This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to Delivering on Climate
Change, our collective challenge. Welcome to
the Decarbonisation Dialogue. I am Hannah Walker
and I believe that the best way to communicate
a message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Through that passion, I believe
you take people with you and create action using
your influence to make change and make a difference.
Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
With me today we've got a wonderful guest and
that's Nadine Mustafa. Nadine is a research associate
in chemical engineering department and the centre
for environmental policy at Imperial. Nadine
specialises in systems modelling for carbon management
and decarbonisation technologies, developing
net zero strategies including carbon accounting,
policy and carbon markets. Her work integrates
socio -economic and techno -economic aspects
of various energy technologies, including carbon
capture and storage from various applications,
CO2 removal from the atmosphere, nuclear power
and sustainable fuels. Nadine also serves as
the Programme and Policy Officer at the Coalition
for Negative Emissions, advancing negative emission
technologies and related policies. Nadine graduated
in Chemical Engineering and Business Management
as a minor from the University of Birmingham,
and her PhD research focused aspects of carbon
capture, which involved a study of the kinetics
of carbon dioxide absorption. But I'm hoping
Nadine can explain all of that in very simple
terms. I am afraid I am not a scientist. But
welcome very much to Nadine. Welcome. Lovely
to have you here today. Thanks, Hanna. Thanks
for the introduction. Thanks for having me. Okay
Nadine, can we start off by talking a little
bit about your career in science, engineering
and environment. You're a strong role model.
Is this an area, for example, and I'd like to
know about your background, how you moved into
it. And I'd also like to know, is this something
you would encourage, for example, girls to consider
as a career? The short answer is yes. I'd definitely
encourage girls to join this career. I have to
say though that I joined it by pure luck. And
I also want to say that it's probably because
I didn't have enough role models in the space
when I was younger. So I was the kind of student
that got the highest grades. I was valedictorian
and so on and so forth. But the only option that
was ever presented to me was being a medical
doctor. And that's quite common. So I'm Egyptian
and it's quite common in the Middle East that
if you're a top student, you do medicine or engineering.
But as a girl, it was always that, you know,
no, you're going to be doing medicine. It makes
more sense. I'm not really sure why, because
the hours actually are not as flexible. But usually
as a girl, you're pushed into medicine. And so
I was actually going to do medicine. And I mean,
even my A levels, I didn't do physics because
I was going to do medicine. And the only reason
I ended up in engineering was because I was talking
to my parents and they wanted to send me abroad
to study. And I felt that I didn't want to stay
abroad for that long. Jokes, obviously, because
I've been in the UK for 10 years now. But at
least when I was younger, there wasn't enough
role models within the space of engineering and
science to show you what you can do within that
space. So sometimes all you think about when
you think about it of an engineer is that you
think of someone with a hard yellow hat and a
blue jumpsuit, which is absolutely not true.
I actually know very few people that wear this
blue jumpsuit in engineering from everyone I
know that's an engineer. And so I think just
the general understanding of what engineers can
do is something that we might lack and there's
a lot of things that happened since I got into
engineering that kind of help with that. And
you're using your skills and your education,
that engineering background for good now because
your job is largely about the impact of climate
change and actually looking at the solutions
to mitigate that. Can I ask, because we're going
to spend hopefully a large part of our... interview
today talking about sustainable fashion. But
before we do, I'd like to talk about the trends
regarding clean energy at the moment. Because
it's not all doom and gloom, isn't it? I know
you're quite a positive person in nature. I've
read the interviews, by the way. Yeah, I mean,
a lot of people do say that I'm quite optimistic.
And I am because When I first started my PhD
and I was telling people that I work in sustainability
and climate change, very few people knew what
I was talking about. And then there was a point
where I was volunteering and teaching and I asked
students, you know, what do you know about climate
change? And they actually knew a lot. And so
I was very surprised. So like the first five
slides of my presentation became redundant because
they actually knew what I was talking about.
