This is the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast
from Salix. Welcome to the Decarbonisation Dialogue,
delivering on climate change, our collective
challenge. I am Hannah Walker, and I believe
that the best way to communicate a message is
by being passionate about what you are talking
about. Through that passion, I believe you take
people with you and create action using your
influence to make change and make a difference.
Our task today is to get all of us to net zero.
My guest today is Alison Anderson. Alison is
a professor at the Society, the School of Society
and Culture, Faculty of Arts, Humanities and
Business at the University of Plymouth. Alison
has done a huge amount of research and focusing
on risk communication, environmental issues and
health. Alison is the author of Media, Culture
and Environment and Media, Environment and the
Network Society. And Alison, as I say, is Professor.
at University of Plymouth. She's a founding member
of the International Environmental Communication
Association and former editor -in -chief of the
Rutledge Journal Environmental Communication.
Currently an editorial board member of Environmental
Communication on the International Advisory Board
of Environmental Media. At Plymouth, she is the
research lead for the Environment, Culture and
Society Research Group. At master's level, she
teaches a module on media, culture and the environment
on the MA Environmental Humanities programme.
Welcome to Alison today. Thank you very much
for your time. Thank you. I'm really pleased
to be here and looking forward to this conversation.
Let's start by hearing a little bit about your
career. You're a published author and an expert
in environmental communication. Tell us about
your work at Plymouth. your students there too.
Thank you. Well, very pleased to be taking part
in this podcast. I mean, my career goes back
really to the 1980s, actually, when I first started
studying the topic of how environmental issues
are covered in the media and how we can improve
communication around environmental issues. And
actually, it was a really interesting time in
the 1980s because it was around the time that
Mrs. Thatcher made her famous green speech. And
suddenly the media started getting interested
in covering environmental issues. And it just
so happened at that point I was beginning my
PhD. And so I had the opportunity to interview
journalists and a whole range of other people,
media specialists in NGOs who wanted to ensure
that the issues were gaining sufficient coverage.
At that point, there were very few people, very
few academics who were researching these issues.
And as I said, it was fortuitous that I happened
to be doing it at that time. And then by the
time you got to the early 1990s, suddenly the
environment wasn't at the top of the agenda.
And we had the economic recession in the early
90s. We also had the war in the Gulf and it kind
of just dropped off the agenda. And what I found
throughout my career in looking at these issues
is that, you know, at certain points, it's very
difficult to keep momentum. And there have been
various. peaks and troughs in coverage of the
environment and also in public attention to environmental
issues as other more pressing issues occur. I
mean, even if you look at COP 23 in Glasgow in
2021, in November, around that time, Ipsos Mori
did a poll which found that The environment was
a top issue that people were saying they were
concerned about. And yet by January, it's fallen
dramatically. And coronavirus and the economy
were the key issues that the public were saying
they were concerned about. So, you know, as I
say, throughout my career, I've found it, you
know. In one way, fascinating, but also very
concerning, you know, because we need to keep
environmental issues and we need to keep net
zero high on the agenda. And it's a real challenge
to do that. Thank you. That's very interesting
in terms of the 1980s because I also remember
I was working in newspapers in the 1980s and
I launched a green page because I thought that
was where the conversation was at. And the green
page did last for quite some time until I was
told by my editor at the time that there wasn't
such interest in green matters and sustainability.
So really interesting to hear that perspective.
So here we are today. We're looking at massive
challenges. as we face climate change. We're
looking at inequality, pandemics, resource pressures.
In fact, we see it on our news every day. It's
the very threat to humanity. So, Alison, in your
view, is there a joined approach now for businesses,
governments and us? That's you and me, all of
us. Talk about a joined up approach. Is that
possible? Well, I certainly think, you know,
we need a joined up. approach to this and currently
we haven't got a joined up approach and I think
in the past there have been huge problems caused
by inconsistent messaging and lack of coordination
you know between government departments different
policy areas not all pulling in the same direction
problem with the lack of clear mission and a
lack of a clear public engagement strategy and
I think those things are absolutely vital if
we are to you know really sort of make progress
because at the moment you know we are falling
behind other European countries we're just simply
not doing enough despite the measures that were
announced. you know, in the budget, which are
obviously very welcome. But, you know, we still
need to really ramp things up and do much more
if we're to actually meet our net zero targets.
And I think, you know, there's obviously a role
for businesses to play a key part in this, but
they need much more direction from the government.
And, you know, in case and incentives as well,
because, you know, in many cases, they're kind
of having to make decisions that kind of go against
their financial interests in the short term.
