WEBVTT 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:10.490 This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast 00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:14.490 from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue. 00:00:14.550 --> 00:00:17.070 Welcome to Delivering on Climate Change, our 00:00:17.070 --> 00:00:19.710 collective challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and 00:00:19.710 --> 00:00:21.649 I believe that the best way to communicate a 00:00:21.649 --> 00:00:24.030 message is by being passionate about what you 00:00:24.030 --> 00:00:26.530 are talking about. Through that passion, I believe 00:00:26.530 --> 00:00:29.210 you take people with you and create action using 00:00:29.210 --> 00:00:32.409 your influence to make change and make a difference. 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.600 Today, I have my super guest here, Anna Turns. 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.280 Anna is a published author, journalist and lecturer. 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.740 Anna studied biology at university and today 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:46.759 specialises in all things sustainability, from 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.359 climate change and renewable energy to marine 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.020 issues, food and farming. It's Anna's job as 00:00:53.020 --> 00:00:56.259 a communicator to inspire all of us into climate 00:00:56.259 --> 00:00:59.500 action. Anna has worked in the media for more 00:00:59.500 --> 00:01:02.439 than two decades, from TV production to magazine 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:05.000 journalism and broadcast and radio broadcasting. 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:07.980 As a freelance environmental journalist working 00:01:07.980 --> 00:01:11.540 at The Conversation, she has also regularly contributed 00:01:11.540 --> 00:01:14.319 to many national publications, including The 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:17.239 Guardian, BBC Future, New Scientist and Positive 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.140 News with a focus on solutions. Her first book, 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:24.700 Go Toxic Free, Easy and Sustainable Ways to Reduce 00:01:24.700 --> 00:01:28.340 Chemical Pollution, was published in 2022. And 00:01:28.340 --> 00:01:31.400 Anna lives in Devon -by -the -Sea with her family. 00:01:31.540 --> 00:01:34.260 I'm delighted to have Anna Turnes with me today. 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.310 Thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting 00:01:37.310 --> 00:01:40.349 me, Hannah. Thank you. Right, moving straight 00:01:40.349 --> 00:01:43.069 into our questions. Anna, can you tell us, start 00:01:43.069 --> 00:01:44.969 off by telling us a little bit about yourself 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:47.569 and your career. Have you always wanted to work 00:01:47.569 --> 00:01:50.129 in the media? And I'd like to know whether today 00:01:50.129 --> 00:01:52.090 you consider yourself as being a journalist, 00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:55.349 educator, author, or an environmental activist, 00:01:55.489 --> 00:02:01.950 or all of the above. So, since I studied biology, 00:02:02.170 --> 00:02:06.189 I knew I wanted to work somewhere in that field 00:02:06.189 --> 00:02:09.710 and I actually considered doing a PhD but I decided 00:02:09.710 --> 00:02:11.930 I wanted to know lots about lots of different 00:02:11.930 --> 00:02:14.449 things and ask lots of questions rather than 00:02:14.449 --> 00:02:19.930 know a lot about one specialism. The part I loved 00:02:19.930 --> 00:02:21.909 most about my degree was also the writing essays, 00:02:22.129 --> 00:02:26.449 the storytelling and the being really curious 00:02:26.449 --> 00:02:28.189 and so I've managed to do that through my whole 00:02:28.189 --> 00:02:31.840 career. whether that is wildlife TV or magazine 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.599 journalism, radio, storytelling, all of those 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.680 aspects. And now I'm actually kind of come full 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:40.180 circle. So I'm working for the conversation. 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:43.000 I'm working directly with academics at universities 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.520 and helping them tell their stories about their 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.560 research. So I think what's always driven me 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.280 and what's always given me that purpose, whichever 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.340 media, whichever form I'm working in, is this 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:59.560 want to. look at what's actually happening in 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.379 response to the problem so we've obviously facing 00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:05.539 a lot of different crises at the moment in terms 00:03:05.539 --> 00:03:09.639 of pollution nature biodiversity climate everything 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:12.939 um some people call it the poly crisis just to 00:03:12.939 --> 00:03:15.659 kind of sum it up in one in well one fell swoop 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.199 and actually that can be really overwhelming 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:21.599 so many people disengage from from content from 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.659 mainstream media so i really love the challenge 00:03:24.659 --> 00:03:28.090 of trying to find creative ways to make that 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:31.810 inspiring and make that um bring a pull factor 00:03:31.810 --> 00:03:34.289 into that and kind of get people over here to 00:03:34.289 --> 00:03:37.330 look at what's actually happening um in terms 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:41.030 of whether i consider myself um an activist no 00:03:41.030 --> 00:03:44.590 it's a really tricky thing and i think this question 00:03:44.590 --> 00:03:47.330 is is a really important one for all communicators 00:03:47.330 --> 00:03:50.449 to think about at different times i have put 00:03:50.449 --> 00:03:53.129 myself into the story and become part of the 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.020 the mission i suppose like i have done my own 00:03:56.020 --> 00:03:59.280 environmental campaign a few