WEBVTT 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:10.490 This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast 00:00:10.490 --> 00:00:14.550 from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, 00:00:14.630 --> 00:00:16.809 delivering on climate change, our collective 00:00:16.809 --> 00:00:19.530 challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and I believe 00:00:19.530 --> 00:00:21.670 that the best way to communicate a message is 00:00:21.670 --> 00:00:23.489 by being passionate about what you are talking 00:00:23.489 --> 00:00:25.910 about. Through that passion, I believe you take 00:00:25.910 --> 00:00:28.329 people with you and create action using your 00:00:28.329 --> 00:00:30.550 influence to make change and make a difference. 00:00:31.070 --> 00:00:34.909 Our task today is to get all of us to net zero. 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:40.240 My guest today is Alison Anderson. Alison is 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.859 a professor at the Society, the School of Society 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:46.700 and Culture, Faculty of Arts, Humanities and 00:00:46.700 --> 00:00:49.939 Business at the University of Plymouth. Alison 00:00:49.939 --> 00:00:52.479 has done a huge amount of research and focusing 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:54.780 on risk communication, environmental issues and 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:57.740 health. Alison is the author of Media, Culture 00:00:57.740 --> 00:01:00.439 and Environment and Media, Environment and the 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.299 Network Society. And Alison, as I say, is Professor. 00:01:04.859 --> 00:01:08.159 at University of Plymouth. She's a founding member 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:09.780 of the International Environmental Communication 00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:12.920 Association and former editor -in -chief of the 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:14.900 Rutledge Journal Environmental Communication. 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:17.959 Currently an editorial board member of Environmental 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:20.620 Communication on the International Advisory Board 00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:23.340 of Environmental Media. At Plymouth, she is the 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:25.739 research lead for the Environment, Culture and 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:28.739 Society Research Group. At master's level, she 00:01:28.739 --> 00:01:32.120 teaches a module on media, culture and the environment 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:35.340 on the MA Environmental Humanities programme. 00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:38.560 Welcome to Alison today. Thank you very much 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:41.180 for your time. Thank you. I'm really pleased 00:01:41.180 --> 00:01:44.340 to be here and looking forward to this conversation. 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.480 Let's start by hearing a little bit about your 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:50.939 career. You're a published author and an expert 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:53.719 in environmental communication. Tell us about 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.409 your work at Plymouth. your students there too. 00:01:58.670 --> 00:02:01.450 Thank you. Well, very pleased to be taking part 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:06.109 in this podcast. I mean, my career goes back 00:02:06.109 --> 00:02:11.389 really to the 1980s, actually, when I first started 00:02:11.389 --> 00:02:15.250 studying the topic of how environmental issues 00:02:15.250 --> 00:02:18.150 are covered in the media and how we can improve 00:02:18.150 --> 00:02:23.189 communication around environmental issues. And 00:02:23.189 --> 00:02:25.629 actually, it was a really interesting time in 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:29.889 the 1980s because it was around the time that 00:02:29.889 --> 00:02:37.150 Mrs. Thatcher made her famous green speech. And 00:02:37.150 --> 00:02:40.370 suddenly the media started getting interested 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:43.409 in covering environmental issues. And it just 00:02:43.409 --> 00:02:45.389 so happened at that point I was beginning my 00:02:45.389 --> 00:02:52.060 PhD. And so I had the opportunity to interview 00:02:52.060 --> 00:02:56.719 journalists and a whole range of other people, 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:03.680 media specialists in NGOs who wanted to ensure 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.580 that the issues were gaining sufficient coverage. 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:12.819 At that point, there were very few people, very 00:03:12.819 --> 00:03:16.159 few academics who were researching these issues. 00:03:17.259 --> 00:03:20.580 And as I said, it was fortuitous that I happened 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:24.020 to be doing it at that time. And then by the 00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:27.939 time you got to the early 1990s, suddenly the 00:03:27.939 --> 00:03:30.080 environment wasn't at the top of the agenda. 