This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
delivering on climate change, our collective
challenge. I am Hannah Walker and I believe the
best way to communicate a message is by being
passionate about what you are talking about.
Through that passion, I believe you take people
with you and create action using your influence
to make change and make a difference. Our task
today is to get all of us to net zero. My guest
today is a Salix colleague, actually, of mine,
and that's Assistant Director Davide Natuzzi,
who's going to talk to us about his work at Salix.
Davide works in the carbon energy and technical
side of our business, delivering schemes across
the public sector. Hello, Davide. Hello, Hannah.
Thank you very much for your time today. Now,
it's wonderful to be able to sit down with a
colleague and discuss this agenda. But can you
please tell us, before we start talking about
your work today, can you tell us a little bit
about your career? Because your background is
very much engineering and technical. My background
is an environmental engineer. I graduated in
Italy and I spent a bit of time there working
as an engineer. in the sustainability sector
and my career actually really started from looking
to like a waste management and then actually
shift to more like energy efficiency project.
It was actually in 2008 when in Italy and also
like in Europe there was like you know a big
like shift in terms like a regulation for buildings
So there was a lot of, like, work to do, a lot
of services that, you know, various companies
and also a lot of, like, a public sector were
starting to be interested, you know, to have,
like, buildings more energy efficient. And then
actually, you know, I decided that Italy was
maybe too small for me, so I just, like, you
know, decided to do a bit more experience outside
Italy and spend a bit of time in Australia, and
then actually I... came in the UK, where I really
started to work for a facility management company
and the role and the purpose was the same, always
in terms like energy efficiency, energy management,
environment, and working for one specific university,
the University of London. And it was actually
a great experience, you know, because I was on
site and see the project, you know, happening
and, you know, the energy saving and the carbon
saving to be, you know, to be really like, you
know, in the real world rather than like, you
know, on a paper or on design. And then actually
CELIC, you know, come as an opportunity and it
was great, you know, to, because... The public
sector, the carbonisation scheme, was really
like a, since like a phase one. For me, it's
been a great experience. So at Salix, your job,
if we can explain it to our listeners who might
not know, I mean, you've moved from waste management
to energy efficiency, but at Salix, it's your
job to support the technical teams with due diligence.
for grant and loan applications, as well as assisting
governments in developing new policies and decarbonisation
schemes. So that seems pretty vast. You're talking
about policy. We're talking about due diligence.
How do you kind of weigh that up? What's the
balance in the role that you're doing? How much
of your time is spent working alongside departments
on policy, for example? I mean, actually, there
is, I would say, a big chunk of time that we
spent with the department to really do a bit
of analysis and also to give a bit of feedback
to them in terms of their analysis because the
policy is pretty much with the department in
terms of the design of the policy. And the work
that we do with them is just to help them to
validate what is actually they have come up as
a kind of changing criteria based on the previous
experience, based on the data that we provide
them. So there is a lot of interaction for the
policy. And we look into the technical bit. We
look at what actually can be done in terms of
to achieve more carbon with less money. and sometimes
it's just like a guess in terms like you know
we use like the data for do some modeling But
still, actually, you know, we don't really, it's
difficult to predict, you know, what is actually
would be the change in behaviour of the client.
So it's always like a kind of like a cycle in
each of the, you know, PSTS especially phases.
Thank you. Because the public sector decarbonisation
scheme is a major part of the work that you do
here at Salix. And you've been here now, what,
three, four years? Four years. Four years. And
you've been working very closely with the department
on the evolution of that scheme. One thing that's
not changing. it seems, is the urgency to address
climate action, climate change. How do you think
that policy, that scheme has evolved over the
last few years? I mean, actually, the big actual
change that I've seen across all phases of PSDS
was to really have a more... a bit like a more
information and data during the assessment in
order to really make sure that the project that
has actually funded or actually you know sound
since the beginning although even actually even
though there is always like some exemption but
i've seen actually the big shift was more like
you know to to the greater like a level of data
and you know understanding at the really early
stage of of the process and then actually the
shift was also like from like you know a scheme
like in phase one where there was not really
like a priority in terms of like you know the
project to more something like towards like you
know the the really like the the the transformation
you know the decarbonization so the focus on
gas boiler removals end of life. So this was
actually perhaps the big change between phase
one and phase two and then actually all the others.
And then actually the other one, of course, in
phase four is the competitive model. Because
the first come, first serve kind of like approach
doesn't really allow to try to drive down the
cost. of, you know, of decarbonisation. So with
the phase four, like with like a semi -competitive
model, the department, you know, is trying to,
you know, to really, you know, to really to achieve
more carbon with like, you know, less money.