Whereas if I were to give that lecture or lesson,
a couple of years back before that time, no one
would know what I was talking about. My friends
wouldn't know what I was talking about. They
didn't necessarily understand why it was important
to be more sustainable or what climate change
was. And when I was first working on carbon capture,
again, pretty much no one knew what I was doing.
My sister is an engineer. She had no idea what
I was doing. I'm optimistic because I think there's
so much happening in this space. There are, there's
so many policy directions, like the directions
of the policies are going in the right way. And
industries are trying to also go in the right
way. And I think there's an overload of information,
both from a, I guess, from a governmental or
industry perspective, but also from a consumer
perspective. And so we need to kind of collaborate
more on that. But generally, I'm an optimistic
person because I think there's a lot happening
in this space. There's a lot of people talking
about this, doing research, working in this space,
really trying to get us to our targets in decarbonization
and net zero. And so, yeah, I don't think it's
all gray and dull. I do think we're going in
the right direction. The only thing I would say
though is that now is probably the time for action.
We've talked a lot about this. We're researching
a lot and we're going to continue doing that.
We're going to continue talking and we're going
to continue doing the research. We're going to
continue communicating the science and we're
probably going to need flexible policies, whether
governmental or industrial, as we know more.
But we do need to do more action now and less.
you know, talking about it. Okay, so you're seeing
a lot of good policy, a lot of business decisions,
and you talk about all of us. Now, here's a good
chance for us to move on to sustainable fashion,
because it's something that we're all in some
way involved in. Now, according to the United
Nations Alliance for Sustainable Fashion, the
average consumer now buys 60 % more clothing
than we did 15 years ago. So we're buying, we're
consumers, aren't we? We're big consumers. We're
buying a lot more. And I know that you've done
a lot of work on fast fashion and sustainable
fashion. Why are we talking about this in connection
with climate change? Why, what does sustainable,
I'd like to know what does sustainable mean and
what is sustainable fashion? So I would say sustainable
fashion is designing, producing and consuming
the clothes in ways that minimize environmental
harm. And so that's how I would define it. And
I would also consider things like the ethical
labor practices. I would put that under sustainable
fashion. And the reason we consider it a thing
and we need to think about it is that fashion,
for example, contributes a lot to the global
CO2 emissions. As far as I remember, the last
reference I've read was 10 % of global CO2 emissions,
which is a lot. So I think in comparison, aviation
is 2 % to 4%. And I can send references just
to make sure that the numbers are absolutely
correct. I mean, other than CO2 emissions, it's
also the second largest consumer of water worldwide.
It pollutes the oceans with microplastics. Textile
dying itself is also a large polluter of water.
I think it's also the second largest. And then
that also means that, you know, a lot of our
textiles are actually dumped each year into landfills
or burnt. And so 85 % of all textiles are dumped
each year or something like that. It's quite
important to kind of consider all of this and
generally kind of think about what does sustainable
fashion mean. I do think it's unfair to kind
of place the entire burden on individuals. So
it's not, as you mentioned, there's, you know,
a lot of textiles being produced and as I mentioned
actually when it comes to things changing so
I remember when I was at university I did a minor
in business management and part of a supply chain
management course I studied how amazing the supply
chain of Zara was because it can design produce
and like you know get to the point of sales the
lines within two weeks and so The fact that suddenly
we used to produce two fashion lines per year,
so autumn, winter, and summer is spring, summer,
and suddenly we can start producing 50 lines
per week was an amazing thing from a supply chain
perspective, right? And we studied that. I remember
I wrote an assignment about how amazing they
do this and how they cut the lines and all of
that. And then fast forward five, whatever, years
later when I was doing my PhD and looking at
climate, I was like, oh my God, that's horrific.