00:03:30.539 --> 00:03:35.960 And we had the economic recession in the early 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.699 90s. We also had the war in the Gulf and it kind 00:03:39.699 --> 00:03:44.159 of just dropped off the agenda. And what I found 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.840 throughout my career in looking at these issues 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.099 is that, you know, at certain points, it's very 00:03:51.099 --> 00:03:54.379 difficult to keep momentum. And there have been 00:03:54.379 --> 00:03:58.379 various. peaks and troughs in coverage of the 00:03:58.379 --> 00:04:02.139 environment and also in public attention to environmental 00:04:02.139 --> 00:04:06.419 issues as other more pressing issues occur. I 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:13.539 mean, even if you look at COP 23 in Glasgow in 00:04:13.539 --> 00:04:18.860 2021, in November, around that time, Ipsos Mori 00:04:18.860 --> 00:04:22.449 did a poll which found that The environment was 00:04:22.449 --> 00:04:24.410 a top issue that people were saying they were 00:04:24.410 --> 00:04:30.750 concerned about. And yet by January, it's fallen 00:04:30.750 --> 00:04:35.470 dramatically. And coronavirus and the economy 00:04:35.470 --> 00:04:38.490 were the key issues that the public were saying 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:42.589 they were concerned about. So, you know, as I 00:04:42.589 --> 00:04:45.410 say, throughout my career, I've found it, you 00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:49.129 know. In one way, fascinating, but also very 00:04:49.129 --> 00:04:52.490 concerning, you know, because we need to keep 00:04:52.490 --> 00:04:55.810 environmental issues and we need to keep net 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:58.889 zero high on the agenda. And it's a real challenge 00:04:58.889 --> 00:05:01.759 to do that. Thank you. That's very interesting 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:04.399 in terms of the 1980s because I also remember 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.160 I was working in newspapers in the 1980s and 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.040 I launched a green page because I thought that 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.339 was where the conversation was at. And the green 00:05:14.339 --> 00:05:16.639 page did last for quite some time until I was 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:18.740 told by my editor at the time that there wasn't 00:05:18.740 --> 00:05:22.319 such interest in green matters and sustainability. 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:25.000 So really interesting to hear that perspective. 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.720 So here we are today. We're looking at massive 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.529 challenges. as we face climate change. We're 00:05:31.529 --> 00:05:34.790 looking at inequality, pandemics, resource pressures. 00:05:35.189 --> 00:05:38.910 In fact, we see it on our news every day. It's 00:05:38.910 --> 00:05:43.230 the very threat to humanity. So, Alison, in your 00:05:43.230 --> 00:05:46.470 view, is there a joined approach now for businesses, 00:05:46.629 --> 00:05:49.589 governments and us? That's you and me, all of 00:05:49.589 --> 00:05:52.550 us. Talk about a joined up approach. Is that 00:05:52.550 --> 00:05:56.329 possible? Well, I certainly think, you know, 00:05:56.329 --> 00:06:00.870 we need a joined up. approach to this and currently 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.930 we haven't got a joined up approach and I think 00:06:04.930 --> 00:06:07.889 in the past there have been huge problems caused 00:06:07.889 --> 00:06:12.009 by inconsistent messaging and lack of coordination 00:06:12.009 --> 00:06:17.310 you know between government departments different 00:06:17.310 --> 00:06:21.050 policy areas not all pulling in the same direction 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:25.959 problem with the lack of clear mission and a 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:30.180 lack of a clear public engagement strategy and 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:34.620 I think those things are absolutely vital if 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:37.339 we are to you know really sort of make progress 00:06:37.339 --> 00:06:39.680 because at the moment you know we are falling 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.779 behind other European countries we're just simply 00:06:43.779 --> 00:06:49.100 not doing enough despite the measures that were 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:52.120 announced. you know, in the budget, which are 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.720 obviously very welcome. But, you know, we still 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:58.560 need to really ramp things up and do much more 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:02.259 if we're to actually meet our net zero targets. 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:05.779 And I think, you know, there's obviously a role 00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:13.120 for businesses to play a key part in this, but 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.839 they need much more direction from the government. 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:21.839 And, you know, in case and incentives as well, 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.060 because, you know, in many cases, they're kind 00:07:25.060 --> 00:07:29.139 of having to make decisions that kind of go against 00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:31.720 their financial interests in the short term. 