This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue.
Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our
collective challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and
I believe that the best way to communicate a
message is by being passionate about what you
are talking about. Through that passion, I believe
you take people with you and create action using
your influence to make change and make a difference.
Today, I have my super guest here, Anna Turns.
Anna is a published author, journalist and lecturer.
Anna studied biology at university and today
specialises in all things sustainability, from
climate change and renewable energy to marine
issues, food and farming. It's Anna's job as
a communicator to inspire all of us into climate
action. Anna has worked in the media for more
than two decades, from TV production to magazine
journalism and broadcast and radio broadcasting.
As a freelance environmental journalist working
at The Conversation, she has also regularly contributed
to many national publications, including The
Guardian, BBC Future, New Scientist and Positive
News with a focus on solutions. Her first book,
Go Toxic Free, Easy and Sustainable Ways to Reduce
Chemical Pollution, was published in 2022. And
Anna lives in Devon -by -the -Sea with her family.
I'm delighted to have Anna Turnes with me today.
Thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting
me, Hannah. Thank you. Right, moving straight
into our questions. Anna, can you tell us, start
off by telling us a little bit about yourself
and your career. Have you always wanted to work
in the media? And I'd like to know whether today
you consider yourself as being a journalist,
educator, author, or an environmental activist,
or all of the above. So, since I studied biology,
I knew I wanted to work somewhere in that field
and I actually considered doing a PhD but I decided
I wanted to know lots about lots of different
things and ask lots of questions rather than
know a lot about one specialism. The part I loved
most about my degree was also the writing essays,
the storytelling and the being really curious
and so I've managed to do that through my whole
career. whether that is wildlife TV or magazine
journalism, radio, storytelling, all of those
aspects. And now I'm actually kind of come full
circle. So I'm working for the conversation.
I'm working directly with academics at universities
and helping them tell their stories about their
research. So I think what's always driven me
and what's always given me that purpose, whichever
media, whichever form I'm working in, is this
want to. look at what's actually happening in
response to the problem so we've obviously facing
a lot of different crises at the moment in terms
of pollution nature biodiversity climate everything
um some people call it the poly crisis just to
kind of sum it up in one in well one fell swoop
and actually that can be really overwhelming
so many people disengage from from content from
mainstream media so i really love the challenge
of trying to find creative ways to make that
inspiring and make that um bring a pull factor
into that and kind of get people over here to
look at what's actually happening um in terms
of whether i consider myself um an activist no
it's a really tricky thing and i think this question
is is a really important one for all communicators
to think about at different times i have put
myself into the story and become part of the
the mission i suppose like i have done my own
environmental campaign a few years ago with my
daughter i ran a campaign called plastic clever
sulcan which was part of kids against plastic
a national initiative um and that was brilliant
and i used my journalism to try and help amplify
the the kind of the storytelling around that
but as a journalist i feel very strongly that
my job is to report on what's actually happening
i suppose i feel like i've got a responsibility
to lead by example so if I know something is
going to be better for the environment and and
better for society I try and do my best to do
it I'm very much not perfect but if I have seen
the evidence for something I I do my best to
to practice what I preach although I'm not hopefully
preaching actually um I think in terms of my
own journalism I really have a strong purpose
in terms of wanting to amplify those solutions
so I'm not just reporting on the problem I'm
very much selecting and seeking out stories of
progress change makers who are doing amazing
things to try and highlight what is possible
and to give a bit of hope I suppose to show that
actually it's not all doom and gloom so in that
way maybe some people might think oh that's my
sort of form of activism But I wouldn't say I'm
an activist. I'm not campaigning for something.
It's all very evidence -based. It's rigorous
reporting. And I'm, yeah, it's more complex than
that, I think. I think it's a very blurred line.
There's a spectrum. And I think I'm not writing
opinion pieces. I'm not campaigning in the pieces
I write, but there's a... Yeah, there's a definite
strong sense of purpose, I would say, in what
I do. Indeed, because I first actually came in
contact with you when I was working for a large
London newspaper. And I had launched a couple
of big campaigns, one of which was plastics,
plastic free, as well as clean air. And that's
how we first met, if you like, was because I
commissioned you to write quite a few pieces,
actually, for the plastic free. And your passion
came across incredibly strongly at that time.