The fact that we do this is horrible. And whilst
it's amazing from a supply chain perspective,
it's horrible from a climate perspective. And
we don't need that many clothes. Again, I think
that kind of points back to what I was saying
about, you know, things do change. And I've seen
that based on just my studies from undergrad
to PhD. So that's why I'm optimistic. And you
quoted a figure a few minutes ago, which is quite
jaw dropping, actually, you said something, I
think. you'll correct me again, I'm sure, but
85 % of textiles end up in landfill. Is that
85 % of textiles, because there is that overproduction
that you've talked about, is that the textiles
that are being overproduced or is that the material,
are those the materials that are being bought,
consumed and then discarded, or is that everything?
Everything, I think it includes everything. Yes,
yeah. So just come back to that sustainability.
You're right, it can't just be up to the individuals,
but it's not as simple. I think about my daughter,
who's a university student, and she shops in
charity shops. She does the vintage. She doesn't
buy new. She buys secondhand, recycled, or she's
either in my wardrobe, actually. But is it as
simple as organic? Because there are many sustainable
alternatives, aren't there? Organic. vegan, renting,
swapping, all of those issues around that. I
mean, is that something you also look at? Does
that make a difference? It definitely makes a
difference. Again, I can't remember the exact
statistic, but it was something like if you were
to keep your clothes for an extra six months
and actually wear them, you instantly decrease
the environmental impact by, let's say, 25%.
I'll get the exact statistic and send that to
you. But so something as simple as Genuinely
maintaining your clothes and, you know, wearing
them can have a massive difference. Doing everything
you just mentioned makes a massive difference.
Washing clothes in a way where, so not under
extreme heat, so under colder water decreases
the amount of microplastics that goes into the
ocean. So there are things that as individuals
we can do. And the more we do these things, we
also send more of a signal to industry and government
that we need that, you know, this is something
we care about. And so we need you to act upon
it. The only reason I said it's a bit unfair
to kind of put the whole burden on individuals
is because there's a lot of information. And
so, I mean, I think about that and anything else
that I buy that I'm not really, you know, an
expert in or know much about. So, for example,
skincare. I try to look into that and I mean,
I'm a scientist, I'm a researcher, and I still
get overloaded with so much information. It's
like you get someone telling you, you know, this
is absolutely so bad for your health. And then
the second person says, you know, no, this, no,
this is amazing for your health. And then it
goes on and on, especially with social media.
We cannot expect an, you know, an average consumer
to not even average, you know, even someone that,
you know, can actually do the research. to do
that research for apps for every single choice
they make, right? Like it's too much. And so
it shouldn't really be that sustainability. I
mean, the aim, I think the goal that we need
to reach is that it shouldn't be the sustainability
is a luxury, but it's that it's the default.
And to do that, it needs to be a collaborative
thing between individuals, the consumers, basically
policies and also industries. Everyone needs
to kind of take their share of responsibility
because no one specifically is exactly to blame,
right? But if we all do our part, we're going
to reach that goal where it's the default. It's
not a luxury. It's not a luxury that you only
do if you can afford to spend more or if you
can afford extra couple of hours a week where
you're doing this research. It should be something
that's easily accessible and affordable. Generally,
at the moment, if you want to buy something new
that's sustainable, there is a price, isn't there?
Do you think people, at the moment, you're relying
on people wanting to pay more for something that's
been sustainably and ethically produced, aren't
you? Yeah, so it's definitely more expensive.
I think there has been surveys where they asked
if people are willing to pay the extra price
for something more sustainable. And the surveys
showed that, yes, there's a lot of people that
are willing to pay this extra price for something
that's sustainable. So without industry being
extremely transparent and you know the right
policies it's a bit hard to kind of justify paying
more because are you sure that this is actually
more sustainable because you will definitely
find you know some information out there that's
saying it's not. And as I said like as an average
consumer I mean I don't have the time to kind
of you know make sure that every every single
choice I make on a day -to -day basis is more
sustainable. And that's too much, right? And
so that's why I think it's a collaborative thing
that we need to do. And that's why I think it
shouldn't be a luxury, it should be a default.