years ago with my 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.300 daughter i ran a campaign called plastic clever 00:04:01.300 --> 00:04:03.860 sulcan which was part of kids against plastic 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:07.180 a national initiative um and that was brilliant 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:09.419 and i used my journalism to try and help amplify 00:04:09.419 --> 00:04:12.180 the the kind of the storytelling around that 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:15.580 but as a journalist i feel very strongly that 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:17.540 my job is to report on what's actually happening 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:21.860 i suppose i feel like i've got a responsibility 00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:27.000 to lead by example so if I know something is 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.139 going to be better for the environment and and 00:04:29.139 --> 00:04:31.420 better for society I try and do my best to do 00:04:31.420 --> 00:04:35.779 it I'm very much not perfect but if I have seen 00:04:35.779 --> 00:04:39.560 the evidence for something I I do my best to 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.860 to practice what I preach although I'm not hopefully 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:47.420 preaching actually um I think in terms of my 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:52.160 own journalism I really have a strong purpose 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.560 in terms of wanting to amplify those solutions 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.819 so I'm not just reporting on the problem I'm 00:04:57.819 --> 00:05:02.540 very much selecting and seeking out stories of 00:05:02.540 --> 00:05:04.360 progress change makers who are doing amazing 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.600 things to try and highlight what is possible 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:11.180 and to give a bit of hope I suppose to show that 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:14.319 actually it's not all doom and gloom so in that 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.540 way maybe some people might think oh that's my 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:19.949 sort of form of activism But I wouldn't say I'm 00:05:19.949 --> 00:05:22.250 an activist. I'm not campaigning for something. 00:05:22.410 --> 00:05:26.050 It's all very evidence -based. It's rigorous 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:33.009 reporting. And I'm, yeah, it's more complex than 00:05:33.009 --> 00:05:35.850 that, I think. I think it's a very blurred line. 00:05:35.949 --> 00:05:39.230 There's a spectrum. And I think I'm not writing 00:05:39.230 --> 00:05:44.610 opinion pieces. I'm not campaigning in the pieces 00:05:44.610 --> 00:05:47.220 I write, but there's a... Yeah, there's a definite 00:05:47.220 --> 00:05:50.040 strong sense of purpose, I would say, in what 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:52.339 I do. Indeed, because I first actually came in 00:05:52.339 --> 00:05:55.120 contact with you when I was working for a large 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:57.939 London newspaper. And I had launched a couple 00:05:57.939 --> 00:06:00.079 of big campaigns, one of which was plastics, 00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:03.459 plastic free, as well as clean air. And that's 00:06:03.459 --> 00:06:07.220 how we first met, if you like, was because I 00:06:07.220 --> 00:06:11.480 commissioned you to write quite a few pieces, 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.990 actually, for the plastic free. And your passion 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:19.129 came across incredibly strongly at that time. 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:23.129 And just having this wealth of information at 00:06:23.129 --> 00:06:25.569 your fingertips, but such well -researched work. 00:06:26.069 --> 00:06:28.910 So it was part of a bigger campaign that we were 00:06:28.910 --> 00:06:31.329 running, but you were able to contribute to that 00:06:31.329 --> 00:06:35.269 in a very informed, knowledgeable way and helping 00:06:35.269 --> 00:06:38.370 us to talk about those issues, obviously plastics. 00:06:39.149 --> 00:06:42.490 as well as clean air. But you talked very much 00:06:42.490 --> 00:06:45.189 there about the huge challenges we face, because 00:06:45.189 --> 00:06:47.129 we are facing huge challenges on the climate 00:06:47.129 --> 00:06:52.449 change agenda. And governments are somewhat distracted. 00:06:52.829 --> 00:06:55.230 We've got geopolitical strife, we've got food 00:06:55.230 --> 00:06:58.029 crisis, we've got cost of living crisis, we've 00:06:58.029 --> 00:07:01.589 got war going on. But is there a joined up approach, 00:07:01.629 --> 00:07:03.709 do you think? when we're talking about climate 00:07:03.709 --> 00:07:07.509 crisis for businesses, governments and us all. 00:07:07.629 --> 00:07:10.990 And that's you and me. Yes, absolutely. And I 00:07:10.990 --> 00:07:13.689 do think it's really interesting looking at those 00:07:13.689 --> 00:07:17.170 three parts because so much of the narrative 00:07:17.170 --> 00:07:20.329 focuses on individual action. And we can only 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:23.389 do so much as citizens, consumers, homeowners, 00:07:23.610 --> 00:07:27.769 whatever. We can do a lot as a collective. But 00:07:27.769 --> 00:07:29.870 actually, we need those other parts. So we need 00:07:29.870 --> 00:07:31.870 the government. We need the legislation. We need 00:07:31.870 --> 00:07:35.689 regulation. That's very, very slow to move. It's 00:07:35.689 --> 00:07:38.389 more like a kind of cargo ship. Whereas I think 00:07:38.389 --> 00:07:44.129 business is a bit more like a small powerboat, 00:07:44.170 --> 00:07:47.250 maybe. It can pivot much more easily. It's got 00:07:47.250 --> 00:07:50.329 more flexibility. And I think business is really, 00:07:50.389 --> 00:07:54.009 really key to shifting the landscape and to demanding 00:07:54.009 --> 00:07:58.259 more change at scale. And also responding to 00:07:58.259 --> 00:08:01.819 that collective call for action from consumers, 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.959 from citizens. In all of those three parts of 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:10.120 the system, I think we need a huge amount of 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:13.199 accountability. So at the moment, there is a 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.560 lot of greenwashing business. There is a lot 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:17.779 of smoke and mirrors in regulation. There's lots 00:08:17.779 --> 00:08:21.680 of loopholes. There's lots of confusion. And 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:24.680 we don't, I don't think, have a really clear... 