And just having this wealth of information at
your fingertips, but such well -researched work.
So it was part of a bigger campaign that we were
running, but you were able to contribute to that
in a very informed, knowledgeable way and helping
us to talk about those issues, obviously plastics.
as well as clean air. But you talked very much
there about the huge challenges we face, because
we are facing huge challenges on the climate
change agenda. And governments are somewhat distracted.
We've got geopolitical strife, we've got food
crisis, we've got cost of living crisis, we've
got war going on. But is there a joined up approach,
do you think? when we're talking about climate
crisis for businesses, governments and us all.
And that's you and me. Yes, absolutely. And I
do think it's really interesting looking at those
three parts because so much of the narrative
focuses on individual action. And we can only
do so much as citizens, consumers, homeowners,
whatever. We can do a lot as a collective. But
actually, we need those other parts. So we need
the government. We need the legislation. We need
regulation. That's very, very slow to move. It's
more like a kind of cargo ship. Whereas I think
business is a bit more like a small powerboat,
maybe. It can pivot much more easily. It's got
more flexibility. And I think business is really,
really key to shifting the landscape and to demanding
more change at scale. And also responding to
that collective call for action from consumers,
from citizens. In all of those three parts of
the system, I think we need a huge amount of
accountability. So at the moment, there is a
lot of greenwashing business. There is a lot
of smoke and mirrors in regulation. There's lots
of loopholes. There's lots of confusion. And
we don't, I don't think, have a really clear...
cohesive approach often things change every four
years when the government changes and we're starting
from scratch again we need to have a really non
-partisan long -term shift in things so we can
actually really build on that momentum and make
systemic change that is going to last i think
it's interesting anna sorry just to take you
back to that business you mentioned business
because i know that you've done you do a series
of 60 second podcast stories don't you and you
talk about the consumer and the relationship
they have with business and the way that we make
choices and the way that people should question
business, question what you're buying. So when
organisations or businesses are making claims
about, you said the word greenwashing, but when
businesses are making claims about this is eco
-friendly or it's nature -inspired or biodegradable,
all of those, that's something. that you've just
touched upon there is questioning and doing that
quite robustly. And I think that's where my science
background comes in. It's like, I want to know
what the proof is. Anyone can put any marketing
language on any packaging. And actually a lot
of those words that you've just mentioned are
not regulated. So it's not illegal for them to
say something is eco -friendly, but it might
not be. So what I'm sort of calling for is a
little bit more. confidence to really call that
out and and check and look at what the verification
is for those claims look at any certification
and holding those retailers those businesses
that industry to account is going to make them
ultimately more transparent because they're going
to have to do a little bit more legwork to to
prove what the ingredients are what the supply
chain involves where things come from how something
was made and And I think that empowers us, that
empowers us to know more and to then make more
informed choices. And also, it's a really good
way of supporting the businesses and the people
that are doing a lot more and going further to
make things more truly sustainable. Okay, so
when you write, we've talked about inspiring
action on climate change, but What about, there's
a selection of people, there is no doubt that
the climate is getting warmer, but there are
a selection of people feeling that, oh, someone
else will sort this climate problem out. It's
not our problem. Governments are going to sort
it out. Businesses are going to sort it out.
So by making it everybody's challenge, you're
asking, you're giving the responsibility back
to us, aren't you? You're saying... it's our
time to question and challenge everything. But
a lot of people are just not doing that, are
they? A lot of people do think it's someone else
has got to have their head around this. Yeah,
so I do think it is our leader's responsibility.
I don't think it's our responsibility, but I
think we can catalyse change. I think we can
accelerate things and speed things up and support
business in speeding that up as well. I think...
doing nothing to me is not really an option.
But I know a lot of people, this is not on their
agenda. And it might be because they are working
three jobs or trying to get food on the table.
