This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
delivering on climate change, our collective
challenge. I'm Hannah Walker and I believe that
the best way to communicate a message is by being
passionate about what you are talking about.
Through that passion, I believe you can take
people with you and create action using your
influence to make change and make a difference.
Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
With me today, I've got Gareth Ellis, who's Energy
and Environment Manager at Cranfield University.
So thank you very much to Gareth for joining
us. A huge amount of experience in sustainability
and operations at the university. You oversee
the management of carbon, energy and environment
across the university estate. You've also been,
I believe, a school governor, a football coach.
And you live, I believe, in mid -Bedfordshire
and you're passionate about improving your local
area. You've worked hard on improving road safety
in the local parish and you've secured funding
for solar panels on the roof of a local school
and a cycle link as well between villages. Cannot
wait to hear all about that. So thank you very
much to Gareth for your time today. Let's start,
Gareth, by talking a little bit about your career
and how you combine that and your work at Cranfield,
which is extensive, with all of that community
work too. Thank you. I started out originally
as an agricultural engineer working in the agricultural
industry, advising on mechanisation on farms.
Because of where I was and because of the kind
of farms I was working on, fruit farms, horticultural
farms and so on, energy was a big issue. So that's
really how I got into the energy side of things,
using my engineering kind of background and knowledge.
I suppose the community angle to this maybe came
more when I made my first move in my career kind
of sideways to working for a charity that was
promoting renewable energy. So having developed
a kind of expertise on wind turbines and to a
lesser extent solar in my kind of agricultural
sort of. area of work. I went to work for a national
charity, National Energy Foundation, promoting
renewable energy. And that really did focus on
working with local communities, working with
schools and sort of general awareness raising,
but also working on specific projects. And I
think it was at that stage and also with children
growing up that I became more involved with,
you know, standing on the local parish council
actually standing as uh i was elected as a green
district councillor for a couple of years before
they closed the district council down um and
so i got involved in in yeah alongside my work
i suppose one bled into the other put it that
way And today you're very much involved in the
decarbonisation of the Cranfield University estate.
In fact, I know you've been working with my colleagues
in Salix on various schemes, including, I believe,
the public sector decarbonisation scheme. Generally,
on the climate front, we're looking at massive
challenges as we face climate change. We're looking
at inequality, pandemics, resource pressures
and indeed the very threat to humanity. Your
view, are we doing enough now on the climate
change agenda or have people given up? Oh, I
don't think people have given up. And I think
we could always do a lot more. The situation
is much more positive now than it was. When I
first got involved with the community energy
side of things, maybe 20 years ago, I think then
it was much more a kind of small scale kind of
approach. But now there's a lot more interest
from the general public. There's a lot more support
from government. And this is all comes back,
obviously, to the recognition that climate change
isn't going away, that it is a clearer. and fast
approaching threat. So I think things are a lot
more positive now, but I think we could be doing
a lot more. It's surprising what you can do if
you're given the resources. And I think the public
sector decarbonisation scheme for Cranford University
was a bit of a game changer for us. We had done
a lot of work, you know, between 2010 and 2020.
We did a surprising amount of work using loans
and kind of internal revolving funds. to make
lots of energy savings. But the grant scheme,
the public sector decarbonisation grant scheme,
really enabled us to make the kind of shift that
we need to make to get onto that decarbonisation
path. And by shift, what I mean by that is basically
all our heating here was very largely using gas
boilers. And now through the public decarbonisation
scheme, we've managed to get rid of the vast
majority of those. And we're on a path to electrifying
our heating systems. And we've got a strategy
on how we will make sure that that electricity
that's going to drive our heating systems is
both affordable and also zero carbon. And indeed,
at Cranfield, you are committed to those net
zero carbon, reducing those net zero carbon emissions.
I think you've got a 2030 deadline in reducing
emissions by thousands of tonnes a year following
that investment that you've spoken about in energy
saving measures. So the university has invested
significantly and in renewable energy, as you
say, since 2010 at least. But what does that...
actually mean for the site? And what does it
mean for the students, the community around you,
and what does it mean for the future of the university?