And it's not that now, then that's fine. But
that's what we should be working towards. Do
you, in your view, do you think people, we're
talking about the general public here, do you
think people are prepared to change? Do you think
people want to do the right thing? And do they
care enough? I do think people care and I do
think people are prepared to change. But as I
said, I think it's quite important for it to
be a collaborative thing. It's quite important
to be involved in the process. It's quite important
for there to be transparency and trust. And sometimes
I think industries think that they need to solve
the problem tomorrow and that's not the case,
right? We just need to know that you have a plan.
and it's not perfect now, but it will be close
to perfect at some point. It might not be perfect,
but it's good enough for now. Having this flexibility
where we're moving towards long -term robust
models that are sustainable, whether it's from
a business perspective or from a consumer perspective
or from a policy perspective, is quite important.
as i said the reason i'm a lot of the reason
one of the reasons that i'm more optimistic about
this is because a lot of people actually you
know come and ask me questions they're like is
this actually you know more sustainable should
i be doing this or should i just like not do
that because i've seen videos that say both to
be very honest it's not that i always know the
answer so sometimes i actually have to go i'm
like i actually don't know and fashion was one
of those things where i didn't know I mean, as
you mentioned in my bio, it's not really my expertise,
like the fashion part. The environmental impact
part is my expertise, but its application into
fashion is not something that I've done from
a purely research perspective. It wasn't my PhD,
but it was something that someone asked me. And
then I also thought about it. And I was like,
I actually don't know how bad this is. And I
remember when I first saw the environmental impact
statistics, I was like, oh my god, I mean, let's
say I'm working on aviation and it's like, you
know, two to four percent and everyone's so worried
about this. Why aren't people worried about that?
And so I think people do care. I am getting a
lot more questions about this, both by the way,
both from an individual perspective and from
a business perspective and from a policy perspective.
So. being a researcher at Imperial, you get to
be quite close to the real world impact and contributing
to policies and business strategies. And so there's
a lot more traction now than when I first started
my PhD of people coming and asking us, they're
like, can you please submit evidence on this?
Can you please look into this for us? And should
we bother with it? And how can we actually reach
net zero and so on? So I think People are asking
and people do care, both consumers and industries
and governments for sure. It's just that there's
a lot of information, as you say, out there and
it's a matter of getting through that information
and working out the truth isn't there. And as
you say, you're a scientist and you've struggled
to reach that information. So we're facing a
climate crisis. In terms of energy, let's talk
about energy for a moment. What do you think
the picture looks like in the UK? Do you think
we're doing enough? to tackle climate crisis
because we have a 2050 target for clean energy
and zero carbon. Do you think we're leading the
world or do you think we're trailing behind?
Do you think we're on track? Because obviously
we can't afford to stand still, can we? I think
the UK is a leader in terms of targets. So we
have very, very strong targets for 2050. We have
the Committee on Climate Change. So they've just
published their latest budget. you know a lot
of really good progress in terms of decarbonizing
their energy demand so phasing out coal and investing
massively in renewables for example we've decreased
our emissions by more than 40 percent compared
to the 1990 levels but the first 40 percent is
probably the easy part because like we you know
phasing out coal already kind of gave a lot back
a lot of carbon budget back Whilst, yes, we have
very ambitious targets and whilst, yes, we're
going in the right direction and, yes, there's
a lot of policy directions that I think are very
optimistic, we're not necessarily on track to
meet them without bold coordinated action. And
so now is the time to kind of start doing the
things. We need to start building the plans to
produce our sustainable fuels. We need to start
looking into how we're going to be doing our
energy storage. We need to start looking into
what kind of infrastructure are we going to need
to electrify our lives, basically. We might not
get everything right the first time, and that's
fine, but the only way to kind of learn, there's
a certain part of engineering, the only way where
you learn is when you start doing it, and then
you're like, okay, no, actually I can do this
better the next time. And so I think we're at
that stage where we need to start learning by
doing, because that also obviously decreases
the costs of things. And so the UK has the ability
to be a leader in that, being a leader in the
technologies and actually decreasing the costs.