And I totally, totally get that. Because this
is part of my job, and I feel really strongly
about it. I do talk about it a lot with my friends
and with family and with colleagues. And I think
even just having those conversations is a really
important first step in terms of bringing that
awareness and with that that need for accountability
so I don't think it is down to each and every
one of us solely I think we have a role to play
and I think by holding business and governments
to account we can make sure they're going to
do the right thing even if it is as simple as
voting for better leaders or moving banks switching
banks and putting your money somewhere that you
know is going to be invested in ethical things
That's an incredibly powerful thing, much more
so than turning off light switches and recycling
plastic bottles, because it has that really wide
impact and also over a long time as well. So
I also don't think blame is very useful. I think
we're all in this system. We all live in this
system. We don't want to give up our current
lifestyles. We want to we want to kind of carry
on as we are. create a greener, fairer future
that is better. And we all have a role to play
in that. And talking of the wider media coverage
of climate change, we switch on the news, open
a website, news website, climate, there's some
disaster, isn't there, wherever it is, it's close
to home or across the world. How do you, what's
your view of how, of the tone of that coverage?
could be easy to catastrophize the issue, but
it's that balance, isn't it? Telling the story
without catastrophizing, because once you start
catastrophizing, people start to think it's not
just, it's somebody else's problem, but it's
too late. I can't do anything about this. So
it's gone beyond our control. What do you think
about the media coverage in general? I think
it's really mixed. And I think we could all be
a bit more conscious about how we choose which
media we're taking in. It's very easy, especially
with social media, to kind of be bombarded by
particular messages or algorithms, for example.
And there is a lot of brilliant media out there,
but there's also a lot of inaccurate media and
also very negative, sort of disempowering media.
I do think we need the bad news. I think we need
the real stories of what's actually happening.
And I think in the last maybe decade, it's become
a lot more apparent that this is happening right
now, right here. We've got floods in the UK,
for example. We've got the fires in LA. We've
got stuff happening. It's not in this far -flung
place. It's not just about polar bears. It's
immediate and it's here and it's real. But I
do think that the media has sometimes got its
own agenda. You look at who is funding the media
and you think, OK, what's going on behind the
scenes? I think a lot of listeners and consumers
of news might not necessarily be aware of what's
going on behind the scenes in terms of who is
funding the media, what that agenda might be.
So I think critical thinking is really, really,
really key. But I also think solutions journalism
or constructive journalism, as it's also known,
could be a lot more embedded into everything
that we consume in our media diets. And this
isn't to say, here's a solution, here's a silver
bullet, this is going to fix everything. It's
very much still very critical, still analysing
a response to a problem, but looking at the progress
and looking at how that might be scalable, how
that might be adaptable. What are the lessons
we can learn from this trial of whether it's
EVs in Oslo, for example, like looking at the
whole picture and thinking, OK, why is that working
in that context? What can we learn from that?
And how could we change something here, perhaps?
I mean, it could be anything. It's not just environmental
things either. It's social problems too. I do
think that that could be done in a much more
comprehensive way. So still quite newsy and not
necessarily just a kind of a solutions type story.
But just having that lens, having that way of
telling a story can just be a bit more uplifting,
a bit more hopeful. And it's shining a light
on what is being done already. It's not just
looking at there's a problem, we're all doomed
and leaving people hanging there. Because actually
you're left in this limbo without anywhere to
go, without a call to action. I just try and
be really curious about, OK, we've got a problem.
What's happening and what are people doing about
it? Who are the organisations that are taking
action? Who are the people on the front line
who are most at risk, who are doing something
about this? And that's often where the best stories
are, I think. Exactly. And you talk there about
young people as well. I think you mentioned young
people now. And you lecture, you've worked with
university students. And they're certainly not
sitting on their hands on this issue, are they?
They are looking for solutions. The young climate
activists, you know, are looking for, we are
talking about solutions. It's interesting to
see how the young climate activists are being
portrayed in the media. How do you think they
are perceived? So I think a lot of pressure is
put on them and I don't, it doesn't sit right
with me. So I think it's brilliant that, people
of all ages are calling things out, whether it
is younger people, older people, scientists,
there's a whole range of real activists, which
is brilliant. I think when people say, oh, my
hope is with the younger generation, I don't
think we've got time to wait for them to become
the leaders of tomorrow. And it's not their problem
in the first, it's not their, they're not the
cause of the problem in the first place. So while
they are perhaps kind of bringing focus to the
issue, I think we need to hurry up and make decisions.