Well, it has impacts in all sorts of ways. Of
course, Cranfield University is a very technology
-orientated university, so a number of students
who come here are either studying the environment
or they're studying engineering or energy as
part of their postgraduate studies. So there's
a huge overlap sometimes with what they're studying.
or even researching, and what we're trying to
do. I could cite quite a number of examples where
we've done work with our postgraduate students,
either doing PhDs or MSc theses, where they've
been working on projects which actually harness
some of the work that we've done, but also give
us feedback and give us an input and an insight
into what we might want to be thinking about
doing next. It has other benefits. In terms of
the local community, I'm not sure. certainly
we we have to make sure that we are working with
the local community and they're aware of what
we're doing because the first solar farm we put
in was right next to the village we've got a
large village cranfield village the other side
of our airfield and that's where we cited the
solar farm so we we had to work closely with
the paris council to make sure they were comfortable
with the way we were putting that solar farm
in for example And in terms of that community,
how engaged? You've obviously had to look at
whether it's planning, whether letting people
have an idea of timescales, what they can expect.
There's all of a sudden this building work. There
may be diggers, all kinds of construction workers.
So you're obviously communicating with that local
community. But how do you communicate that message?
Because presumably you're not just saying, we've
got workmen here on this date. You're explaining
to people why you're doing this, why it's important,
why it's better for the environment? Oh, yes.
I mean, that is obviously the right approach.
And it is, in a sense, what the university does
anyway. We obviously work closely with the local
community in other areas as well. Well, we've
got a working airfield, so the community is always
very sensitive to what we might be doing on that
airfield. And we're sensitive to make sure that
we don't cause them... any any discomforts um
or any impacts um from our operations in general
terms but when we talked to them about the solar
farm they were quite impressed i think that we
were actually putting that kind of thing in at
that kind of scale so you've been You've talked
about, we've talked about targets and you've
been doing a huge amount of work there at Cranfield.
And indeed, there are a lot of targets around
climate change. You know, I think scientists
pretty much agreed where we're going. As you
say, climate change is not going away. But there
are a lot of targets, you know, whether it's
2030 target, 2050 target, 2045 target. Is that
enough? And do the targets go far enough, do
you think? Or perhaps they're not achievable
at our current rates of progress. The UK target
is net zero by 2050. The university has set a
target of net zero by 2030. And I can see how
we can get to net zero for our scope one and
two emissions, so our direct emissions. So the
fossil fuel that we burn to heat the buildings,
the electricity that we import to light the buildings
and provide power. I can see how we can get to
net zero by 2030 for our direct emissions. What's
more difficult is what we do about what are called
scope three or our indirect emissions. And I
think that's probably is too much. We can do
a lot, reduce our scope three emissions by influencing
our suppliers, by influencing our staff and students
in the way that perhaps they commute to the campus
or they do their business. So there's a lot we
can do with COP3 emissions, but I think COP3
emissions won't truly go away until the whole
country is net zero, if you like. That is interesting.
And thank you for explaining that because we
have to, I never assume knowledge and we have
to kind of make it as simple as possible also
for our listeners. So, but you're on target for
scope one and two, you think you're very positive
because you can control that. And presumably
you've got a timescale and you're obviously always
hoping for more funding and a kind of smooth
scale of funding as well. But it's those scope
three emissions that you are going to struggle
with. Those are the ones that you... can't directly
impact i don't think we'll be the only ones saying
that and i think the only way that you can address
it is by using this term net and talking about
offsets but then it becomes a bit difficult because
carbon offsetting has got a bad name in the press
in the media and you you have to be very careful
i think about how you address offsetting and
i would say that we're we're still investigating
that and we've not arrived at what the solution
might be to truly talk in terms of net zero by
2030 so i suppose what i'm saying is we're pretty
much i can see how we can get to zero carbon
never mind net zero carbon by 2030 for our direct
emissions what's much more difficult is how do
we get to net zero for the scope three emissions
by 2030 and and as you say that is Everybody
else, we've all got to be doing it all at the
same time. So, and that would take me back to
your students. So, it's a real hub of creativity
and innovation and, I mean, Cranfield, fantastic
technology and all of that. And you've spoken
about the research that students are doing. But
what other kind of green initiatives, if you
like, are happening at the university? And how
do you think generally we can engage those young
people in this climate? crisis conversation and
we'll call it a climate crisis shall we it's
on our news every day um but how are you bringing
people into that almost the raison d 'etre for
cranfield being here is the the aeronautical
work that goes on it isn't the only uh technological
subject that is that is taught here but it is
fundamental it's uh you know cranfield grew up
as a college of aeronautical engineering after
the uh second world war and in developed into
a broader technological college and university
and also has a business school but aeronautical
engineering is still fundamental to what Cranfield
does and of course that is very much focused
on the future of aeronautics and aerospace and
how is that going to become sustainable so there
are a lot of students coming here because they
want to obviously keep abreast of the latest
developments and the latest teaching in the subject
area. But that subject area is very much focused
on sustainability. And for example, with aeronautics,
looking at things like hydrogen -fueled aircraft,
the design of aircraft to make them much more
efficient and to make them fit for purpose for,
let's say, that 2050 horizon in terms of when
we get to truly net zero across the country.