00:08:25.339 --> 00:08:28.740 cohesive approach often things change every four 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:30.420 years when the government changes and we're starting 00:08:30.420 --> 00:08:33.100 from scratch again we need to have a really non 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:36.220 -partisan long -term shift in things so we can 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:38.600 actually really build on that momentum and make 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.440 systemic change that is going to last i think 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.620 it's interesting anna sorry just to take you 00:08:44.620 --> 00:08:46.320 back to that business you mentioned business 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.860 because i know that you've done you do a series 00:08:48.860 --> 00:08:52.440 of 60 second podcast stories don't you and you 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:57.070 talk about the consumer and the relationship 00:08:57.070 --> 00:09:00.029 they have with business and the way that we make 00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:03.590 choices and the way that people should question 00:09:03.590 --> 00:09:06.509 business, question what you're buying. So when 00:09:06.509 --> 00:09:08.950 organisations or businesses are making claims 00:09:08.950 --> 00:09:12.590 about, you said the word greenwashing, but when 00:09:12.590 --> 00:09:14.669 businesses are making claims about this is eco 00:09:14.669 --> 00:09:17.590 -friendly or it's nature -inspired or biodegradable, 00:09:17.629 --> 00:09:21.769 all of those, that's something. that you've just 00:09:21.769 --> 00:09:24.809 touched upon there is questioning and doing that 00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:28.710 quite robustly. And I think that's where my science 00:09:28.710 --> 00:09:30.629 background comes in. It's like, I want to know 00:09:30.629 --> 00:09:33.529 what the proof is. Anyone can put any marketing 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:36.250 language on any packaging. And actually a lot 00:09:36.250 --> 00:09:38.009 of those words that you've just mentioned are 00:09:38.009 --> 00:09:40.409 not regulated. So it's not illegal for them to 00:09:40.409 --> 00:09:41.990 say something is eco -friendly, but it might 00:09:41.990 --> 00:09:45.970 not be. So what I'm sort of calling for is a 00:09:45.970 --> 00:09:49.980 little bit more. confidence to really call that 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:53.399 out and and check and look at what the verification 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:55.820 is for those claims look at any certification 00:09:55.820 --> 00:09:59.100 and holding those retailers those businesses 00:09:59.100 --> 00:10:02.340 that industry to account is going to make them 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:04.659 ultimately more transparent because they're going 00:10:04.659 --> 00:10:07.460 to have to do a little bit more legwork to to 00:10:07.460 --> 00:10:11.179 prove what the ingredients are what the supply 00:10:11.179 --> 00:10:14.279 chain involves where things come from how something 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:17.669 was made and And I think that empowers us, that 00:10:17.669 --> 00:10:21.009 empowers us to know more and to then make more 00:10:21.009 --> 00:10:24.169 informed choices. And also, it's a really good 00:10:24.169 --> 00:10:27.730 way of supporting the businesses and the people 00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:32.730 that are doing a lot more and going further to 00:10:32.730 --> 00:10:37.149 make things more truly sustainable. Okay, so 00:10:37.149 --> 00:10:38.870 when you write, we've talked about inspiring 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:43.159 action on climate change, but What about, there's 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:47.120 a selection of people, there is no doubt that 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.200 the climate is getting warmer, but there are 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.820 a selection of people feeling that, oh, someone 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:54.519 else will sort this climate problem out. It's 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.179 not our problem. Governments are going to sort 00:10:56.179 --> 00:10:57.899 it out. Businesses are going to sort it out. 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:03.919 So by making it everybody's challenge, you're 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:05.799 asking, you're giving the responsibility back 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.679 to us, aren't you? You're saying... it's our 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.820 time to question and challenge everything. But 00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:14.500 a lot of people are just not doing that, are 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:17.240 they? A lot of people do think it's someone else 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.320 has got to have their head around this. Yeah, 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.940 so I do think it is our leader's responsibility. 00:11:24.220 --> 00:11:26.860 I don't think it's our responsibility, but I 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:29.019 think we can catalyse change. I think we can 00:11:29.019 --> 00:11:32.580 accelerate things and speed things up and support 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:36.600 business in speeding that up as well. I think... 00:11:36.889 --> 00:11:39.509 doing nothing to me is not really an option. 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:42.750 But I know a lot of people, this is not on their 00:11:42.750 --> 00:11:47.129 agenda. And it might be because they are working 00:11:47.129 --> 00:11:49.409 three jobs or trying to get food on the table. 