So to create like competition and try to, you
know, to reduce like, you know, to push the market,
you know, to find like a solution to, you know,
to reduce the cost of low carbon solutions. So
that has been quite a change over the last few
years in that scheme. And sustainability, can
we talk about that for a moment? Because it's
such a big word, isn't it, when people talk about
sustainability? I'm not sure if everybody or
all of us completely understand what it is, but
you're a sustainability expert. And perhaps you
could explain to us what that means and what
do you mean by sustainability? Some people might
just say it's just environmentalism and brush
this aside. an explanation, if we can, of what
you mean by sustainability and how is that helping
you drive your goals here at Salix and perhaps
also in your own career and your own life? Thank
you. I mean, actually, for me, in terms of like
a definition, sustainability means like, you
know, to actually progress in a way that is actually
sustainable. um this means like a different you
know different like um approach like to to progressions
and to yeah to progressions like you know you
need to be really mindful about like um to grow
the economy of course but also like uh with some
focus around like you know what is actually this
means for the environment, for example. What
does it mean in our everyday lives, though, when
you're talking about growing the economy? We
all talk about we want to be more sustainable,
sustainable. What does that mean for me? It's
like the action that we do. We need to always
think it's actually sustainable for the environment,
but not only, but also for the economy. An example
could be I don't know, like a shift from electric
car, you know, from like, you know, fuel car
to electric cars, which is something that, you
know, it's going to be more sustainable potentially,
you know, to use electric cars. But this change
can really, cannot happen in one day or in one
year. You need to have, you know, allow the system
to really, you know, embrace like the change
because there will be an implication about people,
economy, jobs. So all this kind of decarbonisation
actions must be sustainable for every angle of
our world. And this means that people still need
to have a job. The environment needs to be actually
protected. So this is actually perhaps the meaning
of sustainability. Thank you, because it seems
it is a good thing to do, but is there a danger
that it's become a bit of a buzzword? Everybody
wants to be sustainable. We say that this is
sustainable. We're doing this in a sustainable
way. Is there a danger that it's overused? Yeah,
potentially, potentially there is this danger.
But it is always in the back of the mind of the
people to try to do small actions every day in
a sustainable way. So an example in everyday
life is actually your waste. For example, in
my family, I tend to recycle everything, like
100%, which I believe is actually a sustainable
kind of action to do. Yeah, I agree with you.
Perhaps, you know, this must be remind in people's
mind, you know, in terms of like a definition.
I mean, this leads me on to my next question,
because you've got this background in waste management.
And it seems very pertinent that you're now working
on energy efficiency measures and scrutinizing
those measures across the public sector, because
we've got these incredibly ambitious goals that
we need to reach. We all know, I mean, I think
it's a general agreement or 97 % of scientists
know that we've got global warming and the temperatures
have heated up over the last 30 years. That is
a fact. But we're continuing. Here we are, 2025,
and we're continuing to fill up landfills. Our
air is carbon saturated. But so how do you balance
up the desire to be sustainable and the economics?
That's a big question. It's a really difficult
question. Essentially, what I've been saying,
to be sustainable doesn't mean that you need
to switch off your light at home and just live
in the dark. You need to find a solution. you
know, find technical solutions sometimes to improve
what, you know, what we got. So LED, for example,
was like, you know, like a good actually kind
of like, you know, innovation. So LED consume
much less than like a normal, like a light. So
this means like we can keep like the light on,
but we can use much less. So it's looking for
those innovative... solutions. And while we're
talking about technology, we look a lot, we talk
a lot at Salix, certainly, about heat pumps,
ground source heat pumps, air source heat pumps.
We're talking about building management control
systems, being more efficient in the way that
temperatures are controlled. And I know that
you're a real expert in those areas. But what
else could we also touched on geothermal? I think
we also talk about geothermal. But in terms of
innovation and technology, presumably we can't
go fast enough in this arena. Yeah, I mean, yes.