Tell me a little bit more about that research
that's happening in terms of, as you say, aeronautics.
You've got those huge hangars there at Cranfield,
electrification of our flight. We look up in
the skies and we're all doing our best down here
in terms of trying to reduce our carbon emissions.
But we obviously look up in the sky. Above us,
we've got the planes flying overhead. So are
you able to tell me a little bit about that research
going on for the flight travel? We're talking
about changing behaviours. We're all flying all
over the world all of the time. So what are you
going to do about it, Cranfield? Yeah, I can
talk more about changing behaviours because that's
more my remit. I'm not an academic, so I don't
get directly involved in the research, only perhaps
to help facilitate it. and as i say provide data
to students where i've got the data but we you
know for for example we have recently put into
place a policy on cranfield's business travel
um and so that sort of sets the parameters for
what we expect from staff in terms of whether
they should be using the train or using the plane
um and very much the the guidance is that uh
if it's I think within seven hours journey time,
they should be very much thinking about using
the train. So pretty much any travel in the UK
in the past, they might have thought of flying
up to Edinburgh. But now we would be asking serious
questions if they were not taking the train to
Edinburgh. So in terms of behaviour change, we've
talked about this, but now we're actually putting
policies in place, which is actually pushing
the staff in particular to follow. a change in
their behaviour, if you like, to meet what is
the requirement in terms of sustainability going
forwards. As far as students are concerned, we're
still much more on the carrot end of it rather
than the stick in terms of making sure we provide
them in terms of their commute onto the campus,
you know, affordable bus travel, cycle lanes
so that you can actually get here safely. And
we try and promote those and try and encourage
them to make sure they are using sustainable
transport modes. In terms of the research, as
I say, a lot of it is now looking at the technologies
of the future. So hydrogen is a good example
in terms of both how hydrogen can be used in
aircraft, but also how do you actually create
green hydrogen in an affordable manner? How are
you going to do that? Because at the moment,
green hydrogen is very expensive and very scarce.
In terms of your capital works, you've gone very
fast. You've really put your foot down, haven't
you, at Cranfield over the last few years, when
you've just mentioned your solar panel, your
solar PV, you've got the heat pumps. What next
in terms of your strategy? What's your vision
there? Well, one of the first measures we put
in back in 2010 was a combined heat and power
unit. And at the time, that significantly reduced
our carbon footprint. It provided us with over
half our electricity and about a quarter of our
heating requirement. That was extremely efficient,
and it was much cleaner than importing the electricity
from the grid. But it was gas -fired, so it wasn't
truly zero carbon. It was just low carbon at
the time, relatively speaking. Now that the grid
has become cleaner because of the coal power
stations that were there in 2010 are now no longer,
and now we've got wind farms. predominating on
the grid the grid although not zero carbon yet
is much cleaner than our combined heat and power
unit so fortunately it's already becoming end
of life so we will cease to use it in the next
year or so but we need to replace it we need
to replace it with a source of clean electricity
the grid isn't there yet our solar farms are
not big enough our solar farms give us about
15 percent of our electricity so we need something
much bigger to fill the gap And we are currently
negotiating with a developer who's putting in
a much larger solar farm about two miles away
from us. And the idea is that through a private
wire connection, they can provide us with as
much power as we want, certainly daytime. And
there is the possibility that we might also have
access to some landfill gas generation, that
they can pretty much supply us as much as we
want when we want it. And that's for the future.
That's over the next what? What kind of timescale
are you looking at? This hasn't been built yet.
This is all being developed as we speak. We're
in negotiations to see whether we can pull this
off and whether it's a it should be a win win
situation because they can probably sell it to
us for more than they would get selling it to
the grid. And likewise, we can hopefully buy
it from them at less than we pay for it from
grid because it's a direct connection. But that's
the theory. We're working through the negotiations
of the practicalities of how we actually do it
right now. So speaking of practicalities, is
it very much about a balance between working
with government, working with private enterprise,
trying to bring that all together? And how challenging
is that? It is both of those. And I would add
the third dimension, which is where we started
the conversation, which is the community. I've
recently taken on the role of being a director
of a local community energy group. I think the
government has talked about supporting community
energy. And I think there's a real opportunity
to actually put the three together. So there's
the kind of private initiatives, which I've just
mentioned in terms of the solar farm. There's
the government initiatives in terms of the kind
of grant support that we've had through the public
sector decarbonisation scheme. But I think there's
also the local community who both in terms of
potentially becoming part of a... local solution
in other words taking some of the demand from
the output of these new projects but also possibly
investing in these new projects as well. So the
whole idea of community energy is that people
have the opportunity to invest in renewable energy
projects and get a return from them. And you're
seeing a huge amount of interest there from the
community in that kind of project? This is all
pretty new this has all happened in the last
12 months but And it has been kickstarted with
some government funding. But yes, there's a tremendous
interest from the community in potential projects.
