moment of development to The Wash, which
is the area between Lake Country and Norfolk.
We're gathering a band of people from wildlife
organizations, environmental campaigners and
artists to make a very big statement in favor
of the environment of that whole area because
the threat would turn it in basically into an
industrial zone and it would be really terrible
and needs to be contained. That's going to be
a huge campaign that's we go way, way beyond
me but I hope grandma will be very keen in that.
I mean the other thing I'm thinking about and
I'm not sure yet is but I'm thinking about writing
a history of art and environment because if you
look up art environment history it starts in
American land art and of course it started way
before and as a medievalist I feel there's a
lot to say about earlier periods. I'm just reading
actually Peter Frank Pan's The Earth Transformed
which it is taking an environmental focus on
very broad sweeps of history. For me that's incredibly
broad. I would want to be quite specific in the
way I am with art and would like to use case
studies and examples to talk about different
attitudes because there's a lot that we can do
and that I guess is my background as an art historian
does give me the tools to think from a work of
art to a wider world and that's what I'd like
to do. Okay so we're going to look out for the
campaigns, the books and obviously the gallery
and can I ask is that gallery open how many days
a week for people wanting to come by? It's open
four days a week, so Wednesday to Saturday, 11th
or 4th, but other times by appointment and often
there are events happening on other days. Okay,
well, I'm definitely going to come and I'll leave
the dog outside, but she'll be with me, but I'm
definitely going to come. So, thank you very
much for this conversation today and for taking
such time and we really appreciate it here at
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. So there can be
no doubt that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. Today we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions to slow global warming. Today we
must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles
to current and future impacts of climate change.
Today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. Today we work for
tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe to
our podcast channels and please tell us what
you think and please email us at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. So a big thank you to Veronica for her
time today. Thank you. Thank you very much. You've
been listening to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
a podcast from Salix. For more information about
our work and to find more content, please visit
salixfinance .co .uk forward slash. podcasts.