I mean, for the target, you know, we got in terms
of like policies. Yeah, exactly. You know, to
innovate takes time. And also, you know, a period
of time that you also need to test in the new
innovation. I mean, perhaps, you know, we can
use, like, examples of where, you know, the innovation
was actually, you know, really taken board and
really, you know, applied in a very quick way,
but still actually will need, like, some time
before, you know, we'll be able to, you know,
to apply. Perhaps, you know, if every stakeholder
in the grant scheme are actually involved and,
you know, are actually really interested, you
know, to make this process, faster and an example
could be like you know the department or uh yeah
that's nuts for example around innovation they
can really try to put in place like some kind
of mechanism where actually new solution also
like more funding has been given to like to you
know to innovate like in a solution but also
like you know to fast track the implementation
of this like a new technology new solution so
Potentially this is possible, it just needs a
change. It needs change. And I'm incredibly inspired,
and I'm not an engineer and I'm not a scientist,
but I do go along and look at some of these projects
and I meet the people behind them, the really
inspiring people across the public sector who
are leading big hospital projects or school projects,
university projects. And I do see a lot of energy
and a lot of commitment. and excitement around
the kind of technology. Do you see that every
day in your job? Are you surprised by the solutions
people are coming up with? Do you think we're
coming up with those solutions fast enough? How
does that impact your work, what you see, and
also what you see when you go out on site? Okay,
so to be honest, Since phase one, PSTS, PSTS
really pushed a lot in terms of innovation because
when actually there is a lot of money available
for projects and there is a lot of interest in
the public sector, but also the private sector
in terms of to really use this money also for
business, but also to create something that is
going to work. So yeah, we have seen a lot in
the first... two or three years of PSDS. And
now it's actually, you know, what we have seen
actually big actually changes, big actually innovation,
big actually new technology. But then actually
now, you know, the curve in terms of like, you
know, the curve of innovation is flattening a
little bit. What we have seen recently, and I
see sometimes this in the project, especially
for phase four, which is still actually not in
the assessment, so we haven't really seen the
details of the project that we received in terms
of applications submitted, but what we received
in terms of queries before the submission, there
was some interesting solution in terms of, not
just on... equipment, like a new innovation equipment,
but the way how this will be setting within like,
you know, the buildings to try to achieve more
carbon with less money. So an example could be
like, you know, to introduce more like heat storage
within the plant room. So like having this means
like having like a smaller heat pumps that can
work like with with like other equipment in the
plant room. So we see something in terms of like
innovation recently. And of course, when we go
inside, we can see, you know, the solution that
has been actually part of the PSDS awarded project.
Super. So we've talked about some of the design
and engineering solutions. And as an engineer,
you know that the built environment is responsible
for about 40 % of the UK's carbon emissions.
So we can reduce... carbon emissions in the build.
And we've talked about some of the ways that
can be done to achieve that. But as an engineer
with a huge amount of experience, what else could
you be doing? I know you're very keen on sharing
knowledge and you write for various publications.
But what else do you think you should be doing,
whether you're doing it at Salix or whether you're
doing it as somebody who cares about the future
and the way we move forward on this agenda? My
personal view is that I got, like, you know,
in my, I mean, in terms of, like, a goal, personal
goal, professional goal, I tend to, you know,
I really actually enjoy, like, you know, the
solution that's called, like, passive action
solution. This means, like, you know, to really
focus on installation first. Same as, actually,
PSTS. but with a big focus in order to really
reduce the energy demand of the building. So
in that way, the building would be quite sustainable
because regardless of the type of heat system
you put in the building, this building will always
reduce consume less energy. So this is, for me,
it's quite important because, you know, now we
actually, we got like, you know, the shift between
fossil fuel to electric, but now, you know, we
got like the challenge to really make sure there
is enough load to, you know, to guarantee energy
in the buildings that run like on electricity.
But with that kind of solution, you probably
will reduce the demand anyway, regardless of
the energy. It can be like a different energy
in 20 years. Maybe there will be like a shift
into hydrogen, who knows? But the buildings will
require less energy anyway, little energy. So
to me, that should be actually the direction
for the next 20, 40 years, really to try to get
as much as possible you know, building, really
like, you know, to focus on the passive element.
The passive element is the element that doesn't
move in the building, so insulation, fabric,
rather than the active, which is, you know, the
mechanical part. And are you finding in projects
that come to you, by the time they come to you,
people are taking that approach? Some of them,
some of them, but very little. Perhaps they use
the same framework. that has been actually built
for the passive kind of solution, but still actually
not that much. But it's a lot of focus on system,
like on the mechanical part or the electrical
part. We have seen a lot of good insulation projects,
like windows, fabric, but the focus is still
on the mechanical bit. And there's a big emphasis,
I think, in your work on that whole building
approach, isn't there, overall? What does that
mean? It means like, yeah, exactly. So you don't
just assess your building for your heating system.
