This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
delivering on climate change, our collective
challenge. I'm Hannah Walker, and I believe that
the best way to communicate a message is by being
passionate about what you are talking about.
Through that passion, I believe that you take
people with you and create action using your
influence to make change and make a difference.
Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
And today, I'm fortunate enough to have Ian Rodger
here with me for our podcast. And Ian is Director
of Public Sector Decarbonisation at Salix. So
fantastic. And thank you for your time, Ian.
Thank you very much for having me. I would like
to talk a little bit about your career. How did
you get here? And I know that you've had a very
successful career with the Army over the last
20 years. And then you've then shifted into business,
which has brought you to Salix. So can you tell
me a little bit about your background? So I was
an engineering graduate. I did a master's at
Exeter University in electronic engineering.
And from there, I joined the army. I spent most
of my time in the army in telecommunications
and strategy. And I was really fortunate. I got
to travel all over the world. And I did things
and met people in places that you would. No other
job would ever get you close to. And it was absolutely
fascinating. And then I did that for 18 years.
And then for various reasons, mostly to do with
spending more time with my family, I decided
it was time for a change. And so I then went
to work for Barclays. I did a number of jobs
in Barclays, but I ended up... in the business
banking section of Barclays, which supports the
small business customers. And my particular job
there was looking after all sorts of challenging
issues that didn't have a natural home within
the bank. So everything from rolling out GDPR
to historic complaints. And one of the last things
that I did while I was there was to develop a
strategy for Barclays to support its small business
customers. in the transition to a net zero economy,
because we could see the changes that were happening
already in the British economy and in the world
economy. And we could see the future changes
that were likely. And it was apparent to us that
a lot of small businesses were going to really
struggle with that transition unless we put in
place some support mechanisms to do that. So
that was one of the last things I did. And through
that, I was lucky enough to meet a number of
people, one of whom was Theresa Graham, who was
the chair or previous chair of Salix. And she
invited me to apply for this job. And here I
am today. And I would imagine that obviously
a key part of your work and your time in the
army is that developing of that team, that really
that team spirit and that togetherness and that.
commitment to be driven to one goal how has all
of that experience helped you in what you're
doing today i think it's hugely influential in
how i lead the team and how i see us doing i
think to be successful in anything it's always
about the people you have with you and getting
the right people and motivating those people
so they're passionate about what they're doing.
But not just that, that they understand not just
what they're doing, but why they're doing it
and the importance of doing a really good job.
And I think that's been a constant throughout
whatever job I have done. And it's just as important
here working at Salix as it was in the Armory
or in Barclays. It's about taking people, motivating
them and making sure they have a real passion.
and an understanding about what they're doing
and they feel that they can make decisions to
the best ability to achieve the objectives that
we've set. And OK, so you're the I would say
you're at the coalface of delivering one of our
biggest schemes. And we do deliver a number of
schemes across the spectrum in housing and public
sector decarbonisation. But you're certainly
at the coalface of delivering the public sector
decarbonisation scheme with government. Huge
project, which we're seeing projects being developed
and delivered across the country. But for you,
what does an average day look like then? I don't
think there is an average day, which is one of
the beauties of this job. Every day is different.
Every day has new excitements and new challenges.
They all have a similar theme. But obviously,
the public sector decarbonisation scheme is important.
the team also runs the low carbon skills fund
the equivalent grants in scotland we have loan
schemes in england scotland and wales we have
the welsh to garvin scheme and schemes of the
scottish funding councils there's 11 different
schemes that we run as a team all focused on
energy efficiency and net zero so all of that
combined means a lot of different kind of challenges
a lot of different things we have to do But I
think there's kind of three key parts to my day
probably, or my working day, because everything
is different. The first one is the kind of strategy
and policy engagement. I'm a member of the executive
of Salix here, so making sure the company is
set up and supporting all of our goals effectively
and that we're working together as a wider team
to deliver all of the schemes, not just the ones
in the public sector that we're responsible for.