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.860 But obviously in the long term, you know, that 00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:39.600 won't be the case. And the public also are absolutely 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:45.240 vital as well to bring along. But, you know, 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.899 with the public, we know that there's a huge 00:07:48.899 --> 00:07:51.399 amount of concern about climate change and that 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.480 goes across all demographics. It's not just young 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:59.379 people, it's older people as well. But information 00:07:59.379 --> 00:08:03.899 alone is not sufficient to actually bring about 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:06.360 the kind of scale of change that we actually 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:12.769 need. And so, you know, and also, I think. Looking 00:08:12.769 --> 00:08:17.430 at, you know, who is actually making the change 00:08:17.430 --> 00:08:23.089 towards net zero. Women in particular, I think, 00:08:23.110 --> 00:08:28.290 are and more highly educated people. are more 00:08:28.290 --> 00:08:33.429 likely to say that they will play a part in net 00:08:33.429 --> 00:08:36.190 zero and are making changes. So, for example, 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:40.250 there's some evidence that EV uptake is higher 00:08:40.250 --> 00:08:44.250 amongst women. Women are more likely to switch 00:08:44.250 --> 00:08:50.490 to a plant -based or vegetarian diet. And I think 00:08:50.490 --> 00:08:56.120 part of the problem is you know, notions of masculinity, 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.179 which perhaps, you know, are being challenged 00:08:59.179 --> 00:09:04.000 by, you know, some of the behaviour changes that 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.919 we need to occur in order to, you know, move 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:09.370 things forward. Thank you. But we're actually 00:09:09.370 --> 00:09:11.929 looking at large lifestyle changes, aren't we? 00:09:11.990 --> 00:09:14.649 Because when we start to talk about the public's 00:09:14.649 --> 00:09:17.330 appetite for those kind of changes, that's very, 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:19.429 you know, it's fascinating to hear about women. 00:09:19.490 --> 00:09:21.789 And in fact, we're hoping to do a special podcast 00:09:21.789 --> 00:09:24.769 on exactly focusing on women and the role that 00:09:24.769 --> 00:09:28.070 women have to play. But in terms of today and 00:09:28.070 --> 00:09:30.269 changing our lifestyles, we've talked about governments, 00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:33.549 we've talked about business. And as we've said, 00:09:33.649 --> 00:09:36.690 climate change is on our news every single day. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.480 How do you really make sure that people are prepared 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.080 to change? How much are we prepared to change 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.659 and eat less, consume less dairy, eat less meat, 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:51.000 travel less? I mean, we seem to be still flying 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:55.899 all over the world at a whim. And I don't know 00:09:55.899 --> 00:09:59.600 what the demographics of that are. But I would 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.000 say, and I asked you this question when we were 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.080 talking about preparing this podcast, you know, 00:10:04.100 --> 00:10:08.159 are we too rich? I mean, who is making the changes 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:14.019 and how do we get there? Well, at the moment, 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:18.159 you know, it's easier for middle class people, 00:10:18.299 --> 00:10:21.399 I think, to adopt some of the changes that we 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:26.879 need to adopt to move forward. You know, so it 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.039 tends to be middle class people, you know, who 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.419 can afford to buy an electric vehicle. more likely 00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:37.139 to have a driveway or, you know, somewhere to 00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:39.460 leave their car where they can charge their car. 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:43.899 And, you know, there is a danger of, you know, 00:10:43.940 --> 00:10:47.879 polarisation occurring. And obviously that is 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:53.899 being stirred up by some lobby groups who, you 00:10:53.899 --> 00:10:56.159 know, see their interests being threatened by 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:04.039 move to net zero. So I think it's very difficult, 00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:14.419 really, to see how this kind of move could really 00:11:14.419 --> 00:11:20.740 kind of broaden out a bit more without more incentives 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:23.960 being offered to those people who, you know. 00:11:24.460 --> 00:11:27.259 have the least resources and are most disadvantaged. 00:11:27.539 --> 00:11:31.720 And clearly, you know, they shouldn't be overburdened. 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.779 They should actually, you know, be given more 00:11:34.779 --> 00:11:40.019 incentives to actually make changes to, for example, 00:11:40.100 --> 00:11:43.980 their heating at home or whatever it is, or changing 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:47.679 their car. So when we think about some of the 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.299 changes that we've already been encouraged to 00:11:49.299 --> 00:11:51.120 do over the years, and some of it obviously is 00:11:51.549 --> 00:11:53.769 due to legislation, whether it's seatbelt wearing, 00:11:53.909 --> 00:11:57.870 obviously, or eating five a day. For example, 00:11:57.970 --> 00:11:59.429 that's an encouraged, it's not law, but it's 00:11:59.429 --> 00:12:01.090 encouraged. You know, everyone knows that's probably 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.370 a good thing to be doing. Recycling, people are 00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:06.210 being encouraged to recycle. Not sure if we're 00:12:06.210 --> 00:12:10.690 doing it properly. But is it a mix then between 00:12:10.690 --> 00:12:15.690 perhaps legislation or public health messages? 