The leaders in control at the moment and the
business owners are the ones that need to be
really sort of thinking, okay, what are we going
to do now that's going to improve things for
generations to come? I do think there is still
a mix of engagement. So I'm not actually lecturing
anymore. I lectured for a few years, part -time
alongside my journalism. I do still do media
training with university academics through the
conversation. And so I still do some things and
some guest lectures. I still think it's a completely
mixed bag. So I don't think all young people
are super engaged, just as all older people are
not. I think there's still a real spectrum. So
I think how it's portrayed in the media is not
necessarily fair all the time. So there's a lot
of stereotypes and there's a lot of generalizations.
So I think it's just about context and looking
at, sort of zooming out and looking at the whole
picture. I think that's really important. So
change, we've mentioned the word change quite
a few times and you're very interested in the
psychology of that. And going back to the public's
appetite for change, we're going to have to make
some key lifestyle changes, aren't we? I think
you're still a member of the Guild of Food Writers.
Yes. Yes, you're still a member. So, I mean,
we're going to have to make changes to our diet,
for example. That's just one of the changes.
Are we going to change? Can we change that much?
Can we eat less meat? Can we buy less? I mean,
we're buying more than we've ever bought before.
We're consuming more, whether it's clothing,
food, home style, bits and pieces. We are big
consumers, aren't we? Far more than we were 15,
20 years ago. Totally. And I think that's a really
interesting question because yes we need to change
but so many of the changes when it comes to becoming
more sustainable in inverted commas are about
not doing something or doing something less and
what I would love to see is more like let's eat
more vegetables let's eat more seasonal food
let's eat more of this not let's eat less of
this because that's quite constricting and soon
as you say don't do something to someone it's
like oh you're taking something away from me
and actually you think It's going to save you
money. It's going to be healthier for you. It's
going to be better for the environment as a kind
of side benefit. But it doesn't necessarily have
to be that, oh, you've got to choose the worthy
thing. And I think when you sell it as a positive
in other ways as well, I think it's more attractive
to people. So I don't know, talking about driving
less, for example. If you can get on your bike
or you can walk to your bus stop, you're going
to have more fitness embedded in your daily routine
and you're going to be healthier. Your blood
pressure is going to go down probably and you're
going to feel better. So doing things that are
joyful and that make your life better now and
hopefully are better for the planet too, are
going to be much easier to sell to people, I
think. And we'll, finding ways to kind of build
connection into those changes in terms of people
connection, connection to nature, I think is
much more viable in the long term, I think, in
terms of what we can keep going. If I change
a habit and I hook it onto another existing routine,
it's going to be much easier to make that happen
every day. If I do that and then make it something
I really enjoy. I'm going to definitely want
to keep doing it. So I've had a streak of doing
yoga every day for 120 days, which I'm really
proud of. And I haven't missed a single day because
I really love it and because I know it's good
for me. So if we can think of it in terms of
positive solutions rather than inhibiting people,
I think it's just in terms of the framing of
how we communicate things, having a better future.
is a very exciting thing. Having a greener, more
sustainable supply chain, having better working
rights, having less pollution, all of these things
that come with net zero and with a better future,
we're not going to regret doing that. Yes, exactly.
I mean, that's a whole other conversation, isn't
it? Better working practices, better, fairer
wages. better working conditions, and it all
has an impact, doesn't it? And it's all around
this climate conversation. But just going back
to your own environment, because you live in
one of the most beautiful parts of the country,
and that's Devon. How has that impacted? How
has living in that environment impacted your
career and your writing? Because you mentioned
earlier, make Sulcombe more plastic clever, and
you launched that campaign with your daughter.