00:11:49.490 --> 00:11:52.769 And I totally, totally get that. Because this 00:11:52.769 --> 00:11:54.590 is part of my job, and I feel really strongly 00:11:54.590 --> 00:11:57.990 about it. I do talk about it a lot with my friends 00:11:57.990 --> 00:12:01.250 and with family and with colleagues. And I think 00:12:01.250 --> 00:12:04.429 even just having those conversations is a really 00:12:04.429 --> 00:12:07.440 important first step in terms of bringing that 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.539 awareness and with that that need for accountability 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:14.860 so I don't think it is down to each and every 00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:17.840 one of us solely I think we have a role to play 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.340 and I think by holding business and governments 00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:22.940 to account we can make sure they're going to 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.440 do the right thing even if it is as simple as 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.600 voting for better leaders or moving banks switching 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.279 banks and putting your money somewhere that you 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.080 know is going to be invested in ethical things 00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:38.220 That's an incredibly powerful thing, much more 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:41.259 so than turning off light switches and recycling 00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:44.480 plastic bottles, because it has that really wide 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:49.179 impact and also over a long time as well. So 00:12:49.179 --> 00:12:54.940 I also don't think blame is very useful. I think 00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:57.220 we're all in this system. We all live in this 00:12:57.220 --> 00:12:59.460 system. We don't want to give up our current 00:12:59.460 --> 00:13:02.019 lifestyles. We want to we want to kind of carry 00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:07.240 on as we are. create a greener, fairer future 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:10.620 that is better. And we all have a role to play 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.440 in that. And talking of the wider media coverage 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:18.480 of climate change, we switch on the news, open 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.000 a website, news website, climate, there's some 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.100 disaster, isn't there, wherever it is, it's close 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:30.559 to home or across the world. How do you, what's 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.399 your view of how, of the tone of that coverage? 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.940 could be easy to catastrophize the issue, but 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:42.720 it's that balance, isn't it? Telling the story 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.779 without catastrophizing, because once you start 00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:47.899 catastrophizing, people start to think it's not 00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:50.580 just, it's somebody else's problem, but it's 00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:55.120 too late. I can't do anything about this. So 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:00.120 it's gone beyond our control. What do you think 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.490 about the media coverage in general? I think 00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:08.889 it's really mixed. And I think we could all be 00:14:08.889 --> 00:14:10.870 a bit more conscious about how we choose which 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:14.350 media we're taking in. It's very easy, especially 00:14:14.350 --> 00:14:16.490 with social media, to kind of be bombarded by 00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:19.509 particular messages or algorithms, for example. 00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:23.470 And there is a lot of brilliant media out there, 00:14:23.549 --> 00:14:26.730 but there's also a lot of inaccurate media and 00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:30.850 also very negative, sort of disempowering media. 00:14:31.629 --> 00:14:33.730 I do think we need the bad news. I think we need 00:14:33.730 --> 00:14:36.009 the real stories of what's actually happening. 00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:39.549 And I think in the last maybe decade, it's become 00:14:39.549 --> 00:14:41.450 a lot more apparent that this is happening right 00:14:41.450 --> 00:14:43.669 now, right here. We've got floods in the UK, 00:14:43.750 --> 00:14:46.509 for example. We've got the fires in LA. We've 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:49.269 got stuff happening. It's not in this far -flung 00:14:49.269 --> 00:14:51.289 place. It's not just about polar bears. It's 00:14:51.289 --> 00:14:55.149 immediate and it's here and it's real. But I 00:14:55.149 --> 00:14:59.629 do think that the media has sometimes got its 00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:02.440 own agenda. You look at who is funding the media 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:04.700 and you think, OK, what's going on behind the 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:08.879 scenes? I think a lot of listeners and consumers 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.179 of news might not necessarily be aware of what's 00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:13.919 going on behind the scenes in terms of who is 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:15.700 funding the media, what that agenda might be. 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.379 So I think critical thinking is really, really, 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:21.580 really key. But I also think solutions journalism 00:15:21.580 --> 00:15:23.980 or constructive journalism, as it's also known, 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:27.139 could be a lot more embedded into everything 00:15:27.139 --> 00:15:30.590 that we consume in our media diets. And this 00:15:30.590 --> 00:15:33.309 isn't to say, here's a solution, here's a silver 00:15:33.309 --> 00:15:35.769 bullet, this is going to fix everything. It's 00:15:35.769 --> 00:15:38.690 very much still very critical, still analysing 00:15:38.690 --> 00:15:41.929 a response to a problem, but looking at the progress 00:15:41.929 --> 00:15:44.509 and looking at how that might be scalable, how 00:15:44.509 --> 00:15:47.169 that might be adaptable. What are the lessons 00:15:47.169 --> 00:15:51.389 we can learn from this trial of whether it's 00:15:51.389 --> 00:15:53.970 EVs in Oslo, for example, like looking at the 00:15:53.970 --> 00:15:56.110 whole picture and thinking, OK, why is that working 00:15:56.110 --> 00:15:58.149 in that context? What can we learn from that? 