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:20.769 How are we going to really encourage that? make 00:12:20.769 --> 00:12:24.029 it happen? Well, I don't think we can rely on 00:12:24.029 --> 00:12:28.470 the public alone, you know, voluntarily adopting 00:12:28.470 --> 00:12:32.990 these measures. I think it was Lancaster University 00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:37.429 recently found that 84 % of the public said that 00:12:37.429 --> 00:12:42.990 they would be prepared to agree to making substantial 00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:47.279 changes. in order to address, you know, climate 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.519 change. But actually, when it comes down to supporting 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.700 particular measures, that's often a different 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.580 matter. So I think, you know, you certainly need 00:12:56.580 --> 00:13:02.100 a combination of carrots and sticks. And, you 00:13:02.100 --> 00:13:07.019 know, we need to... bring about more regulation, 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:11.600 more taxation. So, you know, interesting if you 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:14.519 look at other countries, Denmark, for example, 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.679 have introduced a tax on red meat. You know, 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:21.659 there are various ways that you can do it in 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:25.620 terms of aviation, you know, a frequent flyer, 00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:31.669 taxation or levy, I should say. And all those 00:13:31.669 --> 00:13:35.070 kinds of measures, I think, you know, can be 00:13:35.070 --> 00:13:38.090 effective. They certainly won't be popular. But, 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:41.429 you know, if we're going to make any real progress, 00:13:41.690 --> 00:13:45.929 those kind of things are absolutely needed. We 00:13:45.929 --> 00:13:48.690 certainly can't rely on, you know, the public 00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:52.950 to make small changes here and there without 00:13:52.950 --> 00:13:58.820 either being incentivised or. certain regulations 00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:01.320 being introduced, you know, to force people to 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.740 make particular changes. Because we recently 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:11.379 saw the dreadful flooding instances in Valencia 00:14:11.379 --> 00:14:14.860 and we have got climate change on our, as I say, 00:14:14.899 --> 00:14:20.259 we've got it on our news every day. Is that enough, 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:22.700 do you think? I mean, are we getting the message, 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.799 Alison? Well, I don't think we are getting the 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:31.519 message, no. You know, it almost seems as though 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:37.240 we are sleepwalking into disaster in a way. You 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:42.720 know, you see these images on the screen and, 00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:45.700 you know, for a moment they seem shocking, but 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:48.059 then people, I think, quickly move on to the 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:52.580 next thing and it's forgotten. You know, I mean, 00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:54.929 there is a danger of... people becoming a bit 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:59.529 kind of desensitized to it as well and what research 00:14:59.529 --> 00:15:04.549 indicates is that unless you are personally impacted 00:15:04.549 --> 00:15:07.649 by climate change for example if you have a terrible 00:15:07.649 --> 00:15:10.610 flood in your village or your town wherever you 00:15:10.610 --> 00:15:15.789 live or wherever you know often you still see 00:15:15.789 --> 00:15:18.070 it as this thing that's really affecting other 00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:20.730 people in other countries and is not really having 00:15:20.730 --> 00:15:25.799 any significant impact on your own life okay 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:30.879 and i think it's you know you can bombard people 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.179 with as many facts and figures as you like but 00:15:34.179 --> 00:15:37.200 that's not necessarily going to change you know 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.620 it's actually connecting emotionally with people 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:45.179 that is absolutely key and also i think as well 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:50.840 emphasizing the co -benefits of taking action 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.080 you know there are enormous co -benefits um in 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.059 terms of health and well -being um you know talking 00:15:58.059 --> 00:16:01.120 about things like changing your diet um you know 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.700 even not necessarily moving to a plant -based 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:09.299 diet but you know um eating less meat for example 00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:13.440 um walking rather than taking the car all the 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.399 time It's interesting what you're saying about 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.179 facts and figures. Facts and figures, we're always 00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:22.799 collating as much as we can versus that feeling. 