We do. We have that possibility. And we also
have a lot of natural advantages, don't we, in
the UK? Obviously, we can't rely on wind and
we can't rely on sunshine, but we do have a lot
of natural advantages, but challenges around
connectivity, don't we, in this big conversation
about where our power comes from and all the
mixes, energy mixes. Just going to talk about
that net zero or goal for net zero. Do you think
we have the skills? Because that's the other
big topic of conversation. You're a scientist
and you've been working on this agenda. You've
talked about how you're explaining it to your
colleagues, your friends, your family. But do
you think we have enough skills? Because do you
think we have enough experience? And I'm talking
about the practical skills as well, from whether
it's fitting of heat pumps, which we haven't
talked about, but it's all in that energy mix,
to sourcing the right materials and whether that's
the we're talking about sustainable fashion.
Do you think we've got the skills and then the
vision? I'm going to answer this with I don't
know. And purely because this is something that
I'm working on. The reason I say I don't know
is because we actually haven't done enough. studies
to kind of you know sit down and be like okay
this is how many people we need for this this
is how many people we need for that and the reason
i said i don't know it's not that you know do
we have enough enough skills it's that we really
need to consider the retraining and reskilling
of the skills we already have because there is
a lot of overlap and i think people kind of you
know forget about that they forget that we have
a lot of overlaps like for example if we're talking
about you know capturing co2 transporting it
and storing it We've built pipelines. We know
how to do that before, maybe not for CO2, but
we've done pipelines before, right? And so we
can retrain and reskill people from the different
industries that have done this to do that, other
than carbon dioxide, but also hydrogen. There's
a lot of hydrogen in our net zero strategies.
Again, the storing of hydrogen, for example,
or the transporting of hydrogen, we haven't done
it for hydrogen specifically. to a large scale,
but we've done it for other things. We've done
it for natural gas, for example. So it's not
just as simple as we need to find all these new
skills for what we're going to do. It's more
that, okay, we have those skills. We have X and
Y and Z skills. How can we repurpose, retrain
and reskill or utilize those skills to make sure
that we don't lose them before the next generation
comes up? As well as that diversification of
skills, there's quite a few skills, skilled people
retiring, you know, that we've had that expertise
and they're going to disappear at some point.
Yeah. So I remember I did like a qualitative
thing for nuclear power and the age of the workforce
was, a lot of it was above 50. And so unless
we, unless we kind of, you know, we've lost the
part in between because we weren't doing nuclear
power for a couple of decades properly. But then
if those people choose to retire in the next
five years and we don't have a plan to make sure
that their expertise is moved down to the different
generations or the upcoming generations, then
we lose that skill set completely. And so I think
the answer is not, yeah, as I mentioned, it's
not as simple as we're going to be doing this
massive transition and we need all these new
skills because that's not true. We don't need
all these new skills. we're going to need some
new skills yes and we're going we need to make
sure that we get those but also we're going to
have a lot of skills already at hand that we
can retrain and repurpose and re -skill and so
doing this doing this at a large scale is quite
important and we actually just submitted evidence
to the parliament on this and one of our researchers,
so there was five of us at Imperial that submitted
evidence on this and one of, and we got called
into the Parliament and one of our, one of the
researchers went to Parliament to kind of present
that research. So also something I'm working
on, just measuring the socio -economic impact
and you know what kind of jobs do we need and
under what categories. I think we need to go
a step further and you know map the skills we
already have, how are we going to kind of Use
them in the in this transition what skills can
we might we be losing and how can we maintain
this and just have a plan basically on that and
i think that's why the. Again an optimistic thing
that's the reason the parliament asked for evidence
on this so we're definitely going the right direction
and hopefully you know. And at some point we're
going to have that plan, but it's something we
need to do for sure. Fantastic. And that is fascinating
work. And particularly when you talk about nuclear,
because that's a very good example of that as
we revisit nuclear, the skills, let's grab that
before they do disappear. Interesting age demographic
there as well. So how does your work and your
passion for the environment impact your own lifestyle?