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.840 And how could we change something here, perhaps? 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:06.120 I mean, it could be anything. It's not just environmental 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.519 things either. It's social problems too. I do 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:14.820 think that that could be done in a much more 00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:20.139 comprehensive way. So still quite newsy and not 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:24.100 necessarily just a kind of a solutions type story. 00:16:24.909 --> 00:16:28.029 But just having that lens, having that way of 00:16:28.029 --> 00:16:33.909 telling a story can just be a bit more uplifting, 00:16:33.929 --> 00:16:37.429 a bit more hopeful. And it's shining a light 00:16:37.429 --> 00:16:39.929 on what is being done already. It's not just 00:16:39.929 --> 00:16:42.309 looking at there's a problem, we're all doomed 00:16:42.309 --> 00:16:45.950 and leaving people hanging there. Because actually 00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:49.210 you're left in this limbo without anywhere to 00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:53.139 go, without a call to action. I just try and 00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:55.580 be really curious about, OK, we've got a problem. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:58.419 What's happening and what are people doing about 00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:00.340 it? Who are the organisations that are taking 00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:02.279 action? Who are the people on the front line 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.779 who are most at risk, who are doing something 00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:07.980 about this? And that's often where the best stories 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:10.380 are, I think. Exactly. And you talk there about 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.200 young people as well. I think you mentioned young 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.099 people now. And you lecture, you've worked with 00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:19.269 university students. And they're certainly not 00:17:19.269 --> 00:17:21.569 sitting on their hands on this issue, are they? 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:25.410 They are looking for solutions. The young climate 00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:27.589 activists, you know, are looking for, we are 00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:30.849 talking about solutions. It's interesting to 00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:33.250 see how the young climate activists are being 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:35.789 portrayed in the media. How do you think they 00:17:35.789 --> 00:17:41.750 are perceived? So I think a lot of pressure is 00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:44.769 put on them and I don't, it doesn't sit right 00:17:44.769 --> 00:17:47.490 with me. So I think it's brilliant that, people 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:51.950 of all ages are calling things out, whether it 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:53.869 is younger people, older people, scientists, 00:17:54.130 --> 00:17:56.990 there's a whole range of real activists, which 00:17:56.990 --> 00:18:00.910 is brilliant. I think when people say, oh, my 00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:02.789 hope is with the younger generation, I don't 00:18:02.789 --> 00:18:04.589 think we've got time to wait for them to become 00:18:04.589 --> 00:18:07.329 the leaders of tomorrow. And it's not their problem 00:18:07.329 --> 00:18:09.349 in the first, it's not their, they're not the 00:18:09.349 --> 00:18:12.690 cause of the problem in the first place. So while 00:18:12.690 --> 00:18:16.920 they are perhaps kind of bringing focus to the 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.519 issue, I think we need to hurry up and make decisions. 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.359 The leaders in control at the moment and the 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.660 business owners are the ones that need to be 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:30.039 really sort of thinking, okay, what are we going 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:31.740 to do now that's going to improve things for 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:36.940 generations to come? I do think there is still 00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:39.299 a mix of engagement. So I'm not actually lecturing 00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:42.799 anymore. I lectured for a few years, part -time 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.940 alongside my journalism. I do still do media 00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:48.039 training with university academics through the 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:51.160 conversation. And so I still do some things and 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.799 some guest lectures. I still think it's a completely 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:57.140 mixed bag. So I don't think all young people 00:18:57.140 --> 00:19:01.119 are super engaged, just as all older people are 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.380 not. I think there's still a real spectrum. So 00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:06.319 I think how it's portrayed in the media is not 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:11.720 necessarily fair all the time. So there's a lot 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.680 of stereotypes and there's a lot of generalizations. 