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:25.940 the way people feel and that emotion and how 00:16:25.940 --> 00:16:28.740 you connect to people. So let's turn this around 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:32.779 before we get too gloomy. And let's talk about 00:16:32.779 --> 00:16:35.779 your students, because I always think there is 00:16:35.779 --> 00:16:39.259 hope in those students, you know, and hope for 00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:42.700 the future. Tell me about how your students think, 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.440 because you're there every day at Plymouth and 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.740 you're meeting these people. How are they engaged 00:16:47.740 --> 00:16:51.259 in this debate? And what are you telling them? 00:16:53.020 --> 00:16:56.620 Well, yes, students, I think, are generally highly 00:16:56.620 --> 00:17:00.259 engaged in the debate and very, very concerned 00:17:00.259 --> 00:17:03.899 about the climate crisis. And clearly, you know, 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:05.680 they are the generation that are going to be 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.180 the most impacted. I've been recently doing some 00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:15.099 research actually with secondary school children 00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:18.980 looking at their awareness of climate change. 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.160 their experiences of climate education at school. 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:31.259 And it's been quite surprising in a way just 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:37.559 how engaged they are about climate change. And 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:39.900 yet what they're saying is that they feel really 00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:47.940 disempowered. change education that they receive 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:51.339 is mainly kind of siloed in gcse geography and 00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:54.019 science but they're not really hearing anything 00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:57.240 much about climate change in in other lessons 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.720 and of course geography is optional anyway so 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:03.279 a lot of children aren't aren't actually hearing 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:07.099 about anything to do with climate change other 00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:12.299 than in science and what they also told us was 00:18:12.299 --> 00:18:17.839 that it was concentrating on causes and impacts 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:23.640 but not covering solutions which is very concerning 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.880 um because you know we know from a whole series 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.460 of different studies that you know there's a 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.940 lot of anxiety amongst young people about um 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:38.009 you know climate change and unless they're actually, 00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:40.869 you know, given messages of hope at school and 00:18:40.869 --> 00:18:44.950 shown examples of what actually is working. And, 00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:48.410 you know, we are making, you know, despite needing 00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:51.970 to go further, we are making progress. And, you 00:18:51.970 --> 00:18:56.109 know, there's so many examples, you know, really 00:18:56.109 --> 00:19:00.289 inspiring examples that, you know, young people 00:19:00.289 --> 00:19:03.089 could be taught about at school and yet they're 00:19:03.089 --> 00:19:08.559 not. And, you know, also, I think, The more that 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.500 they're sort of engaged with examples at school 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:16.819 relating to their school building, you know, 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:18.980 a separate example, if their school building 00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:22.920 is being retrofitted, if they're having solar 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.819 panels installed or if they're having an air 00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:28.440 source heat pump or ground source heat pump, 00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:31.759 there are enormous opportunities there for them 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:36.490 to... you know, get involved and, you know, in 00:19:36.490 --> 00:19:39.589 a whole range of different lessons. So, for example, 00:19:39.809 --> 00:19:42.630 in maths they could be calculating, you know, 00:19:42.670 --> 00:19:45.349 the difference in terms of, you know, the energy 00:19:45.349 --> 00:19:49.809 that's being used and that kind of thing. So, 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:52.970 the research that I've been doing is in conjunction 00:19:52.970 --> 00:19:57.009 with the British Science Association. And we 00:19:57.009 --> 00:20:04.589 launched our report in 2023 at the House of Lords 00:20:04.589 --> 00:20:08.130 and have subsequently gone on to make a number 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:11.289 of recommendations about the way in which climate 00:20:11.289 --> 00:20:18.990 education in school needs to change. And following 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:22.809 on from that, I'm now doing some work locally. 