I kind of think about the different things I
buy or how I travel or where my energy comes
from. I also start thinking about, okay, what's
going on with the energy transition in Egypt,
for example, or I grew up in Kuwait, so I think
about that as well and just any country I visit.
And what's really interesting about this, I think,
is something that also affects my research. For
example, fashion was something that's not in
my research, but it's something that I looked
into because I was like, okay, this is something
I buy. You know what's going on there. Whenever
I travel and then looking at it from a global
perspective and realizing, you know, there's.
there's different countries involved in this
we all need to reach net zero we all need to
you know contribute to the to the to minimizing
our carbon budget and all of these countries
have different resources and so they're all actually
going to reach their net zero targets and in
different ways is also quite cool and impressive
and again it reflects in my research when i think
about things because Then I'm like, okay, you
know, there's no silver bullet. And I always
say this, I think in any interview I've ever
been on, I always say, you know, there's no silver
bullet. And the more I work on different technologies,
the more I realize there isn't a field that I've
been in so far where I'm like, if we do this
one technology, we'll be able to solve that whole
field. There is just, you know, I haven't come
across that yet. And so it definitely shapes.
how I live both from a personal perspective,
but also from a research perspective. And they
both blend in, which is really nice. And they
give me ideas. So my personal perspective also,
you know, gives me ideas with my research perspective.
But as I mentioned, it's not always easy to kind
of live sustainably, fully, and it's not always
affordable. And so I try to kind of focus on
the most meaningful things I can do because,
you know, no individual can solve this alone.
And that's why I think throughout the whole interview,
I said, collaborating a lot. And I said, you
know, we used to do this together a lot. You
do talk a lot about community, community of knowledge.
You talk about the global. If we can all just
talk, it's not just one person's responsibility,
whether it's government, whether it's business,
whether it's all of us. You talk a lot about
that. In terms of your work, one final question
I do have for you is that you've achieved a huge
amount already. You've just talked about papers
being submitted to Parliament. What are you working
on now? What next? What's the next big thing
for you and your research? As I mentioned, my
background is in chemical engineering, and now
I work both between chemical engineering and
the Centre for Environmental Policy. My PhD was
quite technical. I was in the lab for like 10
or more hours every day, just, you know, doing
in front of my reactor, doing a lot of analysis.
And what I'm doing now is a lot more at the so
it's it's research and then but also the interface
between policy and action just kind of how do
we move everything i've done or know into real
world impact and i really like this quote that
the institute of molecular science and engineering
at imperial uses i'm sorry if i say it wrong
but it was something along the lines of you know
it's not enough to make uh simple molecules we
must make them work in a complex world That's
kind of where I'm at now and looking at it also
from a global perspective, from a systems perspective,
zooming out a bit. So maybe it's not perfect
in every part of the chain, but it's good enough.
And so how does that work from a systems perspective
and a global perspective? So making it work,
making what you're working on, making it work.
Because throughout the interview, you have talked
as well as talking about the community and that
whole global action. You have said a couple of
times, having a plan. So it's turning that policy
and all that work into that plan and making it
make change. You have been absolutely a perfect
guest. Thank you very much, Nadeem. There can
be no doubt that climate change is the biggest
challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce
greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming.
Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our
lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate
change. Today we must use our collective wisdom
to deliver on our climate commitments. Today
we work for tomorrow's world. Please don't forget
to subscribe to our podcast channels and tell
us what you think and would always be interested
in your ideas. Email us at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. Thank you again to Nadine Mustafa for
joining us today. Thank you. Thank you so much
for having me. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue. a podcast from Salix. For more information
about our work and to find more content, please
visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.