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:19.220 So I think it's just about context and looking 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:21.339 at, sort of zooming out and looking at the whole 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:24.000 picture. I think that's really important. So 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.480 change, we've mentioned the word change quite 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.619 a few times and you're very interested in the 00:19:29.619 --> 00:19:34.619 psychology of that. And going back to the public's 00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:36.480 appetite for change, we're going to have to make 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.839 some key lifestyle changes, aren't we? I think 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.200 you're still a member of the Guild of Food Writers. 00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:46.019 Yes. Yes, you're still a member. So, I mean, 00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:47.500 we're going to have to make changes to our diet, 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:49.319 for example. That's just one of the changes. 00:19:50.170 --> 00:19:54.150 Are we going to change? Can we change that much? 00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:57.670 Can we eat less meat? Can we buy less? I mean, 00:19:57.730 --> 00:19:59.569 we're buying more than we've ever bought before. 00:19:59.630 --> 00:20:01.509 We're consuming more, whether it's clothing, 00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:09.250 food, home style, bits and pieces. We are big 00:20:09.250 --> 00:20:11.990 consumers, aren't we? Far more than we were 15, 00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:15.470 20 years ago. Totally. And I think that's a really 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:19.470 interesting question because yes we need to change 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:23.809 but so many of the changes when it comes to becoming 00:20:23.809 --> 00:20:26.630 more sustainable in inverted commas are about 00:20:26.630 --> 00:20:29.589 not doing something or doing something less and 00:20:29.589 --> 00:20:33.309 what I would love to see is more like let's eat 00:20:33.309 --> 00:20:35.710 more vegetables let's eat more seasonal food 00:20:35.710 --> 00:20:39.470 let's eat more of this not let's eat less of 00:20:39.470 --> 00:20:41.470 this because that's quite constricting and soon 00:20:41.470 --> 00:20:43.829 as you say don't do something to someone it's 00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:45.630 like oh you're taking something away from me 00:20:45.630 --> 00:20:48.849 and actually you think It's going to save you 00:20:48.849 --> 00:20:51.470 money. It's going to be healthier for you. It's 00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:53.289 going to be better for the environment as a kind 00:20:53.289 --> 00:20:56.670 of side benefit. But it doesn't necessarily have 00:20:56.670 --> 00:20:58.630 to be that, oh, you've got to choose the worthy 00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:05.089 thing. And I think when you sell it as a positive 00:21:05.089 --> 00:21:09.269 in other ways as well, I think it's more attractive 00:21:09.269 --> 00:21:15.529 to people. So I don't know, talking about driving 00:21:15.529 --> 00:21:18.349 less, for example. If you can get on your bike 00:21:18.349 --> 00:21:20.890 or you can walk to your bus stop, you're going 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:23.210 to have more fitness embedded in your daily routine 00:21:23.210 --> 00:21:25.029 and you're going to be healthier. Your blood 00:21:25.029 --> 00:21:27.150 pressure is going to go down probably and you're 00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:29.950 going to feel better. So doing things that are 00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:34.910 joyful and that make your life better now and 00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:37.750 hopefully are better for the planet too, are 00:21:37.750 --> 00:21:40.190 going to be much easier to sell to people, I 00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:46.150 think. And we'll, finding ways to kind of build 00:21:46.150 --> 00:21:50.109 connection into those changes in terms of people 00:21:50.109 --> 00:21:53.390 connection, connection to nature, I think is 00:21:53.390 --> 00:22:00.309 much more viable in the long term, I think, in 00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:04.329 terms of what we can keep going. If I change 00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:09.029 a habit and I hook it onto another existing routine, 00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:11.029 it's going to be much easier to make that happen 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:13.829 every day. If I do that and then make it something 00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:16.400 I really enjoy. I'm going to definitely want 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:19.599 to keep doing it. So I've had a streak of doing 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:21.960 yoga every day for 120 days, which I'm really 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.039 proud of. And I haven't missed a single day because 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.220 I really love it and because I know it's good 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:29.460 for me. So if we can think of it in terms of 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:34.299 positive solutions rather than inhibiting people, 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:37.980 I think it's just in terms of the framing of 00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:40.680 how we communicate things, having a better future. 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.539 is a very exciting thing. Having a greener, more 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:48.019 sustainable supply chain, having better working 00:22:48.019 --> 00:22:52.940 rights, having less pollution, all of these things 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:57.000 that come with net zero and with a better future, 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.180 we're not going to regret doing that. Yes, exactly. 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:02.160 I mean, that's a whole other conversation, isn't 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.400 it? Better working practices, better, fairer 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.410 wages. better working conditions, and it all 00:23:08.410 --> 00:23:10.849 has an impact, doesn't it? And it's all around 00:23:10.849 --> 00:23:14.190 this climate conversation. But just going back 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:16.950 to your own environment, because you live in 00:23:16.950 --> 00:23:19.150 one of the most beautiful parts of the country, 00:23:19.269 --> 00:23:22.430 and that's Devon. How has that impacted? How 00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:25.170 has living in that environment impacted your 00:23:25.170 --> 00:23:26.549 career and your writing? Because you mentioned 00:23:26.549 --> 00:23:30.309 earlier, make Sulcombe more plastic clever, and 00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:32.710 you launched that campaign with your daughter. 