And that was that was around plastic. So how
has your own environment inspired you on this
journey? So I grew up in Landlocked Bedfordshire
and ended up in Devon for six months and have
been here more than 20 years. So I really have
this strong appreciation of I realise I'm really
lucky to be by the coast. I have a really, really
strong connection with the sea. If I have to
go away for work, I really miss it and I really
miss. seeing the horizon and just it keeps me
really grounded and i see real value i know that
there's real value in in having it there and
i'm very lucky to have it because i love it so
much i have this really strong urge to protect
it which is why my daughter and i set up that
campaign a few years ago called plastic clever
sulkum we could see um so much plastic on the
beaches as loads of people did around the country
at the time but we live in a really like a tourist
hot spot and it felt like no one was really joining
up what was happening on land to what was happening
at sea. And so we tried to affect change, not
by blaming anyone, not by telling people off,
but by saying, look, we could do this. We were
getting people involved. It was very much kind
of grassroots, bottom -up approach, which really,
really worked in our small town. And it had a
really, really brilliant, long -lasting impact,
actually. And I'm really conscious of keeping
that strong nature connection and ocean connection
going with my two children so they they don't
know any different they've grown up here they're
very very lucky um but I want them to really
appreciate it and to really care for it and and
realize that it can it can bring so many benefits
for our well -being as well as um yeah emotionally
mental physical all of those things As well as
we also have a duty to care for the patch of
land we live on and the patch of whether it's
coastline or inland, wherever we have a duty
of care and a responsibility to do something
about it. And I try and really ingrain that in
our lives. So, for example, before school, I
take my son to the beach and he's super aware
of the tides because sometimes there's no beach
and sometimes there's a huge beach. And it's
just kind of embedded in his. in his knowing
i suppose which i think is really really magical
and i hope that stays with him for a long long
time i go into schools um often enough to look
at some of the projects that we work with and
the children are incredibly optimistic and aware
of their environment now i'm going to ask you
this question because i do tend to ask us this
question i think i probably know the answer um
you've talked so much about solutions and being
positive So would you say you're an optimist
or a pessimist? So I would say I'm a stubborn
optimist. I don't think we've got it all sussed.
I think we have got a very long way to go. But
I use my frustration to, I kind of try and channel
my frustration into motivation, basically, to
kind of do something about it. So I'm not resting
on my laurels. I don't think I can sit back and
do nothing and wait for this all to happen and
sort itself out. We very much need to keep our
foot on the pedal and keep working really hard
to push for better and push for change. But I
do feel optimistic generally. Super. So you're
not sitting on your laurels, as you said. So
you're a successful published author. You work
for The Conversations as well. You're a writer.
You've been a teacher. What next for your career?
Where do your ambitions lie next? My ambition.
So at the moment, I am doing a fellowship with
the Solutions Journalism Network and the European
Journalism Centre. And it's all about shifting
climate journalism across whole newsrooms. So
my mission is for climate to not just be an environment
story and for it to be on every page of our website,
potentially in some form. So not necessarily
headline news, but for there to be. climate awareness
in all that we do and so I'm working on various
projects within this fellowship and I'm also
part of the Reuters Institute run the Oxford
Climate Journalism Network I'm also doing a fellowship
with them at the moment and that is very much
about really being at the front line of the latest
knowledge about all this and thinking about how
to amplify that how to how to bring that into
all the work that we do so I really want to make
my climate journalism better but also to help
other journalists make their climate journalism
better. Ideally I'd love to come full circle
and bring that back to the education stage in
terms of empowering all young journalists and
young communicators to have the confidence to
do this more and to know what questions to ask.
We don't need to know all the answers we just
need to know which experts to ask and what to
ask them. But yeah, that's my vision for the
future, for climate to not be an environment
story, for it to be an everything story. Thank
you. So we're really going to be following your
progress and asking, the way you talk about media
and the young journalists and asking those questions
and being authentic about those questions as
well. Yes. And really asking the difficult, the
really difficult issues and keeping it in the
news. As you say, not necessarily the headline
news, but a part of that conversation every day.
So there is progress because we obviously need
to make it. We've got some tough targets to meet,
haven't we? So thank you very much to Anna. It's
actually fascinating talking to you. It's been
wonderful to have you as my guest today and for
providing such insight. There can be no doubt
that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. today we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions to slow global warming today we
must act for tomorrow adjusting our lifestyles
to current and future impacts of climate change
today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments today we work for
tomorrow's world please do Email us with your
ideas. Email podcast at salixfinance .co .uk.
We'd love to know what you think. Please do subscribe
to our podcast channels. But I'd like to say
a huge thanks to our guest today. And that's
Anna Turns for taking the time to speak to us.
Thank you very much, Anna. Thank you for having
me. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information
about our work. And to find more content, please
visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.