But obviously in the long term, you know, that
won't be the case. And the public also are absolutely
vital as well to bring along. But, you know,
with the public, we know that there's a huge
amount of concern about climate change and that
goes across all demographics. It's not just young
people, it's older people as well. But information
alone is not sufficient to actually bring about
the kind of scale of change that we actually
need. And so, you know, and also, I think. Looking
at, you know, who is actually making the change
towards net zero. Women in particular, I think,
are and more highly educated people. are more
likely to say that they will play a part in net
zero and are making changes. So, for example,
there's some evidence that EV uptake is higher
amongst women. Women are more likely to switch
to a plant -based or vegetarian diet. And I think
part of the problem is you know, notions of masculinity,
which perhaps, you know, are being challenged
by, you know, some of the behaviour changes that
we need to occur in order to, you know, move
things forward. Thank you. But we're actually
looking at large lifestyle changes, aren't we?
Because when we start to talk about the public's
appetite for those kind of changes, that's very,
you know, it's fascinating to hear about women.
And in fact, we're hoping to do a special podcast
on exactly focusing on women and the role that
women have to play. But in terms of today and
changing our lifestyles, we've talked about governments,
we've talked about business. And as we've said,
climate change is on our news every single day.
How do you really make sure that people are prepared
to change? How much are we prepared to change
and eat less, consume less dairy, eat less meat,
travel less? I mean, we seem to be still flying
all over the world at a whim. And I don't know
what the demographics of that are. But I would
say, and I asked you this question when we were
talking about preparing this podcast, you know,
are we too rich? I mean, who is making the changes
and how do we get there? Well, at the moment,
you know, it's easier for middle class people,
I think, to adopt some of the changes that we
need to adopt to move forward. You know, so it
tends to be middle class people, you know, who
can afford to buy an electric vehicle. more likely
to have a driveway or, you know, somewhere to
leave their car where they can charge their car.
And, you know, there is a danger of, you know,
polarisation occurring. And obviously that is
being stirred up by some lobby groups who, you
know, see their interests being threatened by
move to net zero. So I think it's very difficult,
really, to see how this kind of move could really
kind of broaden out a bit more without more incentives
being offered to those people who, you know.
have the least resources and are most disadvantaged.
And clearly, you know, they shouldn't be overburdened.
They should actually, you know, be given more
incentives to actually make changes to, for example,
their heating at home or whatever it is, or changing
their car. So when we think about some of the
changes that we've already been encouraged to
do over the years, and some of it obviously is
due to legislation, whether it's seatbelt wearing,
obviously, or eating five a day. For example,
that's an encouraged, it's not law, but it's
encouraged. You know, everyone knows that's probably
a good thing to be doing. Recycling, people are
being encouraged to recycle. Not sure if we're
doing it properly. But is it a mix then between
perhaps legislation or public health messages?
How are we going to really encourage that? make
it happen? Well, I don't think we can rely on
the public alone, you know, voluntarily adopting
these measures. I think it was Lancaster University
recently found that 84 % of the public said that
they would be prepared to agree to making substantial
changes. in order to address, you know, climate
change. But actually, when it comes down to supporting
particular measures, that's often a different
matter. So I think, you know, you certainly need
a combination of carrots and sticks. And, you
know, we need to... bring about more regulation,
more taxation. So, you know, interesting if you
look at other countries, Denmark, for example,
have introduced a tax on red meat. You know,
there are various ways that you can do it in
terms of aviation, you know, a frequent flyer,
taxation or levy, I should say. And all those
kinds of measures, I think, you know, can be
effective. They certainly won't be popular. But,
you know, if we're going to make any real progress,
those kind of things are absolutely needed. We
certainly can't rely on, you know, the public
to make small changes here and there without
either being incentivised or. certain regulations
being introduced, you know, to force people to
make particular changes. Because we recently
saw the dreadful flooding instances in Valencia
and we have got climate change on our, as I say,
we've got it on our news every day. Is that enough,
do you think? I mean, are we getting the message,
Alison? Well, I don't think we are getting the
message, no. You know, it almost seems as though
we are sleepwalking into disaster in a way. You
know, you see these images on the screen and,
you know, for a moment they seem shocking, but
then people, I think, quickly move on to the
next thing and it's forgotten. You know, I mean,
there is a danger of... people becoming a bit
kind of desensitized to it as well and what research
indicates is that unless you are personally impacted
by climate change for example if you have a terrible
flood in your village or your town wherever you
live or wherever you know often you still see
it as this thing that's really affecting other
people in other countries and is not really having
any significant impact on your own life okay
and i think it's you know you can bombard people
with as many facts and figures as you like but
that's not necessarily going to change you know
it's actually connecting emotionally with people
that is absolutely key and also i think as well
emphasizing the co -benefits of taking action
you know there are enormous co -benefits um in
terms of health and well -being um you know talking
about things like changing your diet um you know
even not necessarily moving to a plant -based
diet but you know um eating less meat for example
um walking rather than taking the car all the
time It's interesting what you're saying about
facts and figures. Facts and figures, we're always
collating as much as we can versus that feeling.
the way people feel and that emotion and how
you connect to people. So let's turn this around
before we get too gloomy. And let's talk about
your students, because I always think there is
hope in those students, you know, and hope for
the future. Tell me about how your students think,
because you're there every day at Plymouth and
you're meeting these people. How are they engaged
in this debate? And what are you telling them?