You assess the capabilities of your building
to really retain the heat. So you start from
the fabric to understand if there is an intervention
needed. Sometimes it's actually obvious, like
a single glazed windows are really like very
poor in terms of like heat, to retain heat. So
the double glazing or the triple glazing is the
solution. Add like external wall insulation can
help. And then actually after you got like you're
building in a good actually shape in terms of
like able to maintain the heat. then you can
look to the heating system, like the electrical,
the mechanical bit. But also the whole building
approach means to make sure that there is also
some element of renewable energy. So if you can
apply PV panels that can really support the help
with the demand of electricity for the building,
or like solar thermal. So you've got like a different
solution. So to look like the building like as
a holistic way and try to get like the best quality
buildings that you can have and not just like
a focus on one element rather than the other.
We're very much focused on what we're doing here
at Salix and we're very much focused obviously
on UK carbon emissions. How do you feel when
we think we're doing everything we can, but we're
also comparing ourselves with China, India, the
United States, and looking at their carbon emissions,
how positive do you feel about the work here
and how it compares to other nations? To be honest,
I'm very positive. And I'm actually glad that
I decided to move to the UK because... really
like it was probably the place where actually
really you can do something about because the
policy really like you know support this kind
of like you know um goal um so definitely in
the uk can be a good example for for the world
and i'm hoping that this is going to be the case
um i don't know how much you know how much is
actually has been done to try to know to To show,
to present, you know, to really like advertise.
Shout out about what you're doing. Yes. So it's
Salix. You come into work every day. We've got
a real flavour of what drives you and your passion
and how you feel about the technology, etc. But
what, so it's kind of a silly question, really,
if I asked you what most despise you about your
work at Salix and within the public sector? I
mean, actually, people in Salix are great. So,
my team is actually, you know, I'm quite really
happy, you know, to support the team in terms
of, like, you know, to achieve what the department
wants us to achieve in terms of, like, you know,
the schemes. My team is actually, you know, is
made by young, actually, members that are really
keen in terms of, like, you know, to really make
this world a better place. So very focused on
sustainability, energy, efficiency, all the policies.
So it's very driven in that way. They feel like
the purpose in this. And this has actually really
helped me myself also to come every day in the
office or working from home with them because
I can feel it, this kind of sense of purpose.
And also the public sector, I mean, actually
to do something for, you know, for the society.
It's definitely something that for me, you know,
make myself like, you know, happy to wake up
in the morning to do something for our society
rather than like, you know, just for myself,
you know, to have like a purpose is definitely...
So you feel like we're certainly on a mission.
Yes, we are. We say we're on a mission to save
the planet here at Salix. And those public sector
buildings, of course, saving on those... carbon
emissions and decreasing that carbon footprint.
But of course, a lot of those buildings that
you are initially looking at, whether it's through
applications and throughout your dialogue with
these projects, is a lot of these buildings are
being brought to life again, aren't they? They're
being given new leases of life, which has been
inspired by installing energy efficiency measures.
I mean, so many, whether it's leisure centres
that might otherwise possibly have closed, whether
it's libraries that are being given new life,
those community buildings are indeed becoming
a greater use, aren't they, across the country?
Yeah. Thanks to these projects. Yeah, exactly,
exactly. I agree, I agree. Definitely, it's not
just like about energy or carbon saving, but
also like to give back to the community, like
good facilities where actually people can...
can spend time you know meeting like in a place
so definitely this is it's going to help like
not just the the carbon emission but also like
the social aspect feel we were at a school recently
actually and the head teacher said now we've
got better controlled temperatures thanks to
these the energy saving measures which were funded
by, happened to be funded by the public sector
decarbonisation scheme. She said now the children,
instead of shuffling around with their coats
on, coats off, feeling hot, feeling cold, they
can just get on with the job of learning. So
it makes it a better environment. That must be
one of the reasons why you come into work every
day. OK, my final question today, Davide, is
we've got six or years less to meet the UN sustainable
goals, development goals. Do you feel positive
or negative about that? Something in the middle,
maybe. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for
your time today, Davide. That's absolutely superb
that you've taken time out to speak to us for
our podcast series. We appreciate your time and
it gives us such a great insight into your work
here at Salix as part of our decarbonisation
dialogue. There can be no doubt that climate
change is the biggest challenge of our time.
Today, we must reduce greenhouse gas emissions
to slow global warming. Today, we must act for
tomorrow, adjusting our lifestyles to current
and future impacts of climate change. Today,
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