And the local authority is behind it as well.
So I think, you know, I'm hopeful that we'll
see a little bit more direction from the government
and that this will open this up as quite a big
factor in the way that renewables are deployed,
certainly in this part of the country where you
need to get the community on side. solar farms,
lots of wind turbines without the community having
some ownership of it, whether it's fiscal ownership
or ownership in other ways. And do you think
you need to be an expert in this area? You're
talking about a community initiative and you're
obviously very much behind that. You say it's
taken 12 months. You're the person who can go
along and talk to people about this, presumably.
But do you think you need to be an expert or
can anybody? get involved in something like this.
I mean, we're all interested in cutting our bills
for a start, but we might not know enough about
carbon emissions. We might not know enough about
how we're tracking that. Yeah, no, absolutely.
The local community energy group, the majority
of the work we're doing at the moment is on the
energy efficiency side of things, helping people
understand how they use their energy, what their
bills mean in practice, what they can do to reduce
their costs, and what are the opportunities in
their own homes as well. So we've got a team
of volunteers who are doing that. And these are
volunteers who don't necessarily haven't had
the technical training I've had, but have had
some training and have gotten the enthusiasm.
And we've kind of got a network now which is
sharing knowledge. So, yeah, I would say you
don't necessarily need to have the deep technical
knowledge. You just have to have the enthusiasm
and the willingness to learn. And you'll soon
get to grips with it. And the principles of all
this are fairly straightforward once you get
an idea of the appropriateness of scale and size
of things. And do you think in your experience
that enthusiasm is driven by the need to save
the planet or the need for future? Or do you
think it's driven by our pockets? I think, no,
I think a lot of the enthusiasm is because of
recognition of the climate crisis and the need
to make sure we pass something on to the next
generation that is something they can handle.
I think that is the main driver. I think it does
help focus the mind. The issues we've been through
in the last two or three years in terms of energy
cost, that certainly does focus the mind and
it does. bring it to more people's attention.
I think there's no doubt about that. But I think
the enthusiasm of the people getting involved
in coming up with solutions, I think that's largely
driven by the climate issue. Thank you. And because
you're obviously at the cutting edge there at
Cranfield, and you've looked at solution after
solution there, positive or negative, do you
feel positive about the climate future for the
football team that you've coached? And you've
just mentioned generations to come. How positive
do you feel? I no longer coach a football team.
That was more to do with when my daughter was
younger. She still plays football, which is good.
And I think for her peers, yeah, all this is
incredibly important. My daughter is showing
signs of being interested in politics. And I
think I hope that she doesn't have to necessarily
become somebody interested in green politics.
But I hope she recognises, I think, the importance
of things being more sustainable for the future.
And yeah. So I think, yeah, I think it's incredibly
important for that generation. And Gareth, can
I ask what next for you in terms of your work
at Cranfield, for you personally? What would
you like to see being done next or indeed in
your own career? Where would you like to be next?
Well, I'm coming to the end of my career at Cranfield
in the sense that I've already taken kind of
semi -retirement, so I'm not working full time.
I will probably be involved here for... two or
three more years, and I would like to see out
some of the projects that we're still working
on. I've only just recently got involved with
the Community Energy Group. I hope that we'll
see great things with that. So I think I'll still
be very active in looking at how sustainable
energy can be applied for the next few years.
I do hope you'll come on the future on another
podcast and talk about the progress that Community
Energy Group has made, because that sounds pioneering
and certainly something that we'll want to know
about. And many other people probably want to
know about that throughout the country. So that
sounds terribly exciting. So thank you very much
to Gareth Ellis from Cranfield University. Really
appreciate your time today. There can be no doubt
that climate change is the biggest challenge
of our time. Today, we must reduce greenhouse
gas emissions. slow global warming. Today, we
must act for tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles
to current and future impacts of climate change.
Today, we must use our collective wisdom to deliver
on our climate commitments. Today, we must work
for tomorrow's world. Don't forget to subscribe
to our podcast channels. And please do email
us with your views and ideas at podcast at salixfinance
.co .uk. Thank you very much to Gareth. Thank
you. Thank you. You've been listening to the
Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from Salix.
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