But that's also as much engaging with the Department
for Energy Security and Net Zero, the Scottish
government and the Welsh government, having policy
discussions with them about what they want to
do. They're the ones who provide us with the
money that we spend and the objectives that we
have to achieve. supporting them in developing
that policy so we can maximise all the funding
that we get to achieve the best possible outcomes
is really important. And we spend a lot of time
doing that and making sure that the policy objectives
are correct and then the schemes that we design
and deliver are the best possible way of meeting
those policy objectives. I think the second key
role is assurance. I am responsible for making
sure all of that vast amount of public money
is spent correctly. So ensuring that all of our
controls and our processes are in place, that
our system works to support that and that the
people who are delivering that understand that
and are doing that effectively. And then we report
regularly to all of our funders and all of our
schemes and to the Salix board. on how we are
delivering and assuring them that the money they've
given us to hand out to the public sector has
been spent in the right way. And then I think
the third piece is really, it's all very well
talking about these schemes in the abstract,
but in reality, every single project that we
support, and there are thousands, is different.
Everything from a 30 to 40 million revamp of
a hospital's heating system a few hundred thousand
pounds changing an old gas boiler for an air
source heat pump in a school these are all real
people in real buildings with children with patients
with hospital staff with public with whoever
works and lives and uses those buildings and
they have all sorts of challenges and issues
whether it's the school having to work around
classrooms that are needed by pupils and after
school clubs and work can only be done at certain
times or hospitals having to manage infection
control when they're working in hospital wards
or shutting down operating theatres so they can
do essential replacements all of these are going
to real world problems and you know as simple
as simple as we can make the scheme nothing ever
quite fits individuals projects so a lot of my
time a lot of my leadership team time is sent
just kind of working around the margins the gray
areas of things that don't quite fit the nice
neat rules that we write down on paper and trying
to make sure that we use that money effectively
and kind of help those projects with these complex
issues and their own schemes to manage and their
own projects to deliver do so in a way that remains
compliant within the intent of what we're trying
to do Thank you. And thank you for explaining,
you know, the broad nature of the work at Salix,
because you're absolutely right. There are such
a variety of schemes there for Wales. We've got
the recycling, we've got the de Garben, we've
got Scotland and across, obviously, all the housing
schemes as well. It's a huge amount of work.
But just focusing, though, on your last point,
you've talked about strategy, working with the
department and the importance of assurance. But
you're talking about the reality. So you're right,
we're working with schools, universities, colleges,
hospitals, whole leisure centres, one, a massive
amount of work going in terms of installing heat
pumps, energy -saving measures, solar, PV, etc.
That reality, how much do you see of that reality?
Now, I've been on a few site visits with you.
What do you take away from those kind of visits?
Several things. First of all, I think I touched
on it previously, the complexity. We see a fairly
simplified view when we see the project application.
It all looks like all project plans do. It looks
very clean and neat on paper. And then I think
you get a better grasp of the reality of some
of the challenges that our clients have to grapple
with. And why it's so important that we understand
that and are flexible enough to be able to support
them as far as possible within the overall scheme
rules. But the second thing I take away is just
how engaged and passionate so many people are
about this, about doing the right thing, about
even though it's probably not the most straightforward
thing to do, it's the right thing to do and doing
it well and doing it. And they're passionate
about doing it for their buildings, for their
sites. but also for the carbon savings they can
do through these projects and the energy efficiency
and the overall cost savings they can deliver.
And then the third thing I always take away is
the ambition. There's a lot of people out there
who just think we can do this, and we just need
to get on with it, and there's plenty of technologies
that are there, the skills are there, the people
are there. We just need to get on and do it.
I think that's the optimism. We can make a difference,
I take away as well. So, absolutely, you've got
that ambition, and you've mentioned carbon emissions
and cost savings as well, because that matters,
doesn't it? It matters going into a building
and making those energy efficiency savings, but
also any cost savings are important. But there
are rather a lot of targets, aren't there, Ian?
You know, we've got 2050 targets, we've got 2040
targets. A lot of councils have got 2030 targets.
And every day we're working to very tight deadlines
within our work. I know the delivery teams are
working to very tight targets to deliver the
projects on time to get that money out the door.
Are there too many targets and are they realistic?