Well, yes, students, I think, are generally highly
engaged in the debate and very, very concerned
about the climate crisis. And clearly, you know,
they are the generation that are going to be
the most impacted. I've been recently doing some
research actually with secondary school children
looking at their awareness of climate change.
their experiences of climate education at school.
And it's been quite surprising in a way just
how engaged they are about climate change. And
yet what they're saying is that they feel really
disempowered. change education that they receive
is mainly kind of siloed in gcse geography and
science but they're not really hearing anything
much about climate change in in other lessons
and of course geography is optional anyway so
a lot of children aren't aren't actually hearing
about anything to do with climate change other
than in science and what they also told us was
that it was concentrating on causes and impacts
but not covering solutions which is very concerning
um because you know we know from a whole series
of different studies that you know there's a
lot of anxiety amongst young people about um
you know climate change and unless they're actually,
you know, given messages of hope at school and
shown examples of what actually is working. And,
you know, we are making, you know, despite needing
to go further, we are making progress. And, you
know, there's so many examples, you know, really
inspiring examples that, you know, young people
could be taught about at school and yet they're
not. And, you know, also, I think, The more that
they're sort of engaged with examples at school
relating to their school building, you know,
a separate example, if their school building
is being retrofitted, if they're having solar
panels installed or if they're having an air
source heat pump or ground source heat pump,
there are enormous opportunities there for them
to... you know, get involved and, you know, in
a whole range of different lessons. So, for example,
in maths they could be calculating, you know,
the difference in terms of, you know, the energy
that's being used and that kind of thing. So,
the research that I've been doing is in conjunction
with the British Science Association. And we
launched our report in 2023 at the House of Lords
and have subsequently gone on to make a number
of recommendations about the way in which climate
education in school needs to change. And following
on from that, I'm now doing some work locally.
with a museum in Plymouth called The Box, and
looking at how their project, which is based
very much on a sort of local example of the National
Marine Park here in Plymouth, can be used to
inspire young people to consider different kind
of green careers and role models. They're doing
kind of hands on activities and workshops in
the museum based around different what they call
sort of climate citizens. So that could be somebody
working in a charity to do with the Marine Park
or it might be a scientist or whoever it is.
And they really get into, you know, taking on
that kind of role. trying to find a solution
to a problem in a creative way. That's fascinating.
I'm fortunate through my work here at Salix to...
to go in and visit schools that have undergone
a decarbonisation project. So they've done exactly
as you've said, they've installed energy efficiency
saving measures, which obviously saves on carbon,
but also can save on bills too. So that's heat
pumps, insulation, solar, etc. And the children
are, you're absolutely right, they are very engaged
and very knowledgeable. In my experience, when
I have listened to the children, they don't accept
that this cannot happen. Recently, a school child
said to me, well, because I was asking the question
about what would you, if you were at COP29, what
would you do? What would you say if you were
at that table? And they said, well, we can't
afford not to change. We can't afford not to
do this. And these are from primary school children,
actually. And I know you've been working, obviously,
with secondary school children. So there is a
lot of passion. And I think it's at our, peril
if we ignore those voices so that's the British
Science Association fascinating work going on
there thank you very much Alison for sharing
that now I'm not to want to catch you out in
any way but I have to move on to you personally
I know that you've worked at Monash University
over in Australia which is quite a few air miles
over there but you personally have you made any
significant Well, yes, in terms of diet. And
I've been vegetarian for a long time. I actually,
when I met my husband in the 1980s, he was actually
a vegan at the time, which was very, very rare.
I remember, you know, people being very perplexed
about what to serve him, you know, when he went
to different places. And I was meat eater at
the time when we first met so we compromised
and went vegetarian and then more recently my
husband has changed back to being vegan and I'm
I wouldn't say I'm completely vegan but I'm almost
vegan so not completely and then in terms of
things like you know measures to do with our
house. We've installed solar panels. We've got
battery modules now. So we store up the energy
and then it goes back to the grid, you know,
when there's a surplus of energy. We've got quite
a large garden. So we've been fortunate to be
able to plant trees, have composting, chickens.