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.400 with a museum in Plymouth called The Box, and 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:32.400 looking at how their project, which is based 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.000 very much on a sort of local example of the National 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:41.619 Marine Park here in Plymouth, can be used to 00:20:41.619 --> 00:20:46.980 inspire young people to consider different kind 00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:51.279 of green careers and role models. They're doing 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.660 kind of hands on activities and workshops in 00:20:53.660 --> 00:20:58.539 the museum based around different what they call 00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:03.779 sort of climate citizens. So that could be somebody 00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:07.599 working in a charity to do with the Marine Park 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.519 or it might be a scientist or whoever it is. 00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:14.460 And they really get into, you know, taking on 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:18.140 that kind of role. trying to find a solution 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:22.980 to a problem in a creative way. That's fascinating. 00:21:23.299 --> 00:21:26.480 I'm fortunate through my work here at Salix to... 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:29.700 to go in and visit schools that have undergone 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:33.220 a decarbonisation project. So they've done exactly 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:35.380 as you've said, they've installed energy efficiency 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:38.779 saving measures, which obviously saves on carbon, 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:43.039 but also can save on bills too. So that's heat 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.460 pumps, insulation, solar, etc. And the children 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:51.380 are, you're absolutely right, they are very engaged 00:21:51.380 --> 00:21:56.440 and very knowledgeable. In my experience, when 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.319 I have listened to the children, they don't accept 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:04.440 that this cannot happen. Recently, a school child 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.180 said to me, well, because I was asking the question 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:09.359 about what would you, if you were at COP29, what 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.700 would you do? What would you say if you were 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.000 at that table? And they said, well, we can't 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.539 afford not to change. We can't afford not to 00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.039 do this. And these are from primary school children, 00:22:19.059 --> 00:22:20.519 actually. And I know you've been working, obviously, 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.440 with secondary school children. So there is a 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:27.299 lot of passion. And I think it's at our, peril 00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:30.619 if we ignore those voices so that's the British 00:22:30.619 --> 00:22:33.759 Science Association fascinating work going on 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:35.579 there thank you very much Alison for sharing 00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:39.339 that now I'm not to want to catch you out in 00:22:39.339 --> 00:22:42.920 any way but I have to move on to you personally 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.740 I know that you've worked at Monash University 00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:50.299 over in Australia which is quite a few air miles 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:53.799 over there but you personally have you made any 00:22:53.799 --> 00:23:00.600 significant Well, yes, in terms of diet. And 00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:06.059 I've been vegetarian for a long time. I actually, 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.119 when I met my husband in the 1980s, he was actually 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:14.759 a vegan at the time, which was very, very rare. 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:19.400 I remember, you know, people being very perplexed 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.579 about what to serve him, you know, when he went 00:23:22.579 --> 00:23:28.880 to different places. And I was meat eater at 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.940 the time when we first met so we compromised 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:35.059 and went vegetarian and then more recently my 00:23:35.059 --> 00:23:38.900 husband has changed back to being vegan and I'm 00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:41.940 I wouldn't say I'm completely vegan but I'm almost 00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:48.119 vegan so not completely and then in terms of 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:54.279 things like you know measures to do with our 00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:57.680 house. We've installed solar panels. We've got 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.180 battery modules now. So we store up the energy 00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:05.660 and then it goes back to the grid, you know, 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:13.099 when there's a surplus of energy. We've got quite 00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:15.920 a large garden. So we've been fortunate to be 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:20.740 able to plant trees, have composting, chickens. 