A target is only ever as good as the plan to
achieve it and resourcing that effectively. So
a target that's just there for the sake of having
a target or to say that we've got a target, and
it helps, almost like greenwashing. I think some
targets are greenwashing. We set a target, therefore
we're good. But actually, and I think you see
this, the schemes and the projects that we often
see are the most successful. It's not just a
target. It's a strategic objective of the public
sector body, whether it's a hospital or a university
or a local authority. They know what they need
to achieve. And it's really important. And their
boards, their executives, all of their staff
are bought into trying to hit that because it's
a core objective of the public sector body. So
I think those are valid targets. Other short
-term targets are important. I know there's a
lot of pressure that we have because of the way
that funding is channeled to public sector bodies,
particularly in the grant schemes where you have
to spend a certain amount within each financial
year. And I get that is really challenging. But
part of me also recognises that doing that has
forced a tempo. It has forced people to take
action, to make decisions, to get on with it.
Whereas if there'd been a slightly looser or
more ambivalent timeline, it wouldn't have happened.
So I think sometimes targets are really important.
They're kind of holding our feet to the fire,
saying we've got to do this, and we have. 2050
wasn't magic up out of thin air. There's scientific
evidence that says if we don't get on and start
reducing our carbon emissions, we are fundamentally
going to change the planet we live on, and it
won't be pleasant. We absolutely have to look
at some of those targets and work out how we're
going to achieve them rather than complaining
about the target themselves. The targets are
there for a reason. I think they're important.
Our job is to make sure we resource hitting those
targets and make them core to our business, whatever
we do. And do you think we can go fast enough
then to meet those targets? I think the opportunity
is there, whether there is enough will. across
both politically and in the public to make the
changes that we need. I think it's obvious that
the technologies exist to do what we need to
do. The know -how exists to do what we need to
do. For most things, there are some things I
appreciate are still quite difficult and possibly
a stretch, but they're on the margins. They're
not the big bulk of emitters. We just need to
get on and do it. But I think it's not just,
and I talk about the political, it's not just
the politicians. I think certainly government
has a fair amount of ambition in what it's trying
to achieve. But all of us are going to have to
look really hard at our lifestyle and how we
live and the things that we choose to do, because
we all make choices every day. And a lot of them
involve emissions, that city break that we go
on, that overseas holiday in a villa by a pool
somewhere. that cruise whatever it is or just
what we eat you know where we shop there's a
whole host of choices we're gonna have to think
really carefully i think as a as a nation as
a world as a kind of a collective on what we
choose to do because every choice we make now
has an impact and if we're not careful and we
don't start really thinking about what the impact
of those choices are long term I think we might
walk our way into a bit of a disaster. So it's
not just about the big ticket items and political
will from government. Everyone has to be thinking
about this now and start working out what they
can do to help. And we do see that every day,
don't we, through the projects that we're working
on, whether it's the capital projects, whether
it's schemes like the low carbon skills and the
ambition and the heat carbonisation plans. The
people that are working on those projects have
home lives. They travel. As you say, we go on
holidays. Many people choose to eat meat, dairy,
etc. It's whether that's enough. It's not just
government, is it? As you say, it's business.
It's all of us. It's just being nudged to go
in the right direction because I think we can
generally agree. As you say, science is on our
side. We can generally agree this is something
we all need to be doing. This is climate change.
This is happening. We see it on our news every
day. We've seen it in Valencia recently. We saw
it in Wales not so long ago with flooding. Clearly,
it's there. It's happening. It's whether people
are really prepared to make that change and not
just a little bit of recycling. on the side exactly
that and people i think but it's also an education
piece i think a lot of people don't understand
the consequences of a decision or don't have
an option and that's the other thing i think
we're seeing more and more but there are sometimes
it's not straightforward to make those choices
some people don't have a choice but to drive
to work every day you know if they want to work
if they want to keep that job they're going to
have to do this how do we help people make those
choices and make it easy to make the right choice
because at times at the moment it's very hard
to make the right choice you can probably only
do it if you're wealthy enough you know to have
that choice and i think that's the the challenge
of our generations how do we make that choice
a possibility for everyone not just those who
can afford to make it is something you see when
you go on your site visits uh not just You know,
looking at those heat pumps and counting those
carbon emissions, because obviously they have
to report on their carbon and carbon savings,
et cetera, eventually. Do you also see the impact
that that environment has on the people who use
it? You know, whether it's those patients, whether
it's the schoolchildren, whether it's the leisure
centre users, the people who use the warmer swimming
pool. I mean, does that, is that having an effect?