We changed our bank to a sustainable bank. And
what we try to do is to walk anywhere, you know,
that's within sort of five miles range. Obviously,
if we're travelling beyond that, then we've got
an electric vehicle, so we use that. But it's
very difficult because I think, you know, certainly
as an academic, you know, sometimes I haven't
actually been to an overseas conference for quite
a long time now. But I certainly used to in the
past go to lots of conferences. And obviously
my role in Monash meant I had to go all the way
to Australia. You know, it's very difficult.
I feel very sort of guilty increasingly, I think,
about that kind of travel. And I still do fly.
I can't, you know, I can't pretend, you know,
but. I certainly do try to limit my travel much
more than I did in the past. And what I find
now with a lot of academic conferences is that
you quite often have an option where you don't
actually have to go to the location, which is
great. And I think particularly, you know, over
the COVID pandemic, people realised that actually
you didn't really need to always attend all these
conferences. So much can be achieved online,
which I think is really good. thing that that
happened that's one of the the benefits i think
exactly that has been good for our planet and
and so many of us you're absolutely right for
work we have to travel academics you you you
you often have as you as you say you don't have
to be there but it's always good face to face
obviously in building those relationships and
doing that research that you do and many of us
now have families in various continents and it's
very hard isn't it to avoid Getting on that plane.
So thank you very much. Some huge lifestyle changes
that you've made to your life personally. So
thank you very much for sharing that. In terms
of your career, it's fascinating to hear about
your work with the schools. But what is next?
You've had a highly successful career to date.
You're a published author, but you're obviously
hugely ambitious. So can you give us a little
bit of a flavour of what next? Well, I've almost
completed editing a new handbook, actually. It's
a Routledge Handbook of Climate Crisis Communication,
which brings together academics from a whole
range of different disciplines, so psychology,
sociology, geography, media and communication
studies, all looking at... some of the challenges
and opportunities involved in communicating the
climate crisis. And that should be coming out,
I think, around sort of May next year. So I'm
excited to actually see that come together because
I've been working on editing it with a co -author
at the LSE for... number of years now really
so it'll be exciting to see the project completed
and I'm going on to be doing more sort of policy
related work around climate education and developing
the work that I mentioned earlier with the box
and what I'm hoping is that we can really sort
of scale up climate education so I think as important
as the work that's being done already in schools
and I'm suggesting that actually we need to embed
climate change right across the curriculum, across
different subject areas. I'm also working on
the topic of media or digital literacy and critical
thinking because I think that's absolutely fundamental
and something that isn't really being covered
on the curriculum at the moment. And particularly
if you look at climate change, one of the barriers,
I think, is the amount of misinformation and
deliberate disinformation that's circulating,
particularly on social media platforms. And you
hear this in all sorts of debates where people
are just not questioning. false information about,
you know, whether it's EV cars or whether it's
switching to a plant based diet, not actually
seeking out reputable sources, but just kind
of repeating, you know, what they see on social
media. And this is being fuelled by some of the
lobby groups whose interests are being challenged
by these very changes. And so I think there certainly
is a need for... much more emphasis on critical
thinking and digital literacy in schools to tackle
this. And, you know, it's not just this problem,
but, you know, the whole series of other social
issues, you know, which are being affected by
this. And especially with the rise of artificial
intelligence as well. Thank you. It makes it
even more pressing. I wondered when that was
going to come into the conversation, artificial
intelligence, of course, as well. But there's
so much food for thought there. Really interesting
when you're talking about the facts and the figures,
which are so key and so important because we've
got challenging net zero targets to meet versus
the feelings and making people really engaged
in this whole debate. I don't like to think we're
sleepwalking into a disaster, but that is what
you said. Thank you for bringing all that in,
because, of course, you're working very heavily
with schools and young people and hopefully integrating
more of the net zero climate change into the
curriculum. And I would love to go and visit
the box in Plymouth, which you've mentioned.
I've made a note of that. Thank you very much
to Alison. Thank you today, providing such insight
as part of our decarbonisation dialogue. There
can be no doubt that climate change is the biggest
challenge of our time. Today, we must reduce
greenhouse gas emissions to slow global warming.
Today, we must act for tomorrow, adjusting our
lifestyles to current and future impacts of climate
change. Today, we must use our collective wisdom
to deliver on our climate commitments. And today,
we must work for tomorrow's world. So thank you
very much to Alison Anderson. Thank you. Thank
you. It's been a pleasure. You've been listening
to the Decarbonisation Dialogue, a podcast from
Salix. For more information about our work and
to find more content, please visit salixfinance
.co .uk forward slash podcasts