00:23:33.409 --> 00:23:36.109 And that was that was around plastic. So how 00:23:36.109 --> 00:23:39.569 has your own environment inspired you on this 00:23:39.569 --> 00:23:42.710 journey? So I grew up in Landlocked Bedfordshire 00:23:42.710 --> 00:23:45.930 and ended up in Devon for six months and have 00:23:45.930 --> 00:23:48.809 been here more than 20 years. So I really have 00:23:48.809 --> 00:23:51.250 this strong appreciation of I realise I'm really 00:23:51.250 --> 00:23:55.089 lucky to be by the coast. I have a really, really 00:23:55.089 --> 00:23:57.750 strong connection with the sea. If I have to 00:23:57.750 --> 00:24:00.690 go away for work, I really miss it and I really 00:24:00.690 --> 00:24:06.109 miss. seeing the horizon and just it keeps me 00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:09.069 really grounded and i see real value i know that 00:24:09.069 --> 00:24:11.529 there's real value in in having it there and 00:24:11.529 --> 00:24:15.470 i'm very lucky to have it because i love it so 00:24:15.470 --> 00:24:17.509 much i have this really strong urge to protect 00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:19.809 it which is why my daughter and i set up that 00:24:19.809 --> 00:24:21.690 campaign a few years ago called plastic clever 00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:24.950 sulkum we could see um so much plastic on the 00:24:24.950 --> 00:24:26.950 beaches as loads of people did around the country 00:24:26.950 --> 00:24:30.589 at the time but we live in a really like a tourist 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:33.619 hot spot and it felt like no one was really joining 00:24:33.619 --> 00:24:36.599 up what was happening on land to what was happening 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:40.599 at sea. And so we tried to affect change, not 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:42.539 by blaming anyone, not by telling people off, 00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:44.559 but by saying, look, we could do this. We were 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.559 getting people involved. It was very much kind 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.960 of grassroots, bottom -up approach, which really, 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.440 really worked in our small town. And it had a 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:55.500 really, really brilliant, long -lasting impact, 00:24:55.579 --> 00:25:00.619 actually. And I'm really conscious of keeping 00:25:00.619 --> 00:25:03.349 that strong nature connection and ocean connection 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:06.509 going with my two children so they they don't 00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:08.730 know any different they've grown up here they're 00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:11.609 very very lucky um but I want them to really 00:25:11.609 --> 00:25:15.470 appreciate it and to really care for it and and 00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:20.349 realize that it can it can bring so many benefits 00:25:20.349 --> 00:25:25.329 for our well -being as well as um yeah emotionally 00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:29.180 mental physical all of those things As well as 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:31.920 we also have a duty to care for the patch of 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.240 land we live on and the patch of whether it's 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.559 coastline or inland, wherever we have a duty 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.299 of care and a responsibility to do something 00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:42.279 about it. And I try and really ingrain that in 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:46.220 our lives. So, for example, before school, I 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.079 take my son to the beach and he's super aware 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:50.859 of the tides because sometimes there's no beach 00:25:50.859 --> 00:25:53.339 and sometimes there's a huge beach. And it's 00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:57.619 just kind of embedded in his. in his knowing 00:25:57.619 --> 00:26:01.460 i suppose which i think is really really magical 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:04.279 and i hope that stays with him for a long long 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.240 time i go into schools um often enough to look 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.400 at some of the projects that we work with and 00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:13.200 the children are incredibly optimistic and aware 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.799 of their environment now i'm going to ask you 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:17.700 this question because i do tend to ask us this 00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:19.940 question i think i probably know the answer um 00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:22.960 you've talked so much about solutions and being 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.259 positive So would you say you're an optimist 00:26:26.259 --> 00:26:30.000 or a pessimist? So I would say I'm a stubborn 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.079 optimist. I don't think we've got it all sussed. 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:38.819 I think we have got a very long way to go. But 00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:42.799 I use my frustration to, I kind of try and channel 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.500 my frustration into motivation, basically, to 00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:47.940 kind of do something about it. So I'm not resting 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:50.000 on my laurels. I don't think I can sit back and 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.099 do nothing and wait for this all to happen and 00:26:52.099 --> 00:26:55.619 sort itself out. We very much need to keep our 00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:59.000 foot on the pedal and keep working really hard 00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:02.700 to push for better and push for change. But I 00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:05.900 do feel optimistic generally. Super. So you're 00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:07.579 not sitting on your laurels, as you said. So 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:10.339 you're a successful published author. You work 00:27:10.339 --> 00:27:12.440 for The Conversations as well. You're a writer. 