00:24:23.339 --> 00:24:31.079 We changed our bank to a sustainable bank. And 00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:38.279 what we try to do is to walk anywhere, you know, 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.680 that's within sort of five miles range. Obviously, 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.380 if we're travelling beyond that, then we've got 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:49.529 an electric vehicle, so we use that. But it's 00:24:49.529 --> 00:24:52.630 very difficult because I think, you know, certainly 00:24:52.630 --> 00:24:55.630 as an academic, you know, sometimes I haven't 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:59.029 actually been to an overseas conference for quite 00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:02.190 a long time now. But I certainly used to in the 00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:04.690 past go to lots of conferences. And obviously 00:25:04.690 --> 00:25:06.990 my role in Monash meant I had to go all the way 00:25:06.990 --> 00:25:12.440 to Australia. You know, it's very difficult. 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:17.740 I feel very sort of guilty increasingly, I think, 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:22.220 about that kind of travel. And I still do fly. 00:25:22.460 --> 00:25:25.000 I can't, you know, I can't pretend, you know, 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.900 but. I certainly do try to limit my travel much 00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:32.740 more than I did in the past. And what I find 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:36.000 now with a lot of academic conferences is that 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.279 you quite often have an option where you don't 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.099 actually have to go to the location, which is 00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:46.359 great. And I think particularly, you know, over 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:50.660 the COVID pandemic, people realised that actually 00:25:50.660 --> 00:25:54.380 you didn't really need to always attend all these 00:25:54.380 --> 00:26:00.880 conferences. So much can be achieved online, 00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:06.819 which I think is really good. thing that that 00:26:06.819 --> 00:26:09.160 happened that's one of the the benefits i think 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:11.059 exactly that has been good for our planet and 00:26:11.059 --> 00:26:12.980 and so many of us you're absolutely right for 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:16.099 work we have to travel academics you you you 00:26:16.099 --> 00:26:18.940 you often have as you as you say you don't have 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:21.599 to be there but it's always good face to face 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.000 obviously in building those relationships and 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.599 doing that research that you do and many of us 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.140 now have families in various continents and it's 00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:30.859 very hard isn't it to avoid Getting on that plane. 00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:34.079 So thank you very much. Some huge lifestyle changes 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.619 that you've made to your life personally. So 00:26:36.619 --> 00:26:40.079 thank you very much for sharing that. In terms 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.980 of your career, it's fascinating to hear about 00:26:42.980 --> 00:26:46.819 your work with the schools. But what is next? 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:48.799 You've had a highly successful career to date. 00:26:48.859 --> 00:26:51.160 You're a published author, but you're obviously 00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:54.660 hugely ambitious. So can you give us a little 00:26:54.660 --> 00:27:02.250 bit of a flavour of what next? Well, I've almost 00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:06.289 completed editing a new handbook, actually. It's 00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:09.089 a Routledge Handbook of Climate Crisis Communication, 00:27:09.329 --> 00:27:14.390 which brings together academics from a whole 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:17.990 range of different disciplines, so psychology, 00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:23.009 sociology, geography, media and communication 00:27:23.009 --> 00:27:28.119 studies, all looking at... some of the challenges 00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.220 and opportunities involved in communicating the 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:36.079 climate crisis. And that should be coming out, 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:40.960 I think, around sort of May next year. So I'm 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.700 excited to actually see that come together because 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:49.460 I've been working on editing it with a co -author 00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:54.910 at the LSE for... number of years now really 00:27:54.910 --> 00:27:58.630 so it'll be exciting to see the project completed 00:27:58.630 --> 00:28:03.509 and I'm going on to be doing more sort of policy 00:28:03.509 --> 00:28:10.869 related work around climate education and developing 00:28:10.869 --> 00:28:14.269 the work that I mentioned