Is that going to be enough of a... coaxing mechanism
to encourage people this this building now feels
better to use there's certainly other benefits
other than the kind of the energy efficiency
savings and the carbon savings so we've had feedback
from a number of clients from you know our chief
executive was on a visit to school the other
day and the teachers and kids were telling him
it was lovely because enough to wear their coats
into the classroom anymore because the room was
properly insulated, the windows didn't have big
gaps where the air came in and the heating worked.
So that's a real positive. We've seen it also
in some of the hospitals we've supported where
patient recovery times are reduced because a
consistent temperature is possible in some of
the wards for those with long -term injuries.
And that's been really positive. I think the
other thing we also see when we go on visits
is the wider picture because we're obviously
in a very narrow channel we're focused on the
decarbonization of heat in buildings that's really
what we do the most but i was at a hospital in
the southwest recently and while we were there
in the canteen they were having a a stand run
by the estates team and all that week the food
they had sourced was zero emissions carbon they're
explaining where they got it from how it was
gone and encouraging people to look for those
kind of opportunities in their own food purchasing
for home. So a lot of these organisations aren't
just doing the big stuff, the buildings. They
really are looking holistically at their carbon
emissions and the challenges and really trying
to support their staff and support the people
who use those facilities and understanding their
options and choices. So what we do makes a difference.
directly in terms of carbon emissions it has
an indirect impact on the quality of the life
of the people who use those buildings whether
they be patients pupils you know staff working
in a council office businesses to a leisure centre
but it also gives them an opportunity to advertise
wider things and that's been quite successful
as well thank you now i know you're you you are
a lover of the great outdoors and um i think
you've told me about your expeditions i think
is it duke of edinburgh that you lead teams into
the mountains, into the camping and into the
wilderness. You obviously love the outdoors,
which, so it'd be lovely to hear just for a moment
a little bit about why you do that. But also,
you've talked a lot about people changing their
habits and their lifestyle. Well, you're a director
at Salix. We're working heavily with governments
across the UK on net zero and meeting these challenges.
So I am going to put you on the spot a little.
What changes have you made to your lifestyle?
That's better for the planet. OK, so there's
two very different questions there, and I'll
answer the second one first, if I may. So in
terms of me, we put solar panels and a battery
on our house last year, and I'm hoping to install
a heat pump on my house next summer so that we
can reduce our carbon emissions as a family as
much as possible. uh and i recognize i'm fortunate
that i have the money to be able to do that because
not everyone has uh i catch the train and cycle
to work i don't use the car i use public transport
all the time wherever possible we've reduced
the amount of red meat that we eat as a family
we can't eliminate it because i think my oldest
son would i have a fit if that happened because
he's a big fan of his lamb chops and steak but
we do that we try to shop locally and we look
for goods that have been bought locally where
we can um so we could do more absolutely we could
do more um but as you say everyone's got to try
doing their own little things first and that's
what we're trying to do um in terms of your first
question uh i do love the great outdoors i've
always have done always was one of the reasons
i joined the army because it was much better
than spending life behind the desk every day
I still be of that, even though I now spend life
behind the desk every day, I'd much rather be
out and about. And so when I left the army or
just before I left, I actually run an explorer
scout unit, which is a 14 to 18 year olds. And
yes, I do love taking them out in some of the
wilder places in the UK and sharing my love of
hill walking and the great outdoors of them and
trying to encourage the next generation of outdoor
enthusiasts and show them what possibility you
can get. up in the hills, in the mountains or
something like that. Thank you. Now, this discussion
could easily lead us to a picture of gloom, especially
when we talk about climate change. And I think
I know the answer to the next question. But are
you an optimist or a pessimist, Ian? Always an
optimist, Hannah. Got to be an optimist. I meet
too many positive people, too many really bright,
enthusiastic people who are doing their utmost
to make a difference. The ambition is there.
The technology is there. The willpower is there.
I think everything is there. All the jigsaw pieces
are around us. We just need to put it together
and get on with it. So, yes, definitely an optimist.
Perfect. Thank you very much. And thank you very
much to Ian Roger for your time today on our
decarbonisation dialogue. There can be no doubt
that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions to slow global warming. Today,
we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles
to current and future impacts of climate change.
Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. And today, we work
for tomorrow's future. Don't forget to subscribe.
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with your suggestions and ideas to podcast at
salixfinance .co .uk. Thank you. Thank you very
much, Ian. Thank you very much for having me,
Hannah. You've been listening to the Decarbonisation
Dialogue, a podcast from Salix. For more information
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