00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:15.000 You've been a teacher. What next for your career? 00:27:15.099 --> 00:27:19.799 Where do your ambitions lie next? My ambition. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.700 So at the moment, I am doing a fellowship with 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:25.819 the Solutions Journalism Network and the European 00:27:25.819 --> 00:27:30.740 Journalism Centre. And it's all about shifting 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:35.160 climate journalism across whole newsrooms. So 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:39.059 my mission is for climate to not just be an environment 00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:42.799 story and for it to be on every page of our website, 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.000 potentially in some form. So not necessarily 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.160 headline news, but for there to be. climate awareness 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.299 in all that we do and so I'm working on various 00:27:53.299 --> 00:27:56.940 projects within this fellowship and I'm also 00:27:56.940 --> 00:27:59.920 part of the Reuters Institute run the Oxford 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:02.259 Climate Journalism Network I'm also doing a fellowship 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:04.579 with them at the moment and that is very much 00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:08.400 about really being at the front line of the latest 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.980 knowledge about all this and thinking about how 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:13.759 to amplify that how to how to bring that into 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.710 all the work that we do so I really want to make 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.230 my climate journalism better but also to help 00:28:20.230 --> 00:28:21.950 other journalists make their climate journalism 00:28:21.950 --> 00:28:25.430 better. Ideally I'd love to come full circle 00:28:25.430 --> 00:28:28.630 and bring that back to the education stage in 00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:31.869 terms of empowering all young journalists and 00:28:31.869 --> 00:28:34.789 young communicators to have the confidence to 00:28:34.789 --> 00:28:37.069 do this more and to know what questions to ask. 00:28:37.170 --> 00:28:38.769 We don't need to know all the answers we just 00:28:38.769 --> 00:28:41.769 need to know which experts to ask and what to 00:28:41.769 --> 00:28:45.339 ask them. But yeah, that's my vision for the 00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:47.740 future, for climate to not be an environment 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:49.819 story, for it to be an everything story. Thank 00:28:49.819 --> 00:28:51.839 you. So we're really going to be following your 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.079 progress and asking, the way you talk about media 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.140 and the young journalists and asking those questions 00:28:57.140 --> 00:28:59.920 and being authentic about those questions as 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:02.980 well. Yes. And really asking the difficult, the 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:05.740 really difficult issues and keeping it in the 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:08.339 news. As you say, not necessarily the headline 00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:11.579 news, but a part of that conversation every day. 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:14.940 So there is progress because we obviously need 00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:19.000 to make it. We've got some tough targets to meet, 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:22.279 haven't we? So thank you very much to Anna. It's 00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.240 actually fascinating talking to you. It's been 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.440 wonderful to have you as my guest today and for 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.319 providing such insight. There can be no doubt 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:33.480 that climate change is the biggest challenge 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.059 of our time. today we must reduce greenhouse 00:29:36.059 --> 00:29:38.920 gas emissions to slow global warming today we 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:41.400 must act for tomorrow adjusting our lifestyles 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:43.579 to current and future impacts of climate change 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.960 today we must use our collective wisdom to deliver 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:50.140 on our climate commitments today we work for 00:29:50.140 --> 00:29:53.720 tomorrow's world please do Email us with your 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:56.880 ideas. Email podcast at salixfinance .co .uk. 00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:59.359 We'd love to know what you think. Please do subscribe 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.700 to our podcast channels. But I'd like to say 00:30:01.700 --> 00:30:04.359 a huge thanks to our guest today. And that's 00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.119 Anna Turns for taking the time to speak to us. 00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:09.240 Thank you very much, Anna. Thank you for having 00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:12.299 me. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation 00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:16.680 Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.099 about our work. And to find more content, please 00:30:20.099 --> 00:30:24.460 visit salixfinance .co .uk forward slash podcasts.