earlier with the box 00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:16.609 and what I'm hoping is that we can really sort 00:28:16.609 --> 00:28:21.009 of scale up climate education so I think as important 00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:25.680 as the work that's being done already in schools 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:29.799 and I'm suggesting that actually we need to embed 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:34.220 climate change right across the curriculum, across 00:28:34.220 --> 00:28:38.859 different subject areas. I'm also working on 00:28:38.859 --> 00:28:44.059 the topic of media or digital literacy and critical 00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:48.579 thinking because I think that's absolutely fundamental 00:28:48.579 --> 00:28:52.000 and something that isn't really being covered 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.839 on the curriculum at the moment. And particularly 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.640 if you look at climate change, one of the barriers, 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:02.700 I think, is the amount of misinformation and 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:04.859 deliberate disinformation that's circulating, 00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:09.079 particularly on social media platforms. And you 00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:13.380 hear this in all sorts of debates where people 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:20.579 are just not questioning. false information about, 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.480 you know, whether it's EV cars or whether it's 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.660 switching to a plant based diet, not actually 00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:31.119 seeking out reputable sources, but just kind 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.700 of repeating, you know, what they see on social 00:29:34.700 --> 00:29:38.950 media. And this is being fuelled by some of the 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:42.890 lobby groups whose interests are being challenged 00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:49.490 by these very changes. And so I think there certainly 00:29:49.490 --> 00:29:53.009 is a need for... much more emphasis on critical 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:56.170 thinking and digital literacy in schools to tackle 00:29:56.170 --> 00:29:58.849 this. And, you know, it's not just this problem, 00:29:58.990 --> 00:30:01.549 but, you know, the whole series of other social 00:30:01.549 --> 00:30:05.509 issues, you know, which are being affected by 00:30:05.509 --> 00:30:08.470 this. And especially with the rise of artificial 00:30:08.470 --> 00:30:11.250 intelligence as well. Thank you. It makes it 00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:13.269 even more pressing. I wondered when that was 00:30:13.269 --> 00:30:14.849 going to come into the conversation, artificial 00:30:14.849 --> 00:30:17.529 intelligence, of course, as well. But there's 00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:19.769 so much food for thought there. Really interesting 00:30:19.769 --> 00:30:21.710 when you're talking about the facts and the figures, 00:30:21.789 --> 00:30:24.309 which are so key and so important because we've 00:30:24.309 --> 00:30:27.990 got challenging net zero targets to meet versus 00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:32.750 the feelings and making people really engaged 00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:35.190 in this whole debate. I don't like to think we're 00:30:35.190 --> 00:30:37.349 sleepwalking into a disaster, but that is what 00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:40.559 you said. Thank you for bringing all that in, 00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:42.859 because, of course, you're working very heavily 00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:45.680 with schools and young people and hopefully integrating 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.339 more of the net zero climate change into the 00:30:49.339 --> 00:30:52.619 curriculum. And I would love to go and visit 00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:54.980 the box in Plymouth, which you've mentioned. 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.660 I've made a note of that. Thank you very much 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:01.400 to Alison. Thank you today, providing such insight 00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.259 as part of our decarbonisation dialogue. There 00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:06.900 can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:09.589 challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce 00:31:09.589 --> 00:31:11.829 greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming. 00:31:12.049 --> 00:31:14.950 Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our 00:31:14.950 --> 00:31:17.470 lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate 00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:20.529 change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom 00:31:20.529 --> 00:31:23.849 to deliver on our climate commitments. And today, 00:31:23.930 --> 00:31:26.990 we must work for tomorrow's world. So thank you 00:31:26.990 --> 00:31:29.950 very much to Alison Anderson. Thank you. Thank 00:31:29.950 --> 00:31:32.490 you. It's been a pleasure. You've been listening 00:31:32.490 --> 00:31:36.170 to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from 00:31:36.170 --> 00:31:39.940 Salix. For more information about our work and 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:43.359 to find more content, please visit salixfinance 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.079 .co .uk forward slash podcasts